WEBVTT - Ep 19 Scurvy: Thanks a lot, evolution. 0:00:00.880 --> 0:00:04.160 I was once again dreaming of fortune and success when 0:00:04.160 --> 0:00:06.680 my hopes were blasted by an attack of a terrible 0:00:06.760 --> 0:00:09.880 scourge that wrought destruction through the northern mines during the 0:00:09.920 --> 0:00:14.600 winter of eighteen forty eight forty nine land scurvy. I 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:18.080 noticed its first attack upon myself by swelling and bleeding 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:21.320 of the gums, followed by a swelling of both legs 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:23.759 below the knee, and I was laid up in my tent, 0:00:24.120 --> 0:00:26.960 obliged to feed upon the very articles that had caused 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:31.480 the disease, and growing daily weaker without any reasonable prospect 0:00:31.560 --> 0:00:35.000 of relief. I was almost in despair. With only a 0:00:35.000 --> 0:00:38.400 blanket between myself and the damp, cold earth, and a 0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:41.120 thin canvas to protect me from the burning sun by 0:00:41.240 --> 0:00:44.520 day and the heavy dews by night. I lay day 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:48.400 after day enduring the most intense suffering from pain in 0:00:48.440 --> 0:00:51.680 my limbs, which were now becoming more swollen and were 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:56.480 turning completely black. Above me rose those formidable hills which 0:00:56.520 --> 0:00:59.920 I must ascend ere I could obtain relief. I believe 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:03.320 I should have died had not, by accident, discovered a remedy. 0:01:03.800 --> 0:01:05.880 In the second week of my illness, one of our 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:08.679 party found strewn along a foot track, a quantity of 0:01:08.720 --> 0:01:11.360 beans which sprouted from the ground and were in leaf. 0:01:11.800 --> 0:01:15.039 Someone had probably dropped them. He gathered a quantity and 0:01:15.120 --> 0:01:17.720 I had them boiled and lived entirely on them for 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:20.560 several days at the same time using a decoction of 0:01:20.600 --> 0:01:24.560 the bark of a spruce tree. These seemed to operate magically, 0:01:24.920 --> 0:01:27.160 and in a week I found myself able to walk, 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:30.959 and with two companions, walked into Coloma. There living principally 0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:34.119 upon a vegetable diet, which I procured by paying three 0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:37.480 dollars per pound for potatoes. In a very short time 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:38.720 I recovered. 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:15.560 Wow, hi, Hi, I'm Aaron Welsh. 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:17.120 And I'm Erin allman Updyke, and. 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:22.160 You're listening to this podcast will kill you. So that 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:26.240 was some scurvy, some scurves that was really fun. And 0:02:26.320 --> 0:02:30.160 also three dollars a pound for potato. 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:32.240 I don't even think I pay that much today. 0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:34.119 You don't in an eighteen forty eight. 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:36.639 That's like gotta be like what one hundred dollars today? 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:42.160 I mean easily a thousand with inflation plus all the gold. 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:44.160 But also magical potatoes. 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:48.279 That yeah, truly truly, and we'll find out why. 0:02:48.160 --> 0:02:49.280 Soon so shortly. 0:02:49.760 --> 0:02:53.320 So today's episode we're going to be talking about scurvy. 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:55.160 Yeah, I'm excited. 0:02:55.320 --> 0:02:56.240 I'm really excited. 0:02:56.320 --> 0:03:00.560 This is our first real departure on our own from 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:04.000 infectious disease. We've done crossovers where we talked about things 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:07.280 other than infectious disease, but this is our first solo 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:09.600 journey down a non infectious route. 0:03:09.680 --> 0:03:11.720 Yeah, I'm pretty excited about it. I think it's going 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:12.480 to be great. 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:13.200 I think so too. 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:14.600 Actually, I know it's going to be great. 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:15.120 Oh good. 0:03:15.360 --> 0:03:19.400 Yeah, So we're going to cover the biology, the history, 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:22.640 and the current status question mark, question mark, question mark 0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:27.040 of scurvy. But before we do any of that, it's 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:33.239 quarantiney time. Oh yeah, what are we drinking today? 0:03:33.320 --> 0:03:41.280 We're drinking the vitamin Sea Legs. I forgot it and 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:43.600 then I remembered it and was overjoyed by the name. 0:03:43.800 --> 0:03:47.640 Yeah. Yeah, Basically, it's a bunch of different citrus juices 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:51.880 of your choosing, yep, vodka because it's made from potatoes exactly, 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:56.480 and so yeah, it's great. 0:03:56.840 --> 0:04:00.440 As always, we'll post the recipe on our Facebook, Twitter, 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:04.200 and Instagram, which you can find us there. 0:04:05.240 --> 0:04:07.640 So we've got our quarantini, but don't worry because we're 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:10.560 also going to be providing a recipe. 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:12.360 For our plus C burritas. 0:04:13.400 --> 0:04:14.440 I still like that name. 0:04:14.560 --> 0:04:18.040 It's a fine name. Anyways. That's our non alcoholic version 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:22.320 of our quarantinies, and those will also be on our 0:04:22.400 --> 0:04:23.039 social media. 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:27.960 Okay, so my drink's in my hand mine too. I 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:33.360 am preventing myself from getting scurvy with this delicious cocktail. Yeah, 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:36.039 but I want to know what the heck how is 0:04:36.080 --> 0:04:39.480 this actually preventing me from getting scurvy? And what exactly 0:04:39.640 --> 0:04:41.839 is the beast of the disease. 0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:43.400 I can't wait to tell you. 0:04:46.520 --> 0:04:49.240 When was the last time you ate a nourishing breakfast 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:50.440 that you felt good about. 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:54.159 If you're looking to completely transform your breakfast, check out 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:55.080 Daily Harvest. 0:04:55.480 --> 0:04:58.799 So one of my favorites is the Chickpea star cup. 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:01.880 It was taste and full of fun flavors. 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:04.839 That sounds good. I haven't tried that one. I've been 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:07.440 loving all of the breakfast smoothies though. 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Don't worry, 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:41.200 We're gonna get into more detail than that. Okay, So 0:06:41.279 --> 0:06:44.120 the first thing that I want to say, and this 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:47.360 is because I don't want for people to feel silly 0:06:47.440 --> 0:06:49.520 if they don't know this, because I wasn't sure that 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:52.080 I knew the actual answer to this, And that is 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:56.839 what the definition of a vitamin is. Like, I think 0:06:56.880 --> 0:06:58.960 I kind of knew, but I think having a good 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:01.839 definition is a good place to start. So, a vitamin 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:06.200 is essentially an organic compound that we cannot make ourselves, 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:08.920 and therefore we have to get it from our diet. 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:16.320 So unlike most animals, actually humans cannot synthesize their own 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:20.440 vitamin C. Did you know that most other animals in 0:07:20.480 --> 0:07:24.440 the world make their own vitamin C? That they don't 0:07:24.480 --> 0:07:27.240 have to eat oranges, They don't have to worry about it. 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:32.640 They just make their own from sugar glucose. The only 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:37.080 animals that don't make their own vitamin C are primates, 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:39.720 except for the lemurs who are special and still make 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:44.760 their own. Guinea pigs and cabybaras and some bats and 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:47.920 some birds and that's it. Everything else. Your dog, you 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:50.360 don't have to share your oranges with them. Yeah, they 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:53.040 make it themselves. That is so cool. Yeah, and we 0:07:53.200 --> 0:07:56.040 just lost that ability And so thanks A lot evolution. 0:07:56.520 --> 0:08:00.080 Now we're dependent on oranges. 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:02.760 Thanks evolution A way to go. 0:08:03.760 --> 0:08:07.360 So the fancy scientific name for vitamin C is a 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:10.840 scorbic acid. Okay, we call it vitamin C because again 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:13.880 it's a necessary part of our diet, so that makes 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:17.880 it a vitamin. So the question is what does vitamin 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:21.120 C do and why is it something that's so important? 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:23.600 How can it end up causing a disease as gnarly 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:24.360 as scurvy. 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:26.000 That's why I'm sitting here. 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:30.800 Okay, it turns out the vitamin C actually does quite 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:34.520 a lot of things. And because I'm not a biochemist 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:37.559 and this isn't a biochemistry podcast, I'm not going to 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:40.240 get too I'm not going to get too in depth 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:44.040 on exactly the mechanisms of what it does. But the 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:47.720 most important thing that it does and the way that 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:50.480 you get most of the symptoms of scurvy are its 0:08:50.520 --> 0:08:56.800 effects on collagen. So collagen is this protein that makes 0:08:56.880 --> 0:09:01.200 up almost everything in your bodies. So collagen makes up 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:07.040 your skin, your tendons. It's the bottom layer in between 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:12.560 all of your epithelial cells. So like in your bladder, 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:17.000 there's collagen like lining the entire thing. It forms your bones, 0:09:17.360 --> 0:09:21.960 it's in your eyes, it's in your hair, Like everything 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:26.280 in your body is in some way made up of collagen. Okay, 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:33.240 so it's a really really important protein, must be. And 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:37.320 it's a protein that's made of three different strands. So 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:40.880 it's three single proteins that have to twist together into 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:42.600 this triple helix. 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:43.480 Like a pull and peel twizzler. 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:47.880 Yes, like a pull and peel twizzler in order to 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:51.600 be strong, right, So you need like strong skin, strong. 0:09:51.320 --> 0:09:52.839 Bones, strong twizzlers. 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:56.680 So what happens when you have a vitamin C. So 0:09:56.720 --> 0:10:01.640 what vitamin C does is it allows for that folding, 0:10:01.760 --> 0:10:05.080 for that twisting to happen, and for the bonds between 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:08.440 those three strands of protein to be really strong. So 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:12.200 without vitamin C, you can still make the strands of 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:15.520 protein that make up collagen, but they can't bind together 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:17.120 in the right way, so they're weak. 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:21.360 I think everyone needs to go out buy a pack 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:24.720 of pull on peel twizzlers and try to pull apart 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:28.160 a single strand versus an entire rolled twizzlers. 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:32.320 Oh my god, that's a great idea. Yeah, it's excellent. 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:34.040 That shows collagen. 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:37.480 Collagen boom boom, Oh my gosh, Aaron, way to go 0:10:37.679 --> 0:10:44.000 right now, biochemistry outreach. Oh yes, so yeah, So that's 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:48.840 essentially the biggest, most important role of vitamin C in 0:10:48.880 --> 0:10:51.000 your body that we know about, Like we know all 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:53.120 of the details of this, and so when you have 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:56.240 a lack of vitamin C and you can't make strong collagen, 0:10:56.800 --> 0:11:02.400 things in your body literally start to fall apart. So 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:06.319 let's walk through kind of the progression of how this happens. 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:10.440 So another thing that's important about vitamin C is that 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:14.680 it's water soluble, which means that when you ingest it, 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:17.560 you can absorb a lot of it, most of it, 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:20.040 some of it, but you can't hold on to it 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:23.480 in your body for very long. It doesn't store in 0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:26.040 your fat tissues the way that some other vitamins do, 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:29.439 So you pee out any excess vitamin C that you have, 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:32.800 which means that you have to continually eat it, Like 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:34.720 you have to eat vitamin C every day. You're not 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:36.600 going to be able to like store up a whole 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:41.440 bunch like something like vitamin B twelve you can have 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:43.679 like huge stores of that in your body. So it 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:46.200 could take a really, really really long time of being 0:11:46.200 --> 0:11:48.959 deficient in something like B twelve before you actually see 0:11:48.960 --> 0:11:52.440 any symptoms. But with vitamin C, even just about a 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:55.520 month of having little to no vitamin C basically less 0:11:55.559 --> 0:11:58.440 than ten milligrams a day in your diet will lead 0:11:58.480 --> 0:12:01.920 to symptoms of scurvy. It'll deplete your stores and then 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:05.920 you'll just be running on nothing. So here's what starts 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:09.760 to happen. In about a month of no vitamin C. 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:14.560 You'll start to feel really tired. You'll get lethargic, and 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:19.360 if you're, for example, a sailor out on the rough seas, 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:22.760 you won't be able to do things like howl in 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:28.360 that jib or swab the deck thank you. That's what 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:30.360 I was trying to do, and I can't remember the 0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:30.920 words word. 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:32.040 I saw the motion, thank you. 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:36.520 Yeah, your captain will be like, swab the deck and 0:12:36.559 --> 0:12:39.840 you'll be like, ugh, but I'm so tired, my muscle's hurt, 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:41.800 and you just won't want to and they'll probably throw 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:44.079 you overboard and you'll die that way. But if you don't, 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:49.120 then you'll just keep getting worse. You'll probably start to 0:12:49.160 --> 0:12:52.000 notice a rash, especially on your legs. 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:54.080 Hence the name of our quarantini. 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:58.720 Yeah, vitamin sea legs. So you'll notice this rash and 0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:03.760 it'll probably look like little red or purple spots or splotches, 0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:08.320 and then those splotches might get bigger and bigger until 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:11.440 your whole leg looks like you just went on a 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:15.520 terrible snowboarding accident. And it's like, no, have you never 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:16.239 been snowboarding? 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:20.160 Because sick reference bruh. 0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:23.640 I'm just saying, you fall a lot, and then you 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:25.839 end up with these bruises that are like the size 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:28.720 of your entire butt cheek, but like you know where 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:31.040 that came from, right, because you fell a lot. But 0:13:31.040 --> 0:13:33.840 with scurvy, you just wake up with these giant bruises 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:36.120 and you're like, I didn't even fall, I haven't moved 0:13:36.160 --> 0:13:37.000 out of bed. 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:39.480 And snowboarded in my dreams. 0:13:39.640 --> 0:13:45.320 Oh did you get bruises? Anyways, you'll have these giant bruises, 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:50.160 et cetera. Your joints will start to hurt. Do you 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:53.880 want to know why? Of course, your muscles are breaking 0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:58.200 down and bleeding into the spaces of your joints, and 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:01.480 all those purple spots that you're seeing, that's tiny blood 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:05.680 vessels just breaking and leaking blood into underneath your skin. 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:08.240 Is it because they can't handle the pressure of like 0:14:08.280 --> 0:14:10.319 the blood flow, and the collagen is so weak. 0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:13.480 Yeah, exactly, because you can't make any new collagen, and 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:16.400 so collagen literally lines all of your blood vessels, Like 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:19.560 the bottom of the cells of your blood vessels are 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:25.000 made of collagen, and so yeah, there's just collagen lining 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:27.360 layers and layers of your blood vessel. So when that 0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:31.840 collagen becomes weak, then it just starts to burst and break. 0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:34.840 Leaky pipe leaky pipes. 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:39.400 And then your joints are hurting, your muscles are tired, 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:42.840 you're bleeding under your skin, and then you might go 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:46.920 to take a bite of I don't know, that stale 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:49.240 bread or something that you've been eating for some reason, 0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:53.720 and your tooth might fall out because your teeth are 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:56.720 held into your gums, and your gums are full of collagen, 0:14:57.040 --> 0:15:00.960 and your gums collagen is broken down, so they're bleeding. 0:15:01.040 --> 0:15:03.680 Your gums are bleeding absolutely everywhere. 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:04.479 It's horrifying. 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:06.840 Yeah, bleeding gums is one of the sort of hallmark 0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:13.520 signs of scurvy. So it's not really a great way 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:14.080 to go. 0:15:15.200 --> 0:15:17.680 Are any of the diseases we've talked about a great 0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:22.520 way to go? Would you say no, really, okay, just checking. 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:26.160 Yeah, I mean that's pretty much what servy is. That's 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:29.840 pretty much how it happens. You can't make collagen, all 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:31.880 of the collagen in your body starts to break down 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:36.880 and you bleed out. You can really fun times if 0:15:36.880 --> 0:15:42.480 you start to bleed into the sheaths that surround your nerves. 0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:45.840 So your nerves are they're all they travel and your 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:49.280 body sort of bundled together. A nerve is a bundle 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:53.360 of a whole bunch of like individual nerve cells, and 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:56.880 they're usually surrounded by these sheaths. And if your blood 0:15:56.920 --> 0:15:58.960 vessels start to leak all over the place and leak 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:01.760 into those sheaths, you can compress the nerves and end 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:06.120 up with paralysis and also a lot of pain because 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:11.280 you're compressing these nerve fibers. So that's fun. 0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:15.360 So you die by bleeding out basically. 0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:16.880 That's one of the ways. Yeah, that's one of the 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:19.200 common ways that you can die is just by bleeding out. 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:22.440 You Also, it's very common to die from secondary infection 0:16:23.000 --> 0:16:27.240 because vitamin C is also important in your immune system, 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:31.480 and also collagen is just important in helping like all 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:34.640 of your cells work properly, and so you can die 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:37.400 by secondary infection because your body just can't fight anything 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:42.440 off because it's just trying to keep you alive and 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:48.760 doing a poor job of it. So yeah, I mean 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:51.720 that's scurvy. Do you have a question. 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:56.960 I do have a question. You mentioned briefly that vitamin 0:16:57.000 --> 0:17:01.240 C is important in your immune system all of these 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:03.200 and I know for a while there were so many 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:06.480 studies and products that are related to vitamin C and 0:17:06.560 --> 0:17:10.320 your immune system, the emergency packets or whatever, and if 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:13.440 you take vitamin C, your cold will be shorter. What 0:17:13.560 --> 0:17:17.240 is what is the actual verdict? What do clinical trials show? 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:22.320 Great question, excellent question. Here's the thing about vitamin C. 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:29.040 We know a lot about what happens when you do 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:33.000 not have enough vitamin C. So if you have less 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:37.560 than ten milligrams a day, then you will end up 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:40.239 with symptoms of scurvy and you will probably die if 0:17:40.280 --> 0:17:41.800 you don't get access to vitamin. 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:44.360 C for a prolonged period of time, not just a. 0:17:44.400 --> 0:17:48.040 Day exactly, yeah, for a daily basis, for like a month, 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:51.360 couple months, many months. So we know that you need 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:55.880 at least ten that's like the bare minimum. Beyond that, 0:17:56.720 --> 0:18:01.280 there is no evidence that increase amounts of vitamin C 0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:06.199 are beneficial in any way. Okay, so we know that 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:08.560 there's a minimum that you need to have in order 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:12.440 to function normally. There is no evidence that taking things 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:15.919 like emergency have any effect whatsoever on your immune system. 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:18.560 In fact, there's been many studies and meta analyzes that 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:24.600 show there is no additional immune boosting effect whatsoever. Okay, 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:26.840 so it's not going to help you kick that cold faster, 0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:31.360 et cetera. There is evidence that having like relatively low 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:34.720 levels of vitamin C, so maybe you're above that scurvy level, 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:37.200 but you're still kind of low level, it can put 0:18:37.240 --> 0:18:40.479 you at higher risk for diseases like coronary artery disease. 0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:43.680 So it could be beneficial to have like a little 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:48.800 more than absolutely nothing, right, But beyond that, there's no 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:51.960 evidence that having more than say like one hundred and 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:54.639 fifty or two hundred, which is like the equivalent of 0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:59.359 eating a bell pepper a day, it's not any better. 0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:03.200 You don't there's no impact on your overall mortality. 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:03.760 Right. 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:07.439 Yeah, there's not even a standard number for like the 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:10.600 recommended daily value. It totally depends on the country, So 0:19:10.680 --> 0:19:14.600 every country has their own version of the recommended daily amount. 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:18.720 Of vitamin C and it varies. Okay, okay, but yeah, 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:20.800 So that's the best news about scurvy is that it's 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:24.359 totally preventable. And even if you end up with pretty 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:27.840 severe symptoms like gums are bleeding, maybe your bones are 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:30.640 starting to go, you're bleeding into all your joints, all 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:34.119 of that is reversible if you give the person vitamin C. 0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:37.840 So even pretty severe symptoms are totally reversible. So it's 0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:40.359 a very preventable and very treatable disease. 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:42.280 Yeah, that's cool. 0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:48.200 Yeah, so talk to me about how we figured out 0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:51.439 that scurvy was a thing and how we got to 0:19:51.440 --> 0:20:22.840 be where we are today. 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:26.440 When I suggested that we add scurvy to our list 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:30.000 of episodes, I didn't really know what I expected to find. 0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:34.000 The word scurvy reminded me of pirates and sailors and 0:20:34.080 --> 0:20:36.760 oranges and how my mom used to tell me that 0:20:36.840 --> 0:20:39.120 I was going to get scurvy because of how much 0:20:39.200 --> 0:20:43.480 candy I ate, and I would only eat broccoli with 0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:44.520 cheese poured over it. 0:20:44.600 --> 0:20:49.639 Okay, two things, Deb's nurse too, I know. But also, 0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:53.000 broccoli is full of vitamin C, one of the highest vegetables, 0:20:53.040 --> 0:20:56.399 and two a lot of gummy candies have ascorbic acid 0:20:56.640 --> 0:20:57.200 in them. 0:20:57.520 --> 0:21:05.200 What's up, mom? Okay, I should warn you right now though, 0:21:05.840 --> 0:21:10.119 because I mentioned the word pirates doesn't mean that I 0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:14.880 talk a lot about pirates, because I talk about sailors, 0:21:14.960 --> 0:21:17.920 and in that I include pirates, So they're just kind 0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:19.359 of lumped in with all those other ones. 0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:20.040 That's fine. 0:21:20.160 --> 0:21:23.000 Also, pirates didn't really keep the best records as far 0:21:23.040 --> 0:21:23.399 as I know. 0:21:23.520 --> 0:21:27.600 I'm shocked. So they just have maps, right with dots 0:21:27.600 --> 0:21:28.920 and xes. That's all they did. 0:21:29.320 --> 0:21:34.960 Yeah, exactly, X marks the spot, Yeah, where you'll get scurvy. Okay, 0:21:35.080 --> 0:21:37.760 But when I started my research, right off the bat, 0:21:38.200 --> 0:21:40.560 I read a line that gave me an idea of 0:21:40.760 --> 0:21:43.480 just how rich and important scurvy's role in history was. 0:21:44.359 --> 0:21:49.480 Are you ready? Yeah, quote, If we exclude straightforward famine, 0:21:49.720 --> 0:21:53.600 scurvy is probably the nutritional deficiency disease that has caused 0:21:53.640 --> 0:21:58.679 the most suffering in recorded history. WHOA, Yeah, that was 0:21:58.920 --> 0:22:01.840 a little surprising to me. I mean, I knew scurvy 0:22:01.920 --> 0:22:04.040 must have been important, but I didn't have any idea 0:22:04.040 --> 0:22:06.159 of the scope and the scale of the history of 0:22:06.160 --> 0:22:09.520 this disease. So let me tell you tell me. Let's 0:22:09.520 --> 0:22:15.240 start at the beginning. Scurvy is mentioned in several early texts, 0:22:15.359 --> 0:22:20.479 starting as early as fifteen hundred BCE in ancient Egypt. Yes, 0:22:21.240 --> 0:22:25.639 we're finally back in Egypt in the Ebers Ebers papyrus. 0:22:25.680 --> 0:22:28.040 I don't know how you pronounce it. It's a medical papyrus. 0:22:28.920 --> 0:22:32.480 It has also been found in writings from ancient India, Greece, Rome, China, 0:22:32.520 --> 0:22:35.920 et cetera, dating back thousands of years. For the most part, 0:22:35.960 --> 0:22:39.160 these ancient texts focus on the clinical description of scurvy 0:22:39.600 --> 0:22:44.080 and recommendations for treatment, rather than identifying risk factors or 0:22:44.119 --> 0:22:48.080 any sort of pattern in disease incidents. Interesting, but it's 0:22:48.119 --> 0:22:51.080 pretty much a certainty that the disease existed during this 0:22:51.200 --> 0:22:55.760 time due to seasonal scarcity, crop failure, or during times 0:22:55.800 --> 0:23:00.760 of crisis like prolonged sieges during warfare. Interesting that there 0:23:00.760 --> 0:23:04.240 doesn't seem to be a consistent history of the burden 0:23:04.320 --> 0:23:08.119 of scurvy throughout these early years. There could be several 0:23:08.160 --> 0:23:10.960 reasons for this. For instance, if you were in the 0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:13.919 middle of a prolonged siege with little food, you probably 0:23:14.000 --> 0:23:17.640 had multiple nutritional deficiencies, and so scurvy could have had 0:23:17.960 --> 0:23:21.639 different appearances depending on the exact conditions of your setting. 0:23:22.600 --> 0:23:25.560 But what I find really interesting about scurvy in these 0:23:25.640 --> 0:23:29.119 texts is not the apparent gap in its history, but 0:23:29.240 --> 0:23:37.160 that effective treatment for the disease was discovered, lost, rediscovered, debunked, rediscovered, ignored, rediscovered, 0:23:37.160 --> 0:23:37.639 et cetera. 0:23:37.800 --> 0:23:40.119 Oh, my god, for thousands. 0:23:39.520 --> 0:23:44.840 Of years, actually thousands of years. That ancient Egyptian papyrus 0:23:44.840 --> 0:23:48.320 that I mentioned earlier, it recommends a diet of fresh 0:23:48.359 --> 0:23:51.520 fruit and vegetables to cure the condition. Whoa in fifteen 0:23:51.600 --> 0:23:54.760 hundred PCE, thirty five hundred years ago. 0:23:55.119 --> 0:23:55.800 Wow. 0:23:56.480 --> 0:24:00.800