WEBVTT - Crypto’s New Class of Kingpins

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<v Speaker 1>This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily Bloomberg I heard podcast,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael, Managing editor of Crypto for Bloomberg.

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<v Speaker 1>Mus It's Wednesday, October. First there were the miners, and now,

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<v Speaker 1>in the aftermath of the Ethereum merge, there's a new

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<v Speaker 1>class of blockchain participants in town. These are the builders.

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<v Speaker 1>But what exactly do these builders do and why are

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<v Speaker 1>ethereum critics so worried about them? For insights on these questions,

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<v Speaker 1>we've got Bloomberg Crypto repost as Olga Karife and David

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<v Speaker 1>pat Olga David. What a pleasure to have you both

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<v Speaker 1>in the studio in the case of David and Vert

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<v Speaker 1>trually in this studio. In the case of Olga David,

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<v Speaker 1>why don't you introduce yourself? My name is David pant

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<v Speaker 1>I'm a crypto reporter at Bloomberg. I cover crypto mining.

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<v Speaker 1>Olga hi Um, I'm Olga Kreif. I'm a crypto reporter

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<v Speaker 1>here at Bloomberg um for all kinds of stuff um,

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<v Speaker 1>including happenings and upgrades on Ethereum. And it's great to

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<v Speaker 1>be here Ethereum. I feel like we talked about that

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<v Speaker 1>a lot, because there's been a lot going on. One

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<v Speaker 1>of the things that was going on was the Merge,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's so weird that so many thousands of people

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<v Speaker 1>spent years like preparing for this thing, worrying about this thing,

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<v Speaker 1>criticizing this thing, thinking this thing was never gonna happen,

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<v Speaker 1>and now we're like, yeah, it's totally happened. We've moved on,

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<v Speaker 1>we're in there, We're in the new era. As part

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<v Speaker 1>of that new era, you know, both of you have

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<v Speaker 1>worked on various stories about let's call it premerge and

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<v Speaker 1>post merge, where premerge, the more important players in a

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<v Speaker 1>proof of work ecosystem are some folks called miners. In

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<v Speaker 1>a post merge ecosystem, you're starting to hear words like

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<v Speaker 1>builders and you know, validators, And what I would love

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<v Speaker 1>for you both to explain to our audiences is why

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<v Speaker 1>these builders matter, what they do and where they came from.

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<v Speaker 1>And all girls start with you. Sure, So, before the merge,

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<v Speaker 1>it was a fairly simple system. There were the miners

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<v Speaker 1>and that was pretty much it. The miners essentially organized

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<v Speaker 1>the Ethereum blockchain. And then after the merge, what was

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<v Speaker 1>changed was they got rid of the miners. They did

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<v Speaker 1>this because the miners consumed a lot of energy. They

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<v Speaker 1>used they were basically very powerful computers that were used

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<v Speaker 1>to order transactions from the network. And instead of the miners,

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<v Speaker 1>they now have three types of parties that essentially do

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<v Speaker 1>the same job. They're valid laders, their builders, and their relays.

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<v Speaker 1>And essentially the builders they package transactions into blocks, they

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<v Speaker 1>passed them onto relays, and the relays delivered the blocks

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<v Speaker 1>to validators who ordered the blocks into the block chain.

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<v Speaker 1>So this is the new world order, if you will,

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<v Speaker 1>in this new world order, David, what are some of

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<v Speaker 1>the things that folks are criticizing right now? Yeah, one

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<v Speaker 1>of the major things is UM the higher level of

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<v Speaker 1>concentration compared to pre merge era UM, because before the

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<v Speaker 1>merge there literally like hundreds of thousands of miners who

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<v Speaker 1>are UM, you know, validating the transaction data on the

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<v Speaker 1>Etherum network. But after the emerge, we're seeing essentially centralized

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<v Speaker 1>the entities like KIM and other like uh staking services

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<v Speaker 1>providers UM just a handful of them who are kind

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<v Speaker 1>of like UNI responsible for providing the staking of services

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<v Speaker 1>and performing the same tasks that were you know, they

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<v Speaker 1>used to be performed by the miners. So if I

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<v Speaker 1>were to phrase that a different way, the big criticism,

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<v Speaker 1>if I'm hearing what you're saying correctly, is that we

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<v Speaker 1>went from this ecosystem in which lots of people or

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<v Speaker 1>lots of computers were equally important and kind of performing

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<v Speaker 1>these key tasks. But in this transition, it's a smaller

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<v Speaker 1>number of important entities that are performing these key tasks,

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<v Speaker 1>and as a result, folks are concerned about the risks

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<v Speaker 1>of concentration and centralization, which are two words the people

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<v Speaker 1>who are fans of crypto are allergic to. This is

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<v Speaker 1>in contrast to like mining bitcoin, because I feel like

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<v Speaker 1>on our own stories, whenever we do a story about

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<v Speaker 1>bitcoin miners, is always like these gigantic data centers litt

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<v Speaker 1>and green, and there's lots of computers in them and

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<v Speaker 1>humming and noise. And then you know, you had the

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<v Speaker 1>story about Etherea miners, and I was like, here are

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<v Speaker 1>some people in their apartments and they have laptops, and

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<v Speaker 1>so it seemed like it was possible for people who

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<v Speaker 1>weren't large corporations to be Ethereal miners. Pre merge is

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<v Speaker 1>not correct exactly, and now post merge not only are

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<v Speaker 1>those folks like out of a job, as it were,

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<v Speaker 1>but they've been replaced by much bigger, spendier, centralized entity.

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<v Speaker 1>One clear example that shows that there will be a

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<v Speaker 1>higher level of centralization often emerged is that it required

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<v Speaker 1>the protocol requires at least thirty two ether two you

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<v Speaker 1>know to participate in inter state process. Hello. That my

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<v Speaker 1>name's Moses and I'm one of the producers on the

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<v Speaker 1>bloom Book Crypto podcast. Before we carry on, I'm going

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<v Speaker 1>to quickly break down some of the terms that we

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<v Speaker 1>use on today's episode. Firstly, we have steaking. Now you

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<v Speaker 1>can think of staking like a kind of crypto collateral

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<v Speaker 1>where you agree to lock up your crypto for specific

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<v Speaker 1>amount of time, allowing others to make transactions with your

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<v Speaker 1>digital assets, and in return you earn a reward or

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<v Speaker 1>get paid a yield thirty two ether thirty two okay

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<v Speaker 1>either yep. And if I just made jump in, so

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<v Speaker 1>it's possible for people to contribute less ether and join

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<v Speaker 1>a pool UH and become part of a validator pool.

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<v Speaker 1>But but so so there are issues with concentration and ethereum.

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<v Speaker 1>Now in all three of this UH kind of new

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<v Speaker 1>parts that have been created and emerged. So with validators,

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<v Speaker 1>the problem is that you know, all these people who

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<v Speaker 1>did not have thirty two ether they a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>them joined lido, which is a staking pool, which now

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<v Speaker 1>controls about of all staking power and ethereum. Other people

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<v Speaker 1>UH started staking through coin Base, which now controls about

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<v Speaker 1>another thirteen percent of validator power and ethereum. So together

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<v Speaker 1>they the two entities add up to forty three of

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<v Speaker 1>validator power and ethereum. But experts that I talked to

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<v Speaker 1>said that, you know, it's enough to have for somebody

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<v Speaker 1>to have thirty about thirty three of validator power to

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<v Speaker 1>actually start messing with the network, so allowing double spend

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<v Speaker 1>and so forth. And of course you know, most people say, well,

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<v Speaker 1>we don't expect something like this to happen with coin Base,

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<v Speaker 1>We don't expect this to happen with lido um. But

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<v Speaker 1>you know, looking at ledo for instance, it um it

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<v Speaker 1>is a network of a lot of different validators, but

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<v Speaker 1>it's controlled by by light O through software and light

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<v Speaker 1>or somebody at light it could potentially make, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>decisions that maybe it's community would not want made. Coming

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<v Speaker 1>up more from Bloomberg reports, Olga Careife and David Pan

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<v Speaker 1>on how builders could shake up Ethereum's landscape. There are

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<v Speaker 1>people who believe that the only way forward in constructing

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<v Speaker 1>a blockchain is something that looks and sounds like bitcoin

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<v Speaker 1>and it's built on proof of work, And there are

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<v Speaker 1>folks who are like, absolutely not, proof of steak is

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<v Speaker 1>the way of the future. Where do you all think

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<v Speaker 1>the like the reality of the ecosystem is going, like,

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<v Speaker 1>are we going to see more people really looking at

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<v Speaker 1>this proof of state movement saying like, yeah, I want

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<v Speaker 1>to move forward here? Are we going to see people

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<v Speaker 1>like really doubling down on proof of work because they're like,

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<v Speaker 1>we're worried about these concentration risks. Yes, there's other risk

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<v Speaker 1>associated with bitcoin, but this seems like a better trade

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<v Speaker 1>off to us. Well, it seems like in in blockchain

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<v Speaker 1>there has always been people a trade off between like

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<v Speaker 1>do you get more centralization or do you get more security?

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<v Speaker 1>So it's it's uh, and I think a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>decentralization that people think exists in blockchain is actually a

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<v Speaker 1>myth because for instance, uh, you know, people love this

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<v Speaker 1>idea that you know, everything in blockchain is run by

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<v Speaker 1>smart contracts. A smart contract now a smart contractor is

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<v Speaker 1>code which lives on the blockchain that operates automatically when

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<v Speaker 1>certain conditions are met. There's no human involvement, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>it's all fair and square, nobody can interfere, etcetera, etcetera.

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<v Speaker 1>But actually it turns out that, for instance, a ethereum,

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<v Speaker 1>most smart contracts actually have a back door. It's called

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<v Speaker 1>an admin key, and you know, certain people can go

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<v Speaker 1>in and change sometimes everything about the smart contract depending

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<v Speaker 1>on how the keys have been set up. And I

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<v Speaker 1>think this is true to a lot of other um

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<v Speaker 1>parts of the blockchain ecosystem, if you will. Uh. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>what people are finding out is that very often, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>to manage something well, you need a little bit more centralization.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, for instance, one problem with the dows uh,

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<v Speaker 1>the centralized autonomous organizations is that you know, they're very

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<v Speaker 1>hard to manage. You know, a group of people, random

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<v Speaker 1>people from around the world has a very hard time

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<v Speaker 1>sometimes coming to consensus and making decisions and proposing things.

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<v Speaker 1>And so I think some amount of um a move

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<v Speaker 1>to more centralization sort of is probably a normal part

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<v Speaker 1>of making things more manageable and making them more better. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>and you also hear this opposite argument from Bitcoin purists

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<v Speaker 1>and maxis um. You know, they are fully I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>Bitcoin network is arguably the most essentialized the network, and

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<v Speaker 1>it's really hard to control because it's literally you know,

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<v Speaker 1>validated by miners, by computers, and it's hard that mutability

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<v Speaker 1>is really high for bitcoins, for the Bitcoin network. But

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<v Speaker 1>we also see the very um serious issues in terms

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<v Speaker 1>of scalability and also the network efficiency. Uh So that's

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<v Speaker 1>one of the reasons why it has been really hard

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<v Speaker 1>and time consuming to develop any kind of commercially viable

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<v Speaker 1>UM projects on Bitcoin in terms of like payment or

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<v Speaker 1>even aims or other things that that could be developed.

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<v Speaker 1>All your theory, I think the challenges that you know,

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<v Speaker 1>this is like arguing over whether cake is better than pie.

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<v Speaker 1>It's pie, just for the record. But the UM because

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<v Speaker 1>you know, folks who are on the Bitcoin side of

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<v Speaker 1>the house will say like, well, actually, we don't want

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<v Speaker 1>to be a layer for gaming, right like we're bitcoin,

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<v Speaker 1>we don't, we don't. You can you can take your

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<v Speaker 1>n f T s and whatever it is that you're

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<v Speaker 1>trying to do, Like that's not interesting to us. UM.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's almost as if the incentives or another way

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<v Speaker 1>of thinking about this is it seems like as we

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<v Speaker 1>get more and more specialized approaches to blockchains, what you're

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<v Speaker 1>gonna find is that there are going to be very

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<v Speaker 1>few one size fits all applications, and that you know,

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<v Speaker 1>this seems to be kind of forcing a lot more

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<v Speaker 1>if not necessarily sophistication, at least more nuance in terms

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<v Speaker 1>of I am trying to solve this specific kind of

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<v Speaker 1>problem for the kind of problem I'm trying to solve, Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>Bitcoin is gonna work fine for me, or actually I'm

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<v Speaker 1>going to need to do this ethereum, or I'm going

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<v Speaker 1>to need to do this on some other blockain. Absolutely,

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<v Speaker 1>I think that's exactly sort of why I completely agree

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<v Speaker 1>with this. Uh. There are so many different block chains

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<v Speaker 1>with such different structures, uh that, and some are supposed

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<v Speaker 1>to be better for for gaming, others are supposed to

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<v Speaker 1>better to be better for m decentralized financial applications, and

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<v Speaker 1>they each have vastly different designs in a lot of cases.

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<v Speaker 1>And so that's a chance for people to pick kind

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<v Speaker 1>of what they believe and and and what they feel

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<v Speaker 1>comfortable with. Yeah, and I would say like as we

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<v Speaker 1>go into a more sophisticated stage of the blockchain, industry.

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<v Speaker 1>We're also seeing more niche pitches from from individual different

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<v Speaker 1>blockchain projects. You know, some some of them maybe they

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<v Speaker 1>may be targeting people who are whole prioritized privacy. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>they're also prov like zero knowledge mechanism for certain blockchains,

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<v Speaker 1>and when we when we talk about zero knowledge, it's

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<v Speaker 1>basically making it really hard for somebody to know who

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<v Speaker 1>you are um, which is of course an arms race

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<v Speaker 1>between the FEDS and everyone else. Olga, David, always a

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<v Speaker 1>pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you so

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<v Speaker 1>much for being here. Thank you, it's great to be here.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you, Thank you, Olga, and thank you David. You

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<v Speaker 1>can find more of Olga and David's reporting on the

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Terminal, on Bloomberg dot com or on Twitter. Olga

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<v Speaker 1>is at Olga Karif that's O l G A K

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<v Speaker 1>H A r I F and David is at David

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<v Speaker 1>Pan Underscore one that's d A v I D P

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<v Speaker 1>A N Underscore and then the number one on the

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<v Speaker 1>next episode of Bloomberg Crypto. It used to be that

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<v Speaker 1>if you were a crypto start up, you could raise

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<v Speaker 1>money with pretty much nothing more than a website and

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<v Speaker 1>a smile. Really, but as the crypto winter comes for

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<v Speaker 1>basically everyone, fundraising is getting more challenging. So who's still

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<v Speaker 1>in the game and when is a down round not

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<v Speaker 1>a down round. This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily podcast

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<v Speaker 1>from Bloomberg and I Heart Radio. For more shows from

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<v Speaker 1>I Heeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

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<v Speaker 1>or wherever you get your podcasts. Send us your comments, questions,

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<v Speaker 1>or suggestions for the show to Crypto at Bloomberg dot

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<v Speaker 1>net or find us on Twitter. We're at Crypto. The

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<v Speaker 1>supervising producer of Bloomberg Crypto is Vicky very Galina. Our

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<v Speaker 1>senior producer is Janet Babin. Our producers are Mohammed Faruk

0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:47.640
<v Speaker 1>and Sharon Barriro. Our associate producers are Ty Butler and

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<v Speaker 1>Moses on Them. Desta wonder At is our engineer. Original

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<v Speaker 1>music by Leo Sidrn. I'm Stacy Marie Schmal. We'll be

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<v Speaker 1>back tomorrow. End of an appetisbo that an instant and

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<v Speaker 1>imp