WEBVTT - Camouflage Bias: Part 1 0:00:15.316 --> 0:00:22.636 Pushkin. Hey, it's Jake. I want to let you know 0:00:22.996 --> 0:00:25.356 we are working right now on season three for you, 0:00:25.636 --> 0:00:27.676 and it's a totally different kind of story than you've 0:00:27.716 --> 0:00:30.916 heard before on this podcast. I've actually been flying all 0:00:30.916 --> 0:00:33.436 over the country reporting it and I can't wait to 0:00:33.476 --> 0:00:37.076 share it with you. But first, Deep Cover is back 0:00:37.436 --> 0:00:40.676 with two special episodes which are kind of a spinoff 0:00:40.676 --> 0:00:46.636 of season two. So let's jump right in. About a 0:00:46.676 --> 0:00:49.876 year ago, there was this pretty unusual hearing in Chicago. 0:00:50.476 --> 0:00:54.436 It involved a guy named Ronnie Karskio who was imprisoned 0:00:54.436 --> 0:00:57.396 for murder. I've been following the facts of his case 0:00:57.476 --> 0:01:01.156 pretty closely. We actually sent someone to record the proceedings 0:01:01.196 --> 0:01:06.436 that day. You're right, could you say your full name, 0:01:08.276 --> 0:01:13.436 Ronnie Cowski. I was interested in this hearing because it was, 0:01:13.996 --> 0:01:17.716 in a strange way connected to the story of Bob Cooley. 0:01:19.036 --> 0:01:22.276 Back in the nineteen nineties, when Bob exposed the corruption 0:01:22.356 --> 0:01:25.876 that was going on in Chicago, there were ripple effects. 0:01:26.756 --> 0:01:30.956 These ripple effects they played out for decades. Ronnie's hearing 0:01:30.996 --> 0:01:34.836 in Chicago, it was one of these ripples. It all 0:01:34.836 --> 0:01:37.796 started back in the nineteen seventies with the trial of 0:01:37.836 --> 0:01:42.316 Harry Laman a mob hitman, remember him. This was the 0:01:42.396 --> 0:01:47.356 big case from season two. Harry had stone gold eyes. 0:01:48.196 --> 0:01:51.516 He just did. Harry looked pure evil. If you ever 0:01:51.516 --> 0:01:53.676 watched the movie Scarface, kind of reminds you of the 0:01:53.716 --> 0:01:56.196 guy walks up behind Scarface with shotgun at the end. 0:01:58.236 --> 0:02:01.396 Harry went on trial for murder and the mob called 0:02:01.436 --> 0:02:04.916 him Bob Cooley to fix the case. Bob claimed he 0:02:05.036 --> 0:02:10.076 bribed the judge, a guy named Frank Wilson, and the hitman, Well, 0:02:10.116 --> 0:02:15.116 he got off. The not guilty verdict sparked controversy and outrage. 0:02:17.076 --> 0:02:18.716 So what does any of this have to do with 0:02:18.836 --> 0:02:23.796 Ronnie Well? Ronnie's original trial took place seven months after 0:02:23.876 --> 0:02:28.316 Harry Alaman's. It was another high profile murder trial. Because 0:02:28.316 --> 0:02:31.716 the guy Ronnie was accused of murdering he was a cop. 0:02:32.476 --> 0:02:35.876 The case got assigned to the same judge, Frank Wilson. 0:02:37.276 --> 0:02:41.076 Now forty five years later, Ronnie is arguing that he 0:02:41.276 --> 0:02:45.756 was in effect a victim, that the sentence he received 0:02:45.876 --> 0:02:49.076 was deeply unfair. The judge Wilson was just trying to 0:02:49.116 --> 0:02:52.356 burnish his credentials to show he was in fact tough 0:02:52.396 --> 0:02:55.036 on crime, and that because of all of this and 0:02:55.076 --> 0:02:57.836 other reasons too. Ronnie is arguing that he should have 0:02:57.836 --> 0:03:02.596 another shot at justice. So over the next two episodes, 0:03:03.036 --> 0:03:06.436 I'll be telling you this story about someone whose life 0:03:06.436 --> 0:03:09.076 has been shaped by the corruption that hung over Chicago 0:03:09.516 --> 0:03:13.476 for decades, and how even now twenty and twenty two, 0:03:14.076 --> 0:03:19.076 it's still playing out dramatically as one man's freedom hangs 0:03:19.076 --> 0:03:23.356 in the balance, because well, Ronnie's been in prison for 0:03:23.516 --> 0:03:26.836 almost half a century, and now his lawyer is asking 0:03:26.956 --> 0:03:29.756 all of us to open up the history books, to 0:03:29.756 --> 0:03:33.116 take a good hard look at what really happened in 0:03:33.196 --> 0:03:45.996 the shadows, and then to let his client walk free. 0:04:00.956 --> 0:04:05.356 I'm Jay Calburn and this is a deep cover mob lend. 0:04:37.556 --> 0:04:40.516 My name is Ronnie cars Gaio and a C. A 0:04:40.756 --> 0:04:44.396 R R A s q U ill Oh. Ronnie talks 0:04:44.396 --> 0:04:46.236 to me on a pay phone from his cell block. 0:04:46.516 --> 0:04:50.716 I'm currently sixty three years old. He's sixty four years old. 0:04:50.716 --> 0:04:53.876 In a couple of weeks, I'm currently residing in the 0:04:53.956 --> 0:04:58.476 Disincorrectional Center in Illinois. We've been communicating for a few 0:04:58.476 --> 0:05:01.756 months now. When he calls, a timer starts and we 0:05:01.836 --> 0:05:05.796 have exactly twenty minutes before were disconnected, which means there's 0:05:05.836 --> 0:05:08.476 really not a lot of time for chit Chad and Ronnie. 0:05:08.516 --> 0:05:10.476 He is a lot to tell me about his life 0:05:10.716 --> 0:05:13.836 and where and when it all started to go wrong. Yeah, 0:05:13.836 --> 0:05:16.156 I grew up in a gang infest the neighborhoods. I 0:05:16.196 --> 0:05:19.236 grew up with a single mother, uneducated, a father's divorce 0:05:19.716 --> 0:05:23.036 when we were young kids back in the nineteen seventies. 0:05:23.236 --> 0:05:25.796 Ronnie was a poor Puerto Rican kid from the Humboldt 0:05:25.836 --> 0:05:29.196 Park neighborhood of Chicago. His dad was a chef who 0:05:29.236 --> 0:05:32.796 immigrated from Puerto Rico. Ronnie he joined a gang at 0:05:32.796 --> 0:05:35.356 an early age. He was a tough kid. He got 0:05:35.356 --> 0:05:38.516 a tattoo on his arm that read mad Dog ron 0:05:39.276 --> 0:05:42.796 He was eleven at the time. His mom died when 0:05:42.796 --> 0:05:45.436 he was fifteen, and in the years that followed, he 0:05:45.516 --> 0:05:50.156 found himself in some pretty dicey situations. And that brings 0:05:50.236 --> 0:05:53.156 us to the night that changed his entire life. It 0:05:53.316 --> 0:05:57.196 was October of nineteen seventy six. Ronnie was eighteen years old. 0:05:57.996 --> 0:06:00.836 That night. Ronnie says he was in rough shape because 0:06:00.876 --> 0:06:03.916 he'd been stabbed about a month before, But he says 0:06:03.956 --> 0:06:06.996 his friends they convinced him to go out early in 0:06:07.036 --> 0:06:11.756 the evening. We went through a party, and what happened 0:06:11.756 --> 0:06:14.556 in this party started six seven o'clock at night. Everybody's 0:06:14.596 --> 0:06:20.076 drinking all that long, so everybody's consuming alcohol, Ronnie says. 0:06:20.116 --> 0:06:22.956 At some point, someone at the party stepped out and 0:06:23.036 --> 0:06:25.876 went to a local tavern to get change for the bus, 0:06:26.596 --> 0:06:29.996 and that's when the trouble started. It was a dark 0:06:30.036 --> 0:06:34.236 skin Puerto Rican Latino. The Caucasians in the bar felt like, 0:06:34.356 --> 0:06:35.876 what are you doing in here? You don't belong here. 0:06:36.156 --> 0:06:39.276 He chased them out. Now the place where I was 0:06:39.396 --> 0:06:42.516 seventy five people, maybe a hundred people in a party. 0:06:42.916 --> 0:06:45.516 They all ran down the street to go get in 0:06:45.556 --> 0:06:49.276 the middle of this stuff. The situation quickly escalated into 0:06:49.276 --> 0:06:53.156 a full pitched battle rival gangs, one white the other 0:06:53.196 --> 0:06:56.356 Puerto Rican, like the Jets and the Sharks, the whole 0:06:56.396 --> 0:07:00.916 thing right out of West Side Story, only scarier, violent, chaotic. 0:07:01.596 --> 0:07:05.316 Ronnie says. At first, he didn't do anything. I didn't go. 0:07:05.556 --> 0:07:07.436 I was stayed in the house. I was stamped up. 0:07:07.516 --> 0:07:10.716 I'm just recovering. So I'm the last guy out. When 0:07:10.996 --> 0:07:15.476 you know, towards the inn. As i'm leaving out also building, 0:07:15.596 --> 0:07:17.636 there's a kid in the hallway and he's got a 0:07:17.676 --> 0:07:20.636 gun in his hand. He's telling me the guns jam, 0:07:20.716 --> 0:07:23.396 so I get the gun in my hand. That's why 0:07:23.436 --> 0:07:29.316 I acquired a pistol from So then Ronnie leaves the 0:07:29.356 --> 0:07:36.316 building and then looks around surveys the scene. Now this 0:07:36.396 --> 0:07:40.636 is where the story takes an unexpected turn. There's someone 0:07:40.756 --> 0:07:43.316 mixed up in the melee here who isn't a member 0:07:43.356 --> 0:07:46.036 of Ronnie's gang or a member of the rival White 0:07:46.076 --> 0:07:49.916 gang either. His name was Terence Loftis. He was a 0:07:50.036 --> 0:07:53.316 Chicago police officer, though that wouldn't have been clear because 0:07:53.476 --> 0:07:57.716 he was dressed in civilian clothing. Officer Loftis was there 0:07:57.956 --> 0:08:01.236 totally by chance. He just finished a late shift. He 0:08:01.356 --> 0:08:03.836 was off duty driving down the street when he saw 0:08:03.876 --> 0:08:07.916 this gang battle, and courageously he tried to break it up. 0:08:09.996 --> 0:08:13.156 So there's Officer Loftus. He grabs hold of one of 0:08:13.196 --> 0:08:16.596 the guys in Ronnie's gang. Reports from the time suggest 0:08:16.836 --> 0:08:20.036 that Loftus was trying to help this kid to rescue 0:08:20.116 --> 0:08:23.636 him from the rival gang. Somewhere around this time, a 0:08:23.716 --> 0:08:28.276 pattiwagon with uniform police officers arrives on the scene, and 0:08:28.316 --> 0:08:32.916 then there's Ronnie pistol in hand. It's late almost two 0:08:32.956 --> 0:08:35.516 in the morning, Ronnie's about one hundred and fifty feet 0:08:35.516 --> 0:08:38.636 away from Officer loftus. I've seen everybody wearing a round, 0:08:38.636 --> 0:08:40.956 so I said, has fired a gun, and there's a 0:08:40.996 --> 0:08:43.836 break off and they're going to run. So Ronnie says 0:08:43.836 --> 0:08:46.396 he decided to fire the gun at an angle above 0:08:46.436 --> 0:08:49.476 everyone's head to try and scatter the crowd, break things 0:08:49.556 --> 0:08:52.036 up with a few warning shots, you know, like a 0:08:52.076 --> 0:08:55.276 sheriff might do in some old timey Western. Only Ronnie 0:08:55.556 --> 0:08:59.556 he was eighteen and intoxicated. Ronnie said he had no 0:08:59.636 --> 0:09:02.036 idea there was a plain closed cop there. He also 0:09:02.076 --> 0:09:05.076 says he never intended to shoot anyone. After all, many 0:09:05.076 --> 0:09:07.356 of the people in the crowd they were his own friends, 0:09:07.676 --> 0:09:12.636 and shooting into the crowd would have endangered them. And 0:09:12.756 --> 0:09:17.356 that's why Ronnie claims he aimed up above head level. Now, 0:09:17.356 --> 0:09:21.636 this detail right here of where exactly Ronnie aimed his gun, 0:09:21.956 --> 0:09:26.476 it's hugely important. It's everything, really, and there's still disagreement 0:09:26.516 --> 0:09:30.196 over this to this day. A forensic investigation found that 0:09:30.436 --> 0:09:33.396 three of the bullets struck an abandoned building several feet 0:09:33.436 --> 0:09:36.876 above head level. This would seem to corroborate Ronnie's claim 0:09:36.916 --> 0:09:39.996 that he was aiming the gun up, not anyone in particular, 0:09:40.996 --> 0:09:43.956 but there was at least one more bullet, and this 0:09:43.996 --> 0:09:48.076 one it struck Officer Loftus in the head. His body 0:09:48.356 --> 0:09:52.796 then crumpled to the ground. Officer Loftus was taken to 0:09:52.836 --> 0:10:07.156 Saint Elizabeth's Hospital. He died a few days later. Ronnie 0:10:07.196 --> 0:10:11.836 was charged with murder. Secutors said Ronnie had quote intentionally 0:10:11.956 --> 0:10:15.956 and knowingly shot Officer Loftis, meaning he aimed the gun 0:10:16.276 --> 0:10:19.636 with the intent of killing him. At trial, one of 0:10:19.716 --> 0:10:24.036 Ronnie's buddy's fellow gang member testified. He said that Ronnie 0:10:24.076 --> 0:10:26.756 aimed the gun with both hands and held at level 0:10:27.196 --> 0:10:30.756 like he was aiming for Loftis. Now I should note 0:10:30.796 --> 0:10:33.716 that this buddy he may have been under real pressure 0:10:33.756 --> 0:10:37.676 to testify for the prosecution. See the gun belonged to him, 0:10:38.156 --> 0:10:41.036 so he could have been an accessory to murder. He 0:10:41.156 --> 0:10:44.716 was never prosecuted, by the way, so there were conflicting 0:10:44.756 --> 0:10:48.876 accounts of where the gun was pointed. But Ronnie maintains 0:10:48.916 --> 0:10:52.436 that he wasn't aiming at anyone. So I just fired 0:10:52.476 --> 0:10:55.516 four shots and I left. I walked out in run. 0:10:55.716 --> 0:10:58.436 I didn't know I shot anybody. I went walked up 0:10:58.436 --> 0:11:00.476 back in the house, I walked out of back door 0:11:00.516 --> 0:11:03.396 and I left. All right, Before we get any deeper, 0:11:03.676 --> 0:11:07.356 something I should mention about this trial. Ronnie he opted 0:11:07.356 --> 0:11:11.556 for a bench trial, no jury, just a judge deciding 0:11:11.596 --> 0:11:15.196 the outcome of his case. His trial attorney anticipated that 0:11:15.236 --> 0:11:17.276 there'd be a ton of cops in the courtroom to 0:11:17.316 --> 0:11:20.796 show their support for the slain officer. The attorney worried 0:11:20.836 --> 0:11:23.996 that a jury might be swayed by this, so it 0:11:24.076 --> 0:11:27.676 went to a judge. The case was assigned to Judge 0:11:27.756 --> 0:11:31.476 Frank Wilson, yep, the same judge who acquitted the hitman, 0:11:31.756 --> 0:11:35.996 Harry Alaman. Ronnie's lawyer at the time hoped that Judge 0:11:35.996 --> 0:11:40.836 Wilson would conclude that technically, legally this wasn't murder, that 0:11:40.916 --> 0:11:44.916 it was manslaughter. The decision to forego a trial by 0:11:44.956 --> 0:11:47.716 jury it was a big one. Judge Wilson would now 0:11:47.796 --> 0:11:51.316 be the sole arbiter of Ronnie's fate. If he decided 0:11:51.396 --> 0:11:54.556 Ronnie was guilty of manslaughter, well that's a lesser crime 0:11:54.596 --> 0:11:58.716 than murder, which would carry a smaller sentence. But if 0:11:58.796 --> 0:12:01.876 Judge Wilson found that Ronnie had intended to kill Officer 0:12:01.956 --> 0:12:05.316 loftus to murder him. Under the rules at the time, 0:12:05.916 --> 0:12:09.796 the judge could throw the book at him. The prosecution 0:12:09.836 --> 0:12:13.476 depicted Ronnie as a cold blooded murderer who deliberately aimed 0:12:13.476 --> 0:12:17.996 and shot the victim. Prosecutors brought another witnesses, friends of Ronnie's, 0:12:17.996 --> 0:12:20.556 who were there that night. One of them testified that 0:12:20.636 --> 0:12:23.796 Ronnie said something like I think I shot a pig. 0:12:24.796 --> 0:12:28.756 In closing arguments, one of the prosecutors said, Ronnie quote 0:12:28.956 --> 0:12:32.396 could not have hit that officer by accident. He shot 0:12:32.476 --> 0:12:37.396 because he had hate in his heart. Judge Wilson found 0:12:37.476 --> 0:12:42.316 Ronnie guilty of murder. Ronnie's current lawyer, Michael Deutsch, still 0:12:42.356 --> 0:12:46.756 can't believe what happened. Next. The judge gave him two 0:12:46.836 --> 0:12:50.196 hundred to six hundred years. Wait did you say six 0:12:50.316 --> 0:12:53.916 hundred years? Two hundred to six hundred years he gave him. 0:12:54.956 --> 0:12:57.036 I don't think I've ever heard of anything like that. 0:12:57.356 --> 0:13:00.116 I mean, in your fifty years of practicing law, have 0:13:00.196 --> 0:13:04.636 you ever seen a sentencing like this. No, never seen 0:13:04.676 --> 0:13:07.996 a sentence like that. And Wilson himself, because we went 0:13:08.076 --> 0:13:11.116 back and looked at all those sentences Wilson is given 0:13:11.116 --> 0:13:14.996 in the past, and all even for murder, all kinds 0:13:15.036 --> 0:13:18.116 of murders, all kinds of He never gave a sentence 0:13:18.196 --> 0:13:21.276 like that, only wants where a guy had a huge 0:13:21.316 --> 0:13:25.636 prior record. Michael Deutsch believes that the timing of all 0:13:25.676 --> 0:13:29.596 of this is suspicious. He notes that the judge had 0:13:29.676 --> 0:13:33.196 just let the hitman, Harry Alaman, walk free, and he 0:13:33.236 --> 0:13:35.836 believes that Wilson wanted to make an example out of 0:13:35.916 --> 0:13:39.516 Ronnie to restore his own reputation as a tough judge. 0:13:40.036 --> 0:13:45.436 Wilson took ten thousand dollars to quit Harry Aliman, and 0:13:45.556 --> 0:13:50.716 now he needed what's called compensatory bias. There's a concept 0:13:50.756 --> 0:13:55.276 in the law known as compensatory or camouflage bias. The 0:13:55.356 --> 0:13:58.276 idea is a judge takes a bribe in one case 0:13:58.676 --> 0:14:02.036 and then, to avoid suspicion, punishes the hell out of 0:14:02.036 --> 0:14:05.556 another defendant in a separate case, so it looks like 0:14:05.636 --> 0:14:09.636 that judge can be tough on crime. Then years later 0:14:09.676 --> 0:14:12.836 the bribe is exposed and the guy who got hit 0:14:12.876 --> 0:14:16.996 with the big sentence, he complains says, Hey, this wasn't fair. 0:14:17.396 --> 0:14:20.196 I got hit with this huge sentence because this corrupt 0:14:20.276 --> 0:14:24.196 judge was covering his tracks. In fact, in the wake 0:14:24.236 --> 0:14:27.556 of Operation Gambat. A number of other defendants have made 0:14:27.596 --> 0:14:31.796 similar claims against other judges in Chicago whose corruption was 0:14:31.836 --> 0:14:36.316 exposed by the FBI. Those defendants are challenging their sentences, 0:14:36.636 --> 0:14:39.156 and that's what Ronnie and his lawyer are doing. They 0:14:39.236 --> 0:14:43.756 believe that Ronnie's enormous sentence was a symptom of Chicago's corruption. 0:14:44.436 --> 0:14:47.476 I'm the one that brought this case to vacate his 0:14:47.596 --> 0:14:51.756 conviction and sentence based on this theory of compensatory bias. 0:14:52.596 --> 0:14:55.236 The judge he needed to cover up what he did. 0:14:55.356 --> 0:14:57.676 It was a lot of how cry about what he did, 0:14:57.756 --> 0:15:00.756 and he was in a situation where he had to 0:15:00.756 --> 0:15:06.836 rehabilitate his reputation. And here is that ripple effect, an 0:15:06.916 --> 0:15:11.356 unintended consequence of Bob Cooley's actions, a consequence that forever 0:15:11.476 --> 0:15:15.316 changed the fate of one man's life. At least that's 0:15:15.316 --> 0:15:35.436 what Ronnie's lawyer is claiming. We'll be right back. It's 0:15:35.516 --> 0:15:38.516 kind of hard to imagine how anyone would react to 0:15:38.516 --> 0:15:42.436 a prison sentence that's two hundred to six hundred years long. 0:15:42.956 --> 0:15:46.276 Can you talk to me about what you remember from 0:15:46.276 --> 0:15:48.756 the day that you were sentenced, when that sentence came down, 0:15:50.116 --> 0:15:52.716 Just like what your reaction was when we went through 0:15:52.756 --> 0:15:56.356 your head. I didn't know what it meant. I was 0:15:56.436 --> 0:15:59.516 that illiterate as a kid. I know that while six 0:15:59.596 --> 0:16:02.236 hundred years I don't know what it meant. It didn't register. 0:16:02.716 --> 0:16:05.196 And when I was in flow, I kept hearing like 0:16:05.316 --> 0:16:06.996 news media will come up to me, or do you 0:16:06.996 --> 0:16:09.396 think about Harry Altiman. I was so in and I 0:16:09.396 --> 0:16:11.316 thought it was a legal term. I didn't know what 0:16:11.356 --> 0:16:15.356 it meant until years later I said, oh, Alum is 0:16:16.036 --> 0:16:21.076 a man's name. To wake up and realize man. Ronnie 0:16:21.076 --> 0:16:25.236 sat in prison for decades. He exhausted his appeals. Then 0:16:25.556 --> 0:16:28.436 a faint hope emerged in the late nineteen nineties when 0:16:28.556 --> 0:16:32.436 Ronnie met Michael Deutsch. Michael's a criminal defense lawyer with 0:16:32.516 --> 0:16:36.116 the People's Law Office in Chicago. He's been doing this 0:16:36.116 --> 0:16:40.956 work for decades. Michael's represented animal rights activists, black panthers, 0:16:41.276 --> 0:16:44.836 and people with wrongful convictions. You've got a social justice 0:16:44.876 --> 0:16:49.276 issue with long shot odds. Michael, he's your man. Michael 0:16:49.276 --> 0:16:52.436 began taking a closer look at Ronnie's case and the 0:16:52.556 --> 0:16:55.676 judge who presided over it. How I got back in 0:16:55.756 --> 0:17:00.796 court with Michael Deutsch fouled a petition that I was 0:17:00.916 --> 0:17:05.436 void jurisdiction, that Frank Wilson had an old business sentence 0:17:05.476 --> 0:17:07.516 to me because he was a crook from the beginning, 0:17:08.196 --> 0:17:11.916 and he CAMOUSI himself as a good judge. Just to 0:17:11.996 --> 0:17:15.316 be clear here, the Harry Alaman case is the only 0:17:15.396 --> 0:17:18.356 case where it was alleged that Judge Wilson took a bribe. 0:17:18.916 --> 0:17:22.356 What's more, neither Ronnie nor his lawyer have any definitive 0:17:22.396 --> 0:17:25.396 proof that Judge Wilson threw his case in any way. 0:17:25.916 --> 0:17:29.916 Ronnie's argument about camouflage bias really hinges on a series 0:17:29.956 --> 0:17:37.036 of speculations. Plausible speculations, but speculations. Nonetheless, the core of 0:17:37.076 --> 0:17:41.076 these speculations come down to this was the judge using 0:17:41.196 --> 0:17:44.836 Ronnie's case to salvage his own reputation. Well, let's start 0:17:44.836 --> 0:17:48.596 by reviewing the facts. After the Harry Alaman trial, there 0:17:48.716 --> 0:17:51.916 was a big outcry. The state's attorney held a press 0:17:51.956 --> 0:17:55.796 conference to express his outrage over the verdict. One state 0:17:55.876 --> 0:17:59.916 legislator called the judge craven. According to Bob Cooley, the 0:17:59.996 --> 0:18:03.676 judge did get very upset after the trial and told Bob, quote, 0:18:04.116 --> 0:18:07.676 you destroyed me. And years later, when the FBI was 0:18:07.716 --> 0:18:12.836 investigating the Alaman and the corruption in Chicago. Wilson killed himself, 0:18:13.876 --> 0:18:17.116 But what does any of this really tell us? For certain? 0:18:17.756 --> 0:18:20.076 Does this explain why the judge handed Ronnie such a 0:18:20.116 --> 0:18:23.356 long sentence? Do we really know how Judge Wilson would 0:18:23.356 --> 0:18:25.876 have ruled at a different time in his career, or 0:18:26.116 --> 0:18:28.996 how another judge would have ruled at the time. We 0:18:29.116 --> 0:18:33.276 simply don't. That's what's so maddening about Ronnie's case and 0:18:33.396 --> 0:18:36.516 what's so insidious about the legacy of corruption in Chicago. 0:18:37.116 --> 0:18:41.196 The ripple effects continue in ways that are so consequential 0:18:41.596 --> 0:18:46.996 and yet also sometimes unprovable. It's odd to think about 0:18:47.556 --> 0:18:51.916 Ronnie Carriscio and Harry Alaman were both gangsters at some 0:18:51.996 --> 0:18:54.596 point in their lives. They both got in trouble with 0:18:54.636 --> 0:18:57.916 the law. They were both charged with murder. One could 0:18:57.996 --> 0:19:00.956 argue that the crucial difference in their fates was that 0:19:01.036 --> 0:19:05.276 Harry's gang simply had more powerful connections, and so he 0:19:05.956 --> 0:19:10.636 walked free. The question is what and Ronnie actually do 0:19:10.796 --> 0:19:14.356 about any of this? Well, what Michael and Ronnie wanted 0:19:14.596 --> 0:19:17.196 was a retrial, a new judge, maybe even a jury 0:19:17.316 --> 0:19:20.156 who could reconsider the facts of the case and determine 0:19:20.196 --> 0:19:23.276 whether Ronnie really was guilty of murder or some lesser 0:19:23.356 --> 0:19:26.436 charge like manslaughter. We had a long hearing in front 0:19:26.476 --> 0:19:31.556 of the judge, and the judge denied us relief, saying 0:19:31.676 --> 0:19:35.996 the law is very difficult to show this because you 0:19:36.196 --> 0:19:39.716 have to show a nexus between the case in which 0:19:39.916 --> 0:19:45.116 the judge was bribed and your case. The court essentially concluded, 0:19:45.556 --> 0:19:48.236 we can't know what Judge Wilson was thinking at the time, 0:19:48.476 --> 0:19:50.796 so we can't know for certain if Ronnie's case was 0:19:50.836 --> 0:19:56.036 influenced by the Alaman acquittal. Would not give me the 0:19:56.156 --> 0:19:59.836 granting of the judge Wilson being a group, saying that 0:20:00.396 --> 0:20:02.836 I did improve a pattern that we didn't know his 0:20:02.956 --> 0:20:04.796 state of mind, and we could improve his state of 0:20:04.836 --> 0:20:08.116 mind as far as being a group. So Michael Bois's 0:20:08.116 --> 0:20:10.916 contention was one he's got phoned up. He shot himself 0:20:10.916 --> 0:20:14.196 on the So Michael Deutsch was contending, how do you say, 0:20:14.276 --> 0:20:16.196 we don't know if the state of mind, you know 0:20:16.276 --> 0:20:18.956 exactly what he was going to do if he got caught, 0:20:18.996 --> 0:20:24.356 and he did do it. Since that Appellet ruling, Ronnie 0:20:24.396 --> 0:20:27.956 and Michael have soldiered on. They remain adamant that the 0:20:27.996 --> 0:20:31.076 facts of the case don't offer any solid proof that 0:20:31.196 --> 0:20:35.836 Ronnie knowingly and deliberately intended to kill this plainclothed policeman. 0:20:36.676 --> 0:20:40.196 But this alone isn't grounds for a retrial. Appeals are 0:20:40.236 --> 0:20:43.556 about challenging how a case was decided and whether the 0:20:43.636 --> 0:20:46.876 law was applied properly. They're not about re examining the 0:20:46.996 --> 0:20:51.236 same set of facts. Again, kind of frustrating, right, This 0:20:51.356 --> 0:20:53.276 is not the kind of drama that you typically see 0:20:53.276 --> 0:20:56.596 on TV, where the story has a clear beginning, middle, 0:20:56.756 --> 0:21:00.396 and end. No, Ronnie's case is dragged on through a 0:21:00.516 --> 0:21:04.516 lengthy process of motions and appeals and petitions, and so 0:21:04.556 --> 0:21:07.916 far they've gotten well, very little in the way of relief, 0:21:08.396 --> 0:21:12.636 and in the meantime time Ronnie remains behind bars. I've 0:21:12.676 --> 0:21:18.436 been incarcerated forty forty five years, like seven months maybe 0:21:18.556 --> 0:21:25.196 like them. That's more than five hundred months, more than 0:21:25.316 --> 0:21:29.996 sixteen thousand days. When he was last free, Jimmy Carter 0:21:30.156 --> 0:21:33.796 was president, the Soviet Union was still going strong. They 0:21:33.836 --> 0:21:39.116 are smartphones just phone booths, and all that time since then, 0:21:39.356 --> 0:21:44.876 Ronnie he's been well, surprisingly busy. He has this unrelenting 0:21:44.916 --> 0:21:49.956 positivity in a sense, I'm blessed in here He says 0:21:50.076 --> 0:21:53.396 he's seen what happens when his fellow inmates don't stay busy. 0:21:53.636 --> 0:21:56.676 When they give up. I see guys, they lose their 0:21:56.676 --> 0:21:59.716 faith and they lose their going. They don't sit their fans, 0:21:59.796 --> 0:22:01.876 they they don't bomb the air on brush their teeth. 0:22:02.116 --> 0:22:04.796 They just score around and then they get sick. So 0:22:05.316 --> 0:22:07.636 I'm not going to claim this over myself. So I 0:22:07.836 --> 0:22:12.556 keep my spirit up. Iron, I train ways, I train sports, 0:22:12.596 --> 0:22:14.796 I have, you know, and I keep going a ten. 0:22:15.676 --> 0:22:19.436 One day last year, Ronnie finally caught a break. The 0:22:19.516 --> 0:22:22.916 court said, in effect, we won't grant you a retrial, 0:22:23.356 --> 0:22:26.876 but we do have some concerns about how you were sentenced. 0:22:27.436 --> 0:22:31.476 They said, we have questions about his sense because we 0:22:31.556 --> 0:22:35.356 don't we think this sentence might violate the Illinois Constitution, 0:22:35.516 --> 0:22:38.476 which says you have to give a sentence based on 0:22:38.556 --> 0:22:42.316 the serious of the offense, with the idea to returning 0:22:42.356 --> 0:22:48.796 the offender to freedom and citizenship. Next time on deep cover, 0:22:49.556 --> 0:22:52.756 Ronnie has a shot at freedom. But there's a catch. 0:22:53.516 --> 0:22:55.396 We don't care. How must rehabilitation? We don't, you know, 0:22:55.436 --> 0:22:58.276 the constitution says, weblitzaed. We don't care. How must you 0:22:58.356 --> 0:22:59.996 gotta We don't care about none of that. You kill 0:22:59.996 --> 0:23:02.836 the police officer, and they blatantly say, I'm not gonna 0:23:03.436 --> 0:23:16.236 for a police killer. This episode of deep Cover was 0:23:16.276 --> 0:23:20.556 produced by Amy Gaines and edited by Karen Schakerji. Our 0:23:20.636 --> 0:23:25.076 managing producers Jacob Smith. Original music and our theme was 0:23:25.116 --> 0:23:30.276 composed by Luise Gera, mastering by Jake Gorski. Mia LaBelle 0:23:30.476 --> 0:23:34.596 is our executive producer. Additional thanks to Jesse de Bartlomeo 0:23:35.156 --> 0:23:38.916 and Emily Horner, formerly of Injustice Watch and now at 0:23:38.916 --> 0:23:44.956 the Chicago Tribune for her reporting on Ronnie's case. I'm 0:23:45.036 --> 0:23:56.036 Jake Halpern. Deep Cover is a production of Pushkin Industries. 0:23:56.596 --> 0:23:59.916 For ad free listening and early access to upcoming seasons 0:23:59.916 --> 0:24:03.876 of deep Cover. Consider becoming a Pushkin Plus subscriber. You 0:24:03.916 --> 0:24:06.836 can find Pushkin Plus on the deep Cover show page 0:24:06.836 --> 0:24:12.876 on Apple Podcasts, or at pushkin dot Fm.