Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to It Could Happen Here,
Speaker 1: a podcast about things falling apart and occasionally about how
Speaker 1: to put them back together again. And today we have
Speaker 1: a special episode we're gonna be talking about a place
Speaker 1: where things did in fact fall apart and that people
Speaker 1: are you could say, still in the process of putting
Speaker 1: them back together again and trying to do it in
Speaker 1: a way that is much more equitable and better than
Speaker 1: things have been before the collapse. That is Rojaba in
Speaker 1: Northeast Syria. UM. I'm going to introduce kind of that
Speaker 1: concept in h I'll do it right now. Basically if
Speaker 1: you if you don't know anything about this, you might
Speaker 1: check out our podcast The Women's War UM. But it
Speaker 1: is a it is an autonomous region, not a state
Speaker 1: in northeast Syria that is not under the control of
Speaker 1: the Assad regime UM or of any other state in
Speaker 1: the area. It's an independent UM community that is based
Speaker 1: on some pretty radical it's it's organ to zation is
Speaker 1: based on some pretty radical political philosophies UM in large
Speaker 1: part ones that were sort of initially explored by a
Speaker 1: man named Murray Buchin, who is an American social theorist
Speaker 1: and anarchists anarchist political philosopher Um and some of his
Speaker 1: ideas were adopted by the leader of a militant group
Speaker 1: in the region called the p K k Um And
Speaker 1: the leader of that group was a guy in a
Speaker 1: Turkish prison named of Dula Augelan, who was you might say,
Speaker 1: a Kurdish freedom fighter. Um Augelon encountered books ideas and
Speaker 1: started writing his own books of political theory that we're
Speaker 1: kind of based off of them. And then when uh,
Speaker 1: two thousand thirteen, you get the Syrian Civil War reaches
Speaker 1: its kind of height, Isis becomes the thing. Suddenly the
Speaker 1: government's not in this area that has a large Kurtish population,
Speaker 1: Northeast Syria, and you know, people who are followers of
Speaker 1: Augelan takeover and start as they're fighting. Isis instituting this
Speaker 1: kind of radical feminist, egalitarian vision of society which is
Speaker 1: currently under attacked by the Turkish government, which is what
Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about. So I want to introduce
Speaker 1: our guests for today. First off, we have have James
Speaker 1: Stout and we have Chris on the call from our
Speaker 1: normal Cool Zone team, and then our guests today are
Speaker 1: Debbie book Chin Debtie is a journalist and author and
Speaker 1: co editor of the Next Revolution, Popular Assemblies and the
Speaker 1: Promise of Direct Democracy. UM. And then we also have
Speaker 1: Megan Bodette from the Kurdish Peace Institute, where she is
Speaker 1: the director of research. UM. Welcome to the show, Megan
Speaker 1: and Debbie. Thank you, it's great to be here. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much, really appreciate it. Yeah, thank you both
Speaker 1: for your time. I think maybe to start us out, Megan, UM,
Speaker 1: would you be willing to talk a little bit about
Speaker 1: why the Turkish government is so aggressive towards this independent
Speaker 1: region in northeast Syria and kind of what the situation
Speaker 1: on the ground is now. Yeah, absolutely so. For some background, essentially,
Speaker 1: since the division of the Middle East into the modern
Speaker 1: nation states that exist there today after World War One,
Speaker 1: with the agreements by European powers, the Kurdish people have
Speaker 1: been divided between four different states Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and Syria,
Speaker 1: and all of those states have had governments that have
Speaker 1: been ethno nationalists, that have been repressive, that have not
Speaker 1: provided Kurds and other ethnic and religious minorities equal citizenship rights, UM,
Speaker 1: to participate in politics and to practice their culture, to
Speaker 1: speak their language. UM. In addition to denying many of
Speaker 1: these rights to many of their other citizens of different
Speaker 1: ethnicities and religions as well. And so as a result
Speaker 1: of this repression, and the repression in Turkey was some
Speaker 1: of the strongest and most systemic um the Kurdish people
Speaker 1: in these regions have continued to struggle for and demand
Speaker 1: self determination and freedom in different political forms. What happened
Speaker 1: in Turkey in the nineteen twenties and the nineteen thirties,
Speaker 1: there were Kurdish revolts against the new um Turkish Republic,
Speaker 1: which was a very autocratic nation state that denied the
Speaker 1: existence of all non Turkish ethnicities. And these revolts were
Speaker 1: all violently put down with attacks that not only targeted
Speaker 1: those who tried to resist these policies of assimilation, but
Speaker 1: that also resulted in um Turkish you know, mass violence
Speaker 1: against Kurdish civilians in these regions. You had forced deportations,
Speaker 1: you had ethnic cleansing, you had all kinds of brutal
Speaker 1: violence against civilians in order to specifically create this homogeneous
Speaker 1: Turkish ethnic identity in Kurdish regions. And so after this
Speaker 1: period of time, there were um there was a period
Speaker 1: wherein there was less resistance, and I think, you know,
Speaker 1: the Turkish government believed that the Kurdish problem had been
Speaker 1: solved by force. They had successfully been able to kill
Speaker 1: or assimilate all of the Kurdish people. But in the
Speaker 1: nineteen seventies and the nineteen eighties, sort of concurrent with
Speaker 1: many national liberation movements around the world, you had the
Speaker 1: beginning of the PKK or the Kurdistan Workers Parties national
Speaker 1: liberation struggle. Now, they began as a socialist movement seeking
Speaker 1: an independent and socialist Kurdish state, and they saw Kurdistan
Speaker 1: as a colony that was occupied by Turkey, and with
Speaker 1: the colonialism of Turkey in Kurdistan, was supported by imperialist
Speaker 1: powers in the rest of the world as well, and
Speaker 1: they sought to write that as other national liberation movements
Speaker 1: in Africa, Asia, Latin America many places at the time
Speaker 1: did with an armed struggle for independence. And in responding
Speaker 1: to the PKK's formation and armed struggle, the Turkish state
Speaker 1: once again, rather than acceding to any Kurdish demands, they
Speaker 1: responded with brutal, violent oppression of not only Kurds who
Speaker 1: were active in the armed struggle, not only politically active Kurds,
Speaker 1: but on all forms of Kurdish identity. After the military
Speaker 1: coup in Turkey in nineteen eighty, the Kurdish language was banned.
Speaker 1: UM Kurds were imprisoned on false charges or no charges
Speaker 1: at all. UM torture was prevalent, show trials were prevalent.
Speaker 1: UM any kind of publication or other public interaction in
Speaker 1: Kurdish was completely illegal. So there was this full scale
Speaker 1: effort to repress the Kurds and any other progressive segments
Speaker 1: of society in Turkey that would have supported them, and
Speaker 1: as the conflict went on, Turkey did very little to change.
Speaker 1: By the nineteen nineties, the success of the Kurdish movement
Speaker 1: had forced the state to recalibrate, as had developments in
Speaker 1: Iraqi Kurdistan with Kords, they're achieving autonomy and so you
Speaker 1: started to have the ability of Kurdish political actors to
Speaker 1: work within the system. We saw the development of pro
Speaker 1: Kurdish legal political parties at that time, but there was
Speaker 1: still very severe repression of any and all things Kurdish
Speaker 1: as they made their demands, even of those who increasingly
Speaker 1: attempted to make demands peacefully. So the conflict went on
Speaker 1: throughout the nineteen nineties and the two thousands and to
Speaker 1: this day UM despite a peace process between the government
Speaker 1: of Turkey and the PKK and the Kurdish movement between
Speaker 1: and UM. That process failed. When Radwan's government saw that
Speaker 1: it was allowing for Kurds to take advantage of expanded
Speaker 1: democratic space in Turkey organized and achieve electoral political success,
Speaker 1: the government abandoned its commitments and sadly returned to war,
Speaker 1: and the conflict has been going on ever since and
Speaker 1: has included, you know, again, not only this military component,
Speaker 1: but this component of crushing all forms of organized Kurdish
Speaker 1: political and cultural expression. So what we've been seeing in
Speaker 1: Turkey over the past UM nearly a decade, now more
Speaker 1: than a half decade, is the repression of the pro
Speaker 1: Kurdish political opposition in parliament, the People's Democratic Party or
Speaker 1: the HDP. UM. We've seen repression of Kurdish media, attacks
Speaker 1: on Kurdish journalists. UM, we've seen any kind of Kurdish activism,
Speaker 1: not only UM that that's explicitly political, but any kind
Speaker 1: of acknowledgment of the Kurdish language, of Kurdish colors, of
Speaker 1: Kurdish clothing very readily criminalized and this campaign of attacking
Speaker 1: and repressing all things Kurdish has of course expanded beyond
Speaker 1: Turkey's borders. So Turkey opposes North Anys Syria because the
Speaker 1: Syrian Kurds have created a form of autonomous governance that
Speaker 1: protects and promotes Kurdish rights, because they have done so
Speaker 1: in the framework of the Kurdish freedom movement that has
Speaker 1: its roots in Turkey UM and in Ochelan's ideas, as
Speaker 1: you explained, and because they've been able to create a
Speaker 1: successful alternative to the very sort of nationalist project that
Speaker 1: the modern Turkish state is based on. You know, I
Speaker 1: would say that the Turkish Kurdish conflict, and I don't
Speaker 1: like to call it that, but that is what most
Speaker 1: people call it today, is really a conflict now over
Speaker 1: to competing visions of regional order with Turkeys based on
Speaker 1: the right ring wing neoliberal nation state and the Kurdish
Speaker 1: movement's vision of a Middle East based on self determination, liberation,
Speaker 1: equality for women, and other values not only for birds,
Speaker 1: but for all people. So because Northern East Syria represents
Speaker 1: UM both Kurdish success and in creating an autonomous region,
Speaker 1: and it represents these ideas of the Kurdish freedom movement
Speaker 1: that challenge Turkish National Project UM. Turkey has been trying
Speaker 1: to destroy the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria
Speaker 1: by all possible means for a very long time now.
Speaker 1: They've invaded Syrian territory twice to attack the Autonomous Administration
Speaker 1: and the SDF, the Syrian Democratic Forces, once in a
Speaker 1: Frina in two thousand and eighteen Afrina Is in northwestern Syria,
Speaker 1: and then once in two thousand nineteen after UM, you
Speaker 1: know Trump and air Tawan's phone call that we all
Speaker 1: infamously remember, in Seri Kanier and tal Abiad in northeastern Syria.
Speaker 1: So you've had these two invasions and occupations of UM
Speaker 1: North and East Syria's territory that have included not only
Speaker 1: the terrible violence of invasion and occupation, but also all
Speaker 1: kinds of crimes against civilians who remained. We've seen uptakes
Speaker 1: in violence and abuse of women, ethnically motivated, religiously motivated
Speaker 1: hatred and persecution that's driven virtually all of the non
Speaker 1: Arab and non Muslim people living in these regions to
Speaker 1: flee their homes. Attacks on anyone who is perceived as
Speaker 1: having collaborated with the prior administration all being carried out
Speaker 1: by Turkey and Turkish back Syrian militia groups. So we've
Speaker 1: seen the persecution of the civilians in these areas with
Speaker 1: the intent of changing demographics and installing not only a
Speaker 1: government sympathetic to Turkey and the military structure sympathetic to Turkey,
Speaker 1: but also removing the social base for the Autonomous Administration's project.
Speaker 1: And then, in addition to these all out attacks on
Speaker 1: the Autonomous Administration in these regions, Turkey continues to threaten
Speaker 1: the territory that North Aneast Syria does have left, which
Speaker 1: is still nearly one third of Syrian territory concentrated in
Speaker 1: the northeast. There's been an escalating campaign of drone strikes
Speaker 1: targeting leaders in the Autonomous Administration and the STF, as
Speaker 1: well as Syrian civilians. Turkey is cutting water access to
Speaker 1: North Aneast Syria by restricting the flow of the Euphrates River.
Speaker 1: This is an agricultural region. People depend on that water
Speaker 1: for all aspects of life um and certainly for the economy.
Speaker 1: That's caused a great deal of suffering. The entire Turkish
Speaker 1: Syrian border is very heavily militarized, when you drive by
Speaker 1: it and you see the wall and you know, very
Speaker 1: lit up at night with the barbed wire and everything,
Speaker 1: and you just look at you know, these civilian towns,
Speaker 1: very peaceful on both sides. It's something very disturbing to see. UM.
Speaker 1: But it's a highly militarized border and it is completely
Speaker 1: sealed border. UM. Turkey does not trade with North in
Speaker 1: East Syria and supports an international economic blockade on the region,
Speaker 1: including by pressuring its allies to restrict the access of
Speaker 1: goods to North and East Syria. So there's economics they're
Speaker 1: going on there. There are really every tactic that Turkey
Speaker 1: is able to use, whether military, economic, environmental, political, or
Speaker 1: anything else in order to crush and destroy on with
Speaker 1: any serious political project and force the Kurdish people and
Speaker 1: the other peoples of that region to flee so that
Speaker 1: there is no base for such a project again in
Speaker 1: the future. They're doing everything they can to achieve that outcome.
Speaker 1: So the situation is very difficult, and it is a
Speaker 1: direct result of Turkey's you know, century old Kurdish question
Speaker 1: that it has been unable and unwilling to honestly and
Speaker 1: in good faith a peaceful solution to UM. And we'll
Speaker 1: get to it later, but the international community has played
Speaker 1: a very big role in ensuring that that conflict goes
Speaker 1: on with all of those negative consequences for Northeast Syria. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, and that's one of the obviously Turkey is
Speaker 1: the second largest military in NATO UM and has you know,
Speaker 1: one of the things that is such like so messy
Speaker 1: about this is that on paper and on the ground,
Speaker 1: in fact, the United States has been supporting the Autonomous
Speaker 1: Region UM in Northeast Syria and particularly the White PG
Speaker 1: and the White PJ, which is you know, the militia
Speaker 1: essentially um as as partners in the fight against ISIS.
Speaker 1: And still to this day, right now, there's an operation
Speaker 1: going on in the Al Whole camp, which is where
Speaker 1: a lot of ISIS prisoners are held. UM that is
Speaker 1: like a coalition supported operation. At the same time that
Speaker 1: the United States is doing this, we're selling weapons to
Speaker 1: the people who are have essentially declared the folks that
Speaker 1: are military has been aiding a terrorist organization UM, which
Speaker 1: is a peculiar in frustrating situation to say the least. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And and actually the other thing that's happening, Robert is
Speaker 1: that you know, Turkey, while it's threatening a full scale invasion,
Speaker 1: they've been doing all of these things that Megan described
Speaker 1: sort of on this sort of low intensity warfare scale,
Speaker 1: a kind of military strategy that uses a whole variety
Speaker 1: of tactics, um that are short of you know, a
Speaker 1: full scale invasion, which still may come. And so you know,
Speaker 1: there's these extra judicial killings of uh, some of the
Speaker 1: leaders of the SDF, which is the Syrian Democratic Forces
Speaker 1: which is the sort of umbrella group of the two
Speaker 1: militia Kurdish militias that you described, and which also includes
Speaker 1: many Arab fighters and others who have who have been
Speaker 1: central and defeating ISIS at the cost I might add
Speaker 1: of about thirteen thousand lives, you know, and um, you know,
Speaker 1: and the and the use of their proxy groups like
Speaker 1: the Syrian so called you know s N, a Syrian
Speaker 1: National Army, which is really you know, a group of
Speaker 1: jihadi militias that Turkey has kind of assembled and now
Speaker 1: completely is responsive to Turkey and and is the sort
Speaker 1: of shock troops for when they went did go into
Speaker 1: Afra and and for these other invasions, um, you know,
Speaker 1: economic pressures as Megan described. But the point is that
Speaker 1: this kind of warfare, it produces these sort of ongoing
Speaker 1: low level attacks, but it keeps it sort of off
Speaker 1: the radar of the of the bigger political and and
Speaker 1: and media machine, and therefore it keeps it from getting
Speaker 1: the attention that it really deserves in Western societies. It
Speaker 1: also has the impact of displacing hundreds of thousands of people,
Speaker 1: and and uh, you know, and and many hundreds have
Speaker 1: also been killed. I'm sure probably you're familiar with some
Speaker 1: of the recent bombings by drone that have been occurring
Speaker 1: in Rojiva, which you know, including many civilians, school children Turkey.
Speaker 1: Turkeys doesn't care at all about about who gets hit,
Speaker 1: and they have been very aggressive, um, without any respect
Speaker 1: for civilian cash sualties as well. So you know. So,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's it's important to also just
Speaker 1: note that this democratic project is in Syria is a
Speaker 1: deep threat to Turkey because and and that every time
Speaker 1: Airdoan steps up these military sort of disaggression, um, it
Speaker 1: leads him to bryce slightly in the polls, which is
Speaker 1: something that's important to him because he has an election
Speaker 1: coming up next year. So there's that sort of political
Speaker 1: dimension to it. But the fact is that that Rojeva
Speaker 1: is basically a women's revolution. Women are involved in every
Speaker 1: aspect of running society there, the political, the social, the economic,
Speaker 1: and Turkey is essentially a femicidal state. You know it
Speaker 1: not only reviews women within within Turkey is less than
Speaker 1: human where husbands can basically get away with murdering their wives.
Speaker 1: But you know, it targets girls with drones, as it
Speaker 1: did on August eighteenth when a Turkish rome bombed to
Speaker 1: you and supported education center for young girls and in
Speaker 1: Herseka and Rosava. So you know, it's it's very much,
Speaker 1: as Megan said, a war of ideologies as well. Again,
Speaker 1: one of the things that's so frustrating with this so historically,
Speaker 1: the reason why Turkey was it was so important for
Speaker 1: NATO to get Turkey as a member is because that's
Speaker 1: essentially NATO's eastern flank. If you're still thinking about that
Speaker 1: big theoretical conflict between you know, Russia and UH and
Speaker 1: the Western democracies. That was why, you know, part of
Speaker 1: why why initially like Turkey was such a valued partner,
Speaker 1: and then as time has gone on, it's um primarily
Speaker 1: one of the big things is we have a massive
Speaker 1: air base in Turkey in sirlik Um, where a number
Speaker 1: of US nuclear warheads are kept. UM. So there's a
Speaker 1: tremendous fear cowardice might be a better way to say it,
Speaker 1: on behalf of politicians in the United States and other
Speaker 1: Western countries to actually engage with the ethnic cleansings UM
Speaker 1: and with the human rights abuses that the Turkish government,
Speaker 1: particularly under Air to One has has continued. And one
Speaker 1: of the things that's really frustrating about this, you know,
Speaker 1: if you think about the way in which ISIS was
Speaker 1: discussed by US media, was discussed by conservatives by Donald
Speaker 1: Trump during his campaign, you know, it was this ultimate boogeyman. Well,
Speaker 1: a huge chunk of the support for for ISSIS and
Speaker 1: in fact, even logistics for some of their fighters came
Speaker 1: allegedly courtesy of the Turkish state, and there's some evidence
Speaker 1: for this. There's certainly evidence of support for wounded fighters
Speaker 1: and kind of a a lax policy that allowed a
Speaker 1: lot of people to come through Turkey and get into
Speaker 1: northeast Syria to fight UM. And you know, as you
Speaker 1: noted earlier, thirteen thousand, somewhere around their fighters men and
Speaker 1: women UM in the YPG and J died fighting ISIS
Speaker 1: in you know UM, and we're you know, not just
Speaker 1: fighting ISIS kind of with the backing of the United States.
Speaker 1: But prior to getting any support, one of the most
Speaker 1: important things they did the while ISIS was on the
Speaker 1: move in Iraq as well as Syria, they were carrying
Speaker 1: out an active ethnic cleansing, a genocidal operation in Mount
Speaker 1: Sinjar against the z D s UM and that was
Speaker 1: only really stopped because while they were fighting a defensive
Speaker 1: war in northeast Syria, the YPG sent fighters into Iraq
Speaker 1: to stop the genocide UM and they were successful in this.
Speaker 1: You know, you talked to IS. I have a lot
Speaker 1: of y ZD survivors of the genocide and they'll say,
Speaker 1: the only reason we got out is because of you know,
Speaker 1: the YPG, UM and the p k K and the PEAK. Well,
Speaker 1: and that is that it is. It is, so we
Speaker 1: should we could talk a little bit about the p
Speaker 1: k K. They are the the YPG and J and
Speaker 1: the SDF, which is kind of the umbrella organization are
Speaker 1: not recognized as terroristorganizations by the United States or by
Speaker 1: most Western democracies. The p k K is recognized as
Speaker 1: a terrorist organization. Turkeys allegations would be that the YPG
Speaker 1: and j and and other you know militias are just
Speaker 1: p KK affiliates. Um. The reality is that they are
Speaker 1: in quite a fact quite closely tied um uh and
Speaker 1: you will you know, but also there it's not the
Speaker 1: exact like when you're in Rajaba and you encounter people
Speaker 1: who are p KK, people will speak about them differently
Speaker 1: than they will talk about other people who are kind
Speaker 1: of you know, they're the folks from the mountains is
Speaker 1: the term that I here use the most. But the
Speaker 1: thing is, see, here's the problem. The problem is that
Speaker 1: that whatever the p k k's history is and has been,
Speaker 1: and it's where more than we can get into, the
Speaker 1: p k K made a dramatic shift in its ideology
Speaker 1: and has done everything possible to try to restart peace
Speaker 1: negotiations with Turkey. So first of all, you know, there
Speaker 1: are several as Megan mentioned before, there was a piece
Speaker 1: initiative that went on for a few years that then
Speaker 1: everyone decided wasn't um you know, beneficial to him, so
Speaker 1: he stopped it. But the PKK and as recently as
Speaker 1: I think a year or two ago, the leader of
Speaker 1: the p KK and the Mountains right Najamil Bayek wrote
Speaker 1: an op ed for The Washington Post saying, we want
Speaker 1: to have talks, We want to have a reconciliation with Turkey.
Speaker 1: We're not asking for separate Cornish state. All we want
Speaker 1: is some degree of autonomy. And and uh, you know,
Speaker 1: and and it's actually to the enduring shame of the
Speaker 1: Western media, including the New York Times, that they continue
Speaker 1: to talk about them as a separatist organization. But that's
Speaker 1: another story as well. The fact is that these um
Speaker 1: ideologies that they both subscribe to p k K and
Speaker 1: the White PG YPG, regardless of whether to what extent
Speaker 1: they may be related. The political ideology is an ideology
Speaker 1: about direct democracy. It's about empowering people at the local level.
Speaker 1: It's about making sure that every adult and also the
Speaker 1: youth have a say in their communities. And it's as
Speaker 1: grassroots democratic as anything that you could ever imagine. And
Speaker 1: so really, you would think that the United States, you know,
Speaker 1: would understand that there's certainly no threat that the neither
Speaker 1: the YPG nor the YPG has ever shown any aggression
Speaker 1: towards Turkey, which is what makes this idea of a
Speaker 1: buff the idea that they need a buffer zone kind
Speaker 1: of a joke, you know. So really it's it's an
Speaker 1: ideological shift that's so profound and so empowering to local
Speaker 1: people that it's also something that frankly, those of us
Speaker 1: who are on the left should be much more supportive of,
Speaker 1: I think, than than people have been so far. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, the thing that is most remarkable because I
Speaker 1: spent a lot, I spent more time, certainly in Iraq
Speaker 1: than in Syria. And we should note here that we're
Speaker 1: talking about Syria today and we're talking about Rojava. Turkish
Speaker 1: aggression against particularly UM, against the p KK, but against
Speaker 1: you know, Kurd's kind of in an ethnic sense, UM
Speaker 1: extends beyond Syria. Turkey has illegally attacked Iraq and in
Speaker 1: fact moved troops into Iraqi soil a number of times,
Speaker 1: escalating within the last year, and killed a substantial number
Speaker 1: of people in the in the Kurdish regional government territories. UM.
Speaker 1: So that is also occurring here. Although it's it's worth
Speaker 1: noting again because people mix this up a lot. What's
Speaker 1: happening in Kurdish control Iraq is profoundly different from what's
Speaker 1: happening in Rojava, and they're extremely different political organization. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think it's also worth mentioning that it's not just
Speaker 1: UM Kurdish groups have been attacking in Iraq. There's been
Speaker 1: a bun of attacks, like a yeah, it's killed a
Speaker 1: bunch of those people too. It is the yeah, they're
Speaker 1: just they're doing the genocide again. Yeah, I think, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's u it's interesting, you know, I uh, it's also
Speaker 1: kind of worth. The thing that was perhaps most surprising
Speaker 1: to me there was the degree to which people I
Speaker 1: would meet who were just like in many cases just
Speaker 1: like kind of you know, terrorism police assays guys, or
Speaker 1: people who were like working traffic checkpoints, are working in
Speaker 1: the farms. There were people were really careful to not
Speaker 1: refer or talk to like what the project was as
Speaker 1: a state, and it's it's not on a state a state,
Speaker 1: it's an autonomous region. That's one of the terms I
Speaker 1: heard the most is the autonomous regions, which is is
Speaker 1: really interesting to me. And it's it's hard. It's something
Speaker 1: certainly like mainstream media writing about it, UM seems to
Speaker 1: have trouble grasping, as you say, And it's it's interesting
Speaker 1: because obviously, Debbie, in case folks haven't put it together
Speaker 1: you are the daughter of Murray book Chin, who is
Speaker 1: the who is the political philosopher whose ideas formed a
Speaker 1: significant core of of sort of what the organizational structure
Speaker 1: in is. UM. Well, I just want to say, first
Speaker 1: of all, thank you for that. But I also just
Speaker 1: want to say that I really want to remind everybody that,
Speaker 1: of course, you know, Abdullah Chelan read hundreds and hundreds
Speaker 1: of books, not just my dad's, so I mean, I
Speaker 1: appreciate that, but you know they have He has really
Speaker 1: especially placed emphasis on the need for any revolutionary project
Speaker 1: to have the liberation of women at its core. My
Speaker 1: dad talked a lot about hierarchy and patriarchy, but Chilan,
Speaker 1: by making women central, has really done something unique I think,
Speaker 1: you know, in in the history of because in the
Speaker 1: history of sort of revolutionary you know movements, because as
Speaker 1: many women who have participated in those movements in the
Speaker 1: past can tell you, it was always sure fight with
Speaker 1: us and will do with the women's issue when the
Speaker 1: revolution is over, and a Gelan turned that upside down,
Speaker 1: you know, and he said it's got to be a
Speaker 1: women's revolution. And the women in those movements over there
Speaker 1: really fought for that themselves. To UM, and one of
Speaker 1: the things that you know, it was most interesting for
Speaker 1: me to see, UM, was when I would go into
Speaker 1: meetings there with women in all kinds of different you know,
Speaker 1: military and civilian institutions and different cities across the region,
Speaker 1: that before I would even bring it up as a researcher,
Speaker 1: you know, women would say to me that if it
Speaker 1: weren't for A. Gelan's theories, we wouldn't have the organizations
Speaker 1: that we had, we wouldn't have the political power that
Speaker 1: we have. And they have this incredible articulation of how
Speaker 1: they use these ideas, you know, as inspiration for their
Speaker 1: own work and also as almost political cover to do
Speaker 1: kinds of things that wouldn't be accepted in other places
Speaker 1: because they can go to men who they work with
Speaker 1: who might be suspicious, but who you know, have this
Speaker 1: public stated claim to this ideology and they can say, well,
Speaker 1: Gelon's books say that society can never be free without
Speaker 1: women's liberation, that women's can have their own separate institutions.
Speaker 1: So they've been able to really take these ideas and
Speaker 1: expand on them and you know, push them and use
Speaker 1: them with their own practice. UM. And the way that
Speaker 1: the ideas came about themselves. One book that I would
Speaker 1: recommend anyone interested in the Kurdish movement, UM, in revolutionary
Speaker 1: women's movements anywhere in the world, and really any topic
Speaker 1: related to any of this to read is UM, the
Speaker 1: autobiography of Sakina Johnson's, who was the only woman present
Speaker 1: for the founding of the PKK and was really instrumental
Speaker 1: in organizing both the armed and civilian sides of the
Speaker 1: Kurdish women's movement in Turkey. UM there are pictures of
Speaker 1: her everywhere in Syria. She was assassinated in France in
Speaker 1: two thousand thirteen by Turkey nationalists affiliated with the state,
Speaker 1: likely suspected, you know, hoping to disrupt the peace negotiations
Speaker 1: that were ongoing at that time. But she's remembered everywhere
Speaker 1: in northeast Syria for her role, and you can see
Speaker 1: in her book her talking about seeing the inequalities that,
Speaker 1: as Debbie mentioned, women in socialist movements and revolutionary movements
Speaker 1: often faced where they were asked to, you know, be
Speaker 1: as committed to this struggle as their male comrades were,
Speaker 1: but we're still treated in very patriarchal ways by men
Speaker 1: that they worked with, because you know, the patriarchy embedded
Speaker 1: into these societies, and you see her talking about organizing
Speaker 1: women to overcome this. UM. And when you look at
Speaker 1: the history of the Kurdish movement moving into what you
Speaker 1: see in Northeast Syria as well, you know, women were
Speaker 1: really able to do so much in practice that the
Speaker 1: theory had to move to catch up to them. And
Speaker 1: then to take this new incredible theory of you know,
Speaker 1: women's oppression being the basis of all oppression UM and
Speaker 1: the form of oppression that you know must be addressed
Speaker 1: to free all members of society in all ways. You know,
Speaker 1: they took this and they continued to expand it so
Speaker 1: in a very difficult place in context to do so.
Speaker 1: I mean we know that in more UM, there's more
Speaker 1: violence against women, there's more discrimination, there's more emphasis on
Speaker 1: traditional gender rules. That this holds true across different societies
Speaker 1: and different conflicts. So they have UM that they face
Speaker 1: many challenges. They're up against a lot here, certainly, you know,
Speaker 1: with all the problems UM that they're facing in Northeast
Speaker 1: Syria because of conflict and poverty, UM, everything that Turkey
Speaker 1: is doing that we've discussed, So they're up against a
Speaker 1: lot and it's not easy, but they've really, you know,
Speaker 1: they've come incredibly far. Um. And seeing how you know,
Speaker 1: they've taken very high level theoretical ideas and then done
Speaker 1: so much in practice, and how their practice and theory
Speaker 1: from each other. Um, really one of the most incredible
Speaker 1: things to see over there. Um. And it's another reason
Speaker 1: why Turkey wants to destroy them, because arid Land does
Speaker 1: not believe that women can be equal to men. Um.
Speaker 1: He does not see male violence against women as a problem.
Speaker 1: And yeah, you know, as we've discussed, Turkey and the
Speaker 1: Kurdish movement couldn't be any more different on this question. No,
Speaker 1: And it's um, I think the thing because you know,
Speaker 1: going over there, I went with the eye as a
Speaker 1: journalist where like I had heard all these things and
Speaker 1: and Rojava has kind of become among some chunks of
Speaker 1: the left, chunks of the left that cause celeb in
Speaker 1: part because of you know, the achievements of the revolution
Speaker 1: in that space, and I wanted to see how legitimate
Speaker 1: is it? And um. Part of why you know I
Speaker 1: kind of went in with that attitude is that I
Speaker 1: had spent so much time in the Kurdish regions of Iraq,
Speaker 1: and if if you remember when the fighting against ISIS
Speaker 1: was at its height, there was a tremendous amount of
Speaker 1: coverage of the female Peshmerga and the fact that you know,
Speaker 1: the Kurds in northern Iraq, who were the worst force
Speaker 1: in Iraq that collapsed the least when ISIS was on
Speaker 1: the advance. Um, it's overstated how well they did. That's
Speaker 1: why the YPG needed to rescue the z e s
Speaker 1: At Sinjar Is. The the Kurdish military in northern Iraq
Speaker 1: just kind of bounced at that point. But um, you know,
Speaker 1: I had heard about you know these that that this
Speaker 1: woman's right situation is great in northern Iraq. It's very egalitarian.
Speaker 1: There's women fighters, and it is it's certainly and anyone
Speaker 1: who lives there will tell you much safer and easier
Speaker 1: to be a woman. In the KRG, the Kurdish region
Speaker 1: like control Kurdish Regional Government parts of Iraq than it
Speaker 1: is further south in the country. But that doesn't mean
Speaker 1: it's it's good. It is. It is more like certain
Speaker 1: things are somewhat more tolerated, there's more freedom, but it's
Speaker 1: still a very traditionalist society. And for example, I didn't
Speaker 1: see any female Peshmerga. UM, they did not make much
Speaker 1: of a presence on the ground and and there there
Speaker 1: their involvement in the fighting was exaggerated somewhat as part
Speaker 1: of a conscious pr strategy. UM. As soon as you
Speaker 1: cross in to northeast Syria, you see women manning and
Speaker 1: running checkpoints stations you see as you go in because
Speaker 1: there's like you know, they like you get like passport
Speaker 1: and stuff like looked at and you get like stamps
Speaker 1: and whatnot. When you kind of come into the to
Speaker 1: the region, UM, you see a lot of women like
Speaker 1: running that part of the operation. You go in to
Speaker 1: the actual country itself and there's we we visited a
Speaker 1: restaurant that was run by a collective of women who
Speaker 1: had all lost husbands in the fighting. We ran. We
Speaker 1: went to a farm that was all young women who
Speaker 1: had left their families who were very traditionalist in their
Speaker 1: religious attitude. UM. And and go on independent and of
Speaker 1: course you see um, female military units and female we
Speaker 1: saw mixed male and female like military policing units and stuff.
Speaker 1: And it's it's one of those things that if you
Speaker 1: are going there kind of with a critical eye to
Speaker 1: try and see how extensive the revolution can be. I
Speaker 1: can't imagine not being convinced of the reality of it,
Speaker 1: because it's it's just so start well also, Robert, you know,
Speaker 1: first of all, just to again, you could say a
Speaker 1: lot about what's going on in in Iraqi Kurdistan, but
Speaker 1: just to very quickly sum it up, I mean, it
Speaker 1: is a capitalist petrol state run by a plan the Barzanies,
Speaker 1: you know who who a crew basically all the wealth
Speaker 1: to themselves. And you can't even begin to compare it
Speaker 1: with with the kind of revolutionary project in Syria. So
Speaker 1: I mean, I just want to in case so people understand.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't want to use I hate to
Speaker 1: use the word socialist because it's such a it's so fraught,
Speaker 1: but you could the closest thing, you know, it's a
Speaker 1: it's built on a socialist economic model, except a better one,
Speaker 1: well more like what my father and what Abdullah clan
Speaker 1: have in mind, which my father called communalism, and this
Speaker 1: democratic confederalist model is based on cooperatives, you know, where
Speaker 1: people really do um have the means control the means
Speaker 1: production as much as possible. I mean, it's obviously all
Speaker 1: you know, still in formation, it's still growing and like
Speaker 1: the energy sector where things that you know are less
Speaker 1: like that. But are I hope in that direction. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean obviously no, this is certainly not some kind
Speaker 1: of perfect utopian in the middle of a war zone.
Speaker 1: But but as you pointed out, what you see when
Speaker 1: you go there is women so active in every aspect.
Speaker 1: I would add to to what the great examples you
Speaker 1: gave the women's houses to talk about that right where
Speaker 1: they are literally resolving so many problems for both men
Speaker 1: and women, you know, at the community level, and and
Speaker 1: so it's it's really quite an extraordinary you know, I
Speaker 1: guess what I want to say about it is that
Speaker 1: like if if we all got on board of you know,
Speaker 1: one of that that Cretan elon Musk's space ships and
Speaker 1: found a colony you know where they were doing this,
Speaker 1: we'd be cherishing it. We'd be going, oh my god.
Speaker 1: You know, look at these people. They're like they have
Speaker 1: a cooperative economy and they have women's councils at every level. Wow,
Speaker 1: men can't overrule women on a decision that comes to
Speaker 1: say women's bodies. Think here the Dobbs decision right on
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court. Women only women can can decide those
Speaker 1: issues that are related to women. And there there are
Speaker 1: councils at every level and people sending delegates, you know,
Speaker 1: meeting in their little villages and towns and communities and
Speaker 1: electing delegates to the next level. It is a true
Speaker 1: grassroots democracy, and it's ecological, and it's feminist. It's like
Speaker 1: if Ursula La Gwinn we're writing about it and the disgust,
Speaker 1: we'd all be going wow. So so really, you know,
Speaker 1: it's something that I think, especially anybody who considers themselves
Speaker 1: a feminist, you know, should be supporting and and certainly
Speaker 1: and I hope all of us do, you know, And
Speaker 1: and certainly anybody you know I would think who's an anarchist.
Speaker 1: To me, it's pretty close to an every anarchist's dream,
Speaker 1: you know. And and so I think, yeah, I just
Speaker 1: wanted to make that contrast with Iraq because I think
Speaker 1: it's really important, really goes to why the Kurdish project
Speaker 1: really needs very badly the support of people in the
Speaker 1: United States, because in so many ways, the United States
Speaker 1: kind of calls the shots about what can and cannot
Speaker 1: happen over there if you look at the problems they have,
Speaker 1: you know, to all of that. Because of course, all
Speaker 1: of these places are not perfect, and have you know,
Speaker 1: these serious issues alongside these serious achievements. Every issue that
Speaker 1: they have is an issue that any society would have
Speaker 1: if that society had been through ten years of war. Um,
Speaker 1: we're impoverished and blockaded from virtually all economic activity with
Speaker 1: the outside world if they had had to not only
Speaker 1: you know, fight the occupation of a group like ISIS,
Speaker 1: but then immediately turn around to fight a state army
Speaker 1: much larger than them, you know, bent on taking and
Speaker 1: occupying their territory. A society where people fear going outside
Speaker 1: because they don't know if they'll be in the wrong
Speaker 1: place at the wrong time when there'll be a drone
Speaker 1: strike on a local military leader going around doing their
Speaker 1: job keeping their communities safe from ISIS, or a local
Speaker 1: political leader going around doing their job trying to you know,
Speaker 1: build this new system. So I think when we look
Speaker 1: at the flaws, their flaws that are the result of
Speaker 1: in large part poverty and conflict and all of the
Speaker 1: compounding crisis crises that the people of North Aneas Syria
Speaker 1: have to face because of what they've gone through, you know,
Speaker 1: as Debbie mentioned, much at the hands of larger powers.
Speaker 1: So much of what happens in Syria is up to
Speaker 1: what the United States wants, up to what Russia wants,
Speaker 1: up to what Turkey wants. UM. All of these countries
Speaker 1: and regions, you know, with different priorities, different outlooks, but
Speaker 1: it somehow happens that at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: you know, the one thing they can all agree on
Speaker 1: is that, Um, it's okay to sell out the autonomous administration,
Speaker 1: It's okay to have consequences for them. You know, if
Speaker 1: the Courtish people suffer, the zd people suffer, the people
Speaker 1: of northern East Syria, all of these different demographics, if
Speaker 1: they're the people who are victimized, you know, because they
Speaker 1: don't have a state, because they're fighting for something different,
Speaker 1: because they're challenging the status quo, it's okay if they're
Speaker 1: the ones who faced the consequences. We saw this, you know,
Speaker 1: with what happened with Isis. We saw this with the
Speaker 1: complete international silence when a fren was invaded, with the
Speaker 1: you know, piecemeal response that stopped the Turkish invasion in
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, but allowed them to convert what they were
Speaker 1: doing to this kind of low intensity war. UM. You know,
Speaker 1: with a terrible ceasefire, you know, with undefined lines, and
Speaker 1: with these drone strikes being allowed in air is where
Speaker 1: Russia and the United States, both of which have agreements
Speaker 1: with Turkey, are active, um, you know, and both of
Speaker 1: whom tolerate this. So essentially every powerful interest in Syria
Speaker 1: can agree on, you know, ensuring that the autonomous administration
Speaker 1: comes in last. And as people in the US, you know,
Speaker 1: anyone who considers themselves on the left, who considers themselves
Speaker 1: a feminist, who cares about persecuted ethnic and religious minorities,
Speaker 1: who opposes endless war and militarist foreign policy that props
Speaker 1: up autocrats and you know, props up far right regimes.
Speaker 1: Anyone with any of those values should be very concerned
Speaker 1: about the situation in Northeast Syria right now and should
Speaker 1: be looking at what we can do to UH, to
Speaker 1: get our government to stop supporting some of these very
Speaker 1: harmful policies against the region, you know, even while it
Speaker 1: claims to be supporting their fight against isis. What can
Speaker 1: people listening here, presumably most of you are in the
Speaker 1: United States or Canada or Western Europe, What can people
Speaker 1: listening here, particularly in the US, do they have an
Speaker 1: impact to help. Well, we could talk about that. Um,
Speaker 1: we could have an entire other podcast episode on that,
Speaker 1: because there's a lot to be done. But you know,
Speaker 1: to summarize in a few words, the way that the
Speaker 1: United States supports Turkey's war on the Kurdish people, all
Speaker 1: the peoples of the region and the Kurdish National Liberation
Speaker 1: movement is through military cooperation and support, through diplomatic cooperation
Speaker 1: and support, intelligence sharing, and these pro war legal pretexts.
Speaker 1: So go tell Congress that you don't want them to
Speaker 1: send weapons to Turkey. There's an EP six team sale
Speaker 1: right now. That Um, it was really great to see
Speaker 1: the majority of Congress in Looting. All of the squad members,
Speaker 1: people like AOHC. Rashida Talai, Bilhan Omar all opposed that sale.
Speaker 1: So opposing arms sales very important something that there's momentum
Speaker 1: there for um and that there's momentum among progressives therefore,
Speaker 1: which is very heartening. Opposing military aid and security assistance
Speaker 1: to Turkey. You know, I've done research on this. U
Speaker 1: S Security assistance has trained senior Turkish officials, including the
Speaker 1: country's current defense minister and several perpetrators of the violent
Speaker 1: repressive nineteen eighty military coup. Obviously, we should not be
Speaker 1: training coup plotters and war criminals. That is not something
Speaker 1: I think most people learning this want their tax dollars
Speaker 1: to go to. So calling for an end to U
Speaker 1: S security assistance to Turkey very important in addition to
Speaker 1: ending those arms sales and challenging the pro war legal
Speaker 1: pretexts and designations that allowed Turkey to get this kind
Speaker 1: of Western support. Or you know, a wonderful thing that
Speaker 1: we saw a couple of weeks back was the Democratic
Speaker 1: Socialists of America, the largest socialist organization in the US,
Speaker 1: saying that they oppose the terror designation of the PKK
Speaker 1: and believe it should be delisted. That's something that progressive
Speaker 1: support very strongly. In Europe. We've seen, you know, calls
Speaker 1: from places like Ireland and South Africa where people know
Speaker 1: a lot about you know what terror designations and you know,
Speaker 1: the criminalization of struggles, you know, can can have impacts
Speaker 1: on conflict resolution. You know, people who participated in these
Speaker 1: kinds of post conflict processes in some of these places
Speaker 1: saying get rid of the designation. It's harmful for peace.
Speaker 1: You know, it will be difficult to end this less
Speaker 1: violently without it. So that's something where you know, it
Speaker 1: seems the international case for it is something that's rather obvious,
Speaker 1: and where pressure in the US on the US designation
Speaker 1: to remove it would be an important step for facilitating
Speaker 1: dialogue and a negotiated end to this conflict. So understanding
Speaker 1: how the US supports Turkey's wars on the Kurdish people
Speaker 1: and opposing all of those different policies and programs as
Speaker 1: one of the most important things that we can do
Speaker 1: to say this war is not in our name. We
Speaker 1: stand with the people of northeast Syria, with the people
Speaker 1: in Turkey suffering from Turkish authoritarianism, with the people in Iraqi, Kurdistan,
Speaker 1: uzd S and Shngal being bombed by Turkish drones. When
Speaker 1: we say that we don't want to support this war,
Speaker 1: we stand with all of those people. Um And I
Speaker 1: think that that kind of action against arms, sales, security assistance,
Speaker 1: and pro war legal pretexts could be a really great
Speaker 1: base for solidarity opposing endless war in the Middle East
Speaker 1: and standing up for you know, peacefully ending this conflict.
Speaker 1: Um And it would align us with progressives all around
Speaker 1: the world, and you know, people who really believe in
Speaker 1: in peace and in ending these kinds of things. And
Speaker 1: and if I could just add, you know, one one
Speaker 1: element to that would also be really pressing for a
Speaker 1: diplomatic solution to the whole so called Kurdish question, because
Speaker 1: Rojeva will remain in danger as long as air Dewan
Speaker 1: and and his and his party think that they can
Speaker 1: basically that they have to be fighting Kurds because you know,
Speaker 1: to them, as Megan said before, Rojeva is an extension
Speaker 1: of their own Kurds and of the PKK. So what
Speaker 1: but but what really needs to happen, just as as
Speaker 1: it happened in South Africa, is there has to be
Speaker 1: a negotiated settlement. One of the things that would help
Speaker 1: with this, and there are movements that people can get
Speaker 1: involved with if they want, would be free in a
Speaker 1: Chelan who has been in a sitting in a Turkish
Speaker 1: jail for the last twenty two years because he is
Speaker 1: sort of the Nelson Mandela really of of the Kurdish
Speaker 1: freedom movement, and he's would be involved in these negotiations
Speaker 1: and was even while he was in jail. But really,
Speaker 1: you know, a jail person can't really do that properly,
Speaker 1: So pressing for a diplomatic solution because basically rat one
Speaker 1: uses the p k k UM and the listing of
Speaker 1: the PKK as a terrorist organization to basically kill all
Speaker 1: Kurds everywhere, and in order to stop that, somehow there
Speaker 1: has to be a break in this. And so I
Speaker 1: think that, you know, people, there are certainly plenty of
Speaker 1: peace organizations and people who want to work on peace,
Speaker 1: and I think this is a really important demand that
Speaker 1: they begin that the United States and the United States
Speaker 1: has nothing to lose by pressuring Turkey to engage in
Speaker 1: negotiations with the p k k This is an hour war.
Speaker 1: The p KK has never done anything to the United States.
Speaker 1: It would make, as Megan said, for a lasting peace
Speaker 1: in the entire Middle East, And would you know, And
Speaker 1: and so what I would say is, first of all, folks,
Speaker 1: would be great if people who want more information about
Speaker 1: any of this could contact the organization that I helped
Speaker 1: co found, the Emergency Committee for Rojeva, which is at
Speaker 1: defend Rojeva dot org. And we have scripts to call
Speaker 1: congress Person's resources and we even have fun monthly meetings
Speaker 1: that people can come to. Um you know, and there's
Speaker 1: of course a lot of information at Megan's website also
Speaker 1: Kurdish Peace dot org. But you know, one of the
Speaker 1: things that people could do is go out and talk
Speaker 1: to their communities, whether it's a religious community or a
Speaker 1: labor union or a food coop or your kids nursery
Speaker 1: school or reading group, women's group, and sort of talk
Speaker 1: and and help because there's a lot of people who
Speaker 1: surprisingly really don't know much about Roojeva. I think maybe
Speaker 1: because they're the cause, the Zabatistas are a little closer
Speaker 1: geographically that that project is a bit better known, you know,
Speaker 1: So talking to people and getting people engaged, and for example,
Speaker 1: if there's anybody listening from New Jersey. Bob Menendez is
Speaker 1: the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and he's
Speaker 1: been pretty hostile towards Air to one and and keeping
Speaker 1: on him with phone calls emails is a great way,
Speaker 1: you know, for for our m As somebody who worked
Speaker 1: in Washington for a while when I worked for Bernie Sanders,
Speaker 1: I know that these guys listen to their constituents, you know,
Speaker 1: and if they get enough calls, they start to pay
Speaker 1: attention to those things that they come around. We could
Speaker 1: even get, you know, somebody to send a letter around
Speaker 1: to their colleagues in Congress saying, you know, it's time
Speaker 1: to start peace negotiations. Those kinds of things do have
Speaker 1: impact because, as I said before, unfortunately the United States
Speaker 1: is really at the helm and on so many ways
Speaker 1: of what happens internationally in these geopolitical battles. UM. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you so much, Debbie, Thank you so much, Megan. UM.
Speaker 1: I think that's that's going to do it for us today. UM. Please,
Speaker 1: you know, continue paying attention to this. Um. Did you
Speaker 1: want to you know, Megan, did you have anything else
Speaker 1: you wanted to kind of kind of add um or
Speaker 1: let people know actually both of you would let people
Speaker 1: know where they can follow you on the internet. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean I think that that about covers it. Look,
Speaker 1: the only solution for peace, democracy and self determination in
Speaker 1: Turkey and in the wider Middle East is a just
Speaker 1: and democratic, negotiated settlement to the Kurdish question. And I
Speaker 1: think that just as Debbie said, learn about what's going on,
Speaker 1: reach out to your communities, talk to your local Kurdish
Speaker 1: community if there is one, find the opportunities that there
Speaker 1: are to engage with people in Turkey, in Syria and
Speaker 1: all of these places, you know, working for peace and
Speaker 1: standing up for these ideas, and then no efforts too small,
Speaker 1: because ending this conflict would benefit everyone in Northeast Syria,
Speaker 1: everyone in Turkey and all of us here, you know,
Speaker 1: knowing that our government was no longer supporting this terrible,
Speaker 1: unjust war. UM, So just get out there and do something. UM.
Speaker 1: To see the work that the think tank where I
Speaker 1: work UM is doing on this issue, you can go
Speaker 1: to Kurdish Peace dot org where we have research and
Speaker 1: analysis on everything related to do related to the Kurdish
Speaker 1: issue from all different perspectives, and you can check out
Speaker 1: our work there, UM. And you can follow me on
Speaker 1: Twitter UM Megan Bodette and the Twitter handle is at
Speaker 1: five underscores m j B excellent. My Twitter is simpler.
Speaker 1: It's just Debbie book Shin at Debbie book Action. And
Speaker 1: again I just want to say that you know people
Speaker 1: we do at defend Rojeva dot org and we're also
Speaker 1: on Twitter at defend Rojeva. We have so many ideas
Speaker 1: and so much information about how people can get involved.
Speaker 1: Is making said, if nothing else, no more weapons to
Speaker 1: Turkey until they begin peace negotiations, give Rojeva political recognition,
Speaker 1: that would be another thing people can be demanding also
Speaker 1: that curds have a place at the bargaining table and
Speaker 1: any discussions about the future of Syria. So we have
Speaker 1: all those kinds of ideas, scripts, as I said, model
Speaker 1: emails and more at defend Rojeva dot org. Awesome, UM,
Speaker 1: thank you all for for being on and um, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's going to do it for us here. It could
Speaker 1: happen here for the day. Thank you for having us. Thanks.
Speaker 1: It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.
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