1 00:00:15,316 --> 00:00:22,636 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, it's Jake. I want to let you know 2 00:00:22,996 --> 00:00:25,356 Speaker 1: we are working right now on season three for you, 3 00:00:25,636 --> 00:00:27,676 Speaker 1: and it's a totally different kind of story than you've 4 00:00:27,716 --> 00:00:30,916 Speaker 1: heard before on this podcast. I've actually been flying all 5 00:00:30,916 --> 00:00:33,436 Speaker 1: over the country reporting it and I can't wait to 6 00:00:33,476 --> 00:00:37,076 Speaker 1: share it with you. But first, Deep Cover is back 7 00:00:37,436 --> 00:00:40,676 Speaker 1: with two special episodes which are kind of a spinoff 8 00:00:40,676 --> 00:00:46,636 Speaker 1: of season two. So let's jump right in. About a 9 00:00:46,676 --> 00:00:49,876 Speaker 1: year ago, there was this pretty unusual hearing in Chicago. 10 00:00:50,476 --> 00:00:54,436 Speaker 1: It involved a guy named Ronnie Karskio who was imprisoned 11 00:00:54,436 --> 00:00:57,396 Speaker 1: for murder. I've been following the facts of his case 12 00:00:57,476 --> 00:01:01,156 Speaker 1: pretty closely. We actually sent someone to record the proceedings 13 00:01:01,196 --> 00:01:06,436 Speaker 1: that day. You're right, could you say your full name, 14 00:01:08,276 --> 00:01:13,436 Speaker 1: Ronnie Cowski. I was interested in this hearing because it was, 15 00:01:13,996 --> 00:01:17,716 Speaker 1: in a strange way connected to the story of Bob Cooley. 16 00:01:19,036 --> 00:01:22,276 Speaker 1: Back in the nineteen nineties, when Bob exposed the corruption 17 00:01:22,356 --> 00:01:25,876 Speaker 1: that was going on in Chicago, there were ripple effects. 18 00:01:26,756 --> 00:01:30,956 Speaker 1: These ripple effects they played out for decades. Ronnie's hearing 19 00:01:30,996 --> 00:01:34,836 Speaker 1: in Chicago, it was one of these ripples. It all 20 00:01:34,836 --> 00:01:37,796 Speaker 1: started back in the nineteen seventies with the trial of 21 00:01:37,836 --> 00:01:42,316 Speaker 1: Harry Laman a mob hitman, remember him. This was the 22 00:01:42,396 --> 00:01:47,356 Speaker 1: big case from season two. Harry had stone gold eyes. 23 00:01:48,196 --> 00:01:51,516 Speaker 1: He just did. Harry looked pure evil. If you ever 24 00:01:51,516 --> 00:01:53,676 Speaker 1: watched the movie Scarface, kind of reminds you of the 25 00:01:53,716 --> 00:01:56,196 Speaker 1: guy walks up behind Scarface with shotgun at the end. 26 00:01:58,236 --> 00:02:01,396 Speaker 1: Harry went on trial for murder and the mob called 27 00:02:01,436 --> 00:02:04,916 Speaker 1: him Bob Cooley to fix the case. Bob claimed he 28 00:02:05,036 --> 00:02:10,076 Speaker 1: bribed the judge, a guy named Frank Wilson, and the hitman, Well, 29 00:02:10,116 --> 00:02:15,116 Speaker 1: he got off. The not guilty verdict sparked controversy and outrage. 30 00:02:17,076 --> 00:02:18,716 Speaker 1: So what does any of this have to do with 31 00:02:18,836 --> 00:02:23,796 Speaker 1: Ronnie Well? Ronnie's original trial took place seven months after 32 00:02:23,876 --> 00:02:28,316 Speaker 1: Harry Alaman's. It was another high profile murder trial. Because 33 00:02:28,316 --> 00:02:31,716 Speaker 1: the guy Ronnie was accused of murdering he was a cop. 34 00:02:32,476 --> 00:02:35,876 Speaker 1: The case got assigned to the same judge, Frank Wilson. 35 00:02:37,276 --> 00:02:41,076 Speaker 1: Now forty five years later, Ronnie is arguing that he 36 00:02:41,276 --> 00:02:45,756 Speaker 1: was in effect a victim, that the sentence he received 37 00:02:45,876 --> 00:02:49,076 Speaker 1: was deeply unfair. The judge Wilson was just trying to 38 00:02:49,116 --> 00:02:52,356 Speaker 1: burnish his credentials to show he was in fact tough 39 00:02:52,396 --> 00:02:55,036 Speaker 1: on crime, and that because of all of this and 40 00:02:55,076 --> 00:02:57,836 Speaker 1: other reasons too. Ronnie is arguing that he should have 41 00:02:57,836 --> 00:03:02,596 Speaker 1: another shot at justice. So over the next two episodes, 42 00:03:03,036 --> 00:03:06,436 Speaker 1: I'll be telling you this story about someone whose life 43 00:03:06,436 --> 00:03:09,076 Speaker 1: has been shaped by the corruption that hung over Chicago 44 00:03:09,516 --> 00:03:13,476 Speaker 1: for decades, and how even now twenty and twenty two, 45 00:03:14,076 --> 00:03:19,076 Speaker 1: it's still playing out dramatically as one man's freedom hangs 46 00:03:19,076 --> 00:03:23,356 Speaker 1: in the balance, because well, Ronnie's been in prison for 47 00:03:23,516 --> 00:03:26,836 Speaker 1: almost half a century, and now his lawyer is asking 48 00:03:26,956 --> 00:03:29,756 Speaker 1: all of us to open up the history books, to 49 00:03:29,756 --> 00:03:33,116 Speaker 1: take a good hard look at what really happened in 50 00:03:33,196 --> 00:03:45,996 Speaker 1: the shadows, and then to let his client walk free. 51 00:04:00,956 --> 00:04:05,356 Speaker 1: I'm Jay Calburn and this is a deep cover mob lend. 52 00:04:37,556 --> 00:04:40,516 Speaker 1: My name is Ronnie cars Gaio and a C. A 53 00:04:40,756 --> 00:04:44,396 Speaker 1: R R A s q U ill Oh. Ronnie talks 54 00:04:44,396 --> 00:04:46,236 Speaker 1: to me on a pay phone from his cell block. 55 00:04:46,516 --> 00:04:50,716 Speaker 1: I'm currently sixty three years old. He's sixty four years old. 56 00:04:50,716 --> 00:04:53,876 Speaker 1: In a couple of weeks, I'm currently residing in the 57 00:04:53,956 --> 00:04:58,476 Speaker 1: Disincorrectional Center in Illinois. We've been communicating for a few 58 00:04:58,476 --> 00:05:01,756 Speaker 1: months now. When he calls, a timer starts and we 59 00:05:01,836 --> 00:05:05,796 Speaker 1: have exactly twenty minutes before were disconnected, which means there's 60 00:05:05,836 --> 00:05:08,476 Speaker 1: really not a lot of time for chit Chad and Ronnie. 61 00:05:08,516 --> 00:05:10,476 Speaker 1: He is a lot to tell me about his life 62 00:05:10,716 --> 00:05:13,836 Speaker 1: and where and when it all started to go wrong. Yeah, 63 00:05:13,836 --> 00:05:16,156 Speaker 1: I grew up in a gang infest the neighborhoods. I 64 00:05:16,196 --> 00:05:19,236 Speaker 1: grew up with a single mother, uneducated, a father's divorce 65 00:05:19,716 --> 00:05:23,036 Speaker 1: when we were young kids back in the nineteen seventies. 66 00:05:23,236 --> 00:05:25,796 Speaker 1: Ronnie was a poor Puerto Rican kid from the Humboldt 67 00:05:25,836 --> 00:05:29,196 Speaker 1: Park neighborhood of Chicago. His dad was a chef who 68 00:05:29,236 --> 00:05:32,796 Speaker 1: immigrated from Puerto Rico. Ronnie he joined a gang at 69 00:05:32,796 --> 00:05:35,356 Speaker 1: an early age. He was a tough kid. He got 70 00:05:35,356 --> 00:05:38,516 Speaker 1: a tattoo on his arm that read mad Dog ron 71 00:05:39,276 --> 00:05:42,796 Speaker 1: He was eleven at the time. His mom died when 72 00:05:42,796 --> 00:05:45,436 Speaker 1: he was fifteen, and in the years that followed, he 73 00:05:45,516 --> 00:05:50,156 Speaker 1: found himself in some pretty dicey situations. And that brings 74 00:05:50,236 --> 00:05:53,156 Speaker 1: us to the night that changed his entire life. It 75 00:05:53,316 --> 00:05:57,196 Speaker 1: was October of nineteen seventy six. Ronnie was eighteen years old. 76 00:05:57,996 --> 00:06:00,836 Speaker 1: That night. Ronnie says he was in rough shape because 77 00:06:00,876 --> 00:06:03,916 Speaker 1: he'd been stabbed about a month before, But he says 78 00:06:03,956 --> 00:06:06,996 Speaker 1: his friends they convinced him to go out early in 79 00:06:07,036 --> 00:06:11,756 Speaker 1: the evening. We went through a party, and what happened 80 00:06:11,756 --> 00:06:14,556 Speaker 1: in this party started six seven o'clock at night. Everybody's 81 00:06:14,596 --> 00:06:20,076 Speaker 1: drinking all that long, so everybody's consuming alcohol, Ronnie says. 82 00:06:20,116 --> 00:06:22,956 Speaker 1: At some point, someone at the party stepped out and 83 00:06:23,036 --> 00:06:25,876 Speaker 1: went to a local tavern to get change for the bus, 84 00:06:26,596 --> 00:06:29,996 Speaker 1: and that's when the trouble started. It was a dark 85 00:06:30,036 --> 00:06:34,236 Speaker 1: skin Puerto Rican Latino. The Caucasians in the bar felt like, 86 00:06:34,356 --> 00:06:35,876 Speaker 1: what are you doing in here? You don't belong here. 87 00:06:36,156 --> 00:06:39,276 Speaker 1: He chased them out. Now the place where I was 88 00:06:39,396 --> 00:06:42,516 Speaker 1: seventy five people, maybe a hundred people in a party. 89 00:06:42,916 --> 00:06:45,516 Speaker 1: They all ran down the street to go get in 90 00:06:45,556 --> 00:06:49,276 Speaker 1: the middle of this stuff. The situation quickly escalated into 91 00:06:49,276 --> 00:06:53,156 Speaker 1: a full pitched battle rival gangs, one white the other 92 00:06:53,196 --> 00:06:56,356 Speaker 1: Puerto Rican, like the Jets and the Sharks, the whole 93 00:06:56,396 --> 00:07:00,916 Speaker 1: thing right out of West Side Story, only scarier, violent, chaotic. 94 00:07:01,596 --> 00:07:05,316 Speaker 1: Ronnie says. At first, he didn't do anything. I didn't go. 95 00:07:05,556 --> 00:07:07,436 Speaker 1: I was stayed in the house. I was stamped up. 96 00:07:07,516 --> 00:07:10,716 Speaker 1: I'm just recovering. So I'm the last guy out. When 97 00:07:10,996 --> 00:07:15,476 Speaker 1: you know, towards the inn. As i'm leaving out also building, 98 00:07:15,596 --> 00:07:17,636 Speaker 1: there's a kid in the hallway and he's got a 99 00:07:17,676 --> 00:07:20,636 Speaker 1: gun in his hand. He's telling me the guns jam, 100 00:07:20,716 --> 00:07:23,396 Speaker 1: so I get the gun in my hand. That's why 101 00:07:23,436 --> 00:07:29,316 Speaker 1: I acquired a pistol from So then Ronnie leaves the 102 00:07:29,356 --> 00:07:36,316 Speaker 1: building and then looks around surveys the scene. Now this 103 00:07:36,396 --> 00:07:40,636 Speaker 1: is where the story takes an unexpected turn. There's someone 104 00:07:40,756 --> 00:07:43,316 Speaker 1: mixed up in the melee here who isn't a member 105 00:07:43,356 --> 00:07:46,036 Speaker 1: of Ronnie's gang or a member of the rival White 106 00:07:46,076 --> 00:07:49,916 Speaker 1: gang either. His name was Terence Loftis. He was a 107 00:07:50,036 --> 00:07:53,316 Speaker 1: Chicago police officer, though that wouldn't have been clear because 108 00:07:53,476 --> 00:07:57,716 Speaker 1: he was dressed in civilian clothing. Officer Loftis was there 109 00:07:57,956 --> 00:08:01,236 Speaker 1: totally by chance. He just finished a late shift. He 110 00:08:01,356 --> 00:08:03,836 Speaker 1: was off duty driving down the street when he saw 111 00:08:03,876 --> 00:08:07,916 Speaker 1: this gang battle, and courageously he tried to break it up. 112 00:08:09,996 --> 00:08:13,156 Speaker 1: So there's Officer Loftus. He grabs hold of one of 113 00:08:13,196 --> 00:08:16,596 Speaker 1: the guys in Ronnie's gang. Reports from the time suggest 114 00:08:16,836 --> 00:08:20,036 Speaker 1: that Loftus was trying to help this kid to rescue 115 00:08:20,116 --> 00:08:23,636 Speaker 1: him from the rival gang. Somewhere around this time, a 116 00:08:23,716 --> 00:08:28,276 Speaker 1: pattiwagon with uniform police officers arrives on the scene, and 117 00:08:28,316 --> 00:08:32,916 Speaker 1: then there's Ronnie pistol in hand. It's late almost two 118 00:08:32,956 --> 00:08:35,516 Speaker 1: in the morning, Ronnie's about one hundred and fifty feet 119 00:08:35,516 --> 00:08:38,636 Speaker 1: away from Officer loftus. I've seen everybody wearing a round, 120 00:08:38,636 --> 00:08:40,956 Speaker 1: so I said, has fired a gun, and there's a 121 00:08:40,996 --> 00:08:43,836 Speaker 1: break off and they're going to run. So Ronnie says 122 00:08:43,836 --> 00:08:46,396 Speaker 1: he decided to fire the gun at an angle above 123 00:08:46,436 --> 00:08:49,476 Speaker 1: everyone's head to try and scatter the crowd, break things 124 00:08:49,556 --> 00:08:52,036 Speaker 1: up with a few warning shots, you know, like a 125 00:08:52,076 --> 00:08:55,276 Speaker 1: sheriff might do in some old timey Western. Only Ronnie 126 00:08:55,556 --> 00:08:59,556 Speaker 1: he was eighteen and intoxicated. Ronnie said he had no 127 00:08:59,636 --> 00:09:02,036 Speaker 1: idea there was a plain closed cop there. He also 128 00:09:02,076 --> 00:09:05,076 Speaker 1: says he never intended to shoot anyone. After all, many 129 00:09:05,076 --> 00:09:07,356 Speaker 1: of the people in the crowd they were his own friends, 130 00:09:07,676 --> 00:09:12,636 Speaker 1: and shooting into the crowd would have endangered them. And 131 00:09:12,756 --> 00:09:17,356 Speaker 1: that's why Ronnie claims he aimed up above head level. Now, 132 00:09:17,356 --> 00:09:21,636 Speaker 1: this detail right here of where exactly Ronnie aimed his gun, 133 00:09:21,956 --> 00:09:26,476 Speaker 1: it's hugely important. It's everything, really, and there's still disagreement 134 00:09:26,516 --> 00:09:30,196 Speaker 1: over this to this day. A forensic investigation found that 135 00:09:30,436 --> 00:09:33,396 Speaker 1: three of the bullets struck an abandoned building several feet 136 00:09:33,436 --> 00:09:36,876 Speaker 1: above head level. This would seem to corroborate Ronnie's claim 137 00:09:36,916 --> 00:09:39,996 Speaker 1: that he was aiming the gun up, not anyone in particular, 138 00:09:40,996 --> 00:09:43,956 Speaker 1: but there was at least one more bullet, and this 139 00:09:43,996 --> 00:09:48,076 Speaker 1: one it struck Officer Loftus in the head. His body 140 00:09:48,356 --> 00:09:52,796 Speaker 1: then crumpled to the ground. Officer Loftus was taken to 141 00:09:52,836 --> 00:10:07,156 Speaker 1: Saint Elizabeth's Hospital. He died a few days later. Ronnie 142 00:10:07,196 --> 00:10:11,836 Speaker 1: was charged with murder. Secutors said Ronnie had quote intentionally 143 00:10:11,956 --> 00:10:15,956 Speaker 1: and knowingly shot Officer Loftis, meaning he aimed the gun 144 00:10:16,276 --> 00:10:19,636 Speaker 1: with the intent of killing him. At trial, one of 145 00:10:19,716 --> 00:10:24,036 Speaker 1: Ronnie's buddy's fellow gang member testified. He said that Ronnie 146 00:10:24,076 --> 00:10:26,756 Speaker 1: aimed the gun with both hands and held at level 147 00:10:27,196 --> 00:10:30,756 Speaker 1: like he was aiming for Loftis. Now I should note 148 00:10:30,796 --> 00:10:33,716 Speaker 1: that this buddy he may have been under real pressure 149 00:10:33,756 --> 00:10:37,676 Speaker 1: to testify for the prosecution. See the gun belonged to him, 150 00:10:38,156 --> 00:10:41,036 Speaker 1: so he could have been an accessory to murder. He 151 00:10:41,156 --> 00:10:44,716 Speaker 1: was never prosecuted, by the way, so there were conflicting 152 00:10:44,756 --> 00:10:48,876 Speaker 1: accounts of where the gun was pointed. But Ronnie maintains 153 00:10:48,916 --> 00:10:52,436 Speaker 1: that he wasn't aiming at anyone. So I just fired 154 00:10:52,476 --> 00:10:55,516 Speaker 1: four shots and I left. I walked out in run. 155 00:10:55,716 --> 00:10:58,436 Speaker 1: I didn't know I shot anybody. I went walked up 156 00:10:58,436 --> 00:11:00,476 Speaker 1: back in the house, I walked out of back door 157 00:11:00,516 --> 00:11:03,396 Speaker 1: and I left. All right, Before we get any deeper, 158 00:11:03,676 --> 00:11:07,356 Speaker 1: something I should mention about this trial. Ronnie he opted 159 00:11:07,356 --> 00:11:11,556 Speaker 1: for a bench trial, no jury, just a judge deciding 160 00:11:11,596 --> 00:11:15,196 Speaker 1: the outcome of his case. His trial attorney anticipated that 161 00:11:15,236 --> 00:11:17,276 Speaker 1: there'd be a ton of cops in the courtroom to 162 00:11:17,316 --> 00:11:20,796 Speaker 1: show their support for the slain officer. The attorney worried 163 00:11:20,836 --> 00:11:23,996 Speaker 1: that a jury might be swayed by this, so it 164 00:11:24,076 --> 00:11:27,676 Speaker 1: went to a judge. The case was assigned to Judge 165 00:11:27,756 --> 00:11:31,476 Speaker 1: Frank Wilson, yep, the same judge who acquitted the hitman, 166 00:11:31,756 --> 00:11:35,996 Speaker 1: Harry Alaman. Ronnie's lawyer at the time hoped that Judge 167 00:11:35,996 --> 00:11:40,836 Speaker 1: Wilson would conclude that technically, legally this wasn't murder, that 168 00:11:40,916 --> 00:11:44,916 Speaker 1: it was manslaughter. The decision to forego a trial by 169 00:11:44,956 --> 00:11:47,716 Speaker 1: jury it was a big one. Judge Wilson would now 170 00:11:47,796 --> 00:11:51,316 Speaker 1: be the sole arbiter of Ronnie's fate. If he decided 171 00:11:51,396 --> 00:11:54,556 Speaker 1: Ronnie was guilty of manslaughter, well that's a lesser crime 172 00:11:54,596 --> 00:11:58,716 Speaker 1: than murder, which would carry a smaller sentence. But if 173 00:11:58,796 --> 00:12:01,876 Speaker 1: Judge Wilson found that Ronnie had intended to kill Officer 174 00:12:01,956 --> 00:12:05,316 Speaker 1: loftus to murder him. Under the rules at the time, 175 00:12:05,916 --> 00:12:09,796 Speaker 1: the judge could throw the book at him. The prosecution 176 00:12:09,836 --> 00:12:13,476 Speaker 1: depicted Ronnie as a cold blooded murderer who deliberately aimed 177 00:12:13,476 --> 00:12:17,996 Speaker 1: and shot the victim. Prosecutors brought another witnesses, friends of Ronnie's, 178 00:12:17,996 --> 00:12:20,556 Speaker 1: who were there that night. One of them testified that 179 00:12:20,636 --> 00:12:23,796 Speaker 1: Ronnie said something like I think I shot a pig. 180 00:12:24,796 --> 00:12:28,756 Speaker 1: In closing arguments, one of the prosecutors said, Ronnie quote 181 00:12:28,956 --> 00:12:32,396 Speaker 1: could not have hit that officer by accident. He shot 182 00:12:32,476 --> 00:12:37,396 Speaker 1: because he had hate in his heart. Judge Wilson found 183 00:12:37,476 --> 00:12:42,316 Speaker 1: Ronnie guilty of murder. Ronnie's current lawyer, Michael Deutsch, still 184 00:12:42,356 --> 00:12:46,756 Speaker 1: can't believe what happened. Next. The judge gave him two 185 00:12:46,836 --> 00:12:50,196 Speaker 1: hundred to six hundred years. Wait did you say six 186 00:12:50,316 --> 00:12:53,916 Speaker 1: hundred years? Two hundred to six hundred years he gave him. 187 00:12:54,956 --> 00:12:57,036 Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever heard of anything like that. 188 00:12:57,356 --> 00:13:00,116 Speaker 1: I mean, in your fifty years of practicing law, have 189 00:13:00,196 --> 00:13:04,636 Speaker 1: you ever seen a sentencing like this. No, never seen 190 00:13:04,676 --> 00:13:07,996 Speaker 1: a sentence like that. And Wilson himself, because we went 191 00:13:08,076 --> 00:13:11,116 Speaker 1: back and looked at all those sentences Wilson is given 192 00:13:11,116 --> 00:13:14,996 Speaker 1: in the past, and all even for murder, all kinds 193 00:13:15,036 --> 00:13:18,116 Speaker 1: of murders, all kinds of He never gave a sentence 194 00:13:18,196 --> 00:13:21,276 Speaker 1: like that, only wants where a guy had a huge 195 00:13:21,316 --> 00:13:25,636 Speaker 1: prior record. Michael Deutsch believes that the timing of all 196 00:13:25,676 --> 00:13:29,596 Speaker 1: of this is suspicious. He notes that the judge had 197 00:13:29,676 --> 00:13:33,196 Speaker 1: just let the hitman, Harry Alaman, walk free, and he 198 00:13:33,236 --> 00:13:35,836 Speaker 1: believes that Wilson wanted to make an example out of 199 00:13:35,916 --> 00:13:39,516 Speaker 1: Ronnie to restore his own reputation as a tough judge. 200 00:13:40,036 --> 00:13:45,436 Speaker 1: Wilson took ten thousand dollars to quit Harry Aliman, and 201 00:13:45,556 --> 00:13:50,716 Speaker 1: now he needed what's called compensatory bias. There's a concept 202 00:13:50,756 --> 00:13:55,276 Speaker 1: in the law known as compensatory or camouflage bias. The 203 00:13:55,356 --> 00:13:58,276 Speaker 1: idea is a judge takes a bribe in one case 204 00:13:58,676 --> 00:14:02,036 Speaker 1: and then, to avoid suspicion, punishes the hell out of 205 00:14:02,036 --> 00:14:05,556 Speaker 1: another defendant in a separate case, so it looks like 206 00:14:05,636 --> 00:14:09,636 Speaker 1: that judge can be tough on crime. Then years later 207 00:14:09,676 --> 00:14:12,836 Speaker 1: the bribe is exposed and the guy who got hit 208 00:14:12,876 --> 00:14:16,996 Speaker 1: with the big sentence, he complains says, Hey, this wasn't fair. 209 00:14:17,396 --> 00:14:20,196 Speaker 1: I got hit with this huge sentence because this corrupt 210 00:14:20,276 --> 00:14:24,196 Speaker 1: judge was covering his tracks. In fact, in the wake 211 00:14:24,236 --> 00:14:27,556 Speaker 1: of Operation Gambat. A number of other defendants have made 212 00:14:27,596 --> 00:14:31,796 Speaker 1: similar claims against other judges in Chicago whose corruption was 213 00:14:31,836 --> 00:14:36,316 Speaker 1: exposed by the FBI. Those defendants are challenging their sentences, 214 00:14:36,636 --> 00:14:39,156 Speaker 1: and that's what Ronnie and his lawyer are doing. They 215 00:14:39,236 --> 00:14:43,756 Speaker 1: believe that Ronnie's enormous sentence was a symptom of Chicago's corruption. 216 00:14:44,436 --> 00:14:47,476 Speaker 1: I'm the one that brought this case to vacate his 217 00:14:47,596 --> 00:14:51,756 Speaker 1: conviction and sentence based on this theory of compensatory bias. 218 00:14:52,596 --> 00:14:55,236 Speaker 1: The judge he needed to cover up what he did. 219 00:14:55,356 --> 00:14:57,676 Speaker 1: It was a lot of how cry about what he did, 220 00:14:57,756 --> 00:15:00,756 Speaker 1: and he was in a situation where he had to 221 00:15:00,756 --> 00:15:06,836 Speaker 1: rehabilitate his reputation. And here is that ripple effect, an 222 00:15:06,916 --> 00:15:11,356 Speaker 1: unintended consequence of Bob Cooley's actions, a consequence that forever 223 00:15:11,476 --> 00:15:15,316 Speaker 1: changed the fate of one man's life. At least that's 224 00:15:15,316 --> 00:15:35,436 Speaker 1: what Ronnie's lawyer is claiming. We'll be right back. It's 225 00:15:35,516 --> 00:15:38,516 Speaker 1: kind of hard to imagine how anyone would react to 226 00:15:38,516 --> 00:15:42,436 Speaker 1: a prison sentence that's two hundred to six hundred years long. 227 00:15:42,956 --> 00:15:46,276 Speaker 1: Can you talk to me about what you remember from 228 00:15:46,276 --> 00:15:48,756 Speaker 1: the day that you were sentenced, when that sentence came down, 229 00:15:50,116 --> 00:15:52,716 Speaker 1: Just like what your reaction was when we went through 230 00:15:52,756 --> 00:15:56,356 Speaker 1: your head. I didn't know what it meant. I was 231 00:15:56,436 --> 00:15:59,516 Speaker 1: that illiterate as a kid. I know that while six 232 00:15:59,596 --> 00:16:02,236 Speaker 1: hundred years I don't know what it meant. It didn't register. 233 00:16:02,716 --> 00:16:05,196 Speaker 1: And when I was in flow, I kept hearing like 234 00:16:05,316 --> 00:16:06,996 Speaker 1: news media will come up to me, or do you 235 00:16:06,996 --> 00:16:09,396 Speaker 1: think about Harry Altiman. I was so in and I 236 00:16:09,396 --> 00:16:11,316 Speaker 1: thought it was a legal term. I didn't know what 237 00:16:11,356 --> 00:16:15,356 Speaker 1: it meant until years later I said, oh, Alum is 238 00:16:16,036 --> 00:16:21,076 Speaker 1: a man's name. To wake up and realize man. Ronnie 239 00:16:21,076 --> 00:16:25,236 Speaker 1: sat in prison for decades. He exhausted his appeals. Then 240 00:16:25,556 --> 00:16:28,436 Speaker 1: a faint hope emerged in the late nineteen nineties when 241 00:16:28,556 --> 00:16:32,436 Speaker 1: Ronnie met Michael Deutsch. Michael's a criminal defense lawyer with 242 00:16:32,516 --> 00:16:36,116 Speaker 1: the People's Law Office in Chicago. He's been doing this 243 00:16:36,116 --> 00:16:40,956 Speaker 1: work for decades. Michael's represented animal rights activists, black panthers, 244 00:16:41,276 --> 00:16:44,836 Speaker 1: and people with wrongful convictions. You've got a social justice 245 00:16:44,876 --> 00:16:49,276 Speaker 1: issue with long shot odds. Michael, he's your man. Michael 246 00:16:49,276 --> 00:16:52,436 Speaker 1: began taking a closer look at Ronnie's case and the 247 00:16:52,556 --> 00:16:55,676 Speaker 1: judge who presided over it. How I got back in 248 00:16:55,756 --> 00:17:00,796 Speaker 1: court with Michael Deutsch fouled a petition that I was 249 00:17:00,916 --> 00:17:05,436 Speaker 1: void jurisdiction, that Frank Wilson had an old business sentence 250 00:17:05,476 --> 00:17:07,516 Speaker 1: to me because he was a crook from the beginning, 251 00:17:08,196 --> 00:17:11,916 Speaker 1: and he CAMOUSI himself as a good judge. Just to 252 00:17:11,996 --> 00:17:15,316 Speaker 1: be clear here, the Harry Alaman case is the only 253 00:17:15,396 --> 00:17:18,356 Speaker 1: case where it was alleged that Judge Wilson took a bribe. 254 00:17:18,916 --> 00:17:22,356 Speaker 1: What's more, neither Ronnie nor his lawyer have any definitive 255 00:17:22,396 --> 00:17:25,396 Speaker 1: proof that Judge Wilson threw his case in any way. 256 00:17:25,916 --> 00:17:29,916 Speaker 1: Ronnie's argument about camouflage bias really hinges on a series 257 00:17:29,956 --> 00:17:37,036 Speaker 1: of speculations. Plausible speculations, but speculations. Nonetheless, the core of 258 00:17:37,076 --> 00:17:41,076 Speaker 1: these speculations come down to this was the judge using 259 00:17:41,196 --> 00:17:44,836 Speaker 1: Ronnie's case to salvage his own reputation. Well, let's start 260 00:17:44,836 --> 00:17:48,596 Speaker 1: by reviewing the facts. After the Harry Alaman trial, there 261 00:17:48,716 --> 00:17:51,916 Speaker 1: was a big outcry. The state's attorney held a press 262 00:17:51,956 --> 00:17:55,796 Speaker 1: conference to express his outrage over the verdict. One state 263 00:17:55,876 --> 00:17:59,916 Speaker 1: legislator called the judge craven. According to Bob Cooley, the 264 00:17:59,996 --> 00:18:03,676 Speaker 1: judge did get very upset after the trial and told Bob, quote, 265 00:18:04,116 --> 00:18:07,676 Speaker 1: you destroyed me. And years later, when the FBI was 266 00:18:07,716 --> 00:18:12,836 Speaker 1: investigating the Alaman and the corruption in Chicago. Wilson killed himself, 267 00:18:13,876 --> 00:18:17,116 Speaker 1: But what does any of this really tell us? For certain? 268 00:18:17,756 --> 00:18:20,076 Speaker 1: Does this explain why the judge handed Ronnie such a 269 00:18:20,116 --> 00:18:23,356 Speaker 1: long sentence? Do we really know how Judge Wilson would 270 00:18:23,356 --> 00:18:25,876 Speaker 1: have ruled at a different time in his career, or 271 00:18:26,116 --> 00:18:28,996 Speaker 1: how another judge would have ruled at the time. We 272 00:18:29,116 --> 00:18:33,276 Speaker 1: simply don't. That's what's so maddening about Ronnie's case and 273 00:18:33,396 --> 00:18:36,516 Speaker 1: what's so insidious about the legacy of corruption in Chicago. 274 00:18:37,116 --> 00:18:41,196 Speaker 1: The ripple effects continue in ways that are so consequential 275 00:18:41,596 --> 00:18:46,996 Speaker 1: and yet also sometimes unprovable. It's odd to think about 276 00:18:47,556 --> 00:18:51,916 Speaker 1: Ronnie Carriscio and Harry Alaman were both gangsters at some 277 00:18:51,996 --> 00:18:54,596 Speaker 1: point in their lives. They both got in trouble with 278 00:18:54,636 --> 00:18:57,916 Speaker 1: the law. They were both charged with murder. One could 279 00:18:57,996 --> 00:19:00,956 Speaker 1: argue that the crucial difference in their fates was that 280 00:19:01,036 --> 00:19:05,276 Speaker 1: Harry's gang simply had more powerful connections, and so he 281 00:19:05,956 --> 00:19:10,636 Speaker 1: walked free. The question is what and Ronnie actually do 282 00:19:10,796 --> 00:19:14,356 Speaker 1: about any of this? Well, what Michael and Ronnie wanted 283 00:19:14,596 --> 00:19:17,196 Speaker 1: was a retrial, a new judge, maybe even a jury 284 00:19:17,316 --> 00:19:20,156 Speaker 1: who could reconsider the facts of the case and determine 285 00:19:20,196 --> 00:19:23,276 Speaker 1: whether Ronnie really was guilty of murder or some lesser 286 00:19:23,356 --> 00:19:26,436 Speaker 1: charge like manslaughter. We had a long hearing in front 287 00:19:26,476 --> 00:19:31,556 Speaker 1: of the judge, and the judge denied us relief, saying 288 00:19:31,676 --> 00:19:35,996 Speaker 1: the law is very difficult to show this because you 289 00:19:36,196 --> 00:19:39,716 Speaker 1: have to show a nexus between the case in which 290 00:19:39,916 --> 00:19:45,116 Speaker 1: the judge was bribed and your case. The court essentially concluded, 291 00:19:45,556 --> 00:19:48,236 Speaker 1: we can't know what Judge Wilson was thinking at the time, 292 00:19:48,476 --> 00:19:50,796 Speaker 1: so we can't know for certain if Ronnie's case was 293 00:19:50,836 --> 00:19:56,036 Speaker 1: influenced by the Alaman acquittal. Would not give me the 294 00:19:56,156 --> 00:19:59,836 Speaker 1: granting of the judge Wilson being a group, saying that 295 00:20:00,396 --> 00:20:02,836 Speaker 1: I did improve a pattern that we didn't know his 296 00:20:02,956 --> 00:20:04,796 Speaker 1: state of mind, and we could improve his state of 297 00:20:04,836 --> 00:20:08,116 Speaker 1: mind as far as being a group. So Michael Bois's 298 00:20:08,116 --> 00:20:10,916 Speaker 1: contention was one he's got phoned up. He shot himself 299 00:20:10,916 --> 00:20:14,196 Speaker 1: on the So Michael Deutsch was contending, how do you say, 300 00:20:14,276 --> 00:20:16,196 Speaker 1: we don't know if the state of mind, you know 301 00:20:16,276 --> 00:20:18,956 Speaker 1: exactly what he was going to do if he got caught, 302 00:20:18,996 --> 00:20:24,356 Speaker 1: and he did do it. Since that Appellet ruling, Ronnie 303 00:20:24,396 --> 00:20:27,956 Speaker 1: and Michael have soldiered on. They remain adamant that the 304 00:20:27,996 --> 00:20:31,076 Speaker 1: facts of the case don't offer any solid proof that 305 00:20:31,196 --> 00:20:35,836 Speaker 1: Ronnie knowingly and deliberately intended to kill this plainclothed policeman. 306 00:20:36,676 --> 00:20:40,196 Speaker 1: But this alone isn't grounds for a retrial. Appeals are 307 00:20:40,236 --> 00:20:43,556 Speaker 1: about challenging how a case was decided and whether the 308 00:20:43,636 --> 00:20:46,876 Speaker 1: law was applied properly. They're not about re examining the 309 00:20:46,996 --> 00:20:51,236 Speaker 1: same set of facts. Again, kind of frustrating, right, This 310 00:20:51,356 --> 00:20:53,276 Speaker 1: is not the kind of drama that you typically see 311 00:20:53,276 --> 00:20:56,596 Speaker 1: on TV, where the story has a clear beginning, middle, 312 00:20:56,756 --> 00:21:00,396 Speaker 1: and end. No, Ronnie's case is dragged on through a 313 00:21:00,516 --> 00:21:04,516 Speaker 1: lengthy process of motions and appeals and petitions, and so 314 00:21:04,556 --> 00:21:07,916 Speaker 1: far they've gotten well, very little in the way of relief, 315 00:21:08,396 --> 00:21:12,636 Speaker 1: and in the meantime time Ronnie remains behind bars. I've 316 00:21:12,676 --> 00:21:18,436 Speaker 1: been incarcerated forty forty five years, like seven months maybe 317 00:21:18,556 --> 00:21:25,196 Speaker 1: like them. That's more than five hundred months, more than 318 00:21:25,316 --> 00:21:29,996 Speaker 1: sixteen thousand days. When he was last free, Jimmy Carter 319 00:21:30,156 --> 00:21:33,796 Speaker 1: was president, the Soviet Union was still going strong. They 320 00:21:33,836 --> 00:21:39,116 Speaker 1: are smartphones just phone booths, and all that time since then, 321 00:21:39,356 --> 00:21:44,876 Speaker 1: Ronnie he's been well, surprisingly busy. He has this unrelenting 322 00:21:44,916 --> 00:21:49,956 Speaker 1: positivity in a sense, I'm blessed in here He says 323 00:21:50,076 --> 00:21:53,396 Speaker 1: he's seen what happens when his fellow inmates don't stay busy. 324 00:21:53,636 --> 00:21:56,676 Speaker 1: When they give up. I see guys, they lose their 325 00:21:56,676 --> 00:21:59,716 Speaker 1: faith and they lose their going. They don't sit their fans, 326 00:21:59,796 --> 00:22:01,876 Speaker 1: they they don't bomb the air on brush their teeth. 327 00:22:02,116 --> 00:22:04,796 Speaker 1: They just score around and then they get sick. So 328 00:22:05,316 --> 00:22:07,636 Speaker 1: I'm not going to claim this over myself. So I 329 00:22:07,836 --> 00:22:12,556 Speaker 1: keep my spirit up. Iron, I train ways, I train sports, 330 00:22:12,596 --> 00:22:14,796 Speaker 1: I have, you know, and I keep going a ten. 331 00:22:15,676 --> 00:22:19,436 Speaker 1: One day last year, Ronnie finally caught a break. The 332 00:22:19,516 --> 00:22:22,916 Speaker 1: court said, in effect, we won't grant you a retrial, 333 00:22:23,356 --> 00:22:26,876 Speaker 1: but we do have some concerns about how you were sentenced. 334 00:22:27,436 --> 00:22:31,476 Speaker 1: They said, we have questions about his sense because we 335 00:22:31,556 --> 00:22:35,356 Speaker 1: don't we think this sentence might violate the Illinois Constitution, 336 00:22:35,516 --> 00:22:38,476 Speaker 1: which says you have to give a sentence based on 337 00:22:38,556 --> 00:22:42,316 Speaker 1: the serious of the offense, with the idea to returning 338 00:22:42,356 --> 00:22:48,796 Speaker 1: the offender to freedom and citizenship. Next time on deep cover, 339 00:22:49,556 --> 00:22:52,756 Speaker 1: Ronnie has a shot at freedom. But there's a catch. 340 00:22:53,516 --> 00:22:55,396 Speaker 1: We don't care. How must rehabilitation? We don't, you know, 341 00:22:55,436 --> 00:22:58,276 Speaker 1: the constitution says, weblitzaed. We don't care. How must you 342 00:22:58,356 --> 00:22:59,996 Speaker 1: gotta We don't care about none of that. You kill 343 00:22:59,996 --> 00:23:02,836 Speaker 1: the police officer, and they blatantly say, I'm not gonna 344 00:23:03,436 --> 00:23:16,236 Speaker 1: for a police killer. This episode of deep Cover was 345 00:23:16,276 --> 00:23:20,556 Speaker 1: produced by Amy Gaines and edited by Karen Schakerji. Our 346 00:23:20,636 --> 00:23:25,076 Speaker 1: managing producers Jacob Smith. Original music and our theme was 347 00:23:25,116 --> 00:23:30,276 Speaker 1: composed by Luise Gera, mastering by Jake Gorski. Mia LaBelle 348 00:23:30,476 --> 00:23:34,596 Speaker 1: is our executive producer. Additional thanks to Jesse de Bartlomeo 349 00:23:35,156 --> 00:23:38,916 Speaker 1: and Emily Horner, formerly of Injustice Watch and now at 350 00:23:38,916 --> 00:23:44,956 Speaker 1: the Chicago Tribune for her reporting on Ronnie's case. I'm 351 00:23:45,036 --> 00:23:56,036 Speaker 1: Jake Halpern. Deep Cover is a production of Pushkin Industries. 352 00:23:56,596 --> 00:23:59,916 Speaker 1: For ad free listening and early access to upcoming seasons 353 00:23:59,916 --> 00:24:03,876 Speaker 1: of deep Cover. Consider becoming a Pushkin Plus subscriber. You 354 00:24:03,916 --> 00:24:06,836 Speaker 1: can find Pushkin Plus on the deep Cover show page 355 00:24:06,836 --> 00:24:12,876 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts, or at pushkin dot Fm.