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Speaker 1: This episode includes detailed discussion of domestic violence. It can

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Speaker 1: be hard to hear, but we think it's important not

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Speaker 1: to gloss over the reality of what happened to Libpy

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Speaker 1: Caswell and what happens to countless other victims every day.

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Speaker 1: Please take care while listening.

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Speaker 2: I stayed for so many reasons, you know. I wanted

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Speaker 2: that image of what I saw for us when we

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Speaker 2: got married. I wanted my girls to have their dad around.

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Speaker 2: I wanted, you know, our family to be okay. I

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Speaker 2: just wanted us to be okay.

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Speaker 1: Domestic violence relationships have one thing in common, and imbalance

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Speaker 1: of power and control, but the behaviors used to maintain

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Speaker 1: that power can take many forms. Abuse that is physical, verbal,

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Speaker 1: sexual abuse can start subtly and get worse over time.

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Speaker 1: There can be periods of calm or a constant state

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Speaker 1: of threat. It can be difficult to recognize from the outside,

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Speaker 1: but also when you're in it. Whatever form it takes,

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Speaker 1: domestic violence is ubiquitous in their lifetimes. More than one

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Speaker 1: in three women in the US will experience rape, physical violence,

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Speaker 1: or stalking by an intimate partner in their lifetimes. About

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Speaker 1: one in four women will be subjected to severe physical

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Speaker 1: violence by their partner, hit with a fist or something hard, beaten,

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Speaker 1: slammed against something, and not all of them will survive it.

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Speaker 2: Strangulation became his go to method at the end of

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Speaker 2: our relationship. When I finally did get out, the only

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Speaker 2: reason I left really was because I wouldn't be here

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Speaker 2: today if I had said. He would have killed me.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure of it.

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Speaker 1: Libby Caswell endured years of domestic abuse, but we are

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Speaker 1: unable to share her experience in her own words. And

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Speaker 1: because we think it's important to let survivors speak for themselves,

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Speaker 1: we wanted to give them a voice. In this bonus episode,

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Speaker 1: our team spoke with five women who've all asked to

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Speaker 1: remain anonymous. Many of the stories may sound similar to

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Speaker 1: Libby's teenage love, drug use strangulation, but these stories are

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Speaker 1: all very different from Libby's in one key way. These

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Speaker 1: women are alive to share them. So I'm going to

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Speaker 1: step aside and let you hear their stories, the details

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Speaker 1: they remember and the ones they wish they could forget.

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Speaker 3: He was controlling, but at that time I was really young,

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Speaker 3: and I kind of romanticize the control and the extreme jealousy.

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Speaker 3: And in addition, to that. Friends and family would encourage

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Speaker 3: me to believe, Oh my gosh, he loves you so much,

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Speaker 3: and this is why he's doing this. You're so lucky.

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Speaker 4: He was always angry. He would punch walls or punch trees,

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Speaker 4: or slam doors and punch the bed to create an

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Speaker 4: environment of physical intimidation threat.

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Speaker 2: I thought, like, he's got a temper, he can be

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Speaker 2: really mean. But it wasn't physical, or was you know,

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Speaker 2: I guess emotional more so, But I didn't see it

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Speaker 2: as abuse at that time.

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Speaker 3: All the red flux were there. I was just didn't

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Speaker 3: have the capacity to understand it.

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Speaker 4: When I started dating my abusive boyfriend, a lot of

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Speaker 4: it started as emotional abuse, psychological abuse, verbal abuse, and

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Speaker 4: I told myself if it were to ever get physical,

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Speaker 4: then I would leave because in my mind at the time,

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Speaker 4: I thought physical findings is the worst thing that could

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Speaker 4: happen to me.

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Speaker 2: The first time that he ever put his hands on

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Speaker 2: me was actually right after we had our first child,

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Speaker 2: and it was my first night out as a new mom.

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Speaker 4: A year and a half into our relationship. It physical,

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Speaker 4: and in that first instance where he was physically violent

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Speaker 4: with me, I ran home to my parents and I

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Speaker 4: cried and I confessed everything.

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Speaker 2: We had gone to a concert and we came out

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Speaker 2: of the concert, and then all of a sudden, he

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Speaker 2: grabbed me and threw me on the ground in front

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Speaker 2: of all of these people and all of our friends.

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Speaker 4: And at the time, my parents didn't know a lot

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Speaker 4: about the legal system in America. They are immigrants, their

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Speaker 4: first language isn't English, So they asked me if I

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Speaker 4: wanted to report it to the police, and I decided

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Speaker 4: not to because what's so tricky about domestic violence is

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Speaker 4: that even though my boyfriend had just been physically violent

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Speaker 4: with me, I still loved him and I still wanted

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Speaker 4: to protect him.

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Speaker 2: And it happened so fast, and all of our friends

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Speaker 2: like kind of swooped in and grabbed him and took

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Speaker 2: him away, and I remember thinking, like, what the hell

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Speaker 2: was that.

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Speaker 4: I did recognize that something was off about my relationship

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Speaker 4: when he became physically violent with me, but there was

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Speaker 4: always something in my head saying, well, you're just not

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Speaker 4: a good enough partner. You just need to change yourself.

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Speaker 4: You just need to make yourself a better partner. Then

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Speaker 4: the violence will stop.

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Speaker 2: And I was pissed. If I'm gonna be honest, I

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Speaker 2: was really, really angry, and I was one of those

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Speaker 2: like fiercely independent women, like no man's ever gonna put

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Speaker 2: his hands on me, And then that situation came to

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Speaker 2: me directly, and so it was, Okay, what are you

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Speaker 2: going to do now?

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Speaker 5: Whenever got upset, was always to go up to my

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Speaker 5: face and grabbed by the leg.

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Speaker 2: The first time I experienced strangulation in my relationship was

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Speaker 2: on my thirtieth birthday.

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Speaker 3: Was around our second year of dating.

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Speaker 4: Was actually during sex.

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Speaker 3: I remember clearly because at the time I was the

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Speaker 3: youngest living with my parents and both of them were

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Speaker 3: at work and I was alone at home. He just

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Speaker 3: knocked at the door, and I remember feeling really scared

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Speaker 3: because his eyes look lost. He was under the influence

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Speaker 3: of crystal math.

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Speaker 2: My ex had planned this whole elaborate birthday party for me,

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Speaker 2: and he had gotten belligerent, and I had two children

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Speaker 2: at the time, and our baby was sick, and so

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Speaker 2: I was like, you know what, this is silly, We're

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Speaker 2: going home. And as we were driving home, it was

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Speaker 2: only about five minutes, but he punished me in the

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Speaker 2: face on the way home, and when we pulled into

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Speaker 2: the driveway, I got out, and he came around the

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Speaker 2: car and he grabbed me by my throat and slammed

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Speaker 2: me against the garage.

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Speaker 4: It was definitely shocking to me because we were being

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Speaker 4: intimate and all of a sudden he laid his hands

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Speaker 4: on my neck, and I think he had gotten the

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Speaker 4: notion that I would enjoy this, perhaps as a sexual act,

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Speaker 4: but since there really was no consent involved in that,

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Speaker 4: it made me incredibly terrified.

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Speaker 3: On his way out, I just was like standing holding

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Speaker 3: the door open for him to leave, and he looked

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Speaker 3: at me directly and put his hand around my neck.

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Speaker 3: And he is a pretty tall guy, around sixty sixth one,

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Speaker 3: and he's big hands, so it only took him one

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Speaker 3: hand to just go around my whole neck.

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Speaker 2: He was holding me up by my throat against the garage,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, he's going to kill me, and

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Speaker 2: then he slammed me on the ground and cracked my

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Speaker 2: head open. And then he went inside the house, and

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Speaker 2: I remember thinking, oh, thank god, I'm okay, and I

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Speaker 2: grabbed the kids out of the car really quickly, and

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Speaker 2: he had locked me out of the house. So I

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Speaker 2: broke into our bedroom through the window holding the kids,

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Speaker 2: and I barricaded us in the bedroom.

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Speaker 3: And I just remember just thinking about who he was

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Speaker 3: asked to what was happening in that moment. I just

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Speaker 3: was in shock and couldn't believe it. I just was

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Speaker 3: like so terrified that she felt pretty comfortable doing that

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Speaker 3: to me.

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Speaker 5: He would do it to a point before killing me.

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Speaker 5: It was more of proving a point. I'm the boss,

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Speaker 5: you listen to me, you obeyed to me, and then

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Speaker 5: release you.

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Speaker 2: I remember sitting in the bathroom like smoking a cigarette, thinking,

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Speaker 2: I can't believe this just freaking happened to me. So

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Speaker 2: that was the first time, not the last.

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Speaker 4: I actually thought that strangulation was pretty normal, or it

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Speaker 4: happened so often that it became so normalized. It didn't

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Speaker 4: especially stand out to me as a red flag. It

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Speaker 4: was just another kind of manipulation tactic, another method for

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Speaker 4: him to gain power and control over me.

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Speaker 3: Once he realized that he had the power to do that,

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Speaker 3: then what was going to stop him to do more

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Speaker 3: things in the future.

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Speaker 5: For so many years, it went from actual hitting, pushing,

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Speaker 5: leaving bruises on my arms and realizing, oh, there's bruises,

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Speaker 5: to strictly using the weight of his body and usually

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Speaker 5: was like, I'm the bed like way to his body

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Speaker 5: on me and choking, and then I remember having to

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Speaker 5: learn how to do self defense, how to hurt him

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Speaker 5: a center area so he would release because my fear

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Speaker 5: was always all good killed.

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Speaker 3: When I got pregnant and I started leaving with him,

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Speaker 3: that's when the physical abuse was more intense and frequent

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Speaker 3: in the relationship. So he felt he had a more

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Speaker 3: power to do anything that he wanted. However, he was

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Speaker 3: a very intelligent person and he would physically abuse me,

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Speaker 3: but not to the point of leaving any marks on

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Speaker 3: my body. He was pretty aware of the consequences of

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Speaker 3: having some sort of physical bruth or mark on my body.

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Speaker 2: I had marks that time, and I was like, oh

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Speaker 2: my gosh, people are going to see this. And I'm

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Speaker 2: a social worker, and that was something I struggled with

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Speaker 2: for the entire time because I thought I helped people

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Speaker 2: that are in the same situation that I'm in, and

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Speaker 2: I'm you know, like pretty much preaching what I'm not practicing,

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Speaker 2: and so that was really also embarrassing for me, I think,

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Speaker 2: which contributed to me not saying anything.

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Speaker 4: I was a pretty popular student during high school and

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Speaker 4: I definitely put on a facade of how great my

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Speaker 4: life was, and to everyone else, it seemed like I

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Speaker 4: had the perfect boyfriend, and to admit to my friends

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Speaker 4: that hey, actually I'm being abused by him on an

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Speaker 4: everyday basis was terrifying for me.

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Speaker 2: I never talked about anything that happened to me with

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Speaker 2: anybody until I actually left for the final time. He

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Speaker 2: was very charismatic and like he was fun and funny,

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Speaker 2: and I tried to protect that, I think, and not

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Speaker 2: show him in a different life to our friends and family,

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Speaker 2: and especially my family, I think, because they already weren't

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Speaker 2: sure about him from the get go, and so I

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Speaker 2: really didn't want to make him look bad in any way.

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Speaker 4: I was with my abuser when we were teenagers, and

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Speaker 4: I think that made it incredibly more difficult for me

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Speaker 4: to seek out resources, seek out support. I was terrified

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Speaker 4: of sharing with my parents and my sister because I

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Speaker 4: thought that they wouldn't believe me, and that they would

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Speaker 4: instead chastise me for being with someone at such a

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Speaker 4: young age, for engaging in sex at such an early age.

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Speaker 4: So I felt so incredibly alone.

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Speaker 3: I never told anyone. I never told anyone what had happened.

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Speaker 3: I didn't want to believe what had happened, and it

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Speaker 3: was scary to even think about it, and of course

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't imagine myself sharing it with anyone. And it

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Speaker 3: was shameful too, right, just like, oh my gosh, I

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Speaker 3: have this wonderful, charming, handsome boyfriend. What is people going

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Speaker 3: to say?

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Speaker 5: Why did I say, by yours? That's what I was

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Speaker 5: supposed to do, because till death do your part is

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Speaker 5: your vows and you have to honor it for your

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Speaker 5: family's namesake, for your religious sake, for your culture's sake.

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Speaker 5: You want to be the one who did everything right,

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Speaker 5: And damn it.

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Speaker 2: There's a one thing.

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Speaker 3: How did you do right? I didn't pick the right person.

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Speaker 3: How do I make this better?

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Speaker 4: When you're in love with an abuser, your logic changes.

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Speaker 4: They're so good at changing your logic to a point

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Speaker 4: where abuse is all that you know, it's all that

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Speaker 4: you think about, it's all that you justify. I would

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Speaker 4: have done anything to make my abuser happy. His happiness

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Speaker 4: was the most important thing to me on the planet.

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Speaker 4: I thought that this was just my reality, this was

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Speaker 4: the rest of my wife. That I would of course

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Speaker 4: get married to him. Of course I would have children

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Speaker 4: with him, and this is just something I would endure

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Speaker 4: for the rest of my life.

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Speaker 1: We'll be right back after the break with more from

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Speaker 1: these women, including how they got out of their abusive

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Speaker 1: relationships and how they feel about it now. It can

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Speaker 1: take many attempts to leave an abusive relationship. Libby left

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Speaker 1: Devon multiple times and came back just as many. This

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Speaker 1: can be hard to understand from the outside. These women

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Speaker 1: stories illustrate the risks and costs of leaving, but ultimately

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Speaker 1: they did leave for good.

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Speaker 4: That weekend where I visited him in college was one

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Speaker 4: of the worst weekends I've ever experienced in my life.

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Speaker 4: Because we had been going to different colleges, the emotional

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Speaker 4: and verbal abuse he was putting me through was heightened

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Speaker 4: because he couldn't physically touch me, he couldn't sexually abuse me.

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Speaker 4: But when I saw him in person, now in the flesh,

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Speaker 4: I had all four kinds of abuse that I was experiencing.

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Speaker 4: So the emotional and verbal abuse continued, but now the

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Speaker 4: physical violence and the sexual violence were occurring because we

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Speaker 4: were now physically together. So after that trip, I returned

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Speaker 4: home and I decided to break up with him. But

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Speaker 4: often when survivors try to leave, it takes them on

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Speaker 4: average anywhere from seven to eleven times to actually leave

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Speaker 4: the relationship, and at that point it probably was my

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Speaker 4: third or fourth time trying to leave the relationship.

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Speaker 2: Then I got to the point that he was strangling

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Speaker 2: me and I was welcoming it. I was like, please

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Speaker 2: just and kill me, you know, I just fucking kill me.

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Speaker 2: And that really really was what kind of kicked my

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Speaker 2: husband a gear that scared me that I was welcoming it,

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Speaker 2: and I had gotten so desperate and wanted out of

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Speaker 2: that situation so badly that I just wanted him to

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Speaker 2: kill me. And then I thought, what's going to happen

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Speaker 2: to my girls? It scared the crap out of me.

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Speaker 2: And one night he came home and told me to

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Speaker 2: get the buck out of his house and take my

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Speaker 2: fucking children with me. And I listened and I didn't

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Speaker 2: ever turn around. I called my brother. He flew out day,

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Speaker 2: brought a duffel bag and said, just pack which you

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Speaker 2: can carry, and so for me and my three girls

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Speaker 2: through whatever we could carry into one duffel bag, and

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Speaker 2: he got us out of there while my husband at

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Speaker 2: the time was just watching us from his car, and

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Speaker 2: you just sat there and watched and like kind of

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Speaker 2: taunted us.

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Speaker 5: Eventually I got the courage to say I'm done, and

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Speaker 5: he attacked me. It was really bad, and I ended

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Speaker 5: up in the hospital and you know, in a hole.

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Speaker 5: That was there for three days, but it felt like

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Speaker 5: I was in a safe place because there were individuals

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Speaker 5: like me. And that was when I realized, being away

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Speaker 5: to him, like I have a way out, I have

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Speaker 5: a lot to live. I had a great therapist in

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Speaker 5: there that reminded me that I still have plenty of

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Speaker 5: years to live and I was able to take get

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Speaker 5: out of that scenario because of that. Realizing the way

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Speaker 5: I still see God and religion it's not the way

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Speaker 5: of to get through part. No matter what they do,

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Speaker 5: it's only when they honor you. It's a mutual honor.

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Speaker 5: And realizing that gave me so much freedom.

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Speaker 3: My son started to imitate his behavior. My son was

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Speaker 3: around six at that time, and that was impactful to me.

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Speaker 3: I cannot allow this to happen. Seeing my son, I

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Speaker 3: knew if I had said, he would have totally adopted

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Speaker 3: that behavior, and my daughters were going to learn what

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Speaker 3: I was doing. Ye, so that really helped me have

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Speaker 3: the courage to leave that a music relationship. At that time,

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Speaker 3: we were leaving his mother's home and he would not

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Speaker 3: allow me to live with my kids. I was undocumented

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Speaker 3: and he was documented, so he used my latest status

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Speaker 3: to threw me to take me to Tajuana and kill me,

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Speaker 3: you know, or to take the kids to Mexico. And

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Speaker 3: I would never find out where he was with my kids,

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Speaker 3: and it got to the point where I was one

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Speaker 3: hundred percent isolated from my family and friends. But my

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Speaker 3: parents got really worried that they were not able to

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Speaker 3: talk to me, and one time they just came to

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Speaker 3: visit and my father was like, what's going on And

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Speaker 3: I was like, Oh, everything's okay. I'm just like, you know,

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Speaker 3: out all the time, busy with the kids. He's like, no,

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Speaker 3: but we know what's happening. Then my father was like,

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Speaker 3: you're not my daughter anymore, and I want my daughter back.

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Speaker 3: It really helped me to leave the shame and fear

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Speaker 3: off my shoulders and knowing that I was not alone.

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Speaker 3: So after that, I just came not with the plan

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Speaker 3: to leave, but that was just the beginning of a

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Speaker 3: long journey of leaving safely and seeing safe with my kids.

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Speaker 4: Leaving an abusive relationship, You're afraid to love again. You're

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Speaker 4: afraid to trust others because you might feel that people

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Speaker 4: are inherently bad or people are out to get you.

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Speaker 4: When I look back at my younger self, sometimes I

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Speaker 4: wish I could shake her shoulders and be like, there

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Speaker 4: are eight billion people in the world I have yet

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Speaker 4: to meet, so many amazing people that I don't need

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Speaker 4: to endure this. There are many many people I'll continue

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Speaker 4: to meet who would love me for who I am,

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Speaker 4: will never ever lay their hands on me, never ever

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Speaker 4: say disgusting insults and comments to me, and I wouldn't

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Speaker 4: have to spend the majority of my days crying and

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Speaker 4: screaming and feeling so incredibly low.

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Speaker 2: The aftermath has been quite a roller coaster. We're going on,

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Speaker 2: let's see, nine years that I got out, and I

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Speaker 2: still have hard days. I still, you know, because I

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Speaker 2: still have scars from him, I still have marks. But

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Speaker 2: definitely the emotional abuse was brutal, Like I was a

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Speaker 2: shell of a person when I came back, and that

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Speaker 2: has taken a lot of time and work, and I

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Speaker 2: kind of just dove into like things that I loved

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Speaker 2: because he had take and all those away from me

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Speaker 2: that has been my path to kind of healing. I

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Speaker 2: know that I have a longer way to go, and

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Speaker 2: I think that's hard for me. I feel frustrated sometimes

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Speaker 2: because I think, God, I should be better by now,

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Speaker 2: and I can't rush it. You know, there's no rushing it,

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Speaker 2: and so I have to kind of take a step

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Speaker 2: back and say, you know, you'll be okay when you're

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Speaker 2: supposed to be okay, which isn't always easy.

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Speaker 5: And actually do have a scar from my then spouse.

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Speaker 5: He did cut me pretty bad in one of my arms,

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Speaker 5: and I actually do have a scar in my body

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Speaker 5: that always reminds me I did live this. But you

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Speaker 5: carry these cars, but people don't see those cars because

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Speaker 5: they're in your heart. They're in your soul, they're in

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Speaker 5: your mind, they're in your triggers, they're in the defense

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Speaker 5: mechanism that you built around yourself.

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Speaker 2: You have to be okay with the uncertainty of what

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Speaker 2: lies ahead, and it's okay if you make mistakes. It's

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Speaker 2: okay if you don't do things right the first time,

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Speaker 2: second time, third time. You know, just be patient with yourself.

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Speaker 2: I think that would be the best advice I can give.

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Speaker 1: If you or anyone you know is experiencing domestic abuse,

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Speaker 1: you can call the National Domestic Abuse Hotline for help.

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Speaker 1: That number is one eight hundred seven nine nine seven

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Speaker 1: two three three. Thank you also to the National Network

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Speaker 1: to End Domestic Violence for their help with this episode.

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Speaker 1: For more information, you can visit their website to find

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Speaker 1: a coalition near you at NNEDV dot org. What Happened

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Speaker 1: To Libby Caswell is written, reported, and hosted by me

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Speaker 1: Melissa Jelson. This episode was written by Lauren Hansen and

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Speaker 1: edited and mixed by Jeremy Thal. Our executive producer is

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Speaker 1: Ryan Murda. For iHeart Podcasts, executive producers are Jason English

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Speaker 1: and Katrina Norvel, with our supervising producer Carl Catl. Our

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Speaker 1: theme song is written by Aaron Kaufman and performed by

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Speaker 1: Aaron Kaufman and Elizabeth Woolf. Original music by Aaron Kaufman

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Speaker 1: with additional music by Jeremy Thal. To find out more

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Speaker 1: about my investigation or to send a tip, please email

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Speaker 1: me at what Happened to Libby at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening.

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Speaker 6: Five in Pieces in Peace Bundoo, you say what a

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Speaker 6: way A five Mine so, and pe Sais and the

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Speaker 6: Sais and the th