1
00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:05,800
Speaker 1: Of all the hundreds of xuneries that I've had the

2
00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:10,040
Speaker 1: privilege to meet, none have touched my heart any more

3
00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:13,760
Speaker 1: profoundly than Marty Tankliffe. And his case is profiled, by

4
00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:16,120
Speaker 1: the way, in one of the most incredible books I've

5
00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:20,840
Speaker 1: ever read. It's called A Criminal Injustice, A True Crime,

6
00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:24,760
Speaker 1: a False Confession, and the Fight to Free Marty Tankliff.

7
00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:27,880
Speaker 1: It's by Richard Firshman and J. Saltpeter. It reads like

8
00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:31,840
Speaker 1: a John Grisham novel, but it's all true. Marty is

9
00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:38,320
Speaker 1: an incredible human. Since his episode originally aired on November seven,

10
00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:42,040
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, a number of amazing developments have happened in

11
00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:45,280
Speaker 1: Marty's life. He received in twenty eighteen a ten million

12
00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:48,120
Speaker 1: dollars settlement, which, by the way, you could put another

13
00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:49,800
Speaker 1: zero on it still wouldn't make up for what he

14
00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:53,440
Speaker 1: went through. Marty passed a Bar exam, and he's pursuing

15
00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:57,080
Speaker 1: a career as an attorney, advocating criminal justice reform and

16
00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:01,760
Speaker 1: fighting to write wrongful convictions. And if that wasn't enough

17
00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:05,560
Speaker 1: for you, Marty is now a professor at Georgetown University,

18
00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:10,440
Speaker 1: leading a class with Professor Mark Howard that is helping

19
00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:13,880
Speaker 1: to resolve wrong for conviction cases. They already had their

20
00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:17,160
Speaker 1: first win in the case of Valentino Dixon, who's been

21
00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:22,080
Speaker 1: on my show. Marty Tankliffe a profile and courage, an

22
00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:26,840
Speaker 1: unbelievable story that you have to hear, so please listen

23
00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:31,279
Speaker 1: to my interview with Marty Tankliffe.

24
00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:34,559
Speaker 2: I came from a beautiful neighborhood.

25
00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:37,800
Speaker 3: I had a beautiful life.

26
00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:40,640
Speaker 2: I went to sleep because September seventh was the first

27
00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:42,880
Speaker 2: day of my high school year. I was going to

28
00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:43,399
Speaker 2: be a senior.

29
00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:45,720
Speaker 3: At twenty two, I was set to start college.

30
00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:49,360
Speaker 2: I woke up and my life was never the same again.

31
00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:53,400
Speaker 3: Cops came out with guns drawn, and I never saw

32
00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:56,880
Speaker 3: freedom ever since after that. It's like roach mode, Tom,

33
00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,200
Speaker 3: once you get in and I can't now.

34
00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:10,160
Speaker 1: This is wrongful conviction. With Jason Flumm. I'm very excited

35
00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:13,640
Speaker 1: today because I have two people who I consider heroes

36
00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,519
Speaker 1: of mine for different sets of reasons on the show.

37
00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:20,760
Speaker 1: Marty Tankleff is here today. Marty is an exonery who

38
00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:25,200
Speaker 1: was wrongfully convicted of murdering his parents, which I get

39
00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:29,079
Speaker 1: the chills just hearing myself say that, and he's going

40
00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:33,840
Speaker 1: to share his remarkable story of going through what could

41
00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,000
Speaker 1: be considered one of the most traumatic experiences that any

42
00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:42,400
Speaker 1: human being could ever endure, and his subsequent triumph post exoneration.

43
00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:45,760
Speaker 1: You will be amazed at what he's been able to

44
00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:49,880
Speaker 1: accomplish and overcome. We also have today, Saul Cassen, and

45
00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:52,120
Speaker 1: I'm going to Embarrassaul a little bit by reading part

46
00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:57,040
Speaker 1: of his resume, because it's quite extraordinary. Saul is a

47
00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:00,800
Speaker 1: true hero of the Innocent's movement. He's English Professor of

48
00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,240
Speaker 1: psychology at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New

49
00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:07,600
Speaker 1: York and Massachusetts Professor emeritus at Williams College. He's received

50
00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:12,560
Speaker 1: his PhD at the University of Connecticut. Moreover, Saul pioneered

51
00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,760
Speaker 1: in the eighties the scientific study of false confessions by

52
00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:21,519
Speaker 1: introducing a taxonomy that distinguished between three types of false confessions, voluntary, compliant,

53
00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:25,880
Speaker 1: and internalized that is universally accepted today. He has recently

54
00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:29,840
Speaker 1: studied forensic confirmation biases and the impact that confessions have

55
00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:33,600
Speaker 1: on judges, juries, lay witnesses, forensic science examiners, and the

56
00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:38,600
Speaker 1: plea bargaining process. He is widely considered the foremost expert

57
00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:42,800
Speaker 1: on false confessions. So welcome both of you. Thanks for

58
00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:44,160
Speaker 1: coming in and joining us today.

59
00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:45,480
Speaker 2: Thank you for having us.

60
00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:48,920
Speaker 1: Marty. Let's start with you. So let's go back to

61
00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:50,440
Speaker 1: you grew up in Long Island.

62
00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:54,120
Speaker 2: I grew up in an affluent area called Beltan, New York,

63
00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:56,720
Speaker 2: which is a little hamlet in Port Jeffice in New

64
00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:01,680
Speaker 2: York North Shore, Suffolk County. I was lived in a

65
00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:06,000
Speaker 2: kind of a wonderful area. I went to Portreffson High School,

66
00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:09,640
Speaker 2: where the norm was we drove nice cars, we went

67
00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:14,320
Speaker 2: on boats. And what happened to me was not something

68
00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:17,520
Speaker 2: myself or anyone in my neighborhood could have ever imagined.

69
00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:19,240
Speaker 4: No, no one could imagine it.

70
00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:23,840
Speaker 1: You had a happy childhood, a nuclear family, right, you

71
00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:24,440
Speaker 1: and your sister.

72
00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:28,280
Speaker 2: Your parents idyllic, A little bit more idyllic because I

73
00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:32,000
Speaker 2: was adopted, so my parents were older. So a lot

74
00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:34,839
Speaker 2: of what we did growing up, my father live viciously

75
00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:37,960
Speaker 2: through me because he didn't have a very good childhood.

76
00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,000
Speaker 2: So you know, we had the boats, the ATVs, we

77
00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:44,240
Speaker 2: traveled a lot, so it was very It was a

78
00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:45,120
Speaker 2: great childhood.

79
00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:47,760
Speaker 4: And he was the bagel king, right he What.

80
00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:51,080
Speaker 2: He did was is my father was an entrepreneur who

81
00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:54,919
Speaker 2: invested with Jerry Steuerman, who was then known as the

82
00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:56,240
Speaker 2: bagel King of Long Island.

83
00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:01,919
Speaker 1: Right, So everything's fine, everything's good until one really terrible,

84
00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,359
Speaker 1: fateful day. And let's talk about that. And we're going

85
00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:06,800
Speaker 1: to get to you, Saul in a minute when we

86
00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:09,760
Speaker 1: get into the deeper issues surrounding what happened to Marty.

87
00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:14,200
Speaker 1: But first I want to set the stage. So you're

88
00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,080
Speaker 1: at home, right, typical day, you wake up in the morning,

89
00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:18,560
Speaker 1: walk us through this.

90
00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,360
Speaker 2: Let me give you a little background. My father was

91
00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:25,280
Speaker 2: partners with Jerry Struman, had invested over a half a

92
00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:28,080
Speaker 2: million dollars with Jerry in his bagel stores and horses,

93
00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:31,960
Speaker 2: and in the summer of nineteen eighty eight their relationship

94
00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:35,480
Speaker 2: significantly deteriorated. What I later learned was is that we

95
00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,880
Speaker 2: believe my father learned what Jerry's business was really about.

96
00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:43,080
Speaker 2: Jerry's son, Todd, was a drug dealer, and we believe

97
00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,080
Speaker 2: my father kind of realized that the bagel businesses may

98
00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:50,440
Speaker 2: have been a money wandering operation for Todd's drug dealing business.

99
00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:52,280
Speaker 4: And we're talking hard drugs, now, hard drugs.

100
00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:58,080
Speaker 2: Todd was arrested, went to prison for possession of cocaine, marijuana,

101
00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:01,200
Speaker 2: and other drugs, and he of time in New York

102
00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:06,000
Speaker 2: State Prisons. But my father was a tough older man.

103
00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,040
Speaker 2: Nothing would stop him. And one of the things that

104
00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:11,480
Speaker 2: he was involved with was is there was a weekly

105
00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:15,159
Speaker 2: poker game, and on September sixth was his night to

106
00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:18,039
Speaker 2: hold the weekly poker game. And one of the members

107
00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:21,960
Speaker 2: at that game was Jerry Struerman. And my father was

108
00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,320
Speaker 2: a type of man. It didn't matter, you know, how

109
00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:28,360
Speaker 2: much threatening Jerry Struman did. And there were threats. We

110
00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:32,640
Speaker 2: later learned about two weeks before September sixth, Jerry Steuerman

111
00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:36,200
Speaker 2: threatened to cut my father's tongue out, and it got

112
00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:39,160
Speaker 2: so bad that my father was even looking into buying

113
00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:41,040
Speaker 2: a shotgun because he was fearful.

114
00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:44,440
Speaker 1: Right, So it seems crazy that he would still allow

115
00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:46,080
Speaker 1: him into his house. But as you said, your dad

116
00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:47,920
Speaker 1: was a tough guy. He didn't really fear anyone. And

117
00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,560
Speaker 1: now we've set the stage. There's the poker game, right,

118
00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:53,839
Speaker 1: there's obviously a tense environment right with the two of

119
00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:55,440
Speaker 1: them in the room.

120
00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:57,520
Speaker 4: And but you went to sleep.

121
00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,600
Speaker 2: I went to sleep because September seventh was the first

122
00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:01,880
Speaker 2: day of my high school year.

123
00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:03,599
Speaker 4: You were going to be a senior.

124
00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:05,599
Speaker 2: I was going to be a senior. Right, and I

125
00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,320
Speaker 2: woke up and my life was never the same again.

126
00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:11,000
Speaker 4: So you woke up in the morning, and the.

127
00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,760
Speaker 2: Situation was that I woke up that morning, noticed that

128
00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:17,240
Speaker 2: the lights were on in my house. The house wasn't

129
00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:18,000
Speaker 2: locked up.

130
00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:20,760
Speaker 4: Walked through the house and they were upstairs.

131
00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:23,520
Speaker 2: It's a ranch house. It's a very long ranch house.

132
00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:25,760
Speaker 2: Where the bedrooms were in one end of the house,

133
00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:30,000
Speaker 2: where the card game was was in the complete opposite.

134
00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:31,600
Speaker 4: End of the house, right, So you wouldn't have heard any.

135
00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:35,360
Speaker 2: Would have heard anything. And I discovered my father who

136
00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,640
Speaker 2: was still sitting in his office chair, and he was alive,

137
00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:40,120
Speaker 2: and he was.

138
00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:44,720
Speaker 4: Bleeding, bleeding profusely, profusely. Yes, and what'd you do?

139
00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:49,360
Speaker 2: I called nine one one and I followed their instructions,

140
00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:51,800
Speaker 2: and eventually law enforcement showed up.

141
00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,160
Speaker 1: Right. They told you to wrap them as best you

142
00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:56,480
Speaker 1: could give you, gave you some medical tips whatever, try

143
00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:58,280
Speaker 1: to stop the bleeding, that kind of stuff.

144
00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:01,720
Speaker 2: Right, And within a short period of time, law enforcement

145
00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:02,240
Speaker 2: showed up.

146
00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:04,040
Speaker 4: At the house. Where's your mom?

147
00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:07,600
Speaker 2: I ended up My mother was actually in her bedroom.

148
00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,880
Speaker 2: Cops come and immediately they removed me.

149
00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:11,400
Speaker 4: From the house.

150
00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,840
Speaker 2: And what I kind of can say now is that

151
00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:18,800
Speaker 2: The process of questioning me, trying to find out what

152
00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:22,600
Speaker 2: happened started almost immediately. Even when I had family members

153
00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:26,200
Speaker 2: show up that morning, there was this immediate separation. I

154
00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,320
Speaker 2: was told consistently I was being taken to the hospital.

155
00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:32,800
Speaker 2: Unfortunately I was never taken to the hospital. I ended

156
00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:34,679
Speaker 2: up being taken to police headquarters.

157
00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,800
Speaker 1: So they took you to police headquarters because and obviously

158
00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:41,760
Speaker 1: this whole sort of pattern is emerging right where they

159
00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:43,760
Speaker 1: wanted to They had an agenda.

160
00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:46,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know at that day, I didn't

161
00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:49,200
Speaker 2: know that. When I was seventeen years old, my father

162
00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:52,960
Speaker 2: was the police commissioner of our little community. I was

163
00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,559
Speaker 2: raised to trust law enforcement, believe in them. Law enforcement

164
00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,839
Speaker 2: wouldn't lie to you, they wouldn't deceive you. Unfortunately, that's

165
00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:01,319
Speaker 2: everything that they did that morning.

166
00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:03,240
Speaker 1: Right, and you're in an extremely fragile state, and you

167
00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:05,079
Speaker 1: need help, right, you need someone to help you. You're

168
00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:09,199
Speaker 1: seventeen years old, right, I mean it's and still a child, basically.

169
00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:11,880
Speaker 2: Still a child. And every time a family member showed

170
00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:14,160
Speaker 2: up or a friend showed up, they were ripped away

171
00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,040
Speaker 2: again that morning. So when my brother in law showed up,

172
00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:20,720
Speaker 2: he was ripped away. When my godfather, who was also

173
00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:24,560
Speaker 2: the family attorney, showed up. I saw him. He never

174
00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:27,760
Speaker 2: saw me. But McCready, who was the lead detective. His

175
00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:29,760
Speaker 2: name is Kay James McCready was the lead detective on

176
00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:33,520
Speaker 2: the case, ran to him and basically told him I

177
00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:36,040
Speaker 2: was already on the way to the hospital. I wasn't

178
00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:37,160
Speaker 2: at the house, even though I.

179
00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:38,440
Speaker 4: Was at the house, right.

180
00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:45,600
Speaker 1: So there's a pattern of deception and maneuvers that are disingenuous.

181
00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:45,680
Speaker 4: At best, let's say.

182
00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:48,280
Speaker 1: But the fact is, at this point, were you aware

183
00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:52,240
Speaker 1: that your mom had been killed. Yes, So you're in

184
00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:56,319
Speaker 1: a state of total shock panic. How can you even

185
00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:56,920
Speaker 1: describe it?

186
00:09:57,640 --> 00:09:58,720
Speaker 2: Words can't describe it.

187
00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,080
Speaker 4: I mean, people, it's you were close to your parents.

188
00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:05,520
Speaker 2: They were my parents, I mean adopted you and everything

189
00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:07,800
Speaker 2: I was not before I was born. That the parents

190
00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:11,240
Speaker 2: the only parents I ever knew. They I have the

191
00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:14,760
Speaker 2: most amazing childhood. I mean there was nothing I didn't

192
00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:18,319
Speaker 2: have growing up. You know, people used to joke that

193
00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,280
Speaker 2: I was a spoiled kid, and I was, but my

194
00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:24,400
Speaker 2: father instilled amazing work values in me. I was working

195
00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,280
Speaker 2: since I was probably eleven or twelve years old, but

196
00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:29,440
Speaker 2: I traveled with my with my parents. I mean, I

197
00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:30,400
Speaker 2: did everything with them.

198
00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:35,239
Speaker 1: So let's get to the interrogation and the false confession

199
00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,800
Speaker 1: in prison and the whole saga you used to ended

200
00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:39,839
Speaker 1: up serving.

201
00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:42,760
Speaker 2: Six three hundred and thirty eight days, which is about

202
00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:44,960
Speaker 2: seventeen and a half years. What I tell people is,

203
00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,880
Speaker 2: I said, imagine, you know, seventeen years. What you know,

204
00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:51,960
Speaker 2: from the time you're born to the time you're seventeen,

205
00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:58,240
Speaker 2: losing the entire period, or losing your entire twenties, your thirties.

206
00:10:57,880 --> 00:10:59,640
Speaker 1: From seventies, well, you know, the first few years you

207
00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:01,079
Speaker 1: don't even know what's going on. But the fact it is,

208
00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:03,840
Speaker 1: from seventeen to thirty four, that's when you're building your life.

209
00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,120
Speaker 1: That's really you know, those are the formative years for

210
00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:16,720
Speaker 1: anybody to establish relationships, you know, both personal, sexual, business, college,

211
00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:19,520
Speaker 1: All that stuff's out the window. So all let's I mean,

212
00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:21,760
Speaker 1: you're obviously very familiar with Mary's case. You've known Marty

213
00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:23,959
Speaker 1: since nineteen ninety three, is all right? Oh, you've known

214
00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:24,520
Speaker 1: of each other.

215
00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:27,559
Speaker 3: He started writing letters to me from prison.

216
00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:28,360
Speaker 4: In ninety three.

217
00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:30,720
Speaker 1: In ninety three, right in ninety three, what were you doing.

218
00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:35,199
Speaker 3: I was a professor at Williams College studying the psychology

219
00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:38,480
Speaker 3: of false confessions. I had just become interested in false confessions,

220
00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:40,960
Speaker 3: and I was doing some research and publishing that research.

221
00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:42,200
Speaker 4: How'd you get interested in it?

222
00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:45,680
Speaker 3: Actually? I got interested because I came out of graduate

223
00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:48,840
Speaker 3: school in social psychology interested in how juries make decisions.

224
00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:52,440
Speaker 3: And after collecting some initial data for the first several

225
00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:54,880
Speaker 3: months of a post STOC I was at the University

226
00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:57,840
Speaker 3: of Kansas, it became clear to me that every time

227
00:11:57,880 --> 00:11:59,960
Speaker 3: I had a case in which there was a confess

228
00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:04,400
Speaker 3: and evidence, all variability of juror's responses dropped out. Everybody

229
00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:08,120
Speaker 3: voted guilty. Confession evidence was perfect in the minds of

230
00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:09,000
Speaker 3: the average juror.

231
00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,600
Speaker 1: Is it the most powerful evidentiary tool that there is?

232
00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:16,160
Speaker 4: Yes? And there is Trump's DNA or yes.

233
00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:19,440
Speaker 1: I mean, we've seen cases and you've obviously seen so

234
00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,600
Speaker 1: many of them in which a jury is presented at

235
00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:26,280
Speaker 1: the same time with a false confession and DNA that

236
00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:30,480
Speaker 1: proves scientifically yes, without any doubt, that it could not

237
00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:32,880
Speaker 1: have been the person who gave the confession. And they

238
00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:34,000
Speaker 1: will choose which one.

239
00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:36,120
Speaker 3: They will choose. They will they will vote guilty on

240
00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:38,960
Speaker 3: the basis of that confession, and they will explain away

241
00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:42,000
Speaker 3: they will find ways to explain away the DNA, right, So.

242
00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:43,800
Speaker 1: You're presented with a thing that shows I mean because

243
00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:47,080
Speaker 1: in a violent crime, if there's physical contact, then there's blood.

244
00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:49,440
Speaker 1: And if it's a rape, if there's an assault, if

245
00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,160
Speaker 1: there's a stabbing, there's DNA, right. And if your DNA

246
00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:55,200
Speaker 1: is not there, you weren't there. Right. Nobody's ever been

247
00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:57,080
Speaker 1: able to figure out how to and not be there

248
00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:57,360
Speaker 1: the same.

249
00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:00,640
Speaker 3: There are cases on record where not only the DNA

250
00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:03,680
Speaker 3: exclude the confessor at the point of trial, but it

251
00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:08,200
Speaker 3: identified the perpetrator and still the confessor was convicted.

252
00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:10,360
Speaker 1: Right, So people can and I know this too from

253
00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:14,200
Speaker 1: my own experience, it's very very difficult for people to

254
00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:18,360
Speaker 1: wrap them and mine is anecdotal, but it's very hard

255
00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:20,600
Speaker 1: for people to wrap around the idea of anybody would confess.

256
00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:24,320
Speaker 1: We know that with juveniles it's much more common because

257
00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:26,920
Speaker 1: they're more impressionable. In many cases, they can be actually

258
00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:31,120
Speaker 1: coaxed into or or coerced into believing that they actually

259
00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:31,400
Speaker 1: did it.

260
00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:35,240
Speaker 4: Is that right? Yes, which is really another level of Yeah.

261
00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:38,280
Speaker 3: Go into any audience of late people and ask the question,

262
00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:40,600
Speaker 3: which ever confess to a serious crime you didn't commit,

263
00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,920
Speaker 3: not a single hand will go up. Short of sometimes

264
00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:45,640
Speaker 3: you get an occasional hand it will go up and

265
00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:47,480
Speaker 3: someone will say, well, if you had a gun to

266
00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:51,560
Speaker 3: my head, right, But short of that, no normal person

267
00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,079
Speaker 3: of sound mind would confess to a crime they didn't commit.

268
00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,560
Speaker 3: And people use that personal belief about themselves as the

269
00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:01,600
Speaker 3: frame of reference. And so it's very, very unlikely that

270
00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,079
Speaker 3: you can get people easily to believe that an innocent

271
00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,480
Speaker 3: person was induced to confess to something they didn't do,

272
00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:11,800
Speaker 3: and not just something the highest stakes crime in the system, murder.

273
00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:15,199
Speaker 1: Right, So let's talk about this as it relates specifically

274
00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,680
Speaker 1: to what happened with Marty in the interrogation room. So

275
00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,600
Speaker 1: here's Marty in a state of as we talked about,

276
00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:26,400
Speaker 1: in a state of panic and shock and grief and

277
00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:31,400
Speaker 1: you know, just spinning right, And as we discussed, he's

278
00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:34,640
Speaker 1: still a child, and the fact is a teenager, a

279
00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:39,800
Speaker 1: young teenager. And so what happened, I mean, how did

280
00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:42,680
Speaker 1: you know? Because his confession it's different than any of

281
00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,280
Speaker 1: the other ones I've studied, right, because it may or

282
00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,640
Speaker 1: may not have ever even actually happened. Right, Usually they

283
00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:51,560
Speaker 1: actually get somebody to say something on video, or they'll

284
00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:55,280
Speaker 1: get a written statement or something. But in Marty's case,

285
00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:58,040
Speaker 1: it's much more. It's much more highly nuanced, isn't it.

286
00:14:58,160 --> 00:14:58,440
Speaker 4: Yes?

287
00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:02,200
Speaker 3: Yes, And in Marty's something that almost all of these

288
00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:04,200
Speaker 3: cases have in common. You've got to ask yourself the

289
00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:08,160
Speaker 3: first question, why did Marty, a seventeen year old without

290
00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:11,240
Speaker 3: a criminal record, without a history of violence, with good

291
00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,800
Speaker 3: parents and good relationships and an affluent community, why would

292
00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,040
Speaker 3: Marty kill his parents in a brutal way, in a

293
00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,280
Speaker 3: brutal in the most brutal of ways. And you have

294
00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:22,280
Speaker 3: to ask yourself the question, how in God's name did

295
00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:23,280
Speaker 3: he become their suspect.

296
00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:25,360
Speaker 1: Well, we haven't talked about that, but Marty, your parents

297
00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:27,080
Speaker 1: were beaten to death, is that right?

298
00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:32,840
Speaker 2: There was a bludgeon instrument and a knife, and to

299
00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:35,920
Speaker 2: this day neither one has been discovered. And there was

300
00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:38,440
Speaker 2: some forensic evidence which I can talk about. There was

301
00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:42,080
Speaker 2: glove prints, so whoever did do this were wearing gloves

302
00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,160
Speaker 2: that they still haven't found the gloves. So I mean,

303
00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,240
Speaker 2: there's all these little things that actually the jury was

304
00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:51,480
Speaker 2: aware of, but as you said, they chose just to ignore.

305
00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,320
Speaker 1: So yeah, so we should believe that you killed your

306
00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,120
Speaker 1: parents in the most vicious way at night and then

307
00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:59,080
Speaker 1: went to sleep, and then waited till the morning and

308
00:15:59,080 --> 00:15:59,800
Speaker 1: then called nine one.

309
00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:01,800
Speaker 2: And you know, most people said, well, you know, he

310
00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,240
Speaker 2: did it for the money, because they thought my parents

311
00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:06,480
Speaker 2: were affluent. The way the wills were structured, I would

312
00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:10,800
Speaker 2: have gotten everything. And we later learned that law enforcement

313
00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,320
Speaker 2: never really understood the way the wills and never looked

314
00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:15,440
Speaker 2: into the way the wills were structured. But the way

315
00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:17,760
Speaker 2: the wills were structured was that I wasn't going to

316
00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:21,600
Speaker 2: benefit financially until I was twenty five and I was seventeen.

317
00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:23,160
Speaker 2: So you know, as one of my aunts said, what

318
00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,040
Speaker 2: was he supposed to do from seventeen to twenty five?

319
00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:26,160
Speaker 2: Live on the streets.

320
00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:28,840
Speaker 1: So Marty's in the interrogation room, we know that they

321
00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:32,520
Speaker 1: have misled, as a probably nice way to put it,

322
00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,040
Speaker 1: his his family guardian at this point, right, your godfather,

323
00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:38,600
Speaker 1: who was also the only lawyer that was available to

324
00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:39,240
Speaker 1: you at this time.

325
00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:41,640
Speaker 2: They kind of mislet everybody though. I mean I had

326
00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:43,640
Speaker 2: other cousins and aunts and uncles who were at the

327
00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:45,560
Speaker 2: hospitals and they were live too, too. They were told

328
00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:47,480
Speaker 2: Marty's on the way to the hospital, Marty's on the

329
00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:48,600
Speaker 2: way to the hospital, right.

330
00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,240
Speaker 1: So they're basically doing everything they can to prevent you

331
00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:56,640
Speaker 1: from having any responsible guardian or legal representative from being

332
00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:00,440
Speaker 1: there to be able to help you in the in

333
00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:02,160
Speaker 1: the situation, to be able to that might be able

334
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:04,400
Speaker 1: to stand in the way of them getting the conviction

335
00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:06,399
Speaker 1: that they wanted. Regardless of truth.

336
00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:07,879
Speaker 4: Yes, they weren't after the truth.

337
00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:10,679
Speaker 2: There was no truth seeking here. I mean, you have

338
00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:14,440
Speaker 2: a man who was business partners with my father, half

339
00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:18,560
Speaker 2: a million dollars involved, was there the night before. My

340
00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:21,679
Speaker 2: father also had in the weeks prior, had demanded he

341
00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:25,000
Speaker 2: had two notes fifty thousand dollars. Back in the days

342
00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:29,440
Speaker 2: after the murders, Jerry Struman cleaned out a joint bank account.

343
00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:34,640
Speaker 2: He faked his death. He fled to California. He had

344
00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,359
Speaker 2: a hair weave back then, and he went to a

345
00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:40,880
Speaker 2: club that he wasn't a member for. He had five

346
00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:45,800
Speaker 2: or six different aliases at that moment. But law enforcement

347
00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,200
Speaker 2: never consider him suspect. And every time I tell people,

348
00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:50,760
Speaker 2: you know, the average person would say, well, how is

349
00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:51,959
Speaker 2: he not a suspect?

350
00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:53,600
Speaker 1: I mean, you could have stopped that he faked his

351
00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:56,000
Speaker 1: own death right there. If this was a TV show.

352
00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:59,200
Speaker 1: People are changing the channel. They're like, Okay, this is done.

353
00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:01,080
Speaker 1: I don't need to watch the is this is our guy.

354
00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:08,959
Speaker 1: We got him, so Saul. There he is in the

355
00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:10,440
Speaker 1: interrogation room.

356
00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:15,480
Speaker 3: Alone, alone, seventeen, not street wise, never been in trouble before,

357
00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:17,280
Speaker 3: never had to worry about how do you behave when

358
00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:18,440
Speaker 3: you get picked up by police?

359
00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,680
Speaker 1: And couldn't he have just said no, no, no, no

360
00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,159
Speaker 1: no not me? How could I what happened in his brain?

361
00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:26,359
Speaker 3: And what oh, I can tell you very simply what

362
00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,080
Speaker 3: happened in his brain. He had done nothing wrong. And

363
00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:32,679
Speaker 3: the funny thing about innocent, innocent people is even if

364
00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:34,800
Speaker 3: he even if they had read him as Miranda rights,

365
00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:35,840
Speaker 3: he would have waived.

366
00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:37,000
Speaker 4: Those rights right most people do.

367
00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:38,160
Speaker 3: He would have waived those rights.

368
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:39,920
Speaker 4: And he did nothing wrong. He did nothing wrong, So

369
00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:41,560
Speaker 4: why would he worry about whether he had nothing?

370
00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:43,760
Speaker 3: He had nothing to hide, He had nothing wrong, and

371
00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:46,880
Speaker 3: so Miranda becomes not a safeguard that's particularly effective at

372
00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,920
Speaker 3: this point. He is now, and keep in mind, they've

373
00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,720
Speaker 3: got him in police headquarters. The whole family is with

374
00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:56,320
Speaker 3: his father, who is dying but still alive in the hospital.

375
00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,560
Speaker 3: That's where Marty wants to be if you're looking for,

376
00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:02,440
Speaker 3: what is to incentivize him to cooperate so that he

377
00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:04,200
Speaker 3: can get out of there and get to the hospital.

378
00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,240
Speaker 3: That's his incentive. He wants to be at the hospital.

379
00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,760
Speaker 3: So he's already in a state where he's motivated to cooperate.

380
00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:13,920
Speaker 3: And they start asking him questions about what he saw,

381
00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:16,240
Speaker 3: how he saw it, what had happened, and he gives

382
00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,479
Speaker 3: them answers, and the answers are consistent. They don't believe him,

383
00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:21,200
Speaker 3: they tell him they don't believe him. They asked for

384
00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:22,399
Speaker 3: the story to be told again.

385
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:24,360
Speaker 1: Right, he was in sleep, he woke up, he went

386
00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:26,240
Speaker 1: down the hall, he found him, He called nine one one,

387
00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,040
Speaker 1: he held the towel, he followed instructions. Actually, not only

388
00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:31,800
Speaker 1: did any do anything wrong, he did anything right exactly.

389
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:35,280
Speaker 3: And they're searching for inconsistencies and they're calling him a liar,

390
00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,040
Speaker 3: and they're not believing the story that he keeps telling

391
00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:40,640
Speaker 3: over and over again, and then they switch gears at

392
00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:44,080
Speaker 3: some point. Now keep in mind, I'm presenting this as

393
00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:47,840
Speaker 3: if it's a chronology, but I have no idea, nobody

394
00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:51,280
Speaker 3: has any idea what really happened because they didn't record

395
00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:51,880
Speaker 3: the process.

396
00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:53,840
Speaker 1: That's something that we at the NIS's Project have been

397
00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:58,640
Speaker 1: advocating for it for years. Every interrogation should be recorded.

398
00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,600
Speaker 1: There's no reason why shouldn't be, and every reason why

399
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,120
Speaker 1: it should be if in fact what we're looking for

400
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:05,280
Speaker 1: is the truth exactly.

401
00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:08,359
Speaker 3: And this raises a very important and too often invisible

402
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:12,000
Speaker 3: point about the Innocence Project and the innocence community and

403
00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:16,120
Speaker 3: the concern about innocence and wrongful convictions. If your concern

404
00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:20,520
Speaker 3: is law and order, this should concern you because from

405
00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:22,960
Speaker 3: a law and order standpoint, every time you get a

406
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,200
Speaker 3: confession from an innocent person and that person's then prosecuted

407
00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,359
Speaker 3: and convicted, there is a criminal creating new victims out there,

408
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:31,520
Speaker 3: and that is on them.

409
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,520
Speaker 1: And we do know from our exonerations and the studies

410
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:39,000
Speaker 1: that we've done that in a very large percentage of

411
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,240
Speaker 1: the cases in which we've exonerated the innocent person and

412
00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:45,320
Speaker 1: identified the actual perpetrator, that perpetrator has gone on to

413
00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:49,639
Speaker 1: commit other heinous crimes that had law enforcement acted properly

414
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,399
Speaker 1: and done their job, that person would have been in

415
00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:56,080
Speaker 1: prison appropriately and those other victims never would have had

416
00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:56,480
Speaker 1: to suffer.

417
00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:01,359
Speaker 3: And often it turns out often that's suspect that suspect

418
00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:05,240
Speaker 3: turned criminal was in the crosshairs of police at the time.

419
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,080
Speaker 3: But once you take a confession, and this is what

420
00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:10,760
Speaker 3: some of the research shows, once police take a confession,

421
00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:14,160
Speaker 3: they engage a process of tunnel vision. They shut down

422
00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:17,239
Speaker 3: the case. What the innocent person doesn't realize, because one

423
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,440
Speaker 3: of the odd things about innocent people confessing is sometimes

424
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,280
Speaker 3: they get so stressed out and so worn down. They

425
00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:25,000
Speaker 3: get to a point where they think, Okay, what do

426
00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:26,760
Speaker 3: I got to do to get out of here? And

427
00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:28,959
Speaker 3: in the back of their mind they're thinking, you know what,

428
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,639
Speaker 3: I didn't do anything wrong. When they get to do

429
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,600
Speaker 3: the investigation, when they get other evidence, they'll see I

430
00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,400
Speaker 3: didn't do this. So where do I sign to get

431
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:41,800
Speaker 3: myself out of a bad situation? With the promise impossible?

432
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,119
Speaker 3: And they have in their head the promise of a

433
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,119
Speaker 3: future exoneration because after all, they did nothing wrong. What

434
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,000
Speaker 3: the innocent person in that situation, thinking that way doesn't

435
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,720
Speaker 3: realize is their confession doesn't open the case. It closes

436
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:54,120
Speaker 3: the case.

437
00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:59,840
Speaker 1: And Marty's case here he is Marty didn't actually really confess.

438
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:05,000
Speaker 3: Well, again, we don't fully know what happened. Here's the story.

439
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,880
Speaker 3: As I understand it from the evidence that's available. They

440
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:11,000
Speaker 3: break them down. They bring him in. He wants to

441
00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:13,480
Speaker 3: be at the hospital, and he's clear that the only

442
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,200
Speaker 3: exit for that to happen is for him to cooperate.

443
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:21,560
Speaker 3: But it still doesn't work, and they're challenging every denial.

444
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,320
Speaker 3: But then they shift gears, and they shift gears toward

445
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,960
Speaker 3: a procedure now where they start to lie about the evidence. Now,

446
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:32,240
Speaker 3: the average American doesn't know this. The average American doesn't

447
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,920
Speaker 3: realize that in the United States, police are allowed to

448
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 3: bring in a suspect and lie about the evidence. They're

449
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,199
Speaker 3: allowed to say to the suspect, we have your fingerprints

450
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,720
Speaker 3: on the murder weapon, even if that's not true. What

451
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,600
Speaker 3: happened in Marty's case is they bring him in, they say, well,

452
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:50,760
Speaker 3: you know, it appears that your mother was in a

453
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:53,520
Speaker 3: struggle and there's hair in her grasp and it turns

454
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:55,880
Speaker 3: out it's your hair. We did the analysis. It's your hair,

455
00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 3: and that confused Marty wasn't true, but he got confused

456
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:02,680
Speaker 3: to to how that was possible. And then because it

457
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:05,439
Speaker 3: was such a bloody scene, it was two bloody scenes,

458
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,680
Speaker 3: there just wasn't enough blood on Marty to account for that.

459
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,679
Speaker 3: They suggested to him that he had showered before calling

460
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:14,440
Speaker 3: nine to one one. He said, no, I didn't use

461
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:16,720
Speaker 3: the shower. They came back and said, well, we did

462
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,679
Speaker 3: a humidity test in your bathroom and we found that

463
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,760
Speaker 3: the shower had been used that morning. A humidity test.

464
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:24,720
Speaker 3: I don't believe, even on CSI, they've given us a

465
00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:28,200
Speaker 3: humidity test. And he's in something of a twilight zone.

466
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 3: And so now now they've delivered two lies. And then

467
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,920
Speaker 3: the detective delivers the ultimate lie. He leaves the room.

468
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,600
Speaker 3: There are two detectives in there. The lead detective McCready

469
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 3: leaves the room, stages a phone call, and comes back

470
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,640
Speaker 3: and comes back to deliver the news to Marty. Marty,

471
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 3: I've got good news and I got bad news. I

472
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,240
Speaker 3: just spoke to the folks at the hospital. The good

473
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 3: news is your father has come out of his coma.

474
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:55,879
Speaker 3: He's regained consciousness. The bad news is, he said, you

475
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 3: did it. Now think about this for him.

476
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:00,640
Speaker 1: Fucking sick.

477
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 4: It's sane.

478
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 3: You've got a seventeen year old and you're now delivering

479
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 3: one lie after another, culminating in a lie that to Marty,

480
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 3: the person he trusts most in his life has just

481
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 3: said he committed this crime. And not only did, Marty

482
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 3: of course, had no choice but to believe that evidence,

483
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,719
Speaker 3: because he doesn't believe police would lie to him. Certainly,

484
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 3: not like that. Even McCready's partner said he believed it.

485
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 3: That is, McCready's partner believed that presentation. So what choice

486
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 3: does Marty have now but to wonder, how is it

487
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 3: possible that they have this kind of objective evidence. My

488
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 3: father doesn't lie, he said, and that lie just broke

489
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 3: Marty down.

490
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,640
Speaker 1: So Marty said, my father doesn't lie, which they then

491
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,399
Speaker 1: took to me. So maybe this is true, maybe I

492
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 1: actually did this.

493
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,920
Speaker 3: Right, Well, Marty has almost no cognitive choice but to

494
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 3: accept that information.

495
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 1: Well, because he's got two things right. His father doesn't

496
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 1: lie and the cops don't lie. These are the two

497
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:01,399
Speaker 1: things that.

498
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 4: He believes exactly. So those things lead to one conclusion.

499
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,440
Speaker 3: One conclusion, I must have done it. And so where

500
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,919
Speaker 3: does the conversation turn. It turns in the direction of, well,

501
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,200
Speaker 3: how can you explain the fact that I don't think

502
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 3: I did it, I don't remember having done it, and

503
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,879
Speaker 3: yet there's all this unimpeachable objective evidence of my guilt.

504
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 3: How is that possible, And the conversation turns to memory, consciousness,

505
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 3: the possibility of sleepwalking and doing it without awareness the

506
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 3: next morning, waking up and having not realized what had happened. Now,

507
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:36,120
Speaker 3: there are different categories, different types of false confessions. One

508
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 3: of those types is It's not the most common type

509
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 3: by any means, but it happens. The first time I

510
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,120
Speaker 3: laid eyes on one, it shocked me. I've now seen

511
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 3: several of them, and the script is always the same.

512
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 3: This is the internalized false confession, where not only do

513
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 3: the police use stress tactics to break a suspect down

514
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 3: to give a compliant confession and to agree to sign

515
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 3: the statement, but they actually get the suspect to believe

516
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,680
Speaker 3: he committed this crime. They actually confuse the suspect enough

517
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 3: so that they don't even trust their own memory anymore.

518
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 3: Because you've handed them this objective evidence, they somehow need

519
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:16,159
Speaker 3: to reconcile that evidence with what they can't remember. And

520
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 3: what happened in Marty's case is like you see happens

521
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 3: in a number of these cases. They start to talk

522
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,399
Speaker 3: about memory and consciousness and generate theories from Marty to

523
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 3: explain how come you don't remember doing this, So we

524
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 3: know that that was the nature of the conversation. We

525
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:35,440
Speaker 3: know that for some degree of transient time, Marty became

526
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:37,640
Speaker 3: confused about even his own innocence.

527
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 1: Right, And this goes back to what we were talking

528
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 1: about before, which is that it all is the perfect storm,

529
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 1: because had Marty had a guardian or a lawyer in

530
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 1: the room, they would have certainly said to Marty, they

531
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:52,880
Speaker 1: can lie, they're lying, they can be lying to you. Yes,

532
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 1: we can be making this up right, But there's no

533
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: grown up there. There's nobody there to protect you in

534
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 1: the situation in life in which you most need protection.

535
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,399
Speaker 3: Now, we should stop to realize something about this tactic.

536
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 3: As pernicious as it sounds, people should know that it's

537
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 3: lawful that. In nineteen sixty nine, the US Supreme Court

538
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 3: addressed that in a case they address the issue of

539
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,440
Speaker 3: are a police allowed to deceive a suspect about the evidence,

540
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 3: and they concluded that, yes, that that tactic does not

541
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 3: put an innocent person at risk. Well, I'm sorry, the

542
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,639
Speaker 3: courts need to revisit that issue lying about evidence. And

543
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 3: there is now ample research, actual cases, laboratory studies, field

544
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 3: studies we now know and one hundred plus years of

545
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 3: basic psychology tells us when you lie to people about evidence,

546
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 3: when you lie to people about reality, you can change

547
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 3: their perceptions, You can change their memories, you can change

548
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 3: just about every aspect of their cognitive function. What happened

549
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,920
Speaker 3: to Marty is psychologically very understandable.

550
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,920
Speaker 1: It is when you take all these things into.

551
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 3: It is his confession was a handwritten statement, handwritten by

552
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 3: the detective that I can tell you summarize everything I

553
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 3: know about the case file. Is inaccurate as a description

554
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,640
Speaker 3: of the crime. It doesn't complete itself. It's actually ends

555
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 3: in midsense, and it is unsigned. Now people do a

556
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 3: double take when they hear, what do you mean? It

557
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 3: was unsigned? This confession, the so called confession, was written

558
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 3: by the detective and not signed by Marty. And yet

559
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:26,160
Speaker 3: that allegation of that confession is the one and only

560
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 3: piece of evidence that that was used to convict him.

561
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 3: People need to become better consumers of confession evidence. They

562
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 3: need to understand also that because there's a misconception. The

563
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 3: misconception is this, I'd know a false confession if I

564
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 3: saw one.

565
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 4: No, you wouldn't.

566
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 3: We've done those studies. We've done that research we've taken

567
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 3: true confessions false confessions. People can't tell the difference. Cops

568
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 3: can't tell the difference.

569
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 4: Let's go back for one moment the trial.

570
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 2: You want to go back to the trial.

571
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 1: I want to go back to the trial because I

572
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 1: remember seeing that picture of your face at the moment

573
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 1: of conviction, and.

574
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 4: You know the amount of pain.

575
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: That's in that picture is you feel like you're in

576
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: the shoes of that person.

577
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 4: You're at trial.

578
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 1: You still believe that justice is.

579
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 2: Going to be on at trial, still believe it. I mean,

580
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 2: this is what the lawyers are telling me. The system works.

581
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 2: I was innocent. I testified on my own behalf. And

582
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 2: you know, this was a long trial. It was probably

583
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 2: about ten to twelve weeks long. What's interesting about my

584
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 2: case is that, you know, it was my parchra were murdered,

585
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 2: and my entire family supported me. And that's what made

586
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 2: this case very difficult, because many prosecutors said it was

587
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 2: the most difficult case they had to prosecute because the

588
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 2: victim's family and the defendants family were the same family.

589
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 2: And I can't tell you how often my family would say,

590
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 2: don't you see there's something wrong here? You know, with

591
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 2: the victims family and with the defendant's family, and we

592
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 2: know mornings and it's it, and we believe in morning,

593
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 2: you know, But you're just you just don't care, and

594
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 2: law enforcement didn't care back then. They just were focused

595
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 2: on me.

596
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 1: And that was it. So you're a trial, all the

597
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 1: testimonies been heard, ten or twelve week trials, a long trial.

598
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 1: Everyone's fatigued by this point, nobody more than you.

599
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 2: The deliberations wasn't a one day, two day, three days.

600
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 2: This was eight days torture. Prosecus had charged me with

601
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 2: intentional murder and depraved indifference murder. So when we got

602
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 2: called back in, the first verdict that was read was

603
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 2: not guilty, and then all of a sudden, the second

604
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 2: one was guilty. The one thing I vividly remember is

605
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 2: the walk after they read the guilty verdicts over to

606
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 2: the county jails. They had these tunnel systems, and I

607
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 2: remember just I felt like I was being led like

608
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 2: a dog because I was just listening. And I remember

609
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 2: getting to the property room and I remember the property

610
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 2: remolts saying what are you doing here, Marty? And I go,

611
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 2: why else would I be here? And then everything else

612
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 2: went blank for about the next six or seven days.

613
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 2: But I remember that moment and it was just this

614
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 2: level of shock between the both of us that he's

615
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 2: looking at me, going you couldn't have been found guilty,

616
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 2: and I kind of said, well, why else would I

617
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 2: be standing here in front of you at the property room.

618
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 3: The most common story about innocent people when they hear

619
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 3: their guilty verdict red is they're shocked. Even if they're

620
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:32,959
Speaker 3: the only person in the courtroom whos shocked, they're shocked

621
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 3: they expected to be acquitted.

622
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 4: Marty, I want to talk about this for a minute.

623
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 2: Now.

624
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 1: You're thrown into this environment. You're in maximum security prison.

625
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 4: Is that right? Yeah?

626
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 2: I went from Downstair Correctional Facility, which is a receptional facility,

627
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 2: to Orburn Correction Facility, which is another maximum security facility.

628
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 2: And people think when you went from it was in

629
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 2: four prisons. Primarily everyone was in maximum security facility. Everyone

630
00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 2: is hell and everyone everyone at this you basically every

631
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 2: day it's a fight for your life because you never

632
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 2: know in maximum security facilities what could happen, whether it

633
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 2: be the gangs going to war with each other, the

634
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 2: ulcers taking you know, they're aggression out on you. Or

635
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 2: just the random attacks that occur just for no reason whatsoever.

636
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 1: Right, I mean, we know that people are being killed

637
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 1: every day in prisons in America, sometimes by guards.

638
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 2: Even absolutely for me, as strange as it sounds, is

639
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 2: when I went through Downstair, which was a reception facility.

640
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 2: My case was very high profile, so prisoners knew about

641
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 2: the case. Guards knew about the case. And I had

642
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 2: a guy come up to me and he said, Lilizen,

643
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 2: he goes, if you want to survive, he says, don't

644
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 2: do drugs, don't get involved in drugs, don't get involved homosexuality,

645
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 2: don't get involved in gambling, gangs, he said. And work

646
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 2: your way into the college program or the law library.

647
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 2: He said. You're innocent, he said, And one of the

648
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 2: hardest things is once you're innocent, is getting out, he said.

649
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 2: But you'll figure out a way to do it. But

650
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 2: work yourself into the law library. The prisoners were really

651
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 2: the best judges of character because the guys who are

652
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 2: career criminals, they knew who were innocent who weren't, And

653
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 2: very early on, even the guards. I mean, to this day,

654
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 2: I am still in touch with some prison guards who

655
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 2: saw that I was innocent. And you know, I found

656
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 2: out years later at Auburn Correctist there was one guard

657
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 2: who actually used quote unquote look out for me make

658
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 2: sure I was okay, because he knew I was innocent.

659
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 1: So now we're six three hundred and something days into

660
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: this horrible Kafka esque trip through the maximum security prison

661
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 1: system of New York State, and you are now at

662
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: a point where you know you have a new hearing

663
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 1: coming up.

664
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 2: Right. My lawyers said, okay, what's never been done here before?

665
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 2: And we said a full investigation. And that's when I

666
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 2: started looking for private investigators and ended up hiring jsal Peter.

667
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 2: And one of the things that Jay said to me was,

668
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 2: if you're innocent, hire me. If you're guilty, don't. I said,

669
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 2: I'm in it. I'll hire you. I just find the truth, Jai.

670
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 2: And it took years. It took years for him to

671
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,840
Speaker 2: track down people. But what he did was, whenever nobody

672
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 2: else did, who benefited financially from my conviction, Steuwerman. So

673
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 2: he started with the Steermans and just started branching out

674
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 2: and they ended up finding the individually name of Glenna Harris,

675
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 2: who is the getaway driver for people we've identified as

676
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 2: the murderers.

677
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 4: You were sentenced to fifty years to life.

678
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 1: Fifty years to life.

679
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,320
Speaker 2: My first opportunity to appear to parle Board was twenty

680
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:37,360
Speaker 2: forty twenty forty, so we're in twenty sixteen, so twenty

681
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,240
Speaker 2: forty would have been my first chance for release.

682
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you

683
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:52,320
Speaker 1: get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud

684
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 1: donor to the Ennosnce Project, and I really hope you'll

685
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping

686
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 1: to prevent future wrong Go to inosonsproject dot org to

687
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 1: learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like to

688
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,800
Speaker 1: thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The

689
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 1: music in the show is by three time OSCAR nominated

690
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 1: composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram

691
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.

692
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,320
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava

693
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one