Speaker 1: The Dream Team Tapes Season two. Kobe, Lebron and the
Speaker 1: Redeem Team is a production of Diversion Podcasts in association
Speaker 1: with I Heart Radio Diversion Podcasts. The players selected for
Speaker 1: the honor of representing the United States in the two
Speaker 1: thousand and eight Beijing Olympic Games are Kobe Bryant. We
Speaker 1: look forward to this for a while, you know, to
Speaker 1: be in this position now here we don't represent our
Speaker 1: nice especially special Lebron James. We look for an opportunity
Speaker 1: of the the weekend on athlem I'm being the best in
Speaker 1: the world. I guess the Redeem Team is because it
Speaker 1: is right. We're the best team in the world. We're
Speaker 1: the best team in the world. We put Basketball America,
Speaker 1: Basketball wheels the beat. Which is that time? Hello and
Speaker 1: welcome to Kobe, Lebron and the Redeemed Team. I'm Jack McCallum.
Speaker 1: For ten weeks of this podcast, myself, co host j
Speaker 1: a Adande, and our technical wizard Mark Francis, who's from
Speaker 1: Australia and who kept wondering why don't we have more
Speaker 1: about Andrew Bogan in this podcast? Uh, we have taken
Speaker 1: it hard to the hoop. We have a showed the
Speaker 1: mid range jump shot. And now j a Adandhie we
Speaker 1: find ourselves in the bonus. What do you think of that?
Speaker 1: In the bonus? It sounds better than what the old
Speaker 1: Phoenix p Announced used to say in the penalty and
Speaker 1: the bonus sounds so much more rewarding, isn't it. It
Speaker 1: certainly does. And in podcast terms, in the bonus means
Speaker 1: you're doing extra work, but not exactly getting any more
Speaker 1: money for it. That's what in the bonus means in
Speaker 1: the podcast world. But fortunately I heart radio because they
Speaker 1: are so generous. Said to us, if you can find
Speaker 1: two interesting guests to join you on a panel, you
Speaker 1: will get an extra one hundred thousand dollars. They don't
Speaker 1: really know that yet, but I heard that was kind
Speaker 1: of a rumor. So tell us who is joining us
Speaker 1: today j a on this bonus episode? Two very interesting guests,
Speaker 1: so maybe they'll double our bonus pay here. But one
Speaker 1: both of them I worked with at ESPN in my days.
Speaker 1: There one Zach Low who I remember. Zack. Remember we
Speaker 1: recorded that that video feature thinking that the Warriors are
Speaker 1: about to wrap up the NBA Finals, only to discover
Speaker 1: while we're recording it that no Draymond Green was probably
Speaker 1: gonna get suspended as he was eventually for for Game five,
Speaker 1: and so we looked at the forus on that one.
Speaker 1: I vividly, vividly remember having a whole the s H
Speaker 1: I T moment during that is where the kids like,
Speaker 1: We're like, it's over, We're not coming back to Cleveland.
Speaker 1: It's all what. And the other I've had pleasure of
Speaker 1: working games with on ESPN TV is Jeff Van Gundi
Speaker 1: And of course you hear him with his commentary during
Speaker 1: NBA games, and of course you remember him as a
Speaker 1: coach in the NBA with the New York Knicks in
Speaker 1: the Houston Rockets, and you might not know that he
Speaker 1: has a t ms A connection and that he has
Speaker 1: coached our World Cup qualifying teams UH quite well with
Speaker 1: with rosters that uh let's say we're not the redeemed
Speaker 1: team exactly and has successfully coached him and helped our
Speaker 1: squad UH reach the World Cup qualifying thanks to his efforts. Jeff, welcome,
Speaker 1: and I want to ask you the difference between international
Speaker 1: basketball and NBA basketball, how you had to adjust, how
Speaker 1: players had to adjust, and how you can give us
Speaker 1: a sense for what it was like for players such
Speaker 1: as the two thousand eight Olympic team to make that adjustment, Well,
Speaker 1: the thing you have to do is realize, UH, same sport,
Speaker 1: different game. The level of physicality is much different. Uh
Speaker 1: no illegal defense. The referees don't know you and don't
Speaker 1: care to know you. Um, you don't know why any
Speaker 1: call is made or not made. And one of the
Speaker 1: great things that Mike Sachowski told me early, he said,
Speaker 1: just don't argue anything because you're never gonna know why
Speaker 1: anything is called or not called. That had to be
Speaker 1: like a straight jack if you don't argue anything. No,
Speaker 1: it really was. And I think the other thing is, UM,
Speaker 1: when you're an outsider and it and you're watching a
Speaker 1: FIBA basketball, Olympic basketball, or even what we did, you
Speaker 1: have this idea that you know we should win every game.
Speaker 1: And frankly I had that naive thought like we have
Speaker 1: the better players, like we're gonna win every time it's
Speaker 1: not close, and if it is close, it's disappointment. When
Speaker 1: you get to that environment, you realize a forty minute
Speaker 1: game of the physicality is different playing against zones. UM.
Speaker 1: The players are outstanding, the coaches are even better than
Speaker 1: the players, and to get any win is usually a
Speaker 1: hard fought win. It gives you a renewed or gave
Speaker 1: me a renewed uh appreciation for how great our players
Speaker 1: are to overcome no continuity, very little practice time relative
Speaker 1: to the competition, and how good our coaches were to
Speaker 1: take on, you know, these huge pressures and come through
Speaker 1: time after time after time. Well who did you have?
Speaker 1: Who did you coach on those teams? Jeff? Because a
Speaker 1: lot of this international basketball goes on. It's like almost
Speaker 1: a secret society. You know, we understand the Olympics and everything,
Speaker 1: but every summer something is going on with USA basketball.
Speaker 1: So just briefly, who did you have and where were
Speaker 1: you playing? So we did it over a course of
Speaker 1: three years. The most important person I had was a
Speaker 1: guy no one listening to the podcast will know, but
Speaker 1: his name was Shaan Ford. We've actually gave some shout
Speaker 1: outs to Sean because he's the man. You know, he's
Speaker 1: been a big part of the podcast. He is the
Speaker 1: most valuable. He is a singular most valuable person in
Speaker 1: USA basketball. And if I ever was I came into
Speaker 1: billions of dollars and I purchased a team, he would
Speaker 1: be my first hire. He would run my team. I
Speaker 1: want him to write a book, Jeff, I wanted that
Speaker 1: he's got that guy's got a book in him that
Speaker 1: would that would be a bestseller. Well, he would be
Speaker 1: have to be. He's part of the mafia, though he's
Speaker 1: not telling real stories. That's the but. But I'm gonna
Speaker 1: say so. I had him, which made everything easier. And
Speaker 1: then we had a bunch of G League guys. One
Speaker 1: summer the best team we had. We had a bunch
Speaker 1: of fringe NBA guys are best player uh Is, Derek
Speaker 1: Whitety starts for San Antonio. We had Frank Mason that year,
Speaker 1: but we had for the core of it, we had
Speaker 1: G League players and they were an ever evolving roster.
Speaker 1: And the thing guys that like when I was coaching
Speaker 1: the Rockets, um the G League was used as a
Speaker 1: form of punishment. If you don't do what I say,
Speaker 1: I'm sending you to Laredo to the G League and
Speaker 1: you re never may never make it back. Right now,
Speaker 1: the G League is used so well, and I have
Speaker 1: such appreciation for how good these guys are at their job.
Speaker 1: But because they're not, you know, they're right on the cusp.
Speaker 1: They could have all been on a roster, but because
Speaker 1: they're not. The financial differences between the last NBA player
Speaker 1: and the best G League player is so stark that
Speaker 1: you know, it was just so interesting. And I love
Speaker 1: these guys. I have such great appreciation for their talents,
Speaker 1: their perseverance, but most of all for who they are
Speaker 1: as people. I just I couldn't have had a better
Speaker 1: experience coaching for those three years. Um and No, like
Speaker 1: you said, Jack, no one knew the games were going
Speaker 1: on except us, and we cared deeply. Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 1: I'm sending you to Laredo, by the way, sends sounding
Speaker 1: a great country song, don't I'm sending you to Laredo.
Speaker 1: You know, in contrast to the G League, we're gonna
Speaker 1: ask Mark Francis to play. Uh, We're gonna ask him
Speaker 1: to play a tape. Here it's Mike Showski because one
Speaker 1: of the things we love to do on podcast and
Speaker 1: all of talk radio quote is too rehash hopeless hypotheticals,
Speaker 1: and uh, this is what we're gonna do now, Mark,
Speaker 1: fire up. Mike Saski talking about comparing the Dream Team
Speaker 1: of two and the Redeemed Team that J and I
Speaker 1: have been talking about for ten episodes, the condition of
Speaker 1: the Dream Team in two and of the Redeemed Team
Speaker 1: an opportunity to win just because of what was happening
Speaker 1: with Magic, where he's back and he was done. He
Speaker 1: was he was done and at the level that he
Speaker 1: wanted to play. Stockton was hurt. So you know, if
Speaker 1: they're all in their prime, there's no question that the
Speaker 1: Dream Team is there. That the Redeemed Team, we were
Speaker 1: all talented at that time. You know, they were not sick.
Speaker 1: They would have given them, yeah, a run run for
Speaker 1: their money. I think, Zack, you were just starting I
Speaker 1: think we had this conversation before back in Believe me,
Speaker 1: I know everybody's saying McCallum eventually has to turn the
Speaker 1: conversation to the Dream Team. But as I say, we
Speaker 1: like these hopeless hypotheticals, and J and I have going
Speaker 1: through in these ten weeks exactly how good this Redeemed
Speaker 1: team was and even the team that followed it in
Speaker 1: two thousand and twelve. But Zack, you were just kind
Speaker 1: of starting to really follow the game, I believe ninety
Speaker 1: two around there. So your memories of the Dream Team
Speaker 1: and do you think that these guys uh could give
Speaker 1: them a run for their money. Yeah, I was fifteen
Speaker 1: in the summer of ninety two, so I was coming.
Speaker 1: I have followed the league my whole life. My dad
Speaker 1: was a huge is it was a huge NBA fan.
Speaker 1: But that, you know, your teenage years, that's when you
Speaker 1: really come of age as a sports fan. That's why
Speaker 1: you know, Jay and I have talked about this, That's
Speaker 1: why Michael will always be like as much a god
Speaker 1: to me, as like in a way that Lebron will
Speaker 1: will never be. And that's not just anything bad about Lebron,
Speaker 1: is just how old that was at the time. So yeah,
Speaker 1: the Dream Team is is you almost don't remember what
Speaker 1: as a fan of that age, you almost don't remember.
Speaker 1: Like I remember that Larry Bird could barely play, could
Speaker 1: barely move. I know that Magic was coming off to
Speaker 1: the HIV and all that, But in my head, there's
Speaker 1: still Larry at Magic. There's still like when I think
Speaker 1: of the Dream Team, I'm like, oh, it's Larry and Magic.
Speaker 1: They were out there just you know with people. Um, yeah,
Speaker 1: of course the Redeem Team could give the Dream Team
Speaker 1: a game. But if you have Lebron James on your
Speaker 1: team with all these other dudes, like you played. You
Speaker 1: put the Redeem Team into all their prime and most
Speaker 1: of them were in their prime, and the Dream Team
Speaker 1: all on their prime. The Dream Team and their prime
Speaker 1: is going to be favored and we'll win. Like if
Speaker 1: you had to play a hundred games, I probably guess
Speaker 1: the Dream Team would win seventy. I don't know, but
Speaker 1: like Redeem Team is gonna get some games. And in zact,
Speaker 1: you know, we think about you and I because we're
Speaker 1: a little bit we're younger than Michael, so we were
Speaker 1: in part are enamored with the myth of Michael, but
Speaker 1: we've also seen the reality of Michael. And Jeff. You
Speaker 1: went against Michael in full fury, full Michael mo You
Speaker 1: saw it up close. And that's the thing is, I
Speaker 1: just can't imagine if they're in a series that a
Speaker 1: team with Michael Jordan, even with an aging bird and
Speaker 1: an aging magic I just can't imagine the team with
Speaker 1: Michael Jordan's is gonna lose. Yeah. You know, obviously great,
Speaker 1: all time, all time, all time great and great competitor,
Speaker 1: but I think you know the difference, uh, one of
Speaker 1: the differences. Twenty six years later, the competition that the
Speaker 1: Redeemed Team faced was so much better, as was the coaching.
Speaker 1: And I think sometimes because it's a more congenial period
Speaker 1: of time, like Lebron James is much more congenial, Like
Speaker 1: he tweets to everybody after they make a good shot
Speaker 1: in a game, like he's just different than Jordan's. But
Speaker 1: I think sometimes we we marginalize that, like his competitiveness,
Speaker 1: because he's so so he's just so kind, you know,
Speaker 1: Jordan's even if he lived in two Day's um, you
Speaker 1: know Arrow, he wouldn't be tweeting, Hey, good shot, Luca,
Speaker 1: Like he just wouldn't have done that in my mind, Like,
Speaker 1: I don't see that. So but I think sometimes like
Speaker 1: to go along with Zack to think that a team
Speaker 1: led by Aid and uh James couldn't beat any team
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know, yeah, Like it's that's like preposterous.
Speaker 1: Of course they could, and they had to face much
Speaker 1: better competition along the way. Well to coaches point, though,
Speaker 1: that's like what you were saying before to about I
Speaker 1: don't remember what exactly what we're talking about. But the
Speaker 1: Redeemed team name itself has always made me feel a
Speaker 1: little funny, because what do they need to be redeemed
Speaker 1: for like Argentina was amazing, like like like the team
Speaker 1: the team that won in two thousand fourth, and that's
Speaker 1: an all time great international teams. This idea that there
Speaker 1: was like a shame in the in the US not
Speaker 1: winning like maybe in the eighties and nineties that would
Speaker 1: have been the case. But you know, the idea that
Speaker 1: I understand that there were some personality conflicts and some
Speaker 1: ugliness in the way that team USA lost in two
Speaker 1: thousand two, two thousand four, two thousand six, But they didn't.
Speaker 1: It's not like they lost to a bunch of oakesters.
Speaker 1: They lost to like a hall of fame, a group
Speaker 1: of Hall of Fame caliber guys. Basically, Yeah, well I
Speaker 1: was I would cover those games and oh four and
Speaker 1: uh J and I have talked about this on an episode,
Speaker 1: and there was a real um and there was a
Speaker 1: lot of factors into it. We're not going to rehash them,
Speaker 1: but there was a real hatred of that team, and
Speaker 1: there was a lot of racism and a lot of
Speaker 1: expectations pulled into it. And at that point, Zack, in
Speaker 1: two thousand four, we understood it who was covering it,
Speaker 1: but the world in general did not understand Manu Ginobli,
Speaker 1: who the hell is he? You know, well, he's probably
Speaker 1: the best player in the Olympics, you know, so, uh
Speaker 1: it was different and also the one of the interesting
Speaker 1: things about this team, I'm sure Jeff remembers this was
Speaker 1: that after they got together, they still didn't have Kobe,
Speaker 1: but they lost to Greece in two thousand six in
Speaker 1: the World Championships and you know, got pick and rolled
Speaker 1: to death and it looked like another Oh my god,
Speaker 1: even with Shashevsky, We're not going to be able to
Speaker 1: uh to pull this off. I never We never could
Speaker 1: find out Jay, could we who gave them the name
Speaker 1: of the redeem Team. We kept looking and I, you
Speaker 1: know what just sort of started appearing, you know, somewhere.
Speaker 1: I will say that they all bonded to it and
Speaker 1: grabbed onto it really quickly. We've gotten so bad at nicknames.
Speaker 1: That's one of the only few good either group nicknames
Speaker 1: or individual nicknames that we've had in the twenty one century.
Speaker 1: And I blame us. Jeff, You're excluded from this, but
Speaker 1: the sports ride this here, Jack, Zack, myself, we're all
Speaker 1: part of this group that has just dropped the ball
Speaker 1: when it comes to bestowing nicknames on people, or we
Speaker 1: let them bestow nicknames on themselves. But like D. D.
Speaker 1: Wade is not a nickname, k D is not a nickname.
Speaker 1: Black Mamba is a nickname self bestowed, but it is
Speaker 1: a nickname. Flash Brothers to me is the best one.
Speaker 1: But I'm gonna go back to what Jack was talking
Speaker 1: about the two thousand and six game. I think that
Speaker 1: was the singular, UH biggest UH game. If you hear
Speaker 1: Mike Sachowski in private talk about UH an awakening of
Speaker 1: you know, our pick and roll defense. Um, you know
Speaker 1: these guys I can't even say the big strong kid
Speaker 1: from Greece's name, but like he's in the middle of
Speaker 1: the paint with no elevation and he's just bruising. I
Speaker 1: coached Spinola's uh you know, so I knew what a
Speaker 1: competitor he was. But you know, now you look at
Speaker 1: Greece and now you're saying, well, you know, uh, Janis
Speaker 1: and his brothers and you know, um they have other
Speaker 1: guys and so now you know, but back then you
Speaker 1: didn't know. And um, you know, I just think it
Speaker 1: was an awakening for everybody with USA basketball that really
Speaker 1: has spurred them on to such great success, and I
Speaker 1: think you know, it happened again for us in the
Speaker 1: World Cup. You know, we were injured a little bit,
Speaker 1: um we didn't necessarily play as well as we could
Speaker 1: have hoped against France. But like it's it's it's not
Speaker 1: gonna be easy. Like I don't even I don't care
Speaker 1: if we bring everybody that we want to next time
Speaker 1: in the Olympics, there will be a game of struggle
Speaker 1: at least one And I think as a country, as
Speaker 1: a basketball community, not only should we expect it, but
Speaker 1: that's what makes it fun. If you if you have
Speaker 1: no doubt that you're gonna win, what fun is the competition.
Speaker 1: I think it's gonna be awesome. And uh, Gregg Popovich
Speaker 1: is the right guy to try to bring us home.
Speaker 1: We'll think about the last World was it the last
Speaker 1: World Championship? Or two? A guy they all like Jack said,
Speaker 1: they all get mixed up to me. But it was
Speaker 1: supposed to be this showdown between Serbia and Team USA
Speaker 1: because Serbia is loaded now. And Serbia's coach even said
Speaker 1: something like well if we I think he was a
Speaker 1: little bit mistranslated, but something like, well if they meet
Speaker 1: us in the gold medal game. Make God help them
Speaker 1: or something, and then they both lost in the quarterfinals
Speaker 1: because the competition is so good. Well, you know, And
Speaker 1: so I was doing the scouting over there, and I
Speaker 1: was at the Serbia argent Argentina game, and Serbia is loaded.
Speaker 1: Yokich comes off the bench. That's how crazy it is.
Speaker 1: They have like this roster full of centers, and I
Speaker 1: don't know why they play them as little as they do,
Speaker 1: but whatever, Um and Argentina, with Composo and Scola and
Speaker 1: Deck and all these guys, they just carved him up.
Speaker 1: And you know, unfortunately for us, UM, you know, we
Speaker 1: we struggled with France, Gobert and and Feigner and those guys.
Speaker 1: But and then we played Serbia. Think about us. We
Speaker 1: were down at the end of the first quarter and
Speaker 1: I was a back to back and we were in
Speaker 1: the constellation. We were down thirty one six or something
Speaker 1: at the end of one or in that and like,
Speaker 1: we came back and it was a very close, hard
Speaker 1: fought game at the end. But I'm telling you, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of people out there that in one forty
Speaker 1: minute game on a neutral court with referees who don't
Speaker 1: know our names, nor do they want to. It's it's
Speaker 1: gonna be hard. And also, I guys, think about it.
Speaker 1: To both of your points, Let's say Nikola Yokich wins
Speaker 1: the m v P this year. You know it's John
Speaker 1: Candid to do so. That would be back to back
Speaker 1: foreign born players who are the m v P is
Speaker 1: going back to to Janice from the previous two. Uh
Speaker 1: Rudy Colbert could very easily be the Defensive Player of
Speaker 1: the Year, Luca don Chich the Rookie of the Year
Speaker 1: from a couple of years ago. I'm sure there's an
Speaker 1: m VP at some point in his future. And so
Speaker 1: since Lebron is probably done with his team USA days,
Speaker 1: we can't just assume that the USA is going to
Speaker 1: have the best player on the court if they play
Speaker 1: against some of these teams anymore. I mean it used
Speaker 1: to be a given, and now, given the way the
Speaker 1: talent is distributed around the globe, it's just not a
Speaker 1: given that the American players will either be the best
Speaker 1: team or will have the best player on the court. Well,
Speaker 1: and you to go to that point, you don't even
Speaker 1: know who's going to be available because the season goes
Speaker 1: to mid July or late July and the seat the
Speaker 1: Olympics start with of July, whatever it may be. So
Speaker 1: you may not you know, you may be going with
Speaker 1: some guys who are in the finals who never practice
Speaker 1: with the Olympic team. I mean, this is unprecedented. What's
Speaker 1: gonna be tried to pull off. Either you're going to
Speaker 1: take people that aren't in the final round or the
Speaker 1: final two rounds of the NBA playoffs and and get
Speaker 1: more practice time or to get maybe a little bit
Speaker 1: better player. Now, this could impact other teams as well, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, um, it's gonna be very interesting roster decisions
Speaker 1: that Jerry Colangelo, Sean Ford, Gregg Popovich have. Um, but
Speaker 1: like you said, it's not a given. It's not a given.
Speaker 1: And to your point that it could impact lots of
Speaker 1: other teams because the NBA sou internet so now, but
Speaker 1: they're great point you made earlier is we typically, to
Speaker 1: you as a typically has been at a continuity and
Speaker 1: chemistry disadvantage against some of the better international teams. Guys
Speaker 1: that girl are playing together played with club teams. They
Speaker 1: play every summer, and we tend to throw these teams together.
Speaker 1: Maybe that's exacerbated this summer, But I mean, that's that's
Speaker 1: something that we've had to overcome in all these competitions.
Speaker 1: All right, that was a big thing for the Redeem Team.
Speaker 1: But we're gonna take a break for a minute and
Speaker 1: we'll be right back with Kobe, Lebron and the Redeem Team. So,
Speaker 1: speaking of Kobe and Lebron, one of the things we
Speaker 1: became kind of fascinated with during this podcast was Kobe
Speaker 1: wasn't Lebron and d Wade and Chris Bosh and Melo
Speaker 1: Carmelo Anthony they kind of signed this little contract in
Speaker 1: two thousand five that they would be around for three years.
Speaker 1: Kobe didn't really do that. He was kind of in
Speaker 1: and out and he finally shows up in two thousand seven.
Speaker 1: And it really became fascinating to me when we kind
Speaker 1: of ask most of the people j and not everybody
Speaker 1: and about who if you have time is running down,
Speaker 1: you're down by one or you're ahead, you gotta win
Speaker 1: the game. Lebron is out there and Kobe is out there,
Speaker 1: who are you going to give the ball to? And
Speaker 1: here is what Mark Francis is gonna dial up Chris
Speaker 1: Bosh talking about it right now, Kobe and get out
Speaker 1: the way. You know, I've never uh, just to ask
Speaker 1: my own philosophy, you know, I've never I never wants
Speaker 1: to make the game more complicated, um than it needs
Speaker 1: to be in that situation. You know, I just feel that, Um,
Speaker 1: that's what he's always done. That's what Kobe does. So
Speaker 1: that was Chris Bosh's answer. That was most people's and
Speaker 1: Sir j A except for Jason Kidd, who tied himself
Speaker 1: into some you know, rhetorical not trying to exactly. I
Speaker 1: think he wanted to say I'd give it to Lebron,
Speaker 1: but then he thought, oh shit, I don't know whether
Speaker 1: I want to say that. So Zach Low, I don't
Speaker 1: know whether you had this figured out analytically, and they
Speaker 1: we're gonna go to Jeff answering it, and j has
Speaker 1: an interesting theory that brings Michael into it. But Zach,
Speaker 1: who you're going to give that ball to? You're the
Speaker 1: point guard. Well look, look, the first thing to say
Speaker 1: is I've just got amazing choices all around me. Right,
Speaker 1: It's not like one of these choices is wrong. So
Speaker 1: let's just let's just say that. But I'll say what
Speaker 1: Jason Kidd, I guess didn't want to say is I'll
Speaker 1: give the bottle Lebron because I I because Lebron first
Speaker 1: of all his clutch stats. I don't know why people
Speaker 1: just don't steeven to recognize him. I think that's changed
Speaker 1: now that I think people do. I mean the buzzer beaters,
Speaker 1: all this. He's at the top of all these lists.
Speaker 1: But Lebron, it can score himself or if Kobe's open,
Speaker 1: he's gonna find Kobe. So I feel like I get
Speaker 1: the best of both worlds with Lebron and the other name.
Speaker 1: We should at least bring up Chris Paul, who statistically
Speaker 1: is one of the greatest clutch players and clutch scores
Speaker 1: in modern basketball history. And and all that gets magnified
Speaker 1: are that his teams have not gotten as far as
Speaker 1: people think they should have in the playoffs. But he's
Speaker 1: made a ton of big shots, and if you look
Speaker 1: at the numbers regular season, he's like one of the
Speaker 1: great crunch time players are He's not going to get
Speaker 1: the ball in this situation because Lebron's on the court
Speaker 1: and Kobe's on the court. I just want to give
Speaker 1: cplttle love, Jeff, He said the defending champion Spurs home
Speaker 1: coming off the last Championship Game seven, playing with a
Speaker 1: bad hamstring that would keep him out the next two games.
Speaker 1: In the next round, he sent them home on the
Speaker 1: last second shot. I I love him too, because I
Speaker 1: told I mentioned this on the podcast. I did a
Speaker 1: story on last second shots, and I don't know why,
Speaker 1: but I went to New Orleans, probably because I wanted
Speaker 1: to go to New Orleans, and I talked to Chris
Speaker 1: Paul about it. That night. Chris Paul makes the last
Speaker 1: second shot that came into the locker room. He goes,
Speaker 1: you know the story was made that never works out.
Speaker 1: But coach Van Gundhi, what do you do there? It's
Speaker 1: time out. You've got Kobe looking at you, You've got
Speaker 1: Lebron looking at you. And also on this team, we
Speaker 1: won't get into this. D Wade was unbelievable on this team.
Speaker 1: Also d Wade sometimes the answer to Kobe or Lebron
Speaker 1: was d Wade. But between those two, Jeff, what are
Speaker 1: you gonna do? I would put the ball in Lebronze
Speaker 1: hands because he seemingly always creates um a great shot,
Speaker 1: people having a second and third defender having to come
Speaker 1: to you know, to him, and which opens up the
Speaker 1: second shot. But like Zach said, you can't go wrong.
Speaker 1: If you go to Wade, you go to Paul, you
Speaker 1: go to you go to Bryant, you couldn't be wrong.
Speaker 1: And I think you know what's hard about that decision
Speaker 1: if you have all those answers trying to pick the one,
Speaker 1: the right one, uh, in the course of a game,
Speaker 1: sitting down at a time out. If if you only
Speaker 1: have one choice, you know you only have one of
Speaker 1: them on your team, it becomes easy. But as a coach,
Speaker 1: if you're ever in a close geam like that, to
Speaker 1: pick the right one, now that's hard because you know
Speaker 1: you'll be second guest if it doesn't work out. How
Speaker 1: did you pick between Team Mac and Yao in Houston? McGrady,
Speaker 1: that's it just perimeter, the passing, the perimeter, ball handling
Speaker 1: the perimeter. You know, big guys, even you know, it
Speaker 1: just keeps getting worse. They get um, they're they absolutely
Speaker 1: get because the league doesn't want post play. They allow
Speaker 1: anything to go. You can club them, you can grab, hold, punch, kick,
Speaker 1: nothing happens. If you blow on Steph Curry, you get
Speaker 1: a flagrant foul. It's just it's not the player's fault.
Speaker 1: It's just how they want the game to be. So
Speaker 1: you're you can't go to a post player like like
Speaker 1: that can't be your go to play. It's too hard
Speaker 1: to execute and there's too many schemes and or physical
Speaker 1: contact allowed that takes you out. Jeff, let me ask
Speaker 1: you if you think the ability to get to the
Speaker 1: line is a diminished factor now because of the three pointers.
Speaker 1: So when Steph Curry won his m v P, he
Speaker 1: won an m v P. I forget what the numbers were,
Speaker 1: but we hadn't seen an m VP get to the
Speaker 1: line as infrequently as Steph Curry had for a long
Speaker 1: time because obviously, shooting all those three pointers, you're not
Speaker 1: gonna get to the line very much. And I used
Speaker 1: to say the value of Superstar in the playoffs was
Speaker 1: that he was going to get the calls, and Steph
Speaker 1: Curry changed all that. So obviously we've seen James Harden
Speaker 1: really rely on on drawing fouls to to be a
Speaker 1: big part of his arsenal. But in your mind, in
Speaker 1: playoff basketball now, is getting foul calls as important as
Speaker 1: it used to be with teams shooting so many threes? Yes,
Speaker 1: you know, Curry is an outlier in every sense of
Speaker 1: the Whey was talking to Jack before we went on, like,
Speaker 1: this guy is better at thirty three than he was
Speaker 1: at It's it's truly amazing how he plays, and no
Speaker 1: one else can play like that. They try to play
Speaker 1: like that, but like, you can't play as efficiently as
Speaker 1: he does. You're not as good with the ball and
Speaker 1: without the ball and in the level of conditioning level
Speaker 1: that he's in. So he's amazing. But I do still
Speaker 1: think not only individual free throws, but team free throws
Speaker 1: because it has it's not just about the offense, j A.
Speaker 1: It's about getting to the line and then setting your
Speaker 1: defense and not having to play against transition offense, which
Speaker 1: is you know, that's what Janice does for the Bucks,
Speaker 1: and Harden did for Houston and now for you know, Brooklyn.
Speaker 1: It it's such a weapon at both ends of the floor,
Speaker 1: you know, getting easy points and also being able to
Speaker 1: prevent those four on threes and five on four's that
Speaker 1: ultimately lead to easy baskets or or pull up threes
Speaker 1: that that go in probably or more likely now. But
Speaker 1: Curry is we're getting off on a tangent here, but
Speaker 1: he he is a revolutionary to me. He changed the
Speaker 1: game more than you know, Michael or Lebron or Magic
Speaker 1: was a guy. Well he's gonna change the game. He
Speaker 1: got a six ft nine inch point guard. Well, nobody
Speaker 1: came along like him. He didn't, you know, he remained
Speaker 1: sort of, you know, alone. But Curry now has changed
Speaker 1: it so much. But you know, one of the failings
Speaker 1: of it is everybody's trying to play like him, and
Speaker 1: nobody is that good, you know, nobody is that accurate,
Speaker 1: you know, And uh, I just think he's probably more
Speaker 1: revolutionary than anybody since Bill Russell, who changed, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of changed the idea that you could go from
Speaker 1: defense to offense. But I don't know, and he is
Speaker 1: that too strong of a opinion anybody, Zach. I remember,
Speaker 1: I think one of the most underrated playoff series of
Speaker 1: the last twenty years was two thousand thirteen Spurs Warriors
Speaker 1: in the second round of the playoffs. It was before
Speaker 1: the Warriors were the Warriors. They had upset the Nuggets
Speaker 1: in the first round and they split in San Antonio
Speaker 1: on the road. They should have won game one. They
Speaker 1: were up big in Game one. Yeah, you know one
Speaker 1: game one. It was a miracle comeback by the Spurs,
Speaker 1: and it was this realization that here are the Spurs
Speaker 1: for twenty years, the best or second or third best
Speaker 1: defensive team in the league every year with Tim Duncan,
Speaker 1: who I'm curious to talk about Tim Duncan. It's is
Speaker 1: his Team USA resume is so interesting to me that
Speaker 1: he just never really did anything internationally. He hated it
Speaker 1: he was in Greece. I've never seen anybody wanted to
Speaker 1: get out of athletes so bad, you know. But you
Speaker 1: could see the Spurs with Steph Curry taking these off
Speaker 1: the dribble, three's on pick and roll. You could see
Speaker 1: the Spurs, and you could and through the Spurs the
Speaker 1: sort of collective NBA community sort of realizing at the
Speaker 1: same time, oh my god, this is this is a
Speaker 1: glitch in the system. This carries over into the playoffs.
Speaker 1: This guy has a problem that we have not encountered before.
Speaker 1: And the Spurs, I don't know if they get out
Speaker 1: of that series, if but I think Bogan and got
Speaker 1: hurt in that series, and the Warriors were kind of
Speaker 1: limping along by the Curry maybe even sprained an ankle
Speaker 1: or something at some point. But like, that was a
Speaker 1: brutal series for the Spurs, who were a championship caliber
Speaker 1: team obviously, and that was that's the one I remember
Speaker 1: that was like the revolution happening in real time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the off the dribble three which you know, everything was
Speaker 1: catching shoot threes. You know. I hearkened back showing my
Speaker 1: age to Mark Price. You know, Mark Price shot that right.
Speaker 1: And so if he would have been given that same freedom,
Speaker 1: like he would have been the problem twenty years thirty
Speaker 1: years earlier. But I think to give that type of freedom,
Speaker 1: and that freedom given to Curry has led to a
Speaker 1: different um idea of what a good shot is. Uh.
Speaker 1: It's it's truly amazing. The skill level. You look at
Speaker 1: what Kyrie Irving is doing this year, like when he
Speaker 1: plays like that freedom he has, like it's it's a
Speaker 1: joke how good he is. It's just he's just ridiculously good.
Speaker 1: But I think it all that whole thing started with Curry.
Speaker 1: I think, you know, Mike D'Antoni downsizing and playing you know,
Speaker 1: fives at four's, fours at three's and and so on,
Speaker 1: and Steph Curry's the freedom given to him, uh, and
Speaker 1: then his skill level to back it up. Those two
Speaker 1: things stand out to me to bring us to the
Speaker 1: game that we have today. Yeah, and what it did
Speaker 1: to the defense is so the series. Zach referenced that
Speaker 1: first round series at the Wars played against Denver that year.
Speaker 1: I just remember seeing a play and I screen grabbed
Speaker 1: it because the War, the Nuggets defenders came out to
Speaker 1: double teams Steph Curry like out by near half court,
Speaker 1: and so they were just seeding that free throw line area. Jeff,
Speaker 1: you know that they used to be such a valuable
Speaker 1: territory for the defense, and they just gave it up
Speaker 1: to go double team Steph Curry way away from the ball.
Speaker 1: And it became even more extreme in the bubble last
Speaker 1: year when Dame Lillard was just going absolutely bonkers and
Speaker 1: at one point he was getting double team in the
Speaker 1: back court. It wasn't a full court press. This was
Speaker 1: a double team of Damian Lillard in the backcourt because
Speaker 1: they didn't even want him let let him get to
Speaker 1: half court because they're afraid he shoot if he got
Speaker 1: to half court uncontested. Well, and and and even in
Speaker 1: the bubble last year, you know, Houston wins Game one
Speaker 1: against the Lakers, and the Lakers have been the best
Speaker 1: defensive team in the in the league all year pretty decisively,
Speaker 1: and they said, we can't handle hard. We we're doubling
Speaker 1: him late and you know, and they just we're going
Speaker 1: to make other guys make plays like throughout the course
Speaker 1: of the game. And I think, you know, these guys
Speaker 1: are so good. Plus the rules are so different, no
Speaker 1: hand check, Um, you know they've become such good, uh,
Speaker 1: foul seekers, contact seekers, um that I think you're gonna
Speaker 1: see more of that in in the playoffs. If you
Speaker 1: have Steph Curry right and like you have all these
Speaker 1: guys he's playing with right now, you can't tolerate him.
Speaker 1: He can win a series by himself. He is literally
Speaker 1: that good. And ken Rick Perkins said something interesting the
Speaker 1: other day. He said he's a top when he retires,
Speaker 1: he's a top ten player of all time. And I
Speaker 1: sat there and I thought, I'm not sure about that,
Speaker 1: but I know this. He is an absolute handful like
Speaker 1: I and people like I. He's loved looking at his reboundy.
Speaker 1: He has more rebounds per game on a lot of
Speaker 1: nights than he has assists. Like this guy is. He's
Speaker 1: not a one dimensional like just score like I think,
Speaker 1: because he is so great a score, he doesn't get
Speaker 1: nearly enough credit for all the other things he does
Speaker 1: so exceptionally well and as and as superior screener, just
Speaker 1: like John Stockton with that slight body. Yeah, he gets
Speaker 1: any steph gets to the basket too. I mean he's
Speaker 1: not he's not dunking. But we're gonna take a break
Speaker 1: for a minute and we'll be right back with Kobe
Speaker 1: Lebron and the redeem team. You know, it's interesting guys
Speaker 1: were talking about catching shoot and I want to bring
Speaker 1: this a little bit to Jason Kidd. There was a moment,
Speaker 1: uh that Jason was talking about, you know, a lot
Speaker 1: of the early stuff with when Kobe got there was Kobe,
Speaker 1: we don't exactly need the Laker, Kobe, you know, we
Speaker 1: don't need you. We don't need you firing up. And
Speaker 1: Jason went to him at one point and says, do
Speaker 1: you ever catch and shoot? Like, do you ever come
Speaker 1: off a screen? Curl off of screen? He may do that,
Speaker 1: and Kobe goes, now, this isn't good enough. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: I'm gonna dance around a little bit. But it brought
Speaker 1: me back, uh. And Jeff would be the only one
Speaker 1: old enough to remember this, and probably not even quite
Speaker 1: but when I was doing this book about Jerry West,
Speaker 1: was involved in it. Somebody had a hundred and sixty
Speaker 1: Jerry West plays. He never caught and shot. He got
Speaker 1: the ball, dribble, dribble, dribble, back down, back down, back down.
Speaker 1: Once in a while he took a couple of quick dribbles,
Speaker 1: you know, went right up to the right. But it's
Speaker 1: interesting the difference what you said with Curry was shooting
Speaker 1: the quick three off the dribble. I mean, nobody did that.
Speaker 1: And I talked about Jason Kidd on this team, and
Speaker 1: I want to bring the two things here, Jeff. Number one,
Speaker 1: the importance of a veteran leader and the importance of
Speaker 1: culture that sportswriters Zack j and I have heard, Oh
Speaker 1: my god, uh, culture is so important. And I want
Speaker 1: to go back to those two points. So Jay Kidd
Speaker 1: was a surprise on this team. First of all. Number one,
Speaker 1: as J and I j remembered, Jerry Collegelo had traded
Speaker 1: his ass at one at one point, you know, from Phoenix,
Speaker 1: and he wasn't happy. They were not happy with each other.
Speaker 1: Jerry Klengelo called him up as the head of USA
Speaker 1: basketball then and said, hey, we want you to play.
Speaker 1: Jay Kidd said, you know you're you're kidding me. He
Speaker 1: thought he was. He literally thought it was a joke.
Speaker 1: Jerry had to tell him a couple of times. And
Speaker 1: I was surprised when we talked to Carmelo, Chris Bosh,
Speaker 1: Darren Williams not to mention Sheski Beheim, Mike D'Antoni how
Speaker 1: important Jay Kidd was. Uh, that veteran leader. And the
Speaker 1: other thing was that Mike had a starting lineup that
Speaker 1: he started every game and it was j Kid, Dwight Howard, Kobe,
Speaker 1: Lebron and Carmelo. And at the end of the game,
Speaker 1: Zack's boy Chris Paul was liable to be in there,
Speaker 1: and Bosch was gonna be was gonna be in there.
Speaker 1: Jay Kidd played thirteen minutes. He took This is my
Speaker 1: favorite stat. What did I say, Jay? He took seven
Speaker 1: or eight shots? Seven shots? Yeah, I'm looking at out.
Speaker 1: It's got to be seven because he ever zero point
Speaker 1: nine field goal attempts per game. Yeah, and he made
Speaker 1: I think he made five of them, were six of
Speaker 1: them or something? So I brought up a couple of
Speaker 1: points here. But first of all, uh, Zach, how many
Speaker 1: times have you heard about culture, and I never really
Speaker 1: exactly believed until I spent that season with the Sons
Speaker 1: and I saw how important you know, that really is.
Speaker 1: So just reflect on that. And then Jeff obviously has
Speaker 1: been a guy who's been charged with building culture and
Speaker 1: how important it is. I still think it matters. I
Speaker 1: do think it matters, and the Jeff will tell you
Speaker 1: it all emanates. It has to emanate from your best player, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, the best player has to set the tone
Speaker 1: for everything. But you know, there there has become this
Speaker 1: sort of fetish fetishization. I can't say that word of
Speaker 1: of culture, and that like without talent, culture is nice,
Speaker 1: and it's nice to have hard working players and a
Speaker 1: and a and a belief system that you stick to
Speaker 1: as a franchise. By the Nets had an incredible culture,
Speaker 1: right like they had these plucky over achievers, They believed
Speaker 1: in sports science, they played a certain way, and then
Speaker 1: they threw all of it away. And that didn't throw
Speaker 1: their culture way, but all the people that had come
Speaker 1: up in that culture and had come to symbolize it
Speaker 1: are gone now except for Joe Harris basically and in
Speaker 1: game superstar talent, and the culture is clearly still fine
Speaker 1: because there have this best or second best record in
Speaker 1: the East, depending on what you at the standings, but
Speaker 1: you know the nets the like, talent is still talent.
Speaker 1: You can't And then the other thing with culture is
Speaker 1: does it get bad when you start losing or do
Speaker 1: you start losing because the culture is bad. That's the
Speaker 1: one that's always unclear to me, because you know, we
Speaker 1: tend to and Jeff and I have talked about this
Speaker 1: on podcast before. We tend to hear about and this
Speaker 1: happened with Houston and Harden, all of these issues about
Speaker 1: the culture was bad, the hardened was this and that
Speaker 1: only after he's out the door and the damage has
Speaker 1: been done supposedly, But like at the time you're winning,
Speaker 1: no one's really you're you're not hearing a lot about it.
Speaker 1: If I hear the term culture one more time, I'm
Speaker 1: in a puke. I am so sick of that term
Speaker 1: because it's so nebulous you don't even know what it means.
Speaker 1: And so to me, it goes to chemistry, right like
Speaker 1: that used to be the term chemistry and chemistry to
Speaker 1: me was two things. How willing you are to pass
Speaker 1: and how hard you're willing to play. That allows you
Speaker 1: to maximize your talent. You going back to zeg if
Speaker 1: you want to win at all, you're gonna sacrifice a
Speaker 1: little bit on both of those to get elite talent
Speaker 1: if you have to. Now, hopefully you don't have to
Speaker 1: sacrifice too much or you may not be able to
Speaker 1: beat the other elite talent. But what what Brooklyn did,
Speaker 1: Like they don't have the same culture. Come on, they're
Speaker 1: not hard working, overachieving, you know, root for the underdog
Speaker 1: there the behemoth with the most talent in the league,
Speaker 1: and like they're gonna win and it's not. It's it's
Speaker 1: not gonna be overachieving story. It's gonna be an achievement
Speaker 1: of talent. And they were able to accumulate three talents
Speaker 1: that are unguardable, all in their own way if they're
Speaker 1: to win it. So um. But Jack getting back, you
Speaker 1: have something about Kid about veteran leadership. I think veteran
Speaker 1: leadership is only like I think we romanticize it in
Speaker 1: this way. If you can't still play, you have very
Speaker 1: little cloud. Like the thing about Jason Kidd, he can play,
Speaker 1: he could still play at that point, and for him
Speaker 1: to have the ability to walk up to Kobe and say, hey, Kobe,
Speaker 1: do you ever take a shot where you just catch
Speaker 1: and shoot? Like to have the basketball courage to walk
Speaker 1: up to uh, a mythologized player and be that direct.
Speaker 1: Those other guys were all really good. I guarantee you
Speaker 1: they at that time weren't walking up to Kobe Bryant
Speaker 1: and asking that direct of a question, even if they
Speaker 1: had in their own mind that same thought. So well
Speaker 1: Jeff Lebron. Lebron went to Mike Sasefski and said, can
Speaker 1: you talk to Kobe about it? And then Mike was like, gold,
Speaker 1: but you're right, Jason Kidd did it directly, but even
Speaker 1: someone with Lebron stature had to go through coach k oh.
Speaker 1: But it also like it's your personality, Like like Kid
Speaker 1: has one of the great accomplishments of all time in
Speaker 1: the NBA, taking the Woeful Nets to two straight finals.
Speaker 1: No one's ever gonna tell me in my time in
Speaker 1: the NBA that's not one of the greatest accomplishments. And
Speaker 1: he was a force of nature, um like defensively, rebounding, pushing,
Speaker 1: but also with his directness. I have great admiration for him. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's one of the things they really talked about J.
Speaker 1: I would say, all the guys, they all mentioned j
Speaker 1: J Kid, you know everybody. Yeah, even playing just a
Speaker 1: few minutes a game and he still had such an impact.
Speaker 1: So that's it for part one. For our panel discussion,
Speaker 1: J and I were joined by Zach Low and Jeff
Speaker 1: Van Dundi will be back for part two next week.
Speaker 1: The Dream Team Tapes Season two Kobe lebron and the
Speaker 1: Redeem Team is a production of Diversion Podcasts in association
Speaker 1: with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my Heart Radio,
Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts for wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. This season is written and hosted
Speaker 1: by me, Jack McCallum and j A. Dandee. Executive producer
Speaker 1: Scott Waxman and Mark Frances for Diversion podcast and Sean's
Speaker 1: High Tone for I Heart Radio. Our editorial director is
Speaker 1: John Tuttle, Supervising producer Brian Murphy, Legal producer Freddie Overstegen, Editing,
Speaker 1: mixing and sound designed by Mark francez Verna Fields is
Speaker 1: our technical producer, and our director of Marketing and business
Speaker 1: development is Jacob Bronstein. Diversion Podcasts