Speaker 1: Welcome to The Hidden Gin, a production of I Heart
Speaker 1: Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Mankey. Hi, and
Speaker 1: welcome to this very special bonus series of The Hidden Gin.
Speaker 1: The interviews. In these episodes, you'll hear me talk to
Speaker 1: people from all walks of life who have had Gin experiences,
Speaker 1: are drawn to the stories of Gin, and draw lessons
Speaker 1: from these stories. You'll hear from artists, scholars, writers, journalists,
Speaker 1: and Gin exorcists, and even from me as I discuss
Speaker 1: how and why this series came about in a very
Speaker 1: personal conversation with my husband. Thanks for listening and enjoy.
Speaker 1: I'm so excited to bring you this guest this week.
Speaker 1: His name is Baxter Jackson, and I found Baxter when
Speaker 1: I was doing my research for the Hidd Engine, well
Speaker 1: before the show ever aired, and he was gracious enough
Speaker 1: even though he was halfway across the world and had
Speaker 1: just begun a vacation. He lives in the Gulf Um,
Speaker 1: the Gulf Regent, and he was vacationing up in Europe
Speaker 1: and uh, but I managed to nail him down and
Speaker 1: we did a transatlantic interview. So I came across Baxter
Speaker 1: when I found a couple of articles he had written
Speaker 1: he's a journalist along with many other things he does,
Speaker 1: UM about things he had witnessed himself in a place
Speaker 1: that's one of the most haunted regions apparently in the world,
Speaker 1: Bahda and oman Um. And I was so fascinated with
Speaker 1: his experience that I really wanted to talk to him,
Speaker 1: and I thought you guys would love to hear from him.
Speaker 1: So I've been holding on this interview for so long,
Speaker 1: and since this week's episode is all about summoning the
Speaker 1: in Um, I thought this was kind of like a
Speaker 1: perfect time to air it. So let me tell you
Speaker 1: a little bit about Baxter. Baxter Jackson is a writing
Speaker 1: instructor at a university in the desert oasis of Ian
Speaker 1: in the United Arab Emirates. While living in the Middle
Speaker 1: East for the past thirteen years, including stints in Egypt,
Speaker 1: Ohman and again the ui E, he has been crafting
Speaker 1: unique cultural interest stories about his experiences for travel websites
Speaker 1: such as Lonely Planet, the Metador Network, and local publications
Speaker 1: such as Outdoor U A E. You can find Baxter
Speaker 1: on YouTube and Instagram. Again, It's Baxter Jackson, and well,
Speaker 1: come and join me as I speak to Baxter. It's
Speaker 1: a great conversation. Hi Baxter, thanks for joining me on
Speaker 1: the show this week and my pleasure. Happy to be here. Um. So,
Speaker 1: you know, I want to start off by talking just
Speaker 1: about I've told our listeners a little bit about your
Speaker 1: work in journalism and specifically kind of get the work
Speaker 1: you've done in the Middle East. Can you tell us
Speaker 1: about your body of work and how you ended up
Speaker 1: doing that? Well, I was I just happened to get
Speaker 1: an opportunity to teach at the American University in Cairo,
Speaker 1: and when I was there, that was sort of my
Speaker 1: introduction to the Middle East. And I've always been interested in, um,
Speaker 1: you know, paranormal phenomenon. I've always had kind of a
Speaker 1: longing to believe that there's something else out there, you know,
Speaker 1: some other side to life that we don't get to see.
Speaker 1: And UM, so that's Um what were you teach something?
Speaker 1: Were you teaching something related to like paranormal phenomenon or no? No, no,
Speaker 1: no at all. I was working at the Writing Centers
Speaker 1: basically like a writing tutor and on a scholarship at UC. So. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but that was my introduction to the to the Middle East.
Speaker 1: And um, but I've never written about, you know, paranormal
Speaker 1: phenomenon before. I was before I happened to find myself
Speaker 1: years later in oman which is where you find Bahala,
Speaker 1: which is like the kind of the epicenter of all
Speaker 1: things that go bump in the night. For as far
Speaker 1: as you know, in the Muslim world goes, they don't
Speaker 1: if anyone, if any Arab has ever heard of oman Um,
Speaker 1: then they know they know about it from Bahlah's like
Speaker 1: Bahlah's you know, whisper kind of Yeah, my my introduction
Speaker 1: to Baha lah and Um and how it is like
Speaker 1: kind of this hotbed of activity. Actually, I didn't know
Speaker 1: this until I found your article and I was so
Speaker 1: excited to read it and it was a fascinating piece
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna link it for everybody so they can
Speaker 1: made it as well. And I have referenced it in
Speaker 1: the series Um and So. But but but that was
Speaker 1: that was like your first introduction to the world of
Speaker 1: gin or I'm assuming it couldn't have been. You must
Speaker 1: have heard about this before that. I mean I heard
Speaker 1: about genies of course. I mean in popular culture in
Speaker 1: the West, you know, we see genies and like Aladdin
Speaker 1: and movies like that, and so yeah, and I dream
Speaker 1: of Genie. I mean I was born in the seventies,
Speaker 1: so I grew up with I dream a Genie. But
Speaker 1: I never thought like, Okay, this is the real thing
Speaker 1: or not, you know, I mean I just thought it
Speaker 1: was like one of these you know, popular myths or whatever.
Speaker 1: So at what point did you realize that there are
Speaker 1: people who think this is a real thing? Was it?
Speaker 1: It was it during that story, no matter, was it
Speaker 1: before that? Like, was there any other interaction for well, no,
Speaker 1: I mean I've had I had a couple of experiences
Speaker 1: and um, when I was living in Cairo that made
Speaker 1: me realize that you know that most Muslims consider Jen
Speaker 1: to be, you know, just as real as God or
Speaker 1: the prophet Muhammad or any other you know, part of
Speaker 1: anything that's send the Koran. Did they take it mostly
Speaker 1: mostly it's taken literally, you know, and a lot of people, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, I started to hear stories about Gin or
Speaker 1: like weird things that would happen and people would say
Speaker 1: it's a gin you know, and um, but you know,
Speaker 1: for me, it was just kind of like, okay, it's
Speaker 1: like a grimlin did it, you know, like or something
Speaker 1: like that. You know in the West, they've experienced something
Speaker 1: that can't explain, So I'm just kind of projecting onto it. Yeah, exactly, yes, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: so tell me. Okay, the month story starts off with
Speaker 1: you kind of waiting for a woman who's going to
Speaker 1: be joining you to get exercise basically, and so there's
Speaker 1: a story before that, like how did you how did
Speaker 1: she hear view, how did you connect with her? And
Speaker 1: how did you why did you decide to like oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: this is something I totally want to be part of. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's um. I've written a story about Mualm Salem. She
Speaker 1: is like the most famous exorcist in bah Blah, and
Speaker 1: I was I was living in ns Woman, which is
Speaker 1: about maybe four kilometers away, and so I've written a
Speaker 1: story about him, and she saw it online and then
Speaker 1: she wanted to and she turns out she actually was
Speaker 1: possessed by a gender had been possessed by jen for
Speaker 1: for many years. And she had actually gone to chargea
Speaker 1: before to meet with a medium or a woman a
Speaker 1: Syrian woman there who was who could sort of like
Speaker 1: soothsayer or like she you know, sort of a gypsy
Speaker 1: type where she could predict your future. See what's wrong
Speaker 1: with you, and you can't tell give you a diagnosis.
Speaker 1: And she was the one who confirmed her suspicion that
Speaker 1: she was actually possessed by gin and and then she was.
Speaker 1: Then she went to see Sheik and Sharjan and that
Speaker 1: helped for a little while, but the problem persisted. So
Speaker 1: she this woman wasn't like from the region, right, like
Speaker 1: she flew from the other side of the world. She's
Speaker 1: from Rhode Island actually, but living in Boston. And her only,
Speaker 1: her only connection to the Middle East was I mean,
Speaker 1: she has Middle Eastern friends that she made because she's
Speaker 1: a she was tutoring some some students studying there in
Speaker 1: Boston who happened to have, you know, Middle Eastern background,
Speaker 1: and so that was that was her only connection. She'd
Speaker 1: she'd been to like Duban, and she'd I think she'd
Speaker 1: been took a few other different places in the Middle
Speaker 1: East a few times, and had some kind of like
Speaker 1: import export business, you know, she would get things that
Speaker 1: people needed in different parts of the world. But other
Speaker 1: than that, like, no, no Middle Eastern background whatsoever. Like
Speaker 1: she wasn't Mustlim her son and she wasn't Muslim, no, no,
Speaker 1: not even did she talk to you about what those
Speaker 1: problems look like. I mean, like she's traveling across the
Speaker 1: world to to get help for her issues. What were
Speaker 1: what was she experiencing? Yeah, yeah, she said that she
Speaker 1: would have like these night terrors, like she would just
Speaker 1: wake up and like you know, in a sweat, and
Speaker 1: she was she felt like someone was in the room
Speaker 1: with her, and like and then when she did feel
Speaker 1: that present, she felt like someone was pushing down on
Speaker 1: her chest. She had like a normally heavy minstrual cycle. Um,
Speaker 1: one of her one of her her I think it
Speaker 1: was a left or I can remember which I was,
Speaker 1: but clouded over. And she went to see a doctor
Speaker 1: and that didn't like you know, in traditional Western doctor
Speaker 1: and nothing, nothing seemed to work, and she's you know,
Speaker 1: and then she began to become like increasingly paranoid, and um,
Speaker 1: you know, she wasn't getting sleep, and it was just
Speaker 1: she felt like her life without a control, you know,
Speaker 1: And so she was she was desperate enough to you know,
Speaker 1: start doing research and and then she ran across the
Speaker 1: article that I had written for out Door about about
Speaker 1: this guy and while salom and she contacted me and
Speaker 1: she said, you know, I'm an American. I live in
Speaker 1: Boston and I have a gym problem. But I'm not crazy,
Speaker 1: you know. And then of course my first thought was
Speaker 1: she must be. But so I thought, you know, um,
Speaker 1: I'm open to new experiences, and I've already met with
Speaker 1: him once and it would really be no problem. I
Speaker 1: would I would go to Moscot all the time from
Speaker 1: as well anyways for the weekend skateboarding, hang out with
Speaker 1: my friends. So you know, it was just like, no
Speaker 1: sweat off my back. So I thought, you know, why not,
Speaker 1: I'll just I'll meet her and see what her story
Speaker 1: is and put her in contact with this guy, and
Speaker 1: let's see what happens. So, okay, can we talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about how the first piece came about? It
Speaker 1: wasn't just that you moved to Amana you heard about
Speaker 1: him or like how did how how did that happen? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Well I heard about him from my from my students.
Speaker 1: Well I heard about Bahala from my students, you know,
Speaker 1: like they wouldn't even want to haunt town type of right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so you just just I they're so paranoid about
Speaker 1: they won't even they don't like they're not comfortable talking
Speaker 1: about Jen at all. You know, like the as soon
Speaker 1: as you say jin and like this milla, you know,
Speaker 1: and then they you know, they wanted the jim to
Speaker 1: go away, if that's how you get a jim to
Speaker 1: go away to say this. But anyways, they think it's
Speaker 1: like bad karma or just it's like courting, courting bad
Speaker 1: luck or ill fortunate to even talk about Jen's But anyways,
Speaker 1: I learned about it um him, or about Bahhala in general,
Speaker 1: you know, the reputation Bahhla from from my students. But
Speaker 1: then um, one of my colleagues, she's Omani, and you know,
Speaker 1: I asked her like, do you know anyone who actually
Speaker 1: so I asked her about it about you know, do
Speaker 1: you know anyone who does this kind of thing? Because
Speaker 1: I was really curious to see what, you know, how
Speaker 1: it might differ from like the exorcistem I've seen in
Speaker 1: movies and things like that, you know, let's the Islamic
Speaker 1: slant on it, you know. And um, so, yeah, she happened.
Speaker 1: She did a little poking around and she put me
Speaker 1: in contact with him, and yeah, what was that meaning?
Speaker 1: Like it was kind of weird? Uh, he was kind
Speaker 1: of I mean, he was sort of enigmatic. I mean
Speaker 1: he was like, uh, my Arabic wasn't that good at
Speaker 1: that point, so I had to have translated with me.
Speaker 1: But um, he was. He was open enough to meet
Speaker 1: with us and you know, um, you know, suffer through
Speaker 1: my questions and uh so yeah he was. He was
Speaker 1: a nice guy. And he didn't mean he didn't seem
Speaker 1: like like a magician or like any kind of I mean,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have noticed him like walking down the street.
Speaker 1: He didn't like stand out and he just seemed like
Speaker 1: typical old old money dude. You know. He was he'd
Speaker 1: been in the army and he had seen all the
Speaker 1: changes of the moon had gone through, like when you know,
Speaker 1: slavery was still in effect there and like the sixties
Speaker 1: and he saw that the changes and um, you know
Speaker 1: how there was like nothing there but at that point
Speaker 1: and like in the sixties and even not until the
Speaker 1: seventies when Sultonica Booze took her really start to move
Speaker 1: from backwater into like uh, you know, first world nation.
Speaker 1: So he's seen all that, so it's pretty why is
Speaker 1: an interesting guy? So they were when you met him.
Speaker 1: And look, I've had I've met some folks who who
Speaker 1: claimed to you know, be involved this kind of stuff
Speaker 1: and and some of them right off the bat, You're like,
Speaker 1: this guy, this person is like it's total connor, Like,
Speaker 1: did you get any sense of that or did he
Speaker 1: seem like he was really sincere? No. I think he
Speaker 1: genuinely believes in what he's doing, and I think he's
Speaker 1: he's he claims to have helped over five thousand people
Speaker 1: and you know, during his whole tenure as a as
Speaker 1: a molem to get rid of Gin and so I mean,
Speaker 1: and I've heard lots of stories from other people about him,
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean he seemed like the real deal.
Speaker 1: So you travel he lives in Bahlad, right m hm.
Speaker 1: And as you traveled to the most haunted place in
Speaker 1: the I guess in the Middle East. And how is that?
Speaker 1: I mean, did you get a set like what's that
Speaker 1: place like? Well, um, it looks like a typical little
Speaker 1: sleepy like mountain Hamlet, you know. I mean, it's just
Speaker 1: it's in it's in the western the western Hajjar Mountains,
Speaker 1: and they're pretty rugged and desolate, and it looks a
Speaker 1: lot like Mars. Actually, if she's never been to Aman,
Speaker 1: it looks like that's they could film. They could film
Speaker 1: Mars there easily or a movie about Mars there, you know. Um,
Speaker 1: and it's just a it's just a little town. There's
Speaker 1: a stoop and um. You know, it's not nothing really
Speaker 1: remarkable about it except that there is a castle there.
Speaker 1: And that castle is like kind of the one of
Speaker 1: the hot spots for paranormal activity in in Bahala because
Speaker 1: they've been trying to restore since like the nineties. And
Speaker 1: every time they go in and they do something, then
Speaker 1: they come back the next day and it's been undone
Speaker 1: and a lot of people say, well, it's the gin,
Speaker 1: you know. They don't. They don't like their people coming
Speaker 1: in and messing with the place where they're they're haunting.
Speaker 1: So that's why it's taken so long for it to
Speaker 1: finally open. I think it was open just a couple
Speaker 1: of years ago. Finally. I guess the gym like the
Speaker 1: ruins ruined. They don't renovation. Yeah, I mean they need
Speaker 1: the atmosphere. I guess did you did you spend much
Speaker 1: time or do you say the night where you like
Speaker 1: trying to like see if you could. Unfortunately you can't
Speaker 1: do that. I would have loved to do that with
Speaker 1: like a school Scooby doo kind of thing, I know,
Speaker 1: to spend the night in the castle I mean or
Speaker 1: in bah blad cell I mean either yeah, but the
Speaker 1: cattle or not. No, I didn't do that, and I
Speaker 1: never spent the night in Blahlabah. I didn wander around
Speaker 1: the soup, and the soup has an interesting um. There's
Speaker 1: a what my students called the Leading tree. So supposedly
Speaker 1: there was there were some people that were someone who's
Speaker 1: who was suspected of practicing witchcraft, I think, and that
Speaker 1: it was sometimes between the twelve and the six fourteenth
Speaker 1: century and anyway, so they executed a few people who
Speaker 1: are who are who they've suspected to be witches there
Speaker 1: and on this particular tree. And so this this true.
Speaker 1: My students told me that if you just touch this tree,
Speaker 1: you'll like you'll be cursed and you'll all all these
Speaker 1: horrible things will happen to you. And so I had
Speaker 1: to go see it, of course, and I had to
Speaker 1: touch it. And so I'm still, yes, yes, you know,
Speaker 1: I wanted to see something, you know, like that. I've
Speaker 1: always had a longing in for, you know, for there
Speaker 1: to be something else, you know besides this this. You know,
Speaker 1: there's got to be something else out there. We'll be
Speaker 1: right back after the short break. When you say that
Speaker 1: you have always felt like there's something out there, what
Speaker 1: what is like kind of like the framework of your
Speaker 1: beliefs is it? Is it kind of like in a
Speaker 1: religious sense, or is it kind of like in a
Speaker 1: supernatural sense, or is it just like your childhood stories
Speaker 1: of stuck with you? What do you think is up there?
Speaker 1: I have no idea, you know, really, I just but
Speaker 1: I haven't feeling that there means from the things that
Speaker 1: I've seen and and other stories and the stories that
Speaker 1: I've been told, you know, I'd like to think that
Speaker 1: there's some something else out out there, you know, some
Speaker 1: kind of power greater than myself, you know that's controlling
Speaker 1: and uh controlling, pulling the strings, you know, like in
Speaker 1: the in the Puppet Show or something. But uh, but yeah,
Speaker 1: what um. When I was in my twenties, I was
Speaker 1: really into Carlos Casta Meta and so I read a
Speaker 1: lot of his stuff, and I went to Mexico and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, followed some of the things that he does
Speaker 1: in his books to try to have us to try
Speaker 1: to recreate you know, his experiences, um um. And you know,
Speaker 1: I've always just been a fan of of those kind
Speaker 1: of those kind of stories, you know, because I think
Speaker 1: it's some kind of human um longing to for there
Speaker 1: to be something else besides this world. And and that's
Speaker 1: I think it's really comforting. And any kind of evidence,
Speaker 1: even if it's scary or um, you know, even even
Speaker 1: if you even if you would not like to have
Speaker 1: any kind of face to face encounter with it, it is.
Speaker 1: I think it's reassuring to know that there is something else,
Speaker 1: you know. I think that's why people look to religion
Speaker 1: and they look too, you know, they want to believe
Speaker 1: these kind of stories, because it gives them some sense
Speaker 1: of comfort that you know that the death is not
Speaker 1: the end. It is just you know, a new beginning.
Speaker 1: That's interesting. I never actually thought about that. I mean,
Speaker 1: I I thought about people's belief in the paranormal in
Speaker 1: the sense that, okay, we have to find some way
Speaker 1: to explain things that we can't understand. The unknown itself
Speaker 1: is scary. But I never thought about it um from
Speaker 1: that angle that if we believe in something, even if
Speaker 1: it's something evil, something terrifying, something that we don't want
Speaker 1: to encounter, it means that we're not. It like, there's
Speaker 1: definitely a world greater than us, and there's other things
Speaker 1: and that has its own sense of hope attached to it.
Speaker 1: That's really interesting. Um okay, So I want to talk
Speaker 1: about when when that lady arrived from Boston and you
Speaker 1: received her, and what was your impression and uh what happened?
Speaker 1: Tell us the story. Yeah, well, um, you know, she
Speaker 1: didn't look like she was possessed by Jim. She looked
Speaker 1: a little jet lagged, and she was personable, and you know,
Speaker 1: she seemed like someone I would you know, I could
Speaker 1: connect with her because I think for the same reason
Speaker 1: they I mean, for the same for the reason she
Speaker 1: was there in Oman. She she flew all the way
Speaker 1: just for this and she didn't even stay like she
Speaker 1: just came for that. She did. She she went for
Speaker 1: Rukia for for the exorcism and then and she was
Speaker 1: gone like the next day. So uh so I kind
Speaker 1: of I like those kind of people. I like the
Speaker 1: kind of people that were you know, they take it
Speaker 1: to the they see how far can they can take it,
Speaker 1: you know, And um, she seemed like that kind of lady. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: But so it was me and her and my friend Hemmed.
Speaker 1: He was. He was Um, he's a local guy and
Speaker 1: he had never he'd heard of Wadam Silent but he
Speaker 1: never met him. But he went along as our translator
Speaker 1: and so the local who was he was game to
Speaker 1: go to the most haunted place in the country. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but he's you know how many this kind of a
Speaker 1: westernized guys. He's spent a lot of time with ex
Speaker 1: pats and Kay, he's not your typical money you know,
Speaker 1: he's um. Most of the monies are like really friendly
Speaker 1: and you know, really willing to be like you know,
Speaker 1: typical like a hospitable kind of people. Uh. But he's
Speaker 1: you know, more open minded to you know, these kind
Speaker 1: of things. He actually had a few experiences. He had
Speaker 1: he had one experience before with the Gin. And you know,
Speaker 1: if you if you talked to Um, Yeah, if you
Speaker 1: talk to anyone who's uh, who's in Islam or you know, Muslim,
Speaker 1: and no, almost everyone believes in jin and they almost
Speaker 1: all believe in angels too, But no one, no one
Speaker 1: I've met, has ever had an experience at first an
Speaker 1: experience with an angel. But almost everyone has some kind
Speaker 1: of Gin story. So I don't know what that tells
Speaker 1: you yeah, but that's I think that's a very astute
Speaker 1: observation and what would you come to think of it?
Speaker 1: Although I will say my one of my grandfather's claims
Speaker 1: to have had an encounter with angels in Mecca. But
Speaker 1: that's like one out of every single Muslim I nose,
Speaker 1: so it's very wrong. Wow okay, So so okay, So
Speaker 1: you pick her up and you drive and suddenly there's
Speaker 1: a storm. Well I've been brewing that day. You know.
Speaker 1: It was like at that time of the year, we
Speaker 1: get these winds from the north to Chamalia and sometimes
Speaker 1: it you know, it collides with the um with the
Speaker 1: moisture from the gulf of them on and you know,
Speaker 1: we get these big sandstorms. So yeah, I've been brewing
Speaker 1: that day and and it was it was a pretty
Speaker 1: bad one actually. I mean the visibility was really low
Speaker 1: and I was driving my little keep a count don't
Speaker 1: I was getting battered around the road on the road
Speaker 1: and you know, there's kind of spattered, there's spattering him
Speaker 1: rain here and there, and everyone's driving with their lights
Speaker 1: on and so it's yeah, I was did anything perfect
Speaker 1: like signs to you. I was like, this is like
Speaker 1: a movie, man, this is so cool. This is like,
Speaker 1: you know, this is like can't pick up. We couldn't
Speaker 1: have picked a better day to go to blah bla,
Speaker 1: you know, for the atmosphere. So I was like, you know,
Speaker 1: I was really I was into us as I was
Speaker 1: loving it and I was like eating it up. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So then you get to uh Bam Salem's house and
Speaker 1: tell me what that was, like, what they what happened. Well,
Speaker 1: I wasn't even sure if he was going to be there,
Speaker 1: So there was a little tension and there there because
Speaker 1: you know, because she she flew come all this way,
Speaker 1: and you know, I talked to him like a couple
Speaker 1: of days before, but we hadn't reconfirmed. You know, in
Speaker 1: the in the Middle East, you always have to like,
Speaker 1: you know, okay, you know I'm gonna I'm gonna be
Speaker 1: coming over tomorrow, you know, and then you reconfirmed the
Speaker 1: day of and like when you're about to leave, you
Speaker 1: send a message and then you know you have to
Speaker 1: like this has to be a lot of reassurance of
Speaker 1: people just assume you're not gonna come. So I didn't
Speaker 1: do any of that. I just did kind of like
Speaker 1: the Western thing and like, okay, I'll see in two
Speaker 1: days and you know, I didn't talk to him again. So, um,
Speaker 1: but he's retired, so you know, we're too gonna go.
Speaker 1: He's he's there at this house most of the time.
Speaker 1: So anyways, we got there and and yeah, so I
Speaker 1: introduced it introduced him to this woman from Boston and
Speaker 1: my friend hmmed and and the storm was, um, it was.
Speaker 1: It was kind of strange because the storm was all
Speaker 1: around us at this point, you know, and it was
Speaker 1: but I guess we're like in the eye of the
Speaker 1: storm or something. And so so yeah, that was that
Speaker 1: was a little weird. And there was like this it
Speaker 1: was like this kind of electric electricity in the air,
Speaker 1: I guess from the I don't know how electricity builds,
Speaker 1: but how that works, but there's like these little you know,
Speaker 1: like I guess the static electricity or what it is
Speaker 1: in the in the clouds. So it was an eerie
Speaker 1: kind of atmosphere for you know, a day for an
Speaker 1: exorcistem you know. Um. So yeah, um, and didn't what
Speaker 1: happened well, um, and then we were we came we
Speaker 1: went inside and um, and then the and then the
Speaker 1: electricity went off, not immediately, but at some point you know,
Speaker 1: when we started the When we started the um, we
Speaker 1: were they were going to do the wood, which is
Speaker 1: like when you you know, the ritual cleansing of the
Speaker 1: hands and feet, you know, because it is you know,
Speaker 1: a sacred Islamic ritish and there's a certain protocol to
Speaker 1: be fallen. But so um, but we we just he
Speaker 1: decided to skip that because um, because the electricity went out,
Speaker 1: and you know, there was so yeah, I guess the
Speaker 1: electricity went off because of the storm, you know, And
Speaker 1: so he lit a candle and then there was like this.
Speaker 1: When he lit the candle, it was like this strange
Speaker 1: shadow across the wall. I don't know if it was
Speaker 1: from the candle or and it's like the smell of
Speaker 1: sulfur that it could have been from the matches. I
Speaker 1: don't know, but at all it was like it was
Speaker 1: really weird. And then what did the shadow look like?
Speaker 1: What was what was the shape the shadow? It was
Speaker 1: just like I don't know, if you've ever been up
Speaker 1: for a few days in a row and you start
Speaker 1: to see this, it's kind of it was like that
Speaker 1: it was like one of these shadows that you catch
Speaker 1: like in the in the corner of your out of
Speaker 1: the corner of your eye, and you're not sure if
Speaker 1: you really saw it or not, but it's enough to
Speaker 1: make to give you the creeps, you know, give you
Speaker 1: a you know question, were you the only one to
Speaker 1: see it? Or did anybody see it? Now? We all
Speaker 1: kind of we all like turned our heads and like, okay,
Speaker 1: what the hell was that? You know? So yeah, um,
Speaker 1: so the lights flickering and then uh, maybe it was
Speaker 1: maybe it was some kind of I don't I don't
Speaker 1: know what the sound was, but it was like it
Speaker 1: was like a strange kind of a whispering sound at
Speaker 1: the same time the shadow appeared. And then and then
Speaker 1: at that point that at that point, um, while I'm
Speaker 1: Stylom started to surrect to recite apart from the last
Speaker 1: two chapters of the Koran, which were all about, you know,
Speaker 1: what to do in these kind of situations when someone
Speaker 1: is possessed by a gent so he started to recite that,
Speaker 1: and um, yeah, so that was what's going on with
Speaker 1: the woman who's possessed. So she like lying on the floor.
Speaker 1: She I mean, we exercist. I'm assuming it wasn't that extreme. No,
Speaker 1: she didn't float, unfortunately, but but that was at that
Speaker 1: point I wouldn't have you know, I wouldn't have been surprised,
Speaker 1: So uh yeah, she she lied back down on she
Speaker 1: she lied on the in the middle of the room,
Speaker 1: down on the middle of the room. And then and
Speaker 1: she and he was like reciting the Koran over her,
Speaker 1: and then her looked like that her eyes rolled rolled
Speaker 1: back into her head and she you could see like
Speaker 1: the whites of her eyes only, and and she let
Speaker 1: out to smoan. It was like some kind of like
Speaker 1: I don't know, like a primal scream or something. And
Speaker 1: it was weird. It was like definitely nothing I've ever
Speaker 1: experienced before. You know, did you feel scared in the moment?
Speaker 1: It was like it was so strange that I was
Speaker 1: I felt like frozen, kind of like I don't know
Speaker 1: if I mean, it was it was so weird. I
Speaker 1: was like it was so um like captivating, but the
Speaker 1: captivating it was kind of like like watching a train wreck.
Speaker 1: You know, you can't pull away, you can't pull your
Speaker 1: eyes away, So uh yeah, it was. It was. It
Speaker 1: was Mondo bizarre for sure. And but did you get
Speaker 1: me answer, did you get the sense that what was
Speaker 1: happening in front of you was like real? That's the thing.
Speaker 1: I think that's that's what made me not want to
Speaker 1: look not want to look away, because I wanted to
Speaker 1: see like, Okay, this is this like actually happening. And
Speaker 1: it was like because you know, as he was reciting this, this,
Speaker 1: as they was reciting the Koran this, uh yeah, she
Speaker 1: started to make this the sound and and the you know,
Speaker 1: the whites of her eyes and the storm and it
Speaker 1: was it was it was intense, you know, it was
Speaker 1: like it was really it was heavy. So um so yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I was just I just saw what I saw,
Speaker 1: and I don't I don't know if it was that's
Speaker 1: really what what happened, you know, if it was you know,
Speaker 1: the gin was actually leaving her body, but it seemed
Speaker 1: to me that that's like I think that's what was happening.
Speaker 1: I mean, I can't there's no way I could like
Speaker 1: confirm scientifically, you know, like this is true what happening,
Speaker 1: And it was just my experience and what I saw.
Speaker 1: But but that's also that's also I'm assuming what um
Speaker 1: the exorcist said was happening. And she reported that she
Speaker 1: felt was happening too, that this thing was leaving her body. Yeah. Afterwards,
Speaker 1: she said that she felt like a sense of you know,
Speaker 1: lightness like she I mean, she was and disoriented at first,
Speaker 1: and um, she doesn't remember the point when we were like,
Speaker 1: you know, holding her down because she started convulsing, you know,
Speaker 1: after this primal scream came out, came out of her
Speaker 1: and before she settled down. And at one point I
Speaker 1: remember that a few years ago. So I'm just trying
Speaker 1: to uh, the molem had some holy water and he
Speaker 1: like splashed her with it, and you know, um so
Speaker 1: um so she began and you guys had to hold
Speaker 1: like physically like me and Hammed had to hold her
Speaker 1: her arms down. So she she's like started to like
Speaker 1: thrash about. And I guess this is at this point
Speaker 1: when the you know, the gin was leaving her body
Speaker 1: or whatever it was. You know, maybe it was maybe
Speaker 1: it wasn't a gym. Maybe it was like her repressed
Speaker 1: traumatic memories or I don't know, um, who knows what
Speaker 1: what the gin really is, you know, And maybe it
Speaker 1: was just like a way for the people and a
Speaker 1: long time ago to try to explain this kind of
Speaker 1: like epilepsy or like these other kind of the childhood
Speaker 1: traumas or something you know, like post traumatic stress disorder.
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know what it was, but
Speaker 1: uh something, but something was happening for sure. So how
Speaker 1: long did this exorcism like take place. It wasn't that long. Actually,
Speaker 1: it was like maybe ten and fifteen minutes. I mean
Speaker 1: once it's once I get started. Yeah, it's pretty quick.
Speaker 1: I mean it's quick work to extract a gin from somebody,
Speaker 1: it seems like given what we've seen like in the
Speaker 1: movies and film and stuff. But and how how was
Speaker 1: she afterwards? Yeah, she seemed like she seemed really happy that.
Speaker 1: I mean, she was kind of just warranted at first.
Speaker 1: And um, she really wanted a cigarette afterwards because it was,
Speaker 1: like I AM, pretty intensive experience for her, I guess,
Speaker 1: but she she felt like I think she felt that
Speaker 1: she was it was worth her while to come all
Speaker 1: that way to him on to you, to do the
Speaker 1: research to find me and to go visit this guy.
Speaker 1: And and I'm assuming he charges for his services, right,
Speaker 1: Like how does he make a living? Yeah? Yeah, he does, Um,
Speaker 1: and that's up that's just up to the client. I
Speaker 1: mean I think she gave him like a hundred dollars
Speaker 1: or something like that. Whatever the client wants to give. Yeah,
Speaker 1: just like she didn't. He didn't have like at price
Speaker 1: price list on the door, and so yeah, yeah, so, um,
Speaker 1: your story ends, Your story about her ends kind of
Speaker 1: mysteriously because it seems like later on she feels like,
Speaker 1: actually she is still possessed. Yeah. Um, so you guys,
Speaker 1: basically after she left, you stayed in touch. No, we didn't,
Speaker 1: not for a long time, and then just just a
Speaker 1: couple of I guess it was just last year. I
Speaker 1: started to think about the experience and thought, you know,
Speaker 1: that was that's kind of a crazy story. You know
Speaker 1: why I should I should write that up. And so
Speaker 1: I contact her again just to check up, you know it, saying, hey,
Speaker 1: you know how to go with you did? Did your
Speaker 1: visit to Aman? Did it really help you? And she
Speaker 1: told me that it did for a while, you know
Speaker 1: it did. It definitely brought her some kind of peace.
Speaker 1: But she had to go on and do some further research,
Speaker 1: and she ended up going to Indonesia because there's a
Speaker 1: lot of possessions in Indonesia and there's lots of people
Speaker 1: who do the rukia there and she had to really
Speaker 1: she told me a really crazy story about you know
Speaker 1: that involved blood and maggots and um, and there was
Speaker 1: some kind of nefarious like, um, not everybody in Indonesia
Speaker 1: who does these exorcisms is on the level, so there's
Speaker 1: some some nefarious things going on. And I think she
Speaker 1: encountered one of those, if I remember correctly, she encountered
Speaker 1: one of those guys. She was uh, basically kind of
Speaker 1: doing like a parlor trick to to satisfy his clients.
Speaker 1: And you know with the kind of like what they did.
Speaker 1: And I can't remember when it was popular, but at
Speaker 1: one point in the United States, these seances, the contacting
Speaker 1: the dead was like a really popular fun thing to
Speaker 1: do at parties, you know, and they would bring in
Speaker 1: these mediums and there's a lot of people like that
Speaker 1: and it used to do this, but you know, in
Speaker 1: the Islamic world, um, not just for fun, but you know,
Speaker 1: for profit and for because people would like so fervently
Speaker 1: believe and you know that they're possessed by these gend
Speaker 1: they're willing to go to any length. And then if
Speaker 1: they get these dramatic results and you know there's blood
Speaker 1: and maggots and weird things happening like you see in
Speaker 1: the in the horror films that they have a huge
Speaker 1: horror film industry in Indonesia by the way. But anyway,
Speaker 1: so if you so, if you see these kind of
Speaker 1: things and you feel like you're getting your money's worth
Speaker 1: and you know, and it creates more business for the guy.
Speaker 1: So UM, So that happened to her and then and
Speaker 1: then I think she finally did find someone who's legitimate.
Speaker 1: And I haven't heard from her since and that was
Speaker 1: that was that was last year, the last time I
Speaker 1: heard from her. Um. But she also I think she
Speaker 1: later she went to Malaysia because there's a big um
Speaker 1: because Malaysians Muslim country, and so there's lots of people
Speaker 1: who are possessed there. And then there's the whole Malaysians
Speaker 1: uh slant on how exorcisms are done, and you know
Speaker 1: what that entails. And so I think there's so much,
Speaker 1: there's so much I don't know about it. You know.
Speaker 1: What I experienced was just like a little you know,
Speaker 1: like a little snapshot of like a much bigger picture
Speaker 1: of if you you know, if you're looking into paranormal
Speaker 1: phenomenon in Islamic world, I'm guessing. Um, every kind of
Speaker 1: culture has its own like you know, angle to the
Speaker 1: exorcisms that like resonates with with the locals and makes
Speaker 1: sense given like the context and stuff. And that's also
Speaker 1: something that I thought it would be kind of formulated
Speaker 1: and that makes sense. It's really interesting. So for you, um,
Speaker 1: what have you thought about like and one other things?
Speaker 1: I mean, that's this is not the only stuff you've
Speaker 1: write about. You write about like you your work is
Speaker 1: like about a lot of different like cultural aspects of
Speaker 1: that region. But it's something that you've thought about pursuing
Speaker 1: more in depth, Like is it something you still think
Speaker 1: about or you're just like, wow, that was interesting and
Speaker 1: I'm I'm done. It's it is what it is. No,
Speaker 1: I mean, I would love to go to Indonesia to
Speaker 1: look more into like what's happening there, because I think
Speaker 1: that's a really interesting situation there because of the mix
Speaker 1: of beliefs there. You know, they have before before Islam came,
Speaker 1: there was I mean there was Hinduism, and before Hinduism
Speaker 1: they had the Japanese had their own animistic beliefs and
Speaker 1: those beliefs mixed with the Hinduism, and then they brought
Speaker 1: some of those beliefs with them into Islam. And so
Speaker 1: like this really interesting mix of beliefs and they all
Speaker 1: seem to to co exist fairly peacefully, you know, like
Speaker 1: when there was a riot or something going on. But
Speaker 1: I just they think the mix of that would be
Speaker 1: really interesting to see and I would like to go
Speaker 1: visit some of these Charlottean's, you know, to see just
Speaker 1: try to sort out who's real and who's not, you
Speaker 1: know what anything that would be and I mean the
Speaker 1: fascinating peace to to go, especially with someone who was like,
Speaker 1: you know, truly felt like they were actually affective and
Speaker 1: had it were possessed by Jen, you know, to that
Speaker 1: would I think that would be a pretty moving peace.
Speaker 1: Have you are you do you still living them on? No,
Speaker 1: I'm in the UI, you know, but I mean I
Speaker 1: mean Czech Czech Republic for the summer, but and living
Speaker 1: in the U A un okay, something similar there? Or
Speaker 1: is it? Is it kind of a different culture much
Speaker 1: more like kind of progressive there? Well, um, it's not
Speaker 1: famous for having you know, the there's no ba in
Speaker 1: the UI e but um there there is um some
Speaker 1: degree of you know, the same beliefs there because it
Speaker 1: is and it's you know, Muslim country and so um
Speaker 1: you know, occasionally it comes up when I'm with my students.
Speaker 1: You know, we talked about these these kind of things
Speaker 1: come up, and uh, sometimes we'll talk about gin and
Speaker 1: angels and you know, these these different beliefs and so
Speaker 1: the people but they're believing them too, you know. So
Speaker 1: and most of my students have some kind of story
Speaker 1: that involves the gin. So uh. And then you know
Speaker 1: the first person that the woman from Boston that I helped,
Speaker 1: she went, she went to go see was actually in charge.
Speaker 1: So there's there are people who do exercistems there too. Mhm. Well,
Speaker 1: I I mean I don't know if I'd be able to,
Speaker 1: but I'd love to speak to this lady. And given
Speaker 1: especially the fact that she's kind of traveled the world
Speaker 1: and I mean took I mean that's you know, I
Speaker 1: mean like that's something that you're taking very seriously if
Speaker 1: you're gonna be that committed to addressing this issue. Um,
Speaker 1: so maybe that's a possibility. But um, what are your
Speaker 1: kind of like plans going forward? You have any other
Speaker 1: anything in the pipeline? And where do you write because
Speaker 1: I'd love for our listeners to check out your pieces. Yeah,
Speaker 1: most of my stuff you can find on the Matador Network.
Speaker 1: Just google Baxter Jacks to Matador. The list should pop
Speaker 1: up of most of my pieces that have been for
Speaker 1: them over the years. I'm assuming you're open to other
Speaker 1: people reaching out with their GIN stories. Yeah, I would
Speaker 1: love to hear them for sure. That I mean, I'm
Speaker 1: fascinated by the supernatural and people have had firsthand experiences
Speaker 1: like that. So yeah, well, I'd love it if you
Speaker 1: ever returned to Oman and did like a ghost Hunter's
Speaker 1: type of episode in Bahalla. That would be a lot
Speaker 1: of take some video. Yeah, but I would love to
Speaker 1: do that. It would be cool the Ghostbusters the Oman
Speaker 1: edition exactly. Well, thank you so much. This has been
Speaker 1: really interesting and I guess I just want to end
Speaker 1: with one final kind of question to you, although I
Speaker 1: feel like you've answered it in different ways, um, and
Speaker 1: that is this after everything kind of you you've lived
Speaker 1: in the region what thirteen years now, um, and everything
Speaker 1: you've have experienced firsthand and stories you've heard, like where
Speaker 1: do you got to fall on the spectrum of like
Speaker 1: do you believe jin exists? I don't know, UM, I
Speaker 1: mean I know what I saw, I know what other
Speaker 1: people have experienced. UM. I like to believe I guess.
Speaker 1: I guess you could say that I'm sort of still agnostic.
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know for sure, but you don't
Speaker 1: know that they don't. You don't know that they don't. Right,
Speaker 1: that's right, what about you and your Muslin? Right? I am? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I well, you know, it's one of those things where
Speaker 1: it's like the way I think about it was like
Speaker 1: like if I if I am a person of faith,
Speaker 1: like pretty much of any faith, and I have some
Speaker 1: belief in something supernatural, this is how religion is, and
Speaker 1: so then how do you draw a line where I
Speaker 1: believe this? But that's going too far? Right? Like so
Speaker 1: to me, I, like you said, if you believe in
Speaker 1: angels and you believe in God and you believe in Satan,
Speaker 1: then like why are Jim's way too fantastical? Like that's
Speaker 1: so that the realm of But yeah, let's right, let's
Speaker 1: not go too far. Um, so it's not too far
Speaker 1: from me. I do absolutely believe there are phenomen that
Speaker 1: we don't understand, we might not ever understand. I don't
Speaker 1: think everything that people experience they think is jin is
Speaker 1: always jin. I think there are often times and I've
Speaker 1: seen this myself in my own life where people have
Speaker 1: let's say, deep mental health issues or they are trauma.
Speaker 1: There's so many other things that happened that we might
Speaker 1: interpret that way or it's just easier to deal with
Speaker 1: that way. Maybe. But having said that, I mean when
Speaker 1: I hang out in the castle and at night, probably not.
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to court. I don't want to bring
Speaker 1: them home. And honestly, to be honest, Baxtor, And in
Speaker 1: this interview series, the very first episode I hope you
Speaker 1: get a chance to listen to it will be with
Speaker 1: my husband talking about like our personal experience and so
Speaker 1: I have had some experiences that I'm like, I what
Speaker 1: else could it be? Like a GIN or something anyhow,
Speaker 1: But anyway, thank you again. I really appreciate your time,
Speaker 1: and I'm going to continue to follow your work and
Speaker 1: I help you get to Indonesia and uh and fill
Speaker 1: us all in And you know I would totally read
Speaker 1: that and watch that. Okay, Hey, thanks, thanks a lot
Speaker 1: for for this interview. I hope you enjoyed that conversation
Speaker 1: as much as I did. Now, there are as many
Speaker 1: people in the world with GIN stories as there are GIN,
Speaker 1: So if you have one you'd like to share, make
Speaker 1: sure to email it to me at the Hidden Gin
Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. That's the Hidden Gin. Th H
Speaker 1: E H I D D E N d J I
Speaker 1: n n at gmail dot com. And until next time,
Speaker 1: remember we are not alone. The Hidden Gin is a
Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio and Grimm and Mild from
Speaker 1: Aaron Mankey. The podcast is written and hosted by Robbiah
Speaker 1: Chaudrey and produced by Miranda Hawkins and Trevor Young, with
Speaker 1: executive producers Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. Our
Speaker 1: theme song was created by Patrick Quartets. For more podcasts
Speaker 1: from I Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.