WEBVTT - Trisha Meili 0:00:03.920 --> 0:00:07.400 You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:11.160 Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast 0:00:11.320 --> 0:00:14.120 are solely those of the individuals participating in the show 0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:17.560 and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV. 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:21.280 This podcast contained subject matter which may not be suitable 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:24.160 for everyone. Listener discretion is advised. 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:31.240 Hello, everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil. I'm Rosha Paccerreiro. 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:32.519 And I'm Ivet gen teelay. 0:00:32.640 --> 0:00:32.720 In. 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:35.839 This week, we're talking about the case of Tricia Miley, 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:39.360 also known by most as the Central Park Jogger. 0:00:39.840 --> 0:00:42.000 And for those of you who don't know about this case, 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:46.720 in April of nineteen eighty nine, Tricia was brutally attacked 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:49.720 and then raped while running in the park one night, 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:55.560 and later five African American and Latino teenagers were arrested 0:00:55.560 --> 0:00:59.040 for the crime. They came to be known as the 0:00:59.120 --> 0:01:03.160 Central Park Five. Then, the biggest issue in this case 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:07.160 is that the Central Park Five were innocent and were 0:01:07.200 --> 0:01:12.280 wrongfully convicted. So today we'll be talking with Jason Flomm, 0:01:12.360 --> 0:01:16.800 who hosts and produce a podcast literally called Wrongful Conviction. 0:01:17.160 --> 0:01:19.160 With Jason Flamm, I've listened. 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:21.399 To a few of his episodes, and he is beyond 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:26.160 inspiring and he is an absolute expert. But first, our 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:29.200 producer Trevor is going to walk us through today's case. 0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:33.840 Thirty years ago, the case of the Central Park five 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:37.640 shook New York City to its core. Today it stands 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:42.080 as a cautionary tale of injustice. I ended up being 0:01:42.080 --> 0:01:46.720 attacked and beaten, bound, gagged, and raped. I have no 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:49.800 memory of it because of the brain injury. 0:01:50.400 --> 0:01:53.800 Investigators quickly focused on a group of black and Hispanic 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:56.800 boys who were in the park that night. As soon 0:01:56.840 --> 0:01:59.280 as we get in, they separate us and they start 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:02.080 working on us. And I'm hearing. 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:04.400 Corey being physically beaten. 0:02:04.800 --> 0:02:08.880 In the next role, Tricia Miley was a twenty eight 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:11.680 year old woman who was beaten, raped, and left for 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:14.639 dead one night in Central Park in New York City. 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:18.919 Tricia had been raised in a suburb outside of Pittsburgh. 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:22.880 She was a passionate athlete, naturally competitive, and, as she 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:26.960 put it herself, quote a fighter all her life. Tricia 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:29.720 eventually moved to New York City, where she worked at 0:02:29.760 --> 0:02:33.560 the financial firm Solomon Brothers, where she often worked late 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:37.920 on the night of April nineteenth, nineteen eighty nine, Tricia 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:41.239 Miley left her apartment for a jog just before nine 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:45.160 pm and headed for the park. That night, a group 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:49.480 of about thirty teenagers from East Harlem reportedly entered Central 0:02:49.520 --> 0:02:52.880 Park from the park's north side. Police had been getting 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:57.480 reports of attacks against cyclists and joggers by roving bands 0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:01.880 of teens. According to one police officer, a school teacher 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:04.680 who was beaten with a lead pipe quote looked like 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:07.520 he was dunked in a bucket of blood. At ten 0:03:07.680 --> 0:03:11.520 fifteen pm that night, police arrested two of the teenagers, 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:16.880 Raymond Santana and Kevin Richardson, both fourteen years old. Raymond 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:19.840 and Kevin named thirty three other teenagers who'd been out 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:24.040 that night, and police would eventually arrest three more, Antron 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:29.760 McRae fifteen, Yusef Salam fifteen, and Corey Wise, who was sixteen. 0:03:30.360 --> 0:03:33.839 All five were black and lived in East Harlem. At 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:37.520 one thirty am that morning, police found Trisham Miley in 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:40.040 a ravine three hundred feet off of one hundred and 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:44.200 twenty second Street. The first officer who found her said, quote, 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:47.520 she was beaten as badly as anybody I've ever seen beaten. 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:51.480 She looked like she was tortured. End quote. She had 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:53.960 lost seventy five to eighty percent of her blood and 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:57.440 had suffered brain damage and internal bleeding. Her left eye 0:03:57.480 --> 0:04:01.040 socket was fractured so badly that the eye had been dislodged. 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:04.080 The only parts of her body that were left unbruised 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:07.680 were the soles of her feet and now. The interrogation 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:11.560 of the five teen boys took an intense turn, lasting 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:15.640 nearly twenty four hours. The boys later claimed that the 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:18.719 officers told them that if they would confess, they could 0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:22.760 go home, and they did submit a videotaped confession, although 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:25.960 one of them, Yusef Salam, gave a written confession that 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:29.280 he refused to sign. There were no lawyers or parents 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:33.520 present at this interrogation. The boys quickly recanted their statements, 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:36.640 but it was too late. At a press conference, police 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:39.599 announced that they'd found the perpetrators, and their names quickly 0:04:39.640 --> 0:04:43.240 got out to press. Many news stories presumed their guilt. 0:04:44.000 --> 0:04:46.599 About a month later, the same day Trisia Miley woke 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:49.719 up from her coma, Donald Trump took out full page 0:04:49.760 --> 0:04:53.240 ads in all of New York's major newspapers calling to 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:57.360 bring back the death penalty for the teens. Miley described 0:04:57.360 --> 0:04:59.840 her attacker as a young man with stitches on his 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:04.600 A detective consulted local hospitals for a man matching that description. 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:08.800 He was given the name Mattia Rayas, a seventeen year 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:11.520 old who worked in a bodega near the crime scene. 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:15.120 The detective never followed up on that lead. In the 0:05:15.200 --> 0:05:17.520 years that followed, Rayes would go on to rape at 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:21.800 least two more women. Meanwhile, the Central Park Five, as 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:25.159 they came to be known, were convicted of crimes ranging 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:29.159 from sexual abuse to rape to attempted murder. Despite the 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:32.120 fact that none of the boys could pinpoint the location 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:35.480 of the attack, and all five came up with different 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:39.479 incorrect timelines of the attack on Trisha Miley. There was 0:05:39.520 --> 0:05:43.279 also a staggering lack of DNA, physical or forensic evidence 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:44.640 connecting any of them. 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:45.080 To the crime. 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:49.360 All five got the maximum sentence. It wasn't until two 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:53.360 thousand and two that Mattia Rayas came forward and confessed 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:56.400 that he'd been the one to rape Miley. He provided 0:05:56.440 --> 0:05:59.919 details of the attack that were corroborated by DNA evidence. 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:04.719 The new district attorney conducted an investigation, after which the 0:06:04.760 --> 0:06:08.400 city withdrew all charges against the Central Park Five. By 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:12.040 this time, all but Raymond Santana and Corey Wise had 0:06:12.080 --> 0:06:16.880 already completed their sentences. Collectively, they sued the city and 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:19.880 reached a forty one million dollar settlement in twenty thirteen. 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:24.360 And so what actually happened to Tricia Miley? And what 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:27.159 does the wrongful conviction of these five young men of 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:30.640 color tell us about the flawed and bias justice system 0:06:31.000 --> 0:06:32.160 used to find them guilty. 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:41.080 So today we are going to discuss Tricia the Central 0:06:41.120 --> 0:06:45.000 Park five, and then we're going to have a more 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:51.039 organic and open conversation about the issue of wrongful conviction. 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:54.800 And joining us today to talk about all of that 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:57.040 is Jason Flom. 0:06:57.279 --> 0:06:59.919 And Although Jason is famous as. 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:04.839 A former big executive for record companies like Capital, Virgin 0:07:05.000 --> 0:07:10.000 and Atlantic, among others, Jason has spent years fighting for 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:14.160 justice and raising awareness of wrongful conviction. He's worked as 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:17.320 a board member with the Innocence Project and also hosts 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:21.520 a podcast called Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flom. We are 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:24.400 so honored and excited to have you here with us today. 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:26.840 Welcome Jason to Facing Evil. 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:30.160 Oh what a nice introduction. I'm going to get all 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:34.200 weepy here in a minute. You know, I love yes 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:36.720 and thank you for that. I am, in fact, the 0:07:36.720 --> 0:07:39.720 founding board member of the Innison's Project. Definitely not the founder. 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:42.560 The founders are Peter Neufeld and Barry Shack, but I've 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:45.400 been with them from for a long long time. Very 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:48.720 proud of the organization and what it stands for and 0:07:48.800 --> 0:07:51.400 the work that we do. And the podcast, of course 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:55.160 is wrongful conviction. And we're now Jesus of over forty 0:07:55.200 --> 0:07:59.520 million lessons and growing, so join us, and the stories 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:04.080 are every week is mind blowing. So yeah, So I'm 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:06.840 glad to be here with you all and excited to 0:08:06.880 --> 0:08:09.600 do this interview. Let's let's get it on. Let's go, 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:10.800 let's roll line. 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:15.000 Know well, I would love to know how did you 0:08:15.160 --> 0:08:15.920 get here? 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:20.000 So I got into this back around the time your 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:23.400 parents were probably meeting, before they even thought about having 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:28.280 you all. So in nineteen ninety three, I was I 0:08:28.320 --> 0:08:30.560 was on my way to go somewhere in a taxi 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:32.320 and I went to the New Standard. By the New 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:34.080 York Times, it was sold out, so I bought the post. 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:36.200 No one should ever buy the Post unless you really 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:38.080 need something to clean up what your dog is doing 0:08:38.120 --> 0:08:41.080 on the street with, you know, But I did because 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:43.320 I wanted something to read. You know, there was no 0:08:43.640 --> 0:08:45.720 there was no phones to carry around and read everything 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:47.640 on it back then. So there was an article in 0:08:47.640 --> 0:08:49.120 the Post that I was obviously meant to read. It 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:50.720 was a story of a kid named Stephen Lennon who 0:08:50.760 --> 0:08:52.960 was serving fifteen years delay for a non violent first 0:08:52.960 --> 0:08:56.079 defense cocaine possession charge in a maximum security prision in 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:58.040 New York State, And I was like, would you say 0:08:58.840 --> 0:09:00.760 come again? Now? I knew not thing about the drug 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:03.760 laws at the time. I knew a lot about drugs 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:05.480 because I had been to rehab and I had my 0:09:05.520 --> 0:09:08.800 own issues with substance abuse. But it just blew my 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:11.800 mind because I was like, he was thirty two. I 0:09:11.840 --> 0:09:14.080 was thirty two. It could have been me, you know. 0:09:14.200 --> 0:09:17.240 I was like, you know, he had been in prison 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:19.120 for six eight years already. I had been sober for 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:21.160 almost eight years. I was like that the roles could 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:22.000 have been reversed, you know. 0:09:22.480 --> 0:09:25.280 So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, So. 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:27.280 I decided I got to do something about this. I 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:29.840 knew nothing about anything. I had a mullet in purple. 0:09:29.920 --> 0:09:32.840 Doc Martins you know, but I got to do something. 0:09:32.920 --> 0:09:35.160 So I got the only attorney I the only criminal 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:37.560 the festivalayer I knew back then. Now I know hundreds 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:39.360 of them. I got the only one I could think of, 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:41.480 but the guy in Bob Colleena. He represented two of 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:43.320 my artists, Stone Tumble Palads and skid Row and they 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:45.400 were getting arrested weekly back then. So I had them 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:47.800 on speed dow. Yeah, and long story short, I got 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:50.959 to take the case pro bono. Six months later, we 0:09:51.040 --> 0:09:52.640 end up at a court room in Malone, New York. 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:55.280 I'm sitting there holding the kids mother's hand. They bring 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:58.199 him in in shackles like he's freaking you know, the 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:01.440 night stalker or something, right, mass murderer. 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:02.199 For cocaine possession. 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:06.600 Yeah, and the arguments go back and forth. The judge 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:08.080 was an old guy with white hair. I was like, 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:10.280 this is not going to go well in any case. 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:13.080 The judge said, blah blah blah whatever. He said, bang 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:15.640 the gavel down and said the motion is granted. And 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:20.760 I was like, whoa, what just happened. I was like, oh, 0:10:20.880 --> 0:10:23.640 I think I may actually have a superpower. Yes, and 0:10:23.760 --> 0:10:25.719 I'm going to this is what I'm going to do now, 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:28.320 and so it's what I've been doing ever since today. 0:10:28.440 --> 0:10:30.800 Jason, like, we want to jump into this, right, the 0:10:30.880 --> 0:10:34.800 Central Park five. And what I want to ask you is, 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:38.960 what do you remember about that case? And where were 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:40.559 you when it happened. 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:43.120 I was in New York, born in New York. I 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:45.600 lived in New York my whole life. So this was 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:49.600 a major. I mean a major doesn't begin to describe it. 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:53.320 It was a frenzy. It was a media frenzy of 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:57.920 epic proportions. And people, Now, the media would have you 0:10:57.960 --> 0:11:01.120 believe there's a clime wave. Now, there's no crime whatsoever now, 0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:04.120 not in New York. I mean not in any of 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:06.719 the places they're telling you it really exists. There's some 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:10.200 crime here and there. There's no wave, there's no It's 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:14.480 all hype designed for clickbait and selling newspapers and getting 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:17.560 politicians to be able to do things that we the 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:21.360 public really don't want them to do. Right. So it's 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:25.960 all a very sick, sinister, cynical, and cruel plan, but 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:28.880 people fall for it. So the Center Bark five happened 0:11:28.880 --> 0:11:31.640 at a time when there was actually a significant amount 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:33.480 of cime. There were eight or nine times as many 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:36.199 murders every year as there are now. It still wasn't 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:38.720 Mad Max like they would have you believe, but it 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:41.160 was a different vibe in the city and people were 0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:47.240 a little bit on edge, and this horrible crime took 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:52.120 place in Central Park, So this got everybody up in arms, right, 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:55.559 and the cops went wild and just decided to arrest 0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:59.680 five kids of color, right, young teenage boys. 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:02.760 Babes, not grown men, boys. 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:05.800 Middle school kids right, not even not even close to 0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:07.880 high school yet. So maybe some of that were close 0:12:07.920 --> 0:12:10.640 to high school, they weren't in high school. So this 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:15.079 is where things went really sideways, right, And I've interviewed 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:17.959 three of the guys on my podcast, Raymond Santana. I 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:19.600 think it was the first episode we ever did. 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:21.600 Oh, we need to go back and listen to that one. 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:25.920 That. Yeah, So it was as people have seen the 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:29.560 movie when they see us, or anyone who's listened to 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:32.520 them on my podcast or any podcast knows it was 0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:37.960 a disgusting circus. And the fact is the authorities knew 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:40.560 that they didn't do it, And if they didn't know 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:43.079 it right off the bat, they knew it real soon after, 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:45.840 because first of all, they had every reason to know 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:48.840 that there was one perpetrator, even just from the fact 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:52.040 of the grass was wet, there was one set of footprints, 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:55.160 there was one you know, bodily fluids from one person, 0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:58.719 not five right, five, Yeah, And there was no indication 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:01.120 that any of these kids were there, but it didn't matter. 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:03.480 They were good for it, and so you know, they 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:08.079 got them to falsely confess, which is a surprisingly common phenomenon. 0:13:08.320 --> 0:13:10.280 Twenty nine percent of the first one hundred and fifty 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:13.560 DNA exonerations about false confessions. And there's no reason to 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:17.199 think it's changed since then. Right, So this is this 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:20.480 is a very common phenomenon, and its madness because everyone 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:22.640 thinks they would never confess to a crime they didn't commit. 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:24.280 But everybody has a breaking point. 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:26.160 Of course, they're human. 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:30.200 It happens in every city in the country. Just the 0:13:30.280 --> 0:13:32.920 most surprising thing is how unsurprised we all are by it. 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:34.840 It's just like it's just how sad is that, you know, 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:38.680 you can't think of a city that doesn't have their 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:41.160 central Park FIVEE and there's not the center part five 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:44.360 is so far from unique. It's just the fact that 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:47.400 it was this super high profile case, or we wouldn't 0:13:47.400 --> 0:13:50.760 know about it. There are thousands, tens of thousands of 0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:53.280 other kids who went through the same thing that those 0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:56.640 children did. So two things I want to say about 0:13:56.640 --> 0:14:02.120 the Central Park five. One is because the prosecutors willfully 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:06.800 ignored the evidence that showed that it was a single perpetrator. 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:10.959 And even though that guy was right on their radar, right, 0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:14.120 they were investigating him for another very similar crime at 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:16.840 the time that this happened. This is this guy, what 0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:19.760 was his name, Ruiz ray Is rey Is right, Rayes, 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:22.160 So this guy had committed a similar crime. They it 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:25.280 should have been the first place they looked was this guy, right, 0:14:25.560 --> 0:14:29.640 But they just chose to persecute these kids even after 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:32.280 the blood work came back, which was weeks after they 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:35.120 had been arrested, and showed that none of them matched right, 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:37.440 none of them. It could not have been any of them. 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:40.360 And they knew this, and they didn't fucking care. So 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:43.840 what happens is Reyes of course gets away with it, 0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:46.000 because don't forget, when the cops frame an. 0:14:45.920 --> 0:14:49.560 Innocent person, the real person is going to keep doing it. 0:14:49.680 --> 0:14:52.360 Yeah, except for in cases where there was no crime committed, right, 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:54.000 we have a lot of cases where there's no crime 0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:55.920 at all, and they framed somebody who's mostly women that 0:14:56.240 --> 0:15:00.240 suffer that indignity. So Reyes went out and he used 0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:03.600 his time being free courtesy of the New York Police Department, 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:07.320 to rape three or four other women and murder one 0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:09.320 of them in front of her children in her apartment. 0:15:09.800 --> 0:15:13.360 That goes back to, you know, the big issue, right 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:17.440 is racial profiling. Like we know how common that is. 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:21.160 You're just talking about it. How it's it's just rampant 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:22.200 throughout the system. 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:25.880 Right. Oh yeah, I mean the racial profiling is, you know, 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:29.040 is a problem. It's one of the common causes of 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:33.680 wrongful convictions. It certainly was in this case. As it 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:35.800 turns out, it was a Latino guy who did it. 0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:39.400 They never did bother to investigate him. He ended up 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:42.240 confessing after getting into an altercation with one of the 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:45.320 guys in prison. Right, and if any of your listeners 0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:46.800 in New York, I'm very excited that I was a 0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:50.000 doctor salom use of Salam. Now he's a doctor. I'm 0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:52.800 not a medical doctor, but he's a PhD. He's running 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:54.720 for city council, which is going to be a great 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:55.680 turn of events. 0:15:56.000 --> 0:16:00.440 He's a beautiful Yeah that I allow yeah, they all are, 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:03.800 and they've because that's what we do right on facing evil. 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:07.120 We're we're not all about the saalaciousness. We want to know, 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:11.160 like what do you do after the trauma all of that? 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:14.160 You have to move onward and upward and heal. Right, 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:18.840 and all of these now they are, you know, young adults, 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:22.080 but they were children when this happened, and they have 0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:25.760 taken that and ran with it in the most beautiful, 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:27.120 inspiring way possible. 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:29.160 It doesn't erase what happened. 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:31.560 You're so right, And that's one of the things that 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:35.440 drives me forward in this work is that these are 0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:39.960 people who have been through hell, literal hell, like our 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:44.120 prison system is hell, honorate, and they've been through that 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:46.800 through no fault of their own, and come out carrying 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:48.840 buckets of water for the people they left behind. And 0:16:48.880 --> 0:16:51.560 what can you say about people like that? Right? I mean, yeah, 0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:53.760 you just you just want you want to be a 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:56.640 member of that family. And and I'm very honored to 0:16:56.680 --> 0:16:59.720 call many of them, you know, family to me. You know, 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:03.080 Amanda Knox calls me big brother. And Michelle Murphy is 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:06.119 literally like my niece out at Oklahoma. She did twenty 0:17:06.160 --> 0:17:08.560 years of a life sentence. And I have so many 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:13.400 really really wonderful relationships with you know, the Rerenzo Johnson. 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:15.640 There's just so many of these people are just they're 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:18.400 my freaking heroes, and they make me want to work 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:21.240 harder and smarter, and so that's what I do. I 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:23.439 make speeches sometimes that I say, you know, I've had 0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:25.280 a lot of number one records, but I've never had 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:27.200 one that's as good as walking somebody out of prison. 0:17:27.240 --> 0:17:30.680 I walked Nelson Cruz out last Thursday in Queens. It's 0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:34.160 an unbelievable feeling. It's so wonderful. So you're exactly right. 0:17:34.200 --> 0:17:40.040 Event these are people who are just the most graceful, gracious, optimistic, 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:44.040 time hearted. There's no bitterness. I'm like, how is this 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:47.040 even possible? And you know who said it best, John Huffington. 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:50.040 John Huffington did thirty two years in Maryland, sentence to 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:54.679 death and proven actually innocent. Prosecutor has been disbarred for 0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:56.800 framing him, one of only five that's ever been disbarred 0:17:56.800 --> 0:18:01.040 for framing an innocent man. And he's at it like this, 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:05.240 as somebody asked him, man, why aren't you bitter? And 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:09.760 he looks at him and he goes Man. That's why 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:13.320 the rear view mirror is small, but the windshield's big. 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:34.439 So back to cent Foary five. So what one other 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:35.560 thing I wanted to say about that? And they're not 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:38.560 called the exaggerated five. And this is I'm gonna. I'm 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:40.680 literally i have my hands in the prayer position. I'm 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:43.280 begging the audience. If you get picked up and brought 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:46.360 in for questioning, I don't care what they're questioning you for. Okay, 0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:48.879 they could be questioning you for mowing your lawn the 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:52.840 wrong way, right, whatever it is. Don't say a word 0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:54.880 except your name, and I want a lawyer, and then 0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:57.720 stop talking until your lawyer gets there. And that's all 0:18:57.720 --> 0:18:59.360 you do. You can say, am I free to leave? 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:02.480 You might well be. And if you are, leave, don't 0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:05.399 stay there. Don't try to be helpful. Don't I know 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:08.320 you might be innocent or this. That doesn't matter because 0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:11.080 they're allowed to lie to you. No, never mind if 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:12.760 they use violence like they did in such a Part 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:16.120 five case, and that still happens. Physical violence is still 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:18.639 a thing, and at least it's a perceived, very real threat. 0:19:19.119 --> 0:19:21.280 So in America they can lie to you in the 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:24.120 interrogation room. Not in other Western countries. They can lie 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:26.240 to you, and they lie to you about lying to you. Right. 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:29.480 They'll say, look, Rosia, you seem like a nice lady, 0:19:29.520 --> 0:19:32.280 but you know, we got your fingerprints on the knife. 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:34.639 We just got it back from the lab to your fingerprints. 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:35.440 What do you expect us to do? 0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:37.439 We got They're allowed to do that. 0:19:37.560 --> 0:19:40.879 Yes, they listen on your sister's next door. She says, 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:43.960 you did it right, she's here and you're like I. Meanwhile, 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:46.960 they're keeping you there for ten hours, twenty hours, no food, 0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:49.760 no sleep. Maybe you've been up the night before, maybe 0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:52.200 you just witnessed a crime, maybe who knows, or whatever 0:19:52.240 --> 0:19:55.960 it is. And eventually you'll say anything to get out 0:19:56.000 --> 0:19:56.560 of that room. 0:19:57.080 --> 0:20:01.000 Yeah, don't say nothing. So, Jason, I was listening to 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:06.000 you were talking to Koran Butler, which was, by the way, 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:10.119 a great interview the NBA star Koran Butler, And you know, 0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:12.440 it moved me when he was talking about how he 0:20:12.560 --> 0:20:16.000 was fighting to get rid of solitary confinement. And I 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:19.080 think about Corey wise because all of the time that 0:20:19.280 --> 0:20:23.600 he spent in solitary confinement, and it's a miracle that 0:20:23.760 --> 0:20:27.240 Corey is still who he is today. I mean, what 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:28.560 are your feelings about that? 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:31.240 Oh, we definitely need to get rid of solitary confinement. 0:20:31.280 --> 0:20:33.199 It's one of the many, many things we need to 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:36.800 fix in our gulag system here in America. I mean, 0:20:37.320 --> 0:20:42.520 what the hell solitary confinement? It's only designed to crush 0:20:42.600 --> 0:20:46.240 people's souls and make them go insane. You know, a 0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:50.600 huge percentage of people in our jails and prisons have 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:54.639 mental challenges, and then rather than giving them the help 0:20:54.720 --> 0:20:58.119 that they need, instead we put them in a place 0:20:58.280 --> 0:21:01.720 where they're guaranteed to get worse. And if you go 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:06.880 into these institutions with challenges of that nature, you are 0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:11.080 not able to follow the millions of rules and you know, 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:14.400 orders that are being thrown at you. So you end 0:21:14.480 --> 0:21:17.840 up getting deeper and deeper into that hole. When then 0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:20.239 right into the actual hole, as they call it, right 0:21:20.280 --> 0:21:23.240 where you're going to be twenty three hours a day, 0:21:23.800 --> 0:21:25.959 you know, in a five by nine foot cell. 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:28.160 That would drive anyone crazy of course. 0:21:28.480 --> 0:21:29.000 Yeah. 0:21:29.000 --> 0:21:31.159 So yeah, there was this this horrible story about this 0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:34.240 practice in the South where they were putting these kids 0:21:34.359 --> 0:21:36.040