Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Edelman and this is psychoactive, a production
Speaker 1: of I heart radio and protozoa pictures. psychoactive is the
Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs, but any
Speaker 1: views expressed here do not represent those of my heart media,
Speaker 1: protozoa pictures or their executives and employees. Indeed, as an
Speaker 1: inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not even
Speaker 1: represent my own, and nothing contained in this show should
Speaker 1: be used his medical advice or encouragement to use any
Speaker 1: type of drugs. Hello, psychoactive listeners, so today we're bringing
Speaker 1: you a bonus episode. A few weeks ago I was
Speaker 1: on somebody else's podcast. It was the actress and Comedian
Speaker 1: Chelsea Handler. Her podcast is called Dear Chelsea, and she
Speaker 1: asked me all sorts of questions about drugs, and then
Speaker 1: we took turns answering questions from her audience. I'm sure
Speaker 1: you're really going to enjoy this. Hi everybody. While I'm
Speaker 1: taking the month of September off of doing stand up,
Speaker 1: I return on October one to complete my vaccinated and
Speaker 1: Horny tour. October, November and December. I have new dates up.
Speaker 1: I kick it off in Saratoga, California, and I'm coming
Speaker 1: to all parts of California, Long Beach, Bakersfield. I'm going
Speaker 1: to Niagara Falls, Tucson, Arizona, Colorado, Minneapolis, San Diego, reading,
Speaker 1: Pennsylvania and Baltimore, Maryland, just to name a few. There's
Speaker 1: also some Floridian dates in there, since this will be
Speaker 1: my last year that I'm able to go inside the
Speaker 1: state of Florida. SO CHECK OUT CHELSEA HANDLER DOT COM
Speaker 1: for more stand up dates for my vaccinated in Horny tour.
Speaker 1: These are my last dates. Hi, Catherine, how are you?
Speaker 1: I'm so good. I'm here in L A and it's
Speaker 1: going to be a hundred and four this weekend. I
Speaker 1: left l a because I don't like that kind of
Speaker 1: temperature and but I'm going to see you in my
Speaker 1: orcas soon. Catherine and I are going on vacation together
Speaker 1: with Brad. We're going to become a throuple. We're gonna
Speaker 1: open up their relationship. That wouldn't be weird. You're welcome in.
Speaker 1: We're really good at snuggling and after care. I was
Speaker 1: just at a lunch. I'm in New York City this
Speaker 1: week because I'm here to watch the US Open, because
Speaker 1: I wanted to watch Serena play for the last time,
Speaker 1: so I went to the first night where she fucking won,
Speaker 1: and it was so special. I just love that energy.
Speaker 1: I love watching people win. Yes, she came out in
Speaker 1: like a glittery wrote like tape, like a queen. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she had six layers to signify all of the I
Speaker 1: guess six US opens. She had one and she played
Speaker 1: this girl whose name, God, that's terrible, I can't remember.
Speaker 1: But the girl was so good. It's so funny to
Speaker 1: watch Serena play because, like her opponents are always just
Speaker 1: running back and forth with such athleticism and Serena just
Speaker 1: stands there. She's just like here, I'll return the ball
Speaker 1: from over here, like I'm not running anywhere. It's pretty
Speaker 1: amazing to watch her play. She's such a she's a beast.
Speaker 1: It's always amazing to see somebody who's us at the
Speaker 1: top of their game, whether it's sports, whether it's comedy,
Speaker 1: whether it's whatever it is. It's so fascinating to watch
Speaker 1: somebody WHO's at the top of their yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: love it. I love the whole vibe of like tennis,
Speaker 1: Grand Slams, like I've been to Wimbledon I think I've been.
Speaker 1: I think that's probably it. Wimbledon and the U S
Speaker 1: hope and I've been to but it's just such a vibe,
Speaker 1: you know, like you can drink. You Watch sports like
Speaker 1: it's up close. You can see everything, no matter where
Speaker 1: you're sitting in the stadium. You're just watching the court,
Speaker 1: you know. It's not like a concert. We have to
Speaker 1: watch on one of these big screens. And the US
Speaker 1: Open is the biggest one out of the Grand Slams.
Speaker 1: It's it holds the most seats and so it's massive
Speaker 1: and it's just it's yeah, my best friend, Bitchy, she's
Speaker 1: my sports friends. She knows. She's always got in roads
Speaker 1: to any sporting event, so we always get hooked up. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm having a great time and I'm and then I'm
Speaker 1: going to see you in my Orca. Yeah, and you've
Speaker 1: been saying all kinds of friends this week. I know
Speaker 1: because we're making plans last week when, Oh my God,
Speaker 1: I know. I'm looking at my calendar. I'm like, Fun,
Speaker 1: what the Fund is this? We have a podcast recording
Speaker 1: a two this interrupts my lunch and mushroom at day.
Speaker 1: I was so sorry to interrupt last night, though, I
Speaker 1: had the most romantic night by myself. I went to
Speaker 1: first I got up and I worked out for two
Speaker 1: hours because I shot this campaign and I had to
Speaker 1: really get it together for well one week. That's how
Speaker 1: I get it together, and then I just went off.
Speaker 1: Since then, I've gained six pounds and I am just
Speaker 1: cruising through Manhattan and I'm walking everywhere. Yesterday I met
Speaker 1: my sister. I walked forty five minutes. I met her
Speaker 1: for launch. Then my friend pitchy came, then I walked
Speaker 1: all the way back and then I walked back downtown.
Speaker 1: I got in seven twenty seven thousand steps yesterday and
Speaker 1: my goal is just too I love New York City
Speaker 1: for that reason. There's nowhere. I mean, I just wish
Speaker 1: I lived in a city that was walkable, not in
Speaker 1: Los Angeles. Los Angeles definitely is not. It's barely drivable. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but where else have you been? You've been all over
Speaker 1: the place. Oh my gosh, I just got back from
Speaker 1: Greece and Vancouver Island. I went from gree to Vancouver Island.
Speaker 1: Warmed very cold, it sounds like. Yeah, well, it wasn't
Speaker 1: very cold on Vancouver Island. Greece was beautiful. I went
Speaker 1: to an island called left cotta, which I've never been to,
Speaker 1: with a bunch of friends. We just got on a
Speaker 1: boat every day and went to a different beautiful restaurant
Speaker 1: and drank white wine and ate Greek Salads and fish,
Speaker 1: and I could not have been happier. I actually was
Speaker 1: able to protect my face from the sun with this
Speaker 1: new hat I got. So it was like a Dick,
Speaker 1: but I like at least my skin is not burned.
Speaker 1: And Yeah, I was on vacation with lots of different
Speaker 1: new people and some children, so you know how that goes. Yes,
Speaker 1: I saw your instant stories with one particular who I
Speaker 1: think was your favorite. Oh Yeah, she's my favorite. The
Speaker 1: ones who can't really form sentences are my favorites, you know,
Speaker 1: like I like when they're beginning to talk but they
Speaker 1: haven't really gotten the hamstered it. Yeah, that's when they
Speaker 1: get a full personality. Is when I start to lose issuest. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the like Gibber Jabber stage where they'll just like tell
Speaker 1: you all about their day and total like jabbery English
Speaker 1: is my favorite. I had this four year old girl,
Speaker 1: Mia who was just she was so she was like
Speaker 1: a seven year old. So it was so funny. I'd
Speaker 1: be like, okay, let's play a game where we count
Speaker 1: all the boats that are moving in the ocean. She's
Speaker 1: like that sounds silly. I've got another game. I'm like,
Speaker 1: Oh my God, she said, I don't think so. She
Speaker 1: was just so funny, just like and this old British like.
Speaker 1: She sounded like an old British man. She sounded like
Speaker 1: this is doubt fire. I love that. Traveling with children
Speaker 1: is another thing. You got us to have your own
Speaker 1: timeline involved people. I just don't understand how people do it,
Speaker 1: how they have so many children and then they have
Speaker 1: to pack up their car and they have to put
Speaker 1: in the baby viorn and their cookies and their whatever bottle,
Speaker 1: all of it. And at every airport all you ever
Speaker 1: see is parents taking their sippy cups and downing the
Speaker 1: liquid in the sippy cups because the kids haven't finished it.
Speaker 1: Like I was at Heathrow on a layover. Oh, I
Speaker 1: was in London too. I was at Heathrow and he
Speaker 1: throws like the strictest airport in terms of like liquids
Speaker 1: and fluids. So basically everyone who came through just had
Speaker 1: to sit there in front of the T S A
Speaker 1: agent drinking their thermis because no one had, you know,
Speaker 1: emptied out their thermis, and I'm like, how do people
Speaker 1: not fucking know about emptying out their thermis at this point?
Speaker 1: How do they not even doing this? For a minute now,
Speaker 1: it's been since yes, oh my gosh. Yeah, I just
Speaker 1: don't think I could have a kid and be the
Speaker 1: sort of mom who like licks their kids pacifier to
Speaker 1: clean it before giving it to them or like like parents. Man,
Speaker 1: I have a lot of respect, but I can't do
Speaker 1: all that gross stuff. No, no, it's all. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: too much. It's just never ending and some people make
Speaker 1: it look easy and I respect that, because it's not easy.
Speaker 1: Some people with many nannies. We have a very special
Speaker 1: guest today. His name is Ethan Niedelman and he is
Speaker 1: the former Princeton professor who built a political movement to
Speaker 1: legalize marijuana, roll at the drug war and treat drugs
Speaker 1: as a health issue, not a criminal one. He is
Speaker 1: now the host of the podcast psychoactive about all things drugs,
Speaker 1: now in a second season, and obviously I would like
Speaker 1: to announce to all my customers this disclaimer that I
Speaker 1: am not a doctor I play one on a podcast
Speaker 1: that I would never ever encourage anybody to do drugs.
Speaker 1: This isn't medical advice, this is my own personal therapy. Ethan. Hi,
Speaker 1: it's so nice to have you. Well, it's a pleasure
Speaker 1: to be on your show, Chelsea. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Oh well, thank you. Thanks for being here, and you
Speaker 1: know you've spoken to Catherine before. Yeah, hi, okay, so
Speaker 1: I know you are a huge proponent of the legalization
Speaker 1: of marijuana and basically I mean all drug use, right,
Speaker 1: or do you want to get specific about what drugs
Speaker 1: you are for and what drugs you're against? Well, I mean,
Speaker 1: let me be very specific. I mean most of my
Speaker 1: life was about working to legalize marijuana and to end
Speaker 1: the war on drugs. So that's where and I was
Speaker 1: never called myself prom a want, although my personal life,
Speaker 1: I'd say marijuana and I have had a great relationship
Speaker 1: for a very long time. Amen to that. But when
Speaker 1: it comes to the other drugs, you know I'm sort
Speaker 1: of a Merril Wand and Psychedelic exceptionalist and that those
Speaker 1: are the drugs that have been good in my life
Speaker 1: and the other ones are not so crazy about. But
Speaker 1: the principle that nobody should be punished for whatever drugs
Speaker 1: they put in their body if they don't hear anybody else.
Speaker 1: I think that's the core principle we have to remember,
Speaker 1: so that even if you love, we love, psychedology don't
Speaker 1: like all the other sorts of things, it doesn't mean
Speaker 1: that other people should get punished simply for using those things. Right, absolutely.
Speaker 1: And so what are your feeling about other sort of narcotics?
Speaker 1: I mean, you're into psychedelics and so I assume that
Speaker 1: encompasses all of all psychedelics. PSILOCYBIN. Well, you know, I
Speaker 1: haven't tried all of them yet, right. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: mushrooms have been my kind of go to one for
Speaker 1: a very long time. AYAHUASCA has been good. I've done
Speaker 1: Mescaland once or twice I've tried a few others. I
Speaker 1: did two CEB M Dama, not really a PSYCHEDELIC, but
Speaker 1: that one was very nice in my life, although it
Speaker 1: doesn't really work for me anymore. But when it comes
Speaker 1: to the opioids, I mean no, I just think they're
Speaker 1: useful for pain and that one needs to be very
Speaker 1: careful when you're using them. But I do know people
Speaker 1: who use psyche you know who use opioids and have
Speaker 1: led very successful lives even when using them regularly. So
Speaker 1: I'm just it's always just very important that we not
Speaker 1: demonize other people, even for using drugs that are more
Speaker 1: dangerous and even like cocaine. Like I've never really liked
Speaker 1: cocaine that much. Mean for me like having cocaine. It's
Speaker 1: like drinking too much coffee and having post nasal drip right.
Speaker 1: So it's never been a thing for me. I have
Speaker 1: friends who love cocaine. I've had friends who got in
Speaker 1: trouble with cocaine. I've had friends who just play with it.
Speaker 1: So I'm not a big Fan. I don't think it
Speaker 1: brings out the best in people. You know, I wouldn't
Speaker 1: want people I really care about getting into cocaine too much,
Speaker 1: but it still means I don't like the law of
Speaker 1: punishing anybody for using that stuff. M So, when you
Speaker 1: said you used M D m a but it stopped
Speaker 1: working for you, what do you mean by that, because
Speaker 1: I've heard that before from people. Well, I'll tell you.
Speaker 1: I mean. You know, Chelsea, when I first started using
Speaker 1: early thirties, it was in the context of my divorce.
Speaker 1: I think it helped us land up on a softer
Speaker 1: landing and I've used it in romantic relationships since in
Speaker 1: my thirties and forties and it was good with friends
Speaker 1: and I've been to raise but around I'm now sixty five,
Speaker 1: around the time I hit my early fifties, I found
Speaker 1: that the upside started waning and the downside started increasing
Speaker 1: and I started having the feeling like my body was
Speaker 1: telling me, don't put this in you, and so I
Speaker 1: really miss it. I mean it was it served a
Speaker 1: valuable purpose for me in terms, especially in romantic relationships,
Speaker 1: in terms of being able to deal with issues and
Speaker 1: have communications and otherwise difficult to do. Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1: It is helpful in relationships if you can have conversations,
Speaker 1: important conversations, right. Have you used it in that way? No,
Speaker 1: I haven't. I've only used it, and I mean that's
Speaker 1: a good idea, though. I've only used it to like
Speaker 1: have a good time, you know, M D M a.
Speaker 1: That is, but no, I haven't. I'd recommend it. I
Speaker 1: mean it's just because it gives people the ability both
Speaker 1: to listen it more deeply than they normally worried, dissolves
Speaker 1: the defenses, and also to speak in a way that's
Speaker 1: more and pathic in a way. And so I think
Speaker 1: you know when it was first kind of when it's
Speaker 1: uses were first kind of rediscovered, the seventies, it was
Speaker 1: known as the couple's therapy drug and it was most
Speaker 1: famous for that type of use. And now, when we
Speaker 1: see it emerging for use with respect to PTSD and
Speaker 1: things like that, it really has a very valuable role
Speaker 1: to play. So I strongly encourage it. As long as
Speaker 1: it worked well for you. I should also say that
Speaker 1: I think when it comes to stopping, I know a
Speaker 1: lot more guys who says it doesn't work for me anymore,
Speaker 1: whereas women seem to get this is no no research
Speaker 1: on this, just impressionistic. Women seem to get more value
Speaker 1: of it for a longer time. Interesting. And what about
Speaker 1: tell me a little bit about mescaline. I've never had
Speaker 1: any experience with mescaline either. I don't think so. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, you can get it in the refined version,
Speaker 1: which is the way I did it. That other two
Speaker 1: ways is it comes from the Peyote Cactus, which is
Speaker 1: the one that's used in indigenous ceremonies, native American church.
Speaker 1: And now people are mostly people are being discouraged from
Speaker 1: using payote because there's a limited apply and you don't
Speaker 1: want to deprive native American church members and indigenous peoples
Speaker 1: of having access to it. But there's a plant called
Speaker 1: San Pedro which is also a source of Mescalin. So
Speaker 1: I would say I did it. The one time I
Speaker 1: did it I found that a lot like a mushroom experience.
Speaker 1: It can be maybe a little bit longer. It was
Speaker 1: before the invention of LSD in the forties or just
Speaker 1: you know, a creation of LSD in the forties. It
Speaker 1: was the most popular of the psychedelics. Like I just
Speaker 1: interviewed somebody on my podcasts, like go active Mike J
Speaker 1: wrote a wonderful history of this whole thing. Michael Pollen,
Speaker 1: who has written that wonderful book changed and how to
Speaker 1: change your mind about psychedelics. He has a new book
Speaker 1: where he talks about his mescaline news. So I would
Speaker 1: say it's worth trying. Some people may prefer it to
Speaker 1: LSD or two mushrooms. I don't think it's radically different though. Okay,
Speaker 1: so it's in that same family. And what about your experience?
Speaker 1: You said Iowaska. Have you done that multiple times? You know,
Speaker 1: I did it for the first time about twenty years ago.
Speaker 1: I had a great experience. Then I did it a
Speaker 1: few years later in the context of a religious ceremony,
Speaker 1: something the Brazilian church called Santo dime, although I did
Speaker 1: it in a loft in New York, but in that modality.
Speaker 1: And then since that time I haven't really done the
Speaker 1: full blowing ones. I've been at gatherings with a sort
Speaker 1: of guide where they have low dose Ayahuasca mixed in
Speaker 1: with other things. I've never gone down all South America
Speaker 1: to do it in the jungle. I saw you did
Speaker 1: that for the TV show you did on Netflix. I
Speaker 1: know a lot of people have done it that way.
Speaker 1: So it's not been a drug I've gone back to
Speaker 1: many times, although I would definitely do it again. I
Speaker 1: would definitely do it again. You know, I'm one of
Speaker 1: the few people, like most people, throw up when they
Speaker 1: do it, you know, and you're supposed to throw up
Speaker 1: because it helps to purge, but I didn't throw up.
Speaker 1: I didn't throw up either. Oh No, I did throw up. Sorry,
Speaker 1: I did. Yeah, I thought you were talking about the
Speaker 1: other outlet, because they say you can sometimes, you know,
Speaker 1: go to the back to with respect to that second time,
Speaker 1: I did it. Nothing happened during the ceremony, but in
Speaker 1: the following days that other outlet was quite active. Oh well,
Speaker 1: that's good to know. Thank you for filling me in. Yeah, sure.
Speaker 1: Do you find age at all to be a prohibitor
Speaker 1: in any of these drugs we're talking about? You don't.
Speaker 1: I'll tell you I think. First of as I say,
Speaker 1: as I've got an older m DMA is not really
Speaker 1: doing it for me. Marijuana continues to be my friend
Speaker 1: after all these years. I think if you don't have
Speaker 1: issues like, for example, I don't have any. I'm very
Speaker 1: healthy for my age, so I don't worry about cardiovasculate issues.
Speaker 1: If you feel vulnerable Cardiovastro Y, you have to be
Speaker 1: careful with taking a drug that could really, you know,
Speaker 1: get your heart going in a serious way. I've never
Speaker 1: been on antidepressants, but if you are, you know you
Speaker 1: can't be an antidepressants and be doing Ayahuasca because, as
Speaker 1: I've got, a toxic combination like. One thing I've gotten
Speaker 1: into in recent years is doing LSD, not at the
Speaker 1: macro dose, with the heroic dose, the big dose, and
Speaker 1: and not so much at the micro dose, the five
Speaker 1: or ten micrograms, but doing what I would call a
Speaker 1: mini dose of like twenty or thirty micrograms, which is
Speaker 1: enough to make you feel you're under the influence of something,
Speaker 1: but you're not really having any visions, you're not way
Speaker 1: out there, and I will say that the following day
Speaker 1: I just feel exhausted and I think that maybe aging,
Speaker 1: but you know, there are people who just keep doing
Speaker 1: it into their eighties and older. I mean my view
Speaker 1: on the psychedelics has always been there kind of wasted
Speaker 1: on the young, and I tend to think about them.
Speaker 1: I let's give it. Gave a speech and I said,
Speaker 1: you know, I think about doing psychedelics the way I
Speaker 1: think about Ya'm keep poor. You know, I'm Jewish. I
Speaker 1: grew up religious. Right now and not that religious, but
Speaker 1: you know, once a year yon't keep poor fast, twenty
Speaker 1: five hours, no food, no water, because I think it's
Speaker 1: a good thing for getting more in touch with that
Speaker 1: spiritual side. And I think the same thing with psychedelics
Speaker 1: that a lot of times people, you know, in the forties, fifties, sixties,
Speaker 1: seventy say, Oh, I did that when I was young.
Speaker 1: But my view is this a good thing to keep
Speaker 1: coming back to at least once a year. It's a
Speaker 1: it's good for stirring up the emotional sediment, the psychological
Speaker 1: sediment that builds up as we get older, and I
Speaker 1: think the reason that people get scared of it when
Speaker 1: they get older is because it does mean to ring
Speaker 1: up that emotional sentiment. It does mean coming to grips
Speaker 1: with things, compromises you made in life, things you've had
Speaker 1: to settle for. But I actually think it's a healthy thing, spiritually,
Speaker 1: emotionally and probably even physically, to keep doing it as
Speaker 1: long as one feels physically able. Wow, well, that's great.
Speaker 1: I love to hear that because I always feel like you,
Speaker 1: at a certain point you have to stop the drugs,
Speaker 1: and I think what you're saying is quite the opposite.
Speaker 1: As long as you're continually evolving and exploring, there's no
Speaker 1: reason to stop unless you know you have some health limitations.
Speaker 1: Exactly exactly, and I seem to try to overcome those
Speaker 1: fears that happen as we get over. So many of
Speaker 1: my friends who used to do it with me back
Speaker 1: in the day now they're worried about it. They're scared
Speaker 1: about it, although the truth being that with all the
Speaker 1: same able media about psychedelics. Now, with Michael Collin's book
Speaker 1: and all the other sorts of things, more and more
Speaker 1: people are expressing interest in doing it who either haven't
Speaker 1: done it in many decades or never did it, and
Speaker 1: I think that's an encouraging sign. You know, I mean
Speaker 1: even with marijuana, if you think about it, I remember
Speaker 1: when we started legal marijuana, first for medical and then
Speaker 1: more broadly in the various states with all the ballot initiatives,
Speaker 1: and people would say you just you watch, adolescent use
Speaker 1: is gonna Skyrocket, and my response to them would be,
Speaker 1: I don't think so, because teenagers already have easy availability
Speaker 1: in marijuana and we're not legalizing it for them. So
Speaker 1: why is it gonna go up so much? And I
Speaker 1: said the real increase in use is gonna be among
Speaker 1: people in their fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties and nineties. And
Speaker 1: I'll tell you. You know, five, ten years since we
Speaker 1: started legalizing marijuana or in states around the country, there's
Speaker 1: been virtually no jump in adolescent marijuana use, which would
Speaker 1: be something you'd worry about. But meanwhile among people like
Speaker 1: you know, people in their sixties seventies, there like a
Speaker 1: quadrupling of us because people are finding it valuable. They're
Speaker 1: finding it, you know, that they find they prefer to alcohol,
Speaker 1: they find it helps with sleep or aches and pains,
Speaker 1: or or maybe it helps to spice up a sexual
Speaker 1: relationship with the person you've been married to for decades, right.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's got all these sorts of benefits, and
Speaker 1: so I think the benefits of psychoactive us and especially
Speaker 1: on it's like cannabis and Psychedelics, I think they're underestimated
Speaker 1: in terms of being positively connected with healthy aging. Do
Speaker 1: you think that the dosage is important, as you aged?
Speaker 1: I mean because the micro docing is really what everybody's
Speaker 1: on about now, and guided journeys with whatever drug of choice,
Speaker 1: whether it's a micro dose of LSD or Psilocybin or ketamine.
Speaker 1: Do you think that that has an impact? Well, it's
Speaker 1: so hard to know. I mean with micro docing, some
Speaker 1: people have claimed it's little more than a placebo and
Speaker 1: other people have claimed released significant benefit from microdocing. Usually
Speaker 1: means taking between a tenth to the Twentie of the
Speaker 1: dose that would normally result in a psychedelic trip, and
Speaker 1: so I would say the microdocing thing is worth trying.
Speaker 1: It does not appear to be much risk associated with it,
Speaker 1: although there's not long term studies on it, and that
Speaker 1: can evolve. Doing it with LSD, with mushrooms, it can
Speaker 1: even be done with Ayahuasco or even with I've even
Speaker 1: heard about microdocing Iby game, which is a very powerful
Speaker 1: psychedelic out of West Africa from the Aboga plant that,
Speaker 1: you know, people have found great results in curing addiction.
Speaker 1: But I'm a little scared to try with marijuana. Some
Speaker 1: people find that as they get older that the brain
Speaker 1: changes in a way and so that you need less
Speaker 1: to get high. So I think it's a matter of
Speaker 1: just being attentive to what works and and look hood
Speaker 1: for people use it differently. I know people. I know people, Billionaires,
Speaker 1: enormously successful people. Every night, you know, they'll take a
Speaker 1: couple of puffs off a joint, watch late night TV
Speaker 1: and go to sleep, and they've been doing that for decades.
Speaker 1: I know brilliant academics and intellectuals who've been using marijuana,
Speaker 1: including for creative purposes. In my case, I don't do
Speaker 1: marijuana daily, you know. I smoke it periodically with friends
Speaker 1: or my partner or something like that, and and then edible.
Speaker 1: I'm getting into edibles more frequently. In fact, for me,
Speaker 1: part of my healthy aging process is once a week
Speaker 1: when I'm in New York, I take ten doll of
Speaker 1: ams of edible thhc, usually in a nice chocolate bar,
Speaker 1: grab my headphones and I go down and get a
Speaker 1: multi hour massage and I'm just floating and Mari Wanta
Speaker 1: helps me get into my body. So I think it's
Speaker 1: actually when you're using any psychoactive drugs, the key thing
Speaker 1: is to be using it consciously, not to be using
Speaker 1: it unconsciously and not to just be using it habitually
Speaker 1: and not to be using it just in his escapest
Speaker 1: way is to use it consciously, to say this is
Speaker 1: a moment or a thing I'm doing where I think
Speaker 1: actually using this substance when hands what I'm intending to
Speaker 1: do or wanting to do right now. The circling back
Speaker 1: real quick to your m d m a experience with
Speaker 1: your ex wife. You said that that helps with issues
Speaker 1: in your marriage to have conversations while taking that. I
Speaker 1: have heard that before, but not really the way that
Speaker 1: you said it, because the dosage would have an impact
Speaker 1: on your being able to actually have a conversation like
Speaker 1: that in a serious nature, right, rather than just not
Speaker 1: not really chose, because you know, with M D M
Speaker 1: May is pretty standard that people will do between a
Speaker 1: hundred and a hundred fifty milligrams. And so when you're
Speaker 1: doing M D M A, you know nobody's hallucinating. It's
Speaker 1: not a psychedelic experience they call the drug. Used to
Speaker 1: be called it in pathoging because it helps to open
Speaker 1: up your heart. In fact, at some point the nickname
Speaker 1: was originally gonna be like something like empathy, but people realize,
Speaker 1: you know, who wants to market a druggle empathy? There's
Speaker 1: not a big market for empathy. Let's call it ecstasy,
Speaker 1: and so ecstasy became the nickname for M D M a.
Speaker 1: But I think the key thing is that when the
Speaker 1: drug comes on and it's two people and you're in
Speaker 1: a relationship, the ability to process stuff, to process things
Speaker 1: that have been bugging one or the other, to talk
Speaker 1: about them in a respectful way, an empathic way. It
Speaker 1: basically causes defenses to melt in a way, and I
Speaker 1: think that's it's great with with with my ex wife,
Speaker 1: you know, we were in a very difficult spot, but
Speaker 1: we did it together and we're able to talk and
Speaker 1: we actually thought for a while, as did our marriage
Speaker 1: counselor that Oh my God, our marriage is gonna be
Speaker 1: saved here. And in the end, you know, it wasn't enough,
Speaker 1: but I do think we landed up with a safer
Speaker 1: landing and became wonderful co parents and friends thereafter and
Speaker 1: subsequent relationships. You know, it was, it's always been valuable
Speaker 1: in terms of dealing with the stuff that builds begins
Speaker 1: to build up in a relationship, that that needs to
Speaker 1: get processed, that needs to get talked about. So I
Speaker 1: think just being there quiet place, have that conversation and,
Speaker 1: while you're in the conversation, remembering that it's not the
Speaker 1: kind of drug you can keep using over and over
Speaker 1: and over and over over again. If the idea is
Speaker 1: to as you're doing it and as you're having this heartfelt, honest,
Speaker 1: understanding and pathet conversation, to be thinking about ways in
Speaker 1: which you can get back to that spot the next
Speaker 1: day and the next week and the next month without
Speaker 1: having to use the drug repeatedly. Right, it's good to
Speaker 1: come back and use it occasionally. I'm talking about using
Speaker 1: it three or four or five times a year, not
Speaker 1: using it weekly, and never mind daily or something like that,
Speaker 1: and it kind of deplete you right of your Serotonin.
Speaker 1: If you think about you know PROZAC, they both act
Speaker 1: on the Serotonin level. That essentially PROZAC is a mattress
Speaker 1: and M D M A is a trampoline. And so
Speaker 1: oftentimes the next day people can feel a bit depleted,
Speaker 1: although I'll tell you, the first time I did it,
Speaker 1: I felt great the next day. Yeah, I always feel
Speaker 1: it the next day in my system, in a good way,
Speaker 1: not a bad way, in a good way. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: that's that's great. That's great. I think. If I have
Speaker 1: found this is just, once again, anecdotal, when I would
Speaker 1: do with friends and the next day we all jump
Speaker 1: on the plane's to go back home. I noticed that
Speaker 1: a surprising number as we get a cold and we
Speaker 1: get thick in the following days. So I think it's
Speaker 1: it's good to understand that your system M to maybe
Speaker 1: somewhat compromised the following day and just take it easy
Speaker 1: and like oft time telling you that people don't do
Speaker 1: it on a Sunday, do it on a Saturday. Make
Speaker 1: sure you have a day to take off between the
Speaker 1: day you take it and the day you're back and work,
Speaker 1: because what I find is that it melts your defenses
Speaker 1: and the defenses don't just jump right back up. So
Speaker 1: to throw yourself right back into work the next day
Speaker 1: when your defenses are still kind of down, you know,
Speaker 1: and ships flying at you in the work environment, you're
Speaker 1: not quite ready to deal with it. You need that
Speaker 1: recovery time, that at least a day of recovery time
Speaker 1: after you do it. Yeah, and also it's good to
Speaker 1: take be twelve before doing it and after doing it
Speaker 1: to help with that kind of they call it like
Speaker 1: suicide Tuesday. It's not suicide. Right, suicide? I don't know.
Speaker 1: It's usually two days after you take it that some
Speaker 1: people can have like a depressive episode. Right. This doesn't
Speaker 1: happen to everybody, but people can. It can happen. So
Speaker 1: it's always good to take B twelve. Okay. Well, Ethan,
Speaker 1: we're excited you're here today. We have a show where
Speaker 1: we have people call in for advice. So you're going
Speaker 1: to be our guest and Katherine's going to give us
Speaker 1: the low down. But first we're going to take a break, right, Catherine? Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're gonna take a quick break for an ad and
Speaker 1: we'll be right back with some colors. Okay, and we're
Speaker 1: back pastic. Well, we have really just all drug questions today.
Speaker 1: So what a nice what a nice episode this is
Speaker 1: going to be. It feels so warm and fuzzy. Yes,
Speaker 1: I mean, I do have to I do have to
Speaker 1: preface this with I am a baby drug user. I
Speaker 1: have not really tried a whole lot of things. Haven't
Speaker 1: tried mushrooms that sort of thing. Have minimally tried marijuana.
Speaker 1: Just wait till you come to my Katherine. Don't worry,
Speaker 1: just wait. You have so much to look forward and
Speaker 1: with N D N A I'm oftentimes most envious. I
Speaker 1: call them the N D M A virgins because if
Speaker 1: you've never done it before, the first time is oftentimes
Speaker 1: the best ever. So I'm kind of excited. I do
Speaker 1: have to say I won the second place prize in
Speaker 1: the dare essay writing competition in fifth grade, but second
Speaker 1: place was better than first place because she got like
Speaker 1: a tour of the police department and I got a
Speaker 1: pizza party. So yeah, seriously, hello, prizes are in the
Speaker 1: long order for that contest. Exactly, exactly. So our first
Speaker 1: question comes from Jamie. She says Chelsea, you were talking
Speaker 1: about cbd today when I was listening to Glennon's episode.
Speaker 1: I've tried many CBD products and I don't ever feel
Speaker 1: any effect. Can you recommend a specific amount or brand
Speaker 1: so I can feel the effects? I try to pop
Speaker 1: Brownie ones and it threw me into a terrible panic attack.
Speaker 1: I don't want to feel bad again. I just want
Speaker 1: to feel calm and sleep. Thanks, Jamie. Well, CBD. If
Speaker 1: you're not feeling anything, I would say not to be
Speaker 1: opposed to adding a little th HC ratio to it.
Speaker 1: I mean if you're taking C I don't really feel
Speaker 1: CBD when I take that by itself either. I'd usually
Speaker 1: take that for when I'm skiing, for pain management for
Speaker 1: my knee. But I would say to throw in a
Speaker 1: little th HC, like you don't you know? It could
Speaker 1: be like two point five milligrams of th HC against
Speaker 1: a higher percentage or higher ratio of CB D for
Speaker 1: a little bit more of a buzz to help you
Speaker 1: so you can actually feel it without overdoing it. Ethan,
Speaker 1: what are your thoughts on this matter? Yeah, I really no,
Speaker 1: I mean I do do CBD. All this stuff about
Speaker 1: the rub bombs and this and that and it drops.
Speaker 1: There's not a lot of evidence out there about how
Speaker 1: using it in that form is actually helpful and it's
Speaker 1: usually not psychoactive. There are studies that show that CBD
Speaker 1: has been helpful in some very serious medical conditions, but
Speaker 1: a lot of it's been hype. It's hard to say.
Speaker 1: Now there is a website out there called project CBD,
Speaker 1: a guy named Martin Lee who I think it's one
Speaker 1: of the most honorable you know. I don't think he's
Speaker 1: taken money from anyone company to promote one or the other.
Speaker 1: So I keep your eye on that project CBD website
Speaker 1: and they may provide some guidance about what are the
Speaker 1: more reliable or less reliable both brands and ways of
Speaker 1: taking it or not taking it. The idea that Chelsea
Speaker 1: said about combining it with T hd and small amounts.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the plant produces the marijuana plant
Speaker 1: produces both th HC and CBD, and so that's why
Speaker 1: you see a lot of the edibles. Sometimes we'll have
Speaker 1: a t HC CBD combination. I think it's generally a
Speaker 1: good idea to use th HC with some CBD. Sometimes
Speaker 1: people have issues the marijuana an anxiety may find that
Speaker 1: if you're using thhd with no CBD in it, it
Speaker 1: may exacerbate the anxiety because CBD is supposed to be
Speaker 1: an anti anxiety drug. So I'd say no fantastic information
Speaker 1: out there, but you can dig around and try to
Speaker 1: use the drugs in combination. And what's the name of
Speaker 1: that website again? I think it's called project CBD, or
Speaker 1: just Google Martin Lee CBD, which is what I just did. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I like the idea of combining it. There
Speaker 1: was a time when I was using a lot of CBD.
Speaker 1: I also didn't really feel anything. But Brad, my husband,
Speaker 1: and I went to the beach and I had been
Speaker 1: using like a CBD vape pretty heavily that day and
Speaker 1: we decided like okay, we're gonna like take a couple
Speaker 1: of hits of this very strong joint that we got
Speaker 1: as a as a wedding favor at my brother Ethan's wedding,
Speaker 1: and we both took one hit and we're just I mean,
Speaker 1: it was beyond it was way too much. It was super,
Speaker 1: super strong and usually when I have too much marijuana
Speaker 1: I get very like unhappy panicky. It activates all that
Speaker 1: stuff for me, but since I'd had so much cbd,
Speaker 1: I was very calm, even though I was like, I'm
Speaker 1: way more stone than I want to meet, but it
Speaker 1: really helps from that perspective of like just gave me
Speaker 1: a chill time. Hm. That makes sense. You know, a
Speaker 1: lot of times a lot of people have issues with
Speaker 1: anxiety and marijuana. I think a lot of them I
Speaker 1: find that the first time they did marijuana, they did
Speaker 1: it in a social environment, oftentimes with people they were
Speaker 1: not necessarily that comfortable with, and so I think the
Speaker 1: best way to deal with that is when you're using marijuana,
Speaker 1: either to overcome that fear of anxiety or using it
Speaker 1: for the first time, try to do in a place
Speaker 1: where you're either if either by yourself or with your
Speaker 1: lover or close friends, where you're really comfortable, where there's
Speaker 1: nobody you have to be on with, nobody you had
Speaker 1: issues with, and, if possible, do it not in like
Speaker 1: the same place, like the TV room or whatever, but
Speaker 1: trying to find a nice place outside, you know, whether
Speaker 1: it's the woods or a lake or something that's not
Speaker 1: your normal, you know, sitting environment. Just alter it a bit. Well,
Speaker 1: our next question comes from Michelle. Michelle says Dear Chelsea,
Speaker 1: I'm going on a camping trip this month with my
Speaker 1: husband and two other couples. We all plan on doing
Speaker 1: mushrooms together. The other couples do this yearly and are
Speaker 1: inviting us for the first time, I don't have much
Speaker 1: experience with drugs. I smoked weed a bit in my
Speaker 1: early twenties and I've done coke once. I'm a little
Speaker 1: nervous of the possibility of a quote bad trip. I
Speaker 1: feel extremely safe with my friends and I know they'll
Speaker 1: guide me through the experience. I'm mostly nervous about my husband.
Speaker 1: He's very experienced with drugs, although he has never done mushrooms.
Speaker 1: But my main worry is his reaction if I do
Speaker 1: have a bad trip. He would prefer me not to
Speaker 1: partake and I'm scared that my fear of his reaction
Speaker 1: could make me have a negative experience. What's your advice
Speaker 1: to have an enjoyable experience for my first time? Michelle,
Speaker 1: Hi Michelle, I think first off you have to stop
Speaker 1: telling yourself you're not going to have a good experience,
Speaker 1: because that's like a self fulfilling prophecy. You have to
Speaker 1: go into drugs always like you're using the drug. The
Speaker 1: drug is not using you. That's how I feel about
Speaker 1: any time I take drug. Anytime I'm not in control
Speaker 1: of the situation, is when I'm not in control of
Speaker 1: the situation. So I would just say to do you know,
Speaker 1: if you're worried about your experience, just do half of
Speaker 1: what everybody's doing and you're gonna have a good time.
Speaker 1: Mushrooms make you laugh, they make you relax. They you
Speaker 1: will be probably laughing the hardest you've ever laughed in
Speaker 1: your life. That's usually what happens to people the first
Speaker 1: time they do mushrooms. Ethan, what has you've been your
Speaker 1: experience with people who have bad trips on mushrooms? I mean,
Speaker 1: so I think your advice to Michelle is right on.
Speaker 1: The other thing I would tend to say is that
Speaker 1: Michelle and her husband should have a conversation beforehand and
Speaker 1: maybe with their friends there. Just say listen. I want
Speaker 1: you to know, dear husband, that if I need some
Speaker 1: help during this, I'm not expecting you to be there.
Speaker 1: Please don't worry about me and have one of the friends,
Speaker 1: saying we're in charge here, say to the husband you
Speaker 1: can relax if you're having your own good trip, bad trip,
Speaker 1: don't feel an obligation. You want to be together, be together,
Speaker 1: but don't get into a mode of needing this for
Speaker 1: one of the other and we, the friends, are here
Speaker 1: to help in that and thereby take the pressure. So if,
Speaker 1: for example, it does you're right, it's highly unlikely to
Speaker 1: go in the wrong direction. But if it does that,
Speaker 1: the husband's not gonna feel guilty for not being president's
Speaker 1: having the friends there the host. They're saying, we got this,
Speaker 1: you relax. When she's a little better, you guys can
Speaker 1: be together, something along those lines. Yeah, and just for
Speaker 1: the record, I know this is I mean, I don't
Speaker 1: speak for the entire universe, even though I'd like to.
Speaker 1: I would like to say that I've never been around
Speaker 1: anybody who had a bad trip on mushrooms, and I
Speaker 1: do them all the time. I've done them with dozens
Speaker 1: of times. I did have two trips that I would
Speaker 1: regard as that. We went into a very dark place
Speaker 1: um where I just began to feel enormously depressed and
Speaker 1: I used two different approaches to deal with it the
Speaker 1: first time and it felt a little bit light cheating.
Speaker 1: was that when into when it went into a very
Speaker 1: dark place, I had some m d m a around,
Speaker 1: you know ecstasy, and I just took a little m
Speaker 1: D M A and just lifted it up into a
Speaker 1: beautiful place again. It's one reason why sometimes people can
Speaker 1: buy mushrooms in M D M A, because it both
Speaker 1: enhances the possibility will go into a beautiful spot and
Speaker 1: it minimizes the chance I'll go into a dark spot.
Speaker 1: Now the other way to do it and the real
Speaker 1: possibility that it goes into a dark place, and this
Speaker 1: I remember. I was doing it with my partner, were
Speaker 1: to beat and it went into a very dark place.
Speaker 1: Everything felt black and dark and crumbling and dying and
Speaker 1: all this sort of stuff. And you can't. The thing is,
Speaker 1: you cannot run away from a bad trip. You can't
Speaker 1: run away from it, and so what I did was
Speaker 1: I almost envisioned that darkness of the bad trip is
Speaker 1: like a huge wave and you know, when you swimming
Speaker 1: in the ocean and then you see also a big
Speaker 1: wave coming, you can't run from it because then you'll
Speaker 1: get you know, crash on you, you'll tumbling, you might
Speaker 1: hurt yourself. The only choice when a big wave is
Speaker 1: coming is to dive into it, dive underneath it, dive
Speaker 1: through it, and so I practically, like musically, almost dived
Speaker 1: into the sand, but, like you know, I mean you
Speaker 1: know literally in a way, or you know or metaphorically
Speaker 1: what it was, into the way of the darkness and
Speaker 1: I kind of came out of it. I came out
Speaker 1: of it and all of the sun things just lifted
Speaker 1: and it became this magnificent trip for the rest of it.
Speaker 1: So I would say you're right to tell her don't
Speaker 1: worry about the bad one. It's highly unlikely. You have
Speaker 1: friends around who can take care of you. Don't worry
Speaker 1: about your husband's reaction. If it does go in a
Speaker 1: dark place, there are ways to deal with it and
Speaker 1: whatever case, even if it is dark, you're going to
Speaker 1: get better in a few hours and you'll be fine
Speaker 1: the next day. And many times people say they find
Speaker 1: that even going into a dark place on mushrooms are Ayahuasca,
Speaker 1: they may go through a terrifying place, especially with Ayahuasca,
Speaker 1: and then the next day they said, my God, that
Speaker 1: was the most magnificent experience in my life because of
Speaker 1: how much I've learned, how much I've benefited. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: I would just say to lower the dosage compared to
Speaker 1: what your friends are taking, you know, just for you
Speaker 1: in the beginning. Just take half so that you're not
Speaker 1: going to be, you know, out of control, and then,
Speaker 1: if you like it, you can take more. Yes, Great. Well,
Speaker 1: we have our first caller of the day today. This
Speaker 1: is Annie. Annie says, Dear Chelsea, I was diagnosed with
Speaker 1: complex PTSD about fifteen years ago, but I've struggled with
Speaker 1: it for over twenty years. I've tried many different forms
Speaker 1: of therapies, medications and THHC, which have helped some, but
Speaker 1: never completely. My symptoms have become much worse during the
Speaker 1: last few years, with running from fires in California, Covid
Speaker 1: and just the general ship show that is our world.
Speaker 1: I'm now struggling to leave the house and I've been
Speaker 1: isolating myself to an extreme. I'm pretty sure I'm bordering
Speaker 1: on Agoraphobia. Even my work zooms have become a source
Speaker 1: of anxiety. I'm planning to email my doctor to talk
Speaker 1: to him about some Beta blockers to help with the
Speaker 1: short term issues. I heard you talk about this on
Speaker 1: your show the other day and I have never tried
Speaker 1: them before. My question to you is I'm considering some
Speaker 1: alternative treatments, including micro dosing Psilocybin, m D M A
Speaker 1: or therapeutic. I mean, I've read that in some instances
Speaker 1: they are curing ptsd with these treatments, which I had
Speaker 1: been told would never be possible. I'd rather try Psilocybin,
Speaker 1: but that seems less legal at the moment and harder
Speaker 1: to come by. I feel lost in trying to figure
Speaker 1: out who to talk to about this. My doctor is
Speaker 1: pretty judgmental and I would never bring this up to him.
Speaker 1: Do you have any advice on resources to learn more
Speaker 1: about these types of treatments? I've obviously googled it, but
Speaker 1: I'm not sure who to trust. I can't be the
Speaker 1: only one whose symptoms have become much worse during this
Speaker 1: covid apocalypse time. Thank you both for doing what you do.
Speaker 1: Your show has been a great source of comfort and
Speaker 1: much needed laughter. Annie. Hi, Annie, Annie H that's Ethan.
Speaker 1: He's our guest today. I'm so sorry that you're dealing
Speaker 1: with this, Annie. Oh, thank you, but just know that
Speaker 1: this is temporary. You're not going to feel like this
Speaker 1: forever and you're not alone. So many people feel like
Speaker 1: this after covid and have anxiety, and you know there
Speaker 1: are ways to fix it. But Ethan, do you want
Speaker 1: to start with some resources, because you're probably the man
Speaker 1: for that. Just a few things, I mean. First of all,
Speaker 1: I think when it comes to micro dozing with mushrooms
Speaker 1: or something like that, if you can get a hold
Speaker 1: of them, even just, you know, not even pure philocide mushrooms,
Speaker 1: there's relatively little risk with doing that at a very,
Speaker 1: very low level. I mean, maybe it helps, maybe not,
Speaker 1: if there's not much evidence one it. I think the
Speaker 1: place I'd start is with Ketamine, because ketamine is legal,
Speaker 1: and I think the first place I probably the godfather
Speaker 1: of ketamine assisted psychotherapy, as a fellow named Phil Wilson
Speaker 1: up in Marin County in California and he's got a
Speaker 1: whole bunch of websites. So just Google and Phil Wilson
Speaker 1: and Kennamine. One of his top proteges is a doctor
Speaker 1: in the New York area, Gita Bade. I actually interviewed
Speaker 1: her on my podcast psychoactive not long ago and she
Speaker 1: speaks about the art of doing psychotherapy assisted by Ken Amine.
Speaker 1: And because that's legal, it's going to be easier to
Speaker 1: access the challenges, to find the best therapists and I
Speaker 1: think starting up with Phil Wilson, is a way to go.
Speaker 1: Now M D M A is probably gonna get approved
Speaker 1: by the food and Rug Administration, the FDA, sometime later
Speaker 1: this year, next year for treatment of PTSD. So there
Speaker 1: are already research programs. They're emitting patients. So if you
Speaker 1: just Google Ptsd, m D M A, psychedelic therapists, something
Speaker 1: like that, you'll probably see people popping up. The organization maps,
Speaker 1: which is the multi disapine associated psychological studies, has been
Speaker 1: the one driving this process for with the FDA and
Speaker 1: they're training people all around the country to be therapists.
Speaker 1: So that's probably the other place I would look. And
Speaker 1: once you start nosing around, then people will start to
Speaker 1: recommend to you therapists who are using m d m
Speaker 1: a assistant psychotherapy, not fully legally yet, but where it's
Speaker 1: becoming more and more common. Okay, thank you. Do you know?
Speaker 1: Have you heard of maps? Annie, I have heard of maps.
Speaker 1: I've done some reading about it. I just yeah, it
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like it was widely available yet. So well,
Speaker 1: they basically have research programs now. So sometimes if you
Speaker 1: can still get into one of those, but once you
Speaker 1: start are calling around, people will let you know about
Speaker 1: psychotherapists who are providing this sort of help, either using
Speaker 1: psilocybin or m D M A, but starting off with
Speaker 1: Ketamine simply because it's legal. Just finding the right therapist,
Speaker 1: I think, really is the way to go. Okay, perfect,
Speaker 1: thank you. And what state are you in? Annie? I'm
Speaker 1: in California. Oh okay, well, that's easy to find in California.
Speaker 1: Guided Kenemie trips. I have a few friends that are
Speaker 1: doing that. Oh okay, I didn't know that that was
Speaker 1: really a thing here. I've seen it like in southern California,
Speaker 1: but I'm in northern California. Phill Wilson is right up
Speaker 1: in Marin and he's the godfather of Kenemine, so definitely
Speaker 1: check out his website and see what you can find
Speaker 1: out there. Okay, great, thank you. Yeah, and you know,
Speaker 1: try and in the meantime Beta blockers, if you get
Speaker 1: those prescription. That's a short term solution, but it also
Speaker 1: does kind of the neuropathways. It changes those. In my experience,
Speaker 1: I've taken Beta blockers and you don't have to take
Speaker 1: them all the time. You take them and it kind
Speaker 1: of sets up a new pattern of thoughts so that
Speaker 1: you don't get that nervous energy. I do look at
Speaker 1: it as a short term solution. I think that the
Speaker 1: Ketamine and everything else is a deeper, more spiritual solution to,
Speaker 1: you know, the anxiety and the discomfort you're feeling. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's also a brilliant doctor writer, think her, named Julie Holland,
Speaker 1: who talks a lot about this stuff. So just Google
Speaker 1: Julie Holland and I think you'll come across an interesting
Speaker 1: information as well. Thank you. Okay, Annie, take care. Let
Speaker 1: let us know how it go. Yeah, let us know
Speaker 1: how it goes. Okay, well, thank you so much. Sure.
Speaker 1: All right. Well, our next question comes from Katie. Katie
Speaker 1: asks dear Chelsea, on the show, I heard you talking
Speaker 1: about micro dosing chocolate mushrooms. I'm an elementary school special
Speaker 1: ED teacher and my weed and ZAN x intake increased
Speaker 1: substantially over the pandemic. I talked to her a little
Speaker 1: bit about it and her zanex increase was really linked
Speaker 1: to a really high stress job that she had. I'm
Speaker 1: looking to take a break from the weed, but I
Speaker 1: know I'll be very unpleasant. I'm curious about the chocolate
Speaker 1: fun guy and where it can find them safely. Thanks Katie,
Speaker 1: and she's actually here with us on the phone as well.
Speaker 1: Hi Katie, hi there. Yeah, I think mushrooms are a
Speaker 1: great pivot for you. Are Mushrooms legal? What? What states
Speaker 1: legally sell mushrooms? Ethan, no, there's no place where its legal,
Speaker 1: although if you figure out a way to grow it,
Speaker 1: there's all these sort of guys to growing you at home,
Speaker 1: and so large numbers of people are doing that now.
Speaker 1: I'll also tell you. I don't know where you are,
Speaker 1: but like here in New York City, where they have
Speaker 1: all these marijuanna delivery services that are still illegal, but
Speaker 1: nobody's going after them anymore. More and more of them
Speaker 1: are selling chocolate mushrooms. I mean I've now seen these
Speaker 1: menus which used to just be different types of marijuana,
Speaker 1: edible and smokable, and now they're including, you know, mushrooms
Speaker 1: in little powders and mushrooms and chocolates. So you know,
Speaker 1: if you, if you know, where do you live? I
Speaker 1: live in New England and I use a delivery one
Speaker 1: of those, you know, same type of things, so I'll
Speaker 1: have to check that out. I haven't even bothered to
Speaker 1: look at their edibles. M Hmm. Yeah, just ask your
Speaker 1: delivery service if they happen to provide mushrooms and, if
Speaker 1: they don't, if they know so many us, because I'm
Speaker 1: amazed and how much this it has taken off in
Speaker 1: the Marilanna delivery world, if you're carrying these things as well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's been my biggest issue, is being, you know, old
Speaker 1: enough to know that online is not where it's at
Speaker 1: to be trusted necessarily, and then not being young enough
Speaker 1: to really know anybody that's still growing or got stuff
Speaker 1: like that around. And so I was kind of stuck.
Speaker 1: And my doctor was more concerned with the ZANEX used
Speaker 1: leading to Alzheimer's more than anything else, which kind of
Speaker 1: scared me. And then that was kind of like, okay,
Speaker 1: I really like to back off of that and not
Speaker 1: need it so much. So if I had a different
Speaker 1: option other than the weed, that would be great, because
Speaker 1: at this point I just smoke all the time. What
Speaker 1: about with weed? I mean, because the ADEX is the
Speaker 1: one from a health perspective. It has a lot more
Speaker 1: risks and weed has relatively fewer risks and it might
Speaker 1: be a matter of changing the way you're consuming weed
Speaker 1: or the you know, maybe shifting to a drink couple
Speaker 1: of self with low th H C content in it,
Speaker 1: and those can be kind of Nice. I don't already
Speaker 1: tried that. Yeah, my issue is that I my consumption
Speaker 1: is just off the charts and like I'd make my
Speaker 1: own tincture that's a hundred twenty milligrams per Melo leader
Speaker 1: and make my own gummies and sometimes feel them. Chelsea
Speaker 1: talked about chocolate mushrooms as as an alternative and I
Speaker 1: was really curious about it. Yeah, I think what Ethan
Speaker 1: said is pretty accurate, though, like anyone who's delivering weed
Speaker 1: is also delivering mushrooms, because they're everywhere. Everywhere I go,
Speaker 1: somebody hands me mushrooms. I wish I could hand them
Speaker 1: to you right now. I want to go to there.
Speaker 1: But yeah, but, yeah, you, you should investigate and if
Speaker 1: it's not that we delivery service that you're using, look
Speaker 1: for some other ones, because I guarantee you'll find them there.
Speaker 1: You know, just don't Overdo it when you're trying mushrooms
Speaker 1: for the first time again, make sure you're just doing
Speaker 1: like a half a dose to see how what your
Speaker 1: reaction is, and then once you're comfortable with it, you
Speaker 1: know how to tight trate or increase or whatever you're after,
Speaker 1: which is relief. Yeah, I was gonna say what is it?
Speaker 1: How would you describe that? Feeling? Well, with mushrooms I
Speaker 1: find that I just have a lot of clarity and
Speaker 1: I feel up. If I take chocolate mushrooms, like with
Speaker 1: my girlfriends, I'll take more to laugh, you know, and
Speaker 1: just be silly, but mostly I take them. You know,
Speaker 1: I took one yesterday. My friend had some mushroom morning mushrooms,
Speaker 1: and it had like all these other ingredients in it
Speaker 1: that we're just like wake up, natural ingredients and and
Speaker 1: herbs and stuff like that. So and that stuff is
Speaker 1: just so minimal. You just feel a little bit more
Speaker 1: clarity and just a little sharper, you know, on it
Speaker 1: and upbeat and ready to go, kind of like a
Speaker 1: cup of coffee. Without it, I was just gonna say
Speaker 1: my Tiktok Algorithm locked on into sending me mudwater. Is
Speaker 1: that something similar to what you're talking about? Yeah, the
Speaker 1: mudwater is I love it. I think it's very tasty,
Speaker 1: but it's a little bit more of like a coffee
Speaker 1: substitute rather than yeah, it's like adapt to Gen Mushrooms
Speaker 1: for health and that sort of thing. But it's tasty,
Speaker 1: it tastes like try t you know, but not gonna
Speaker 1: get you high. No. So here's one more question too.
Speaker 1: Would you both suggest that she sort of tapered down
Speaker 1: the marijuana use before trying the mushrooms, or use them
Speaker 1: in conjunction with each other? Well, what's the negative effect
Speaker 1: of the MARIJUANNA use? Now for you, I mean my
Speaker 1: bank account, but I have a home garden with all
Speaker 1: a bunch of tomato plants and then one, one lovely
Speaker 1: little sativa. So I'm, you know, trying that way. But
Speaker 1: other than the fact that I'm spending a lot of
Speaker 1: money and don't really get high anymore unless it's, you know,
Speaker 1: what people would consider way overdoing it, like I went
Speaker 1: through like a half an ounce in the last week. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so your tolerance is pretty high. Yeah, I mean because
Speaker 1: some people use marijuana as heavily as you do. It's
Speaker 1: because you're getting some medical benefit from it. I mean
Speaker 1: it may be serving this anti anxiety purpose. Definitely is
Speaker 1: trying to hold back on the ZANNICS and maybe figuring
Speaker 1: out a more cost effective way, the most cost effective
Speaker 1: way to be consuming the marijuana. And I think if
Speaker 1: you're gonna do the mushrooms. I don't know that you
Speaker 1: need to cut back on the marijuana. You know it's
Speaker 1: there are different substances. They operate differently on your brain
Speaker 1: and if you're doing is chelse you suggest doing with
Speaker 1: a little micro dose thing or smaller dose, try it.
Speaker 1: I mean look for me, the advantage of not using
Speaker 1: cannabis every day is that when I get high, I
Speaker 1: really enjoy getting high. Miss that. I think I'd more
Speaker 1: look at it through that Lens to see if you
Speaker 1: in fact you can taper off on cannabis or had some,
Speaker 1: you know, a cannabis free day or like each week
Speaker 1: or something like that, and just see what that feels
Speaker 1: like and then you can decide whether you want to
Speaker 1: try something like a low dose mushroom either on your
Speaker 1: marijuana day or even on the days you're doing marijuana. Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm definitely curious. I might now that I know it's
Speaker 1: it's in New York. I'm I'm ahead of there in
Speaker 1: a couple of days, so I should tell You New
Speaker 1: York they haven't actually opened up the doors for leak
Speaker 1: sale until the beginning of the year. So so it
Speaker 1: would still be a delivery service. will be a delivery
Speaker 1: some places are opening up anyway and sort of daring
Speaker 1: the cops to address them so you can find them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean they've got better things to do at this point. Really, exactly. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but you can easily find a delivery service. I mean
Speaker 1: that's what everybody in New York City does. You know,
Speaker 1: if you get it delivered to whoever you're staying with,
Speaker 1: you could figure that out easily. Awesome. That's so great
Speaker 1: to know. Well, I really appreciate your your advice and
Speaker 1: you know, it was cool to get to chat and
Speaker 1: something that I wouldn't normally get to have a conversation
Speaker 1: with on like an educated level. So that's pretty cool.
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Awesome, awesome, good luck to you. Keep
Speaker 1: US posting all right by well, our next question really
Speaker 1: fits well into what we just talked about with Katie.
Speaker 1: Carrie wrote in. She says, Dear Chelsea, I've been dating
Speaker 1: my boyfriend for four years now. We're in our late twenties.
Speaker 1: He's always very openly loved smoking weed. I don't personally
Speaker 1: partake very often because it makes my anxiety worse, but
Speaker 1: lots of my friends and family do, so I'm very
Speaker 1: familiar with being around it. In the early years of
Speaker 1: our relationship I saw no problem with his smoking because
Speaker 1: we were young. It seemed less destructive than drinking and
Speaker 1: I didn't feel it was my place to judge. However,
Speaker 1: he's almost thirty now and he smokes every single day.
Speaker 1: He'll smoke right when he gets home from work and
Speaker 1: again multiple times throughout the night until we go to bed.
Speaker 1: On the weekends, he smokes almost immediately after waking up.
Speaker 1: Often he can't even eat without it because he's used
Speaker 1: to relying on it to induce hunger. To his credit,
Speaker 1: his personality isn't altered much when he smokes. He doesn't
Speaker 1: get quiet or sleepy, as I know some people do.
Speaker 1: I still enjoy being around him, even though he sometimes
Speaker 1: does have a bad memory because of it. My question is,
Speaker 1: how do you know when smoking weed becomes a problem?
Speaker 1: We're approaching the age where we make more serious commitments
Speaker 1: like marriage and kids, and this feels like the elephant
Speaker 1: in the room. I've spoken to Him Multiple Times about this,
Speaker 1: but rather than having a conversation, he shuts down my
Speaker 1: concern earns as me having an outdated and biased view
Speaker 1: of marijuana. In his opinion, there are no bad side effects.
Speaker 1: It's more widely becoming legal and there's really no reason
Speaker 1: to stop or slow down. Since you openly enjoy weed
Speaker 1: more than I do, it might be interesting to have
Speaker 1: a perspective on when and if marijuana use can go
Speaker 1: too far. Carry Ethan. Why don't you hit that out
Speaker 1: of the park? Okay, what I would just say to
Speaker 1: her is basically, if he's not really seeing any problems
Speaker 1: with his youth. And then she said maybe his memory
Speaker 1: isn't as good because he's smoking weed. But I think
Speaker 1: the bottom line is basically don't worry about it. Getting
Speaker 1: older is not an issue. He's getting defensive in the
Speaker 1: relationship with you. Is Not going to be productive. He's
Speaker 1: already indicated he can hear criticism of that side of
Speaker 1: his life. Is quite possible that he's using this in
Speaker 1: a way that's more medical than anything else, since he's
Speaker 1: probably really not getting very high anymore. He's just using
Speaker 1: it on a very regular basis. So I can understand
Speaker 1: feeling a little irritated by the fact that that thing
Speaker 1: is always in your life and it's not something you
Speaker 1: share much, and maybe even feeling a little jealous of
Speaker 1: it in some respect. But unless you can pinpoint problems
Speaker 1: with it. I would just leave it alone and it's
Speaker 1: quite possible that the day will come and the moment
Speaker 1: will come when he comes to the conclusion that maybe
Speaker 1: he wants to stop doing it. But if he's got
Speaker 1: his backup because you're getting more and more critical about it,
Speaker 1: I don't think that's going to go anywhere good. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I would say the exact same thing. There's no reason.
Speaker 1: You know, it is kind of an outdated stance on it.
Speaker 1: I mean it is becoming legal everywhere. He likes using
Speaker 1: it and again, what Ethan said is perfectly accurate. At
Speaker 1: this point he's probably not getting that much benefit from it,
Speaker 1: unless it is a health benefit, because he's certainly probably
Speaker 1: not getting high at this point. I know when I
Speaker 1: over consume marijuana, it takes so much to make me high.
Speaker 1: So yeah, you gotta kind of just like get rid
Speaker 1: of that way of thinking and, you know, just be
Speaker 1: happy it's not something like drinking or another drug. That
Speaker 1: would be a situation if somebody came home and they
Speaker 1: relied on that. You know, marijuana is pretty benign and
Speaker 1: it's helpful to a lot of people. So you don't
Speaker 1: know what kind of anxiety he might have or what
Speaker 1: other body aches he might have that this is helping
Speaker 1: him with that he might not even be aware of himself.
Speaker 1: It might just be to for him to equalize. So
Speaker 1: I would just try and say be a little bit
Speaker 1: more open hearted and open minded. Let him do his
Speaker 1: thing and then you do your thing. Yeah, and there's
Speaker 1: that old thing of when do you know something is
Speaker 1: addictive or becoming a problem, and it's when you have
Speaker 1: negative consequences. It sounds like he's not really having negative consequences.
Speaker 1: You know, we've had people call into the show and
Speaker 1: and say, you know, I really want to taper down
Speaker 1: my marijuana use or or that sort of thing. So
Speaker 1: I feel like if someone thinks that they do, then
Speaker 1: like go for it. Definitely your body is telling you something,
Speaker 1: your mind is telling you something, but it sounds like
Speaker 1: he's not having any any negative consequences other than this
Speaker 1: relationship issue. Yeah, I liked what you said that. My
Speaker 1: definition of addiction is addiction equals depending plus problems. So
Speaker 1: if you're dependent on a drug, whether it's coffee to
Speaker 1: get up in the morning, whether it's a Statin for
Speaker 1: your cholesterol or a heart drug, whether it's method on
Speaker 1: because you were once addicted to heroin. It's not an
Speaker 1: addiction so long as that dependence on the drug is
Speaker 1: not a problem, and it sounds quite likely that with
Speaker 1: this guy. It sounds like it's basically a dependence, a
Speaker 1: serious dependence, but not really causing any problems. In fact,
Speaker 1: it sounds like the biggest problem is it could become
Speaker 1: a problem in his marriage, even if it's not causing
Speaker 1: him any problems in his own personal life apart from that. Well,
Speaker 1: on that note, we will take our break and we'll
Speaker 1: be right back with Ethan Naielman and Chelsea. We're back. Fantastic. Well, Ethan,
Speaker 1: did you have any advice you'd like to get from Chelsea? Wow, Chelsea,
Speaker 1: you know I was thinking about that. The first piece
Speaker 1: of advice, and if you is not specifically about drugs.
Speaker 1: You have this very successful pie cast and I have
Speaker 1: my podcast like co active, which I'm trying to turn
Speaker 1: into a much bigger thing. So if you've got any
Speaker 1: advice about how to get a building audience for a
Speaker 1: podcast that talks about the whole spectrum of drugs and
Speaker 1: drug wars and drug policies and drug use, I'm all
Speaker 1: ears for advice about doing something like that. Well, I
Speaker 1: mean you should book a couple of celebrity guests. I'll
Speaker 1: volunteer to come on and talk to you about drugs.
Speaker 1: That will help. The first thing. Yeah, to make it
Speaker 1: a little shiny, but I've what I've learned about podcasts.
Speaker 1: How long have you had your podcast? I'm in the
Speaker 1: second season now, so we started just over a year ago. Yeah,
Speaker 1: what I've learned is that it takes a couple of
Speaker 1: years for anybody, whether you're a famous person or less
Speaker 1: famous or whatever your platform is, that it takes a
Speaker 1: few years to really build and grow. But when you
Speaker 1: have a subject matter that's so many people are interested
Speaker 1: right now and it's such a part of our Zeitgeist,
Speaker 1: I mean, I have no I mean you've got a
Speaker 1: great title and you're very knowledgeable, obviously, so I would
Speaker 1: imagine that people are very interested in hearing more of
Speaker 1: what you have to say. So I know that certainly
Speaker 1: our listeners, plenty of them, will be interested in that too.
Speaker 1: So I would just say, yeah, just keep doing it.
Speaker 1: That's how you accrue more listeners, you know, you just
Speaker 1: it happens slowly over time. Okay, Great. Well, I have
Speaker 1: one other question for you. Which is, you know, when
Speaker 1: I used to be a professor and I wrote books,
Speaker 1: academic books and a lot of writing, but in the
Speaker 1: last and twenty years I've been writing less and less,
Speaker 1: and now I want to write a book about my
Speaker 1: life and about drugs and I'm kind of blocked. And
Speaker 1: I see that you've had like five or six best sellers,
Speaker 1: and a lot of them about your life. So how
Speaker 1: did you actually get those books done and out? With
Speaker 1: a lot of cannabis. Quite frankly, that's really that. That,
Speaker 1: that is the best use of cannabis that I've ever had.
Speaker 1: When I have a task at hand, a creative task,
Speaker 1: and I do all the work, but when I have
Speaker 1: to go in and Polish and deliver, is when I
Speaker 1: use cannabis and or mushrooms. Mushrooms also micro dosing mushrooms
Speaker 1: helps me focus. But Yeah, because you get organized and
Speaker 1: then you get hyper focused. Cannabis helps me lose myself
Speaker 1: in something, but I have to have the subject there.
Speaker 1: You know what I mean, like if I go work out,
Speaker 1: I can lose myself, and working out, if I'm writing,
Speaker 1: I can lose myself, and writing, if I'm sitting on
Speaker 1: my bed, I'm gonna lose myself on my phone, but
Speaker 1: you just I like to choose the activity that I'M
Speaker 1: gonna lose myself in. But I would definitely say cannabis
Speaker 1: has been a huge contributor to my the success of
Speaker 1: my books. Wow, wow, well, I'll tell you. I keep
Speaker 1: meaning to start a kind of microdocing mushroom routine, but
Speaker 1: I keep forgetting to do it. So it may be
Speaker 1: that that maybe the answer for me, because sometimes I
Speaker 1: find with cannabis like I find a hard time writing
Speaker 1: with it, because I sort of forget, like I lose
Speaker 1: my train of thought. You know, I forget what it
Speaker 1: was I wrote just it was just thinking a few
Speaker 1: minutes ago. It's one reason I don't like giving a
Speaker 1: speech or doing interview under the influence of cannabis, because
Speaker 1: it's problematic in that way, whereas mushrooms can be more focusing.
Speaker 1: So I maybe have to make more of a serious
Speaker 1: effort there. Yeah, just put it together as your responsibility
Speaker 1: to get your book done right. You're right, and you
Speaker 1: need to start your mushroom routine. Sounds good. Sounds good. Ethan,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being on the podcast today.
Speaker 1: I loved everything you had to say. Well, I look,
Speaker 1: I love doing it. It was great to team up
Speaker 1: with you on answering those questions, Chelsea, and I really
Speaker 1: admire so all the ways that you've been out there
Speaker 1: on the drug issue and on so many others. Are
Speaker 1: Politics Aligned very much and I appreciate both your courage
Speaker 1: and sort of really speaking, I saw you were speaking
Speaker 1: out about this drug stuff before marijuana was legal, and
Speaker 1: you were speaking about psychedelics and doing episodes about it
Speaker 1: on Netflix and all those where when this was not
Speaker 1: quite so cool and hips. So you were one of
Speaker 1: the pioneers and getting this out and I really do
Speaker 1: appreciate that. Thank you, thanks, sad thanks. Okay, bye, bye, bye. So,
Speaker 1: if you'd like advice from Chelsea, just send us an
Speaker 1: email at dear Chelsea project at GMAIL DOT com. Dear
Speaker 1: Chelsea is a production of I heart radio, executive produced
Speaker 1: by nick stuff, produced by Catherine Law and edited and
Speaker 1: engineered by Brad Dickert.