1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:24,480 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. Hello, 4 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 1: and welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, 5 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: my name is no. They call me Ben. We are 6 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: joined with our super producer, Casey Pegram today. Most importantly, 7 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: you are you. You are here, and that makes this 8 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:38,519 Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know. We'd like to 9 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:42,959 Speaker 1: start today's episode with a quote. Men, maybe without restraints 10 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: upon their liberty, they must pass to and fro at pleasure. 11 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 1: But if their steps are tracked by spies and informers, 12 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: their words noted down for crimination, their associates watched as conspirators, 13 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: who shall say that they are free? And that's a 14 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 1: quote from Thomas Erskine May from the work Constitutional History 15 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: of England. And you may be wondering, friends and neighbors, 16 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 1: why we're opening today's episode with this quotation. Today, you see, 17 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: we're delving into a story of deception, of subterfuge, the 18 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: struggle for equality, the ethical dilemmas of espionage, and the 19 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: life of one earnest Columbus Withers, Senior, Withers was born 20 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 1: on August seven, nineteen. He spent sixty years of his 21 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: life working as a photojournalist documenting the African American experience 22 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: in the American South, with the most well known work 23 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: occurring during the Civil Rights Movement. Over the course of 24 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: his career, he took some of the most iconic photographs 25 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:43,679 Speaker 1: in American history. These are completely fantastic, Like time and place, 26 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: they take you right to it. No one else took 27 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: photographs quite like this. Um He traveled with Dr Martin 28 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: Luther king Uh and other civil rights leaders. He was 29 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: a trusted friend and associate, a member of the Inner Circle. 30 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: He even sat it on strategy meetings and after his 31 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: death in two thousand seven, and his legacy lived on 32 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: as newspapers across the country and The Globe published his work. Today, 33 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: he is remembered as an all set as an iconic photographer, 34 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: a loving family man, a hometown hero in Memphis, Tennessee, 35 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 1: and in a very real way, the the eye of 36 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: the Civil rights movement. It turns out he was also 37 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: working in secret for another organization. This is a story 38 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 1: that remained buried and may well have been lost to history, 39 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: where not for the efforts of a veteran Memphis journalist 40 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:36,279 Speaker 1: working at the commercial Appeal. Through laborious research, Mark Peiskia 41 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: bought this story from the murky world of domestic intelligence 42 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: into the light of the public sphere. And here's the thing, folks, 43 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: We always, as you know, want to go directly to 44 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: the source whenever possible, and by golly, by gum by gosh, 45 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 1: today we succeeded. We'd like to welcome Mark Periskia to 46 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: the show. Thank you for coming, sir, Thank you for 47 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 1: having me. We're excited to talk to you about this, 48 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: not only for the work alone, but the work that 49 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 1: you do in general. You're an investigative journalist, sir. Yeah, 50 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: there's a few of us still left. I can't. I 51 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: mean that that was the path that I personally wanted 52 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: to take, but as I was getting through college kind 53 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,959 Speaker 1: of made the realization that it probably won't happen for me. Well, 54 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 1: you probably made a good, wise career choice there, because 55 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: he seems like you got a good thing going on here. Yeah. 56 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 1: Honestly though, just personally very excited to have you on 57 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 1: the show. And as we all are here here and you, sir, 58 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: have a quite amazing thing going in your new book, 59 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: A Spy and Cane and how the FBI used a 60 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: famous photographer to infiltrate the civil rights movement, A deep 61 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: dive into the story we briefly just set up. Well, 62 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: it all started back in n when I was covering 63 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 1: James wel Ray's hearings. At that time, James wol Ray 64 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 1: was the assassin of Martin Luther King, Jr. He was 65 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: in the last year of his life. He had liver 66 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: disease and was trying to get out of prison, and 67 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 1: he was floating all kinds of pleadings in the criminal 68 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: court in Shelby County, Tennessee, um conspiracy stories. His lawyer 69 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: was coming up with these things, and they actually got 70 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: the King family here in Atlanta to endorse many of 71 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: these stories, and Dexter King, Martin's younger son actually came 72 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 1: up and visited Ray in prison, shook his hand and said, 73 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: you know, we believe you will do everything in our 74 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: power to get you out. I mean, it was just 75 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 1: a very surreal moment. And the news traction around this 76 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: story was just huge, became an international story. So I 77 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 1: got a lot of latitude from the paper. UM. But 78 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: at that time i'd been there about eight years, um, 79 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: to really explore some of these conspiracy stories, and um, 80 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:43,720 Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that I found is 81 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 1: that mean a lot of people think that, you know, 82 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 1: the FBI others had a hand in killing Dr. King, 83 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 1: but that really wasn't the case. I mean, they were 84 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: definitely trying to destroy him politically, but Ray shot him. 85 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: And um. But it was in exploring these stories that 86 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: I started interviewing former police office there was in Memphis, 87 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:04,720 Speaker 1: former FBI men, military intelligence. And I ran into this 88 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 1: agent in Memphis, former retired agent, who told me, you know, 89 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 1: give me the background about what was going on when 90 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:14,679 Speaker 1: Dr King was in Memphis at that time. And uh, 91 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 1: you know, he said I had asked him if they 92 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: ever did electronic surveillance on King there and he said, no, 93 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 1: we had no need to do that, and he said, 94 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:24,600 Speaker 1: we had a great informant coverage. And it was in 95 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: this context that he mentioned that Ernest Withers had been 96 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 1: an informant for the FBI, which, you know, when he 97 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:31,919 Speaker 1: told me, that kind of blew me away in the beginning, 98 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: because you know, Wow, Withers, you know, he's so closely 99 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: identified with the movement. You know, as you said kind 100 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 1: of the eye of the movement, and it was pretty startling. Um, 101 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 1: the agent never wanted to go on the record, he said, 102 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: he denied if I, if I, if I ever wrote that. 103 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:49,919 Speaker 1: So I just kind of let it alone. You know, 104 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: there's in the news business, there's a lot of things 105 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 1: that wind up on the cutting room floor. I moved 106 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: on when it back into covering a lot of political corruption, 107 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: which which was rife in Memphis at that It was 108 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: only years later after Ernest died that I filed a 109 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,480 Speaker 1: Freedom of Information Act request and in the process of 110 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 1: getting records back, I found that the FBI had left 111 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: his code number M E three R, which is a 112 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 1: unique identifier in the FBI jargon. They call it a 113 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: source symbol number. But it's said in a report, a 114 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: background report on him from nineteen seventy seven that he 115 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: had been formally designated as M E R. And so 116 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:34,239 Speaker 1: I was like, it was a kind of a Eureka moment, 117 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: you know, like, you know, wow, this is true what 118 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 1: this guy was telling me before. And so but trying 119 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 1: to figure out how what do I do with that, 120 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:43,039 Speaker 1: you know, because it really didn't tell you much of anything. 121 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: I got more records from the FBI that had been 122 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 1: released from the from in the ninth late nineteen seventies, 123 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 1: covering that sixties period in Memphis. And I found that 124 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,799 Speaker 1: they made the same mistake over and over again. Um again, 125 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:58,920 Speaker 1: you know that with that source symbol number of being 126 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 1: a unique identified fire, you could say substitute in Earnest 127 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: Wither's name and say that he did X, Y and 128 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 1: Z for the FBI. So I did some initial stories, 129 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 1: and then I met the daughter of the agent who 130 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: had ran with hers William H. Lawrence, and she and 131 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: he was he was dead by then, but she had 132 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: saved a number of his records that she found after 133 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: actually her mother passed away after her father, and there 134 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 1: were handwritten notes that he had that referred to Earnest 135 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: by name and by code number. So I did more stories, 136 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: and then the newspaper, this was a newspaper investigation. UM, 137 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 1: we tried to get his FBI file and they just 138 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: totally denied everything and said, you know, I wouldn't cooperate. 139 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: We sued him in court. They you know, they fought 140 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: us for quite a while. In the end we wand 141 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: up winning getting a mediated settlement and um, they had 142 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: to pay all our legal fees. We'd spent like two 143 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars pursuing this. Yeah, they relied on a 144 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: law that allows them to lie, and they did. They 145 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: lied about it. They you know, uh, the law exam 146 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: informant records from the Freedom of Information Act and they 147 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: can pretend like certain records don't even exist. But that 148 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 1: would be exclusion to see as that right, Yeah, from Uh. 149 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: It was passed as part of the Anti Drug Abuse 150 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 1: Act in under the Reagan administration. The whole idea was 151 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: that was to try to try to keep you know, 152 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: these corrupt drug cartels from trying to root out informants 153 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 1: in their ranks, you know, trying to buy through doing 154 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: a FOIA Freedom of Information Act request and discovering somebody. 155 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 1: So the government said, you know, in that law that 156 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 1: that unless they first officially confirmed somebody as an informant, 157 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 1: they don't have to release anything, they don't have to 158 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: admit anything. They can lie about it. And that's what 159 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: they did until it didn't work anymore, and then they 160 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: had to admit in court that hey, this is what 161 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: we were doing. He was an informant, And that led 162 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: to this mediated settlement where we got all these records, 163 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 1: you know, that really spelled out what he did over 164 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: the course of eighteen years, and is the foundation for 165 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: the book. Was it almost like they were kind of 166 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:00,079 Speaker 1: abusing that we felt they did. I mean, were you 167 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: felt that they you know, this law was set up 168 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: for a certain purpose to you know, to keep these 169 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: drug cartels where you know, their their whole businesses, murder 170 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 1: and whatnot, you know, and and that's what it was 171 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:13,679 Speaker 1: set up for. And we felt that they were hiding 172 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 1: this whole these political uh informants from the sixties and 173 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: seventies period where they had all these insidious political investigations 174 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: going on. And what's fascinating about this book is that 175 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:29,679 Speaker 1: in this work we're learning stories can currently both the 176 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: legal fight that that you and your team at the 177 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 1: paper had to had to go into against the FBI, 178 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 1: as well as Earnest Withers as a human being well 179 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: Ernest um Ernest was born and raised in Memphis, and 180 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: he was he fought in World War Two in the 181 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 1: Pacific Theater and actually that's where he learned to become 182 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:51,959 Speaker 1: a photographer. He he was he was trained with the 183 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:55,719 Speaker 1: Army Photography school there and started shooting out in the 184 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 1: Pacific shooting pictures of of servicemen, you know, and they'd 185 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 1: sell them, you know, for two dollars a piece, or 186 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:02,719 Speaker 1: trade a can of beer, you know, to get more 187 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: film to shoot more pictures. He really learned that that 188 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 1: the trade there. And when he came back to Memphis, 189 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: of course, he wants to start out in a business, 190 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: and he launches a small studio there, um and he 191 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: starts shooting pictures um documenting life in the African American 192 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,839 Speaker 1: community in Memphis. And he goes shoots the Negro Leagues 193 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 1: baseball games, you know, the Memphis Red Sox, and he 194 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: meets a lot of you know, big star Satchel Page, 195 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: you know, and and Jackie Robbins and all these these 196 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 1: guys who went on to become you know, huge in America. 197 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: He knew before nobody nobody knew them well. And he 198 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: couldn't get access to a lot of the white versions 199 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 1: of what he was photographing at that time. And absolutely 200 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 1: not right. I mean, you know, it was segregated. Memphis was, 201 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 1: you know, like the rest of the South was was 202 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: segregated at that time. But you know, Ernest was very enterprising. 203 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: So he opens a studio on Bill Street. At the 204 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 1: same time that he you know, this is the late forties, 205 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: he also became one of the first African American police 206 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: officers for the city of Memphis. They had a lot 207 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: of police brutality in that town and they still do 208 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: to this day. But that was kind of the the 209 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:09,359 Speaker 1: impetus forum. The city decided, you know, we need to 210 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: recruit some black officers because they would have better rapport 211 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 1: with a lot of the citizens. In Earnest was up 212 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 1: becoming one of the you know, in that first recruit class. 213 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: He's one of what they called the original nine. And 214 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 1: so he's working all these jobs. He's working a beat 215 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:24,679 Speaker 1: a beat down on bal Street as a cop, you know, 216 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 1: and and at night he's down on Bial Street hustling photos, 217 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 1: you know, taking pictures of BB King and Howling Wolf 218 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 1: and others who you know again, you know, they would 219 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 1: become household names back then, they were just guys on 220 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: Bill Street playing, you know, playing down there, and he 221 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: would sell pictures to uh, to tourists and fans and 222 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: and whatnot. Um, he wound up that the police thing 223 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:47,079 Speaker 1: didn't work out for him. I mean, he got hooked 224 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 1: up in the city's you know corruption, a lot of 225 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 1: corruption in the police department. He was he was working 226 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: with a bootlegger selling selling whiskey. Was petty, petty corruption, 227 00:11:57,240 --> 00:11:59,319 Speaker 1: want up losing his job. But I mean that really 228 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 1: was the best thing that ever happened to him because 229 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: you know that, Um, he starts going to work for 230 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: as a freelancer for the Tri State Defender, which was 231 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: the satellite operation for the Chicago Defender. And after a 232 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: few years, all things start happening. I mean that the 233 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 1: civil rights movement starts blossoming, you know, and Matt Tail 234 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 1: is killed down in Mississippi, and he goes down and 235 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 1: covers that, and you know, then there's the Montgomery bus boycott. 236 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: He's covering that too. So his career, you know, just 237 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:31,439 Speaker 1: really mirrored what was going on at that time. It 238 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: was perfect timing and he always had that that perfect timing, um, 239 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:43,839 Speaker 1: the access and everything. As we're tree seeing the evolution 240 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: of his of his careers, multiple careers, we do see 241 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: that corruption is a larger theme or overarching and when 242 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: when we were looking at the beginning of his involvement 243 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 1: with the FBI, it seems that it may have started 244 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: about nineteen fifty eight or so. Is that correct? Did. Yeah, 245 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:10,200 Speaker 1: I mean the first records in his file that show 246 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: him cooperating with the FBI or from nineteen fifty eight. 247 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 1: It's very sketchy about that three year period about what 248 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: he was doing at that time. Um, but the very 249 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:23,320 Speaker 1: first incident that we know of that he acted in 250 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 1: an informant role is in Little Rock, Arkansas, during the 251 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: aftermath of the school crisis. There he comes into the 252 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 1: field office with Simeon Booker. This is very interesting because 253 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: these were still the movement's early days. Simeon Bookers a 254 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: huge journalist. He worked for Jet Magazine, you know, he 255 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 1: just recently passed away. But but Ernest through you know, 256 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 1: working with The Defender and Jet Magazine, got to know 257 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 1: Simeon and really trailed him, you know, throughout the South. 258 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 1: And the two of them come into the field office 259 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: there and they're they're informing on James Foreman, you know, 260 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 1: another movement icon, you know, and back at that time, 261 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: James Foreman was just a school teacher who in the 262 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 1: time part time that he had would come down and 263 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: start showing up at all these civil rights skirmishes. And 264 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 1: of course the FBI, which is picking up this, and 265 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:11,319 Speaker 1: he's showing up on the radar is you know, views 266 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: him very dimly. He's associated with people with you know, 267 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 1: communist credentials. He's viewed as a suspected communists. They're very suspicious. Um. 268 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 1: So Sime and Booker and Withers are there kicking back 269 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: information about you know, there dim view of James form 270 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: and uh. But you know, Booker had his own controversy 271 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: as an informer. I mean, he was never paid um, 272 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: but he had a relationship with the FBI UM. And 273 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 1: he explained that when he was interviewed by the Washington 274 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: Post late in his life and said that that you know, 275 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: back in those days and when I went down South, 276 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 1: I wanted to come back alive. And he very much 277 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 1: feared the local yokels down there, you know, the police departments, 278 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 1: they were racist, you know. But the FBI had a 279 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: little bit different um reputation. I mean, this was that 280 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: before all this stuff came out about Hoover and how 281 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: he to destroy King and really you know, tried to 282 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: try to infiltrate the movement as he did. And so 283 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: you know, Booker looked at the FBI as a friend, 284 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: as an ally, and he did some puff pieces for them, 285 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: you know, and they they helped him out at times. Um, 286 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: there's no evidence that I know of that he ever 287 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 1: named names like some like you know, Ernest eventually got 288 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 1: into But um, it really seems, you know, the best, 289 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: the best information is that that relationship was initially cultivated 290 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: somehow through Simeon book or Ernest gets this idea that 291 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 1: these are good guys. Sketchy from what he was doing 292 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: in fifty eight to sixty one, but in ninety one, 293 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 1: the whole landscape down their changes. In Memphis, you have 294 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: the what they called the tent city operations where in 295 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: the metro area, their rural Fayette County, all these sharecroppers 296 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 1: were trying to register to vote and they were being 297 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: kicked off their land for doing that, and so they 298 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: they get start living in these encampment's kind of like 299 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 1: an Oakey encampment whor they're living in tents and all that, 300 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: and all these relief agencies from the north start coming 301 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 1: into assist them. The Congress on Racial Equality was one 302 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 1: of them. Again, the FBI saying, wait a minute, you 303 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 1: know they're looking at these guys outside agitators, people with 304 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 1: leftist correct credentials, communists. They want to know who these 305 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: guys are they want to monitor them, and so and 306 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: Ernest is out there shooting pictures. So Bill Lawrence, the 307 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 1: FBI agent who ran the domestic intelligence operations in Memphis 308 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: for the better part of a quarter century, they start 309 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: crossing pass and they start a relationship and and hit 310 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: it off pretty famously. They had a lot in common. 311 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: I mean, Lawrence was you know, religious, he was he 312 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: was raised Baptist. Withers was raised Baptist Um. They both 313 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: liked music. Lawrence, Bill Lawrence had a huge jazz collection 314 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 1: of records, and so he would use that as a 315 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: as a tool in his trade to you know, build 316 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: rapport with people. He recruited a a member of the 317 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 1: n C double A leadership in Memphis because of that relationship. 318 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: They both had big jazz collector. They swapped records back 319 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:09,159 Speaker 1: and forth. So he was a Lawrence was a guy 320 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 1: who could, who could really he had a big personality, 321 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 1: affable guy, very much like Withers, you know, uh, he 322 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: he knew how to work it. And and these guys 323 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: hit it off. And so they're they're starting to send 324 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 1: Earnest out to the tent City operations at the same time. 325 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 1: Mainteen six one freedom writers are starting to come home, 326 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 1: they're coming back from Jackson and whatnot. And some of 327 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 1: these guys don't fit the the old school mold. I mean, 328 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 1: they're they're more militant. I mean, they're not militant and 329 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:38,399 Speaker 1: the think of the sense of the late sixties, you know, 330 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:41,440 Speaker 1: Black power and that. But but these guys are more 331 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 1: into direct action kind of you know, we're not gonna wait, 332 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 1: We're not gonna let you resolve this through the slow 333 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 1: wheels of justice in court. We want it now kind 334 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 1: of thing. And they were the FBI very suspicious that 335 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 1: sort of thing. But Earnest because he'd been a beat 336 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: cop for all those years of studio photographer, freelance news 337 00:17:57,320 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: and he knew all these people and he could he 338 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 1: that's a great thing that he could do. He could 339 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 1: he could tell them who they were, He knew their relatives, 340 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 1: he could tell the home addresses as they were building 341 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 1: these dossiers. You know, he could get an identification picture. 342 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:12,199 Speaker 1: Because he was a photographer. He was very valuable to them. 343 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:15,400 Speaker 1: And you know, at the same time nine, the Nation 344 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: of Islam starts appearing in rural the rural South and 345 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 1: really makes its first appearance in Memphis, they opened a 346 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,640 Speaker 1: mosque on Beal Street, and you know, the fbiot course 347 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:27,199 Speaker 1: their intent is up on them to very suspicious. And 348 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 1: again Ernest he knows them all. He actually you know, 349 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: goes into their operations and takes you know, what are 350 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: posed portraits, um, and they you know, gives them to 351 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 1: the FBI. The FBI cuts up all the portraits, so 352 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: they start building these dossiers where they're they're cutting the 353 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:47,679 Speaker 1: individual individual images into face shots that are you know, 354 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 1: then you know they're building all these dossiers. So he 355 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:53,919 Speaker 1: was immensely helpful to him. And uh, you know, Lawrence 356 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:55,640 Speaker 1: knew we had a good thing from the very giy 357 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:58,639 Speaker 1: go you mentioned. UM. One of the first pieces of 358 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: evidence that you came across was this code number that 359 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 1: he had, and I believe he said initially it was 360 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: three thirty eight R, but then he kind of got upgraded, 361 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 1: right or not maybe to upgrade it different type of 362 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: informant R being he was meant to be like a 363 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: racial informant. So you know, the the R. The R 364 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 1: was for designated a racial informant. And there's kind of 365 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: a lot of you know, arcane history and all that. 366 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: But initially when Lawrence got ahold of him. He wanted 367 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 1: to make him a confidential informant. Um. His earnest history 368 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 1: has with the Memphis Police Department came back to haunt 369 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,639 Speaker 1: him at that point because, um, you know, anybody who 370 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 1: becomes a paid informant for the FBI has to be 371 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 1: approved by Washington, and so the Memphis Field office is 372 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 1: trying to get approval there, and Lawrence senses some hesitancy. 373 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: You know, he goes to interview the police chief of 374 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: the Memphis Police and he and J. C. McDonald he 375 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:51,679 Speaker 1: had a very dim view of whether it's game a 376 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 1: really bad recommendation. So Lawrence kind of hedges it and 377 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: he says, you know, we're not going to make him 378 00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:59,679 Speaker 1: a confidential informant at this time, but he has so 379 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,199 Speaker 1: much information and what they called racial matters in the 380 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: racial field that he made him a potential confidential informant 381 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,680 Speaker 1: was a kind of a probationary status that they kept 382 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: him in for two years, which is a long time 383 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: to be a pc I. UM and would you know, 384 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: it was kind of a dubious situation because you know, 385 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: they would direct him going out into the field. But 386 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: a couple of years later, you know, the movement in 387 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: memphisis really slow then through the mid to late sixties, 388 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: and so they downgraded Earnest at that time to a 389 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 1: confidential source, which is kind of like a reference desk 390 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:37,679 Speaker 1: kind of guy. Like the was so not the same 391 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 1: deal as police officers getting street informants, a much more 392 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,640 Speaker 1: significant vetting process and you have to meet a certain crisis. 393 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 1: They didn't want the control from the FBI, the bureau 394 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 1: would be looking over their shoulder, and he wanted to 395 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: be able to use Withers, you know, it has some 396 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 1: freedom to use him. And so when he he made 397 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 1: for about four years, they made him a confidential source, 398 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: which is sort of a lesser uh, informant, but he 399 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: was doing kind of really the same same thing for 400 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:07,239 Speaker 1: them for four years. Was kind of like you know, 401 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 1: the answer man in the in the black community for them. 402 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: And then finally he didn't get the code number M 403 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: E three R until ninety seven, and by then, you know, 404 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 1: you had the unrest is really blossoming through the country. 405 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 1: You know, you had the riots and Watts and then 406 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,879 Speaker 1: and then Newark in Detroit, and that government is really, uh, 407 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: really paranoid at that point, and they they started something 408 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 1: called the Ghetto informat Program, and they swung Ernest into 409 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: that game the code number UM. He worked under that 410 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 1: code number for about four years and then they tweaked 411 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:43,639 Speaker 1: it UM in one he became m E E for 412 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 1: Extremist Informant, and I had a lot of his investigations 413 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 1: at that point. We're focused pretty much on black power, 414 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:53,159 Speaker 1: but you know, and what they considered extremists, although you 415 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 1: know what they consider extremists, you know, we would just 416 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,679 Speaker 1: probably look at somebody who's just an activist, who's you know, 417 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 1: trying to trying to stand up for civil rights. And 418 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: one important point to establish about Lawrence's backgrounds here, which 419 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: which you provide in in the context of the relationship 420 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 1: with Withers, is that Lawrence is in his later forties 421 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,400 Speaker 1: right when this begins, and he's already made his name 422 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: busting communist threats specifically, and it seems that one of 423 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:28,400 Speaker 1: his primary motivating factors is the fear on the part 424 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 1: of the Bureau that these groups that fuel disenfranchised or 425 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: left out would swing to the communist side, absolutely absolutely, 426 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 1: And that was the thing is that, um, the FBI, 427 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:43,399 Speaker 1: you know, Bill Lawrence is very much a cold warrior. 428 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,159 Speaker 1: I mean his his career. He cut his teeth right 429 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: after he got in the bureau. Right after World War Two. 430 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 1: You know, um in the late forties, you know when 431 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 1: when the when the when the Chinese and the Soviets 432 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 1: get the atomic bomb like forty nine, and that this 433 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 1: is when he's really going at it an internal security 434 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: And in the early fifties, they they just eviscerate the 435 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 1: Communist Party in Memphis. James Eastland, the well known segregationist 436 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: senator from Mississippi, had hearings in Memphis, and his work 437 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: product was largely Bill Lawrences investigations. And they they ran 438 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:17,879 Speaker 1: all these communists out of town, people who are involved 439 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:22,360 Speaker 1: in the labor movement there um Lawrence and arrest Junior Scales, 440 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 1: who you know is was a Communist Party leader down 441 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 1: There was a very famous case. He's he's seen viewed today, 442 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,880 Speaker 1: is the only man to go to prison for being 443 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: simply for being a member of the Communist Party or 444 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: a political party. I mean, they prosecuted him under the 445 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,120 Speaker 1: Smith Act. But there was all this paranoia and in Memphis, 446 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: is in a lot of places across the country, the 447 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,119 Speaker 1: FBI went hard after the FBI, and they basically wiped 448 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: them out, and so you know, by the time the 449 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,439 Speaker 1: sixties come around and there's you know that the movement, 450 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 1: the civil rights moment starts blossoming. They're they're very much 451 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,639 Speaker 1: worried about communist influences, you know, and a lot of 452 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 1: this stuff is like red baiting. You know, this really 453 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: a version of racism. You know that you know, you 454 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: guys are troublemakers, agitators. A lot of this trickled down 455 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: from the top from Hoover, you know that anybody who 456 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: was involved in that sort of thing what had to 457 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: be some kind of communist And so they went after 458 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: these these uh outside agitators, these groups very zealously. They 459 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,199 Speaker 1: wanted they wanted to contain them. They wanted to you know, 460 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 1: keep them, keep them from influencing the movement there and 461 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,879 Speaker 1: the interesting thing to then double a CP in Memphis, 462 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 1: so that they did a lot of good work, you know, 463 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 1: on behalf of civil rights. On the whole, they were 464 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:38,400 Speaker 1: pretty conservative organization. They they wanted to move slowly and cautiously. 465 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: They believed in litigating in court to get your rights 466 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:43,400 Speaker 1: versus you know, kind of the Martin Luther King thing 467 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 1: of direct action getting in the streets, sit ins and whatnot, 468 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 1: and and protesting and so and he had, you know, 469 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 1: developed good sources within the n double a CP leadership. 470 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 1: He had at least three key figures there who were 471 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 1: informants who were kicking back information to him, and they, 472 00:24:57,800 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: you know, he would influence them and they wouldn't, you know, 473 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: try to go along with a lot of things that 474 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 1: that you know that he and the larger society were saying, 475 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 1: they didn't go for a lot of this stuff. And 476 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 1: because they didn't, it was a lot of it was 477 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: preserving the status quo they wanted. They thought they were 478 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,120 Speaker 1: protecting the country's internal stability by keeping law and order, 479 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 1: keeping things peaceful. You get your rights, but you can 480 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 1: get them later, but you're gonna you're gonna have to 481 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:25,879 Speaker 1: slow walk this. And then the question becomes what next 482 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:31,360 Speaker 1: Were they successful? How far did this conflict go in Memphis, 483 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 1: Tennessee and later the United States? We'll find out after 484 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 1: a word from our sponsors. And we're back to to 485 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: focus on the scene as as it's playing out. So 486 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:54,919 Speaker 1: Withers is working with Lawrence, and Lawrence's primary concern is 487 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 1: ultimately the rise of communism. Did did Withers share. The 488 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: concern was the ideologically motivated to function as an informant. 489 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 1: I think he was ideologically motivated, certainly when it came 490 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 1: to the war. I mean him being a World War 491 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 1: Two veteran by the time the sixties, you know, mid sixties, 492 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,640 Speaker 1: He's got he's heavily invested in the military. He's got 493 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: three kids and the military. He's got one in the 494 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: front lines in Vietnam. So certainly when it came to, um, 495 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: you know, the war, I think he was heavily invested in, 496 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:30,679 Speaker 1: invested in that that that ideology. UM. I think a 497 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:32,879 Speaker 1: lot of his motivation came from the need for money. 498 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 1: I mean, he had eight kids, he was always hustling 499 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 1: up a living. He could never really make it out 500 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,959 Speaker 1: of the the kind of the middle lower middle class 501 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 1: lived life that he had, so that was a big 502 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 1: factor for him as well. And ideologically to again, he 503 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: was a Memphis man, and the influence of the N 504 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: double A CP was great. They didn't go for a 505 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 1: lot of this confrontational stuff, you know, the agitators that 506 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: those are the folks that were really viewed suspiciously. You 507 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,640 Speaker 1: do mention the financial motivation, which I think Noel Matt 508 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:07,360 Speaker 1: and I collectively found very interesting. As as you established earlier, 509 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: many of the informants were unpaid, right right, and Withers 510 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,919 Speaker 1: himself is an exception to this rule. And you were 511 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: actually able to discover the total amount of money that 512 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 1: he received his compensation. Is that correct? That's right. Well, 513 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 1: the reason we did that is because I made sure 514 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: that when we settled with the FBI, they stipulated how 515 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,680 Speaker 1: much he got paid. Because the thing was is that 516 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 1: when we did this deal, they said they wanted to 517 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: save phace. They did not want to have to reach 518 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: into an informant file and bring out informant records that 519 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 1: would say show things like how much he got paid, 520 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,160 Speaker 1: how he's recruited, you know, how he was directed and whatnot, 521 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 1: and all the other informants aren't going to want to 522 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:47,640 Speaker 1: get paid the same. Well, yeah, right, I mean there's 523 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 1: I guess there's a you know, a negotiation thing issue there, 524 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: but um but yeah, I'm so. We stipulated in there 525 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,120 Speaker 1: that that they would tell us the amount and what 526 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,159 Speaker 1: it was was twenty dollars over those eighteen years. Now, 527 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: that doesn't sound like a whole lot of money, but 528 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 1: when you think about it, you've got to think about inflation. 529 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,639 Speaker 1: You know, that money today would be about a hundred 530 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: and forty or a hundred and fifty thousand dollars. So 531 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: if he's getting paid that kind of money over eighteen years, 532 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: that's about maybe six to eight thousand dollars a year. 533 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: I mean that would get you. That would put food 534 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:19,919 Speaker 1: on the table. You've got eight kids to feed, You 535 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:22,440 Speaker 1: get gas for your vehicles, and help you pay a mortgage. 536 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: I mean, it's nothing to sneeze at. So you know, 537 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:29,880 Speaker 1: the financial thing I think weighs into this heavily, more 538 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: so than the ideological part. And as a matter of fact, 539 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 1: my initial source told me point blank and his view, 540 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 1: he said Earnest was in it for the money. But 541 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, given the situation with his career 542 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 1: as a police officer, he obviously didn't have scruples about, 543 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 1: you know, doing things under the table, or or doing 544 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 1: things that weren't necessarily legal. Right. Well, I mean the 545 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 1: thing too is that you know, I try not to 546 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 1: judge Earnest. I mean, he was a man of his times. 547 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: That police department was very corrupt, and there were a 548 00:28:57,480 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: lot of guys who were doing the same sorts of 549 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 1: thing and there's a strong argument to be made that 550 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 1: they rooted him out because he was black. I think 551 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: racism does play a role into it, although I don't 552 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 1: think it excuses him in that regard. But yeah, I 553 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: mean there's a there was a lot of corruption in 554 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 1: Memphis still is, and the extent of his work with 555 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: Lawrence and the FBI was not the kind of James 556 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 1: Bond stuff we would imagine with a secret agent. It 557 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 1: was as as we said, it was almost entirely surveillance 558 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: and reporting. Is that correct, right? Well, I mean a 559 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 1: lot of people think, you know, when somebody is an informant, 560 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: they think, you know, some somebody covertly working undercover, playing 561 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: a role infiltrating a criminal organization, which is kind of 562 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: the classic you know informant that you'd have. Um, these 563 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 1: operations didn't work like that. I mean, he was an 564 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 1: intelligence informant. And what they were trying to do, I mean, 565 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: the FBI, they weren't trying to prosecute most of these 566 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 1: people because they couldn't. They'd had their wings clipped in 567 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 1: so many rulings that you know, a lot of these 568 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 1: operations were actually technically illegal. You know that the especial 569 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 1: when you get into the co intel of stuff. They 570 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 1: never had authorization from Congress or any law or anything. 571 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: They just did it. But you know what these intelligence 572 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 1: informants would do. They were trying to collect wide swaths 573 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: of personal and political information that the FBI could use 574 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 1: to monitor people, to help contain them, and sometimes to 575 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: act against them. And so that's what he was doing. 576 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 1: He had no need to be, you know, cloak and 577 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: dagger undercover. All he had. All Earnest had to do 578 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 1: was be earnest to get the information they needed because 579 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 1: he had incredible access. He'd show up with his cameras. 580 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: Everybody let him in, whether it was meetings, marches. Loved right, 581 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: and he was he still is beloved. And you know, 582 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 1: and if I haven't said this yet, I should. I mean, 583 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: he is a legitimate civil rights hero. I've said this 584 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 1: many times. I don't think anything he did for the 585 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: FBI eclipses the good that he did for the movement. 586 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: His pictures are just overwhelming and very powerful, and they 587 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: were powerful in their time and they are now. But 588 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 1: I do think this hidden history rivals what he was doing. 589 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's a history that's very instructive for 590 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 1: you know us if you know, if we want to 591 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 1: live in a true democracy. Um, you know, a lot 592 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 1: of stuff that they were doing, billing files on people. 593 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 1: It was it really was crazy stuff. I mean, it 594 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 1: was a lot of it was illegal. Yeah. It's fascinating 595 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 1: to imagine him inside Martin Luther King's hotel room. There's 596 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: a picture of m Okay sitting on the bed holding 597 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 1: up newspaper and just imagine just being in there and 598 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 1: just that close with him at all times. I mean, 599 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 1: as much as possible. He was. He was very trusted. Um. 600 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 1: You know, I do think that the connection between Ernest 601 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: and Martin Luther King has been hyped a bit. You know, 602 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 1: King was based in Atlanta and Wathers was in in Memphis. 603 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 1: King didn't come to Memphis a whole lot, and and 604 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 1: Withers was an informant for Bill Lawrence in the Memphis 605 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 1: Field Office. So even though you know, he would go 606 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 1: out to these various civil rights events that would take 607 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 1: him down into Alabama and Mississippi, Arkansas, you know, kind 608 00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 1: of a lot of places, but the bulk of his 609 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 1: his operations was right there in Memphis, And so there 610 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 1: wasn't a whole lot of opportunity. King came to Memphis, 611 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 1: you know, in the late fifties. He came there in 612 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty six for the March Against Fear, and then 613 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 1: he came there three times in the spring of nineteen 614 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 1: sixty eight. So you know, even that said, I mean, yeah, 615 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 1: I mean King's staff loved Ernest every time they came 616 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 1: there that you know, he and Ernest had that big personality. 617 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,959 Speaker 1: I mean, he would joke and they really liked him, 618 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 1: trusted him. You know, I mentioned in these pictures that 619 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 1: you're talking about, you know, you know who could have 620 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,040 Speaker 1: got pictures like that exactly? You know, you know Dr King, 621 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: you know, just relaxing totally on his bed and not 622 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 1: seemingly not a care in the world. You know, it's 623 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 1: they really are amazing pictures. No. Withers had over the 624 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 1: course of his work with the FBI several we'd call 625 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 1: him close calls, right, yeah, yeah. And one of the 626 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: questions that we had was a what if scenario? What 627 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 1: would have happened had he been caught or exposed because 628 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 1: in the book are several instances where someone hears him 629 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 1: talking on the phone to someone, or where activists who 630 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:10,720 Speaker 1: have been questioned or targeted by the FBI come to 631 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 1: him and say what's going on? So what what would 632 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 1: have happened had the had he reached that jigaz up situation. Well, 633 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 1: if it had happened, I think in in in the 634 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 1: the heat of nineteen when the volatile sanitation strike, I 635 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 1: think that he quite possibly could have his reputation could 636 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 1: have been severely damaged, and I think he would have 637 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 1: been viewed quite possibly as a traitor at that point. Um. 638 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:39,800 Speaker 1: You know, there were a number of people who were 639 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 1: who were working with the Memphis Police Department, which worked 640 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 1: in close, very closely with the FBI there and a 641 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 1: lot of these investigations and they were found out and 642 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 1: you know, there's a report of one instance where an 643 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 1: officer who's there undercover is literally dragged up onto the 644 00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 1: stage in front of all these people. They scrip him 645 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 1: of his on and his mace can and they basically 646 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 1: they were going to you know, rough him up, and 647 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 1: it was only because some women came and intervened that 648 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 1: that they let him go. And um, you know, one 649 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 1: of one of the big pastors there, h Ralph Jackson, 650 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 1: who became a movement leader during the sanitation strike. You know, 651 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 1: at one point during the strike, there were so many 652 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 1: so much pressure to you know, for from the police 653 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 1: to provide information. He's there at the pulpit and you know, 654 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 1: Ernest is in the crowd and he's telling him if 655 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 1: there are any police nitchers here, he says, I won't 656 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 1: stop you from beating being beaten up. You know. They're 657 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,719 Speaker 1: just tired of all this, you know. So I think 658 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,399 Speaker 1: that Earnest things could have been much different for him 659 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 1: had this come out at that time. It's interesting, he 660 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,319 Speaker 1: did have a number of close calls. I do think 661 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 1: some people did find out in various ways they knew 662 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,400 Speaker 1: this and that and whatnot. Um, you know, he was 663 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 1: called to testify before Congress in secret in night when 664 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:58,400 Speaker 1: they're reinvestigating Martin Luther King's murder. And um, that was 665 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,720 Speaker 1: another close call. That was probably the the biggest closest 666 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 1: call of all. And they when you read these reports, 667 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,319 Speaker 1: the public reports, they never referred to Ernest by name, 668 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,719 Speaker 1: but they do say that they asked him if he 669 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,719 Speaker 1: would be willing to go public and he didn't want 670 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 1: to do it. Its interesting too, Um, that was around 671 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,400 Speaker 1: November of nineteen seventy eight. In January of nineteen seventy nine, 672 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 1: Ernest is indicted in Memphis as part of this clemency 673 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 1: for cash scandal. I mean, he's into this huge corruption 674 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 1: scandal up to his eyeballs. Where the you know, the 675 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:34,239 Speaker 1: very corrupt regime, the Ray Blanton administration. They're letting inmates 676 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 1: out of prison for cash and a murderers, robbers, you'd 677 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 1: pay ten twenty thousand, as much as eighty thousand dollars 678 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:41,279 Speaker 1: a year out on the street. It was, it was, 679 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,840 Speaker 1: you know, he's indicted in all of that. His defense 680 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 1: attorney I interviewed him, Um, he didn't know that Ernest 681 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 1: was an informant, and he told me, you know, wow, 682 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:52,880 Speaker 1: I could have really used that. I think I could have. 683 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,279 Speaker 1: Even though Ernest got a great deal there. He wanted 684 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,280 Speaker 1: he turned state's evidence, I want to testifying in two trials, 685 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:01,959 Speaker 1: and they gave him one year for extoration with six 686 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,279 Speaker 1: months suspended. Um, he got a hell of a deal, 687 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:05,719 Speaker 1: but he could have got I don't know if I 688 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,319 Speaker 1: can say that he got a hell of a deal, 689 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 1: and but he could have gotten off maybe completely. But 690 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 1: you know, why didn't he tell his own defense attorney. 691 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,239 Speaker 1: That's an interesting question. I think he was still you 692 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 1: know the heat of that, you know, so close to 693 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:25,800 Speaker 1: that being called to Congress to Washington in nineteen November, 694 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:28,840 Speaker 1: this is just months later. I think it just unnerved 695 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 1: him to the point where he didn't feel he could 696 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:32,799 Speaker 1: say anything. Yeah, and in your book you say that 697 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 1: his last report to the FBI had only occurred a 698 00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:37,800 Speaker 1: few years prior to that. Yeah, I think it was 699 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,880 Speaker 1: seventy four, seventy five. I mean, he's still pretty close 700 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,680 Speaker 1: to the people that he's just been informing on. And 701 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 1: at this point he's informing on the Black Panthers, on 702 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:49,719 Speaker 1: a lot of some of the more militant groups. And 703 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,680 Speaker 1: you think he was in danger of bodily harm, I mean, 704 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 1: quite quite possibly, although you know, I think Hoover in 705 00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 1: the FBI really hyped that the threat of power and 706 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:04,040 Speaker 1: in Memphis too, because I mean, they did have a 707 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:07,920 Speaker 1: small contingent of Black Panthers there, but um, they were 708 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,320 Speaker 1: no threat to anybody's public safety. What they were doing 709 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,800 Speaker 1: was they were, um, they tried to start a breakfast 710 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,640 Speaker 1: program for poor children, and they were trying to put 711 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:21,359 Speaker 1: awareness on sickle cell anemia UM. At one point in 712 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,920 Speaker 1: the early seventies, by one of the FBI reports, there 713 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,399 Speaker 1: are like seven people in this black panther yeah unit, 714 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,200 Speaker 1: and and one of them is Earnest. They list the names, 715 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:32,719 Speaker 1: and one of them is Earnest and the other is 716 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,760 Speaker 1: an undercover cop for for the Memphis Police Department. So um. 717 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:38,880 Speaker 1: And you know it's interesting too there, Okay, they were 718 00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:41,879 Speaker 1: they weren't they Their reputation was much more threatening than 719 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 1: what they actually were. But they took this thing very seriously. 720 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:49,279 Speaker 1: And it's interesting too that that Earnest Um at one 721 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,080 Speaker 1: point takes pictures at the instruction of the FBI of 722 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,799 Speaker 1: the outside of their headquarters, their home. It's a two 723 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: frame house. This one picture shot way across and kind 724 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:01,359 Speaker 1: of through branches, and it's kind of, you know, sick, 725 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,160 Speaker 1: secretive and mysterious looking. And then he gets a picture 726 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:06,279 Speaker 1: of the front door and goes around and gets a 727 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,920 Speaker 1: picture of the back door. You know, it's quite clearly 728 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 1: they're trying to identify the points of ingress and egress 729 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,319 Speaker 1: out of this place in the contingency that they might 730 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:16,719 Speaker 1: have to raid this place. And they also get information 731 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,319 Speaker 1: from Earnest about what weapons are inside. And so what 732 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:21,879 Speaker 1: he tells him is there's a twenty two pistol next 733 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:23,560 Speaker 1: to the bed and there's a shotgun. You know, kind 734 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,440 Speaker 1: of just the kind of the weapons that an average 735 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 1: Memphian or you know, Southerner would have, you know, like 736 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 1: like who's sleeping in which rooms? Which room has the gun? 737 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:37,239 Speaker 1: Like it's exactly what you would need to enter that home. Absolutely, 738 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 1: And it's interesting too, you know, that could have been 739 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:41,600 Speaker 1: a huge fiasco because if you know the story of 740 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:45,239 Speaker 1: Fred Hampton, remember the Black Panther Party in Chicago, who 741 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 1: a lot of people believe it was a police murder 742 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,280 Speaker 1: of him. You know, they had a bureau informant sketch 743 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 1: out the layout of that apartment and the police come 744 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 1: into the middle of night and shoot like scores around 745 00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,120 Speaker 1: so there and kill him. I means, I mean, who knows, 746 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,000 Speaker 1: maybe something that that could have happened here, But it's 747 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:04,200 Speaker 1: kind of a very similar situation. Yes, So let's let's 748 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 1: look at some of the aftermath with with this with 749 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:15,280 Speaker 1: this report. Uh, when you when you release the initial story, 750 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:19,680 Speaker 1: when the story first breaks, how did people react both 751 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 1: in the Memphis community where Withers is. I believe, as 752 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:27,040 Speaker 1: he established, he has streets named after him. He's got 753 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:29,240 Speaker 1: a blue note, he's he's got he's got a blues 754 00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:31,319 Speaker 1: note on Bill Street, which is the equivalent of the 755 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:33,719 Speaker 1: Hollywood Star. He's got a building named after him. This 756 00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,080 Speaker 1: is two thousand ten. He's got a street named after him. 757 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 1: Since then, he's got a museum and his he's got 758 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:44,080 Speaker 1: a historical marker outside his home. And what was the 759 00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:51,520 Speaker 1: reaction both in today's activist community with Withers surviving relatives 760 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 1: and with Memphis at large. Well, I mean there was 761 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:58,520 Speaker 1: a lot of disbelief um Earnest family and a circle 762 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:00,600 Speaker 1: of followers. Initially it was said that, you know, I 763 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:04,520 Speaker 1: made this up. Um. That position has morphed over time 764 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:06,480 Speaker 1: as more information has come out. At one time it 765 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,279 Speaker 1: was said that, you know, the FBI might have called 766 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,280 Speaker 1: him an informant, But all he did was sell pictures 767 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 1: to the FBI, just like he did a lot of clients, 768 00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:18,160 Speaker 1: which is not in and of itself illegal, No, it's not, 769 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,120 Speaker 1: And it is something that he did. The thing is 770 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:21,920 Speaker 1: that he did a lot more than just that. And mean, 771 00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:24,399 Speaker 1: he was given a lot of oral intel and really 772 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,239 Speaker 1: infiltrating a lot of these groups. But um, yeah, I 773 00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:30,400 Speaker 1: mean there was a whole spectrum of reaction. Dick Gregory, 774 00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:35,200 Speaker 1: the famous comedian activist, you know, labeled Earnest judas that's 775 00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:36,960 Speaker 1: what he called and he said he betrayed the movement. 776 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:41,000 Speaker 1: Um that was a rather harsh critique, Um judged the Army. Bailey, 777 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,120 Speaker 1: another long time civil rights activist who has also passed on, 778 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:46,960 Speaker 1: did feel that Ernest betrayed the movement. But then you 779 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,759 Speaker 1: had people like Andrew Young, who you know, said that, 780 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:52,560 Speaker 1: you know, look, we were a transparent movement. You know, 781 00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:54,520 Speaker 1: he really couldn't hurt us in any way. I don't 782 00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:56,040 Speaker 1: see what the harm is of that. I don't think 783 00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,479 Speaker 1: Dr King would have, you know, found any anything wrong 784 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,279 Speaker 1: with that. But you can't deny that he ruined some 785 00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:06,880 Speaker 1: people's lives. That's the thing is that the individual abuses. 786 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:08,799 Speaker 1: And that's why you know, when Congress, you know, when 787 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,000 Speaker 1: the Church Committee in the nineteen seventies looked at a 788 00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:14,840 Speaker 1: lot of these operations, I mean, they found just rife 789 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:17,239 Speaker 1: with abuse. I mean, the thing is is that they 790 00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:20,520 Speaker 1: were collecting data on people who weren't weren't doing anything illegal. 791 00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 1: They were they were standing up, you know, marching in 792 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,440 Speaker 1: the street, exercising First Amendment rights, standing up against the 793 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,839 Speaker 1: Vietnam War, you know, standing up against Jim crow and 794 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:32,040 Speaker 1: but they were treated as enemies and all this personal data. 795 00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:34,759 Speaker 1: You know. One of the things that Ernest did is 796 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:38,160 Speaker 1: he'd give them auto tag numbers. Um, he'd give them, 797 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,799 Speaker 1: uh phone numbers, and the FBI would use those to 798 00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:45,040 Speaker 1: do warrantless searches of targets, you know, phone records. They 799 00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:46,880 Speaker 1: go through, they have a source at the phone department 800 00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:50,319 Speaker 1: and they go and um, you know, get them find 801 00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:52,120 Speaker 1: out who they're toll charges or who they're talking to, 802 00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:53,920 Speaker 1: because they wanted to figure out who their associates were. 803 00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:56,600 Speaker 1: On and on and but there were a number of 804 00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,960 Speaker 1: incidents like that that when the the FBI, very strong 805 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,200 Speaker 1: only in Memphis in the late sixties, tried to undercut 806 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:06,719 Speaker 1: the Black Power movement. And it's very similar and the 807 00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,319 Speaker 1: way they went about it to the whole McCarthy ism 808 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:14,359 Speaker 1: era of the fifties in that they went after sympathizers, supporters, 809 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,960 Speaker 1: associates in addition to the actual activists and so and 810 00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:20,160 Speaker 1: again people got hurt in that there was there was 811 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:22,480 Speaker 1: there's a man who actually is going to be speaking 812 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:26,720 Speaker 1: with me tonight, Um, Bobby Doctor who was a longtime 813 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:30,520 Speaker 1: activists in the movement who by the late sixties was 814 00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:33,040 Speaker 1: working for the U s Civil Rights Commission as a 815 00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:35,360 Speaker 1: field representative in Memphis. He went on to become the 816 00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,200 Speaker 1: Southeast Regional director here in Atlanta, where he worked for 817 00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:40,799 Speaker 1: the organization for more than forty years, but early on 818 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:44,400 Speaker 1: he nearly lost his job because of these FBI investigations. 819 00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:47,000 Speaker 1: And Withers played a role in that. I mean, he 820 00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:50,320 Speaker 1: was deemed somebody, you know, Withers and other informers kickbacked 821 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,640 Speaker 1: information that hey, look this guy, he's he's at some 822 00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:56,840 Speaker 1: Black power oriented meetings. He's he's at social gatherings with 823 00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,799 Speaker 1: these with these activists. And at one point, Ernest even 824 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,440 Speaker 1: us a picture. He tells his handler, Bill Lawrence, you know, 825 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:07,359 Speaker 1: I was covering this march and Bobby Doctor was there, 826 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:09,799 Speaker 1: and he was holding hands with this woman, you know, 827 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,319 Speaker 1: and Bobby's married and the woman's married, but they ain't 828 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:14,200 Speaker 1: married to each other, and so and Lawrence, so I 829 00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:16,319 Speaker 1: gotta have the picture. He got the picture, and you know, 830 00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:18,040 Speaker 1: of course he puts it all in the report, and 831 00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:21,160 Speaker 1: so you know, they're they're trying to undercut him. He 832 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:24,239 Speaker 1: had a colleague there, Rosette Miller, same kind of thing, 833 00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:27,279 Speaker 1: whether he's giving pictures passes on rumors about her and 834 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:29,600 Speaker 1: you know, tells him that she's the kind who will 835 00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:33,799 Speaker 1: give aid and comfort is how Lawrence paraphrases Withers will 836 00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:36,000 Speaker 1: give aid and comfort to the black power groups. So 837 00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:39,160 Speaker 1: that's the thing about this that I think Andrew Young, 838 00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:41,759 Speaker 1: you know, bless his heart, didn't consider when he thinks, 839 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:44,399 Speaker 1: you know, that these were so innocent and what what 840 00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:47,080 Speaker 1: would it matter to a transparent movement. It matters because 841 00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:50,160 Speaker 1: they were going after certain individuals and they were trying 842 00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:54,240 Speaker 1: to hurt them. Mark. It's would of our great regrets 843 00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:58,279 Speaker 1: that we don't have more time today for this interview, 844 00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:02,799 Speaker 1: but we do want who close on a note that 845 00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:07,200 Speaker 1: we know our listeners are going to be asking. You 846 00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:12,560 Speaker 1: mentioned the surveillance techniques of the of the sixties and 847 00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:16,239 Speaker 1: into the seventies in the book, Uh, how would you 848 00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:21,279 Speaker 1: say government surveillance is different or similar today? Because, as 849 00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:27,120 Speaker 1: many of our listeners know, co Intel pro is over. Well, 850 00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:29,759 Speaker 1: you know, the hearings out of the seventies, they you know, 851 00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:31,720 Speaker 1: they talked about a lot of reform, and the FBI, 852 00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:34,160 Speaker 1: you know, when all this stuff came out reeled in 853 00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:38,400 Speaker 1: these investigations, they had like something like at one point, 854 00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,880 Speaker 1: you know, fifty thousand different domestic intelligence operations going on 855 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:45,719 Speaker 1: of American citizens, and you know in the mid to 856 00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:48,279 Speaker 1: early seventies and by seventy seven that they're down to 857 00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:52,400 Speaker 1: virtually zero. So they really tried to reform the program. UM. 858 00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:55,160 Speaker 1: You know, in the years that have passed since UM, 859 00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:57,719 Speaker 1: you know that they tried to focus more on on 860 00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:01,080 Speaker 1: actual crimes, terrorism, whatnot. You know, you have, you get information, 861 00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:03,799 Speaker 1: you do a preliminary investigation, and then if that, you know, 862 00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,520 Speaker 1: if there's more probable cause, you've launched a more full 863 00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,080 Speaker 1: field investigation. You know, there are a lot of people 864 00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:12,080 Speaker 1: to this day who believe, you know, like I think 865 00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:15,240 Speaker 1: you mentioned, who don't really believe that they were also 866 00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:20,600 Speaker 1: in reformed. In Memphis recently there was a lawsuit filed 867 00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:24,759 Speaker 1: UM on behalf of a various Black Lives Matter activists. 868 00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:30,120 Speaker 1: They are getting UM indications that the same sort of 869 00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:32,560 Speaker 1: thing is going on today, and it's interested in Memphis 870 00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:35,319 Speaker 1: because you know, the Bill Lawrence helped set up the 871 00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:39,200 Speaker 1: Memphis Police Department's Red Squad there, the Domestic Intelligence Unit. 872 00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:42,000 Speaker 1: They worked very closely together, and in the mid seventies, 873 00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,919 Speaker 1: the the the a c l U filed a suit 874 00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:47,040 Speaker 1: they found out that they were gathering all this political 875 00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:51,160 Speaker 1: intelligence and got landmark decision, a consent decree that forever, 876 00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:54,960 Speaker 1: you know, forbids the Memphis Police Department from conducting illegal 877 00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,200 Speaker 1: political surveillance. Some people think it's still going on. And 878 00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:00,680 Speaker 1: it's kind of interesting that I wrote a story about, 879 00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:03,879 Speaker 1: you know, shortly after I did the first Earnest Weather 880 00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:07,520 Speaker 1: stories about that consent degree, and I asked the police 881 00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:12,200 Speaker 1: department for their their manuals and their procedure manual, and 882 00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:14,280 Speaker 1: you know, there was no mention of this consent decree, 883 00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:15,719 Speaker 1: and so then they didn't even know what I was 884 00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:18,080 Speaker 1: talking about. They very quickly amended that and put it 885 00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:21,080 Speaker 1: in there. You know, It's just but you know, there's 886 00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:22,719 Speaker 1: a lot of people who think this this sort of 887 00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:24,440 Speaker 1: thing is going on today, and this is what this 888 00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:27,239 Speaker 1: suit in Memphis last year was filed about. There were 889 00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:31,799 Speaker 1: several individuals who were put on a blacklist where they said, 890 00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,560 Speaker 1: like in several of them were Black Lives Matters activists 891 00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:37,839 Speaker 1: and others who are politically active in there in town there, 892 00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:41,920 Speaker 1: and um, the list said if these individuals show up 893 00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:43,759 Speaker 1: the city hall, they're gonna need an escort. Well, how 894 00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:45,839 Speaker 1: do you know who these guys are unless you've done 895 00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,560 Speaker 1: some surreality that addresses and whatnot, and you know what 896 00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:50,319 Speaker 1: they've been doing. This is the kind of thing that 897 00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:53,319 Speaker 1: people think, you know, there's these secret operations to some 898 00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,480 Speaker 1: degree are still going on. Um. It feels like full 899 00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:58,560 Speaker 1: circle to me in terms of the political climate that 900 00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,400 Speaker 1: we're in right now compared to you know, the period 901 00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:04,840 Speaker 1: described in your book. Well, you know, the sixties was 902 00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:08,120 Speaker 1: a period of high paranoia and and and polarization, and 903 00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:10,719 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I mean we have a lot of 904 00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:12,880 Speaker 1: that here today too. And you know, it's been said 905 00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:17,520 Speaker 1: that it was so easy for um, certain informants perhaps 906 00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:19,920 Speaker 1: earnest to you know, to do what they did, for 907 00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:22,720 Speaker 1: the government to do, to go after these individuals so strongly, 908 00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:25,480 Speaker 1: because there was very much this we versus they that 909 00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:28,880 Speaker 1: they mentality, you know, that they're the bad guys, they're evil, 910 00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:31,359 Speaker 1: you know, they're they're communist controlled, which is a big 911 00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:33,120 Speaker 1: thing you've seen in a lot of these FBI reports, 912 00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:35,239 Speaker 1: particularly when it comes to the war. So yeah, I mean, 913 00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:38,200 Speaker 1: I think periods like this, you know, they're they're right 914 00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:40,319 Speaker 1: for abuse. And this is why I think there's this 915 00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:44,120 Speaker 1: need to be ever vigilant on these matters. Well, guys, 916 00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:46,760 Speaker 1: I'm afraid we're not gonna be able to hit everything 917 00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:49,759 Speaker 1: in this book. But the good thing is all you 918 00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:56,120 Speaker 1: have to do is pick it up red. Honestly, the 919 00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:58,439 Speaker 1: three of us have read a Spine Canaan by Mark 920 00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:01,640 Speaker 1: Paris Kia and honestly would highly recommend it because the 921 00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:04,480 Speaker 1: events in the book actually paint such a vivid story 922 00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:08,680 Speaker 1: of surveillance by the FBI on people who are just 923 00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:12,759 Speaker 1: trying to express themselves with our constitutional rights. I think 924 00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:16,560 Speaker 1: it's at an incredibly timely book, you know, with what's 925 00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:18,600 Speaker 1: going on right now. I think it's a really fascinating 926 00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:21,560 Speaker 1: read and can't recommend it highly enough. Yes, friends and neighbors, 927 00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:24,799 Speaker 1: the book is a Spy in Canaan. Mark, thank you 928 00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:28,840 Speaker 1: again so very much for coming on our show, and 929 00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:33,399 Speaker 1: we hope, if possible we could interview you in the 930 00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:37,000 Speaker 1: future as things develop. I'd love to do it. That's 931 00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:39,279 Speaker 1: all for us today, folks. I didn't mean to sound 932 00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:43,640 Speaker 1: so bugs Bunny with you can you can reach Nol 933 00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:47,239 Speaker 1: Matt and I directly will be back very soon with 934 00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:51,239 Speaker 1: a brand new episode. In the meantime, If you're a 935 00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:54,480 Speaker 1: person who's a fan of the Internet, there's good news. 936 00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:56,879 Speaker 1: You can find us there too. We're on it. Yeah, 937 00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:00,000 Speaker 1: we're on Twitter and Facebook, Conspiracy Stuff and Conspiracy Stuff 938 00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,480 Speaker 1: show on Instagram. If you don't like any of that stuff, 939 00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:04,120 Speaker 1: you can go to Stuff they Don't Want you to 940 00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:06,960 Speaker 1: Know dot com And here every episode that we've ever created, 941 00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:09,319 Speaker 1: and some videos too, and some other things you'll find. 942 00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:12,239 Speaker 1: And we'd like to give a very special thank you 943 00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:16,680 Speaker 1: to E. R. Anderson at Keras Books in Atlanta for 944 00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:20,000 Speaker 1: connecting us with Mark. Do check it out and support 945 00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:22,480 Speaker 1: your local bookstore. And if you've ever been, you should 946 00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:24,840 Speaker 1: write to us. If you have any thoughts about anything 947 00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:28,759 Speaker 1: we've discussed today, send us an email. We are conspiracy 948 00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:50,320 Speaker 1: at how Stuff Works dot com