1 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and 2 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast 3 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: are solely those of the individuals participating in the show 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV. 5 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: This podcast contained subject matter which may not be suitable 6 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: for everyone. Listener discretion is advised. 7 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 2: Hello, everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil. I'm Rosha Paccerreiro. 8 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 3: And I'm Ivet gen teelay. 9 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: In. 10 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 3: This week, we're talking about the case of Tricia Miley, 11 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 3: also known by most as the Central Park Jogger. 12 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 2: And for those of you who don't know about this case, 13 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 2: in April of nineteen eighty nine, Tricia was brutally attacked 14 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 2: and then raped while running in the park one night, 15 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 2: and later five African American and Latino teenagers were arrested 16 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 2: for the crime. They came to be known as the 17 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 2: Central Park Five. Then, the biggest issue in this case 18 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 2: is that the Central Park Five were innocent and were 19 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 2: wrongfully convicted. So today we'll be talking with Jason Flomm, 20 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 2: who hosts and produce a podcast literally called Wrongful Conviction. 21 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 2: With Jason Flamm, I've listened. 22 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 3: To a few of his episodes, and he is beyond 23 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 3: inspiring and he is an absolute expert. But first, our 24 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 3: producer Trevor is going to walk us through today's case. 25 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 2: Thirty years ago, the case of the Central Park five 26 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 2: shook New York City to its core. Today it stands 27 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 2: as a cautionary tale of injustice. I ended up being 28 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 2: attacked and beaten, bound, gagged, and raped. I have no 29 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 2: memory of it because of the brain injury. 30 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: Investigators quickly focused on a group of black and Hispanic 31 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: boys who were in the park that night. As soon 32 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: as we get in, they separate us and they start 33 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: working on us. And I'm hearing. 34 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 4: Corey being physically beaten. 35 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: In the next role, Tricia Miley was a twenty eight 36 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 1: year old woman who was beaten, raped, and left for 37 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,639 Speaker 1: dead one night in Central Park in New York City. 38 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 1: Tricia had been raised in a suburb outside of Pittsburgh. 39 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: She was a passionate athlete, naturally competitive, and, as she 40 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 1: put it herself, quote a fighter all her life. Tricia 41 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: eventually moved to New York City, where she worked at 42 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 1: the financial firm Solomon Brothers, where she often worked late 43 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 1: on the night of April nineteenth, nineteen eighty nine, Tricia 44 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:41,239 Speaker 1: Miley left her apartment for a jog just before nine 45 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: pm and headed for the park. That night, a group 46 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: of about thirty teenagers from East Harlem reportedly entered Central 47 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: Park from the park's north side. Police had been getting 48 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: reports of attacks against cyclists and joggers by roving bands 49 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: of teens. According to one police officer, a school teacher 50 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 1: who was beaten with a lead pipe quote looked like 51 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 1: he was dunked in a bucket of blood. At ten 52 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 1: fifteen pm that night, police arrested two of the teenagers, 53 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: Raymond Santana and Kevin Richardson, both fourteen years old. Raymond 54 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 1: and Kevin named thirty three other teenagers who'd been out 55 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: that night, and police would eventually arrest three more, Antron 56 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: McRae fifteen, Yusef Salam fifteen, and Corey Wise, who was sixteen. 57 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:33,839 Speaker 1: All five were black and lived in East Harlem. At 58 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: one thirty am that morning, police found Trisham Miley in 59 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 1: a ravine three hundred feet off of one hundred and 60 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: twenty second Street. The first officer who found her said, quote, 61 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: she was beaten as badly as anybody I've ever seen beaten. 62 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: She looked like she was tortured. End quote. She had 63 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: lost seventy five to eighty percent of her blood and 64 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: had suffered brain damage and internal bleeding. Her left eye 65 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: socket was fractured so badly that the eye had been dislodged. 66 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 1: The only parts of her body that were left unbruised 67 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: were the soles of her feet and now. The interrogation 68 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: of the five teen boys took an intense turn, lasting 69 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 1: nearly twenty four hours. The boys later claimed that the 70 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 1: officers told them that if they would confess, they could 71 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: go home, and they did submit a videotaped confession, although 72 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: one of them, Yusef Salam, gave a written confession that 73 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:29,280 Speaker 1: he refused to sign. There were no lawyers or parents 74 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: present at this interrogation. The boys quickly recanted their statements, 75 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: but it was too late. At a press conference, police 76 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:39,599 Speaker 1: announced that they'd found the perpetrators, and their names quickly 77 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: got out to press. Many news stories presumed their guilt. 78 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 1: About a month later, the same day Trisia Miley woke 79 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,719 Speaker 1: up from her coma, Donald Trump took out full page 80 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 1: ads in all of New York's major newspapers calling to 81 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 1: bring back the death penalty for the teens. Miley described 82 00:04:57,360 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 1: her attacker as a young man with stitches on his 83 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:04,600 Speaker 1: A detective consulted local hospitals for a man matching that description. 84 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: He was given the name Mattia Rayas, a seventeen year 85 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 1: old who worked in a bodega near the crime scene. 86 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 1: The detective never followed up on that lead. In the 87 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: years that followed, Rayes would go on to rape at 88 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: least two more women. Meanwhile, the Central Park Five, as 89 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:25,159 Speaker 1: they came to be known, were convicted of crimes ranging 90 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 1: from sexual abuse to rape to attempted murder. Despite the 91 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 1: fact that none of the boys could pinpoint the location 92 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 1: of the attack, and all five came up with different 93 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:39,479 Speaker 1: incorrect timelines of the attack on Trisha Miley. There was 94 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 1: also a staggering lack of DNA, physical or forensic evidence 95 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: connecting any of them. 96 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 4: To the crime. 97 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 1: All five got the maximum sentence. It wasn't until two 98 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 1: thousand and two that Mattia Rayas came forward and confessed 99 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: that he'd been the one to rape Miley. He provided 100 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:59,919 Speaker 1: details of the attack that were corroborated by DNA evidence. 101 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:04,719 Speaker 1: The new district attorney conducted an investigation, after which the 102 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: city withdrew all charges against the Central Park Five. By 103 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 1: this time, all but Raymond Santana and Corey Wise had 104 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 1: already completed their sentences. Collectively, they sued the city and 105 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: reached a forty one million dollar settlement in twenty thirteen. 106 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 1: And so what actually happened to Tricia Miley? And what 107 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,159 Speaker 1: does the wrongful conviction of these five young men of 108 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: color tell us about the flawed and bias justice system 109 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:32,160 Speaker 1: used to find them guilty. 110 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 2: So today we are going to discuss Tricia the Central 111 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 2: Park five, and then we're going to have a more 112 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 2: organic and open conversation about the issue of wrongful conviction. 113 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 2: And joining us today to talk about all of that 114 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 2: is Jason Flom. 115 00:06:57,279 --> 00:06:59,919 Speaker 5: And Although Jason is famous as. 116 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 2: A former big executive for record companies like Capital, Virgin 117 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 2: and Atlantic, among others, Jason has spent years fighting for 118 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 2: justice and raising awareness of wrongful conviction. He's worked as 119 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 2: a board member with the Innocence Project and also hosts 120 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 2: a podcast called Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flom. We are 121 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 2: so honored and excited to have you here with us today. 122 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 5: Welcome Jason to Facing Evil. 123 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 4: Oh what a nice introduction. I'm going to get all 124 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 4: weepy here in a minute. You know, I love yes 125 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 4: and thank you for that. I am, in fact, the 126 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 4: founding board member of the Innison's Project. Definitely not the founder. 127 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 4: The founders are Peter Neufeld and Barry Shack, but I've 128 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 4: been with them from for a long long time. Very 129 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 4: proud of the organization and what it stands for and 130 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 4: the work that we do. And the podcast, of course 131 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 4: is wrongful conviction. And we're now Jesus of over forty 132 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 4: million lessons and growing, so join us, and the stories 133 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 4: are every week is mind blowing. So yeah, So I'm 134 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 4: glad to be here with you all and excited to 135 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 4: do this interview. Let's let's get it on. Let's go, 136 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 4: let's roll line. 137 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 5: Know well, I would love to know how did you 138 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 5: get here? 139 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 4: So I got into this back around the time your 140 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 4: parents were probably meeting, before they even thought about having 141 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 4: you all. So in nineteen ninety three, I was I 142 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 4: was on my way to go somewhere in a taxi 143 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 4: and I went to the New Standard. By the New 144 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:34,080 Speaker 4: York Times, it was sold out, so I bought the post. 145 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 4: No one should ever buy the Post unless you really 146 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 4: need something to clean up what your dog is doing 147 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 4: on the street with, you know, But I did because 148 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 4: I wanted something to read. You know, there was no 149 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 4: there was no phones to carry around and read everything 150 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 4: on it back then. So there was an article in 151 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 4: the Post that I was obviously meant to read. It 152 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 4: was a story of a kid named Stephen Lennon who 153 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 4: was serving fifteen years delay for a non violent first 154 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:56,079 Speaker 4: defense cocaine possession charge in a maximum security prision in 155 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 4: New York State, And I was like, would you say 156 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 4: come again? Now? I knew not thing about the drug 157 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 4: laws at the time. I knew a lot about drugs 158 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 4: because I had been to rehab and I had my 159 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 4: own issues with substance abuse. But it just blew my 160 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 4: mind because I was like, he was thirty two. I 161 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 4: was thirty two. It could have been me, you know. 162 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 4: I was like, you know, he had been in prison 163 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 4: for six eight years already. I had been sober for 164 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 4: almost eight years. I was like that the roles could 165 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 4: have been reversed, you know. 166 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, So. 167 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 4: I decided I got to do something about this. I 168 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 4: knew nothing about anything. I had a mullet in purple. 169 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 4: Doc Martins you know, but I got to do something. 170 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 4: So I got the only attorney I the only criminal 171 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 4: the festivalayer I knew back then. Now I know hundreds 172 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 4: of them. I got the only one I could think of, 173 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 4: but the guy in Bob Colleena. He represented two of 174 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 4: my artists, Stone Tumble Palads and skid Row and they 175 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 4: were getting arrested weekly back then. So I had them 176 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 4: on speed dow. Yeah, and long story short, I got 177 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:50,959 Speaker 4: to take the case pro bono. Six months later, we 178 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 4: end up at a court room in Malone, New York. 179 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 4: I'm sitting there holding the kids mother's hand. They bring 180 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:58,199 Speaker 4: him in in shackles like he's freaking you know, the 181 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 4: night stalker or something, right, mass murderer. 182 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:02,199 Speaker 5: For cocaine possession. 183 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, and the arguments go back and forth. The judge 184 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 4: was an old guy with white hair. I was like, 185 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 4: this is not going to go well in any case. 186 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 4: The judge said, blah blah blah whatever. He said, bang 187 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 4: the gavel down and said the motion is granted. And 188 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 4: I was like, whoa, what just happened. I was like, oh, 189 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 4: I think I may actually have a superpower. Yes, and 190 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:25,719 Speaker 4: I'm going to this is what I'm going to do now, 191 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 4: and so it's what I've been doing ever since today. 192 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 3: Jason, like, we want to jump into this, right, the 193 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 3: Central Park five. And what I want to ask you is, 194 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 3: what do you remember about that case? And where were 195 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:40,559 Speaker 3: you when it happened. 196 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 4: I was in New York, born in New York. I 197 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 4: lived in New York my whole life. So this was 198 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 4: a major. I mean a major doesn't begin to describe it. 199 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 4: It was a frenzy. It was a media frenzy of 200 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 4: epic proportions. And people, Now, the media would have you 201 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 4: believe there's a clime wave. Now, there's no crime whatsoever now, 202 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 4: not in New York. I mean not in any of 203 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:06,719 Speaker 4: the places they're telling you it really exists. There's some 204 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 4: crime here and there. There's no wave, there's no It's 205 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 4: all hype designed for clickbait and selling newspapers and getting 206 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 4: politicians to be able to do things that we the 207 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 4: public really don't want them to do. Right. So it's 208 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 4: all a very sick, sinister, cynical, and cruel plan, but 209 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 4: people fall for it. So the Center Bark five happened 210 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 4: at a time when there was actually a significant amount 211 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 4: of cime. There were eight or nine times as many 212 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:36,199 Speaker 4: murders every year as there are now. It still wasn't 213 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 4: Mad Max like they would have you believe, but it 214 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 4: was a different vibe in the city and people were 215 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 4: a little bit on edge, and this horrible crime took 216 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 4: place in Central Park, So this got everybody up in arms, right, 217 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,559 Speaker 4: and the cops went wild and just decided to arrest 218 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 4: five kids of color, right, young teenage boys. 219 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 5: Babes, not grown men, boys. 220 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 4: Middle school kids right, not even not even close to 221 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 4: high school yet. So maybe some of that were close 222 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 4: to high school, they weren't in high school. So this 223 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:15,079 Speaker 4: is where things went really sideways, right, And I've interviewed 224 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:17,959 Speaker 4: three of the guys on my podcast, Raymond Santana. I 225 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 4: think it was the first episode we ever did. 226 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 5: Oh, we need to go back and listen to that one. 227 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 4: That. Yeah, So it was as people have seen the 228 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 4: movie when they see us, or anyone who's listened to 229 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 4: them on my podcast or any podcast knows it was 230 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 4: a disgusting circus. And the fact is the authorities knew 231 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 4: that they didn't do it, And if they didn't know 232 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:43,079 Speaker 4: it right off the bat, they knew it real soon after, 233 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 4: because first of all, they had every reason to know 234 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 4: that there was one perpetrator, even just from the fact 235 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 4: of the grass was wet, there was one set of footprints, 236 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 4: there was one you know, bodily fluids from one person, 237 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:58,719 Speaker 4: not five right, five, Yeah, And there was no indication 238 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 4: that any of these kids were there, but it didn't matter. 239 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 4: They were good for it, and so you know, they 240 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:08,079 Speaker 4: got them to falsely confess, which is a surprisingly common phenomenon. 241 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 4: Twenty nine percent of the first one hundred and fifty 242 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 4: DNA exonerations about false confessions. And there's no reason to 243 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:17,199 Speaker 4: think it's changed since then. Right, So this is this 244 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 4: is a very common phenomenon, and its madness because everyone 245 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 4: thinks they would never confess to a crime they didn't commit. 246 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 4: But everybody has a breaking point. 247 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 5: Of course, they're human. 248 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 4: It happens in every city in the country. Just the 249 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 4: most surprising thing is how unsurprised we all are by it. 250 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 4: It's just like it's just how sad is that, you know, 251 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 4: you can't think of a city that doesn't have their 252 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 4: central Park FIVEE and there's not the center part five 253 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 4: is so far from unique. It's just the fact that 254 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 4: it was this super high profile case, or we wouldn't 255 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 4: know about it. There are thousands, tens of thousands of 256 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 4: other kids who went through the same thing that those 257 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 4: children did. So two things I want to say about 258 00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 4: the Central Park five. One is because the prosecutors willfully 259 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 4: ignored the evidence that showed that it was a single perpetrator. 260 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,959 Speaker 4: And even though that guy was right on their radar, right, 261 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 4: they were investigating him for another very similar crime at 262 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 4: the time that this happened. This is this guy, what 263 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 4: was his name, Ruiz ray Is rey Is right, Rayes, 264 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 4: So this guy had committed a similar crime. They it 265 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 4: should have been the first place they looked was this guy, right, 266 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 4: But they just chose to persecute these kids even after 267 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 4: the blood work came back, which was weeks after they 268 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 4: had been arrested, and showed that none of them matched right, 269 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 4: none of them. It could not have been any of them. 270 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 4: And they knew this, and they didn't fucking care. So 271 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 4: what happens is Reyes of course gets away with it, 272 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 4: because don't forget, when the cops frame an. 273 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 5: Innocent person, the real person is going to keep doing it. 274 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, except for in cases where there was no crime committed, right, 275 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 4: we have a lot of cases where there's no crime 276 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 4: at all, and they framed somebody who's mostly women that 277 00:14:56,240 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 4: suffer that indignity. So Reyes went out and he used 278 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 4: his time being free courtesy of the New York Police Department, 279 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 4: to rape three or four other women and murder one 280 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 4: of them in front of her children in her apartment. 281 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 3: That goes back to, you know, the big issue, right 282 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 3: is racial profiling. Like we know how common that is. 283 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 3: You're just talking about it. How it's it's just rampant 284 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 3: throughout the system. 285 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 4: Right. Oh yeah, I mean the racial profiling is, you know, 286 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 4: is a problem. It's one of the common causes of 287 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 4: wrongful convictions. It certainly was in this case. As it 288 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 4: turns out, it was a Latino guy who did it. 289 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 4: They never did bother to investigate him. He ended up 290 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 4: confessing after getting into an altercation with one of the 291 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 4: guys in prison. Right, and if any of your listeners 292 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 4: in New York, I'm very excited that I was a 293 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 4: doctor salom use of Salam. Now he's a doctor. I'm 294 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 4: not a medical doctor, but he's a PhD. He's running 295 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 4: for city council, which is going to be a great 296 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 4: turn of events. 297 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 2: He's a beautiful Yeah that I allow yeah, they all are, 298 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 2: and they've because that's what we do right on facing evil. 299 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 2: We're we're not all about the saalaciousness. We want to know, 300 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 2: like what do you do after the trauma all of that? 301 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 2: You have to move onward and upward and heal. Right, 302 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 2: and all of these now they are, you know, young adults, 303 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 2: but they were children when this happened, and they have 304 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 2: taken that and ran with it in the most beautiful, 305 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 2: inspiring way possible. 306 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 5: It doesn't erase what happened. 307 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 4: You're so right, And that's one of the things that 308 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 4: drives me forward in this work is that these are 309 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 4: people who have been through hell, literal hell, like our 310 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 4: prison system is hell, honorate, and they've been through that 311 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 4: through no fault of their own, and come out carrying 312 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 4: buckets of water for the people they left behind. And 313 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 4: what can you say about people like that? Right? I mean, yeah, 314 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 4: you just you just want you want to be a 315 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 4: member of that family. And and I'm very honored to 316 00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 4: call many of them, you know, family to me. You know, 317 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 4: Amanda Knox calls me big brother. And Michelle Murphy is 318 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 4: literally like my niece out at Oklahoma. She did twenty 319 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 4: years of a life sentence. And I have so many 320 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:13,400 Speaker 4: really really wonderful relationships with you know, the Rerenzo Johnson. 321 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:15,640 Speaker 4: There's just so many of these people are just they're 322 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,400 Speaker 4: my freaking heroes, and they make me want to work 323 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 4: harder and smarter, and so that's what I do. I 324 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:23,439 Speaker 4: make speeches sometimes that I say, you know, I've had 325 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 4: a lot of number one records, but I've never had 326 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 4: one that's as good as walking somebody out of prison. 327 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 4: I walked Nelson Cruz out last Thursday in Queens. It's 328 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:34,160 Speaker 4: an unbelievable feeling. It's so wonderful. So you're exactly right. 329 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 4: Event these are people who are just the most graceful, gracious, optimistic, 330 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 4: time hearted. There's no bitterness. I'm like, how is this 331 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 4: even possible? And you know who said it best, John Huffington. 332 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 4: John Huffington did thirty two years in Maryland, sentence to 333 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:54,679 Speaker 4: death and proven actually innocent. Prosecutor has been disbarred for 334 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 4: framing him, one of only five that's ever been disbarred 335 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 4: for framing an innocent man. And he's at it like this, 336 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 4: as somebody asked him, man, why aren't you bitter? And 337 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 4: he looks at him and he goes Man. That's why 338 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 4: the rear view mirror is small, but the windshield's big. 339 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:34,439 Speaker 4: So back to cent Foary five. So what one other 340 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 4: thing I wanted to say about that? And they're not 341 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 4: called the exaggerated five. And this is I'm gonna. I'm 342 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 4: literally i have my hands in the prayer position. I'm 343 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 4: begging the audience. If you get picked up and brought 344 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:46,360 Speaker 4: in for questioning, I don't care what they're questioning you for. Okay, 345 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:48,879 Speaker 4: they could be questioning you for mowing your lawn the 346 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 4: wrong way, right, whatever it is. Don't say a word 347 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:54,880 Speaker 4: except your name, and I want a lawyer, and then 348 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 4: stop talking until your lawyer gets there. And that's all 349 00:18:57,720 --> 00:18:59,360 Speaker 4: you do. You can say, am I free to leave? 350 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 4: You might well be. And if you are, leave, don't 351 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 4: stay there. Don't try to be helpful. Don't I know 352 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 4: you might be innocent or this. That doesn't matter because 353 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 4: they're allowed to lie to you. No, never mind if 354 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 4: they use violence like they did in such a Part 355 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,120 Speaker 4: five case, and that still happens. Physical violence is still 356 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 4: a thing, and at least it's a perceived, very real threat. 357 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 4: So in America they can lie to you in the 358 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,120 Speaker 4: interrogation room. Not in other Western countries. They can lie 359 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 4: to you, and they lie to you about lying to you. Right. 360 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 4: They'll say, look, Rosia, you seem like a nice lady, 361 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 4: but you know, we got your fingerprints on the knife. 362 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,639 Speaker 4: We just got it back from the lab to your fingerprints. 363 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 4: What do you expect us to do? 364 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:37,439 Speaker 5: We got They're allowed to do that. 365 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,879 Speaker 4: Yes, they listen on your sister's next door. She says, 366 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 4: you did it right, she's here and you're like I. Meanwhile, 367 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 4: they're keeping you there for ten hours, twenty hours, no food, 368 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 4: no sleep. Maybe you've been up the night before, maybe 369 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 4: you just witnessed a crime, maybe who knows, or whatever 370 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 4: it is. And eventually you'll say anything to get out 371 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 4: of that room. 372 00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, don't say nothing. So, Jason, I was listening to 373 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 3: you were talking to Koran Butler, which was, by the way, 374 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:10,119 Speaker 3: a great interview the NBA star Koran Butler, And you know, 375 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,440 Speaker 3: it moved me when he was talking about how he 376 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 3: was fighting to get rid of solitary confinement. And I 377 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 3: think about Corey wise because all of the time that 378 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 3: he spent in solitary confinement, and it's a miracle that 379 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 3: Corey is still who he is today. I mean, what 380 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 3: are your feelings about that? 381 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 4: Oh, we definitely need to get rid of solitary confinement. 382 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:33,199 Speaker 4: It's one of the many, many things we need to 383 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 4: fix in our gulag system here in America. I mean, 384 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 4: what the hell solitary confinement? It's only designed to crush 385 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 4: people's souls and make them go insane. You know, a 386 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 4: huge percentage of people in our jails and prisons have 387 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 4: mental challenges, and then rather than giving them the help 388 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 4: that they need, instead we put them in a place 389 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 4: where they're guaranteed to get worse. And if you go 390 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:06,880 Speaker 4: into these institutions with challenges of that nature, you are 391 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 4: not able to follow the millions of rules and you know, 392 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,400 Speaker 4: orders that are being thrown at you. So you end 393 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 4: up getting deeper and deeper into that hole. When then 394 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,239 Speaker 4: right into the actual hole, as they call it, right 395 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 4: where you're going to be twenty three hours a day, 396 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:25,959 Speaker 4: you know, in a five by nine foot cell. 397 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:28,160 Speaker 5: That would drive anyone crazy of course. 398 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 3: Yeah. 399 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,159 Speaker 4: So yeah, there was this this horrible story about this 400 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 4: practice in the South where they were putting these kids 401 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 4: that you know, the age of the Central Park five 402 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:37,719 Speaker 4: kids are a excelary five. When they went in and 403 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 4: these little cells with nothing, right, there's nothing there except 404 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 4: for a bed and you know a window the size 405 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 4: of you know, the slit like the size of a 406 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:47,159 Speaker 4: pencil or something like that. Why do we do that too? 407 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 4: Why are they not allowed to have light? Right? Yeah, 408 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 4: And so these kids were getting crazy and they would 409 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 4: like literally like scratch a hole in the wall. Right. 410 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 4: So they ended up taking all of that away and 411 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,400 Speaker 4: left these kids basically in a bare concrete cell with 412 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,439 Speaker 4: nothing in it and no light. So they're sitting in 413 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 4: the dark, like what are we talking about, like the 414 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 4: Count of Monte Cristo sounds it's got yet get in 415 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:09,439 Speaker 4: the un wouldout, you know, would go crazy if they 416 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:11,359 Speaker 4: knew about this, and hopefully they do. And you know, 417 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 4: I heard Amanda Knox on a podcast recently talking about 418 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:19,199 Speaker 4: how you know, people who are in our prisons and jails, 419 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 4: if they're there, especially if they're there for a violent crime, 420 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 4: it's almost impossible not to argue that they have some 421 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 4: sort of something's wrong. Right, there's wires that aren't connected 422 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 4: properly in their brain. Something happened to them, as in 423 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 4: any cases they had childhood abuse. Right, hurt people, hurt 424 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 4: people hurt people. Hurt people know that. I mean, we 425 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,440 Speaker 4: know the crimes. There's crimes of opportunity, there's crimes that 426 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:42,359 Speaker 4: are caused by and this is the crazy thing. And 427 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 4: I've been preaching this in New York where our mayor 428 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 4: is running wild, you know, taking away the programs that 429 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:50,199 Speaker 4: actually help people and giving all the money to the 430 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 4: cops and then lying about a crime wave. But you 431 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 4: know what causes those kind of crimes is desperation, right 432 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 4: when you have shoplifting and things like that. And what 433 00:22:57,960 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 4: stops those crimes from happening is hope. 434 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 2: How do we move onward and upward? Like we know 435 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:08,640 Speaker 2: that wrongful convictions are going to happen, have happened, happen 436 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 2: to the exonerated five, think the gods and goddesses that 437 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:17,680 Speaker 2: they did get out finally. But what can we do 438 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 2: to make this not happen? Or how do we drive 439 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 2: those numbers down? How do we change. 440 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 4: Well, what listeners can do is, first of all, when 441 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 4: you get that jury duty notice, don't crumple it up 442 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,199 Speaker 4: and throw it in the garbage. If you're listening to 443 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 4: this show, then you're you're a lot more educated, and 444 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 4: you're the type of person we need on. Jury's next 445 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 4: thing is vote, and I know people are tired of you. 446 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,920 Speaker 4: Oh they told me the vote volvo, you vote, you 447 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 4: know what? These local elections DA races are critically important 448 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 4: because das have massive and virtually unchecked power. So when 449 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,159 Speaker 4: the DA's race in your area has happened, especially if 450 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 4: you live in a smaller community, but even if you 451 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 4: live in a big city, not that many people vote 452 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 4: in those races, your vote matters a lot. And so 453 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 4: look into this candidates. It's not that hard, you know, 454 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,879 Speaker 4: go to a paper that you trust in your area. 455 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 4: There are very few to go around these days, but 456 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 4: if there's one, or ask somebody who you trust, so 457 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 4: you don't have to do all the research yourself if 458 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 4: you don't want to. But usually it's a pretty clear 459 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 4: cut choice and vote in people who actually care about 460 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 4: these issues and who aren't out just pretending that this 461 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 4: is just some sort of weird scorecard and that these 462 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,640 Speaker 4: people that are the defendants are just there to service 463 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 4: their political ambitions or their career goals. And that's unfortunately 464 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 4: the way a lot of prosecutors operate, not all of them. 465 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:51,160 Speaker 4: So judges races DA's races things like that, and then 466 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 4: what we have to do on a more macro level. 467 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 4: We have to educate people, and we created a show 468 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 4: called Wrongful Conviction, Junk Sign and Junk Science. Is I 469 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 4: learned so much listening to it. I don't host that 470 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,120 Speaker 4: one that was hosted by my friend Josh Dubin, and 471 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 4: on Junk Science, we teach people about how these junk 472 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 4: sciences lead to wrongful convictions day and day out all 473 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 4: over the country, Like these things are absolute nonsense, and 474 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 4: yet they're allowed in courtrooms in all fifty states every day. 475 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,359 Speaker 4: My point being that that's question once you understand that 476 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 4: these sciences are not real, that CSI is a fictional 477 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:36,919 Speaker 4: show that doesn't have any relationship to reality, and the 478 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 4: same is true of most of those other crime shows. Right, 479 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 4: they're entertaining, sure, yeah, yeah, I know people who play 480 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 4: a drinking game when they watch Lon Order Lawyers a 481 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 4: group of lawyers, and every time there's a constitutional violation, 482 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:48,639 Speaker 4: they take a shot and they don't even make it 483 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 4: to the first commercial breakcause they're all asleep. I mean, 484 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 4: these shows are unfortunately giving people this false sense of 485 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 4: security that these forensic people are accurate and these sciences 486 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 4: are working and the authorities are getting all the justice 487 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 4: that you want, and the bad guys off the street, 488 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 4: and you can sleep safely at home. Everything's good. So 489 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 4: you know the idea that science constantly evolves and that 490 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:16,479 Speaker 4: things we know now we didn't know before. And then 491 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 4: textbooks are rewritten and new protocols are established. But lall 492 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 4: looks backwards. Science goes forwards. Law looks backwards. A judge 493 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,439 Speaker 4: will have somebody in their courtroom and they're saying, you know, well, 494 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 4: it's a bitemark case. And then you'll have a lawyer 495 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,920 Speaker 4: like an innist's project lawyer like Chris Fabricat, who wrote 496 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 4: this fantastic book called Junk Science. If you're a book reader, 497 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,479 Speaker 4: read Junk Science by Chris Fabricat. He's them in and say, well, 498 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,679 Speaker 4: we've proven in scientific study after study that bitemarks have 499 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 4: no bearing. Like, no, there's not a human being alive 500 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 4: who can tell you from a bitemark whether it was 501 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,880 Speaker 4: you or a vet. They can't even tell if it's 502 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 4: an animal or a human, or whether it's a bitemark 503 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 4: at all. And yet somewhere in this country today there's 504 00:26:57,800 --> 00:26:59,880 Speaker 4: a guy in a lap coat up on a standing. 505 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 4: I'm a forensic dis that pathologist, and I'm telling you 506 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 4: this is a vets bite mark. There's nobody else that 507 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 4: could have made this bite mark. And that's the way 508 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,160 Speaker 4: that and the jury is sitting there going, oh my god, 509 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 4: well that she's guilty as hell. 510 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 5: They believe what they're being told. 511 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,399 Speaker 4: So I think, you know, when you serve on a jury, 512 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 4: you need to understand these things. And also you need 513 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,679 Speaker 4: to understand that in many of these cases, there's no 514 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 4: other corroborating evidence. Maybe there's a jailhouse nitche but there's 515 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 4: nothing else. Maybe there's a false confession but there's nothing else. 516 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 4: Maybe there's some forensic guy telling you these stories very authoritatively, 517 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,880 Speaker 4: but there's nothing else. And there's controverting evidence as well. 518 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:37,879 Speaker 4: And then you've got to remember that it's supposed to 519 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,879 Speaker 4: be innocent until proven guilty, as supposed to be beyond 520 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 4: a reasonable doubt. But those principles are just words why 521 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 4: our system operates right now. So those are some of 522 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 4: the things that people can do to help stem the 523 00:27:49,200 --> 00:28:00,439 Speaker 4: tide of this scourge of wrongful convictions. 524 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 3: Can you tell us a little bit about the work 525 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,159 Speaker 3: that you do with the Innocence Project. I know you 526 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 3: spoke about it earlier. But what specifically do you do 527 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 3: and how does it help? 528 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 4: Well, what the Innocence Project does is the Innocence Project. 529 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 4: We have an intake department. We get hundreds of letters 530 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 4: a month, as you can imagine, from people who want 531 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,120 Speaker 4: us to champion their case. The majority of those people 532 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,400 Speaker 4: are innocent when we research it, but not all of them. Certainly, 533 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 4: some people are just bored. So we take on cases. 534 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,960 Speaker 4: Most of the cases involve DNA evidence, but not all 535 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 4: of them. And then you know, often we're able to 536 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 4: exonerate people, although it takes a long time, and that's 537 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 4: why we have to stop these things from happening in 538 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 4: the first place. Even the best case scenario, it takes 539 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 4: a long long time, even with a great team, even 540 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 4: with an innocence project, innocence projects all over the country. 541 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 4: I'm on the board of the New York Anessis Project, 542 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 4: which is the original one. So the other work that 543 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 4: there's the micro and the macro, and the macro work 544 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 4: is you know, arguably the most important work, because the 545 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 4: Embassis Project works to change practices and to change laws 546 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 4: in order to help make the system fairer and better 547 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 4: for everyone and make us all safe. In the process, 548 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 4: as we talked about before, by making sure that the 549 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 4: wrong person doesn't go to jail and the right one 550 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 4: for lacke of a better word, remains free. So you know, 551 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 4: that involves working on changing eyewitness procedures and changing you know, 552 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 4: forensic practices and changing the man I mentioned before, Chris Fabricant, 553 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 4: the author of the book Junk Science. I'm gonna plug 554 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 4: it again because I want. I think he's the Strategic 555 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 4: Litigation Director. It's a position that I funded in honor 556 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 4: of my dad when he passed away about eleven and 557 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 4: felve years ago. Some of the work he does is 558 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 4: Chris will take him in individual case of someone who 559 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 4: was wrongfully convicted, like Keith Allen Harward served thirty four 560 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 4: years on a bite mark case, and then when he's exonerated, 561 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 4: he'll go and use that case to help drive policy 562 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 4: change or try to get legislators to pay attention, because 563 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 4: you know, when you have an actual human being, it's 564 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 4: harder to ignore it. 565 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 2: Beautiful, fantastic Jason, what is the light in the darkness 566 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 2: for the exonerated five? 567 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 4: For you, it's an incredible time to be having this conversation. 568 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 4: They just dedicated the gate that those kids walked to 569 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 4: the park on that faithful night. Is now the exonerated 570 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 4: five gate. 571 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 5: I did not know that. 572 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 4: Uh yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a whole this winter. And 573 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 4: of course, you know, we can't mention the exonerating five 574 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 4: without talking about the fact that the evil orange clown 575 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 4: who was foul befouling the White House up until a 576 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 4: couple of years ago. But back when at the time 577 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 4: of the original arrest, he took out a full page 578 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 4: added the New York newspapers saying that we should bring 579 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 4: back the death penalty so we can execute these kids. 580 00:30:59,640 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 5: Wow. 581 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 4: And he then fought against them getting compensation after they 582 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 4: were proven innocent. And he has always doubled down on 583 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 4: his nonsensical, wrong headed and disgusting rhetoric regarding the fact 584 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 4: that these kids, who everybody knows and it's been proven 585 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 4: scientifically in the court of law, didn't commit this crime. 586 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 5: Did you see what your beautiful friend, doctor Yusef Salaam 587 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 5: said yesterday? 588 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 4: So powerful, what did you say? 589 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 2: So this is straight from the NBC News article that 590 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 2: came out just this week. It says, and I quote 591 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 2: Salaam doubled down on condemning Trump's actions, writing quote. You 592 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 2: were wrong then and you are wrong now. 593 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 5: End quote. He also wrote he will. 594 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 2: Not resort to hatred, bias, or racism, and that he 595 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 2: wishes Trump no harm. Rather, I'm putting my faith in 596 00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,080 Speaker 2: the judicial system to seek out the truth, he wrote. 597 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 2: I hope that you exercise your civil liberties to the 598 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 2: fullest and that you get what the exonerated five did 599 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 2: not get. A presumption of innocent and a fair trial. 600 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 3: How powerful is that? 601 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 4: Beautiful? 602 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 2: And that's from Clarretta Bellamy NBC News doctor Useph Salam. 603 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,480 Speaker 4: And they took out an ad in the newspaper, the 604 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 4: exonerated five. I guess I think doctor Salam was the 605 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:26,400 Speaker 4: one who spearheaded that. 606 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 5: Yes he did. 607 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 4: Yes, It's great to see the five guys, you know, 608 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 4: doing as well as they are. They still face all 609 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 4: sorts of struggles as anybody was who's been through this 610 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 4: thing they've been through, but they are survivors. They are 611 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 4: beacons of light. They're my friends, and I'm certainly proud 612 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 4: to know them and to work with them. And you know, 613 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 4: it's just one of the blessings of the work that 614 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 4: I do is getting, like I said, to be around 615 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 4: those guys, you know, so and that is the light. 616 00:32:58,160 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 5: That is the light right there. 617 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 4: One more plug. There's a book that just came out 618 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 4: by Justin Brooks, who is the founder of the California 619 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 4: Innis's Project. It's called You Might Go to Prison Even 620 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 4: Though You're Innocent. So it's a really powerful book. Justin 621 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 4: is a great lawyer, a great friend of the movement, 622 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 4: and a great man. And I strongly recommend this book 623 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 4: for anyone who wants to learn more about this amazing topic. 624 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 4: It's called You Might Go to Prison Even Though You're 625 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 4: Innocent by Justin Brooks. 626 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,719 Speaker 3: Oh my god, it's been amazing having you. As we 627 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 3: say in Hawaiian, Mahalo nuila, my brother, you are doing 628 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 3: your thing. 629 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, well, right back, Gatsian. Thanks for having me on here, 630 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 4: and I'm excited to hear our episode. 631 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 3: Today's message of Hope and Healing goes out to Corey 632 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 3: Wise and Tron McCrae, Raymond Santana, Kevin Richardson, and Usef Salom. 633 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 3: They were just kids between the ages of fourteen and sixteen, 634 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 3: and when the wheels of the criminal legal system ran 635 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 3: them over, it changed them in some ways that can 636 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 3: never be fixed. 637 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 2: And today's umula also goes out to Triscia Miley, whose 638 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 2: life was turned horrifically upside down that night in April 639 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty nine, but yet she still somehow manages to persevere. 640 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 2: She even ran the New York Marathon in nineteen ninety five, 641 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 2: saying that she felt like she had quote reclaimed her park. 642 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:33,680 Speaker 3: The Central Park five now go by the Exonerated five. Raymond, Kevin, 643 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 3: and Yusef have become activists and pushed for videotaped interrogations. 644 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:42,359 Speaker 3: Yusef serves on the board for the Innocence Project, which 645 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 3: is dedicated to freeing the innocent and preventing wrongful convictions. 646 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:51,600 Speaker 3: And Corey works as a social justice reform advocate, and 647 00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 3: in twenty fourteen he donated one hundred and forty thousand 648 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:59,839 Speaker 3: dollars of his settlement to the Innocence Project. And Atron 649 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 3: is a loving husband and father of six and now 650 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:04,959 Speaker 3: lives a quiet life. 651 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 2: All six of these individuals have survived tragedy and put 652 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 2: in the work to make the world a better place. 653 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:15,800 Speaker 2: And so to all of you who do the work, 654 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:25,760 Speaker 2: onward and upward, emua, emua. Well that's our show for today. 655 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 2: We'd love to hear what you thought about today's discussion 656 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 2: and if there's a case you'd like for us to. 657 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 3: Cover, find us on social media or email us at 658 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:38,920 Speaker 3: facingebl pod at Tenderfoot dot tv. And one small request 659 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,239 Speaker 3: if you haven't already, please find us on iTunes and 660 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:44,319 Speaker 3: give us a good rating and a good review. If 661 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,800 Speaker 3: you like what we do, your support is always cherished 662 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 3: until next time. 663 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:59,839 Speaker 2: Aloha. 664 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 1: Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV. 665 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,040 Speaker 1: The show is hosted by Russia Pacquerero and Avet Gentile. 666 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 1: Matt Frederick and Alex Williams our executive producers on behalf 667 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:25,360 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk, Donald 668 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 1: albright In Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf of 669 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:34,799 Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Carolyn Talmadge. 670 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 1: Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on 671 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:43,760 Speaker 1: social media or email us at Facingevilpod at Tenderfoot dot tv. 672 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV, visit the 673 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,759 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 674 00:36:52,760 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 1: favorite shows.