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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas. And

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Speaker 1: if I may, I'm gonna I'm gonna ask our producer

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Speaker 1: knowl to uh down a little spooky music, and I'm

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Speaker 1: going to read a quote from HP Lovecraft. Wait, hold on,

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Speaker 1: let me turn on the white We are submerged in

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Speaker 1: complete darkness right now. It's a little weird. Wait, holding

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Speaker 1: this really difficult, but okay, there, all right? This is

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Speaker 1: from Lovecraft supernatural horror. In literature, children will always be

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Speaker 1: afraid of the dark, and men with mind sensitive to

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Speaker 1: hereditary impulse will always tremble at the thought of the

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Speaker 1: hidden and fathomless worlds of strange life, which made poll

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Speaker 1: sat in the gulfs beyond the stars, or press hideously

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Speaker 1: upon our own lobe in unholy dimensions which only the

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Speaker 1: dead and the moon struck can limps. That was beautiful.

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Speaker 1: And if you guys haven't guessed out there, we are

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Speaker 1: diving way into the deep dark in this episode. And

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Speaker 1: I love that because it really does evoke the sort

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Speaker 1: of primal fear that darkness has particularly for children. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean the great thing about this topic is that

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Speaker 1: light and dark, those are the cycles that have defined

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Speaker 1: our lives, that have defined life for the most part

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Speaker 1: for so long. I mean, life here on Earth exists

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Speaker 1: within these cycles of light and dark, and that has

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Speaker 1: played into uh the evolutionary ascent of of almost all organists.

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Speaker 1: And it's so important to us that we have woven

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Speaker 1: it into this symbolic level, right, I mean the ying

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Speaker 1: and yang of dark and light, these opposites which really

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Speaker 1: represent these ideas of not just values, but of the

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Speaker 1: spheares that we inhabit. Because on one level of the

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Speaker 1: world of light, the word the sunlit world, I mean

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Speaker 1: that's an area of the known, and then the world

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Speaker 1: of darkness that isn't an area of the if not

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Speaker 1: the unknown, at least the uncertain. The other the possible.

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Speaker 1: They had sort of the quantum state where the darkness

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Speaker 1: can be simply emptiness. The darkness can be something you

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Speaker 1: could trip over, it could be a thief, it could

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Speaker 1: be a monster. There's there's room for just about any

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Speaker 1: fear within that undefined space of shadow. And that undefined

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Speaker 1: space of shadow is largely what occupied the the human

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Speaker 1: experience and in fact, if you look at archaeological evidence

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Speaker 1: that suggests that, you know, just four d thousand years

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Speaker 1: ago or so, early humans mastered fire before that, what

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Speaker 1: would you do. I mean, you didn't. You didn't really

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Speaker 1: have that access to something that could glow and provide

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Speaker 1: some sort of illumination in the dark. Now skip ahead

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Speaker 1: to today, where we have a possibility for twenty four

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Speaker 1: hour light environments, and we kind of take that for

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Speaker 1: granted that darkness really did rule the night. Indeed, I

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Speaker 1: mean for the longest, to borrow a phrase from historian

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Speaker 1: William Manchester, you had a world uh lit only by fire,

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Speaker 1: right at least a night lit only by fire. So

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Speaker 1: you even if you had you had fire, you had candles,

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Speaker 1: you had torches, you had campfires. Eventually you get gas

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Speaker 1: lighting and and and lanterns and other uh luminary innovations.

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Speaker 1: But but for the most part, you're sort of carving

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Speaker 1: out a little bit. You were reclaiming a little bit

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Speaker 1: of the night, but it's not quite as good as

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Speaker 1: the daylight, and you're still surrounded by all these shadows

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Speaker 1: and just gulfs of impenetrable darkness. Right until you had

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Speaker 1: like a really good um widespread source of artificial light.

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Speaker 1: All you have those dying embers to light the space

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Speaker 1: around you. So what would you do. You would submit

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Speaker 1: to that dark and most of us would go to sleep.

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Speaker 1: And that brings up this idea which we've touched upon before,

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Speaker 1: of two a sleep. Yeah, I mean this is pretty simple.

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Speaker 1: What happens when it gets dark? And again you may

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Speaker 1: have some some some light at your disposal, you may

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Speaker 1: have a camp fire your disposal, but your abilities are

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Speaker 1: greatly reduced. So you go to sleep. You simply call

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Speaker 1: it a day, except something happens about about halfway through,

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Speaker 1: right you wake because according to historian Rogert Eckert, who

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Speaker 1: published a book on the matter called at Days Closed

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Speaker 1: Night in Times Past, which by the way, was a

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Speaker 1: culmination of his sixteen years of research that uncovered more

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Speaker 1: than five references to a segmented sleeping pattern, he found

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Speaker 1: that you would wake in this fourteen hour sleep pattern

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Speaker 1: for maybe an hour or two, get up, tend your animals,

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Speaker 1: do a little white house keeping in the moonlight, have sex,

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Speaker 1: lay in bed, thinking, smoking a pipe, or gossiping with

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Speaker 1: your bed fellows. In fact, and we've mentioned before, I

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Speaker 1: love this. It's widely known that Benjamin Franklin would light

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Speaker 1: a candle and take cold air baths, reading naked in

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Speaker 1: a chair. Indeed, that was his his strategy for this

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Speaker 1: this period between the two sleeps. And one thing I

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Speaker 1: love about this is it also really defines that idea

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Speaker 1: about the middle of the night, right because for us,

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Speaker 1: the middle of the night is typically more a situation

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Speaker 1: of staying up late enough for it to be the

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Speaker 1: middle of the night. But you go back to to this,

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Speaker 1: this earlier mode of sleep, and it's it's not merely

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Speaker 1: a stage of lateness, but a true in between that

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Speaker 1: this this little space, this little uh clutch of the

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Speaker 1: darkness that you end up occupying between these two dominant

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Speaker 1: phases of sleep. Now and Stephen Johnson's book How We

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Speaker 1: Got to Now in the PBS series, there is a

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Speaker 1: section on light and he talks about that. He talks

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Speaker 1: with historian Craig Koslovsky, who says that you know, are

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Speaker 1: kind of nighttime wakenings now or even insomnia may be

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Speaker 1: attributed to this original for seen our sleep phase. In

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Speaker 1: other words, it's kind of normal that we get up sometimes,

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Speaker 1: you know, midnight or two o'clock in the morning, and

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Speaker 1: we can't get back to sleep for a while. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean that's the biological norm. That's what we evolved

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Speaker 1: to do. And it's only been in the last hundred

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Speaker 1: and fifty years, two hundred years, that we've really carved

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Speaker 1: out a substantial zone of the night and and ReLit it.

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Speaker 1: According to Stephen Johnson in the in the book of

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Speaker 1: How We Got to Now, in that that chapter and

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Speaker 1: Light points out that today's night sky burned six thousand

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Speaker 1: times brighter than it did in me or one hundred

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Speaker 1: and fifty years ago. So it's it's transforms. It's transformed

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Speaker 1: the way we sleep, the way we work and uh.

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Speaker 1: And that's of course spiral of office, Johnson explains in

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Speaker 1: his book into the creation of global networks of communication.

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Speaker 1: Uh and and and a lot of our modern technological world. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because all of a sudden, you have improved street lighting,

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Speaker 1: you had the advent of social opportunities at the in

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Speaker 1: during the evening, you have you know, restaurants and cafes

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Speaker 1: to go to. And that cause is a shift in

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Speaker 1: people sleep patterns because before that, according to Koslovski, you

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Speaker 1: had associations with the night that we're not so good.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about before the seventeenth century. He says the

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Speaker 1: night was a place populated by people of disrepute, criminals, prostitutes,

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Speaker 1: and drunks. And he said even the wealthy who could

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Speaker 1: afford candle light had better things to spend their money

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Speaker 1: on than burning their candles all night long. There really

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Speaker 1: wasn't any prestige or social value. And staying up all night, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean nightfalls. You locked the door because the only

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Speaker 1: people out there are going to be people that are

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Speaker 1: probably up to no good. You don't want anything to

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Speaker 1: do with that. And the walls to the city, if

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Speaker 1: you have walls around your your here in which you live,

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Speaker 1: those are gonna close because anyone entering the city in

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Speaker 1: the night again up to no good. And hey, don't

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Speaker 1: forget about those nighttime predators of the animal ilk, right,

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Speaker 1: that's right. I mean it takes us back to our

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Speaker 1: primeval self, right. Uh, the idea that that there are

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Speaker 1: predators out there that will eat us and the night

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Speaker 1: belongs to to those creatures, not to us. Um. And

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Speaker 1: you know, you can spiral off from that into a

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Speaker 1: lot of our our fears of the of the dark,

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Speaker 1: of the dark, and concerns about the night and uh,

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Speaker 1: and that basic type one error and cognition that we

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Speaker 1: make when we believe a connection is really there and

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Speaker 1: uh when it isn't. We're hardwired to make type one

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Speaker 1: errors because a type to air a false negative gets

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Speaker 1: you killed. Always better to assume that their predators out

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Speaker 1: there in the dark. Always better to assume their thieves

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Speaker 1: and criminals and and whatever out there in the shadows,

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Speaker 1: because it's a safer bed. Now we'll talk later about

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Speaker 1: how this type one into cognition errors can uh kind

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Speaker 1: of mess us up here in our modern world. But

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Speaker 1: for now, let's try to figure out why we respond

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Speaker 1: so greatly to light and dark in the first place.

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Speaker 1: And in order to do that, we got to look

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Speaker 1: our old friends on the tree of life. I'm talking

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Speaker 1: about single filled bacteria because again, this comes back through

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Speaker 1: the very the basic nature of the evolution of life. Right,

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Speaker 1: Life evolved on a world that experiences period clockwork, periods

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Speaker 1: of night and day of light and darkness, and so

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Speaker 1: life itself is taking form within these environmental constraints yep.

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Speaker 1: And one of these constraints is a circadian rhythm, which

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Speaker 1: tracks a standard Earth day's twenty four hour cycle. It's

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Speaker 1: a secret to why we can adjust to different time

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Speaker 1: zones and their accompanying sleep patterns. And according to Annally Knew,

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Speaker 1: it's writing for I O nine in the article this

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Speaker 1: is why you Can't sleep quote, it's likely that circadian

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Speaker 1: rhythms evolved in sino bacteria blue green algae over three

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Speaker 1: billion years ago. And so you would say, okay, fine,

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Speaker 1: why but why did that blue green algae need to

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Speaker 1: have some sort of circadian rhythm? And the answer is

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Speaker 1: that it's all about energy. Because single cell bacteria they

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Speaker 1: need energy, but to get at their bodies had to

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Speaker 1: carry out two different chemical processes that interfered with each other.

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Speaker 1: So the bacteria began keeping time by tracking the sun.

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Speaker 1: So when it was light outside the cyanobacteria, we'd get

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Speaker 1: energy from photosynthesis, and when it was dark they could

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Speaker 1: get energy by sequestering nitrogen. But if these two processes

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Speaker 1: were done simultaneously, they would cancel each other out. But

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Speaker 1: sequentially keeping track of light and dark and went to

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Speaker 1: do these chemical processes allowed a maximum gathering of energy. Now,

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Speaker 1: the other idea is that at that time there were

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Speaker 1: life forms who shared the same environment, and this was

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Speaker 1: also a way to compete with each other for food.

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Speaker 1: So some evolved to feed during the day and others

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Speaker 1: to feed at night. And then you go forward and

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Speaker 1: you have us bipedal energy hogs really taking advantage of

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Speaker 1: this whole circadian rhythm thing. And of course this brings

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Speaker 1: us back to our old friend, the pineal gland, which

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Speaker 1: we we did an entire episode about about the pineal gland.

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Speaker 1: I think we called it my third eye peneal optics

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Speaker 1: um and uh, certainly go back and listen to that

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Speaker 1: one if you want a deeper dive into this, but

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Speaker 1: just to refresh, pineal gland is a small organ shaped

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Speaker 1: like a pine cone, hence the name, and it's located

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Speaker 1: on the mid line attached to the posterior end of

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Speaker 1: the roof of the third ventricle in the brain and

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Speaker 1: humans is roughly one sentiment or in length, and the

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Speaker 1: pennel is composed of penelocytes and giggle cells. In older animals,

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Speaker 1: the penel often contains calcium deposits or brain stand Now,

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Speaker 1: it's it's not an eye, it's not a true eye,

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Speaker 1: but it is. It does have optical properties, and it

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Speaker 1: does and light does play a role in what it does.

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Speaker 1: So light exposure to the retina relays to the hypothalamus,

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Speaker 1: and this is an area in the brain that is

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Speaker 1: involved in the in the coordination of biological clock signals.

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Speaker 1: UH and fibers from the hypothalamus descend to the spinal

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Speaker 1: cord and project to the superior cervical ganglia, from which

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Speaker 1: post a ganglionic neutrons ascend back to the pineal gland.

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Speaker 1: So the penneal transduces signals from the sympathetic nervous system

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Speaker 1: into a hormone linal signal, and it produces several important hormones,

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Speaker 1: including melotonin, in response to environmental lighting. So the human

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Speaker 1: penel regulates the rhythm that beats out the biological thought

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Speaker 1: by secreting a substance melatonin according to the light stimulus

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Speaker 1: received through the eyes and from the skin. Yeah, the

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Speaker 1: penel gland acts as a control tower for the biological clock.

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Speaker 1: Inside of this directing some body functions like sleep based

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Speaker 1: on the data that it's getting back from these light

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Speaker 1: sensing skills. And I love this idea that this third

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Speaker 1: eye does have all the components of an eye, but

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Speaker 1: is not an eye, and it is taking in all

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Speaker 1: of these environmental cues in order to tell the body. Hey,

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Speaker 1: time to wake up or time to go to sleep? Now, Um.

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Speaker 1: Alison louder Milk, who is whenres senior editors here, had

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Speaker 1: brought up the point before, and I think she was

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Speaker 1: like talking about whales at the Georgia Aquarium who are

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Speaker 1: affected by daylight savings time she ran up the point

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Speaker 1: of what what would happen if you weren't exposed to

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Speaker 1: light at all? Yeah, this brings to mind some research

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Speaker 1: from two thousand eleven UH into the nature of the

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Speaker 1: Mexican blind cave fish. Now, despite what the name would

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Speaker 1: have you think, this species exists in both subterranean and

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Speaker 1: surface populations. Now the surface fish swim with the benefit

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Speaker 1: of sighted eyes, while their underground can go about blindly

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Speaker 1: in laboratory populations this UH. In this two thousand eleven

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Speaker 1: to say, the surface fish slept while the cavers darted

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Speaker 1: around all night. Uh. The researchers discovered that the differing

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Speaker 1: sleep behavior hinged on a few dominant gene mutations that

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Speaker 1: became fixed in the cave populations when they took to

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Speaker 1: the dark. After All, as we've discussed in our truck

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Speaker 1: lafonta episode of food is scarce in the subterranean environments

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Speaker 1: particularly in Subtranian waters. So natural selection favors the scavengers

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Speaker 1: who are willing to work long, long hours. Um. This

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Speaker 1: research also brings to mind the account of researcher Christina Lanzoni,

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Speaker 1: who spent a whopping two hundred and sixty nine days

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Speaker 1: of solitary confinement in the subterranean under lab in the

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Speaker 1: Frasasi Caves in central Italy. Now, granted she didn't have

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Speaker 1: to swim about all night scaven scaven for food, but

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Speaker 1: her sleep patterns altered significantly. On average, Lanzoni's waking days

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Speaker 1: stretched on for fifty four to fifty six hours, followed

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Speaker 1: by fourteen to sixteen hours of sleep. For furthermore, that

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Speaker 1: sleep was much more like that of an infant, as

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Speaker 1: she fall immediately into rim sleep and dream of wide

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Speaker 1: and open spaces. So UM, what I like about those

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Speaker 1: two studies is that they do really drive home how

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Speaker 1: crucial light and dark um is. Do an organism be

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Speaker 1: it to being an organism's uh evolutionary advancement into a

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Speaker 1: into a realm of darkness, or its continuing existence in

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Speaker 1: a room of light, or just taking a single organism

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Speaker 1: and taking it out of that that flow of light

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Speaker 1: and dark and putting it into a subterranean world. Now,

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Speaker 1: in those examples, as are those are all organisms who

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Speaker 1: could detect light. But the question becomes, what if you

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Speaker 1: were never indoctrinated into light in the first place. We're

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Speaker 1: going to take a quick break when we get back,

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about blindness. We're gonna talk about

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Speaker 1: twenty four hours sleep wake disorder and fear of the dark.

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Speaker 1: All right, we're back, and we're discussing darkness. But it's

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Speaker 1: like to to live as an organism in a world

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Speaker 1: of light and dark and how light and dark rules

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Speaker 1: less at a very basic biological level. But what about

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Speaker 1: those of us whose ability to perceive light and darkness

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Speaker 1: is significantly degraded or almost erased, almost completely, at least

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Speaker 1: at the retina level. Yeah, and we'll talk about that

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Speaker 1: in a moment, about people who are blind and what

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Speaker 1: their sleep patterns are like. But first you have to

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Speaker 1: kind of go back to the whole spartadian rhythm in

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Speaker 1: the first place. And it turns out that most of

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Speaker 1: us have body clocks that run a little longer than

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Speaker 1: twenty four hours, and this can sometimes lead to something

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Speaker 1: called the twenty four hours sleep wake disorder. Or non

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Speaker 1: twenty four And according to the non twenty four site,

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Speaker 1: if your body clock is say twenty four point five

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Speaker 1: hours long, today, you're running a half hour behind. Tomorrow

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Speaker 1: you're an hour behind, and so on until your natural

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Speaker 1: rhythms have you sleeping during the day and a week

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Speaker 1: at night. Now this can go on and on and on.

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Speaker 1: So what basically what this um is saying is that

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Speaker 1: you could go to sleep at ten o'clock every night,

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Speaker 1: but if you have this non twenty four disorder, you know,

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Speaker 1: you might false ip at ten thirty and then eleven,

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Speaker 1: and then so on and so forth, and it just

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Speaker 1: keeps pushing that needle of your body clock around this

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Speaker 1: twenty four hour cycle, and in some cases it takes

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Speaker 1: up to say one and a half months to get

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Speaker 1: back to where you are simped up to say a

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Speaker 1: normal cycle that the rest of the world, at least

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Speaker 1: your time zone is on. I feel like this this

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Speaker 1: matches up at a symbolic level with with pretty much

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Speaker 1: everything uh in my modern life. Imagine with a lot

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Speaker 1: of people that you have within the the the calendar year,

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Speaker 1: within the the the confines of clock time, you have

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Speaker 1: x amount of time to spend on a given thing.

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Speaker 1: Unfortunately that thing actually takes x point five um to

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Speaker 1: to complete and it all adds up and you end

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Speaker 1: up just sort of not sticking to any particular schedule,

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Speaker 1: but just sort of falling through it. And this with

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Speaker 1: this amorphous sleeps cycle, with the amorphous attention to detail

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Speaker 1: and various corners of your life. UM and I feel

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Speaker 1: like my own just my own sleep sometimes falls like this,

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Speaker 1: like I'm not never never, just like to go to

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Speaker 1: sleep at this time, wake up at this It's like

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Speaker 1: like it'll it'll sort of flow and shift throughout a

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Speaker 1: given week. Well. As a former insomniac scept for, I

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Speaker 1: try to keep really close to the times that I

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Speaker 1: fall asleep and wake up because that helps a lot

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Speaker 1: in terms of regulation. But I understand what you mean.

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Speaker 1: I read on twenty four and I was like, well,

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Speaker 1: this is this does kind of feel like sleep can

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Speaker 1: become this very random thing and as you say, something

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Speaker 1: that you fall through as opposed to just being completely

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Speaker 1: SYNCD up on. And it turns out that among people

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Speaker 1: who are totally blind, as many as seventy suffer from

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Speaker 1: the effects of NON twenty four, which again comes about

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Speaker 1: because of this light of light perception, or more specifically,

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Speaker 1: the transmission of ocular light from the retina to their

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Speaker 1: circadian clock that is impaired, So you don't have that

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Speaker 1: sort of reset button, and you don't have that sort

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Speaker 1: of environmental cue of hey, let's wake up, and it

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Speaker 1: can be much more prevalent among the blind. So, you know,

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Speaker 1: we talked about that, this this idea that I can

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Speaker 1: take a month and a half to get sinked back

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Speaker 1: up to that cycle that at least your time zones on.

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Speaker 1: Imagine this sort of chronic sleep disorder that would be

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Speaker 1: in place, and all the symptoms that would follow. It

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Speaker 1: would feel like you had jet leg every single day

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Speaker 1: of your life. Yeah, I agree. That's that's the way

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Speaker 1: I felt before I had when I had this unaddressed

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Speaker 1: to sleep problems a while back. Yeah, And in these cases,

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Speaker 1: it's you know, extremely difficult to be on time and

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Speaker 1: stay awake at work, to attend school, pursue interest, keep

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Speaker 1: your social life intact, and so there aren't many things

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Speaker 1: that you can do for this. However, some people have

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Speaker 1: found limited relief through treatment with a synthetic version of

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Speaker 1: melotonin that will sometimes help to drag forward the body

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Speaker 1: clocks reset time by creating that chemical pulse to the

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Speaker 1: circadian um body clock. But again this is limited and

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Speaker 1: not everybody responds to it. Yeah, but still the synthetic

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Speaker 1: melotonin is key, much better than wandering around in the

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Speaker 1: middle of the night trying to stuff the pineal glands

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Speaker 1: out of people, so that if you're victims skulls. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there are only so many air bath that you can take.

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Speaker 1: But I mean, that's one of the things about sleep problems, right,

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Speaker 1: There's so many things you have to do in during

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Speaker 1: the course of a day, and here you are awake

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Speaker 1: in the dead of night, in the dark, and this

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Speaker 1: is you and you it's not only is it not

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Speaker 1: the time to do most of those things, but even

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Speaker 1: even the things that you could conceivably do that you

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Speaker 1: can turn on a light and grab a book or

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Speaker 1: or whatever, you work on your homework, work on your

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Speaker 1: you know, some some of your daylit work stuff, you

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Speaker 1: don't have the mindset to do it because what you

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Speaker 1: need is sleep at that time. Yeah, And I mean

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Speaker 1: it can also lead to other sleep disturbances like nightmares.

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Speaker 1: And there was a really interesting study that just came

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Speaker 1: out in the journal Sleep Medicine. And granted it is

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Speaker 1: one study, and it's very small, but in the study,

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Speaker 1: it showed that an average of of the dreams experienced

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Speaker 1: by people born blind are nightmares. And when you look

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Speaker 1: at sighted people in nightmares, it accounts for only six

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Speaker 1: percent of the dreams that they have. So that's you know,

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Speaker 1: a fourfold increase if you are born blind in this

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Speaker 1: one study. Yeah, Now, I do want to want to

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Speaker 1: drive home here that this is this is not something

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Speaker 1: that causes excessive trouble for those individuals. So don't think

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Speaker 1: about any blind people in your life or just you know,

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Speaker 1: uh that you may know and think, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: that you know that that poor person they're having to

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Speaker 1: just live of nightmare every night, something to that effect,

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Speaker 1: because it's not like that. No. In fact, when the

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Speaker 1: study participants who are born blinds were told of this

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Speaker 1: fourfold increase, they didn't even realize that it was disproportionate.

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Speaker 1: And they did they were fine for it. And if

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Speaker 1: you think about it, then we'll talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: more about this. That's maybe because dreams and nightmares kind

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Speaker 1: of helped guide us in an odd way. Yeah, we've

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Speaker 1: we've talked about dreams and nightmares in the past, and

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Speaker 1: I mean, you basically get down to this idea that

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Speaker 1: the dreams are, of course not just a screen saver

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Speaker 1: like dreams and and everything that's going on in your

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Speaker 1: brain at night. It's about processing the information, and from

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Speaker 1: the day, it's about processing your environment, your struggles, your stresses,

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Speaker 1: the problems that you're facing and working them out in

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Speaker 1: the brain. And sort of the the byproduct of all

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Speaker 1: that is the dreamscape that you end up inhabiting. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and let's droll down into the nitty gritty of this

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Speaker 1: study because I think it tells something about that dreamscape. So,

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Speaker 1: people who are born blind, they didn't have dreams with

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Speaker 1: visual content, that's one thing, and then that's where their

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00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,280
Speaker 1: dreams became nightmares. Now, people who lost their sight later

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Speaker 1: in life may have visual content in their dreams, although

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00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:38,640
Speaker 1: the longer they've been blind, the fear dreams they had

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Speaker 1: with visual content. Now, consider that seven percent of their

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00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,959
Speaker 1: dreams were nightmares, and dreams have normally sided people are

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00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,600
Speaker 1: based on the images and that they had, and they

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Speaker 1: have nightmares only six percent a time. Now. The trial

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00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:56,240
Speaker 1: subjects nightmares were often related to threats experienced in everyday life,

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Speaker 1: and one woman had nightmares about being run over by

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Speaker 1: a car or getting into embarrassing social situations like spilling

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Speaker 1: a cup of coffee on her. And if I remember

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Speaker 1: this correctly, I believe the woman was someone who had

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Speaker 1: been blind since birth. Now all of that comes to

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Speaker 1: suggest that again, that dreamscape is trying to work out

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Speaker 1: all of the things that are happening to you emotionally

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Speaker 1: and physically throughout the day. So there's this idea that

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Speaker 1: increased nightmares and those blind from birth maybe a way

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Speaker 1: to remember information that's important to survival and welfare, particularly

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Speaker 1: if you think about the more complex interactions with the

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Speaker 1: physical world, like navigating traffic. If you don't have any

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Speaker 1: sort of mental imagery of that or visual imagery of that,

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00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 1: then it's harder to create that blueprint. Right, So there's

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00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 1: there's more work that has to be done at night

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Speaker 1: while the bride brain is sleeping to help process all

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Speaker 1: that information. So it's just, you know, the situation where

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Speaker 1: there's there's a they live in a slightly different sense

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Speaker 1: world than cited individuals, and the way they interact with

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00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:08,639
Speaker 1: that sense world requires more processing in the night. It

431
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 1: maybe perhaps more fear based processing is a way to

432
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 1: inform the way that they're going to navigate their their

433
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,399
Speaker 1: world the next day, and again the researchers found like

434
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:24,400
Speaker 1: zero pronounced anxiety or depression as a result of increased nightmares. Yeah,

435
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,199
Speaker 1: because even when you get don't get down into like

436
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 1: really like fear with a capital of f A lot

437
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:31,680
Speaker 1: of our navigation during the course of the day is

438
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 1: ultimately fear based. You know. Just think of taking the

439
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:36,919
Speaker 1: train in the morning, which I often think about that

440
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 1: in terms of of people who who deal with blindness,

441
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,159
Speaker 1: because there are a number of of of blind individuals

442
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,200
Speaker 1: who take the train. We see them, see them every day.

443
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,679
Speaker 1: But and you think about the the effort of doing that.

444
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,919
Speaker 1: You're dealing with a this murderous piece of machinery that

445
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,919
Speaker 1: goes down the tracks, that travels in this uh in

446
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 1: this pit that has rats in it, and and you

447
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 1: have to get there, have to go up an elevator

448
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:03,920
Speaker 1: or take the stairs, and there's there. There's so many

449
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 1: different places, in different opportunities for me to die in

450
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 1: the course of of my daily commute, and I have

451
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 1: the benefit of sight uh to help me. I think

452
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 1: it also calls in, you know, to light this idea

453
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 1: that we really do dream with all of our senses

454
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: and those are all available to us. Yeah, it's it's

455
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 1: a it's a different sense world, that's for sure. All Right,

456
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:31,400
Speaker 1: we're gonna take a quick break and when we get

457
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,440
Speaker 1: back we will talk about being afraid of the dark

458
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 1: and whether or not having seem to do with insomnia.

459
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:48,160
Speaker 1: All right, we're back. And this leads us inevitably to nicktophobia,

460
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:52,120
Speaker 1: to fear of the dark. Now I have a toddler.

461
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 1: He's not really at the point where he seems to

462
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,879
Speaker 1: have a fear of the dark yet. Um, he's in

463
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,920
Speaker 1: the dark. You just can't see. But uh, your your

464
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 1: child is a is a bit older. Have you been

465
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 1: through fear of the dark has played into her experiences

466
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,440
Speaker 1: at all? No, uh, not yet. I mean she's five

467
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 1: and a half. But I remember when I was um

468
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:18,359
Speaker 1: around her age that I was definitely afraid of some

469
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 1: sort of monster lurking in the closet, which would only

470
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,160
Speaker 1: become a fear, of course, when the lights were out.

471
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 1: When was the last time you slept with all the

472
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 1: lights on with but with the not not by accident,

473
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,119
Speaker 1: but because you said I am going to leave a

474
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 1: light on when I go. I can't remember. I mean,

475
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,400
Speaker 1: now I'm like Elvis and I have blackout shades and

476
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 1: you know, not not one little stream of light gets through.

477
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:43,959
Speaker 1: What about you? Um? You know, I feel like there

478
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 1: was a time in the last few years when my

479
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 1: before my child came and uh, and that's when my

480
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,159
Speaker 1: wife was out of town, and I think, I like,

481
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,400
Speaker 1: I read something kind of spooky or watch something spooky,

482
00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,200
Speaker 1: and uh, and without the normal sort of comfort own

483
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:02,920
Speaker 1: of sharing a bed with someone, I was like, oh, wow,

484
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 1: it's just me in here. And I ended up sleeping

485
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 1: at least part of the night with the light on

486
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 1: because because having that other person there you have, something

487
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:11,920
Speaker 1: comes for you in the night, either they all hear

488
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 1: it or they can only really kill one of you

489
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,160
Speaker 1: at once effectively, so someone's going to survive. That's so funny,

490
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 1: because when we've talked about outsourcing memory before, it's kind

491
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 1: of like outsourcing responsibility. A murder comes, then you take

492
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 1: care of it. But I do remember years before when

493
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 1: I saw The Ring for the first time, I slept

494
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,400
Speaker 1: with definitely slept with the lights on all night after

495
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 1: seeing that. That one, that one scared me pretty bad.

496
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 1: I remember the book I Am Legend, which I got

497
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 1: from you, Richard Matheson that terrified. We had a hard

498
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 1: time going to say that's a good one. That's a

499
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 1: good fear of the dark book for sure, because it

500
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,880
Speaker 1: has to deal with a character who, on top of

501
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 1: all of his his angst and his problems and his

502
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 1: his alcoholism, when the sun goes down, dark things come

503
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 1: out of of the shadow and come for him and

504
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,400
Speaker 1: call for him, and uh and he must resist sleep

505
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:10,160
Speaker 1: in order to survive. Yeah, it's it's it's an impressive book. Yeah,

506
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 1: not to mention his alcoholism too, which is that's not

507
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 1: a good time to be an alcoholic when you've got

508
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 1: the bloodthirstay at your door, alright, So uh yeah, nickophobia,

509
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:23,440
Speaker 1: it is this anxiety reaction which is characterized by an obsessive,

510
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 1: irrational fear of the dark. And typically you see that

511
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,239
Speaker 1: in children, and you know they tend to grow out

512
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 1: of it, but sometimes they don't. Sometimes people are still

513
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 1: feared of the dark. And there's this idea that um

514
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 1: sleep disturbances could just be a fear of the dark.

515
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 1: And there's a paper call quote, are people with insomnia

516
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 1: afraid of the dark? Pilot study from Ryerson University Sleep

517
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: in Depression Lab, And it looks at a possible link

518
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 1: between sleep disorders and the dark. Yeah, and this study,

519
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: nearly half of the students who reported having poor sleep

520
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 1: also reported a fear of the dark, and researchers confirmed

521
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 1: this objectively by measuring blink responses to sudden noise bursts

522
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 1: in light and dark surroundings. Good sleepers became accustomed to

523
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 1: the noise burst, but the poor sleepers grew more anticipatory

524
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 1: when the lights went down. So you end up with

525
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 1: a situation where the poor sleepers were far more easy

526
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 1: to startle in the dark compared to the good sleepers. Yeah,

527
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 1: and the reason for all the eye theatrics, according to

528
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: Dr Colleen Karney of Ryerson University, is that if you're

529
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 1: already a little anxious, the noise will make you flinch.

530
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 1: And she said, we looked at eye reactions because it

531
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 1: is one of the most robust ways to measure this anxiety.

532
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: If you blink immediately after the noise, that means it

533
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 1: startles you. It's It's an interesting thing about this in

534
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 1: terms of phobias because, as we recently discussed in our

535
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 1: Fear of Holes episode where we discussed phobias a bit,

536
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 1: I mean, phobias come out of in many cases anyway,

537
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 1: they stem from a realistic fear. And certainly it's realistic,

538
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: as we've discussed, to have some apprehension about the dark,

539
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 1: because at the very least, the dark is the environment

540
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 1: where you will not see the whole you're about to

541
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: step into. Yeah, it's again it's that uncertainty that's stepping

542
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 1: into the unknown. And so when you say, like you know,

543
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 1: a spouses out of town, all of a sudden, those

544
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 1: those noises in the dark become much larger in your

545
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 1: mind than they possibly are, and um, you respond to

546
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 1: them in a much more robust way. So the interesting

547
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 1: thing about this study is that it got the researchers

548
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 1: to thinking if some people with sleep disorders like insomnia

549
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: they have an active and untreated phobia of the dark,

550
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 1: that treatment methods may need to be reevaluated. In other words,

551
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 1: could the underlying cause of the insomnia be a phobia

552
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 1: to the dark. So in other words, maybe we're better

553
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 1: off treating the phobia if it's there, rather than the

554
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,719
Speaker 1: inability to sleep. Yeah, and again this is more like

555
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 1: a hunch of the study, so you know, and they're

556
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 1: saying that they're just there's some people who do not

557
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 1: respond to behavioral drug therapy. Therefore, maybe there's something else

558
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 1: going on and it could relate to this. It's certainly

559
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 1: this would be a good one to hear from from

560
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 1: listeners because I know we have listeners. I know for

561
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 1: a fact we have listeners that have had problems with sleep.

562
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 1: And so, yeah, I ask yourself, to what extent do

563
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 1: you are you, honestly, um apprehensive about the dark and

564
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 1: do you feel that plays into your scenario or is

565
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 1: your scenario definitely not associated with that, because I know

566
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 1: I have a friend or I have one friend in

567
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 1: particular who has had always hadn't been plagued by insomnia,

568
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 1: and I know he's not afraid of the dark kind

569
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 1: of a guy like I think he just goes out

570
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 1: and walks in the dark. If you can't sleep, Yeah,

571
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 1: and then I mean there could be other underlying conditions

572
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 1: that you could have an anxiety just where you could

573
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 1: have PTSD. So it's not really um that apparent that

574
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 1: it could be just a more general phobia of the dark. Um.

575
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: But if you are afraid of the dark, if it's

576
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: something that bothers you, imagine being placed into this fictional

577
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 1: room outfitted and the darkest material known to man. WHOA,

578
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 1: you're of course talking about Zanta black. That's right. It's

579
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 1: so dark that any light that gets through the cracks

580
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 1: will essentially vanish into this material, which was created by

581
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 1: the company Surrey Nano Systems. And we're talking about a

582
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 1: dense forest of carbon nanotubes, single atom carbon tubes ten

583
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 1: thou times thinner than human hair that drink in nine

584
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 1: six percent of all incoming radiation. Yeah, it's super black,

585
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:39,239
Speaker 1: it's infinite black. It's the gothiest material possible. Uh and uh,

586
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 1: you're probably wondering, why would you why would you create this?

587
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 1: What's the point? Are you just trying to suck the

588
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 1: soul right right out of this? Well? Uh, this is

589
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 1: the main applications for this material would relate to sensitive

590
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 1: optical equipment like telescopes. UM and in fact, a NASA

591
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 1: Goddard team led by John Hagga Paine has been developing

592
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 1: nanotube material else like this since the two thousand seven. Yeah,

593
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 1: it's been described by one of the CEOs as um

594
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 1: deep featureless black. Even when folded and scrunched. He says,

595
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 1: you expect to see the hills and all you can

596
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 1: see it's like black. It's like a hole, like there's

597
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 1: nothing there. It looks so strange. So it's it's a

598
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: wonderfully creepy concept in innovation. I love it. I would

599
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: love to see it. I mean, you put it on

600
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 1: a gallery wall and let us stare into it, because

601
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 1: I love I love works of art that are just

602
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 1: like stark, you know, white and dark, and you can

603
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 1: sort of lose yourself in the depths of of the darkness. Well,

604
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 1: and what I think is so interesting about it is

605
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 1: that even when you're in the dark, you do perceive

606
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 1: some sort of light. Usually there's a source of somewhere

607
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 1: if you're never fulling in the dark. But here is

608
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 1: a possibility to create a room that would truly encase

609
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: you and in total lightlessness. And what I was thinking about,

610
00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: um we were talking about this earlier, is that we

611
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: are now entering into fall and very soon it's going

612
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: to be winter, and already the days are getting shorter.

613
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 1: There's not as much sunlight available to us. And so

614
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 1: that's why this idea of darkness is so interesting, because

615
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:15,399
Speaker 1: a lot of us start to turn in word right

616
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 1: now and we start to see these sort of cracks

617
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 1: in our psyche and it can be sort of a

618
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 1: depressive time for some people, and then sometimes it can

619
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 1: be good. Um yeah, why they plan to do the

620
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 1: holidays during the darkest period of the year. I never

621
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:30,879
Speaker 1: understood that can we do it in a happier mind

622
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 1: at least go outside? Well, I thought I thought I

623
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 1: could take comfort from this. One aspect of it is

624
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 1: that if you and not to make light of suffering.

625
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 1: If if you find that this is a season that

626
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,320
Speaker 1: does make you turn in word and become more serious

627
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 1: about things or grapple with things, that, um, it's beneficial

628
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 1: to us ultimately. And because again those cracks in the

629
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: psyche are important. And uh, if I may, I will

630
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,320
Speaker 1: read a quote from Leonard Cohen which goes a little

631
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 1: like this. There is a crack in everything, and that's

632
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,720
Speaker 1: how the light gets in. So keep that in mind,

633
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,800
Speaker 1: because you lie to candle at five third a p m.

634
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 1: When the sun goes down in your neck of the woods,

635
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 1: and lock the doors. Be sure to lock the doors,

636
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:20,880
Speaker 1: because there are things out there in the night and

637
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 1: they want to get to you, all right. So there

638
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,439
Speaker 1: you have it. Lots of good uh content in there.

639
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 1: I think kind of a just a dive into the

640
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 1: the idea of fearing the dark, our feelings about the dark,

641
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 1: evolving as a as a as a creature in this

642
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 1: world of light and darkness. So I'm sure a lot

643
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 1: of people have some feedback on that. In the meantime,

644
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:44,919
Speaker 1: go to stuffabol your Mind dot com. That is where

645
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 1: you'll find all the podcast episodes we've ever done, the videos,

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Speaker 1: the blog post links after our social media accounts, and

647
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Speaker 1: on each and every podcast we're putting down these days,

648
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Speaker 1: you know, we're making a point to have a podcast

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Speaker 1: landing page. It's gonna have some cool art, it's gonna

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Speaker 1: have some links to other related podcast is gonna if

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Speaker 1: there are some outside materials of of note, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: link to that. Sometimes we'll have a gallery to go

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Speaker 1: along with the episode and we'll have a link to

654
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Speaker 1: that of course. So so if you haven't gotten stuff

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Speaker 1: to Blow your mind dot com, uh, do yourself a favorite,

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Speaker 1: go check out. Yeah, there's lots of photos of fully

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Speaker 1: clothed man just wink wink. Okay, I'm not gonna find

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Speaker 1: that in a lot of places. Okay, I try now,

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Speaker 1: I try to include lots of photos of fully dressed

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Speaker 1: women too. I keep it. I keep it even sometimes

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Speaker 1: sometimes we get some skins, sometimes not sometimes sometimes they're animals,

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Speaker 1: sometimes their plans. I want our plant listeners to feel included. Indeed, um,

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Speaker 1: all right, and uh, if you've got some ideas on

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Speaker 1: this percolating, please do send them to us. So you

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Speaker 1: can do that by sending an email to blow the

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Speaker 1: mind at house touff works dot com for more on

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Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Does it, How stuff

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Speaker 1: works dot com