WEBVTT - Bonus episode: Ethan on the podcast Dear Chelsea 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:07.720 Hi, I'm Ethan Edelman and this is psychoactive, a production 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:11.600 of I heart radio and protozoa pictures. psychoactive is the 0:00:11.600 --> 0:00:15.040 show where we talk about all things drugs, but any 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:18.760 views expressed here do not represent those of my heart media, 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:23.599 protozoa pictures or their executives and employees. Indeed, as an 0:00:23.680 --> 0:00:26.840 inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not even 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:31.120 represent my own, and nothing contained in this show should 0:00:31.120 --> 0:00:34.040 be used his medical advice or encouragement to use any 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:44.400 type of drugs. Hello, psychoactive listeners, so today we're bringing 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:47.920 you a bonus episode. A few weeks ago I was 0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:51.080 on somebody else's podcast. It was the actress and Comedian 0:00:51.159 --> 0:00:56.240 Chelsea Handler. Her podcast is called Dear Chelsea, and she 0:00:56.360 --> 0:00:59.000 asked me all sorts of questions about drugs, and then 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:02.560 we took turns answering questions from her audience. I'm sure 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:06.040 you're really going to enjoy this. Hi everybody. While I'm 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:08.720 taking the month of September off of doing stand up, 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:12.600 I return on October one to complete my vaccinated and 0:01:12.720 --> 0:01:17.399 Horny tour. October, November and December. I have new dates up. 0:01:17.800 --> 0:01:21.160 I kick it off in Saratoga, California, and I'm coming 0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:24.440 to all parts of California, Long Beach, Bakersfield. I'm going 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:30.920 to Niagara Falls, Tucson, Arizona, Colorado, Minneapolis, San Diego, reading, 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:33.960 Pennsylvania and Baltimore, Maryland, just to name a few. There's 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:36.440 also some Floridian dates in there, since this will be 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:38.520 my last year that I'm able to go inside the 0:01:38.520 --> 0:01:41.520 state of Florida. SO CHECK OUT CHELSEA HANDLER DOT COM 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:43.960 for more stand up dates for my vaccinated in Horny tour. 0:01:44.600 --> 0:01:48.400 These are my last dates. Hi, Catherine, how are you? 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:51.360 I'm so good. I'm here in L A and it's 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:53.880 going to be a hundred and four this weekend. I 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:55.880 left l a because I don't like that kind of 0:01:55.920 --> 0:01:58.600 temperature and but I'm going to see you in my 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:00.960 orcas soon. Catherine and I are going on vacation together 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:04.000 with Brad. We're going to become a throuple. We're gonna 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:09.160 open up their relationship. That wouldn't be weird. You're welcome in. 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:12.240 We're really good at snuggling and after care. I was 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:13.720 just at a lunch. I'm in New York City this 0:02:13.720 --> 0:02:15.480 week because I'm here to watch the US Open, because 0:02:15.480 --> 0:02:17.359 I wanted to watch Serena play for the last time, 0:02:17.400 --> 0:02:19.799 so I went to the first night where she fucking won, 0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:23.600 and it was so special. I just love that energy. 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:26.760 I love watching people win. Yes, she came out in 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:30.919 like a glittery wrote like tape, like a queen. Yeah, 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:34.000 she had six layers to signify all of the I 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:37.680 guess six US opens. She had one and she played 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:41.240 this girl whose name, God, that's terrible, I can't remember. 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:43.959 But the girl was so good. It's so funny to 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:46.320 watch Serena play because, like her opponents are always just 0:02:46.440 --> 0:02:49.560 running back and forth with such athleticism and Serena just 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:52.320 stands there. She's just like here, I'll return the ball 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:55.120 from over here, like I'm not running anywhere. It's pretty 0:02:55.160 --> 0:02:57.680 amazing to watch her play. She's such a she's a beast. 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:00.400 It's always amazing to see somebody who's us at the 0:03:00.440 --> 0:03:03.240 top of their game, whether it's sports, whether it's comedy, 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:06.160 whether it's whatever it is. It's so fascinating to watch 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:07.880 somebody WHO's at the top of their yeah, yeah, I 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:10.200 love it. I love the whole vibe of like tennis, 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:13.240 Grand Slams, like I've been to Wimbledon I think I've been. 0:03:13.440 --> 0:03:15.480 I think that's probably it. Wimbledon and the U S 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:17.440 hope and I've been to but it's just such a vibe, 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:20.639 you know, like you can drink. You Watch sports like 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:23.399 it's up close. You can see everything, no matter where 0:03:23.400 --> 0:03:25.720 you're sitting in the stadium. You're just watching the court, 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:27.239 you know. It's not like a concert. We have to 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:30.120 watch on one of these big screens. And the US 0:03:30.160 --> 0:03:32.200 Open is the biggest one out of the Grand Slams. 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:35.360 It's it holds the most seats and so it's massive 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:40.120 and it's just it's yeah, my best friend, Bitchy, she's 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:42.640 my sports friends. She knows. She's always got in roads 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:45.840 to any sporting event, so we always get hooked up. So, yeah, 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:48.360 I'm having a great time and I'm and then I'm 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:50.480 going to see you in my Orca. Yeah, and you've 0:03:50.480 --> 0:03:52.040 been saying all kinds of friends this week. I know 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:54.880 because we're making plans last week when, Oh my God, 0:03:54.920 --> 0:03:56.720 I know. I'm looking at my calendar. I'm like, Fun, 0:03:57.240 --> 0:03:59.720 what the Fund is this? We have a podcast recording 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:02.600 a two this interrupts my lunch and mushroom at day. 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:05.960 I was so sorry to interrupt last night, though, I 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:07.960 had the most romantic night by myself. I went to 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:11.480 first I got up and I worked out for two 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:14.640 hours because I shot this campaign and I had to 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:17.880 really get it together for well one week. That's how 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:20.719 I get it together, and then I just went off. 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:22.839 Since then, I've gained six pounds and I am just 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:25.680 cruising through Manhattan and I'm walking everywhere. Yesterday I met 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:27.960 my sister. I walked forty five minutes. I met her 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:30.679 for launch. Then my friend pitchy came, then I walked 0:04:30.720 --> 0:04:32.960 all the way back and then I walked back downtown. 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:38.080 I got in seven twenty seven thousand steps yesterday and 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:41.479 my goal is just too I love New York City 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:44.200 for that reason. There's nowhere. I mean, I just wish 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:46.120 I lived in a city that was walkable, not in 0:04:46.200 --> 0:04:51.360 Los Angeles. Los Angeles definitely is not. It's barely drivable. Yeah, 0:04:51.480 --> 0:04:53.560 but where else have you been? You've been all over 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:56.320 the place. Oh my gosh, I just got back from 0:04:56.400 --> 0:05:01.200 Greece and Vancouver Island. I went from gree to Vancouver Island. 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:04.280 Warmed very cold, it sounds like. Yeah, well, it wasn't 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:07.080 very cold on Vancouver Island. Greece was beautiful. I went 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:09.240 to an island called left cotta, which I've never been to, 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:11.640 with a bunch of friends. We just got on a 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:14.719 boat every day and went to a different beautiful restaurant 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:18.560 and drank white wine and ate Greek Salads and fish, 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:21.520 and I could not have been happier. I actually was 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:23.479 able to protect my face from the sun with this 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:25.840 new hat I got. So it was like a Dick, 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:28.320 but I like at least my skin is not burned. 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:31.599 And Yeah, I was on vacation with lots of different 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:35.839 new people and some children, so you know how that goes. Yes, 0:05:35.880 --> 0:05:38.400 I saw your instant stories with one particular who I 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:40.560 think was your favorite. Oh Yeah, she's my favorite. The 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:43.320 ones who can't really form sentences are my favorites, you know, 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:45.560 like I like when they're beginning to talk but they 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:49.440 haven't really gotten the hamstered it. Yeah, that's when they 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:55.440 get a full personality. Is when I start to lose issuest. Yeah, 0:05:55.480 --> 0:05:58.200 the like Gibber Jabber stage where they'll just like tell 0:05:58.200 --> 0:06:02.039 you all about their day and total like jabbery English 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:05.280 is my favorite. I had this four year old girl, 0:06:05.400 --> 0:06:08.520 Mia who was just she was so she was like 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:10.479 a seven year old. So it was so funny. I'd 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:12.160 be like, okay, let's play a game where we count 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:14.039 all the boats that are moving in the ocean. She's 0:06:14.080 --> 0:06:17.960 like that sounds silly. I've got another game. I'm like, 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:20.919 Oh my God, she said, I don't think so. She 0:06:21.120 --> 0:06:24.839 was just so funny, just like and this old British like. 0:06:24.880 --> 0:06:27.159 She sounded like an old British man. She sounded like 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:31.400 this is doubt fire. I love that. Traveling with children 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:33.320 is another thing. You got us to have your own 0:06:33.560 --> 0:06:39.320 timeline involved people. I just don't understand how people do it, 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:41.400 how they have so many children and then they have 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:43.479 to pack up their car and they have to put 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:46.520 in the baby viorn and their cookies and their whatever bottle, 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:49.599 all of it. And at every airport all you ever 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:52.279 see is parents taking their sippy cups and downing the 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:55.040 liquid in the sippy cups because the kids haven't finished it. 0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:57.719 Like I was at Heathrow on a layover. Oh, I 0:06:57.760 --> 0:07:00.800 was in London too. I was at Heathrow and he 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:03.680 throws like the strictest airport in terms of like liquids 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:06.760 and fluids. So basically everyone who came through just had 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:08.320 to sit there in front of the T S A 0:07:08.320 --> 0:07:11.880 agent drinking their thermis because no one had, you know, 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:14.840 emptied out their thermis, and I'm like, how do people 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:18.440 not fucking know about emptying out their thermis at this point? 0:07:18.800 --> 0:07:21.120 How do they not even doing this? For a minute now, 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:27.360 it's been since yes, oh my gosh. Yeah, I just 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:29.280 don't think I could have a kid and be the 0:07:29.320 --> 0:07:32.840 sort of mom who like licks their kids pacifier to 0:07:32.880 --> 0:07:36.160 clean it before giving it to them or like like parents. Man, 0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:37.800 I have a lot of respect, but I can't do 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:40.800 all that gross stuff. No, no, it's all. Yeah, it's 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:43.600 too much. It's just never ending and some people make 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:46.960 it look easy and I respect that, because it's not easy. 0:07:47.120 --> 0:07:50.400 Some people with many nannies. We have a very special 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:54.760 guest today. His name is Ethan Niedelman and he is 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:58.600 the former Princeton professor who built a political movement to 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:01.920 legalize marijuana, roll at the drug war and treat drugs 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:04.720 as a health issue, not a criminal one. He is 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:08.920 now the host of the podcast psychoactive about all things drugs, 0:08:09.200 --> 0:08:11.880 now in a second season, and obviously I would like 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:15.960 to announce to all my customers this disclaimer that I 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:18.080 am not a doctor I play one on a podcast 0:08:18.280 --> 0:08:22.400 that I would never ever encourage anybody to do drugs. 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:27.040 This isn't medical advice, this is my own personal therapy. Ethan. Hi, 0:08:27.200 --> 0:08:29.920 it's so nice to have you. Well, it's a pleasure 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:32.360 to be on your show, Chelsea. I really appreciate it. 0:08:32.520 --> 0:08:34.560 Oh well, thank you. Thanks for being here, and you 0:08:34.600 --> 0:08:39.160 know you've spoken to Catherine before. Yeah, hi, okay, so 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:42.120 I know you are a huge proponent of the legalization 0:08:42.120 --> 0:08:45.760 of marijuana and basically I mean all drug use, right, 0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:48.000 or do you want to get specific about what drugs 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:51.000 you are for and what drugs you're against? Well, I mean, 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:53.000 let me be very specific. I mean most of my 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:56.400 life was about working to legalize marijuana and to end 0:08:56.440 --> 0:08:58.679 the war on drugs. So that's where and I was 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:01.439 never called myself prom a want, although my personal life, 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:03.760 I'd say marijuana and I have had a great relationship 0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:06.440 for a very long time. Amen to that. But when 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:08.360 it comes to the other drugs, you know I'm sort 0:09:08.400 --> 0:09:10.880 of a Merril Wand and Psychedelic exceptionalist and that those 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:12.440 are the drugs that have been good in my life 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:14.320 and the other ones are not so crazy about. But 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:17.600 the principle that nobody should be punished for whatever drugs 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:19.520 they put in their body if they don't hear anybody else. 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:21.720 I think that's the core principle we have to remember, 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:24.400 so that even if you love, we love, psychedology don't 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:26.520 like all the other sorts of things, it doesn't mean 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:30.880 that other people should get punished simply for using those things. Right, absolutely. 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:33.640 And so what are your feeling about other sort of narcotics? 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:37.240 I mean, you're into psychedelics and so I assume that 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:41.320 encompasses all of all psychedelics. PSILOCYBIN. Well, you know, I 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:44.440 haven't tried all of them yet, right. I mean, you know, 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:46.640 mushrooms have been my kind of go to one for 0:09:46.679 --> 0:09:49.880 a very long time. AYAHUASCA has been good. I've done 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:52.080 Mescaland once or twice I've tried a few others. I 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:55.040 did two CEB M Dama, not really a PSYCHEDELIC, but 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:57.319 that one was very nice in my life, although it 0:09:57.320 --> 0:09:59.720 doesn't really work for me anymore. But when it comes 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:01.719 to the opioids, I mean no, I just think they're 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:04.199 useful for pain and that one needs to be very 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:07.040 careful when you're using them. But I do know people 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:09.400 who use psyche you know who use opioids and have 0:10:09.520 --> 0:10:12.320 led very successful lives even when using them regularly. So 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:14.400 I'm just it's always just very important that we not 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:17.120 demonize other people, even for using drugs that are more 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:20.760 dangerous and even like cocaine. Like I've never really liked 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:23.719 cocaine that much. Mean for me like having cocaine. It's 0:10:23.760 --> 0:10:26.559 like drinking too much coffee and having post nasal drip right. 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:29.120 So it's never been a thing for me. I have 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:31.680 friends who love cocaine. I've had friends who got in 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:34.440 trouble with cocaine. I've had friends who just play with it. 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:36.360 So I'm not a big Fan. I don't think it 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:38.840 brings out the best in people. You know, I wouldn't 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:41.440 want people I really care about getting into cocaine too much, 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:43.840 but it still means I don't like the law of 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:47.160 punishing anybody for using that stuff. M So, when you 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:49.160 said you used M D m a but it stopped 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:51.000 working for you, what do you mean by that, because 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:54.040 I've heard that before from people. Well, I'll tell you. 0:10:54.120 --> 0:10:56.480 I mean. You know, Chelsea, when I first started using 0:10:56.520 --> 0:10:59.920 early thirties, it was in the context of my divorce. 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:01.800 I think it helped us land up on a softer 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:06.080 landing and I've used it in romantic relationships since in 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:08.720 my thirties and forties and it was good with friends 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:11.959 and I've been to raise but around I'm now sixty five, 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:14.480 around the time I hit my early fifties, I found 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:19.040 that the upside started waning and the downside started increasing 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:20.960 and I started having the feeling like my body was 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:24.360 telling me, don't put this in you, and so I 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:26.360 really miss it. I mean it was it served a 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:30.160 valuable purpose for me in terms, especially in romantic relationships, 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:32.680 in terms of being able to deal with issues and 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:36.880 have communications and otherwise difficult to do. Yeah, that's true. 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:39.640 It is helpful in relationships if you can have conversations, 0:11:40.000 --> 0:11:44.000 important conversations, right. Have you used it in that way? No, 0:11:44.080 --> 0:11:46.560 I haven't. I've only used it, and I mean that's 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:48.440 a good idea, though. I've only used it to like 0:11:48.520 --> 0:11:50.200 have a good time, you know, M D M a. 0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:53.680 That is, but no, I haven't. I'd recommend it. I 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:57.040 mean it's just because it gives people the ability both 0:11:57.080 --> 0:12:00.480 to listen it more deeply than they normally worried, dissolves 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:03.120 the defenses, and also to speak in a way that's 0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:05.920 more and pathic in a way. And so I think 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:08.000 you know when it was first kind of when it's 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:10.920 uses were first kind of rediscovered, the seventies, it was 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:13.440 known as the couple's therapy drug and it was most 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:15.440 famous for that type of use. And now, when we 0:12:15.480 --> 0:12:18.320 see it emerging for use with respect to PTSD and 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:20.880 things like that, it really has a very valuable role 0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:23.520 to play. So I strongly encourage it. As long as 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:26.120 it worked well for you. I should also say that 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:27.800 I think when it comes to stopping, I know a 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:30.920 lot more guys who says it doesn't work for me anymore, 0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:34.360 whereas women seem to get this is no no research 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:37.560 on this, just impressionistic. Women seem to get more value 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:40.640 of it for a longer time. Interesting. And what about 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:42.480 tell me a little bit about mescaline. I've never had 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:45.800 any experience with mescaline either. I don't think so. Well, 0:12:45.840 --> 0:12:47.600 you know, you can get it in the refined version, 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:49.439 which is the way I did it. That other two 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:52.320 ways is it comes from the Peyote Cactus, which is 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:55.280 the one that's used in indigenous ceremonies, native American church. 0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:58.080 And now people are mostly people are being discouraged from 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:00.840 using payote because there's a limited apply and you don't 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:04.320 want to deprive native American church members and indigenous peoples 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:06.400 of having access to it. But there's a plant called 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:09.880 San Pedro which is also a source of Mescalin. So 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:12.120 I would say I did it. The one time I 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:14.959 did it I found that a lot like a mushroom experience. 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:18.920 It can be maybe a little bit longer. It was 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:21.600 before the invention of LSD in the forties or just 0:13:21.720 --> 0:13:23.520 you know, a creation of LSD in the forties. It 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:26.400 was the most popular of the psychedelics. Like I just 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:28.760 interviewed somebody on my podcasts, like go active Mike J 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:31.960 wrote a wonderful history of this whole thing. Michael Pollen, 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:34.120 who has written that wonderful book changed and how to 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:37.160 change your mind about psychedelics. He has a new book 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:39.800 where he talks about his mescaline news. So I would 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:43.160 say it's worth trying. Some people may prefer it to 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:48.880 LSD or two mushrooms. I don't think it's radically different though. Okay, 0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:52.760 so it's in that same family. And what about your experience? 0:13:52.800 --> 0:13:55.880 You said Iowaska. Have you done that multiple times? You know, 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:58.400 I did it for the first time about twenty years ago. 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:00.520 I had a great experience. Then I did it a 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:03.280 few years later in the context of a religious ceremony, 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:06.040 something the Brazilian church called Santo dime, although I did 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:08.720 it in a loft in New York, but in that modality. 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:11.440 And then since that time I haven't really done the 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:15.520 full blowing ones. I've been at gatherings with a sort 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:19.120 of guide where they have low dose Ayahuasca mixed in 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:22.160 with other things. I've never gone down all South America 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:23.840 to do it in the jungle. I saw you did 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:26.440 that for the TV show you did on Netflix. I 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:28.080 know a lot of people have done it that way. 0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:30.800 So it's not been a drug I've gone back to 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:33.520 many times, although I would definitely do it again. I 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:35.760 would definitely do it again. You know, I'm one of 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:37.800 the few people, like most people, throw up when they 0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:39.400 do it, you know, and you're supposed to throw up 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:41.840 because it helps to purge, but I didn't throw up. 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:45.160 I didn't throw up either. Oh No, I did throw up. Sorry, 0:14:45.200 --> 0:14:48.320 I did. Yeah, I thought you were talking about the 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:50.680 other outlet, because they say you can sometimes, you know, 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:53.360 go to the back to with respect to that second time, 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:55.520 I did it. Nothing happened during the ceremony, but in 0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:58.880 the following days that other outlet was quite active. Oh well, 0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:01.920 that's good to know. Thank you for filling me in. Yeah, sure. 0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:04.880 Do you find age at all to be a prohibitor 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:07.840 in any of these drugs we're talking about? You don't. 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:09.720 I'll tell you I think. First of as I say, 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:11.480 as I've got an older m DMA is not really 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:14.080 doing it for me. Marijuana continues to be my friend 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:17.080 after all these years. I think if you don't have 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:20.640 issues like, for example, I don't have any. I'm very 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:23.920 healthy for my age, so I don't worry about cardiovasculate issues. 0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:26.880 If you feel vulnerable Cardiovastro Y, you have to be 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:29.120 careful with taking a drug that could really, you know, 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:32.280 get your heart going in a serious way. I've never 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:34.600 been on antidepressants, but if you are, you know you 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:37.520 can't be an antidepressants and be doing Ayahuasca because, as 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:40.360 I've got, a toxic combination like. One thing I've gotten 0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:43.160 into in recent years is doing LSD, not at the 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:46.360 macro dose, with the heroic dose, the big dose, and 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:48.400 and not so much at the micro dose, the five 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:50.560 or ten micrograms, but doing what I would call a 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:53.960 mini dose of like twenty or thirty micrograms, which is 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:56.760 enough to make you feel you're under the influence of something, 0:15:56.840 --> 0:15:59.160 but you're not really having any visions, you're not way 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:02.520 out there, and I will say that the following day 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:06.920 I just feel exhausted and I think that maybe aging, 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:09.040 but you know, there are people who just keep doing 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:12.080 it into their eighties and older. I mean my view 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:14.200 on the psychedelics has always been there kind of wasted 0:16:14.240 --> 0:16:17.320 on the young, and I tend to think about them. 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:18.960 I let's give it. Gave a speech and I said, 0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:21.160 you know, I think about doing psychedelics the way I 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:23.800 think about Ya'm keep poor. You know, I'm Jewish. I 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:26.120 grew up religious. Right now and not that religious, but 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:29.480 you know, once a year yon't keep poor fast, twenty 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:31.840 five hours, no food, no water, because I think it's 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:33.880 a good thing for getting more in touch with that 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:37.400 spiritual side. And I think the same thing with psychedelics 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:40.640 that a lot of times people, you know, in the forties, fifties, sixties, 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:42.560 seventy say, Oh, I did that when I was young. 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:45.240 But my view is this a good thing to keep 0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:48.320 coming back to at least once a year. It's a 0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:52.560 it's good for stirring up the emotional sediment, the psychological 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:55.040 sediment that builds up as we get older, and I 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:57.360 think the reason that people get scared of it when 0:16:57.360 --> 0:17:00.240 they get older is because it does mean to ring 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:03.000 up that emotional sentiment. It does mean coming to grips 0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:06.000 with things, compromises you made in life, things you've had 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:10.880 to settle for. But I actually think it's a healthy thing, spiritually, 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:13.920 emotionally and probably even physically, to keep doing it as 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:17.800 long as one feels physically able. Wow, well, that's great. 0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:20.240 I love to hear that because I always feel like you, 0:17:20.280 --> 0:17:22.119 at a certain point you have to stop the drugs, 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:24.080 and I think what you're saying is quite the opposite. 0:17:24.080 --> 0:17:27.480 As long as you're continually evolving and exploring, there's no 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:31.160 reason to stop unless you know you have some health limitations. 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:34.280 Exactly exactly, and I seem to try to overcome those 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:36.320 fears that happen as we get over. So many of 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:37.680 my friends who used to do it with me back 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:39.800 in the day now they're worried about it. They're scared 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:42.280 about it, although the truth being that with all the 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:45.440 same able media about psychedelics. Now, with Michael Collin's book 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:47.200 and all the other sorts of things, more and more 0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:49.920 people are expressing interest in doing it who either haven't 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:52.280 done it in many decades or never did it, and 0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:55.840 I think that's an encouraging sign. You know, I mean 0:17:56.520 --> 0:17:59.000 even with marijuana, if you think about it, I remember 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:01.640 when we started legal marijuana, first for medical and then 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:04.439 more broadly in the various states with all the ballot initiatives, 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:07.320 and people would say you just you watch, adolescent use 0:18:07.440 --> 0:18:10.560 is gonna Skyrocket, and my response to them would be, 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:14.920 I don't think so, because teenagers already have easy availability 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:17.560 in marijuana and we're not legalizing it for them. So 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:19.919 why is it gonna go up so much? And I 0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:22.160 said the real increase in use is gonna be among 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:25.639 people in their fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties and nineties. And 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:27.919 I'll tell you. You know, five, ten years since we 0:18:27.920 --> 0:18:31.000 started legalizing marijuana or in states around the country, there's 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:34.600 been virtually no jump in adolescent marijuana use, which would 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:37.920 be something you'd worry about. But meanwhile among people like 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:40.240 you know, people in their sixties seventies, there like a 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:43.760 quadrupling of us because people are finding it valuable. They're 0:18:43.800 --> 0:18:46.560 finding it, you know, that they find they prefer to alcohol, 0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:49.120 they find it helps with sleep or aches and pains, 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:51.760 or or maybe it helps to spice up a sexual 0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:54.760 relationship with the person you've been married to for decades, right. 0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:57.199 I mean, it's got all these sorts of benefits, and 0:18:57.240 --> 0:19:00.639 so I think the benefits of psychoactive us and especially 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:03.919 on it's like cannabis and Psychedelics, I think they're underestimated 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:07.560 in terms of being positively connected with healthy aging. Do 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:10.280 you think that the dosage is important, as you aged? 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:12.680 I mean because the micro docing is really what everybody's 0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:16.760 on about now, and guided journeys with whatever drug of choice, 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:20.679 whether it's a micro dose of LSD or Psilocybin or ketamine. 0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:24.480 Do you think that that has an impact? Well, it's 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:27.760 so hard to know. I mean with micro docing, some 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:31.159 people have claimed it's little more than a placebo and 0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:35.800 other people have claimed released significant benefit from microdocing. Usually 0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:38.399 means taking between a tenth to the Twentie of the 0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:42.240