1 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to The Hidden Gin, a production of I Heart 2 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Mankey. Hi, and 3 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: welcome to this very special bonus series of The Hidden Gin. 4 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 1: The interviews. In these episodes, you'll hear me talk to 5 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 1: people from all walks of life who have had Gin experiences, 6 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: are drawn to the stories of Gin, and draw lessons 7 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:49,480 Speaker 1: from these stories. You'll hear from artists, scholars, writers, journalists, 8 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: and Gin exorcists, and even from me as I discuss 9 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: how and why this series came about in a very 10 00:00:55,840 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: personal conversation with my husband. Thanks for listening and enjoy. 11 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:08,199 Speaker 1: I'm so excited to bring you this guest this week. 12 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: His name is Baxter Jackson, and I found Baxter when 13 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:15,040 Speaker 1: I was doing my research for the Hidd Engine, well 14 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: before the show ever aired, and he was gracious enough 15 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:20,479 Speaker 1: even though he was halfway across the world and had 16 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: just begun a vacation. He lives in the Gulf Um, 17 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 1: the Gulf Regent, and he was vacationing up in Europe 18 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:30,759 Speaker 1: and uh, but I managed to nail him down and 19 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: we did a transatlantic interview. So I came across Baxter 20 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: when I found a couple of articles he had written 21 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: he's a journalist along with many other things he does, 22 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: UM about things he had witnessed himself in a place 23 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: that's one of the most haunted regions apparently in the world, 24 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: Bahda and oman Um. And I was so fascinated with 25 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: his experience that I really wanted to talk to him, 26 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: and I thought you guys would love to hear from him. 27 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: So I've been holding on this interview for so long, 28 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: and since this week's episode is all about summoning the 29 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: in Um, I thought this was kind of like a 30 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: perfect time to air it. So let me tell you 31 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: a little bit about Baxter. Baxter Jackson is a writing 32 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,800 Speaker 1: instructor at a university in the desert oasis of Ian 33 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 1: in the United Arab Emirates. While living in the Middle 34 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: East for the past thirteen years, including stints in Egypt, 35 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 1: Ohman and again the ui E, he has been crafting 36 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: unique cultural interest stories about his experiences for travel websites 37 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: such as Lonely Planet, the Metador Network, and local publications 38 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: such as Outdoor U A E. You can find Baxter 39 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: on YouTube and Instagram. Again, It's Baxter Jackson, and well, 40 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: come and join me as I speak to Baxter. It's 41 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 1: a great conversation. Hi Baxter, thanks for joining me on 42 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: the show this week and my pleasure. Happy to be here. Um. So, 43 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: you know, I want to start off by talking just 44 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 1: about I've told our listeners a little bit about your 45 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:56,079 Speaker 1: work in journalism and specifically kind of get the work 46 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 1: you've done in the Middle East. Can you tell us 47 00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: about your body of work and how you ended up 48 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: doing that? Well, I was I just happened to get 49 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 1: an opportunity to teach at the American University in Cairo, 50 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 1: and when I was there, that was sort of my 51 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 1: introduction to the Middle East. And I've always been interested in, um, 52 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: you know, paranormal phenomenon. I've always had kind of a 53 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: longing to believe that there's something else out there, you know, 54 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: some other side to life that we don't get to see. 55 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: And UM, so that's Um what were you teach something? 56 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 1: Were you teaching something related to like paranormal phenomenon or no? No, no, 57 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: no at all. I was working at the Writing Centers 58 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 1: basically like a writing tutor and on a scholarship at UC. So. Um. Yeah, 59 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 1: but that was my introduction to the to the Middle East. 60 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: And um, but I've never written about, you know, paranormal 61 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: phenomenon before. I was before I happened to find myself 62 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: years later in oman which is where you find Bahala, 63 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: which is like the kind of the epicenter of all 64 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: things that go bump in the night. For as far 65 00:03:57,400 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: as you know, in the Muslim world goes, they don't 66 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: if anyone, if any Arab has ever heard of oman Um, 67 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: then they know they know about it from Bahlah's like 68 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 1: Bahlah's you know, whisper kind of Yeah, my my introduction 69 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: to Baha lah and Um and how it is like 70 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: kind of this hotbed of activity. Actually, I didn't know 71 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 1: this until I found your article and I was so 72 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 1: excited to read it and it was a fascinating piece 73 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:25,280 Speaker 1: and I'm gonna link it for everybody so they can 74 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:27,479 Speaker 1: made it as well. And I have referenced it in 75 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: the series Um and So. But but but that was 76 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: that was like your first introduction to the world of 77 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: gin or I'm assuming it couldn't have been. You must 78 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: have heard about this before that. I mean I heard 79 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: about genies of course. I mean in popular culture in 80 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: the West, you know, we see genies and like Aladdin 81 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 1: and movies like that, and so yeah, and I dream 82 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:49,919 Speaker 1: of Genie. I mean I was born in the seventies, 83 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 1: so I grew up with I dream a Genie. But 84 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 1: I never thought like, Okay, this is the real thing 85 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: or not, you know, I mean I just thought it 86 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 1: was like one of these you know, popular myths or whatever. 87 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: So at what point did you realize that there are 88 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 1: people who think this is a real thing? Was it? 89 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: It was it during that story, no matter, was it 90 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: before that? Like, was there any other interaction for well, no, 91 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:15,600 Speaker 1: I mean I've had I had a couple of experiences 92 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 1: and um, when I was living in Cairo that made 93 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: me realize that you know that most Muslims consider Jen 94 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: to be, you know, just as real as God or 95 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: the prophet Muhammad or any other you know, part of 96 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 1: anything that's send the Koran. Did they take it mostly 97 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 1: mostly it's taken literally, you know, and a lot of people, uh, 98 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: you know, I started to hear stories about Gin or 99 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: like weird things that would happen and people would say 100 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 1: it's a gin you know, and um, but you know, 101 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: for me, it was just kind of like, okay, it's 102 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:47,799 Speaker 1: like a grimlin did it, you know, like or something 103 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 1: like that. You know in the West, they've experienced something 104 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:55,159 Speaker 1: that can't explain, So I'm just kind of projecting onto it. Yeah, exactly, yes, yeah, okay, 105 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 1: so tell me. Okay, the month story starts off with 106 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: you kind of waiting for a woman who's going to 107 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 1: be joining you to get exercise basically, and so there's 108 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 1: a story before that, like how did you how did 109 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:11,840 Speaker 1: she hear view, how did you connect with her? And 110 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 1: how did you why did you decide to like oh, yeah, 111 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 1: this is something I totally want to be part of. Well, yeah, 112 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: that's um. I've written a story about Mualm Salem. She 113 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: is like the most famous exorcist in bah Blah, and 114 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 1: I was I was living in ns Woman, which is 115 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: about maybe four kilometers away, and so I've written a 116 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 1: story about him, and she saw it online and then 117 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:35,600 Speaker 1: she wanted to and she turns out she actually was 118 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: possessed by a gender had been possessed by jen for 119 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: for many years. And she had actually gone to chargea 120 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 1: before to meet with a medium or a woman a 121 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 1: Syrian woman there who was who could sort of like 122 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: soothsayer or like she you know, sort of a gypsy 123 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,160 Speaker 1: type where she could predict your future. See what's wrong 124 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 1: with you, and you can't tell give you a diagnosis. 125 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: And she was the one who confirmed her suspicion that 126 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: she was actually possessed by gin and and then she was. 127 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 1: Then she went to see Sheik and Sharjan and that 128 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: helped for a little while, but the problem persisted. So 129 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 1: she this woman wasn't like from the region, right, like 130 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: she flew from the other side of the world. She's 131 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: from Rhode Island actually, but living in Boston. And her only, 132 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: her only connection to the Middle East was I mean, 133 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: she has Middle Eastern friends that she made because she's 134 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 1: a she was tutoring some some students studying there in 135 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: Boston who happened to have, you know, Middle Eastern background, 136 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: and so that was that was her only connection. She'd 137 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: she'd been to like Duban, and she'd I think she'd 138 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: been took a few other different places in the Middle 139 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: East a few times, and had some kind of like 140 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: import export business, you know, she would get things that 141 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: people needed in different parts of the world. But other 142 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 1: than that, like, no, no Middle Eastern background whatsoever. Like 143 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: she wasn't Mustlim her son and she wasn't Muslim, no, no, 144 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: not even did she talk to you about what those 145 00:07:57,360 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: problems look like. I mean, like she's traveling across the 146 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: world to to get help for her issues. What were 147 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 1: what was she experiencing? Yeah, yeah, she said that she 148 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: would have like these night terrors, like she would just 149 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: wake up and like you know, in a sweat, and 150 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: she was she felt like someone was in the room 151 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 1: with her, and like and then when she did feel 152 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: that present, she felt like someone was pushing down on 153 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: her chest. She had like a normally heavy minstrual cycle. Um, 154 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: one of her one of her her I think it 155 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: was a left or I can remember which I was, 156 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,959 Speaker 1: but clouded over. And she went to see a doctor 157 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: and that didn't like you know, in traditional Western doctor 158 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 1: and nothing, nothing seemed to work, and she's you know, 159 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: and then she began to become like increasingly paranoid, and um, 160 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:49,199 Speaker 1: you know, she wasn't getting sleep, and it was just 161 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: she felt like her life without a control, you know, 162 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: And so she was she was desperate enough to you know, 163 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:58,559 Speaker 1: start doing research and and then she ran across the 164 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 1: article that I had written for out Door about about 165 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: this guy and while salom and she contacted me and 166 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: she said, you know, I'm an American. I live in 167 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 1: Boston and I have a gym problem. But I'm not crazy, 168 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:12,839 Speaker 1: you know. And then of course my first thought was 169 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: she must be. But so I thought, you know, um, 170 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:20,559 Speaker 1: I'm open to new experiences, and I've already met with 171 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: him once and it would really be no problem. I 172 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: would I would go to Moscot all the time from 173 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,599 Speaker 1: as well anyways for the weekend skateboarding, hang out with 174 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:29,559 Speaker 1: my friends. So you know, it was just like, no 175 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: sweat off my back. So I thought, you know, why not, 176 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 1: I'll just I'll meet her and see what her story 177 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: is and put her in contact with this guy, and 178 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:39,719 Speaker 1: let's see what happens. So, okay, can we talk a 179 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:41,679 Speaker 1: little bit about how the first piece came about? It 180 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:43,839 Speaker 1: wasn't just that you moved to Amana you heard about 181 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 1: him or like how did how how did that happen? Yeah? 182 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 1: Well I heard about him from my from my students. 183 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:53,319 Speaker 1: Well I heard about Bahala from my students, you know, 184 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,680 Speaker 1: like they wouldn't even want to haunt town type of right, Yeah, 185 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: and so you just just I they're so paranoid about 186 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: they won't even they don't like they're not comfortable talking 187 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: about Jen at all. You know, like the as soon 188 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:09,599 Speaker 1: as you say jin and like this milla, you know, 189 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: and then they you know, they wanted the jim to 190 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:13,599 Speaker 1: go away, if that's how you get a jim to 191 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: go away to say this. But anyways, they think it's 192 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 1: like bad karma or just it's like courting, courting bad 193 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: luck or ill fortunate to even talk about Jen's But anyways, 194 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: I learned about it um him, or about Bahhala in general, 195 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: you know, the reputation Bahhla from from my students. But 196 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:37,199 Speaker 1: then um, one of my colleagues, she's Omani, and you know, 197 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 1: I asked her like, do you know anyone who actually 198 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: so I asked her about it about you know, do 199 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:42,959 Speaker 1: you know anyone who does this kind of thing? Because 200 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: I was really curious to see what, you know, how 201 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: it might differ from like the exorcistem I've seen in 202 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: movies and things like that, you know, let's the Islamic 203 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 1: slant on it, you know. And um, so, yeah, she happened. 204 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: She did a little poking around and she put me 205 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: in contact with him, and yeah, what was that meaning? 206 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: Like it was kind of weird? Uh, he was kind 207 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: of I mean, he was sort of enigmatic. I mean 208 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: he was like, uh, my Arabic wasn't that good at 209 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 1: that point, so I had to have translated with me. 210 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 1: But um, he was. He was open enough to meet 211 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 1: with us and you know, um, you know, suffer through 212 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 1: my questions and uh so yeah he was. He was 213 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 1: a nice guy. And he didn't mean he didn't seem 214 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: like like a magician or like any kind of I mean, 215 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 1: I wouldn't have noticed him like walking down the street. 216 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:37,559 Speaker 1: He didn't like stand out and he just seemed like 217 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: typical old old money dude. You know. He was he'd 218 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 1: been in the army and he had seen all the 219 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: changes of the moon had gone through, like when you know, 220 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 1: slavery was still in effect there and like the sixties 221 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 1: and he saw that the changes and um, you know 222 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: how there was like nothing there but at that point 223 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:57,839 Speaker 1: and like in the sixties and even not until the 224 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: seventies when Sultonica Booze took her really start to move 225 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: from backwater into like uh, you know, first world nation. 226 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: So he's seen all that, so it's pretty why is 227 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: an interesting guy? So they were when you met him. 228 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 1: And look, I've had I've met some folks who who 229 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 1: claimed to you know, be involved this kind of stuff 230 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 1: and and some of them right off the bat, You're like, 231 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:24,679 Speaker 1: this guy, this person is like it's total connor, Like, 232 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: did you get any sense of that or did he 233 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: seem like he was really sincere? No. I think he 234 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: genuinely believes in what he's doing, and I think he's 235 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: he's he claims to have helped over five thousand people 236 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: and you know, during his whole tenure as a as 237 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: a molem to get rid of Gin and so I mean, 238 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: and I've heard lots of stories from other people about him, 239 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean he seemed like the real deal. 240 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 1: So you travel he lives in Bahlad, right m hm. 241 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,839 Speaker 1: And as you traveled to the most haunted place in 242 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: the I guess in the Middle East. And how is that? 243 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 1: I mean, did you get a set like what's that 244 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: place like? Well, um, it looks like a typical little 245 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 1: sleepy like mountain Hamlet, you know. I mean, it's just 246 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: it's in it's in the western the western Hajjar Mountains, 247 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,599 Speaker 1: and they're pretty rugged and desolate, and it looks a 248 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 1: lot like Mars. Actually, if she's never been to Aman, 249 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: it looks like that's they could film. They could film 250 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:30,079 Speaker 1: Mars there easily or a movie about Mars there, you know. Um, 251 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: and it's just a it's just a little town. There's 252 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: a stoop and um. You know, it's not nothing really 253 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 1: remarkable about it except that there is a castle there. 254 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:43,559 Speaker 1: And that castle is like kind of the one of 255 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: the hot spots for paranormal activity in in Bahala because 256 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 1: they've been trying to restore since like the nineties. And 257 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 1: every time they go in and they do something, then 258 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: they come back the next day and it's been undone 259 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:57,679 Speaker 1: and a lot of people say, well, it's the gin, 260 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 1: you know. They don't. They don't like their people coming 261 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: in and messing with the place where they're they're haunting. 262 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 1: So that's why it's taken so long for it to 263 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,680 Speaker 1: finally open. I think it was open just a couple 264 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: of years ago. Finally. I guess the gym like the 265 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 1: ruins ruined. They don't renovation. Yeah, I mean they need 266 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: the atmosphere. I guess did you did you spend much 267 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 1: time or do you say the night where you like 268 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: trying to like see if you could. Unfortunately you can't 269 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: do that. I would have loved to do that with 270 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: like a school Scooby doo kind of thing, I know, 271 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 1: to spend the night in the castle I mean or 272 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: in bah blad cell I mean either yeah, but the 273 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: cattle or not. No, I didn't do that, and I 274 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: never spent the night in Blahlabah. I didn wander around 275 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: the soup, and the soup has an interesting um. There's 276 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: a what my students called the Leading tree. So supposedly 277 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 1: there was there were some people that were someone who's 278 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: who was suspected of practicing witchcraft, I think, and that 279 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: it was sometimes between the twelve and the six fourteenth 280 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: century and anyway, so they executed a few people who 281 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: are who are who they've suspected to be witches there 282 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: and on this particular tree. And so this this true. 283 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: My students told me that if you just touch this tree, 284 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: you'll like you'll be cursed and you'll all all these 285 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 1: horrible things will happen to you. And so I had 286 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: to go see it, of course, and I had to 287 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: touch it. And so I'm still, yes, yes, you know, 288 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: I wanted to see something, you know, like that. I've 289 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 1: always had a longing in for, you know, for there 290 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: to be something else, you know besides this this. You know, 291 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: there's got to be something else out there. We'll be 292 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: right back after the short break. When you say that 293 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: you have always felt like there's something out there, what 294 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: what is like kind of like the framework of your 295 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: beliefs is it? Is it kind of like in a 296 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: religious sense, or is it kind of like in a 297 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: supernatural sense, or is it just like your childhood stories 298 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: of stuck with you? What do you think is up there? 299 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: I have no idea, you know, really, I just but 300 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: I haven't feeling that there means from the things that 301 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 1: I've seen and and other stories and the stories that 302 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: I've been told, you know, I'd like to think that 303 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: there's some something else out out there, you know, some 304 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: kind of power greater than myself, you know that's controlling 305 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 1: and uh controlling, pulling the strings, you know, like in 306 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: the in the Puppet Show or something. But uh, but yeah, 307 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: what um. When I was in my twenties, I was 308 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: really into Carlos Casta Meta and so I read a 309 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: lot of his stuff, and I went to Mexico and uh, 310 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 1: you know, followed some of the things that he does 311 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: in his books to try to have us to try 312 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: to recreate you know, his experiences, um um. And you know, 313 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: I've always just been a fan of of those kind 314 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: of those kind of stories, you know, because I think 315 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: it's some kind of human um longing to for there 316 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: to be something else besides this world. And and that's 317 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: I think it's really comforting. And any kind of evidence, 318 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: even if it's scary or um, you know, even even 319 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 1: if you even if you would not like to have 320 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: any kind of face to face encounter with it, it is. 321 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 1: I think it's reassuring to know that there is something else, 322 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 1: you know. I think that's why people look to religion 323 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 1: and they look too, you know, they want to believe 324 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 1: these kind of stories, because it gives them some sense 325 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 1: of comfort that you know that the death is not 326 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 1: the end. It is just you know, a new beginning. 327 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:29,239 Speaker 1: That's interesting. I never actually thought about that. I mean, 328 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 1: I I thought about people's belief in the paranormal in 329 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:35,479 Speaker 1: the sense that, okay, we have to find some way 330 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: to explain things that we can't understand. The unknown itself 331 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:42,199 Speaker 1: is scary. But I never thought about it um from 332 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: that angle that if we believe in something, even if 333 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:48,479 Speaker 1: it's something evil, something terrifying, something that we don't want 334 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:52,200 Speaker 1: to encounter, it means that we're not. It like, there's 335 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 1: definitely a world greater than us, and there's other things 336 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,680 Speaker 1: and that has its own sense of hope attached to it. 337 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: That's really interesting. Um okay, So I want to talk 338 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:04,639 Speaker 1: about when when that lady arrived from Boston and you 339 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,679 Speaker 1: received her, and what was your impression and uh what happened? 340 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:12,920 Speaker 1: Tell us the story. Yeah, well, um, you know, she 341 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 1: didn't look like she was possessed by Jim. She looked 342 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: a little jet lagged, and she was personable, and you know, 343 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: she seemed like someone I would you know, I could 344 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: connect with her because I think for the same reason 345 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: they I mean, for the same for the reason she 346 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: was there in Oman. She she flew all the way 347 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,639 Speaker 1: just for this and she didn't even stay like she 348 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 1: just came for that. She did. She she went for 349 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: Rukia for for the exorcism and then and she was 350 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: gone like the next day. So uh so I kind 351 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 1: of I like those kind of people. I like the 352 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: kind of people that were you know, they take it 353 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:52,159 Speaker 1: to the they see how far can they can take it, 354 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:57,120 Speaker 1: you know, And um, she seemed like that kind of lady. Um. Yeah, 355 00:18:57,200 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 1: But so it was me and her and my friend Hemmed. 356 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: He was. He was Um, he's a local guy and 357 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,119 Speaker 1: he had never he'd heard of Wadam Silent but he 358 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 1: never met him. But he went along as our translator 359 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 1: and so the local who was he was game to 360 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 1: go to the most haunted place in the country. Yeah, 361 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 1: but he's you know how many this kind of a 362 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 1: westernized guys. He's spent a lot of time with ex 363 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: pats and Kay, he's not your typical money you know, 364 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: he's um. Most of the monies are like really friendly 365 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: and you know, really willing to be like you know, 366 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:35,120 Speaker 1: typical like a hospitable kind of people. Uh. But he's 367 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:38,639 Speaker 1: you know, more open minded to you know, these kind 368 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: of things. He actually had a few experiences. He had 369 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 1: he had one experience before with the Gin. And you know, 370 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 1: if you if you talked to Um, Yeah, if you 371 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 1: talk to anyone who's uh, who's in Islam or you know, Muslim, 372 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: and no, almost everyone believes in jin and they almost 373 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: all believe in angels too, But no one, no one 374 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:00,080 Speaker 1: I've met, has ever had an experience at first an 375 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 1: experience with an angel. But almost everyone has some kind 376 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 1: of Gin story. So I don't know what that tells 377 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:10,640 Speaker 1: you yeah, but that's I think that's a very astute 378 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,159 Speaker 1: observation and what would you come to think of it? 379 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 1: Although I will say my one of my grandfather's claims 380 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: to have had an encounter with angels in Mecca. But 381 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,160 Speaker 1: that's like one out of every single Muslim I nose, 382 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 1: so it's very wrong. Wow okay, So so okay, So 383 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 1: you pick her up and you drive and suddenly there's 384 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: a storm. Well I've been brewing that day. You know. 385 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:37,159 Speaker 1: It was like at that time of the year, we 386 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 1: get these winds from the north to Chamalia and sometimes 387 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 1: it you know, it collides with the um with the 388 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: moisture from the gulf of them on and you know, 389 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 1: we get these big sandstorms. So yeah, I've been brewing 390 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,880 Speaker 1: that day and and it was it was a pretty 391 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:56,880 Speaker 1: bad one actually. I mean the visibility was really low 392 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:00,200 Speaker 1: and I was driving my little keep a count don't 393 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 1: I was getting battered around the road on the road 394 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 1: and you know, there's kind of spattered, there's spattering him 395 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 1: rain here and there, and everyone's driving with their lights 396 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: on and so it's yeah, I was did anything perfect 397 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: like signs to you. I was like, this is like 398 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 1: a movie, man, this is so cool. This is like, 399 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 1: you know, this is like can't pick up. We couldn't 400 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: have picked a better day to go to blah bla, 401 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: you know, for the atmosphere. So I was like, you know, 402 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 1: I was really I was into us as I was 403 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 1: loving it and I was like eating it up. Yeah. 404 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,680 Speaker 1: So then you get to uh Bam Salem's house and 405 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 1: tell me what that was, like, what they what happened. Well, 406 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 1: I wasn't even sure if he was going to be there, 407 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,639 Speaker 1: So there was a little tension and there there because 408 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 1: you know, because she she flew come all this way, 409 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:46,440 Speaker 1: and you know, I talked to him like a couple 410 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 1: of days before, but we hadn't reconfirmed. You know, in 411 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:51,399 Speaker 1: the in the Middle East, you always have to like, 412 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: you know, okay, you know I'm gonna I'm gonna be 413 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:56,200 Speaker 1: coming over tomorrow, you know, and then you reconfirmed the 414 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: day of and like when you're about to leave, you 415 00:21:58,280 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: send a message and then you know you have to 416 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 1: like this has to be a lot of reassurance of 417 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,399 Speaker 1: people just assume you're not gonna come. So I didn't 418 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: do any of that. I just did kind of like 419 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 1: the Western thing and like, okay, I'll see in two 420 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 1: days and you know, I didn't talk to him again. So, um, 421 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: but he's retired, so you know, we're too gonna go. 422 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 1: He's he's there at this house most of the time. 423 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:19,639 Speaker 1: So anyways, we got there and and yeah, so I 424 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:24,200 Speaker 1: introduced it introduced him to this woman from Boston and 425 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 1: my friend hmmed and and the storm was, um, it was. 426 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 1: It was kind of strange because the storm was all 427 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 1: around us at this point, you know, and it was 428 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 1: but I guess we're like in the eye of the 429 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:41,359 Speaker 1: storm or something. And so so yeah, that was that 430 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 1: was a little weird. And there was like this it 431 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:45,959 Speaker 1: was like this kind of electric electricity in the air, 432 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 1: I guess from the I don't know how electricity builds, 433 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 1: but how that works, but there's like these little you know, 434 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 1: like I guess the static electricity or what it is 435 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 1: in the in the clouds. So it was an eerie 436 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: kind of atmosphere for you know, a day for an 437 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: exorcistem you know. Um. So yeah, um, and didn't what 438 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 1: happened well, um, and then we were we came we 439 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:14,399 Speaker 1: went inside and um, and then the and then the 440 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: electricity went off, not immediately, but at some point you know, 441 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 1: when we started the When we started the um, we 442 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: were they were going to do the wood, which is 443 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 1: like when you you know, the ritual cleansing of the 444 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 1: hands and feet, you know, because it is you know, 445 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 1: a sacred Islamic ritish and there's a certain protocol to 446 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 1: be fallen. But so um, but we we just he 447 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: decided to skip that because um, because the electricity went out, 448 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 1: and you know, there was so yeah, I guess the 449 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: electricity went off because of the storm, you know, And 450 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: so he lit a candle and then there was like this. 451 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 1: When he lit the candle, it was like this strange 452 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 1: shadow across the wall. I don't know if it was 453 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: from the candle or and it's like the smell of 454 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 1: sulfur that it could have been from the matches. I 455 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:08,680 Speaker 1: don't know, but at all it was like it was 456 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 1: really weird. And then what did the shadow look like? 457 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: What was what was the shape the shadow? It was 458 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 1: just like I don't know, if you've ever been up 459 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:17,400 Speaker 1: for a few days in a row and you start 460 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 1: to see this, it's kind of it was like that 461 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: it was like one of these shadows that you catch 462 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 1: like in the in the corner of your out of 463 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:25,959 Speaker 1: the corner of your eye, and you're not sure if 464 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 1: you really saw it or not, but it's enough to 465 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 1: make to give you the creeps, you know, give you 466 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 1: a you know question, were you the only one to 467 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,439 Speaker 1: see it? Or did anybody see it? Now? We all 468 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 1: kind of we all like turned our heads and like, okay, 469 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 1: what the hell was that? You know? So yeah, um, 470 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 1: so the lights flickering and then uh, maybe it was 471 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:50,640 Speaker 1: maybe it was some kind of I don't I don't 472 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 1: know what the sound was, but it was like it 473 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 1: was like a strange kind of a whispering sound at 474 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,439 Speaker 1: the same time the shadow appeared. And then and then 475 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: at that point that at that point, um, while I'm 476 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 1: Stylom started to surrect to recite apart from the last 477 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 1: two chapters of the Koran, which were all about, you know, 478 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,160 Speaker 1: what to do in these kind of situations when someone 479 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: is possessed by a gent so he started to recite that, 480 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 1: and um, yeah, so that was what's going on with 481 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 1: the woman who's possessed. So she like lying on the floor. 482 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 1: She I mean, we exercist. I'm assuming it wasn't that extreme. No, 483 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 1: she didn't float, unfortunately, but but that was at that 484 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: point I wouldn't have you know, I wouldn't have been surprised, 485 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,159 Speaker 1: So uh yeah, she she lied back down on she 486 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:42,640 Speaker 1: she lied on the in the middle of the room, 487 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 1: down on the middle of the room. And then and 488 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: she and he was like reciting the Koran over her, 489 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,920 Speaker 1: and then her looked like that her eyes rolled rolled 490 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 1: back into her head and she you could see like 491 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 1: the whites of her eyes only, and and she let 492 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 1: out to smoan. It was like some kind of like 493 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: I don't know, like a primal scream or something. And 494 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,160 Speaker 1: it was weird. It was like definitely nothing I've ever 495 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: experienced before. You know, did you feel scared in the moment? 496 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: It was like it was so strange that I was 497 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 1: I felt like frozen, kind of like I don't know 498 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 1: if I mean, it was it was so weird. I 499 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 1: was like it was so um like captivating, but the 500 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,680 Speaker 1: captivating it was kind of like like watching a train wreck. 501 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: You know, you can't pull away, you can't pull your 502 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 1: eyes away, So uh yeah, it was. It was. It 503 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 1: was Mondo bizarre for sure. And but did you get 504 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 1: me answer, did you get the sense that what was 505 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: happening in front of you was like real? That's the thing. 506 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 1: I think that's that's what made me not want to 507 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:52,879 Speaker 1: look not want to look away, because I wanted to 508 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: see like, Okay, this is this like actually happening. And 509 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 1: it was like because you know, as he was reciting this, this, 510 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: as they was reciting the Koran this, uh yeah, she 511 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: started to make this the sound and and the you know, 512 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 1: the whites of her eyes and the storm and it 513 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 1: was it was it was intense, you know, it was 514 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:18,160 Speaker 1: like it was really it was heavy. So um so yeah, 515 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: I mean I was just I just saw what I saw, 516 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,200 Speaker 1: and I don't I don't know if it was that's 517 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: really what what happened, you know, if it was you know, 518 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 1: the gin was actually leaving her body, but it seemed 519 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:32,400 Speaker 1: to me that that's like I think that's what was happening. 520 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I can't there's no way I could like 521 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,640 Speaker 1: confirm scientifically, you know, like this is true what happening, 522 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: And it was just my experience and what I saw. 523 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 1: But but that's also that's also I'm assuming what um 524 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 1: the exorcist said was happening. And she reported that she 525 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 1: felt was happening too, that this thing was leaving her body. Yeah. Afterwards, 526 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: she said that she felt like a sense of you know, 527 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 1: lightness like she I mean, she was and disoriented at first, 528 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 1: and um, she doesn't remember the point when we were like, 529 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 1: you know, holding her down because she started convulsing, you know, 530 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 1: after this primal scream came out, came out of her 531 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:17,159 Speaker 1: and before she settled down. And at one point I 532 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 1: remember that a few years ago. So I'm just trying 533 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,440 Speaker 1: to uh, the molem had some holy water and he 534 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 1: like splashed her with it, and you know, um so 535 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 1: um so she began and you guys had to hold 536 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,879 Speaker 1: like physically like me and Hammed had to hold her 537 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: her arms down. So she she's like started to like 538 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 1: thrash about. And I guess this is at this point 539 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 1: when the you know, the gin was leaving her body 540 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: or whatever it was. You know, maybe it was maybe 541 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 1: it wasn't a gym. Maybe it was like her repressed 542 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 1: traumatic memories or I don't know, um, who knows what 543 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: what the gin really is, you know, And maybe it 544 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 1: was just like a way for the people and a 545 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: long time ago to try to explain this kind of 546 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 1: like epilepsy or like these other kind of the childhood 547 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 1: traumas or something you know, like post traumatic stress disorder. 548 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know what it was, but 549 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 1: uh something, but something was happening for sure. So how 550 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 1: long did this exorcism like take place. It wasn't that long. Actually, 551 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 1: it was like maybe ten and fifteen minutes. I mean 552 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: once it's once I get started. Yeah, it's pretty quick. 553 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 1: I mean it's quick work to extract a gin from somebody, 554 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 1: it seems like given what we've seen like in the 555 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 1: movies and film and stuff. But and how how was 556 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 1: she afterwards? Yeah, she seemed like she seemed really happy that. 557 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 1: I mean, she was kind of just warranted at first. 558 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 1: And um, she really wanted a cigarette afterwards because it was, 559 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 1: like I AM, pretty intensive experience for her, I guess, 560 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 1: but she she felt like I think she felt that 561 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 1: she was it was worth her while to come all 562 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: that way to him on to you, to do the 563 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: research to find me and to go visit this guy. 564 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 1: And and I'm assuming he charges for his services, right, 565 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 1: Like how does he make a living? Yeah? Yeah, he does, Um, 566 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 1: and that's up that's just up to the client. I 567 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 1: mean I think she gave him like a hundred dollars 568 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 1: or something like that. Whatever the client wants to give. Yeah, 569 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 1: just like she didn't. He didn't have like at price 570 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 1: price list on the door, and so yeah, yeah, so, um, 571 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,280 Speaker 1: your story ends, Your story about her ends kind of 572 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 1: mysteriously because it seems like later on she feels like, 573 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 1: actually she is still possessed. Yeah. Um, so you guys, 574 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 1: basically after she left, you stayed in touch. No, we didn't, 575 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 1: not for a long time, and then just just a 576 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 1: couple of I guess it was just last year. I 577 00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: started to think about the experience and thought, you know, 578 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 1: that was that's kind of a crazy story. You know 579 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 1: why I should I should write that up. And so 580 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 1: I contact her again just to check up, you know it, saying, hey, 581 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 1: you know how to go with you did? Did your 582 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 1: visit to Aman? Did it really help you? And she 583 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 1: told me that it did for a while, you know 584 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 1: it did. It definitely brought her some kind of peace. 585 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: But she had to go on and do some further research, 586 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 1: and she ended up going to Indonesia because there's a 587 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 1: lot of possessions in Indonesia and there's lots of people 588 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: who do the rukia there and she had to really 589 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: she told me a really crazy story about you know 590 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 1: that involved blood and maggots and um, and there was 591 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 1: some kind of nefarious like, um, not everybody in Indonesia 592 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 1: who does these exorcisms is on the level, so there's 593 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 1: some some nefarious things going on. And I think she 594 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 1: encountered one of those, if I remember correctly, she encountered 595 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 1: one of those guys. She was uh, basically kind of 596 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: doing like a parlor trick to to satisfy his clients. 597 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 1: And you know with the kind of like what they did. 598 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 1: And I can't remember when it was popular, but at 599 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: one point in the United States, these seances, the contacting 600 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 1: the dead was like a really popular fun thing to 601 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: do at parties, you know, and they would bring in 602 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: these mediums and there's a lot of people like that 603 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 1: and it used to do this, but you know, in 604 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 1: the Islamic world, um, not just for fun, but you know, 605 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,240 Speaker 1: for profit and for because people would like so fervently 606 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 1: believe and you know that they're possessed by these gend 607 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:36,960 Speaker 1: they're willing to go to any length. And then if 608 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 1: they get these dramatic results and you know there's blood 609 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 1: and maggots and weird things happening like you see in 610 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 1: the in the horror films that they have a huge 611 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: horror film industry in Indonesia by the way. But anyway, 612 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 1: so if you so, if you see these kind of 613 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: things and you feel like you're getting your money's worth 614 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 1: and you know, and it creates more business for the guy. 615 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 1: So UM, So that happened to her and then and 616 00:32:57,680 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 1: then I think she finally did find someone who's legitimate. 617 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: And I haven't heard from her since and that was 618 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 1: that was that was last year, the last time I 619 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 1: heard from her. Um. But she also I think she 620 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 1: later she went to Malaysia because there's a big um 621 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 1: because Malaysians Muslim country, and so there's lots of people 622 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 1: who are possessed there. And then there's the whole Malaysians 623 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 1: uh slant on how exorcisms are done, and you know 624 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 1: what that entails. And so I think there's so much, 625 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 1: there's so much I don't know about it. You know. 626 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: What I experienced was just like a little you know, 627 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 1: like a little snapshot of like a much bigger picture 628 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 1: of if you you know, if you're looking into paranormal 629 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 1: phenomenon in Islamic world, I'm guessing. Um, every kind of 630 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 1: culture has its own like you know, angle to the 631 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: exorcisms that like resonates with with the locals and makes 632 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 1: sense given like the context and stuff. And that's also 633 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: something that I thought it would be kind of formulated 634 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 1: and that makes sense. It's really interesting. So for you, um, 635 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:08,759 Speaker 1: what have you thought about like and one other things? 636 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 1: I mean, that's this is not the only stuff you've 637 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 1: write about. You write about like you your work is 638 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 1: like about a lot of different like cultural aspects of 639 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 1: that region. But it's something that you've thought about pursuing 640 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:21,880 Speaker 1: more in depth, Like is it something you still think 641 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:23,800 Speaker 1: about or you're just like, wow, that was interesting and 642 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 1: I'm I'm done. It's it is what it is. No, 643 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,320 Speaker 1: I mean, I would love to go to Indonesia to 644 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,440 Speaker 1: look more into like what's happening there, because I think 645 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,279 Speaker 1: that's a really interesting situation there because of the mix 646 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 1: of beliefs there. You know, they have before before Islam came, 647 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 1: there was I mean there was Hinduism, and before Hinduism 648 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 1: they had the Japanese had their own animistic beliefs and 649 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 1: those beliefs mixed with the Hinduism, and then they brought 650 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:53,840 Speaker 1: some of those beliefs with them into Islam. And so 651 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,239 Speaker 1: like this really interesting mix of beliefs and they all 652 00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 1: seem to to co exist fairly peacefully, you know, like 653 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 1: when there was a riot or something going on. But 654 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:05,920 Speaker 1: I just they think the mix of that would be 655 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 1: really interesting to see and I would like to go 656 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,400 Speaker 1: visit some of these Charlottean's, you know, to see just 657 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:13,400 Speaker 1: try to sort out who's real and who's not, you 658 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,800 Speaker 1: know what anything that would be and I mean the 659 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 1: fascinating peace to to go, especially with someone who was like, 660 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 1: you know, truly felt like they were actually affective and 661 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,759 Speaker 1: had it were possessed by Jen, you know, to that 662 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,560 Speaker 1: would I think that would be a pretty moving peace. 663 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 1: Have you are you do you still living them on? No, 664 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:33,279 Speaker 1: I'm in the UI, you know, but I mean I 665 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 1: mean Czech Czech Republic for the summer, but and living 666 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:40,120 Speaker 1: in the U A un okay, something similar there? Or 667 00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 1: is it? Is it kind of a different culture much 668 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 1: more like kind of progressive there? Well, um, it's not 669 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:51,239 Speaker 1: famous for having you know, the there's no ba in 670 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 1: the UI e but um there there is um some 671 00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,800 Speaker 1: degree of you know, the same beliefs there because it 672 00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:03,399 Speaker 1: is and it's you know, Muslim country and so um 673 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 1: you know, occasionally it comes up when I'm with my students. 674 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 1: You know, we talked about these these kind of things 675 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 1: come up, and uh, sometimes we'll talk about gin and 676 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:15,520 Speaker 1: angels and you know, these these different beliefs and so 677 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:17,800 Speaker 1: the people but they're believing them too, you know. So 678 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 1: and most of my students have some kind of story 679 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,759 Speaker 1: that involves the gin. So uh. And then you know 680 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 1: the first person that the woman from Boston that I helped, 681 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:31,840 Speaker 1: she went, she went to go see was actually in charge. 682 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 1: So there's there are people who do exercistems there too. Mhm. Well, 683 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 1: I I mean I don't know if I'd be able to, 684 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 1: but I'd love to speak to this lady. And given 685 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,520 Speaker 1: especially the fact that she's kind of traveled the world 686 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,759 Speaker 1: and I mean took I mean that's you know, I 687 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 1: mean like that's something that you're taking very seriously if 688 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:55,239 Speaker 1: you're gonna be that committed to addressing this issue. Um, 689 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:59,719 Speaker 1: so maybe that's a possibility. But um, what are your 690 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:01,880 Speaker 1: kind of like plans going forward? You have any other 691 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:04,719 Speaker 1: anything in the pipeline? And where do you write because 692 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:08,359 Speaker 1: I'd love for our listeners to check out your pieces. Yeah, 693 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:11,840 Speaker 1: most of my stuff you can find on the Matador Network. 694 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 1: Just google Baxter Jacks to Matador. The list should pop 695 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 1: up of most of my pieces that have been for 696 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 1: them over the years. I'm assuming you're open to other 697 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,759 Speaker 1: people reaching out with their GIN stories. Yeah, I would 698 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 1: love to hear them for sure. That I mean, I'm 699 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 1: fascinated by the supernatural and people have had firsthand experiences 700 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,719 Speaker 1: like that. So yeah, well, I'd love it if you 701 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 1: ever returned to Oman and did like a ghost Hunter's 702 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 1: type of episode in Bahalla. That would be a lot 703 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 1: of take some video. Yeah, but I would love to 704 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,960 Speaker 1: do that. It would be cool the Ghostbusters the Oman 705 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:52,359 Speaker 1: edition exactly. Well, thank you so much. This has been 706 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 1: really interesting and I guess I just want to end 707 00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 1: with one final kind of question to you, although I 708 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,960 Speaker 1: feel like you've answered it in different ways, um, and 709 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 1: that is this after everything kind of you you've lived 710 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,320 Speaker 1: in the region what thirteen years now, um, and everything 711 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,919 Speaker 1: you've have experienced firsthand and stories you've heard, like where 712 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 1: do you got to fall on the spectrum of like 713 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:19,360 Speaker 1: do you believe jin exists? I don't know, UM, I 714 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 1: mean I know what I saw, I know what other 715 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,879 Speaker 1: people have experienced. UM. I like to believe I guess. 716 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,400 Speaker 1: I guess you could say that I'm sort of still agnostic. 717 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:33,439 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know for sure, but you don't 718 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,120 Speaker 1: know that they don't. You don't know that they don't. Right, 719 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:41,359 Speaker 1: that's right, what about you and your Muslin? Right? I am? Yeah, 720 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 1: I well, you know, it's one of those things where 721 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 1: it's like the way I think about it was like 722 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 1: like if I if I am a person of faith, 723 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:51,840 Speaker 1: like pretty much of any faith, and I have some 724 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,759 Speaker 1: belief in something supernatural, this is how religion is, and 725 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:57,759 Speaker 1: so then how do you draw a line where I 726 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,320 Speaker 1: believe this? But that's going too far? Right? Like so 727 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 1: to me, I, like you said, if you believe in 728 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 1: angels and you believe in God and you believe in Satan, 729 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:10,439 Speaker 1: then like why are Jim's way too fantastical? Like that's 730 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:16,839 Speaker 1: so that the realm of But yeah, let's right, let's 731 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,359 Speaker 1: not go too far. Um, so it's not too far 732 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,360 Speaker 1: from me. I do absolutely believe there are phenomen that 733 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:24,839 Speaker 1: we don't understand, we might not ever understand. I don't 734 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:27,239 Speaker 1: think everything that people experience they think is jin is 735 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,279 Speaker 1: always jin. I think there are often times and I've 736 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,960 Speaker 1: seen this myself in my own life where people have 737 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:36,680 Speaker 1: let's say, deep mental health issues or they are trauma. 738 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,719 Speaker 1: There's so many other things that happened that we might 739 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,920 Speaker 1: interpret that way or it's just easier to deal with 740 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:47,920 Speaker 1: that way. Maybe. But having said that, I mean when 741 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,880 Speaker 1: I hang out in the castle and at night, probably not. 742 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:55,640 Speaker 1: I'm not trying to court. I don't want to bring 743 00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:59,680 Speaker 1: them home. And honestly, to be honest, Baxtor, And in 744 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,480 Speaker 1: this interview series, the very first episode I hope you 745 00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,040 Speaker 1: get a chance to listen to it will be with 746 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 1: my husband talking about like our personal experience and so 747 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:11,279 Speaker 1: I have had some experiences that I'm like, I what 748 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 1: else could it be? Like a GIN or something anyhow, 749 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:19,839 Speaker 1: But anyway, thank you again. I really appreciate your time, 750 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:21,520 Speaker 1: and I'm going to continue to follow your work and 751 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:24,719 Speaker 1: I help you get to Indonesia and uh and fill 752 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,160 Speaker 1: us all in And you know I would totally read 753 00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,560 Speaker 1: that and watch that. Okay, Hey, thanks, thanks a lot 754 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:38,600 Speaker 1: for for this interview. I hope you enjoyed that conversation 755 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,480 Speaker 1: as much as I did. Now, there are as many 756 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,520 Speaker 1: people in the world with GIN stories as there are GIN, 757 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,399 Speaker 1: So if you have one you'd like to share, make 758 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:49,960 Speaker 1: sure to email it to me at the Hidden Gin 759 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,920 Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. That's the Hidden Gin. Th H 760 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,000 Speaker 1: E H I D D E N d J I 761 00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,600 Speaker 1: n n at gmail dot com. And until next time, 762 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:13,719 Speaker 1: remember we are not alone. The Hidden Gin is a 763 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,680 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio and Grimm and Mild from 764 00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:20,600 Speaker 1: Aaron Mankey. The podcast is written and hosted by Robbiah 765 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:24,680 Speaker 1: Chaudrey and produced by Miranda Hawkins and Trevor Young, with 766 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:29,880 Speaker 1: executive producers Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. Our 767 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:33,960 Speaker 1: theme song was created by Patrick Quartets. For more podcasts 768 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,000 Speaker 1: from I Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, 769 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:40,520 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.