1 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. When I was a kid, 2 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 1: my grandmother had these tumblers I love to drink out of. 3 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: They've made them now in the present day, so that 4 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:31,639 Speaker 1: they're very similar to the way they were back in 5 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: the fifties and sixties, and they're aluminum and you can 6 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: actually see the condensation kind of dripping off the sides, 7 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: and for me, that always indicated a cool, refreshing drink. 8 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:49,560 Speaker 1: There's an alcoholic beverage out there that uses a similar mug, 9 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: but it's made of a copper, and it's equally as refreshing, 10 00:00:55,920 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: but with of course the added alcohol that comes along 11 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: with it. Here's the recipe. Two ounces vodka, six ounces 12 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: ginger beer, half ounce of freshly squeezed lime juice, and 13 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: this is to be placed into a copper mug with 14 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 1: ice and stirred. It's called a Moscow mule. But you know, 15 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: looking through this recipe, I don't see an indication that 16 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:31,839 Speaker 1: fentanyl is required to make this drink. Today we're going 17 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: to discuss the apparent homicide of Eric Richen's and it 18 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: involves a drink, the Moscow mule. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan 19 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 1: and this is body Bags back with me my friend 20 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: Dave Mack. He's a senior crime reporter with Crime Online. Dave, 21 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: We've been following this case now for weeks and it 22 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: just what was it that Alice said? It just keeps 23 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: getting curious or as we go along, it's a tragedy. 24 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,679 Speaker 1: I don't mean to laugh, but my gosh, did you 25 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 1: see this coming? I really didn't. 26 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 2: No, I didn't, and I'm sure a lot of other 27 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 2: people will soon agree. When Eric Richins died, Corey Richins 28 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:21,639 Speaker 2: actually wrote a book to help her children deal with grief. 29 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 2: And in promoting this book, by the way, self published, 30 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 2: meaning there wasn't a big book company that actually signed 31 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 2: her up to do this. She wrote it down and 32 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 2: she paid to have it put out there, and so 33 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 2: that got her on local TV. So when the news 34 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:40,399 Speaker 2: media is covering this story, what do we have. We've 35 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 2: got the grieving widow talking about helping her children and 36 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 2: how they wrote this book and here's the book. So 37 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 2: it's that footage of being able to add to the 38 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 2: story that gets more attention, or the fact that it's 39 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 2: just a crazy story about rich people killing one another, 40 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 2: you know. 41 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, that and then you take I'm kind of 42 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: interested in Dave in this dynamic, considering that this has 43 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: been in this being, this book has been introduced into 44 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 1: the storyline. Yes, she did self publish, obviously in the 45 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 1: area in which she lived. 46 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:12,519 Speaker 2: It. 47 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: You know, it had some traction because she was on 48 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 1: local news. And I'm sure that what's the word the 49 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:23,919 Speaker 1: media always uses, brave, She's being brave. She's on television, 50 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,679 Speaker 1: she's there in the face of this tragedy that has 51 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:32,359 Speaker 1: confronted her and her children which are left behind. And 52 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: I can tell you the through line kind of went 53 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: something like this, I would imagine, Well, I saw in 54 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: my children a great need to be helped through this 55 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: time period in Greece, and I just knew that I 56 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: didn't want others to suffer as my family has suffered. Now, 57 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: I thought that this would be a way to help. 58 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 1: That's kind of the way these things kind of play out. 59 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 1: I really wonder though, and this is very twisted, I 60 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 1: guess in its own way, how many people were truly 61 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: grieving out there, had lost a spouse and they had kids, 62 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: and they latched onto this and just followed this just 63 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: a bit here, I won't go too far with it, 64 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: and they began to follow this. They read the book 65 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: and they thought, God, this would really be good for 66 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 1: my kids. I'm having a hard hard time, and it's 67 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: almost as like this miracle has happened. I have a 68 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:24,280 Speaker 1: tool now at my disposal, and they've read this thing. 69 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 1: They've disseminated the information to the kids. Maybe they've read 70 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 1: it with kids in their current situation. And now they 71 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: look back and they see what she's accused of, and 72 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 1: it really gives you pause, doesn't it. 73 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 2: Yes, because Corey Rigins is now accused of murdering her 74 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,359 Speaker 2: husband through poisoning. I mean, we'll get more into detail 75 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 2: on that in just a bit, but I'm thinking about 76 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 2: the people who actually did hold on to this, and 77 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 2: not just talking about children and losing a parent. I'm 78 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 2: talking about anybody dealing with any grip and sharing that 79 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 2: grief with loved ones and trying to get through it 80 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 2: and holding onto this and really, you know, being able 81 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 2: to look at her and go, Wow, I can get 82 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,039 Speaker 2: through this. She did, She's on TV talking about it. 83 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:14,919 Speaker 2: I can get through it too. And that's the shocking 84 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:17,480 Speaker 2: depth of depravity we find ourselves today. 85 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, and again there's that word, and it seems to 86 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: be a theme that runs through a lot of these cases. Depravity. 87 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 1: You think about the depths to which people can sink 88 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 1: in the face of these things, and from an investigative standpoint, 89 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: you begin to wonder, is this part and parcel of 90 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 1: an attempt to throw investigators off to truly buy into 91 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:45,479 Speaker 1: the character of the grieving widow. I can tell you this, 92 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 1: A lot more is going to come out about this case. 93 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 1: She's been charged, she's in custody, and we're going to 94 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: hear a lot about motivation and the endgame, which, of course, 95 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: in this particular case, led to the death of her husband. 96 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: The thing about poisoners, they are so very stealthy. I 97 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:32,279 Speaker 1: appeared on a television show several episodes a thing that 98 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: was produced down in Australia called Poisonous Liaisons. It was 99 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:37,840 Speaker 1: one of the most satisfying things I'd done. And all 100 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 1: of the deaths that we covered on that program had 101 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,280 Speaker 1: to do with poisoners. And they've been around, they're as 102 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:47,159 Speaker 1: old as time, but they vary so much differently than 103 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 1: what you think of a person that goes out and 104 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 1: commits some kind of just brutal homicide with their bare 105 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: hands or a weapon. It requires a level of intimacy 106 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: that you don't see in other cases. Because you can 107 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: have intimacy when it comes to stabbing someone to death 108 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 1: or certainly bludgeoning someone. But how is it that you 109 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: can kind of insert yourself into their world the victim, 110 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: that is, get close enough to them so that you 111 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: can have them ingest a substance that you know good 112 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 1: and well. It could in fact lead to their death, 113 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: and that may be what has happened here in the 114 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: death of Eric Ritchins. 115 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 2: When you read off the ingredients the way the Moscow 116 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 2: mule is served. Had you ever heard of that drink? 117 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: Joe? Yeah, Yeah, They've been popular for a while, and 118 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: I really wonder if that's the reason it was chosen. 119 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 1: Perhaps the thing that it does contain is ginger, and 120 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: ginger for years and years actually has a medicinal impact 121 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: that's legitimate. You can take ground ginger and it sues nausea. 122 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: These sorts of things I remember when I was little. 123 00:07:58,360 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: I know there's a lot of people in our general 124 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: that can identify with this. One of the things my 125 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: grandma will give me was ginger ale and Sherbert. My 126 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: thought is that vodka has a taste to it but 127 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: it's not as pronounced as say, like tequila or something 128 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: like that. It's a bit more subtle. It's not even 129 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: as pronounced as gin, and certainly not as whiskey. And 130 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 1: then you can mask certain tastes with it. So if 131 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: you're going to put some type of element, introduce some 132 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 1: element into this recipe, I think that this is a 133 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: perfect selection. Not to mention your masking, it would lie 134 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: as well. 135 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 2: Let's get into this family. You want to for just 136 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 2: a minute, Yeah, I'd love to. We're dealing with Eric 137 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 2: and Corey Richins. Eric Richins was from a very well 138 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 2: established family. There could be book just written on his 139 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 2: family and the name. And this was actually such a 140 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 2: good man. You see people all the time that you 141 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 2: know from work, school, church, whatever, and you find those 142 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 2: people that are just really good and you kind of think, 143 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 2: is he like this for real? Eric Richins was that guy, 144 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 2: loved his kids, had a great business, He had all 145 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 2: the trappings you know of coming from a wealthy family. 146 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 2: Just a good guy. To give you a little tip, 147 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 2: Eric was an outdoorsy guy and he was kind of 148 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:19,079 Speaker 2: known in the family as the guy that everybody's waiting 149 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 2: on you to have a big family dinner and AERA's 150 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 2: running behind because he decided to take his four wheeler 151 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 2: out for a few minutes before they left and he 152 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 2: wrecked it. But he's on his way. He just got 153 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 2: a dirty shirt on. That was Eric. 154 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: You know. 155 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 2: This was a guy that had three boys that were 156 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 2: involved in all kinds of sports, right, and he either 157 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 2: coached or was the assistant coach on all of their teams. 158 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 2: On top of that, guy had a bang in business, 159 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 2: which actually does come into play in this story when 160 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 2: we get right down to it. Corey and Eric had 161 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 2: been married for nine years, three boys. Corey was in 162 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 2: real estate and had a real estate license and flipped 163 00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 2: houses that depended on some of Eric's money and ability 164 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 2: to create money to get loans and things like that. 165 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 2: It came down to this one huge property that depending 166 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 2: on which article you're reading, it was either a two 167 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 2: million dollar property or a three point seven to five 168 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:15,680 Speaker 2: million dollar property that Corey wanted to buy and flip. 169 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 2: It was unfinished and just fyi, the home that was 170 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 2: the final straw on the camel's back in the rich 171 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 2: In's couplehood actually has been known as the money pit 172 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 2: in that area, and some people have referred to it 173 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 2: as a cursed property. I'm not saying it caused Eric 174 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,680 Speaker 2: to die, but it was part of the reasons that 175 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 2: Corey was really trying to get him out of the picture. 176 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 1: There are many times where there's the proverbial straw, you 177 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 1: know that goes without saying. And I'm looking at an 178 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: image of it right now, and it's massive, and of 179 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:49,199 Speaker 1: course it's almost like when you go out to Utah, 180 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: everywhere you look you get another postcard shot. Even though 181 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 1: this thing is unfinished. It's massive. It's certainly not my 182 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: taste and certainly not within the of what I could 183 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 1: do financially. But you look at it and it's framed 184 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 1: with mountains all the way around it. It looks like 185 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 1: it would be a lovely, lovely place. But when we're 186 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 1: investigating deaths, there's any number of motivations, as we know, 187 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 1: and as we've talked about in the past relative to homicides, 188 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: certainly financial it goes without saying. It is generally in 189 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 1: the top three, and you can connect all kinds of 190 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 1: stuff to that, either financial distress, maybe it's connected to 191 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: finances as they apply to drugs, a need for money, 192 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: an acquisition of money. It can also part and parcel 193 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 1: of anger that's generated as a result of money that's 194 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: owed to individuals or the position that debt is going 195 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: to put somebody in. But is this catastrophic enough? Is 196 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: this situation because you know, there's a lot of people 197 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:49,199 Speaker 1: out there that have pulled themselves out of the ditch 198 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:53,559 Speaker 1: proverbally certainly in real estate, that have made horrible decisions 199 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 1: over the years, I don't know that it rises to 200 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: the level where you think, well, the only answer I 201 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: have here is am I going to take the ultimate 202 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: step and murder my spouse over? So that leads me 203 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 1: to the question is is this the first time out 204 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 1: of the gate that she has attempted to do this? Because, 205 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 1: as has been alleged by the authorities, when you're thinking 206 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 1: about how much of a dosage to apply to an individual, 207 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: this requires considerable amount of thought if you approach it 208 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: as if it's a scientific endeavor. There have been cases 209 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: over the years where people have applied graduated amounts of 210 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: a substance to some medium like a drink or food 211 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 1: or something like that, and say they ate that they 212 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: got a little bit sick and it didn't really have 213 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:48,599 Speaker 1: the impact that I thought that it was going to 214 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 1: have let's go ahead and kick it up a notch. 215 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 1: And this does It requires a certain level of a nerve, 216 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: if you will, in order to get close enough to 217 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:00,679 Speaker 1: somebody to do this. 218 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 2: When you look at their relationship and you have the 219 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 2: picture being painted, Eric Richins is the dream father. There 220 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 2: was a lot going on negatively with regard to Corey 221 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 2: Richins and what she was doing. Reportedly, she was stealing 222 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 2: from her husband financially, and he didn't just find out 223 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 2: about it a week before he died. The actual thieving 224 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 2: she is accused of began about two and a half 225 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 2: years into the marriage. They got married in twenty thirteen. 226 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:32,839 Speaker 2: By twenty sixteen, she was already stealing money. And we're 227 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 2: not talking a little bit here. Reportedly, hundreds of thousands 228 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 2: of dollars just got morgan. Eric found out in twenty twenty. 229 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:43,680 Speaker 2: That's when we know he actually found out that Corey 230 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 2: had taken out at least one hundred thousand dollars from 231 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 2: his accounts. And we mentioned the business accounts. You know, 232 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:52,200 Speaker 2: he had access to a lot of cash. She borrowed 233 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 2: large amounts of money on his credit cards, over thirty 234 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 2: thousand dollars. There she actually borrowed two hundred and fifty 235 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,559 Speaker 2: thousand dollars using a front gudulent power of attorney, forging 236 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 2: his initials on documents, allowing her to act on his behalf, 237 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 2: and he found out about it. This is again a 238 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 2: couple of years ago, so already Eric knew what his 239 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 2: wife was all about. He was making plans to get 240 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 2: himself out of this. His biggest issue with the boys 241 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 2: wasn't money, but he was making plans. And that's why 242 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 2: when we look at the last few months of their 243 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 2: life together, Corey realized she's losing the cash cow. If 244 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 2: she can get rid of him and keep the money, 245 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 2: her life keeps cruising ahead. Where when you mentioned more 246 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 2: than one time, as far as we know, she hadn't 247 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 2: killed anybody up to this point, so I imagine figuring 248 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 2: out what do I use to kill him? She probably 249 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 2: had to do some research there, and she happened to 250 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 2: have a friend I put that in air quotes. Don't 251 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 2: know how close they were, but somebody she had known 252 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 2: for a while who was actually kind of a drug dealer, 253 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 2: and so I'm sure they had a few discussions about, Hey, 254 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 2: what kind of drugs could I use for X? Y 255 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 2: Z and that's where this all began. So I'm wondering, 256 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 2: at what level do you find out how much a 257 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 2: person has used to poison somebody. Can you go back 258 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 2: and find out did she try to use other chemicals 259 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 2: to kill Eric in the months leading up to his 260 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 2: actual death? Is there a way to figure that out? 261 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: No? 262 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 2: Not. 263 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: Most of the time where you can go back and check. 264 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: What you're looking for is to see if drugs have 265 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 1: been metabolized in the system, and that means kind of 266 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: gone through the cycle where it passes through initially from 267 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 1: initial ingestion or initial injection. However it is applied and 268 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: it passes out of the system. Drugs do have a life, 269 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 1: to have a half life within a system. But you know, 270 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: I found out something else interesting about this case. Apparently, 271 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 1: at some point in time, it has been alleged that 272 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 1: Eric really believed that she may be trying to kill him. 273 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: There was one instance where he had eaten a sandwich 274 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 1: I think that had been given to him, and he 275 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: began to have what he thought was an allergic reaction. 276 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, it had gotten so bad 277 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: that he had to use one of his kid's EpiPen 278 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 1: injectors to get over the hump with this. I don't 279 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 1: know that really how deeply at that time this was 280 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: dug into. He had apparently mentioned it to some of 281 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: his peripheries in his life that he thought that maybe 282 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 1: she was trying to kill him. But at that point 283 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: in time, I guess he was thinking that maybe it 284 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 1: was an anaphylaxis event, which can you can have a seizure. 285 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: I'll have to tell you about a case I worked 286 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 1: many years ago where the lady committed suicide via anaphylaxis. 287 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 1: It never worked anything like that, and it's a horrible 288 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 1: way to die. But at least his perception at the 289 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 1: time was that he started out I believe in that 290 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: particular case where he took a small dosite to benaderill, 291 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 1: which can help in milder cases, but he felt the 292 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 1: need or compelled to grab hold of his child's EpiPen 293 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 1: and inject it into his leg, which is an intramuscular 294 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 1: injection where you go right down into the muscle of 295 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 1: the leg, generally the meaty part, and slam this thing home. 296 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:18,879 Speaker 1: And it's very powerful. And this attack that he was 297 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: having subsided at that moment. Tom So, is this indicative 298 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 1: of a history perhaps that there's something going on, but 299 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: there's really no way from that perspective where you could 300 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 1: go back and see, in fact, if whatever substance that 301 00:17:37,880 --> 00:18:00,160 Speaker 1: was that had been applied to him was present at autopsy. 302 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: It's not within the norm for thirty nine year old 303 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:11,920 Speaker 1: active males with no previous medical history to suddenly die. 304 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 1: It doesn't work that way. You have an individual that 305 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 1: suddenly dies that fits that parameter, it will draw the 306 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 1: eye of investigators. And the first stop along this route 307 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:26,639 Speaker 1: is going to be the medical examiner because they'll be 308 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:29,880 Speaker 1: tasked with it. And Dave, just so our listeners understand, 309 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: if I were as an investigator that worked for the 310 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 1: medical examiner, they have state medical Examiner in Utah, and 311 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 1: I had a young man that died like this, I 312 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: am not just going to be able to waltz over 313 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 1: to his attending physician, who might be a guy that 314 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,160 Speaker 1: he just goes and sees for an annual checkup, and say, hey, doc, yeah, 315 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,439 Speaker 1: one of your patients has just passed away. Will you 316 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 1: sign his death certificate? That doctor is going to look 317 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:59,199 Speaker 1: at me as if I have spiders crawling out of 318 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,400 Speaker 1: my ears and say, have you lost your mind, I'm 319 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 1: not signing this. He has no previous medical history at all. 320 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: I'm not putting my name on that because he's got 321 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,719 Speaker 1: to conjure up a cause of death for this person. 322 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:16,159 Speaker 1: And it may, on the surface appear to be a 323 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:20,879 Speaker 1: natural event because he doesn't have any trauma. Okay, but 324 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 1: this requires on the part of the medical examiner to 325 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:27,959 Speaker 1: do a deep dive to try to understand what in 326 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 1: fact happened. What was it this bolt of thunder that 327 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:35,880 Speaker 1: brought down death upon this man at such a young age. 328 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 2: When the police are called to an event like this 329 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 2: thirty nine year old guy dad in the middle of 330 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 2: the night and in a seemingly comforting area. You know, 331 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 2: he's at home in bed and being a wife and kids, 332 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,239 Speaker 2: the whole nine. I'm wondering, as you get into this 333 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:56,399 Speaker 2: and you start looking around as an investigator of people 334 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,639 Speaker 2: who are no longer with us, if you notice the 335 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:03,439 Speaker 2: man that is dead doesn't appear to have been like 336 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 2: there was no life saving measures? Does CPR? But the 337 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 2: spouse says, yeah, I did CPR, but nothing is there. 338 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 2: Can you figure that out? When you're looking at the body? 339 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,919 Speaker 2: Can you tell if somebody has actually tried to do 340 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 2: life saving measures on the individual. 341 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 1: Well, that's a tough thing. First off, if you've been trained, 342 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:24,439 Speaker 1: for instance, in basic life saving. If folks go to 343 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 1: the Red Cross, for instance, and they get their CPR certification, 344 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: you know one of the things that they want you 345 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: to do, if at all possible, is to get the 346 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,680 Speaker 1: subject onto if they're in cardiac arrest, get them onto 347 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,640 Speaker 1: a hard surface, And the purpose of that is so 348 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 1: that you can be above them and you can do 349 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:43,719 Speaker 1: an overall examination very quickly. You're looking for things, and 350 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:46,919 Speaker 1: you have to be able to get the airway open, 351 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 1: which is generally facilitated more easily on that kind of 352 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 1: surface if you're not a medical professional, where you can 353 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: kind of arch the neck back, observe the airway. The 354 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: old thing about sweeping the airways, see if the airway 355 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:05,159 Speaker 1: is acluded, block by anything. And then to do chess compressions, 356 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,360 Speaker 1: you need a firm surface. You're interlocking your hands, you're 357 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: placing them adjacent to the sternum, and you're doing these 358 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:15,719 Speaker 1: counts of compressions and then breaths that you have to do. 359 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 1: So one of the things that we'll look for is 360 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: you said that you try to save him, well, why 361 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 1: didn't you pull them over onto the floor. I mean, 362 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:25,199 Speaker 1: she could easily say it was a lot bigger than me. 363 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: I was just frantic. I was just trying to save him. 364 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 1: But that's one of the first indicators. Have they taken 365 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: any steps to see, you know, if there's any kind 366 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 1: of trauma, And of course if EMTs roll out there, 367 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:39,640 Speaker 1: it's going to be pretty obvious. They leave debris everywhere 368 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 1: because they're cracking open. And I'm not saying that I'm 369 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: not in an accusatory the way people have to understand. 370 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,880 Speaker 1: You know, they have to crack open their supplies there 371 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 1: and they just drop them because they're in the midst 372 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: of trying to save somebody's life. And you'll have disposable 373 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:55,400 Speaker 1: amboo bags, which are the little breathing bags that they use, 374 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: and you'll have ekg leads that are stuck on various locations, 375 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,879 Speaker 1: anatom on the body, and sometimes in the field you 376 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:06,119 Speaker 1: can see paddle marks on the chest where they know 377 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 1: they've tried to jolt the individual back into back into rhythm. 378 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: As an investigator, you want to try to understand is 379 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,160 Speaker 1: there anything that stands out here? Is there anything at 380 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 1: the scene that is going to give me pause to 381 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: think this is something as there was an old friends 382 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 1: of pathologist that used to tell me in the morgue, 383 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,159 Speaker 1: he says, I want to know if there was anything 384 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 1: to indicate that this death is something other than as advertised, 385 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:33,880 Speaker 1: is what he would say. And so that became kind 386 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 1: of a key feature in my mind as I'm looking 387 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,679 Speaker 1: at this, is there anything here to indicate that this 388 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 1: is something other than has advertised by the family, Because 389 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: the family who in this case is going to be 390 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: the person that discovers them, is going to be the 391 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: person that's setting the tone for the narrative. 392 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,159 Speaker 2: And that's what got my attention. According to court documents, 393 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 2: Richins and his wife, Corey, were celebrating a business accomplishment 394 00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 2: the night he died. Corey reportedly made Eric a moscow 395 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 2: mule and brought it to him in the bedroom. In 396 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 2: the meantime, Corey says she went to help one of 397 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 2: their children and didn't return to bed for several hours. 398 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 2: It was then she noticed Derek was cold to the touch, 399 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 2: and she calls nine one one and is supposedly attempting 400 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 2: to give Eric's CPR. According to the rest affidavit, though 401 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,920 Speaker 2: first responders arrived and it seemed as though she really 402 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:25,640 Speaker 2: hadn't done anything. There was an apparently amount of blood 403 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:29,440 Speaker 2: in his mouth that made them realize that she's lying. 404 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,159 Speaker 2: So immediately it's you've got a dead thirty nine year 405 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,119 Speaker 2: old man. There's no bullet wounds, there's no knife wounds, 406 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:38,640 Speaker 2: there's no other indications on his body that anything has 407 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 2: been done to him. And yet she claims she performed CPR. 408 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 2: There's evidence she didn't. So they're gonna have to run 409 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 2: a drug panel. I'm guessing they're gonna have to figure 410 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,119 Speaker 2: out a toxicology So when they do that, Joe, And 411 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 2: this is just because I don't know what are they 412 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 2: testing for. I mean just testing for cocaine pills. I mean, 413 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 2: I don't know what the test includes. But I'm make 414 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 2: guessing in this day and age, there would be a 415 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 2: pretty long list of drugs and things to test for 416 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 2: in a person these days. 417 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, there are. And let me give you I'm so 418 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: glad you mentioned this about the evidence of blood in 419 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 1: the mouth. And you make a valid point here regarding 420 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,160 Speaker 1: the presence of it and an absence of it, say, 421 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: for instance, on her, because if you're doing mouth to mouth, 422 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: there'll be that transfer of substances out of the mouth. 423 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 1: I've interviewed people that have had vomitous on their face 424 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,120 Speaker 1: as a result of doing CPR, and I know that's 425 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: really disgusting, But this is body bags. That's what we 426 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 1: talk about, and that's evidence. It's evidence of something that 427 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: has occurred. But when you begin to think about blood 428 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,360 Speaker 1: in the mouth, I'd be very curious to know what 429 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,879 Speaker 1: his pallor was like. The pallor is a term that 430 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: people use regarding the coloration of the body. And we 431 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: have mentioned this before. Remember I've talked about how people 432 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: that are in congestive failure have almost an eggplant color 433 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 1: to them, where they'll be purple, and that goes to congestion. 434 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: And what we look for is the level of congestion 435 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 1: from what they refer to as from the nipple line 436 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: to the top of the head. Well, if that's going on, 437 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:13,400 Speaker 1: and we suspect that it is some kind of congestive 438 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: failure that's going on, and we know he doesn't have, say, 439 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,640 Speaker 1: heart disease or something like that, then things come to mind. 440 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,920 Speaker 1: We begin to think was this and the six yeled 441 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 1: death or was this a drug death? And because many 442 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,680 Speaker 1: drugs that are out there. You mentioned the panel that's 443 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,919 Speaker 1: run and this is referred to as a post mortem panel. 444 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,119 Speaker 1: Was there anything on board? And let me tell you 445 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 1: the three sources primarily that we draw from from the 446 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:42,639 Speaker 1: body at autopsy. First off, we draw blood. Most of 447 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: the time that's going to come from the A order, 448 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,439 Speaker 1: which is a large vessel that runs off of the heart. Okay, 449 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 1: and sometimes we'll have to go for peripheral blood, particularly 450 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 1: if you've got a real massive trauma case. You might 451 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,199 Speaker 1: have to even know I've had to go into the 452 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,439 Speaker 1: federal artery in the leg in order to draw blood 453 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,919 Speaker 1: because there's been such copious blood loss. Then we're going 454 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,679 Speaker 1: to go and grab urine. People say, how do you 455 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: do that? Well, after you have the body open, you 456 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 1: can actually go into what's referred to as the roof 457 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 1: of the bladder and draw directly out of the bladder, 458 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: so you can get a rather robust sample of urine, 459 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,439 Speaker 1: which is pretty good a great source to look for 460 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:22,959 Speaker 1: a variety of different types of drugs. And then we 461 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 1: go and this often dissettles people. We go into the 462 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: eye and we draw what's referred to as vitreous fluid, 463 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 1: which is a viscous kind of fluid that provides form 464 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 1: to the eye. The reason our eyes are not flat, 465 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 1: they're filled with this viscous fluid. It holds onto things 466 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,680 Speaker 1: for a protracted period of time. You can't necessarily quantify 467 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:43,400 Speaker 1: the level of drugs that are there, but you can 468 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,879 Speaker 1: kind of qualify it. It's kind of like reading the 469 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,639 Speaker 1: rings on a tree. That's the way I've always compared 470 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 1: it in my simple mind. It helps me remember that 471 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: every now and then, we'll draw bile from gallbladder if 472 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: the gallbladder still exists. Many people have had closet sectomes 473 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: and gallbladder's no longer there. But here's the one thing 474 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,640 Speaker 1: that is really curious about this case, David. The authorities 475 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:09,639 Speaker 1: have in fact released the fact that they think whatever 476 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: this agent was, and they suspect right now that it 477 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,199 Speaker 1: was fentanyl because it was found ine system, that it 478 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 1: was ingested. This is not something he smoked, it's not 479 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 1: something he was injected with. Would you like me to 480 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:22,880 Speaker 1: tell you how they make that determination? 481 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 2: How would you possibly know the difference this is? 482 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 1: It's not again I talk about friends of pathology can 483 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 1: be layered and complicated all this stuff, but it's really 484 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 1: it's really common sense, we take gastric samples. So when 485 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,880 Speaker 1: we're doing our dissection in the body in the morgue, 486 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 1: what happens is is that when the stomach is examined, 487 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 1: first off, you don't examine it inside the body cavity. 488 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 1: You tie it off superior, like at the base of 489 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 1: the esophagus where it kind of dumps into the top 490 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,719 Speaker 1: part of the stomach. You tie it off there, you 491 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:02,400 Speaker 1: clip it above the tie off. Then you go inferior 492 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,120 Speaker 1: or below the stomach where it dumps into the small bowel, 493 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 1: and there's a loop of bowel that comes off there. 494 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 1: What you go through there and you tie that off. 495 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 1: All the other connective tissue that is going to hold 496 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,680 Speaker 1: the stomach in place is going to be trimmed away, 497 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:21,440 Speaker 1: and the stomach comes out like a big sack essentially. 498 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 1: And this is very important because once you get the 499 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 1: stomach outside of the body cavity, because if you open 500 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,640 Speaker 1: it up in the body cavity, it'll commingle with any 501 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 1: kind of residual blood that's come about from the autopsy 502 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: and this sort of thing. Place the stomach onto the 503 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 1: dissecting board and you get a big container. Right, you 504 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 1: hold one end of the stomach and let gravity do 505 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 1: the work. You clip one of the ends that has 506 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 1: been tied off, and the contents of the stomach literally 507 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 1: pour into these containers. I've seen it done in a 508 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: variety of ways. I've seen people actually dip the contents out, 509 00:28:58,160 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: but this is the most effective way because you can 510 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: at everything. One of the things that you first do 511 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 1: is you visualize. It's just the same with any other 512 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 1: kind of examination. You'll visualize. You're looking for what has 513 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 1: been ingested. And some food stuffs are very easy to appreciate, 514 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: particularly things that are green and leafy. You can pick 515 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 1: up on that pretty quickly. You can actually smell when 516 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: you open the stomach. The smell of alcohol, for some reason, 517 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: becomes highly concentrated when you open the stomach. If anybody's 518 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 1: even had one glass of wine, it'll not get back. 519 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 1: It's not like someone have you ever like the morning 520 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: after you've been around somebody that has been drinking the 521 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 1: night before and they kind of breathe on you. You can 522 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 1: get that odor of alcohol. And I know that there's 523 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: a lot of jokes made about that. Imagine that smell 524 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: that you smell coming off a living person and multiply 525 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 1: that by a factor of two and it'll knock you 526 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: to your knees many times. So you're trying to get 527 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 1: all of the contents, and so you're going to visualize 528 00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: these contents. You'll see autopsy reports that we'll talk about aromas. 529 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: Most famously, it's going to be alcohol. You know, there's 530 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: a distinct odor of alcohol, forensic pathologists will say. But 531 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 1: to the visual aspect, you're looking to see if there 532 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: are any particulate and remnant of drugs that are remaining white, 533 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 1: powdery little dots for instance. Depended upon the type of drug, 534 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 1: it is that it hasn't been fully digested in the 535 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 1: system yet. Now, if that fails, you take a sample 536 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 1: of that gastric content. Remember I talked about how we 537 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 1: dumped it into a container. Well you take a separate 538 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: tube and you pour that content into the tube and 539 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: that goes to the state crime lab and they will 540 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 1: run all of the panels that are standard now in 541 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:52,520 Speaker 1: the world in which we dwell. Nowadays, there is a 542 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 1: pestilence upon our country and it's fentoyl. It's so pervasive 543 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 1: it's used as an additive for drugs. Now, people will 544 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,959 Speaker 1: lace things with fentanyl. People have used fentyl, which is 545 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 1: a narcotic for a long time. You know, it's been 546 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: on the schedule of drugs that have been used used 547 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 1: by physicians for pain relief and all these sorts of things. 548 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 1: It's out there, but it's so insidious, Dave, that this 549 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: now is part of a standard forensic drug panel. If 550 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 1: you're looking to be stealthy in a poisoning, fentanyl is 551 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 1: not the way you want to go. It's not an exotic, 552 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 1: it's not something like we've got to send this drug 553 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 1: test off to Germany to see if they can find 554 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: find something there that we might not be thinking. No, no, no, 555 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 1: this is they're going to get a hit on this. 556 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: And once they determine that it's there, and that's when 557 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: you know you'd ask me early on, that's when you're 558 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:55,479 Speaker 1: going to Now once you've and I keep saying this, 559 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 1: once you've qualified it, that means that it is there, 560 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: then you're going to quantity fied. And in the case 561 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 1: of Eric Richins, police have decided something here. They've decided 562 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:13,239 Speaker 1: not only is Eric Richins's death a homicide, but it 563 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 1: is a homicide via fentyl. 564 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 2: So how much fentanyl would Eric Richins have ingested, how 565 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 2: much would it take to kill a person? And what 566 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 2: does fentanyl do to the body. 567 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: Joe, amazingly, Fentanyl is one of these drugs that when 568 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 1: it is it's essentially microdosed from the perspective of how 569 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: much is administered, even from a therapeutic you know, fentyl 570 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 1: traditionally has been a therapeutic drug, right, It's something that's 571 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 1: used in medical practice. It's a precursor many times for anesthesia. 572 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 1: And here's the thing. If you most of the time 573 00:32:55,120 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: when you take a drug, it's measured in milligram, right, Dave. 574 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 1: So if it's measured in milligrams, think about this. Fentanyl 575 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 1: is administered in micrograms. Okay, So just so you understand, 576 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 1: one microgram of fentanyl is equivalent to point zero zero 577 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 1: zero one milligrams of another drug. And when you get 578 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 1: up into the level of say, for instance, now we're 579 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 1: talking micrograms not milligrams. When you start to get up 580 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 1: into like one hundred and fifty micrograms, you're starting to 581 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 1: get up into that lethal level. It doesn't take much. 582 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, there's a there's a couple 583 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 1: of great images that are online. People can appreciate this. 584 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 1: It is granular, a granular presentation of fentanyl adjacent to 585 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: a penny. And when you see this comparison between the two, 586 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,800 Speaker 1: the penny and everyone knows what a penny looks like, 587 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 1: the penny looks gigantic and just that small doses that's 588 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 1: being demonstrated there in a physical sense, because it's really 589 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 1: hard to wrap your brain around these numbers. It looks 590 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 1: so tiny, but it is so very, very lethal. You 591 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:33,600 Speaker 1: have to think about what the mechanism is that occurs 592 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,320 Speaker 1: when fentanyl is ingested. You know what's its purpose? Well, 593 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:42,399 Speaker 1: the purpose with fentanyl being a precursor, for instance, for 594 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 1: something like anesthesia, something that's going to put you into 595 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 1: that kind of dream like state. You know, it's going 596 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 1: to press you down and down and down. Well, if 597 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 1: you give a person too much of this stuff, it 598 00:34:55,520 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 1: automatically goes to work obviously on the brain neurological centers, 599 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 1: but more specifically, it really compromises deepening. Upon how much 600 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 1: you have on board, it really compromises your ability to breathe. 601 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:13,439 Speaker 1: It will send and how many times have we talked 602 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 1: about this on body backs. With a lot of other drugs, 603 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:21,280 Speaker 1: particularly heroin, it will send the individual into respiratory distress. 604 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 1: And can you imagine you're in this kind of dream 605 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 1: like state and there's no way to kind of climb 606 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 1: up out of it. But maybe just meant maybe you're 607 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 1: sensing your inability to breathe. It's like being held beneath 608 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,879 Speaker 1: water and you can't breathe, you can't come up out 609 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,920 Speaker 1: of it, and your body's reacting. You start to convulse. 610 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 1: Perhaps your brain is screening for oxygen, but you can't 611 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:48,800 Speaker 1: uptake it at all, and so this is going to 612 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,640 Speaker 1: lead to respiratory failure. In many of these cases, you'll 613 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:56,120 Speaker 1: see that presentation that we see with heroin many times, 614 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 1: where the people will turn that kind of eggplant shade 615 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 1: of purple, they'll have the frothy, ademitous cone that's coming 616 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:05,960 Speaker 1: out of their mouth, and you just know that it's 617 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 1: a horrible, languishing way to die. It's and this is 618 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,640 Speaker 1: the really kind of you know, scary thing about it 619 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 1: is that it can be done so very stealthily. And 620 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 1: you know, in this case in particular, what the police 621 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:28,240 Speaker 1: are indicating is that this moscow mule had been laced 622 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 1: with this stuff. And we don't really have a firm 623 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,560 Speaker 1: figure on the levels that are involved. I think that 624 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:41,799 Speaker 1: we probably will eventually. But the sad thing is is 625 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:46,759 Speaker 1: that there are thousands and thousands of these cases, not 626 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,880 Speaker 1: exactly like this, but there are thousands and thousands of 627 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:55,280 Speaker 1: these cases all across the country where you have people 628 00:36:55,280 --> 00:37:03,279 Speaker 1: that are manufacturing these drugs that are including within the 629 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,400 Speaker 1: drug itself that they're selling, whether it's cocaine or heroin 630 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:08,920 Speaker 1: or whatever. And the thing about it is, it's like 631 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,640 Speaker 1: putting snake venom in everything that's being sold.