WEBVTT - Resisting Turkish Imperialism in Rojava ft Debbie Bookchin 0:00:04.840 --> 0:00:07.880 Hello everybody, and welcome back to It Could Happen Here, 0:00:07.960 --> 0:00:11.360 a podcast about things falling apart and occasionally about how 0:00:11.400 --> 0:00:14.040 to put them back together again. And today we have 0:00:14.160 --> 0:00:16.680 a special episode we're gonna be talking about a place 0:00:16.960 --> 0:00:20.280 where things did in fact fall apart and that people 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:22.920 are you could say, still in the process of putting 0:00:22.920 --> 0:00:24.599 them back together again and trying to do it in 0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:28.000 a way that is much more equitable and better than 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:31.600 things have been before the collapse. That is Rojaba in 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:35.559 Northeast Syria. UM. I'm going to introduce kind of that 0:00:35.680 --> 0:00:39.319 concept in h I'll do it right now. Basically if 0:00:39.360 --> 0:00:41.159 you if you don't know anything about this, you might 0:00:41.240 --> 0:00:43.760 check out our podcast The Women's War UM. But it 0:00:43.840 --> 0:00:46.720 is a it is an autonomous region, not a state 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:49.120 in northeast Syria that is not under the control of 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:52.920 the Assad regime UM or of any other state in 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:57.560 the area. It's an independent UM community that is based 0:00:57.600 --> 0:01:00.480 on some pretty radical it's it's organ to zation is 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:05.039 based on some pretty radical political philosophies UM in large 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:07.760 part ones that were sort of initially explored by a 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:10.800 man named Murray Buchin, who is an American social theorist 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:15.440 and anarchists anarchist political philosopher Um and some of his 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:18.559 ideas were adopted by the leader of a militant group 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:20.800 in the region called the p K k Um And 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:22.600 the leader of that group was a guy in a 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:25.520 Turkish prison named of Dula Augelan, who was you might say, 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:29.600 a Kurdish freedom fighter. Um Augelon encountered books ideas and 0:01:29.640 --> 0:01:32.520 started writing his own books of political theory that we're 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:35.600 kind of based off of them. And then when uh, 0:01:35.760 --> 0:01:39.320 two thousand thirteen, you get the Syrian Civil War reaches 0:01:39.360 --> 0:01:42.400 its kind of height, Isis becomes the thing. Suddenly the 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:45.200 government's not in this area that has a large Kurtish population, 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:49.920 Northeast Syria, and you know, people who are followers of 0:01:50.000 --> 0:01:54.640 Augelan takeover and start as they're fighting. Isis instituting this 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:58.320 kind of radical feminist, egalitarian vision of society which is 0:01:58.360 --> 0:02:00.640 currently under attacked by the Turkish government, which is what 0:02:00.680 --> 0:02:02.360 we're gonna be talking about. So I want to introduce 0:02:02.360 --> 0:02:04.880 our guests for today. First off, we have have James 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:07.920 Stout and we have Chris on the call from our 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:11.000 normal Cool Zone team, and then our guests today are 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:13.800 Debbie book Chin Debtie is a journalist and author and 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:16.800 co editor of the Next Revolution, Popular Assemblies and the 0:02:16.800 --> 0:02:21.680 Promise of Direct Democracy. UM. And then we also have 0:02:22.280 --> 0:02:26.840 Megan Bodette from the Kurdish Peace Institute, where she is 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:29.960 the director of research. UM. Welcome to the show, Megan 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:34.399 and Debbie. Thank you, it's great to be here. Thank 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:37.160 you so much, really appreciate it. Yeah, thank you both 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:40.919 for your time. I think maybe to start us out, Megan, UM, 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:43.960 would you be willing to talk a little bit about 0:02:44.600 --> 0:02:48.640 why the Turkish government is so aggressive towards this independent 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:51.200 region in northeast Syria and kind of what the situation 0:02:51.240 --> 0:02:57.880 on the ground is now. Yeah, absolutely so. For some background, essentially, 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:02.400 since the division of the Middle East into the modern 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:07.040 nation states that exist there today after World War One, 0:03:07.360 --> 0:03:12.200 with the agreements by European powers, the Kurdish people have 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:17.919 been divided between four different states Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and Syria, 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:20.480 and all of those states have had governments that have 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:23.840 been ethno nationalists, that have been repressive, that have not 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:29.119 provided Kurds and other ethnic and religious minorities equal citizenship rights, UM, 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:32.520 to participate in politics and to practice their culture, to 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:35.960 speak their language. UM. In addition to denying many of 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:39.520 these rights to many of their other citizens of different 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:43.240 ethnicities and religions as well. And so as a result 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:46.320 of this repression, and the repression in Turkey was some 0:03:46.480 --> 0:03:50.280 of the strongest and most systemic um the Kurdish people 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:54.320 in these regions have continued to struggle for and demand 0:03:54.680 --> 0:03:59.320 self determination and freedom in different political forms. What happened 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:02.160 in Turkey in the nineteen twenties and the nineteen thirties, 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:06.720 there were Kurdish revolts against the new um Turkish Republic, 0:04:07.320 --> 0:04:12.880 which was a very autocratic nation state that denied the 0:04:12.920 --> 0:04:17.440 existence of all non Turkish ethnicities. And these revolts were 0:04:17.480 --> 0:04:21.280 all violently put down with attacks that not only targeted 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:25.800 those who tried to resist these policies of assimilation, but 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:29.480 that also resulted in um Turkish you know, mass violence 0:04:29.520 --> 0:04:34.280 against Kurdish civilians in these regions. You had forced deportations, 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:38.160 you had ethnic cleansing, you had all kinds of brutal 0:04:38.240 --> 0:04:42.640 violence against civilians in order to specifically create this homogeneous 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:47.479 Turkish ethnic identity in Kurdish regions. And so after this 0:04:47.560 --> 0:04:52.159 period of time, there were um there was a period 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:55.880 wherein there was less resistance, and I think, you know, 0:04:55.960 --> 0:05:00.240 the Turkish government believed that the Kurdish problem had been 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:03.240 solved by force. They had successfully been able to kill 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:07.839 or assimilate all of the Kurdish people. But in the 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:11.039 nineteen seventies and the nineteen eighties, sort of concurrent with 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:14.560 many national liberation movements around the world, you had the 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:18.280 beginning of the PKK or the Kurdistan Workers Parties national 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:22.200 liberation struggle. Now, they began as a socialist movement seeking 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:26.120 an independent and socialist Kurdish state, and they saw Kurdistan 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:30.560 as a colony that was occupied by Turkey, and with 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:35.920 the colonialism of Turkey in Kurdistan, was supported by imperialist 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:39.240 powers in the rest of the world as well, and 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:42.800 they sought to write that as other national liberation movements 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:46.520 in Africa, Asia, Latin America many places at the time 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:51.520 did with an armed struggle for independence. And in responding 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:55.159 to the PKK's formation and armed struggle, the Turkish state 0:05:55.200 --> 0:06:00.360 once again, rather than acceding to any Kurdish demands, they 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:06.400 responded with brutal, violent oppression of not only Kurds who 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:10.040 were active in the armed struggle, not only politically active Kurds, 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:14.159 but on all forms of Kurdish identity. After the military 0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:17.760 coup in Turkey in nineteen eighty, the Kurdish language was banned. 0:06:18.200 --> 0:06:22.480 UM Kurds were imprisoned on false charges or no charges 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:26.840 at all. UM torture was prevalent, show trials were prevalent. 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:31.080 UM any kind of publication or other public interaction in 0:06:31.160 --> 0:06:34.720 Kurdish was completely illegal. So there was this full scale 0:06:34.760 --> 0:06:38.040 effort to repress the Kurds and any other progressive segments 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:40.880 of society in Turkey that would have supported them, and 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:46.000 as the conflict went on, Turkey did very little to change. 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:50.160 By the nineteen nineties, the success of the Kurdish movement 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:53.680 had forced the state to recalibrate, as had developments in 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:57.479 Iraqi Kurdistan with Kords, they're achieving autonomy and so you 0:06:57.560 --> 0:07:01.920 started to have the ability of Kurdish political actors to 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:04.560 work within the system. We saw the development of pro 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:08.800 Kurdish legal political parties at that time, but there was 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:14.760 still very severe repression of any and all things Kurdish 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:17.640 as they made their demands, even of those who increasingly 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:21.560 attempted to make demands peacefully. So the conflict went on 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:25.600 throughout the nineteen nineties and the two thousands and to 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:29.800 this day UM despite a peace process between the government 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:33.920 of Turkey and the PKK and the Kurdish movement between 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:42.440 and UM. That process failed. When Radwan's government saw that 0:07:43.000 --> 0:07:46.840 it was allowing for Kurds to take advantage of expanded 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:51.760 democratic space in Turkey organized and achieve electoral political success, 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:56.600 the government abandoned its commitments and sadly returned to war, 0:07:56.880 --> 0:08:00.600 and the conflict has been going on ever since and 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:04.280 has included, you know, again, not only this military component, 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:08.000 but this component of crushing all forms of organized Kurdish 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:11.920 political and cultural expression. So what we've been seeing in 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:15.320 Turkey over the past UM nearly a decade, now more 0:08:15.360 --> 0:08:18.760 than a half decade, is the repression of the pro 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:22.000 Kurdish political opposition in parliament, the People's Democratic Party or 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:26.360 the HDP. UM. We've seen repression of Kurdish media, attacks 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:32.480 on Kurdish journalists. UM, we've seen any kind of Kurdish activism, 0:08:32.520 --> 0:08:35.880 not only UM that that's explicitly political, but any kind 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:38.839 of acknowledgment of the Kurdish language, of Kurdish colors, of 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:44.840 Kurdish clothing very readily criminalized and this campaign of attacking 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:48.440 and repressing all things Kurdish has of course expanded beyond 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:53.040 Turkey's borders. So Turkey opposes North Anys Syria because the 0:08:53.080 --> 0:08:56.200 Syrian Kurds have created a form of autonomous governance that 0:08:56.240 --> 0:08:59.520 protects and promotes Kurdish rights, because they have done so 0:08:59.640 --> 0:09:02.440 in the framework of the Kurdish freedom movement that has 0:09:02.480 --> 0:09:05.439 its roots in Turkey UM and in Ochelan's ideas, as 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:10.440 you explained, and because they've been able to create a 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:16.280 successful alternative to the very sort of nationalist project that 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:19.520 the modern Turkish state is based on. You know, I 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:22.720 would say that the Turkish Kurdish conflict, and I don't 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:24.720 like to call it that, but that is what most 0:09:24.720 --> 0:09:28.240 people call it today, is really a conflict now over 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:32.160 to competing visions of regional order with Turkeys based on 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:37.640 the right ring wing neoliberal nation state and the Kurdish 0:09:37.640 --> 0:09:41.840 movement's vision of a Middle East based on self determination, liberation, 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:45.680 equality for women, and other values not only for birds, 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:49.400 but for all people. So because Northern East Syria represents 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:55.080 UM both Kurdish success and in creating an autonomous region, 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:58.360 and it represents these ideas of the Kurdish freedom movement 0:09:58.360 --> 0:10:02.520 that challenge Turkish National Project UM. Turkey has been trying 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:06.160 to destroy the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:09.920 by all possible means for a very long time now. 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:14.880 They've invaded Syrian territory twice to attack the Autonomous Administration 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:18.559 and the SDF, the Syrian Democratic Forces, once in a 0:10:18.679 --> 0:10:21.800 Frina in two thousand and eighteen Afrina Is in northwestern Syria, 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:25.560 and then once in two thousand nineteen after UM, you 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:28.640 know Trump and air Tawan's phone call that we all 0:10:28.720 --> 0:10:34.880 infamously remember, in Seri Kanier and tal Abiad in northeastern Syria. 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:38.640 So you've had these two invasions and occupations of UM 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:42.640 North and East Syria's territory that have included not only 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:47.199 the terrible violence of invasion and occupation, but also all 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:50.960 kinds of crimes against civilians who remained. We've seen uptakes 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:56.520 in violence and abuse of women, ethnically motivated, religiously motivated 0:10:56.600 --> 0:10:59.920 hatred and persecution that's driven virtually all of the non 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:02.840 Arab and non Muslim people living in these regions to 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:07.360 flee their homes. Attacks on anyone who is perceived as 0:11:07.400 --> 0:11:11.280 having collaborated with the prior administration all being carried out 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:15.480 by Turkey and Turkish back Syrian militia groups. So we've 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:17.840 seen the persecution of the civilians in these areas with 0:11:17.960 --> 0:11:22.240 the intent of changing demographics and installing not only a 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:26.160 government sympathetic to Turkey and the military structure sympathetic to Turkey, 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:30.280 but also removing the social base for the Autonomous Administration's project. 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:33.840 And then, in addition to these all out attacks on 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:37.720 the Autonomous Administration in these regions, Turkey continues to threaten 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:40.760 the territory that North Aneast Syria does have left, which 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:44.320 is still nearly one third of Syrian territory concentrated in 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:48.160 the northeast. There's been an escalating campaign of drone strikes 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:51.600 targeting leaders in the Autonomous Administration and the STF, as 0:11:51.600 --> 0:11:56.040 well as Syrian civilians. Turkey is cutting water access to 0:11:56.120 --> 0:11:59.959 North Aneast Syria by restricting the flow of the Euphrates River. 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:03.680 This is an agricultural region. People depend on that water 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:08.440 for all aspects of life um and certainly for the economy. 0:12:08.640 --> 0:12:12.640 That's caused a great deal of suffering. The entire Turkish 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:16.520 Syrian border is very heavily militarized, when you drive by 0:12:16.559 --> 0:12:18.880 it and you see the wall and you know, very 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:21.200 lit up at night with the barbed wire and everything, 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:24.640 and you just look at you know, these civilian towns, 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:28.760 very peaceful on both sides. It's something very disturbing to see. UM. 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:32.120 But it's a highly militarized border and it is completely 0:12:32.160 --> 0:12:35.520 sealed border. UM. Turkey does not trade with North in 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:40.160 East Syria and supports an international economic blockade on the region, 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:44.720 including by pressuring its allies to restrict the access of 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:48.840 goods to North and East Syria. So there's economics they're 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:52.280 going on there. There are really every tactic that Turkey 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:57.320 is able to use, whether military, economic, environmental, political, or 0:12:57.320 --> 0:13:01.240 anything else in order to crush and destroy on with 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:05.280 any serious political project and force the Kurdish people and 0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:07.640 the other peoples of that region to flee so that 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:10.400 there is no base for such a project again in 0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:14.840 the future. They're doing everything they can to achieve that outcome. 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:18.680 So the situation is very difficult, and it is a 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:23.800 direct result of Turkey's you know, century old Kurdish question 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:29.600 that it has been unable and unwilling to honestly and 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:33.959 in good faith a peaceful solution to UM. And we'll 0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:36.480 get to it later, but the international community has played 0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:38.840 a very big role in ensuring that that conflict goes 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:43.600 on with all of those negative consequences for Northeast Syria. Yeah, 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:47.840 I mean, and that's one of the obviously Turkey is 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:53.800 the second largest military in NATO UM and has you know, 0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:56.679 one of the things that is such like so messy 0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:59.840 about this is that on paper and on the ground, 0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:03.000 in fact, the United States has been supporting the Autonomous 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:07.480 Region UM in Northeast Syria and particularly the White PG 0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:10.440 and the White PJ, which is you know, the militia 0:14:10.559 --> 0:14:14.480 essentially um as as partners in the fight against ISIS. 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:16.600 And still to this day, right now, there's an operation 0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:18.640 going on in the Al Whole camp, which is where 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:22.240 a lot of ISIS prisoners are held. UM that is 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:24.800 like a coalition supported operation. At the same time that 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:28.040 the United States is doing this, we're selling weapons to 0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:31.320 the people who are have essentially declared the folks that 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:36.080 are military has been aiding a terrorist organization UM, which 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:41.040 is a peculiar in frustrating situation to say the least. Yeah, 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:45.320 And and actually the other thing that's happening, Robert is 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:50.160 that you know, Turkey, while it's threatening a full scale invasion, 0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:54.280 they've been doing all of these things that Megan described 0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:59.400 sort of on this sort of low intensity warfare scale, 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:02.440 a kind of military strategy that uses a whole variety 0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:06.480 of tactics, um that are short of you know, a 0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:11.280 full scale invasion, which still may come. And so you know, 0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:15.760 there's these extra judicial killings of uh, some of the 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:19.880 leaders of the SDF, which is the Syrian Democratic Forces 0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:22.360 which is the sort of umbrella group of the two 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:26.000 militia Kurdish militias that you described, and which also includes 0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:29.640 many Arab fighters and others who have who have been 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:33.320 central and defeating ISIS at the cost I might add 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:38.160 of about thirteen thousand lives, you know, and um, you know, 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:41.000 and the and the use of their proxy groups like 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:44.720 the Syrian so called you know s N, a Syrian 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:48.160 National Army, which is really you know, a group of 0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:52.120 jihadi militias that Turkey has kind of assembled and now 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:56.960 completely is responsive to Turkey and and is the sort 0:15:56.960 --> 0:15:59.480 of shock troops for when they went did go into 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:03.880 Afra and and for these other invasions, um, you know, 0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:07.240 economic pressures as Megan described. But the point is that 0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:11.840 this kind of warfare, it produces these sort of ongoing 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:15.840 low level attacks, but it keeps it sort of off 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:19.560 the radar of the of the bigger political and and 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:23.640 and media machine, and therefore it keeps it from getting 0:16:23.680 --> 0:16:27.720 the attention that it really deserves in Western societies. It 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:32.600 also has the impact of displacing hundreds of thousands of people, 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:36.000 and and uh, you know, and and many hundreds have 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:39.720 also been killed. I'm sure probably you're familiar with some 0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:43.720 of the recent bombings by drone that have been occurring 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:49.760 in Rojiva, which you know, including many civilians, school children Turkey. 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:54.520 Turkeys doesn't care at all about about who gets hit, 0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:59.040 and they have been very aggressive, um, without any respect 0:16:59.080 --> 0:17:02.760 for civilian cash sualties as well. So you know. So, 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:05.800 I mean, I think it's it's important to also just 0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:11.440 note that this democratic project is in Syria is a 0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:14.360 deep threat to Turkey because and and that every time 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:19.879 Airdoan steps up these military sort of disaggression, um, it 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:22.720 leads him to bryce slightly in the polls, which is 0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:24.960 something that's important to him because he has an election 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:28.680 coming up next year. So there's that sort of political 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:33.400 dimension to it. But the fact is that that Rojeva 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:38.080 is basically a women's revolution. Women are involved in every 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:42.680 aspect of running society there, the political, the social, the economic, 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:47.159 and Turkey is essentially a femicidal state. You know it 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:50.879 not only reviews women within within Turkey is less than 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:54.520 human where husbands can basically get away with murdering their wives. 0:17:54.560 --> 0:17:57.800 But you know, it targets girls with drones, as it 0:17:57.840 --> 0:18:00.720 did on August eighteenth when a Turkish rome bombed to 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:04.159 you and supported education center for young girls and in 0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:09.760 Herseka and Rosava. So you know, it's it's very much, 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:23.960 as Megan said, a war of ideologies as well. Again, 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:27.280 one of the things that's so frustrating with this so historically, 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:30.159 the reason why Turkey was it was so important for 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:32.440 NATO to get Turkey as a member is because that's 0:18:32.520 --> 0:18:35.639 essentially NATO's eastern flank. If you're still thinking about that 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:39.440 big theoretical conflict between you know, Russia and UH and 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:43.280 the Western democracies. That was why, you know, part of 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:45.959 why why initially like Turkey was such a valued partner, 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:49.359 and then as time has gone on, it's um primarily 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:51.040 one of the big things is we have a massive 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:54.920 air base in Turkey in sirlik Um, where a number 0:18:54.960 --> 0:18:59.280 of US nuclear warheads are kept. UM. So there's a 0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:02.439 tremendous fear cowardice might be a better way to say it, 0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:05.440 on behalf of politicians in the United States and other 0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:10.480 Western countries to actually engage with the ethnic cleansings UM 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:12.879 and with the human rights abuses that the Turkish government, 0:19:12.880 --> 0:19:16.880 particularly under Air to One has has continued. And one 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:18.720 of the things that's really frustrating about this, you know, 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:21.040 if you think about the way in which ISIS was 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:25.639 discussed by US media, was discussed by conservatives by Donald 0:19:25.680 --> 0:19:29.879 Trump during his campaign, you know, it was this ultimate boogeyman. Well, 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:33.399 a huge chunk of the support for for ISSIS and 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:36.840 in fact, even logistics for some of their fighters came 0:19:37.200 --> 0:19:40.520 allegedly courtesy of the Turkish state, and there's some evidence 0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:44.240 for this. There's certainly evidence of support for wounded fighters 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:47.280 and kind of a a lax policy that allowed a 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:49.880 lot of people to come through Turkey and get into 0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:53.520 northeast Syria to fight UM. And you know, as you 0:19:53.600 --> 0:19:58.320 noted earlier, thirteen thousand, somewhere around their fighters men and 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:03.160 women UM in the YPG and J died fighting ISIS 0:20:03.240 --> 0:20:06.280 in you know UM, and we're you know, not just 0:20:07.359 --> 0:20:09.800 fighting ISIS kind of with the backing of the United States. 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:11.800 But prior to getting any support, one of the most 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:15.919 important things they did the while ISIS was on the 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:18.679 move in Iraq as well as Syria, they were carrying 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:21.920 out an active ethnic cleansing, a genocidal operation in Mount 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:24.520 Sinjar against the z D s UM and that was 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:28.600 only really stopped because while they were fighting a defensive 0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:32.960 war in northeast Syria, the YPG sent fighters into Iraq 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:36.479 to stop the genocide UM and they were successful in this. 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:38.240 You know, you talked to IS. I have a lot 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:40.960 of y ZD survivors of the genocide and they'll say, 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:43.560 the only reason we got out is because of you know, 0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:48.440 the YPG, UM and the p k K and the PEAK. Well, 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:50.800 and that is that it is. It is, so we 0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:52.440 should we could talk a little bit about the p 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:56.000 k K. They are the the YPG and J and 0:20:56.160 --> 0:20:58.640 the SDF, which is kind of the umbrella organization are 0:20:58.680 --> 0:21:01.920 not recognized as terroristorganizations by the United States or by 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:06.000 most Western democracies. The p k K is recognized as 0:21:06.000 --> 0:21:10.320 a terrorist organization. Turkeys allegations would be that the YPG 0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:14.320 and j and and other you know militias are just 0:21:14.480 --> 0:21:17.600 p KK affiliates. Um. The reality is that they are 0:21:17.640 --> 0:21:21.159 in quite a fact quite closely tied um uh and 0:21:21.560 --> 0:21:24.040 you will you know, but also there it's not the 0:21:24.080 --> 0:21:27.320 exact like when you're in Rajaba and you encounter people 0:21:27.400 --> 0:21:31.080 who are p KK, people will speak about them differently 0:21:31.119 --> 0:21:33.280 than they will talk about other people who are kind 0:21:33.280 --> 0:21:35.560 of you know, they're the folks from the mountains is 0:21:35.600 --> 0:21:38.719 the term that I here use the most. But the 0:21:38.800 --> 0:21:42.280 thing is, see, here's the problem. The problem is that 0:21:42.920 --> 0:21:47.399 that whatever the p k k's history is and has been, 0:21:47.640 --> 0:21:51.119 and it's where more than we can get into, the 0:21:51.200 --> 0:21:55.879 p k K made a dramatic shift in its ideology 0:21:56.320 --> 0:22:01.280 and has done everything possible to try to restart peace 0:22:01.320 --> 0:22:04.640 negotiations with Turkey. So first of all, you know, there 0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:08.080 are several as Megan mentioned before, there was a piece 0:22:08.160 --> 0:22:11.040 initiative that went on for a few years that then 0:22:11.200 --> 0:22:14.840 everyone decided wasn't um you know, beneficial to him, so 0:22:14.880 --> 0:22:18.719 he stopped it. But the PKK and as recently as 0:22:18.760 --> 0:22:20.639 I think a year or two ago, the leader of 0:22:21.240 --> 0:22:24.680 the p KK and the Mountains right Najamil Bayek wrote 0:22:24.680 --> 0:22:27.680 an op ed for The Washington Post saying, we want 0:22:27.760 --> 0:22:31.159 to have talks, We want to have a reconciliation with Turkey. 0:22:31.200 --> 0:22:34.800 We're not asking for separate Cornish state. All we want 0:22:34.880 --> 0:22:38.359 is some degree of autonomy. And and uh, you know, 0:22:38.400 --> 0:22:42.159 and and it's actually to the enduring shame of the 0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:45.640 Western media, including the New York Times, that they continue 0:22:45.680 --> 0:22:49.000 to talk about them as a separatist organization. But that's 0:22:49.040 --> 0:22:54.080 another story as well. The fact is that these um 0:22:55.240 --> 0:22:59.560 ideologies that they both subscribe to p k K and 0:22:59.600 --> 0:23:03.080 the White PG YPG, regardless of whether to what extent 0:23:03.119 --> 0:23:08.000 they may be related. The political ideology is an ideology 0:23:08.119 --> 0:23:13.240 about direct democracy. It's about empowering people at the local level. 0:23:13.560 --> 0:23:17.000 It's about making sure that every adult and also the 0:23:17.080 --> 0:23:20.920 youth have a say in their communities. And it's as 0:23:21.320 --> 0:23:26.119 grassroots democratic as anything that you could ever imagine. And 0:23:26.200 --> 0:23:30.280 so really, you would think that the United States, you know, 0:23:30.320 --> 0:23:34.040 would understand that there's certainly no threat that the neither 0:23:34.119 --> 0:23:38.679 the YPG nor the YPG has ever shown any aggression 0:23:38.720 --> 0:23:41.159 towards Turkey, which is what makes this idea of a 0:23:41.200 --> 0:23:43.480 buff the idea that they need a buffer zone kind 0:23:43.520 --> 0:23:47.440 of a joke, you know. So really it's it's an 0:23:47.440 --> 0:23:52.479 ideological shift that's so profound and so empowering to local 0:23:52.600 --> 0:23:55.600 people that it's also something that frankly, those of us 0:23:55.640 --> 0:23:58.720 who are on the left should be much more supportive of, 0:23:58.920 --> 0:24:03.280 I think, than than people have been so far. Yeah, 0:24:03.359 --> 0:24:06.080 I mean, the thing that is most remarkable because I 0:24:06.080 --> 0:24:08.560 spent a lot, I spent more time, certainly in Iraq 0:24:08.720 --> 0:24:11.760 than in Syria. And we should note here that we're 0:24:11.760 --> 0:24:15.360 talking about Syria today and we're talking about Rojava. Turkish 0:24:15.359 --> 0:24:20.120 aggression against particularly UM, against the p KK, but against 0:24:20.200 --> 0:24:22.920 you know, Kurd's kind of in an ethnic sense, UM 0:24:23.000 --> 0:24:27.320 extends beyond Syria. Turkey has illegally attacked Iraq and in 0:24:27.400 --> 0:24:31.320 fact moved troops into Iraqi soil a number of times, 0:24:31.520 --> 0:24:34.280 escalating within the last year, and killed a substantial number 0:24:34.280 --> 0:24:38.800 of people in the in the Kurdish regional government territories. UM. 0:24:38.840 --> 0:24:41.920 So that is also occurring here. Although it's it's worth 0:24:41.960 --> 0:24:44.880 noting again because people mix this up a lot. What's 0:24:44.880 --> 0:24:48.120 happening in Kurdish control Iraq is profoundly different from what's 0:24:48.119 --> 0:24:52.720 happening in Rojava, and they're extremely different political organization. Yeah. 0:24:52.760 --> 0:24:54.600 I think it's also worth mentioning that it's not just 0:24:55.440 --> 0:24:59.600 UM Kurdish groups have been attacking in Iraq. There's been 0:24:59.680 --> 0:25:04.600 a bun of attacks, like a yeah, it's killed a 0:25:04.600 --> 0:25:07.240 bunch of those people too. It is the yeah, they're 0:25:07.240 --> 0:25:10.240 just they're doing the genocide again. Yeah, I think, yeah, 0:25:11.320 --> 0:25:17.160 it's u it's interesting, you know, I uh, it's also 0:25:17.280 --> 0:25:20.160 kind of worth. The thing that was perhaps most surprising 0:25:20.200 --> 0:25:22.560 to me there was the degree to which people I 0:25:22.560 --> 0:25:25.359 would meet who were just like in many cases just 0:25:25.400 --> 0:25:28.200