1 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:07,880 Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to It Could Happen Here, 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 1: a podcast about things falling apart and occasionally about how 3 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: to put them back together again. And today we have 4 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: a special episode we're gonna be talking about a place 5 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:20,280 Speaker 1: where things did in fact fall apart and that people 6 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:22,920 Speaker 1: are you could say, still in the process of putting 7 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:24,599 Speaker 1: them back together again and trying to do it in 8 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: a way that is much more equitable and better than 9 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: things have been before the collapse. That is Rojaba in 10 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:35,559 Speaker 1: Northeast Syria. UM. I'm going to introduce kind of that 11 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:39,319 Speaker 1: concept in h I'll do it right now. Basically if 12 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 1: you if you don't know anything about this, you might 13 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: check out our podcast The Women's War UM. But it 14 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: is a it is an autonomous region, not a state 15 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: in northeast Syria that is not under the control of 16 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 1: the Assad regime UM or of any other state in 17 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: the area. It's an independent UM community that is based 18 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: on some pretty radical it's it's organ to zation is 19 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:05,039 Speaker 1: based on some pretty radical political philosophies UM in large 20 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 1: part ones that were sort of initially explored by a 21 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: man named Murray Buchin, who is an American social theorist 22 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: and anarchists anarchist political philosopher Um and some of his 23 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:18,559 Speaker 1: ideas were adopted by the leader of a militant group 24 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 1: in the region called the p K k Um And 25 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: the leader of that group was a guy in a 26 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: Turkish prison named of Dula Augelan, who was you might say, 27 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: a Kurdish freedom fighter. Um Augelon encountered books ideas and 28 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: started writing his own books of political theory that we're 29 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: kind of based off of them. And then when uh, 30 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:39,320 Speaker 1: two thousand thirteen, you get the Syrian Civil War reaches 31 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:42,400 Speaker 1: its kind of height, Isis becomes the thing. Suddenly the 32 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 1: government's not in this area that has a large Kurtish population, 33 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 1: Northeast Syria, and you know, people who are followers of 34 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: Augelan takeover and start as they're fighting. Isis instituting this 35 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 1: kind of radical feminist, egalitarian vision of society which is 36 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: currently under attacked by the Turkish government, which is what 37 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about. So I want to introduce 38 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: our guests for today. First off, we have have James 39 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: Stout and we have Chris on the call from our 40 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: normal Cool Zone team, and then our guests today are 41 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 1: Debbie book Chin Debtie is a journalist and author and 42 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 1: co editor of the Next Revolution, Popular Assemblies and the 43 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: Promise of Direct Democracy. UM. And then we also have 44 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: Megan Bodette from the Kurdish Peace Institute, where she is 45 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 1: the director of research. UM. Welcome to the show, Megan 46 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:34,399 Speaker 1: and Debbie. Thank you, it's great to be here. Thank 47 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: you so much, really appreciate it. Yeah, thank you both 48 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:40,919 Speaker 1: for your time. I think maybe to start us out, Megan, UM, 49 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 1: would you be willing to talk a little bit about 50 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 1: why the Turkish government is so aggressive towards this independent 51 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 1: region in northeast Syria and kind of what the situation 52 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: on the ground is now. Yeah, absolutely so. For some background, essentially, 53 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: since the division of the Middle East into the modern 54 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: nation states that exist there today after World War One, 55 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: with the agreements by European powers, the Kurdish people have 56 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:17,919 Speaker 1: been divided between four different states Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and Syria, 57 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: and all of those states have had governments that have 58 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 1: been ethno nationalists, that have been repressive, that have not 59 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:29,119 Speaker 1: provided Kurds and other ethnic and religious minorities equal citizenship rights, UM, 60 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 1: to participate in politics and to practice their culture, to 61 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 1: speak their language. UM. In addition to denying many of 62 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: these rights to many of their other citizens of different 63 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: ethnicities and religions as well. And so as a result 64 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: of this repression, and the repression in Turkey was some 65 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: of the strongest and most systemic um the Kurdish people 66 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: in these regions have continued to struggle for and demand 67 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: self determination and freedom in different political forms. What happened 68 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 1: in Turkey in the nineteen twenties and the nineteen thirties, 69 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 1: there were Kurdish revolts against the new um Turkish Republic, 70 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: which was a very autocratic nation state that denied the 71 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: existence of all non Turkish ethnicities. And these revolts were 72 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:21,280 Speaker 1: all violently put down with attacks that not only targeted 73 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: those who tried to resist these policies of assimilation, but 74 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 1: that also resulted in um Turkish you know, mass violence 75 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:34,280 Speaker 1: against Kurdish civilians in these regions. You had forced deportations, 76 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 1: you had ethnic cleansing, you had all kinds of brutal 77 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: violence against civilians in order to specifically create this homogeneous 78 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:47,479 Speaker 1: Turkish ethnic identity in Kurdish regions. And so after this 79 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 1: period of time, there were um there was a period 80 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: wherein there was less resistance, and I think, you know, 81 00:04:55,960 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 1: the Turkish government believed that the Kurdish problem had been 82 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: solved by force. They had successfully been able to kill 83 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 1: or assimilate all of the Kurdish people. But in the 84 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:11,039 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies and the nineteen eighties, sort of concurrent with 85 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 1: many national liberation movements around the world, you had the 86 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:18,280 Speaker 1: beginning of the PKK or the Kurdistan Workers Parties national 87 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: liberation struggle. Now, they began as a socialist movement seeking 88 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: an independent and socialist Kurdish state, and they saw Kurdistan 89 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: as a colony that was occupied by Turkey, and with 90 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 1: the colonialism of Turkey in Kurdistan, was supported by imperialist 91 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: powers in the rest of the world as well, and 92 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 1: they sought to write that as other national liberation movements 93 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: in Africa, Asia, Latin America many places at the time 94 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: did with an armed struggle for independence. And in responding 95 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:55,159 Speaker 1: to the PKK's formation and armed struggle, the Turkish state 96 00:05:55,200 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 1: once again, rather than acceding to any Kurdish demands, they 97 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: responded with brutal, violent oppression of not only Kurds who 98 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 1: were active in the armed struggle, not only politically active Kurds, 99 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:14,159 Speaker 1: but on all forms of Kurdish identity. After the military 100 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: coup in Turkey in nineteen eighty, the Kurdish language was banned. 101 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 1: UM Kurds were imprisoned on false charges or no charges 102 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 1: at all. UM torture was prevalent, show trials were prevalent. 103 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 1: UM any kind of publication or other public interaction in 104 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:34,720 Speaker 1: Kurdish was completely illegal. So there was this full scale 105 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 1: effort to repress the Kurds and any other progressive segments 106 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: of society in Turkey that would have supported them, and 107 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: as the conflict went on, Turkey did very little to change. 108 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:50,160 Speaker 1: By the nineteen nineties, the success of the Kurdish movement 109 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: had forced the state to recalibrate, as had developments in 110 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:57,479 Speaker 1: Iraqi Kurdistan with Kords, they're achieving autonomy and so you 111 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 1: started to have the ability of Kurdish political actors to 112 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: work within the system. We saw the development of pro 113 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: Kurdish legal political parties at that time, but there was 114 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: still very severe repression of any and all things Kurdish 115 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: as they made their demands, even of those who increasingly 116 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: attempted to make demands peacefully. So the conflict went on 117 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: throughout the nineteen nineties and the two thousands and to 118 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: this day UM despite a peace process between the government 119 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 1: of Turkey and the PKK and the Kurdish movement between 120 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: and UM. That process failed. When Radwan's government saw that 121 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: it was allowing for Kurds to take advantage of expanded 122 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: democratic space in Turkey organized and achieve electoral political success, 123 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: the government abandoned its commitments and sadly returned to war, 124 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: and the conflict has been going on ever since and 125 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: has included, you know, again, not only this military component, 126 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: but this component of crushing all forms of organized Kurdish 127 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: political and cultural expression. So what we've been seeing in 128 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: Turkey over the past UM nearly a decade, now more 129 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 1: than a half decade, is the repression of the pro 130 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: Kurdish political opposition in parliament, the People's Democratic Party or 131 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: the HDP. UM. We've seen repression of Kurdish media, attacks 132 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: on Kurdish journalists. UM, we've seen any kind of Kurdish activism, 133 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 1: not only UM that that's explicitly political, but any kind 134 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:38,839 Speaker 1: of acknowledgment of the Kurdish language, of Kurdish colors, of 135 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 1: Kurdish clothing very readily criminalized and this campaign of attacking 136 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 1: and repressing all things Kurdish has of course expanded beyond 137 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 1: Turkey's borders. So Turkey opposes North Anys Syria because the 138 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 1: Syrian Kurds have created a form of autonomous governance that 139 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: protects and promotes Kurdish rights, because they have done so 140 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 1: in the framework of the Kurdish freedom movement that has 141 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:05,439 Speaker 1: its roots in Turkey UM and in Ochelan's ideas, as 142 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 1: you explained, and because they've been able to create a 143 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: successful alternative to the very sort of nationalist project that 144 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 1: the modern Turkish state is based on. You know, I 145 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 1: would say that the Turkish Kurdish conflict, and I don't 146 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 1: like to call it that, but that is what most 147 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: people call it today, is really a conflict now over 148 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: to competing visions of regional order with Turkeys based on 149 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: the right ring wing neoliberal nation state and the Kurdish 150 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: movement's vision of a Middle East based on self determination, liberation, 151 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: equality for women, and other values not only for birds, 152 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: but for all people. So because Northern East Syria represents 153 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:55,080 Speaker 1: UM both Kurdish success and in creating an autonomous region, 154 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 1: and it represents these ideas of the Kurdish freedom movement 155 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: that challenge Turkish National Project UM. Turkey has been trying 156 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 1: to destroy the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria 157 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: by all possible means for a very long time now. 158 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: They've invaded Syrian territory twice to attack the Autonomous Administration 159 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:18,559 Speaker 1: and the SDF, the Syrian Democratic Forces, once in a 160 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: Frina in two thousand and eighteen Afrina Is in northwestern Syria, 161 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 1: and then once in two thousand nineteen after UM, you 162 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: know Trump and air Tawan's phone call that we all 163 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: infamously remember, in Seri Kanier and tal Abiad in northeastern Syria. 164 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: So you've had these two invasions and occupations of UM 165 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: North and East Syria's territory that have included not only 166 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:47,199 Speaker 1: the terrible violence of invasion and occupation, but also all 167 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 1: kinds of crimes against civilians who remained. We've seen uptakes 168 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: in violence and abuse of women, ethnically motivated, religiously motivated 169 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: hatred and persecution that's driven virtually all of the non 170 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 1: Arab and non Muslim people living in these regions to 171 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: flee their homes. Attacks on anyone who is perceived as 172 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: having collaborated with the prior administration all being carried out 173 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: by Turkey and Turkish back Syrian militia groups. So we've 174 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 1: seen the persecution of the civilians in these areas with 175 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: the intent of changing demographics and installing not only a 176 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: government sympathetic to Turkey and the military structure sympathetic to Turkey, 177 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: but also removing the social base for the Autonomous Administration's project. 178 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 1: And then, in addition to these all out attacks on 179 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 1: the Autonomous Administration in these regions, Turkey continues to threaten 180 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: the territory that North Aneast Syria does have left, which 181 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 1: is still nearly one third of Syrian territory concentrated in 182 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 1: the northeast. There's been an escalating campaign of drone strikes 183 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 1: targeting leaders in the Autonomous Administration and the STF, as 184 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: well as Syrian civilians. Turkey is cutting water access to 185 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:59,959 Speaker 1: North Aneast Syria by restricting the flow of the Euphrates River. 186 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:03,680 Speaker 1: This is an agricultural region. People depend on that water 187 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 1: for all aspects of life um and certainly for the economy. 188 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 1: That's caused a great deal of suffering. The entire Turkish 189 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: Syrian border is very heavily militarized, when you drive by 190 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: it and you see the wall and you know, very 191 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:21,200 Speaker 1: lit up at night with the barbed wire and everything, 192 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: and you just look at you know, these civilian towns, 193 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 1: very peaceful on both sides. It's something very disturbing to see. UM. 194 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 1: But it's a highly militarized border and it is completely 195 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: sealed border. UM. Turkey does not trade with North in 196 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: East Syria and supports an international economic blockade on the region, 197 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 1: including by pressuring its allies to restrict the access of 198 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 1: goods to North and East Syria. So there's economics they're 199 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: going on there. There are really every tactic that Turkey 200 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 1: is able to use, whether military, economic, environmental, political, or 201 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: anything else in order to crush and destroy on with 202 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: any serious political project and force the Kurdish people and 203 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 1: the other peoples of that region to flee so that 204 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 1: there is no base for such a project again in 205 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 1: the future. They're doing everything they can to achieve that outcome. 206 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,680 Speaker 1: So the situation is very difficult, and it is a 207 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: direct result of Turkey's you know, century old Kurdish question 208 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: that it has been unable and unwilling to honestly and 209 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:33,959 Speaker 1: in good faith a peaceful solution to UM. And we'll 210 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: get to it later, but the international community has played 211 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 1: a very big role in ensuring that that conflict goes 212 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: on with all of those negative consequences for Northeast Syria. Yeah, 213 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 1: I mean, and that's one of the obviously Turkey is 214 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 1: the second largest military in NATO UM and has you know, 215 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:56,679 Speaker 1: one of the things that is such like so messy 216 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: about this is that on paper and on the ground, 217 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: in fact, the United States has been supporting the Autonomous 218 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: Region UM in Northeast Syria and particularly the White PG 219 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 1: and the White PJ, which is you know, the militia 220 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: essentially um as as partners in the fight against ISIS. 221 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: And still to this day, right now, there's an operation 222 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: going on in the Al Whole camp, which is where 223 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 1: a lot of ISIS prisoners are held. UM that is 224 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 1: like a coalition supported operation. At the same time that 225 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: the United States is doing this, we're selling weapons to 226 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: the people who are have essentially declared the folks that 227 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 1: are military has been aiding a terrorist organization UM, which 228 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: is a peculiar in frustrating situation to say the least. Yeah, 229 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 1: And and actually the other thing that's happening, Robert is 230 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: that you know, Turkey, while it's threatening a full scale invasion, 231 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: they've been doing all of these things that Megan described 232 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: sort of on this sort of low intensity warfare scale, 233 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 1: a kind of military strategy that uses a whole variety 234 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: of tactics, um that are short of you know, a 235 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: full scale invasion, which still may come. And so you know, 236 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: there's these extra judicial killings of uh, some of the 237 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: leaders of the SDF, which is the Syrian Democratic Forces 238 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: which is the sort of umbrella group of the two 239 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: militia Kurdish militias that you described, and which also includes 240 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: many Arab fighters and others who have who have been 241 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: central and defeating ISIS at the cost I might add 242 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: of about thirteen thousand lives, you know, and um, you know, 243 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: and the and the use of their proxy groups like 244 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: the Syrian so called you know s N, a Syrian 245 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: National Army, which is really you know, a group of 246 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: jihadi militias that Turkey has kind of assembled and now 247 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: completely is responsive to Turkey and and is the sort 248 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 1: of shock troops for when they went did go into 249 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: Afra and and for these other invasions, um, you know, 250 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: economic pressures as Megan described. But the point is that 251 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: this kind of warfare, it produces these sort of ongoing 252 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 1: low level attacks, but it keeps it sort of off 253 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: the radar of the of the bigger political and and 254 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: and media machine, and therefore it keeps it from getting 255 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: the attention that it really deserves in Western societies. It 256 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: also has the impact of displacing hundreds of thousands of people, 257 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 1: and and uh, you know, and and many hundreds have 258 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: also been killed. I'm sure probably you're familiar with some 259 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 1: of the recent bombings by drone that have been occurring 260 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 1: in Rojiva, which you know, including many civilians, school children Turkey. 261 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: Turkeys doesn't care at all about about who gets hit, 262 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 1: and they have been very aggressive, um, without any respect 263 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: for civilian cash sualties as well. So you know. So, 264 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's it's important to also just 265 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 1: note that this democratic project is in Syria is a 266 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:14,360 Speaker 1: deep threat to Turkey because and and that every time 267 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:19,879 Speaker 1: Airdoan steps up these military sort of disaggression, um, it 268 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 1: leads him to bryce slightly in the polls, which is 269 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 1: something that's important to him because he has an election 270 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 1: coming up next year. So there's that sort of political 271 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:33,400 Speaker 1: dimension to it. But the fact is that that Rojeva 272 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: is basically a women's revolution. Women are involved in every 273 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 1: aspect of running society there, the political, the social, the economic, 274 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:47,159 Speaker 1: and Turkey is essentially a femicidal state. You know it 275 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,879 Speaker 1: not only reviews women within within Turkey is less than 276 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: human where husbands can basically get away with murdering their wives. 277 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 1: But you know, it targets girls with drones, as it 278 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: did on August eighteenth when a Turkish rome bombed to 279 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:04,159 Speaker 1: you and supported education center for young girls and in 280 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: Herseka and Rosava. So you know, it's it's very much, 281 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: as Megan said, a war of ideologies as well. Again, 282 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 1: one of the things that's so frustrating with this so historically, 283 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:30,159 Speaker 1: the reason why Turkey was it was so important for 284 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 1: NATO to get Turkey as a member is because that's 285 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 1: essentially NATO's eastern flank. If you're still thinking about that 286 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 1: big theoretical conflict between you know, Russia and UH and 287 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: the Western democracies. That was why, you know, part of 288 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:45,959 Speaker 1: why why initially like Turkey was such a valued partner, 289 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,359 Speaker 1: and then as time has gone on, it's um primarily 290 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: one of the big things is we have a massive 291 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,920 Speaker 1: air base in Turkey in sirlik Um, where a number 292 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 1: of US nuclear warheads are kept. UM. So there's a 293 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:02,439 Speaker 1: tremendous fear cowardice might be a better way to say it, 294 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,440 Speaker 1: on behalf of politicians in the United States and other 295 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: Western countries to actually engage with the ethnic cleansings UM 296 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 1: and with the human rights abuses that the Turkish government, 297 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:16,880 Speaker 1: particularly under Air to One has has continued. And one 298 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 1: of the things that's really frustrating about this, you know, 299 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 1: if you think about the way in which ISIS was 300 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 1: discussed by US media, was discussed by conservatives by Donald 301 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:29,879 Speaker 1: Trump during his campaign, you know, it was this ultimate boogeyman. Well, 302 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 1: a huge chunk of the support for for ISSIS and 303 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: in fact, even logistics for some of their fighters came 304 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 1: allegedly courtesy of the Turkish state, and there's some evidence 305 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: for this. There's certainly evidence of support for wounded fighters 306 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 1: and kind of a a lax policy that allowed a 307 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:49,880 Speaker 1: lot of people to come through Turkey and get into 308 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 1: northeast Syria to fight UM. And you know, as you 309 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 1: noted earlier, thirteen thousand, somewhere around their fighters men and 310 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:03,160 Speaker 1: women UM in the YPG and J died fighting ISIS 311 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: in you know UM, and we're you know, not just 312 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: fighting ISIS kind of with the backing of the United States. 313 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: But prior to getting any support, one of the most 314 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:15,919 Speaker 1: important things they did the while ISIS was on the 315 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,679 Speaker 1: move in Iraq as well as Syria, they were carrying 316 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,920 Speaker 1: out an active ethnic cleansing, a genocidal operation in Mount 317 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: Sinjar against the z D s UM and that was 318 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: only really stopped because while they were fighting a defensive 319 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 1: war in northeast Syria, the YPG sent fighters into Iraq 320 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,479 Speaker 1: to stop the genocide UM and they were successful in this. 321 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 1: You know, you talked to IS. I have a lot 322 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: of y ZD survivors of the genocide and they'll say, 323 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 1: the only reason we got out is because of you know, 324 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 1: the YPG, UM and the p k K and the PEAK. Well, 325 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 1: and that is that it is. It is, so we 326 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 1: should we could talk a little bit about the p 327 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 1: k K. They are the the YPG and J and 328 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,640 Speaker 1: the SDF, which is kind of the umbrella organization are 329 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 1: not recognized as terroristorganizations by the United States or by 330 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 1: most Western democracies. The p k K is recognized as 331 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: a terrorist organization. Turkeys allegations would be that the YPG 332 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: and j and and other you know militias are just 333 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: p KK affiliates. Um. The reality is that they are 334 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:21,159 Speaker 1: in quite a fact quite closely tied um uh and 335 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: you will you know, but also there it's not the 336 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: exact like when you're in Rajaba and you encounter people 337 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: who are p KK, people will speak about them differently 338 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: than they will talk about other people who are kind 339 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: of you know, they're the folks from the mountains is 340 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,719 Speaker 1: the term that I here use the most. But the 341 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: thing is, see, here's the problem. The problem is that 342 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:47,399 Speaker 1: that whatever the p k k's history is and has been, 343 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,119 Speaker 1: and it's where more than we can get into, the 344 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:55,879 Speaker 1: p k K made a dramatic shift in its ideology 345 00:21:56,320 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 1: and has done everything possible to try to restart peace 346 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,640 Speaker 1: negotiations with Turkey. So first of all, you know, there 347 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: are several as Megan mentioned before, there was a piece 348 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 1: initiative that went on for a few years that then 349 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: everyone decided wasn't um you know, beneficial to him, so 350 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,719 Speaker 1: he stopped it. But the PKK and as recently as 351 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 1: I think a year or two ago, the leader of 352 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 1: the p KK and the Mountains right Najamil Bayek wrote 353 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,680 Speaker 1: an op ed for The Washington Post saying, we want 354 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 1: to have talks, We want to have a reconciliation with Turkey. 355 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 1: We're not asking for separate Cornish state. All we want 356 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 1: is some degree of autonomy. And and uh, you know, 357 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:42,159 Speaker 1: and and it's actually to the enduring shame of the 358 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,640 Speaker 1: Western media, including the New York Times, that they continue 359 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: to talk about them as a separatist organization. But that's 360 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: another story as well. The fact is that these um 361 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: ideologies that they both subscribe to p k K and 362 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 1: the White PG YPG, regardless of whether to what extent 363 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: they may be related. The political ideology is an ideology 364 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: about direct democracy. It's about empowering people at the local level. 365 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: It's about making sure that every adult and also the 366 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,920 Speaker 1: youth have a say in their communities. And it's as 367 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:26,119 Speaker 1: grassroots democratic as anything that you could ever imagine. And 368 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: so really, you would think that the United States, you know, 369 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 1: would understand that there's certainly no threat that the neither 370 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:38,679 Speaker 1: the YPG nor the YPG has ever shown any aggression 371 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 1: towards Turkey, which is what makes this idea of a 372 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 1: buff the idea that they need a buffer zone kind 373 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:47,440 Speaker 1: of a joke, you know. So really it's it's an 374 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:52,479 Speaker 1: ideological shift that's so profound and so empowering to local 375 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 1: people that it's also something that frankly, those of us 376 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 1: who are on the left should be much more supportive of, 377 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 1: I think, than than people have been so far. Yeah, 378 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: I mean, the thing that is most remarkable because I 379 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: spent a lot, I spent more time, certainly in Iraq 380 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 1: than in Syria. And we should note here that we're 381 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:15,360 Speaker 1: talking about Syria today and we're talking about Rojava. Turkish 382 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:20,120 Speaker 1: aggression against particularly UM, against the p KK, but against 383 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 1: you know, Kurd's kind of in an ethnic sense, UM 384 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: extends beyond Syria. Turkey has illegally attacked Iraq and in 385 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 1: fact moved troops into Iraqi soil a number of times, 386 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: escalating within the last year, and killed a substantial number 387 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 1: of people in the in the Kurdish regional government territories. UM. 388 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 1: So that is also occurring here. Although it's it's worth 389 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,880 Speaker 1: noting again because people mix this up a lot. What's 390 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,120 Speaker 1: happening in Kurdish control Iraq is profoundly different from what's 391 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 1: happening in Rojava, and they're extremely different political organization. Yeah. 392 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 1: I think it's also worth mentioning that it's not just 393 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: UM Kurdish groups have been attacking in Iraq. There's been 394 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 1: a bun of attacks, like a yeah, it's killed a 395 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 1: bunch of those people too. It is the yeah, they're 396 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: just they're doing the genocide again. Yeah, I think, yeah, 397 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:17,160 Speaker 1: it's u it's interesting, you know, I uh, it's also 398 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,160 Speaker 1: kind of worth. The thing that was perhaps most surprising 399 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: to me there was the degree to which people I 400 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 1: would meet who were just like in many cases just 401 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 1: like kind of you know, terrorism police assays guys, or 402 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,439 Speaker 1: people who were like working traffic checkpoints, are working in 403 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,959 Speaker 1: the farms. There were people were really careful to not 404 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: refer or talk to like what the project was as 405 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:39,920 Speaker 1: a state, and it's it's not on a state a state, 406 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:41,919 Speaker 1: it's an autonomous region. That's one of the terms I 407 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: heard the most is the autonomous regions, which is is 408 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 1: really interesting to me. And it's it's hard. It's something 409 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,679 Speaker 1: certainly like mainstream media writing about it, UM seems to 410 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: have trouble grasping, as you say, And it's it's interesting 411 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: because obviously, Debbie, in case folks haven't put it together 412 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 1: you are the daughter of Murray book Chin, who is 413 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 1: the who is the political philosopher whose ideas formed a 414 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 1: significant core of of sort of what the organizational structure 415 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:12,360 Speaker 1: in is. UM. Well, I just want to say, first 416 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,399 Speaker 1: of all, thank you for that. But I also just 417 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: want to say that I really want to remind everybody that, 418 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:22,159 Speaker 1: of course, you know, Abdullah Chelan read hundreds and hundreds 419 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 1: of books, not just my dad's, so I mean, I 420 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 1: appreciate that, but you know they have He has really 421 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:33,400 Speaker 1: especially placed emphasis on the need for any revolutionary project 422 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,399 Speaker 1: to have the liberation of women at its core. My 423 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 1: dad talked a lot about hierarchy and patriarchy, but Chilan, 424 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: by making women central, has really done something unique I think, 425 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 1: you know, in in the history of because in the 426 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,880 Speaker 1: history of sort of revolutionary you know movements, because as 427 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 1: many women who have participated in those movements in the 428 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 1: past can tell you, it was always sure fight with 429 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,399 Speaker 1: us and will do with the women's issue when the 430 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:05,160 Speaker 1: revolution is over, and a Gelan turned that upside down, 431 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 1: you know, and he said it's got to be a 432 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: women's revolution. And the women in those movements over there 433 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,159 Speaker 1: really fought for that themselves. To UM, and one of 434 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:16,919 Speaker 1: the things that you know, it was most interesting for 435 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,119 Speaker 1: me to see, UM, was when I would go into 436 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,159 Speaker 1: meetings there with women in all kinds of different you know, 437 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,920 Speaker 1: military and civilian institutions and different cities across the region, 438 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 1: that before I would even bring it up as a researcher, 439 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:32,439 Speaker 1: you know, women would say to me that if it 440 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 1: weren't for A. Gelan's theories, we wouldn't have the organizations 441 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,439 Speaker 1: that we had, we wouldn't have the political power that 442 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: we have. And they have this incredible articulation of how 443 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: they use these ideas, you know, as inspiration for their 444 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 1: own work and also as almost political cover to do 445 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 1: kinds of things that wouldn't be accepted in other places 446 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: because they can go to men who they work with 447 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 1: who might be suspicious, but who you know, have this 448 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 1: public stated claim to this ideology and they can say, well, 449 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 1: Gelon's books say that society can never be free without 450 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:12,400 Speaker 1: women's liberation, that women's can have their own separate institutions. 451 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,119 Speaker 1: So they've been able to really take these ideas and 452 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 1: expand on them and you know, push them and use 453 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 1: them with their own practice. UM. And the way that 454 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,120 Speaker 1: the ideas came about themselves. One book that I would 455 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 1: recommend anyone interested in the Kurdish movement, UM, in revolutionary 456 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 1: women's movements anywhere in the world, and really any topic 457 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,439 Speaker 1: related to any of this to read is UM, the 458 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 1: autobiography of Sakina Johnson's, who was the only woman present 459 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 1: for the founding of the PKK and was really instrumental 460 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: in organizing both the armed and civilian sides of the 461 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 1: Kurdish women's movement in Turkey. UM there are pictures of 462 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 1: her everywhere in Syria. She was assassinated in France in 463 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 1: two thousand thirteen by Turkey nationalists affiliated with the state, 464 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: likely suspected, you know, hoping to disrupt the peace negotiations 465 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 1: that were ongoing at that time. But she's remembered everywhere 466 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 1: in northeast Syria for her role, and you can see 467 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 1: in her book her talking about seeing the inequalities that, 468 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 1: as Debbie mentioned, women in socialist movements and revolutionary movements 469 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 1: often faced where they were asked to, you know, be 470 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 1: as committed to this struggle as their male comrades were, 471 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 1: but we're still treated in very patriarchal ways by men 472 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 1: that they worked with, because you know, the patriarchy embedded 473 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 1: into these societies, and you see her talking about organizing 474 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,239 Speaker 1: women to overcome this. UM. And when you look at 475 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 1: the history of the Kurdish movement moving into what you 476 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 1: see in Northeast Syria as well, you know, women were 477 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 1: really able to do so much in practice that the 478 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 1: theory had to move to catch up to them. And 479 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 1: then to take this new incredible theory of you know, 480 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 1: women's oppression being the basis of all oppression UM and 481 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 1: the form of oppression that you know must be addressed 482 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 1: to free all members of society in all ways. You know, 483 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: they took this and they continued to expand it so 484 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 1: in a very difficult place in context to do so. 485 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: I mean we know that in more UM, there's more 486 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 1: violence against women, there's more discrimination, there's more emphasis on 487 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 1: traditional gender rules. That this holds true across different societies 488 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 1: and different conflicts. So they have UM that they face 489 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 1: many challenges. They're up against a lot here, certainly, you know, 490 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 1: with all the problems UM that they're facing in Northeast 491 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: Syria because of conflict and poverty, UM, everything that Turkey 492 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 1: is doing that we've discussed, So they're up against a 493 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 1: lot and it's not easy, but they've really, you know, 494 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: they've come incredibly far. Um. And seeing how you know, 495 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 1: they've taken very high level theoretical ideas and then done 496 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: so much in practice, and how their practice and theory 497 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: from each other. Um, really one of the most incredible 498 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 1: things to see over there. Um. And it's another reason 499 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 1: why Turkey wants to destroy them, because arid Land does 500 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 1: not believe that women can be equal to men. Um. 501 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 1: He does not see male violence against women as a problem. 502 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 1: And yeah, you know, as we've discussed, Turkey and the 503 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: Kurdish movement couldn't be any more different on this question. No, 504 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 1: And it's um, I think the thing because you know, 505 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 1: going over there, I went with the eye as a 506 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: journalist where like I had heard all these things and 507 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 1: and Rojava has kind of become among some chunks of 508 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 1: the left, chunks of the left that cause celeb in 509 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 1: part because of you know, the achievements of the revolution 510 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 1: in that space, and I wanted to see how legitimate 511 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 1: is it? And um. Part of why you know I 512 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: kind of went in with that attitude is that I 513 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,840 Speaker 1: had spent so much time in the Kurdish regions of Iraq, 514 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 1: and if if you remember when the fighting against ISIS 515 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 1: was at its height, there was a tremendous amount of 516 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 1: coverage of the female Peshmerga and the fact that you know, 517 00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 1: the Kurds in northern Iraq, who were the worst force 518 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,479 Speaker 1: in Iraq that collapsed the least when ISIS was on 519 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 1: the advance. Um, it's overstated how well they did. That's 520 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: why the YPG needed to rescue the z e s 521 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: At Sinjar Is. The the Kurdish military in northern Iraq 522 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 1: just kind of bounced at that point. But um, you know, 523 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: I had heard about you know these that that this 524 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 1: woman's right situation is great in northern Iraq. It's very egalitarian. 525 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 1: There's women fighters, and it is it's certainly and anyone 526 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 1: who lives there will tell you much safer and easier 527 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,080 Speaker 1: to be a woman. In the KRG, the Kurdish region 528 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 1: like control Kurdish Regional Government parts of Iraq than it 529 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 1: is further south in the country. But that doesn't mean 530 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 1: it's it's good. It is. It is more like certain 531 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: things are somewhat more tolerated, there's more freedom, but it's 532 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 1: still a very traditionalist society. And for example, I didn't 533 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 1: see any female Peshmerga. UM, they did not make much 534 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 1: of a presence on the ground and and there there 535 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: their involvement in the fighting was exaggerated somewhat as part 536 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 1: of a conscious pr strategy. UM. As soon as you 537 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 1: cross in to northeast Syria, you see women manning and 538 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 1: running checkpoints stations you see as you go in because 539 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 1: there's like you know, they like you get like passport 540 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 1: and stuff like looked at and you get like stamps 541 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 1: and whatnot. When you kind of come into the to 542 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: the region, UM, you see a lot of women like 543 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 1: running that part of the operation. You go in to 544 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 1: the actual country itself and there's we we visited a 545 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 1: restaurant that was run by a collective of women who 546 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 1: had all lost husbands in the fighting. We ran. We 547 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 1: went to a farm that was all young women who 548 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 1: had left their families who were very traditionalist in their 549 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 1: religious attitude. UM. And and go on independent and of 550 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 1: course you see um, female military units and female we 551 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 1: saw mixed male and female like military policing units and stuff. 552 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 1: And it's it's one of those things that if you 553 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 1: are going there kind of with a critical eye to 554 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: try and see how extensive the revolution can be. I 555 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,959 Speaker 1: can't imagine not being convinced of the reality of it, 556 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:02,479 Speaker 1: because it's it's just so start well also, Robert, you know, 557 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 1: first of all, just to again, you could say a 558 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 1: lot about what's going on in in Iraqi Kurdistan, but 559 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,319 Speaker 1: just to very quickly sum it up, I mean, it 560 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:18,360 Speaker 1: is a capitalist petrol state run by a plan the Barzanies, 561 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 1: you know who who a crew basically all the wealth 562 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: to themselves. And you can't even begin to compare it 563 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,719 Speaker 1: with with the kind of revolutionary project in Syria. So 564 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 1: I mean, I just want to in case so people understand. 565 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't want to use I hate to 566 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:38,720 Speaker 1: use the word socialist because it's such a it's so fraught, 567 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 1: but you could the closest thing, you know, it's a 568 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:45,200 Speaker 1: it's built on a socialist economic model, except a better one, 569 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,800 Speaker 1: well more like what my father and what Abdullah clan 570 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,799 Speaker 1: have in mind, which my father called communalism, and this 571 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:56,040 Speaker 1: democratic confederalist model is based on cooperatives, you know, where 572 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,919 Speaker 1: people really do um have the means control the means 573 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,360 Speaker 1: production as much as possible. I mean, it's obviously all 574 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 1: you know, still in formation, it's still growing and like 575 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 1: the energy sector where things that you know are less 576 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 1: like that. But are I hope in that direction. Yeah, 577 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 1: I mean obviously no, this is certainly not some kind 578 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 1: of perfect utopian in the middle of a war zone. 579 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 1: But but as you pointed out, what you see when 580 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 1: you go there is women so active in every aspect. 581 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: I would add to to what the great examples you 582 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:36,760 Speaker 1: gave the women's houses to talk about that right where 583 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 1: they are literally resolving so many problems for both men 584 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,799 Speaker 1: and women, you know, at the community level, and and 585 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 1: so it's it's really quite an extraordinary you know, I 586 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:50,919 Speaker 1: guess what I want to say about it is that 587 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 1: like if if we all got on board of you know, 588 00:35:54,600 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 1: one of that that Cretan elon Musk's space ships and 589 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 1: found a colony you know where they were doing this, 590 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 1: we'd be cherishing it. We'd be going, oh my god. 591 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 1: You know, look at these people. They're like they have 592 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:14,840 Speaker 1: a cooperative economy and they have women's councils at every level. Wow, 593 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,239 Speaker 1: men can't overrule women on a decision that comes to 594 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,840 Speaker 1: say women's bodies. Think here the Dobbs decision right on 595 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:26,399 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court. Women only women can can decide those 596 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,319 Speaker 1: issues that are related to women. And there there are 597 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,279 Speaker 1: councils at every level and people sending delegates, you know, 598 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:36,360 Speaker 1: meeting in their little villages and towns and communities and 599 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 1: electing delegates to the next level. It is a true 600 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:44,520 Speaker 1: grassroots democracy, and it's ecological, and it's feminist. It's like 601 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,640 Speaker 1: if Ursula La Gwinn we're writing about it and the disgust, 602 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,359 Speaker 1: we'd all be going wow. So so really, you know, 603 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:55,800 Speaker 1: it's something that I think, especially anybody who considers themselves 604 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,840 Speaker 1: a feminist, you know, should be supporting and and certainly 605 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,720 Speaker 1: and I hope all of us do, you know, And 606 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 1: and certainly anybody you know I would think who's an anarchist. 607 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,640 Speaker 1: To me, it's pretty close to an every anarchist's dream, 608 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 1: you know. And and so I think, yeah, I just 609 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:16,120 Speaker 1: wanted to make that contrast with Iraq because I think 610 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 1: it's really important, really goes to why the Kurdish project 611 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:25,440 Speaker 1: really needs very badly the support of people in the 612 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:29,320 Speaker 1: United States, because in so many ways, the United States 613 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,280 Speaker 1: kind of calls the shots about what can and cannot 614 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,719 Speaker 1: happen over there if you look at the problems they have, 615 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:38,640 Speaker 1: you know, to all of that. Because of course, all 616 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,719 Speaker 1: of these places are not perfect, and have you know, 617 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 1: these serious issues alongside these serious achievements. Every issue that 618 00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:49,759 Speaker 1: they have is an issue that any society would have 619 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,800 Speaker 1: if that society had been through ten years of war. Um, 620 00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:58,520 Speaker 1: we're impoverished and blockaded from virtually all economic activity with 621 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:01,760 Speaker 1: the outside world if they had had to not only 622 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,240 Speaker 1: you know, fight the occupation of a group like ISIS, 623 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,319 Speaker 1: but then immediately turn around to fight a state army 624 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,239 Speaker 1: much larger than them, you know, bent on taking and 625 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 1: occupying their territory. A society where people fear going outside 626 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,480 Speaker 1: because they don't know if they'll be in the wrong 627 00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:20,440 Speaker 1: place at the wrong time when there'll be a drone 628 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 1: strike on a local military leader going around doing their 629 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,400 Speaker 1: job keeping their communities safe from ISIS, or a local 630 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 1: political leader going around doing their job trying to you know, 631 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,359 Speaker 1: build this new system. So I think when we look 632 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:38,120 Speaker 1: at the flaws, their flaws that are the result of 633 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:42,680 Speaker 1: in large part poverty and conflict and all of the 634 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:47,560 Speaker 1: compounding crisis crises that the people of North Aneas Syria 635 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:50,400 Speaker 1: have to face because of what they've gone through, you know, 636 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:54,320 Speaker 1: as Debbie mentioned, much at the hands of larger powers. 637 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,279 Speaker 1: So much of what happens in Syria is up to 638 00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:00,440 Speaker 1: what the United States wants, up to what Russia wants, 639 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:04,640 Speaker 1: up to what Turkey wants. UM. All of these countries 640 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:07,840 Speaker 1: and regions, you know, with different priorities, different outlooks, but 641 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:09,879 Speaker 1: it somehow happens that at the end of the day, 642 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:11,959 Speaker 1: you know, the one thing they can all agree on 643 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:18,200 Speaker 1: is that, Um, it's okay to sell out the autonomous administration, 644 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:20,279 Speaker 1: It's okay to have consequences for them. You know, if 645 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 1: the Courtish people suffer, the zd people suffer, the people 646 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:26,879 Speaker 1: of northern East Syria, all of these different demographics, if 647 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,960 Speaker 1: they're the people who are victimized, you know, because they 648 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,840 Speaker 1: don't have a state, because they're fighting for something different, 649 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:35,919 Speaker 1: because they're challenging the status quo, it's okay if they're 650 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,640 Speaker 1: the ones who faced the consequences. We saw this, you know, 651 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,319 Speaker 1: with what happened with Isis. We saw this with the 652 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,680 Speaker 1: complete international silence when a fren was invaded, with the 653 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,200 Speaker 1: you know, piecemeal response that stopped the Turkish invasion in 654 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,120 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, but allowed them to convert what they were 655 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,640 Speaker 1: doing to this kind of low intensity war. UM. You know, 656 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:57,600 Speaker 1: with a terrible ceasefire, you know, with undefined lines, and 657 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 1: with these drone strikes being allowed in air is where 658 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,160 Speaker 1: Russia and the United States, both of which have agreements 659 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,200 Speaker 1: with Turkey, are active, um, you know, and both of 660 00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:12,080 Speaker 1: whom tolerate this. So essentially every powerful interest in Syria 661 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:16,960 Speaker 1: can agree on, you know, ensuring that the autonomous administration 662 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,480 Speaker 1: comes in last. And as people in the US, you know, 663 00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:24,280 Speaker 1: anyone who considers themselves on the left, who considers themselves 664 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:28,080 Speaker 1: a feminist, who cares about persecuted ethnic and religious minorities, 665 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:32,120 Speaker 1: who opposes endless war and militarist foreign policy that props 666 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:35,480 Speaker 1: up autocrats and you know, props up far right regimes. 667 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,759 Speaker 1: Anyone with any of those values should be very concerned 668 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:41,480 Speaker 1: about the situation in Northeast Syria right now and should 669 00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,279 Speaker 1: be looking at what we can do to UH, to 670 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,680 Speaker 1: get our government to stop supporting some of these very 671 00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:50,799 Speaker 1: harmful policies against the region, you know, even while it 672 00:40:50,840 --> 00:41:05,359 Speaker 1: claims to be supporting their fight against isis. What can 673 00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:09,279 Speaker 1: people listening here, presumably most of you are in the 674 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:13,480 Speaker 1: United States or Canada or Western Europe, What can people 675 00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:16,880 Speaker 1: listening here, particularly in the US, do they have an 676 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,760 Speaker 1: impact to help. Well, we could talk about that. Um, 677 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,200 Speaker 1: we could have an entire other podcast episode on that, 678 00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:25,400 Speaker 1: because there's a lot to be done. But you know, 679 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,480 Speaker 1: to summarize in a few words, the way that the 680 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:33,319 Speaker 1: United States supports Turkey's war on the Kurdish people, all 681 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,120 Speaker 1: the peoples of the region and the Kurdish National Liberation 682 00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:42,120 Speaker 1: movement is through military cooperation and support, through diplomatic cooperation 683 00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:47,040 Speaker 1: and support, intelligence sharing, and these pro war legal pretexts. 684 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:51,600 Speaker 1: So go tell Congress that you don't want them to 685 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:54,879 Speaker 1: send weapons to Turkey. There's an EP six team sale 686 00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:57,880 Speaker 1: right now. That Um, it was really great to see 687 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:01,960 Speaker 1: the majority of Congress in Looting. All of the squad members, 688 00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:07,160 Speaker 1: people like AOHC. Rashida Talai, Bilhan Omar all opposed that sale. 689 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:12,239 Speaker 1: So opposing arms sales very important something that there's momentum 690 00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:16,200 Speaker 1: there for um and that there's momentum among progressives therefore, 691 00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:21,080 Speaker 1: which is very heartening. Opposing military aid and security assistance 692 00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:24,120 Speaker 1: to Turkey. You know, I've done research on this. U 693 00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:27,759 Speaker 1: S Security assistance has trained senior Turkish officials, including the 694 00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:32,520 Speaker 1: country's current defense minister and several perpetrators of the violent 695 00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:37,160 Speaker 1: repressive nineteen eighty military coup. Obviously, we should not be 696 00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:40,320 Speaker 1: training coup plotters and war criminals. That is not something 697 00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:42,800 Speaker 1: I think most people learning this want their tax dollars 698 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:46,840 Speaker 1: to go to. So calling for an end to U 699 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:49,960 Speaker 1: S security assistance to Turkey very important in addition to 700 00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:55,000 Speaker 1: ending those arms sales and challenging the pro war legal 701 00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:59,200 Speaker 1: pretexts and designations that allowed Turkey to get this kind 702 00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:01,719 Speaker 1: of Western support. Or you know, a wonderful thing that 703 00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:04,440 Speaker 1: we saw a couple of weeks back was the Democratic 704 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:08,720 Speaker 1: Socialists of America, the largest socialist organization in the US, 705 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:13,520 Speaker 1: saying that they oppose the terror designation of the PKK 706 00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:16,960 Speaker 1: and believe it should be delisted. That's something that progressive 707 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,640 Speaker 1: support very strongly. In Europe. We've seen, you know, calls 708 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:24,600 Speaker 1: from places like Ireland and South Africa where people know 709 00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,799 Speaker 1: a lot about you know what terror designations and you know, 710 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:31,440 Speaker 1: the criminalization of struggles, you know, can can have impacts 711 00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:34,799 Speaker 1: on conflict resolution. You know, people who participated in these 712 00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:37,760 Speaker 1: kinds of post conflict processes in some of these places 713 00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:41,120 Speaker 1: saying get rid of the designation. It's harmful for peace. 714 00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,399 Speaker 1: You know, it will be difficult to end this less 715 00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:48,680 Speaker 1: violently without it. So that's something where you know, it 716 00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:52,279 Speaker 1: seems the international case for it is something that's rather obvious, 717 00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,640 Speaker 1: and where pressure in the US on the US designation 718 00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:59,520 Speaker 1: to remove it would be an important step for facilitating 719 00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:05,440 Speaker 1: dialogue and a negotiated end to this conflict. So understanding 720 00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:08,920 Speaker 1: how the US supports Turkey's wars on the Kurdish people 721 00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:14,640 Speaker 1: and opposing all of those different policies and programs as 722 00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:16,480 Speaker 1: one of the most important things that we can do 723 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,239 Speaker 1: to say this war is not in our name. We 724 00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:21,680 Speaker 1: stand with the people of northeast Syria, with the people 725 00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:26,200 Speaker 1: in Turkey suffering from Turkish authoritarianism, with the people in Iraqi, Kurdistan, 726 00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:30,640 Speaker 1: uzd S and Shngal being bombed by Turkish drones. When 727 00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:32,480 Speaker 1: we say that we don't want to support this war, 728 00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:35,319 Speaker 1: we stand with all of those people. Um And I 729 00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:39,640 Speaker 1: think that that kind of action against arms, sales, security assistance, 730 00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:42,400 Speaker 1: and pro war legal pretexts could be a really great 731 00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:46,800 Speaker 1: base for solidarity opposing endless war in the Middle East 732 00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:50,600 Speaker 1: and standing up for you know, peacefully ending this conflict. 733 00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:54,320 Speaker 1: Um And it would align us with progressives all around 734 00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:58,240 Speaker 1: the world, and you know, people who really believe in 735 00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:01,840 Speaker 1: in peace and in ending these kinds of things. And 736 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,600 Speaker 1: and if I could just add, you know, one one 737 00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:09,439 Speaker 1: element to that would also be really pressing for a 738 00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:15,320 Speaker 1: diplomatic solution to the whole so called Kurdish question, because 739 00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:20,120 Speaker 1: Rojeva will remain in danger as long as air Dewan 740 00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:24,680 Speaker 1: and and his and his party think that they can 741 00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:29,239 Speaker 1: basically that they have to be fighting Kurds because you know, 742 00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:32,239 Speaker 1: to them, as Megan said before, Rojeva is an extension 743 00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:35,640 Speaker 1: of their own Kurds and of the PKK. So what 744 00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:38,319 Speaker 1: but but what really needs to happen, just as as 745 00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:40,680 Speaker 1: it happened in South Africa, is there has to be 746 00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:44,439 Speaker 1: a negotiated settlement. One of the things that would help 747 00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:47,080 Speaker 1: with this, and there are movements that people can get 748 00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:49,560 Speaker 1: involved with if they want, would be free in a 749 00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:52,520 Speaker 1: Chelan who has been in a sitting in a Turkish 750 00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,600 Speaker 1: jail for the last twenty two years because he is 751 00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,800 Speaker 1: sort of the Nelson Mandela really of of the Kurdish 752 00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:02,000 Speaker 1: freedom movement, and he's would be involved in these negotiations 753 00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:04,960 Speaker 1: and was even while he was in jail. But really, 754 00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:09,240 Speaker 1: you know, a jail person can't really do that properly, 755 00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:17,040 Speaker 1: So pressing for a diplomatic solution because basically rat one 756 00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:20,560 Speaker 1: uses the p k k UM and the listing of 757 00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:24,919 Speaker 1: the PKK as a terrorist organization to basically kill all 758 00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:29,719 Speaker 1: Kurds everywhere, and in order to stop that, somehow there 759 00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,200 Speaker 1: has to be a break in this. And so I 760 00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:35,560 Speaker 1: think that, you know, people, there are certainly plenty of 761 00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:38,760 Speaker 1: peace organizations and people who want to work on peace, 762 00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:41,719 Speaker 1: and I think this is a really important demand that 763 00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:45,600 Speaker 1: they begin that the United States and the United States 764 00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:49,200 Speaker 1: has nothing to lose by pressuring Turkey to engage in 765 00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:52,520 Speaker 1: negotiations with the p k k This is an hour war. 766 00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:55,760 Speaker 1: The p KK has never done anything to the United States. 767 00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:58,640 Speaker 1: It would make, as Megan said, for a lasting peace 768 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:02,319 Speaker 1: in the entire Middle East, And would you know, And 769 00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:06,120 Speaker 1: and so what I would say is, first of all, folks, 770 00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:09,560 Speaker 1: would be great if people who want more information about 771 00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:13,520 Speaker 1: any of this could contact the organization that I helped 772 00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:17,719 Speaker 1: co found, the Emergency Committee for Rojeva, which is at 773 00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:22,279 Speaker 1: defend Rojeva dot org. And we have scripts to call 774 00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:27,000 Speaker 1: congress Person's resources and we even have fun monthly meetings 775 00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:30,080 Speaker 1: that people can come to. Um you know, and there's 776 00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:33,680 Speaker 1: of course a lot of information at Megan's website also 777 00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:37,160 Speaker 1: Kurdish Peace dot org. But you know, one of the 778 00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:40,240 Speaker 1: things that people could do is go out and talk 779 00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:43,640 Speaker 1: to their communities, whether it's a religious community or a 780 00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:47,920 Speaker 1: labor union or a food coop or your kids nursery 781 00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:51,319 Speaker 1: school or reading group, women's group, and sort of talk 782 00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:54,520 Speaker 1: and and help because there's a lot of people who 783 00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:58,760 Speaker 1: surprisingly really don't know much about Roojeva. I think maybe 784 00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:02,160 Speaker 1: because they're the cause, the Zabatistas are a little closer 785 00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:06,200 Speaker 1: geographically that that project is a bit better known, you know, 786 00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:10,680 Speaker 1: So talking to people and getting people engaged, and for example, 787 00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:14,520 Speaker 1: if there's anybody listening from New Jersey. Bob Menendez is 788 00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:17,640 Speaker 1: the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and he's 789 00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:21,840 Speaker 1: been pretty hostile towards Air to one and and keeping 790 00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:26,399 Speaker 1: on him with phone calls emails is a great way, 791 00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:30,320 Speaker 1: you know, for for our m As somebody who worked 792 00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:33,400 Speaker 1: in Washington for a while when I worked for Bernie Sanders, 793 00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:37,400 Speaker 1: I know that these guys listen to their constituents, you know, 794 00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:39,879 Speaker 1: and if they get enough calls, they start to pay 795 00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:42,879 Speaker 1: attention to those things that they come around. We could 796 00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:46,040 Speaker 1: even get, you know, somebody to send a letter around 797 00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:49,439 Speaker 1: to their colleagues in Congress saying, you know, it's time 798 00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:53,480 Speaker 1: to start peace negotiations. Those kinds of things do have 799 00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:57,560 Speaker 1: impact because, as I said before, unfortunately the United States 800 00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:00,400 Speaker 1: is really at the helm and on so many ways 801 00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:06,600 Speaker 1: of what happens internationally in these geopolitical battles. UM. Well, 802 00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:10,120 Speaker 1: thank you so much, Debbie, Thank you so much, Megan. UM. 803 00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:14,000 Speaker 1: I think that's that's going to do it for us today. UM. Please, 804 00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:17,680 Speaker 1: you know, continue paying attention to this. Um. Did you 805 00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:19,839 Speaker 1: want to you know, Megan, did you have anything else 806 00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,279 Speaker 1: you wanted to kind of kind of add um or 807 00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:25,160 Speaker 1: let people know actually both of you would let people 808 00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:29,000 Speaker 1: know where they can follow you on the internet. Yeah. Well, 809 00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:32,919 Speaker 1: I mean I think that that about covers it. Look, 810 00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:38,040 Speaker 1: the only solution for peace, democracy and self determination in 811 00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:41,799 Speaker 1: Turkey and in the wider Middle East is a just 812 00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:47,080 Speaker 1: and democratic, negotiated settlement to the Kurdish question. And I 813 00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:50,879 Speaker 1: think that just as Debbie said, learn about what's going on, 814 00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:54,360 Speaker 1: reach out to your communities, talk to your local Kurdish 815 00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:58,279 Speaker 1: community if there is one, find the opportunities that there 816 00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:01,560 Speaker 1: are to engage with people in Turkey, in Syria and 817 00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:04,120 Speaker 1: all of these places, you know, working for peace and 818 00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:08,440 Speaker 1: standing up for these ideas, and then no efforts too small, 819 00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:12,960 Speaker 1: because ending this conflict would benefit everyone in Northeast Syria, 820 00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:15,799 Speaker 1: everyone in Turkey and all of us here, you know, 821 00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:19,440 Speaker 1: knowing that our government was no longer supporting this terrible, 822 00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:24,160 Speaker 1: unjust war. UM, So just get out there and do something. UM. 823 00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:27,400 Speaker 1: To see the work that the think tank where I 824 00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:30,839 Speaker 1: work UM is doing on this issue, you can go 825 00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:34,279 Speaker 1: to Kurdish Peace dot org where we have research and 826 00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:38,320 Speaker 1: analysis on everything related to do related to the Kurdish 827 00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:43,000 Speaker 1: issue from all different perspectives, and you can check out 828 00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:45,839 Speaker 1: our work there, UM. And you can follow me on 829 00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:50,399 Speaker 1: Twitter UM Megan Bodette and the Twitter handle is at 830 00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:56,800 Speaker 1: five underscores m j B excellent. My Twitter is simpler. 831 00:50:56,840 --> 00:51:01,000 Speaker 1: It's just Debbie book Shin at Debbie book Action. And 832 00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:04,520 Speaker 1: again I just want to say that you know people 833 00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:08,800 Speaker 1: we do at defend Rojeva dot org and we're also 834 00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:13,880 Speaker 1: on Twitter at defend Rojeva. We have so many ideas 835 00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:17,360 Speaker 1: and so much information about how people can get involved. 836 00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:20,680 Speaker 1: Is making said, if nothing else, no more weapons to 837 00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:27,280 Speaker 1: Turkey until they begin peace negotiations, give Rojeva political recognition, 838 00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:31,120 Speaker 1: that would be another thing people can be demanding also 839 00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:33,799 Speaker 1: that curds have a place at the bargaining table and 840 00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:37,000 Speaker 1: any discussions about the future of Syria. So we have 841 00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:41,040 Speaker 1: all those kinds of ideas, scripts, as I said, model 842 00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:46,600 Speaker 1: emails and more at defend Rojeva dot org. Awesome, UM, 843 00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:49,839 Speaker 1: thank you all for for being on and um, yeah, 844 00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:51,480 Speaker 1: that's going to do it for us here. It could 845 00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:55,440 Speaker 1: happen here for the day. Thank you for having us. Thanks. 846 00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:02,920 Speaker 1: It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 847 00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:05,440 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from the cool Zone Media, visit our 848 00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:07,879 Speaker 1: website cool zone media dot com or check us out 849 00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:10,400 Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 850 00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:13,160 Speaker 1: you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It 851 00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:16,120 Speaker 1: could happen here, updated monthly at cool zone media dot 852 00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:18,360 Speaker 1: com slash sources. Thanks for listening.