WEBVTT - The Exorcist of Oman 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:06.320 Welcome to The Hidden Gin, a production of I Heart 0:00:06.400 --> 0:00:30.520 Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Mankey. Hi, and 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:34.120 welcome to this very special bonus series of The Hidden Gin. 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:38.159 The interviews. In these episodes, you'll hear me talk to 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:41.479 people from all walks of life who have had Gin experiences, 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:44.800 are drawn to the stories of Gin, and draw lessons 0:00:44.880 --> 0:00:49.480 from these stories. You'll hear from artists, scholars, writers, journalists, 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:53.040 and Gin exorcists, and even from me as I discuss 0:00:53.120 --> 0:00:55.800 how and why this series came about in a very 0:00:55.840 --> 0:01:00.680 personal conversation with my husband. Thanks for listening and enjoy. 0:01:05.200 --> 0:01:08.199 I'm so excited to bring you this guest this week. 0:01:08.520 --> 0:01:11.360 His name is Baxter Jackson, and I found Baxter when 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:15.040 I was doing my research for the Hidd Engine, well 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:18.080 before the show ever aired, and he was gracious enough 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:20.479 even though he was halfway across the world and had 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:24.600 just begun a vacation. He lives in the Gulf Um, 0:01:24.640 --> 0:01:27.000 the Gulf Regent, and he was vacationing up in Europe 0:01:27.520 --> 0:01:30.759 and uh, but I managed to nail him down and 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:34.480 we did a transatlantic interview. So I came across Baxter 0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:36.240 when I found a couple of articles he had written 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:38.720 he's a journalist along with many other things he does, 0:01:39.360 --> 0:01:42.440 UM about things he had witnessed himself in a place 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:45.800 that's one of the most haunted regions apparently in the world, 0:01:46.200 --> 0:01:50.240 Bahda and oman Um. And I was so fascinated with 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:52.200 his experience that I really wanted to talk to him, 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:53.800 and I thought you guys would love to hear from him. 0:01:53.840 --> 0:01:56.160 So I've been holding on this interview for so long, 0:01:57.000 --> 0:01:59.800 and since this week's episode is all about summoning the 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:02.480 in Um, I thought this was kind of like a 0:02:02.520 --> 0:02:04.240 perfect time to air it. So let me tell you 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:07.320 a little bit about Baxter. Baxter Jackson is a writing 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:10.800 instructor at a university in the desert oasis of Ian 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:13.880 in the United Arab Emirates. While living in the Middle 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:16.720 East for the past thirteen years, including stints in Egypt, 0:02:16.760 --> 0:02:19.720 Ohman and again the ui E, he has been crafting 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:23.400 unique cultural interest stories about his experiences for travel websites 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:27.600 such as Lonely Planet, the Metador Network, and local publications 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:31.160 such as Outdoor U A E. You can find Baxter 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:35.880 on YouTube and Instagram. Again, It's Baxter Jackson, and well, 0:02:36.280 --> 0:02:38.480 come and join me as I speak to Baxter. It's 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:43.400 a great conversation. Hi Baxter, thanks for joining me on 0:02:43.440 --> 0:02:48.440 the show this week and my pleasure. Happy to be here. Um. So, 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:50.560 you know, I want to start off by talking just 0:02:50.639 --> 0:02:53.400 about I've told our listeners a little bit about your 0:02:53.440 --> 0:02:56.079 work in journalism and specifically kind of get the work 0:02:56.080 --> 0:02:57.360 you've done in the Middle East. Can you tell us 0:02:57.360 --> 0:02:59.320 about your body of work and how you ended up 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:03.760 doing that? Well, I was I just happened to get 0:03:03.840 --> 0:03:06.639 an opportunity to teach at the American University in Cairo, 0:03:06.760 --> 0:03:08.360 and when I was there, that was sort of my 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:12.520 introduction to the Middle East. And I've always been interested in, um, 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:15.040 you know, paranormal phenomenon. I've always had kind of a 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:18.160 longing to believe that there's something else out there, you know, 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:20.840 some other side to life that we don't get to see. 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:25.720 And UM, so that's Um what were you teach something? 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:29.640 Were you teaching something related to like paranormal phenomenon or no? No, no, 0:03:29.639 --> 0:03:31.480 no at all. I was working at the Writing Centers 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:37.880 basically like a writing tutor and on a scholarship at UC. So. Um. Yeah, 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:40.040 but that was my introduction to the to the Middle East. 0:03:40.080 --> 0:03:43.840 And um, but I've never written about, you know, paranormal 0:03:43.840 --> 0:03:47.640 phenomenon before. I was before I happened to find myself 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:51.880 years later in oman which is where you find Bahala, 0:03:52.000 --> 0:03:54.440 which is like the kind of the epicenter of all 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:57.320 things that go bump in the night. For as far 0:03:57.400 --> 0:03:59.880 as you know, in the Muslim world goes, they don't 0:04:00.320 --> 0:04:04.320 if anyone, if any Arab has ever heard of oman Um, 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:06.760 then they know they know about it from Bahlah's like 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:12.000 Bahlah's you know, whisper kind of Yeah, my my introduction 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:14.760 to Baha lah and Um and how it is like 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:19.440 kind of this hotbed of activity. Actually, I didn't know 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:21.520 this until I found your article and I was so 0:04:21.600 --> 0:04:23.720 excited to read it and it was a fascinating piece 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:25.280 and I'm gonna link it for everybody so they can 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:27.479 made it as well. And I have referenced it in 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:31.520 the series Um and So. But but but that was 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:33.560 that was like your first introduction to the world of 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:36.120 gin or I'm assuming it couldn't have been. You must 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:38.640 have heard about this before that. I mean I heard 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:41.960 about genies of course. I mean in popular culture in 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:44.320 the West, you know, we see genies and like Aladdin 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:47.040 and movies like that, and so yeah, and I dream 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:49.919 of Genie. I mean I was born in the seventies, 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:51.839 so I grew up with I dream a Genie. But 0:04:51.920 --> 0:04:54.480 I never thought like, Okay, this is the real thing 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:56.560 or not, you know, I mean I just thought it 0:04:56.600 --> 0:04:59.839 was like one of these you know, popular myths or whatever. 0:05:02.279 --> 0:05:04.200 So at what point did you realize that there are 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:06.400 people who think this is a real thing? Was it? 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:08.760 It was it during that story, no matter, was it 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:13.320 before that? Like, was there any other interaction for well, no, 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:15.600 I mean I've had I had a couple of experiences 0:05:15.640 --> 0:05:19.240 and um, when I was living in Cairo that made 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:22.760 me realize that you know that most Muslims consider Jen 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:26.200 to be, you know, just as real as God or 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:28.440 the prophet Muhammad or any other you know, part of 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:31.600 anything that's send the Koran. Did they take it mostly 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:36.520 mostly it's taken literally, you know, and a lot of people, uh, 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:38.640 you know, I started to hear stories about Gin or 0:05:38.800 --> 0:05:40.760 like weird things that would happen and people would say 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:43.640 it's a gin you know, and um, but you know, 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:45.320 for me, it was just kind of like, okay, it's 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:47.799 like a grimlin did it, you know, like or something 0:05:47.920 --> 0:05:50.360 like that. You know in the West, they've experienced something 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:55.159 that can't explain, So I'm just kind of projecting onto it. Yeah, exactly, yes, yeah, okay, 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:57.800 so tell me. Okay, the month story starts off with 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:02.800 you kind of waiting for a woman who's going to 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:07.360 be joining you to get exercise basically, and so there's 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:09.240 a story before that, like how did you how did 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:11.840 she hear view, how did you connect with her? And 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:13.599 how did you why did you decide to like oh, yeah, 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:17.279 this is something I totally want to be part of. Well, yeah, 0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:21.320 that's um. I've written a story about Mualm Salem. She 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:25.320 is like the most famous exorcist in bah Blah, and 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:27.360 I was I was living in ns Woman, which is 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:30.760 about maybe four kilometers away, and so I've written a 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:32.920 story about him, and she saw it online and then 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:35.600 she wanted to and she turns out she actually was 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:37.960 possessed by a gender had been possessed by jen for 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:41.240 for many years. And she had actually gone to chargea 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:44.040 before to meet with a medium or a woman a 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:47.280 Syrian woman there who was who could sort of like 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:51.680 soothsayer or like she you know, sort of a gypsy 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:54.160 type where she could predict your future. See what's wrong 0:06:54.240 --> 0:06:57.360 with you, and you can't tell give you a diagnosis. 0:06:57.480 --> 0:07:00.240 And she was the one who confirmed her suspicion that 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:03.400 she was actually possessed by gin and and then she was. 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:07.320 Then she went to see Sheik and Sharjan and that 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:09.960 helped for a little while, but the problem persisted. So 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:12.760 she this woman wasn't like from the region, right, like 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:15.800 she flew from the other side of the world. She's 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:20.080 from Rhode Island actually, but living in Boston. And her only, 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:22.320 her only connection to the Middle East was I mean, 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:25.120 she has Middle Eastern friends that she made because she's 0:07:25.200 --> 0:07:29.960 a she was tutoring some some students studying there in 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:32.640 Boston who happened to have, you know, Middle Eastern background, 0:07:33.360 --> 0:07:36.000 and so that was that was her only connection. She'd 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:39.240 she'd been to like Duban, and she'd I think she'd 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:41.160 been took a few other different places in the Middle 0:07:41.200 --> 0:07:43.520 East a few times, and had some kind of like 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:46.080 import export business, you know, she would get things that 0:07:46.200 --> 0:07:48.360 people needed in different parts of the world. But other 0:07:48.440 --> 0:07:51.720 than that, like, no, no Middle Eastern background whatsoever. Like 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:54.480 she wasn't Mustlim her son and she wasn't Muslim, no, no, 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:57.320 not even did she talk to you about what those 0:07:57.360 --> 0:07:59.480 problems look like. I mean, like she's traveling across the 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:02.400 world to to get help for her issues. What were 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:08.280 what was she experiencing? Yeah, yeah, she said that she 0:08:08.320 --> 0:08:10.760 would have like these night terrors, like she would just 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:13.640 wake up and like you know, in a sweat, and 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:16.280 she was she felt like someone was in the room 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:19.520 with her, and like and then when she did feel 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:21.440 that present, she felt like someone was pushing down on 0:08:21.520 --> 0:08:27.240 her chest. She had like a normally heavy minstrual cycle. Um, 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:29.400 one of her one of her her I think it 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:30.960 was a left or I can remember which I was, 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:33.959 but clouded over. And she went to see a doctor 0:08:34.040 --> 0:08:37.880 and that didn't like you know, in traditional Western doctor 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:41.360 and nothing, nothing seemed to work, and she's you know, 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:46.280 and then she began to become like increasingly paranoid, and um, 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:49.199 you know, she wasn't getting sleep, and it was just 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:52.240 she felt like her life without a control, you know, 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:55.480 And so she was she was desperate enough to you know, 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:58.559 start doing research and and then she ran across the 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:01.960 article that I had written for out Door about about 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:04.480 this guy and while salom and she contacted me and 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:07.280 she said, you know, I'm an American. I live in 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:10.760 Boston and I have a gym problem. But I'm not crazy, 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:12.839 you know. And then of course my first thought was 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:17.360 she must be. But so I thought, you know, um, 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:20.559 I'm open to new experiences, and I've already met with 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:22.480 him once and it would really be no problem. I 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:24.280 would I would go to Moscot all the time from 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:27.599 as well anyways for the weekend skateboarding, hang out with 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:29.559 my friends. So you know, it was just like, no 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:31.480 sweat off my back. So I thought, you know, why not, 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:33.840 I'll just I'll meet her and see what her story 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:36.040 is and put her in contact with this guy, and 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:39.719 let's see what happens. So, okay, can we talk a 0:09:39.760 --> 0:09:41.679 little bit about how the first piece came about? It 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:43.839 wasn't just that you moved to Amana you heard about 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:47.960 him or like how did how how did that happen? Yeah? 0:09:48.120 --> 0:09:50.440 Well I heard about him from my from my students. 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:53.319 Well I heard about Bahala from my students, you know, 0:09:53.960 --> 0:09:57.680 like they wouldn't even want to haunt town type of right, Yeah, 0:09:57.720 --> 0:10:02.400 and so you just just I they're so paranoid about 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:05.520 they won't even they don't like they're not comfortable talking 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:07.600 about Jen at all. You know, like the as soon 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:09.599 as you say jin and like this milla, you know, 0:10:09.679 --> 0:10:11.480 and then they you know, they wanted the jim to 0:10:11.520 --> 0:10:13.599 go away, if that's how you get a jim to 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:16.800 go away to say this. But anyways, they think it's 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:21.040 like bad karma or just it's like courting, courting bad 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:24.640 luck or ill fortunate to even talk about Jen's But anyways, 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:29.520 I learned about it um him, or about Bahhala in general, 0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:32.920 you know, the reputation Bahhla from from my students. But 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:37.199 then um, one of my colleagues, she's Omani, and you know, 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:39.040 I asked her like, do you know anyone who actually 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:41.160 so I asked her about it about you know, do 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:42.959 you know anyone who does this kind of thing? Because 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:45.240 I was really curious to see what, you know, how 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:47.920 it might differ from like the exorcistem I've seen in 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:50.520 movies and things like that, you know, let's the Islamic 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:55.640 slant on it, you know. And um, so, yeah, she happened. 0:10:55.720 --> 0:10:58.640 She did a little poking around and she put me 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:02.800 in contact with him, and yeah, what was that meaning? 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:09.920 Like it was kind of weird? Uh, he was kind 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:12.160 of I mean, he was sort of enigmatic. I mean 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:15.120 he was like, uh, my Arabic wasn't that good at 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:17.120 that point, so I had to have translated with me. 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:21.160 But um, he was. He was open enough to meet 0:11:21.200 --> 0:11:24.600 with us and you know, um, you know, suffer through 0:11:24.640 --> 0:11:27.800 my questions and uh so yeah he was. He was 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:30.640 a nice guy. And he didn't mean he didn't seem 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:33.800 like like a magician or like any kind of I mean, 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:35.960 I wouldn't have noticed him like walking down the street. 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:37.559 He didn't like stand out and he just seemed like 0:11:37.640 --> 0:11:40.760 typical old old money dude. You know. He was he'd 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:43.040 been in the army and he had seen all the 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:45.280 changes of the moon had gone through, like when you know, 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:48.280 slavery was still in effect there and like the sixties 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:52.480 and he saw that the changes and um, you know 0:11:52.640 --> 0:11:55.480 how there was like nothing there but at that point 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:57.839 and like in the sixties and even not until the 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:01.400 seventies when Sultonica Booze took her really start to move 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:05.920 from backwater into like uh, you know, first world nation. 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:09.800 So he's seen all that, so it's pretty why is 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:13.160 an interesting guy? So they were when you met him. 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:17.280 And look, I've had I've met some folks who who 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:20.480 claimed to you know, be involved this kind of stuff 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:22.000 and and some of them right off the bat, You're like, 0:12:22.120 --> 0:12:24.679 this guy, this person is like it's total connor, Like, 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:27.760 did you get any sense of that or did he 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:31.000 seem like he was really sincere? No. I think he 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:34.640 genuinely believes in what he's doing, and I think he's 0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:37.800 he's he claims to have helped over five thousand people 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:41.880 and you know, during his whole tenure as a as 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:44.640 a molem to get rid of Gin and so I mean, 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:47.800 and I've heard lots of stories from other people about him, 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:49.840 So yeah, I mean he seemed like the real deal. 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:53.440 So you travel he lives in Bahlad, right m hm. 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:56.839 And as you traveled to the most haunted place in 0:12:56.920 --> 0:12:59.480 the I guess in the Middle East. And how is that? 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:01.760 I mean, did you get a set like what's that 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:07.160 place like? Well, um, it looks like a typical little 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:10.120 sleepy like mountain Hamlet, you know. I mean, it's just 0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:16.600 it's in it's in the western the western Hajjar Mountains, 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:20.599 and they're pretty rugged and desolate, and it looks a 0:13:20.679 --> 0:13:23.480 lot like Mars. Actually, if she's never been to Aman, 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:26.640 it looks like that's they could film. They could film 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:30.079 Mars there easily or a movie about Mars there, you know. Um, 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:32.520 and it's just a it's just a little town. There's 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:37.360 a stoop and um. You know, it's not nothing really 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:39.680 remarkable about it except that there is a castle there. 0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:43.559 And that castle is like kind of the one of 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:47.480 the hot spots for paranormal activity in in Bahala because 0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:50.480 they've been trying to restore since like the nineties. And 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:53.800 every time they go in and they do something, then 0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:56.000 they come back the next day and it's been undone 0:13:56.120 --> 0:13:57.679 and a lot of people say, well, it's the gin, 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:00.920 you know. They don't. They don't like their people coming 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:03.840 in and messing with the place where they're they're haunting. 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:06.400 So that's why it's taken so long for it to 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:09.680 finally open. I think it was open just a couple 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:12.040 of years ago. Finally. I guess the gym like the 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:17.200 ruins ruined. They don't renovation. Yeah, I mean they need 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:20.400 the atmosphere. I guess did you did you spend much 0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:22.040 time or do you say the night where you like 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:26.560 trying to like see if you could. Unfortunately you can't 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:28.080 do that. I would have loved to do that with 0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:30.240 like a school Scooby doo kind of thing, I know, 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:32.400 to spend the night in the castle I mean or 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:34.960 in bah blad cell I mean either yeah, but the 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:38.120 cattle or not. No, I didn't do that, and I 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:41.160 never spent the night in Blahlabah. I didn wander around 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:44.880 the soup, and the soup has an interesting um. There's 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:48.840 a what my students called the Leading tree. So supposedly 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:53.720 there was there were some people that were someone who's 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:57.240 who was suspected of practicing witchcraft, I think, and that 0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:00.600 it was sometimes between the twelve and the six fourteenth 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:04.040 century and anyway, so they executed a few people who 0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:07.120 are who are who they've suspected to be witches there 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:11.360 and on this particular tree. And so this this true. 0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:13.320 My students told me that if you just touch this tree, 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:16.240 you'll like you'll be cursed and you'll all all these 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:18.960 horrible things will happen to you. And so I had 0:15:19.000 --> 0:15:20.240 to go see it, of course, and I had to 0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:25.360 touch it. And so I'm still, yes, yes, you know, 0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:27.320 I wanted to see something, you know, like that. I've 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:30.480 always had a longing in for, you know, for there 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:33.240 to be something else, you know besides this this. You know, 0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:35.840 there's got to be something else out there. We'll be 0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:41.080 right back after the short break. When you say that 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:43.560 you have always felt like there's something out there, what 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:46.280 what is like kind of like the framework of your 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:47.720 beliefs is it? Is it kind of like in a 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:49.520 religious sense, or is it kind of like in a 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:52.400 supernatural sense, or is it just like your childhood stories 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:54.600 of stuck with you? What do you think is up there? 0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:58.000 I have no idea, you know, really, I just but 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:00.640 I haven't feeling that there means from the things that 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:03.960 I've seen and and other stories and the stories that 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:06.760 I've been told, you know, I'd like to think that 0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:10.440 there's some something else out out there, you know, some 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:13.320 kind of power greater than myself, you know that's controlling 0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:17.200 and uh controlling, pulling the strings, you know, like in 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:21.640 the in the Puppet Show or something. But uh, but yeah, 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:24.280 what um. When I was in my twenties, I was 0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:26.600 really into Carlos Casta Meta and so I read a 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:30.240 lot of his stuff, and I went to Mexico and uh, 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:33.000 you know, followed some of the things that he does 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:35.080 in his books to try to have us to try 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:41.640 to recreate you know, his experiences, um um. And you know, 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:45.120 I've always just been a fan of of those kind 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:47.640 of those kind of stories, you know, because I think 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:53.360 it's some kind of human um longing to for there 0:16:53.400 --> 0:16:55.840 to be something else besides this world. And and that's 0:16:55.920 --> 0:16:58.480 I think it's really comforting. And any kind of evidence, 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:02.960 even if it's scary or um, you know, even even 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:05.080 if you even if you would not like to have 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:07.800 any kind of face to face encounter with it, it is. 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:12.280 I think it's reassuring to know that there is something else, 0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:16.240 you know. I think that's why people look to religion 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:19.720 and they look too, you know, they want to believe 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:22.200 these kind of stories, because it gives them some sense 0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:24.639 of comfort that you know that the death is not 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:26.919 the end. It is just you know, a new beginning. 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:29.239 That's interesting. I never actually thought about that. I mean, 0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:33.359 I I thought about people's belief in the paranormal in 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:35.479 the sense that, okay, we have to find some way 0:17:35.520 --> 0:17:38.960 to explain things that we can't understand. The unknown itself 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:42.199 is scary. But I never thought about it um from 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:45.800 that angle that if we believe in something, even if 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:48.479 it's something evil, something terrifying, something that we don't want 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:52.200 to encounter, it means that we're not. It like, there's 0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:54.680 definitely a world greater than us, and there's other things 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:57.680 and that has its own sense of hope attached to it. 0:17:57.800 --> 0:18:01.080 That's really interesting. Um okay, So I want to talk 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:04.639 about when when that lady arrived from Boston and you 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:08.679 received her, and what was your impression and uh what happened? 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:12.920 Tell us the story. Yeah, well, um, you know, she 0:18:12.960 --> 0:18:16.800 didn't look like she was possessed by Jim. She looked 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:21.080 a little jet lagged, and she was personable, and you know, 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:23.760 she seemed like someone I would you know, I could 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:27.480 connect with her because I think for the same reason 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:31.240 they I mean, for the same for the reason she 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:33.520 was there in Oman. She she flew all the way 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:36.639 just for this and she didn't even stay like she 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:39.200 just came for that. She did. She she went for 0:18:39.320 --> 0:18:41.960 Rukia for for the exorcism and then and she was 0:18:42.000 --> 0:18:45.320 gone like the next day. So uh so I kind 0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:46.720 of I like those kind of people. I like the 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:49.600 kind of people that were you know, they take it 0:18:49.680 --> 0:18:52.159 to the they see how far can they can take it, 0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:57.120 you know, And um, she seemed like that kind of lady. Um. Yeah, 0:18:57.200 --> 0:18:59.720 But so it was me and her and my friend Hemmed. 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:04.000 He was. He was Um, he's a local guy and 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:07.119 he had never he'd heard of Wadam Silent but he 0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:09.280 never met him. But he went along as our translator 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:12.560 and so the local who was he was game to 0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:15.560 go to the most haunted place in the country. Yeah, 0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:17.119 but he's you know how many this kind of a 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:19.480 westernized guys. He's spent a lot of time with ex 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:22.560 pats and Kay, he's not your typical money you know, 0:19:22.640 --> 0:19:26.280 he's um. Most of the monies are like really friendly 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:29.960 and you know, really willing to be like you know, 0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:35.120 typical like a hospitable kind of people. Uh. But he's 0:19:36.320 --> 0:19:38.639 you know, more open minded to you know, these kind 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:42.520 of things. He actually had a few experiences. He had 0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:45.000 he had one experience before with the Gin. And you know, 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:48.040 if you if you talked to Um, Yeah, if you 0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:52.080 talk to anyone who's uh, who's in Islam or you know, Muslim, 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:55.240 and no, almost everyone believes in jin and they almost 0:19:55.320 --> 0:19:57.840 all believe in angels too, But no one, no one 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:00.080 I've met, has ever had an experience at first an 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:02.840 experience with an angel. But almost everyone has some kind 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:05.200 of Gin story. So I don't know what that tells 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:10.640 you yeah, but that's I think that's a very astute 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:13.159 observation and what would you come to think of it? 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:16.600 Although I will say my one of my grandfather's claims 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:20.520 to have had an encounter with angels in Mecca. But 0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:23.160 that's like one out of every single Muslim I nose, 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:28.359 so it's very wrong. Wow okay, So so okay, So 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:31.320 you pick her up and you drive and suddenly there's 0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:34.320 a storm. Well I've been brewing that day. You know. 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:37.159 It was like at that time of the year, we 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:40.920 get these winds from the north to Chamalia and sometimes 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:44.840 it you know, it collides with the um with the 0:20:44.920 --> 0:20:47.520 moisture from the gulf of them on and you know, 0:20:47.600 --> 0:20:50.480 we get these big sandstorms. So yeah, I've been brewing 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:53.880 that day and and it was it was a pretty 0:20:53.880 --> 0:20:56.880 bad one actually. I mean the visibility was really low 0:20:57.000 --> 0:21:00.200 and I was driving my little keep a count don't 0:21:00.200 --> 0:21:02.600 I was getting battered around the road on the road 0:21:02.720 --> 0:21:06.000 and you know, there's kind of spattered, there's spattering him 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:08.240 rain here and there, and everyone's driving with their lights 0:21:08.320 --> 0:21:12.240 on and so it's yeah, I was did anything perfect 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:15.840 like signs to you. I was like, this is like 0:21:15.880 --> 0:21:18.240 a movie, man, this is so cool. This is like, 0:21:18.440 --> 0:21:20.080 you know, this is like can't pick up. We couldn't 0:21:20.119 --> 0:21:21.520 have picked a better day to go to blah bla, 0:21:21.600 --> 0:21:24.000