Speaker 1: I'm Anny, and this is no such thing the show
Speaker 1: where we answer our dumb questions and yours by actually
Speaker 1: doing the research. On today's episode, we're trying to figure
Speaker 1: out what exactly it would take to change the mind
Speaker 1: of a conspiracy theorist. There's no no such thing, such
Speaker 1: thing touch thank Okay, So I'll start this episode off
Speaker 1: with a story that happened to me recently. I was
Speaker 1: home in the Great State of Ohio a few months ago.
Speaker 1: And you know, when you're when you go back home,
Speaker 1: you're meeting up with some people that you haven't hung
Speaker 1: out with for a long time, oftentimes people that you
Speaker 1: grew up with.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: And so we you know, group of friends, and I
Speaker 1: went to a bar, a couple of drinks in we're
Speaker 1: talking about politics, sure.
Speaker 3: And lovely conversation to have you have a couple of drinks.
Speaker 1: Especially in Ohio. Like the people I'm talking about our liberals,
Speaker 1: but like they definitely think about politics differently than we do.
Speaker 4: Yes, you know, living in our coastal elite environment.
Speaker 1: Anyway, I can't remember how the conversation got here, but
Speaker 1: I made a joke about Pizzagate. Do you guys remember
Speaker 1: what Pizzagate of course, basically, you guys were on round zero.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Me and Noah went to college in DC, and.
Speaker 5: I used to work right next door to Commet Ping Pong,
Speaker 5: so I knew a lot of people who worked there
Speaker 5: at the time.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then but.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was crazy because then we were working at
Speaker 5: BI when Pizza Gate happened, right, and then here I
Speaker 5: am editing a video about it, and there's people I
Speaker 5: knew and used to work with and see every day
Speaker 5: talking about this horrible thing that happened.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Quick summary. During the twenty sixteen election, WikiLeaks published
Speaker 1: all these emails from the Hillary Clinton campaign. Conspiracy theorists
Speaker 1: went through the emails and claimed that they deciphered some
Speaker 1: kind of coded references to child abuse. They decided that
Speaker 1: one of the locations of this abuse was in the
Speaker 1: basement of Comet Ping Pong, which was a pizza spot
Speaker 1: in Washington, DC. And it got to a point where
Speaker 1: someone actually went to Comet Ping Pong with a gun
Speaker 1: trying to uncover this alleged layer where these activities were happening.
Speaker 1: And I think he actually shot the gun at like
Speaker 1: a lock that was on and locked door. Fast forward
Speaker 1: many years, I'm in Ohio at this bar with some
Speaker 1: friends and I make a joke about like barging into
Speaker 1: an establishment quote like the pizzagate guy, and one of
Speaker 1: the people and the group said to me, you know,
Speaker 1: you joke about this, but there's actually a decent amount
Speaker 1: of evidence out there that the stories around Pizzagate have
Speaker 1: some credibility. Now, obviously I'm a few drinks in and
Speaker 1: I decide to press him on this. I say, what
Speaker 1: are you talking about? He says that there's a video
Speaker 1: in the dark web or something that shows world leaders
Speaker 1: participating in child abuse in one of these kind of
Speaker 1: basement dungeon areas, like the one they thought was under
Speaker 1: commet Ping Pong Pizza. So I press them a little
Speaker 1: further and I ask, you know, do you think that
Speaker 1: world leaders who wanted to engage in this activity would
Speaker 1: record it on video? And that's kind of when the
Speaker 1: conversation went off the rails. He was viewing all these
Speaker 1: ideas and if I pushed back even a little bit,
Speaker 1: he would just kind of spiral into these different team engines,
Speaker 1: and I just I was blown away by how adamant
Speaker 1: he was about all of this, considering how little he
Speaker 1: was actually sick.
Speaker 3: Is this so grow up, you grew up with this
Speaker 3: guy kind of.
Speaker 1: I mean it's one of those like in the friend
Speaker 1: group situations around, Like you know, back then in high
Speaker 1: school you're hanging out with people because you're in the
Speaker 1: same homeroom.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because you don't have a deep connection.
Speaker 2: But did you get the sense from him that this
Speaker 2: was his vibe in like high school?
Speaker 1: We certainly in high school would talk about like.
Speaker 3: Loose Change or yeah sure, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: So if you don't know listeners, Loose Change was like
Speaker 1: a documentary that came out back then about how and
Speaker 1: why and the evidence that nine to eleven was an
Speaker 1: inside job. And I think like believing that nine to
Speaker 1: eleven was an inside job was like a like edgy
Speaker 1: thing for me, as like a fourteen year old to think. Obviously,
Speaker 1: once I grew a few more brain cells, I realized,
Speaker 1: like this is probably not accurate. But yeah, I remember
Speaker 1: actually now that you asked me, that we did talk
Speaker 1: about that documentary a lot back then.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, I remember watching it on Google Video. Yes,
Speaker 5: it was for YouTube, so is I just remember the interface.
Speaker 5: But that's how LEAs changed, I think was maybe predominantly shared. Yeah,
Speaker 5: I came out, which I think was like two thousand
Speaker 5: and five six. But yeah, I remember watching him just
Speaker 5: being like, wow, this is it's blowing my mind right now.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no one doing anything about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it made me think about how easy it
Speaker 1: is to believe this stuff because they'll they'll say something
Speaker 1: that's like, well, you know, the mathematical burning point of
Speaker 1: a blah blah blah, and then you see they put
Speaker 1: a week screen we were fourteen. Yeah, yeah, I wonder
Speaker 1: if that was just like kind of the starting point.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: But outside of like that interaction, No, I never really
Speaker 1: took him to me. He's like a like sports fan.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's not saying things on a daily basis.
Speaker 1: It's not what his social media. Yeah, and I and
Speaker 1: I think there's there's maybe something to the fact that,
Speaker 1: like we were a few drinks in, Like I don't
Speaker 1: know that you would just be bringing that.
Speaker 7: Up at work or whatever.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: A few sentences into this interaction, I was just like, WHOA,
Speaker 1: how do you get to this point where you believe
Speaker 1: something so wholeheartedly but you fold at even the smallest
Speaker 1: amount of pushback. Yeah, because obviously the evidence is not
Speaker 1: an existent, but conspiracy theories like Pizzagate and nine to
Speaker 1: eleven was an inside job. Like, those are very serious
Speaker 1: topics and theories that have probably led to real life
Speaker 1: harm for people. But if you're someone who believes that,
Speaker 1: like the government is hiding aliens or whatever, I'm actually
Speaker 1: so okay with that. I would say most conspiracy theories
Speaker 1: are kind of dumb and silly and just fun to
Speaker 1: talk about. I was actually gonna ask you guys, like,
Speaker 1: what are some conspiracy theories that you either used to
Speaker 1: believe or you think are more feasible than other ones.
Speaker 5: Have you guys heard about you know, Jim Morrison from
Speaker 5: The Doors, the rock band.
Speaker 3: No, I'm sorry, there's some white ship.
Speaker 1: Kim. We're talking to two black guys.
Speaker 4: From The Doors.
Speaker 5: Resident White of the podcast. Falcimore played him in a
Speaker 5: biopic in the nineties.
Speaker 3: But oh okay, I do actually notice they think he's
Speaker 3: still alive.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so he he was like part of the twenty
Speaker 5: seventh Club, which are like a bunch of rock stars
Speaker 5: who passed away at twenty seven. Anyway, there's a theory
Speaker 5: that he's still alive and is just living a quiet life.
Speaker 5: Is like some guy named Frank in like Syracuse, New York.
Speaker 3: Wow, Wow, did you watch the documentary.
Speaker 4: I think there's a I haven't watched it.
Speaker 5: There's a documentary, and then there's a new story of conspiracy.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that team I think earlier this year.
Speaker 1: I would love to watch them, because one thing I
Speaker 1: will do is fucking watch a lot of Like I
Speaker 1: don't ever believe in any of them. But there's a
Speaker 1: YouTube channel called the I think it's called the Why Files,
Speaker 1: and it's just this guy who goes really deep into
Speaker 1: random theories and then at the end he tells you
Speaker 1: why they're bullshit.
Speaker 3: Interesting?
Speaker 1: What is another one? When I was in high school,
Speaker 1: actually I was in the International Baccalaureate program, so I
Speaker 1: kind of like AP but a little bit more vibes
Speaker 1: based versus versus objective kind of fact knowing. But one
Speaker 1: of my final papers actually was about the conspiracy that
Speaker 1: there were two shooters during the JFK assassination. And they
Speaker 1: talk about this in the movie too, that like if
Speaker 1: there were only one shooter, the trajectory of the bullet
Speaker 1: that hit him would have had to curve or something. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's to say nothing about like who killed him and why,
Speaker 1: but like there's like decent evidence that there had to
Speaker 1: have been two people that's a fun one.
Speaker 3: I'm pretty anti conspiracy theory as a person. I watched
Speaker 3: this change.
Speaker 2: And for you know, forty eight hours, thought that George
Speaker 2: Bush did nine to eleven and then, like you said,
Speaker 2: you like think about it for five more seconds and
Speaker 2: you're like, actually, no, that's not what happened.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And like some of it, some of the deep,
Speaker 1: like the deeper conspiracy theories have like the nugget of.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well yeah, yeah, that's that's the thing.
Speaker 5: Because even to go back to the nine to eleven stuff, Yeah, okay,
Speaker 5: was George Bush in their planning nine to eleven?
Speaker 8: No?
Speaker 4: Is there something too?
Speaker 6: You know?
Speaker 5: Okay, they knew something was gonna happen and did less
Speaker 5: than they maybe would have to prevent it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, because of other factors.
Speaker 5: That's more of the believable side of the conspiracy theory,
Speaker 5: Like some of the some of these theories are more
Speaker 5: fun than the other ones were. Like I think just
Speaker 5: the political environments changed so much, where this stuff is
Speaker 5: so much more prevalent at high levels, where like I
Speaker 5: used to think Alex Jones is really funny. Yeah, and
Speaker 5: like you'd see clips of info Wars and he's talking
Speaker 5: about the frogs being gay because the floor eyde or
Speaker 5: this or that, and then it's like, well, it's way
Speaker 5: less funny when he's talking about Sandy Hook and these
Speaker 5: kids not ever existing or whatever.
Speaker 4: It's like, it's just not funny anymore.
Speaker 1: It's not funny because you have to think, You think about,
Speaker 1: like what would it take for someone to believe something
Speaker 1: like that.
Speaker 5: And then there's actual harm done, you know, versus like, yeah,
Speaker 5: if you think there is flat, yeah, no skin off
Speaker 5: my back and.
Speaker 1: You're an idiot. But it doesn't affect my life.
Speaker 4: That's crazy. But it's like, but truly doesn't matter.
Speaker 2: But to me now it's like it used to be
Speaker 2: funny when Bob was the one die exactly believe that,
Speaker 2: But now the issue is I feel like it's representative
Speaker 2: of so much other stuff that's happening where it's like, oh,
Speaker 2: it's not funny anymore, as so many people think the
Speaker 2: world is flat, because it's like, yeah, it's representative of
Speaker 2: likely it don't matter.
Speaker 3: Everyone thinks they're the smartest person in a room.
Speaker 1: I read a good book about the I think they
Speaker 1: just did.
Speaker 5: They did a Netflix documentary of it about the Manson murders,
Speaker 5: and it the theory of this book is that Manton
Speaker 5: was like a informant for the government, and then also
Speaker 5: he was basically let loose, like they knew he was
Speaker 5: doing all these crimes and stuff, but they say they
Speaker 5: let him do it to kind of poison the hippie movement.
Speaker 5: I think a lot of times these things aren't as
Speaker 5: complicated as we want them to be. Yeah, and there's
Speaker 5: it's more like a negligence than an active conspiracy.
Speaker 9: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think you hit the nail on the heather because
Speaker 1: it's like, there are such things as conspiracies. The things
Speaker 1: that are conspiracy theories are like the more dumb things.
Speaker 1: But obviously governments and organizations have conspired to do nefarious
Speaker 1: things in secret, and they fuel conspiracy theories. It's just
Speaker 1: that very few of these theories ever turn out to
Speaker 1: be true.
Speaker 3: Do you give us an example.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So the Tuskegee Experiments, for example, was of like
Speaker 1: forty plus year long study with the goal of tracking
Speaker 1: the full progression of in a black community. They recruited
Speaker 1: six hundred people into this study in exchange for free healthcare. Today,
Speaker 1: the experiments are viewed as at best unethical, but at
Speaker 1: worst straight up evil because these medical professionals were essentially
Speaker 1: allowing people to die of syphilis, allowing the syphilis to
Speaker 1: spread throughout the community, simply so that they can monitor
Speaker 1: and document what exactly was going on. The study was
Speaker 1: over forty years long, but fifteen years into the study,
Speaker 1: penicillin became known as the main treatment for syphilis. And
Speaker 1: so these medical professionals were letting people suffer despite their
Speaker 1: being treatment for syphilis. So if you're in that community
Speaker 1: and you're looking around and everyone's getting syphilis, and you
Speaker 1: know that some studies being done, you might be like,
Speaker 1: what the hell is going on? And it wasn't until
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two when a medical professional found out about
Speaker 1: this study and leaked it to the Associated Press and
Speaker 1: then boom, it's not a conspiracy theory anymore. And finally,
Speaker 1: some twenty years after that, President Bill Clinton even apologized
Speaker 1: for the Tuskegee experiments because they were conducted by federal
Speaker 1: medical professionals. All Right, we did a call out online
Speaker 1: to see if we could get some people to send
Speaker 1: some conspiracy theories that they believe in and why, and
Speaker 1: so before we continue our conversation, I just want to
Speaker 1: play some of those for the listeners.
Speaker 4: I guys, this is rich.
Speaker 6: Nst heads know me as rich from episode one. I
Speaker 6: think that the US military or US intelligence, so maybe
Speaker 6: either like the Air Force or the CIA, is actually
Speaker 6: behind or at least fueling the whole idea that Area
Speaker 6: fifty one was where aliens were like dissected and UFOs
Speaker 6: tested and all of that, because we do know that
Speaker 6: that's where the Utwo spyplane was tested. And so I
Speaker 6: think that by getting this idea of aliens out there
Speaker 6: during the Cold War, it could have saved maybe some
Speaker 6: difficulties and tensions that were happening with the Soviet Union
Speaker 6: when we were just building stuff.
Speaker 4: To spy on them.
Speaker 10: I think that Benjamin Franklin was a grifter with a
Speaker 10: great pr team. I live in Philadelphia, so his image
Speaker 10: is everywhere. To a degree I find suspicious. He's credited
Speaker 10: with inventing basically everything from electricity to bifocals to modern
Speaker 10: day fire insurance. And I don't believe that one little
Speaker 10: guy achieved all of this alone. He was never actually president,
Speaker 10: but was somehow always there as an advisor and Elon
Speaker 10: Musk kind of fraudster, the ideas guy with a big checkbook.
Speaker 10: I just feel like it's extremely possible. All that everyone
Speaker 10: hated him and he was a bad hang, but his
Speaker 10: reputation has been scrubbed clean.
Speaker 11: My theory is that Michael Jackson was a costrato. I
Speaker 11: think there's a lot of reasons for that. Obviously, you know,
Speaker 11: his voice never changed. He was making a lot of
Speaker 11: money as a kid with a voice that hadn't changed yet.
Speaker 11: I feel like I'm going crazy because it seems very obvious.
Speaker 12: Hey, guys, be fine of your show here. I have
Speaker 12: a conspiracy theory. The cosmetics industry is totally evil. That
Speaker 12: stuff is essentially junk, synthetic junk. They selled you that,
Speaker 12: and then they selled you the remedy to fix that
Speaker 12: damage they have caused. The cosmetics industry is selling you
Speaker 12: at the same time the poison and the cure.
Speaker 13: I think that Tesla cyber trucks are a government contracting play.
Speaker 13: So Tesla does not care about these cars meeting some
Speaker 13: big consumer market. They don't need to sell well, they
Speaker 13: don't care about bringing down the price. Doesn't matter to that.
Speaker 13: Tesla is happy to have these kind of high rollers
Speaker 13: kind of test out their weird car, and then in
Speaker 13: a few years their plan is going to be to
Speaker 13: secure some government contract and make the cyber truck the
Speaker 13: official state car of the US.
Speaker 8: That's my conspiracy theory.
Speaker 13: Like I said, maybe not that spicy, but I'm very
Speaker 13: attached to it.
Speaker 1: So there's actually a pretty funny study that came out
Speaker 1: of the University of Oxford. It took a look at
Speaker 1: the viability of some of the more popular conspiracy theories,
Speaker 1: like the moon landing hoax for example. Basically, they wanted
Speaker 1: to see how many people would have to be involved
Speaker 1: in such a conspiracy and also how long it would
Speaker 1: take for that conspiracy theory to fall apart, because someone
Speaker 1: inevitably would have to let it slip. Essentially, in the study,
Speaker 1: this is called the failure time, the amount of time
Speaker 1: it would take for the conspiracy theory to kind of
Speaker 1: fall apart. The study calculated the failure time by essentially
Speaker 1: studying other known famous scandals and seeing how long it
Speaker 1: took those to kind of fall apart. All right, So
Speaker 1: for the moon landing hoax, all right, we're talking about
Speaker 1: peak NASA employment. How many people were working at NASA
Speaker 1: at the time, four hundred and eleven thousand employees. According
Speaker 1: to the study, it would take approximately three and a
Speaker 1: half years before the employees like, you know, let it slip.
Speaker 4: That's pretty impressive. Eleven and three. I would think not
Speaker 4: all being paid.
Speaker 2: Well yeah, I mean I think about a couple of
Speaker 2: months if that oh yeah, that being said not to
Speaker 2: be that guy, but not everyone at NASA needed to
Speaker 2: know that it was fake.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point. But I would say that
Speaker 1: maybe if someone at NASA who wasn't involved with the
Speaker 1: moon landing, they're probably still smart enough to know how
Speaker 1: many people it would take to put someone on the moon. Yes,
Speaker 1: and so if they knew the team size or whatever, yeah,
Speaker 1: you might be able to be like, well that's fishy
Speaker 1: if it's only taking five people.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, only on this project.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Another conspiracy theory that this study looked at was the
Speaker 1: suppression of the cancer cure. So this idea that these
Speaker 1: institutions could find a cure for cancer or already have
Speaker 1: a cure for cancer, but won't release it because they
Speaker 1: can make more money by treating cancer, that would take
Speaker 1: three point one seven years to fall apart, according to
Speaker 1: the study.
Speaker 2: Well that one, it's like, no, you just say we
Speaker 2: have the cares, it's gonna cost you a lot of
Speaker 2: money to get it.
Speaker 1: Well, have you guys seen Common Side Effects on HBO?
Speaker 8: No, I need to.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll recommend this to our listeners. Basically, it's this
Speaker 1: animated show. It's by some of the people who did
Speaker 1: King of the Hill, and it's about big pharma suppressing
Speaker 1: a magic mushroom that's like a cure all for all
Speaker 1: kinds of diseases. It's really funny and it's also really smart.
Speaker 1: It makes you think a lot about how the healthcare
Speaker 1: system is set up in this country. And honestly, it's
Speaker 1: hilarious to hear the voice of Hank Hill being like
Speaker 1: a pharma executive.
Speaker 9: They brought me in, a CEO with one job settled
Speaker 9: a huge fucking lawsuit that's coming at us because of
Speaker 9: the depression and the suicidal thoughts that were a side
Speaker 9: effect allegedly of spumaiva, which you know, no one talks
Speaker 9: about how much arthritis we alleviated.
Speaker 1: But fine, So the he's in I wanted to discuss
Speaker 1: this today is because I recently listened to another podcast
Speaker 1: called Alternate Realities. It's by a friend of mine named
Speaker 1: Zach Mack. He's a reporter, a journalist and a podcaster.
Speaker 1: And the whole show is about trying to convince his
Speaker 1: father to stop believing in kind of QAnon conspiracy theories.
Speaker 1: Since he has done a three episode piece on this,
Speaker 1: I felt like he'd be a good person to get
Speaker 1: in here and talk about you know what exactly would
Speaker 1: it take to convince someone that their crazy conspiracy theory
Speaker 1: is not true? So that's after the break.
Speaker 14: It's called de Niana's freedom of speech. No, it's called
Speaker 14: num of speech. It's misinformation. Now, who gets the right
Speaker 14: to label it misinformation? When all these things happen, then
Speaker 14: you will realize that I'm not as big a crackpot
Speaker 14: as you think I am, and that these are not
Speaker 14: conspiracy theories. These are reality. You're going to go, wow,
Speaker 14: that's amazing. How did he know that?
Speaker 1: That was a clip from Alternate Realities, a three episode
Speaker 1: story that you can find on NPR's embedded series. We're
Speaker 1: here with the creator of that show, Zach Mack. He's
Speaker 1: a producer, he's a journalist, and he's a homie. He's
Speaker 1: a friend of the pod. Thanks for being.
Speaker 8: Here, Yeah, yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: I listened to the show. It's incredible. It made me
Speaker 1: tear up. It made me, you know, roller coaster of emotions.
Speaker 1: But for people who haven't listened to it, could you
Speaker 1: give us like a little premise, you know, walk us
Speaker 1: through what happens.
Speaker 15: Yeah, my father has been falling down the conspiracy rabbit
Speaker 15: hole over the couple of years, last few years, and
Speaker 15: a little over a year ago I had confronted him
Speaker 15: about it, and of course he didn't want to hear me.
Speaker 15: We had just been having these same like circular arguments.
Speaker 15: And what he did next surprise me, which is he
Speaker 15: challenged me to a ten thousand dollars bet that ten
Speaker 15: of his predictions, they're very like politically apocalyptic predictions that
Speaker 15: he all believed was going to come true by the
Speaker 15: end of the year. So we made this bet early
Speaker 15: twenty twenty four, and he said, by the end of
Speaker 15: the year, these ten things will happen. I bet you
Speaker 15: ten thousand dollars that they will. And when they all happen,
Speaker 15: you'll see that I know what I'm talking about, and
Speaker 15: you have no idea what you're talking about. And I
Speaker 15: took a look at the bet, like his proposal, and
Speaker 15: I was like, oh, you're on none of these things.
Speaker 15: I didn't believe any of these things were going to happen.
Speaker 15: The moment he proposed the bet, I sort of immediately
Speaker 15: knew that this would be a good podcast story because
Speaker 15: I'm a podcast producer and I'm sort of trained to
Speaker 15: look for like the elements that would make a good series,
Speaker 15: And so I asked if I could interview him throughout
Speaker 15: the year and we could check in, and he agreed
Speaker 15: to it, and so that's what the show is, is like,
Speaker 15: you're hearing us make this bet, but you're also hearing
Speaker 15: how his beliefs are impacting our family, which is has
Speaker 15: been very difficult, you know, for my mother, for my sister,
Speaker 15: for myself, And that's why the series is a little
Speaker 15: bit heavy. But he was such a willing participant, and
Speaker 15: we joke around a lot, So the series also feels
Speaker 15: kind of light because we're joking around, we're betting, like guys,
Speaker 15: do you know I feel like whenever guys can't settle argument,
Speaker 15: it either comes down to betting or boxing.
Speaker 8: And you know, so it was, yeah, could you.
Speaker 4: Just lost like a couple of the his what you
Speaker 4: were betting on it? Just like maybe three or four.
Speaker 15: Yeah, So some of his predictions were like the US
Speaker 15: would come under martial law, that Donald Trump would be
Speaker 15: reinstated without an election, that all of these top Democrats
Speaker 15: like Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi, and Joe Biden would be
Speaker 15: rounded up and convicted of treason. It was all very
Speaker 15: like politically apocalyptic, you know. He thought that a electromagnetic
Speaker 15: pulse device would like wipe out all digital communication across
Speaker 15: the US.
Speaker 1: And is this this is officially like q and on
Speaker 1: stuff or is a lot of it outside of Okay.
Speaker 15: Yeah, a lot of it is qan on stuff. A
Speaker 15: lot of it is just like the right wing greatest
Speaker 15: hits fantasy. I should say. My father is like a
Speaker 15: Christian conservative. Yeah, so it's it's like kind of playing
Speaker 15: in that sphere.
Speaker 7: That sphere.
Speaker 15: But some of it is just like mainstream now, you know,
Speaker 15: it's all very mainstream at this point, but yeah, it's
Speaker 15: a lot of the greatest hits. None of the things
Speaker 15: is like are like, we're like things that you hadn't
Speaker 15: heard before.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, I was just telling them a story about
Speaker 1: like an old high school friend of mine who has
Speaker 1: all these beliefs too, about like the Pizzagate and stuff.
Speaker 1: But my kind of interactions with him are very brief.
Speaker 1: It's like, all right, yeah, you you're kind of crazy,
Speaker 1: but uh, I'm going home now. But I can't imagine
Speaker 1: what it would feel like for someone to have these
Speaker 1: beliefs and it's someone you like grew up with in
Speaker 1: your immediate family, like someone you know and love. I'm
Speaker 1: kind of curious how challenging actually was it to produce this?
Speaker 1: You already knew what you wanted to do from a
Speaker 1: blueprint standpoint, but like, how hard was it to execute?
Speaker 6: It was?
Speaker 7: Really?
Speaker 4: It was.
Speaker 15: It was like the hardest thing I've ever had to
Speaker 15: do emotionally, Like it was. It was just very challenging
Speaker 15: to like write and piece together this series and even
Speaker 15: just having to like cut tape of hearing my sister
Speaker 15: crying over and over and figuring out how to position
Speaker 15: that into an episode.
Speaker 13: It was.
Speaker 15: It was very strange for me as a producer. Normally
Speaker 15: I'm working on things that have to do with like
Speaker 15: pop culture or tech. I'm never reporting on my own
Speaker 15: family and my own emotional state. So yeah, it was
Speaker 15: it was quite challenging to make. But it was also
Speaker 15: really beautiful because before we started the series, my father
Speaker 15: and I were just having circular arguments.
Speaker 4: That were going nowhere.
Speaker 15: Once we agreed to make a show and I had
Speaker 15: to interview him, the dynamic of our conversations changed completely
Speaker 15: and we were able to have like really deep and
Speaker 15: meaningful conversations and just talk without arguing, and I could
Speaker 15: just listen to him and try to understand him a
Speaker 15: little bit better and how he got here and we
Speaker 15: got closer.
Speaker 7: We were not close.
Speaker 15: Before the series, and we got closer than we ever have,
Speaker 15: and we've sort of been able to talk about things
Speaker 15: that we never could before.
Speaker 14: This is incredibly refreshing to be able to have these
Speaker 14: kind of conversations with you.
Speaker 7: Do you feel like I know you now better?
Speaker 11: Oh?
Speaker 1: Absolutely? Was?
Speaker 15: That was like the real benefit, like the positive that
Speaker 15: came out of it, but it was super challenging to
Speaker 15: make Like emotionally.
Speaker 2: Yeah, did you feel like the show gave you like
Speaker 2: a framework to talk to your dad? Like what was
Speaker 2: the difference in the conversations, Like why did you feel
Speaker 2: like before you were talking in circles and then during
Speaker 2: the show you felt like the conversations were more productive?
Speaker 3: What was that difference?
Speaker 9: Yeah?
Speaker 15: I think because when we were talking in circles, I
Speaker 15: was just being like in emotional son, I was just
Speaker 15: being like in an upset family member, Yeah, and trying
Speaker 15: to win an argument, totally totally trying to win the
Speaker 15: argument and prove how stupid he is.
Speaker 7: You know, it's just getting We were just getting like
Speaker 7: really routed up.
Speaker 15: Yeah, And then once we started the show, I had
Speaker 15: to approach that differently. Right, you can't just like scream
Speaker 15: at somebody on the mic. I guess some people can't,
Speaker 15: but like, that's just not how I conduct interviews. I
Speaker 15: wanted to really understand like how he got here, and
Speaker 15: I just tried to be as patient and as empathetic
Speaker 15: as I could and really approach you with a lot
Speaker 15: more curiosity and just asking questions and trying to listen more,
Speaker 15: and talking to experts and doing research and finding out
Speaker 15: more and more about this world and really just yeah,
Speaker 15: taking a genuine interest. I think that that was like
Speaker 15: the real difference.
Speaker 1: I want to talk about some of the research and
Speaker 1: experts that you interacted with YEA to produce the show,
Speaker 1: But first we're doing this episode because we want to
Speaker 1: find out what exactly it would take to change someone's mind.
Speaker 1: You felt like the perfect person to talk about this
Speaker 1: because you set out to do that in your show
Speaker 1: and I'm not gonna spoil everything. I think everyone should
Speaker 1: go listen to it. But it's probably no surprise that
Speaker 1: like the ten things that your father laid out didn't tappen.
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, he was zero for ten.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, far far far yeah. And so I'm curious, like,
Speaker 1: after this experience, what do you personally think it would take.
Speaker 1: I mean, is the answer simply just like a more
Speaker 1: of an open mind from the conspiracy theorist.
Speaker 7: I think it depends on who you're talking to and
Speaker 7: what they believe the more.
Speaker 15: When I started this whole process, I sort of just thought, oh,
Speaker 15: my dad just has the wrong facts. Let me just
Speaker 15: go get them the right facts and replace them, and
Speaker 15: he'll be on his way and we'll be set. And
Speaker 15: that's just not how it works. That doesn't work at all.
Speaker 15: You really have to be almost like investigative and understand
Speaker 15: what are these beliefs doing for them? You know, what
Speaker 15: are they doing for them? What are the things in
Speaker 15: their background maybe that like transpired that kind of got
Speaker 15: them to this place. So much of it comes from
Speaker 15: a distrust of institutions. My grandfather was a chiropractor, right,
Speaker 15: and very embittered towards the medical society and was sort
Speaker 15: of like run out of business. So my father grew
Speaker 15: up in an anti VAXX household with a dad who
Speaker 15: you know, hated the medical institution and hated big government.
Speaker 15: So it's no surprise that he's also distrusting of these
Speaker 15: large institutions and things like that. So I think a
Speaker 15: lot of people will have things like that in their background,
Speaker 15: and you can follow them down that pathway and start
Speaker 15: to understand how they got here, But yeah, you really
Speaker 15: have to get under the hood and understand like what
Speaker 15: is it, like, what are these beliefs doing for them?
Speaker 1: And yeah, is the idea that like, for example, we
Speaker 1: not your dad, but like a conspiracy theorists, if they
Speaker 1: are getting maybe a sense of community from being on
Speaker 1: like all the forums or whatever, is the idea that
Speaker 1: maybe if they found a sense of community in you know,
Speaker 1: some in some other facet of their lives, that they
Speaker 1: might not be so inclined to believe the theory the
Speaker 1: conspiracy theories totally.
Speaker 15: One of the experts I was talking to who's Who's
Speaker 15: a former evangelical pastor, and he was talking about how
Speaker 15: his parents were into a lot of this stuff. A
Speaker 15: lot of the QAnon stuff, and they were talking about
Speaker 15: it all the time and how Obama was the Antichrist
Speaker 15: and all this stuff.
Speaker 7: And then he said they moved to.
Speaker 15: A retirement home in Florida and like had this really
Speaker 15: great community and they're golfing and they're drinking, they're hanging
Speaker 15: out with friends, and he just said, they.
Speaker 7: Just never talk about that stuff anymore.
Speaker 15: Doesn't mean they don't believe it, yeah, but they're just
Speaker 15: they don't need it. It's it's not of interest. And
Speaker 15: so I think a lot of times when you see
Speaker 15: like conspiracies, they are doing something like some of the
Speaker 15: things that they do for people, Like the main reasons
Speaker 15: are access to a community or it's it's.
Speaker 7: Also like access to esoteric knowledge.
Speaker 15: It's like I know something you don't know, so it
Speaker 15: kind of elevates you in status, like I'm up on this.
Speaker 15: And you see that behavior all the time, Like it's
Speaker 15: not just conspiracy theories like you see it with hype beasts. Right,
Speaker 15: I got these special sneakers, you can't get these rights.
Speaker 15: It's fulfilling the same need, just in a different different space.
Speaker 15: So there's all these different ways. I think a lot
Speaker 15: of times people are just afraid and want to be
Speaker 15: told that everything's going to be okay, or they want
Speaker 15: to understand the way the world works, and sometimes even
Speaker 15: telling them a really scary vision, but like this is
Speaker 15: what's going on. It feels definitive. And when things are definitive,
Speaker 15: they're a little more calming because you know, you know
Speaker 15: the answer instead of just I don't know how this happened.
Speaker 7: I don't know how COVID got out.
Speaker 1: You know that is really interesting because in the interactions
Speaker 1: I've had with my kind of like the friend that
Speaker 1: I grew up with, there always does seem to be
Speaker 1: like an air of like condescension, a little bit of like, oh,
Speaker 1: actually you would feel like I felt if you did.
Speaker 4: More reading, Yeah, right, if you were on my level.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's like the J cole fan Yeah, yeah, exactly,
Speaker 7: But you.
Speaker 1: Have to be on a specific level to enjoy this music.
Speaker 7: This music is good if you're really smart.
Speaker 15: Yeah, it's exactly like the J cole fans, Like you
Speaker 15: just see it in all these different spaces, and some
Speaker 15: people choose to get there through conspiracies, but other times
Speaker 15: it's sneakerheads or ja.
Speaker 9: Yeah.
Speaker 5: When you were saying that, I was thinking of, like
Speaker 5: I feel like when you read interviews, it's like someone
Speaker 5: who used to be in like the KKK or something,
Speaker 5: and it's like a lot of times it's like it
Speaker 5: doesn't seem like they actually even care about race. It's
Speaker 5: like they had some upbringing or whatever. And then it's
Speaker 5: like they're lonely. And then there's some older guy who's
Speaker 5: involved in this stuff and they take them under their
Speaker 5: wing and then it's just like boom, seems like a
Speaker 5: fun thing to do.
Speaker 4: I guess yeah, it's like it's like more like you're
Speaker 4: just bored and like need friends.
Speaker 15: One of the things I've seen is that with with QAnon,
Speaker 15: that and a lot of these conspiracies, they cast you
Speaker 15: as an active participant in the conspiracies. It's like, hey,
Speaker 15: you're not just some dude sitting on the couch. You
Speaker 15: are a soldier in a secret war that's being fought
Speaker 15: behind the scenes.
Speaker 7: Like you are important.
Speaker 15: So it gives you a sense of importance or it
Speaker 15: casts like a lot of times it's like these people
Speaker 15: are lonely or you know, maybe they don't feel of use,
Speaker 15: and suddenly they're cast as like a protector for their
Speaker 15: own family.
Speaker 7: Right, It's like, I know this secret knowledge.
Speaker 15: I have access to this secret knowledge, and now I
Speaker 15: can inform you and thus be of use again. And
Speaker 15: that's like that, that's a really compelling.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just hearing about it.
Speaker 4: Yes, where do we sign up?
Speaker 1: One question I have is like, there's there are probably
Speaker 1: a lot of people in your position, like people who's
Speaker 1: paying parents are kind of deep into this, or maybe
Speaker 1: they have a sibling. You know, what would be your
Speaker 1: kind of advice for someone who's in this scenario?
Speaker 15: Yeah, I mean, since I've put the project out, I've
Speaker 15: heard from literal hundreds of strangers who are like, I'm
Speaker 15: going through this exact same thing, and I realized how
Speaker 15: ununique my story was, that this is just millions of
Speaker 15: households across across the country. My advice would just be
Speaker 15: try to be curious about what's going on. You know,
Speaker 15: it's to the extent that you can be empathetic, be curious,
Speaker 15: be patient, do your research. And also, I think it
Speaker 15: just has to come with a level of acceptance that
Speaker 15: you will most likely not be able to change this
Speaker 15: person's mind.
Speaker 7: And that's the really.
Speaker 15: Tough pill to swallow, because it's really hard to change
Speaker 15: someone's mind, especially most deep beliefs don't feel like choices.
Speaker 15: You know, you think about the things that you believe deeply,
Speaker 15: you would probably feel like you don't have a choice
Speaker 15: in that matter. I couldn't just tell you, like, Manny,
Speaker 15: believe this differently, Yeah right now, you it's it takes
Speaker 15: a lot to kind of unwind that. So you sort
Speaker 15: of just have to understand, like what is your threshold
Speaker 15: of tolerance for this person being in your life, and
Speaker 15: you know, being as patient and empathetic as you can
Speaker 15: asking questions.
Speaker 1: That's a really good point. I mean, I'm trying to
Speaker 1: think of my deeply held beliefs. Like, for example, if
Speaker 1: if one of you guys are like, well, here's a
Speaker 1: couple of reasons why universal health care actually might not work,
Speaker 1: I was I be like, actually, I hear you, but
Speaker 1: I still think we should do it. Yeah, they're like
Speaker 1: foundational belief and we've.
Speaker 4: Been trying to get him to back off this.
Speaker 7: Well, think you and I have a similar deep belief.
Speaker 15: You couldn't get us off that we believe like Lebron
Speaker 15: James is the greatest basketball right, Like what would it take?
Speaker 1: It would have to be like one hundred or two
Speaker 1: hundred years from now, or someone has built like someone
Speaker 1: has built like a system where we can actually test
Speaker 1: it out where you go back in time put Lebron James. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what that's what it would take for I would
Speaker 1: have to watch it. I would have to watch peak
Speaker 1: Michael Jordan beat the peak Lebron James.
Speaker 15: But then you're talking about one on one, which is
Speaker 15: a whole different game. And does Michael Jordan have access
Speaker 15: to the diet plan that Lebron is on and all,
Speaker 15: like you know nutrition.
Speaker 1: Yea one hundred Michael Jordan's us.
Speaker 15: Things you believe deeply don't feel like choices, and so
Speaker 15: it's it's really hard to change someone's mind.
Speaker 2: So it's the goal then to just like make it manageable.
Speaker 2: Like you're talking about those people who move to Florida, right,
Speaker 2: It's like they may still believe it, Like the parents
Speaker 2: maybe still believe it, but let's not talk about it
Speaker 2: at dinner, you know, like you guys, that's your thing.
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, and even like in your family, obviously, the
Speaker 5: dynamics between you and your dad is different than your
Speaker 5: sister and your dad, and your mother and your dad,
Speaker 5: and you know, it seems like you and your dad
Speaker 5: are closer than you were before. Your relationship seems in
Speaker 5: some ways maybe better but different clearly than his relationship
Speaker 5: with the other people in your family.
Speaker 4: I mean, how does that feel?
Speaker 15: So, I mean, just to be clear, when I got
Speaker 15: into this, it was to change my father's mind. Like,
Speaker 15: I didn't get into this to be more patient with him.
Speaker 15: I got into it to win a bet and to
Speaker 15: try to change his mind, to pull him out of
Speaker 15: this rabbit hole. I think as the year went on
Speaker 15: there there was a new level of understanding of how
Speaker 15: he got here and why he's here, and also a
Speaker 15: deeper understanding of how difficult it is to pull someone out,
Speaker 15: and a little bit of a just an acceptance of
Speaker 15: what is. But the reality is, like millions of people
Speaker 15: are really falling down these rabbit holes throughout the country,
Speaker 15: and I don't think we should just all be patient
Speaker 15: about it.
Speaker 7: Like, I think this is.
Speaker 15: A real problem that we have to work as hard
Speaker 15: as we can to fix. And it's not just hey,
Speaker 15: be nicer and more empathetic at the dinner table, right
Speaker 15: like that that helps me with my father in our
Speaker 15: one on one relationship. That does not help the country
Speaker 15: and the state that we're in.
Speaker 1: So some of these people with these beliefs are starting
Speaker 1: to become elected, so.
Speaker 4: A lot more urgent. Yeah, I think, well.
Speaker 1: Great man, thanks for thanks for coming to hang out
Speaker 1: with us. Be sure to go listen to Alternate Realities.
Speaker 1: Where can people find that?
Speaker 15: Yeah, Alternate Reality is on NPR embedded. Uh, that's that's where.
Speaker 15: That's where to hear it.
Speaker 1: Great, all right, we're back. What did you guys think, Well,
Speaker 1: you know, obviously I listen to the series.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it is still a little depressing to hear
Speaker 2: that you can do all this research, all this work
Speaker 2: and it's still basically impossible.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think I was really I was most moved and
Speaker 1: convinced by when he was talking about, you know, replacing
Speaker 1: someone's need for community. For example, if someone is in
Speaker 1: these like online communities and they basically are there because
Speaker 1: they need a sense of community, you might be able
Speaker 1: to replace that community with something a little more healthy,
Speaker 1: and then they might not be as susceptible to the
Speaker 1: conspiracy theories. Now, now, the people he was talking about
Speaker 1: that move to Florida don't necessarily talk about conspiracy theories anymore.
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean they don't believe him, but it's not
Speaker 1: kind of like ruling their lives in the way that
Speaker 1: it was. I mean, I just think about it's like,
Speaker 1: forget conspiracy theories. It's like, you know, people double bling
Speaker 1: down on things.
Speaker 5: It's like, well, even if you're wrong about something small,
Speaker 5: like how many times have you been in a dumb
Speaker 5: argument and you just don't want to say you're wrong
Speaker 5: because you're embarrassed, you know, and it's.
Speaker 4: Like show it be some minor things.
Speaker 5: Yeah, It's like it could be some minor thing like oh, yeah,
Speaker 5: you forgot to take the chicken out of the fridge
Speaker 5: or you know what I mean, it's like something stupid
Speaker 5: like that, and just like, oh.
Speaker 4: No I didn't and it's like.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's like just a dumb thing like that, and
Speaker 5: like okay, so this is much more extreme, but like
Speaker 5: that makes it even harder to then back down from
Speaker 5: because it's like, well, now I've been talking about this
Speaker 5: for years, yeah, you know, alienating my family or whatever.
Speaker 5: It's like, yeah, I'm not going to just be like
Speaker 5: you know what, I read this article.
Speaker 4: Mm hmm, you're right.
Speaker 1: It is so hard. I think it's like something about
Speaker 1: it must be just human nature, like something that's so
Speaker 1: hard about being like actually I was wrong about this thing.
Speaker 1: But I remember some of those early arguments we used
Speaker 1: to have at BI when we talk about them today,
Speaker 1: I don't even remember what my stance was. That's exactly
Speaker 1: and that and that goes to show you how much
Speaker 1: I didn't care about the actual argument, but I just
Speaker 1: wanted to argue, and like wanted not to say that
Speaker 1: I was wrong. Thanks for listening to No Such Thing
Speaker 1: produced by Manny, Noah and Devin. Theme song by me Manny.
Speaker 1: Shout out to Zach for joining us, and thank you
Speaker 1: to everyone who's sent in voice notes. You all concerned me,
Speaker 1: but it means the world. Please rate this five stars
Speaker 1: on wherever you're listening to this, and be sure to
Speaker 1: follow us on our substack at No Such Thing dot show.
Speaker 1: Talk to you guys soon.