1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: I'm Anny, and this is no such thing the show 2 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: where we answer our dumb questions and yours by actually 3 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 1: doing the research. On today's episode, we're trying to figure 4 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: out what exactly it would take to change the mind 5 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: of a conspiracy theorist. There's no no such thing, such 6 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:39,520 Speaker 1: thing touch thank Okay, So I'll start this episode off 7 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 1: with a story that happened to me recently. I was 8 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: home in the Great State of Ohio a few months ago. 9 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: And you know, when you're when you go back home, 10 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: you're meeting up with some people that you haven't hung 11 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: out with for a long time, oftentimes people that you 12 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: grew up with. 13 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 2: Uh. 14 00:00:57,320 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: And so we you know, group of friends, and I 15 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: went to a bar, a couple of drinks in we're 16 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:05,400 Speaker 1: talking about politics, sure. 17 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 3: And lovely conversation to have you have a couple of drinks. 18 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: Especially in Ohio. Like the people I'm talking about our liberals, 19 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: but like they definitely think about politics differently than we do. 20 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:20,680 Speaker 4: Yes, you know, living in our coastal elite environment. 21 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: Anyway, I can't remember how the conversation got here, but 22 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 1: I made a joke about Pizzagate. Do you guys remember 23 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: what Pizzagate of course, basically, you guys were on round zero. 24 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, Me and Noah went to college in DC, and. 25 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 5: I used to work right next door to Commet Ping Pong, 26 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 5: so I knew a lot of people who worked there 27 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 5: at the time. 28 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, and then but. 29 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 5: Yeah, it was crazy because then we were working at 30 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 5: BI when Pizza Gate happened, right, and then here I 31 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 5: am editing a video about it, and there's people I 32 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 5: knew and used to work with and see every day 33 00:01:57,320 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 5: talking about this horrible thing that happened. 34 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. Quick summary. During the twenty sixteen election, WikiLeaks published 35 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 1: all these emails from the Hillary Clinton campaign. Conspiracy theorists 36 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:14,079 Speaker 1: went through the emails and claimed that they deciphered some 37 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: kind of coded references to child abuse. They decided that 38 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: one of the locations of this abuse was in the 39 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: basement of Comet Ping Pong, which was a pizza spot 40 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 1: in Washington, DC. And it got to a point where 41 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: someone actually went to Comet Ping Pong with a gun 42 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 1: trying to uncover this alleged layer where these activities were happening. 43 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: And I think he actually shot the gun at like 44 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 1: a lock that was on and locked door. Fast forward 45 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:49,359 Speaker 1: many years, I'm in Ohio at this bar with some 46 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: friends and I make a joke about like barging into 47 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: an establishment quote like the pizzagate guy, and one of 48 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: the people and the group said to me, you know, 49 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: you joke about this, but there's actually a decent amount 50 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: of evidence out there that the stories around Pizzagate have 51 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 1: some credibility. Now, obviously I'm a few drinks in and 52 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: I decide to press him on this. I say, what 53 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: are you talking about? He says that there's a video 54 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: in the dark web or something that shows world leaders 55 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 1: participating in child abuse in one of these kind of 56 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: basement dungeon areas, like the one they thought was under 57 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: commet Ping Pong Pizza. So I press them a little 58 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: further and I ask, you know, do you think that 59 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: world leaders who wanted to engage in this activity would 60 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: record it on video? And that's kind of when the 61 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: conversation went off the rails. He was viewing all these 62 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: ideas and if I pushed back even a little bit, 63 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: he would just kind of spiral into these different team engines, 64 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: and I just I was blown away by how adamant 65 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: he was about all of this, considering how little he 66 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: was actually sick. 67 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 3: Is this so grow up, you grew up with this 68 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:18,919 Speaker 3: guy kind of. 69 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: I mean it's one of those like in the friend 70 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: group situations around, Like you know, back then in high 71 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: school you're hanging out with people because you're in the 72 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 1: same homeroom. 73 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, because you don't have a deep connection. 74 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:31,599 Speaker 2: But did you get the sense from him that this 75 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 2: was his vibe in like high school? 76 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: We certainly in high school would talk about like. 77 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:39,039 Speaker 3: Loose Change or yeah sure, yeah, yeah. 78 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,280 Speaker 1: So if you don't know listeners, Loose Change was like 79 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: a documentary that came out back then about how and 80 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 1: why and the evidence that nine to eleven was an 81 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: inside job. And I think like believing that nine to 82 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: eleven was an inside job was like a like edgy 83 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 1: thing for me, as like a fourteen year old to think. Obviously, 84 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: once I grew a few more brain cells, I realized, 85 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 1: like this is probably not accurate. But yeah, I remember 86 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: actually now that you asked me, that we did talk 87 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 1: about that documentary a lot back then. 88 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 5: Oh yeah, I remember watching it on Google Video. Yes, 89 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 5: it was for YouTube, so is I just remember the interface. 90 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 5: But that's how LEAs changed, I think was maybe predominantly shared. Yeah, 91 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 5: I came out, which I think was like two thousand 92 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 5: and five six. But yeah, I remember watching him just 93 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,160 Speaker 5: being like, wow, this is it's blowing my mind right now. 94 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, no one doing anything about that. 95 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, but it made me think about how easy it 96 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:36,040 Speaker 1: is to believe this stuff because they'll they'll say something 97 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:38,720 Speaker 1: that's like, well, you know, the mathematical burning point of 98 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 1: a blah blah blah, and then you see they put 99 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:46,239 Speaker 1: a week screen we were fourteen. Yeah, yeah, I wonder 100 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 1: if that was just like kind of the starting point. 101 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 3: Yeah. 102 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: But outside of like that interaction, No, I never really 103 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 1: took him to me. He's like a like sports fan. 104 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 6: Yeah. 105 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, he's not saying things on a daily basis. 106 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: It's not what his social media. Yeah, and I and 107 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: I think there's there's maybe something to the fact that, 108 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:10,039 Speaker 1: like we were a few drinks in, Like I don't 109 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 1: know that you would just be bringing that. 110 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:13,119 Speaker 7: Up at work or whatever. 111 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. 112 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 1: A few sentences into this interaction, I was just like, WHOA, 113 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: how do you get to this point where you believe 114 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: something so wholeheartedly but you fold at even the smallest 115 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 1: amount of pushback. Yeah, because obviously the evidence is not 116 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:33,720 Speaker 1: an existent, but conspiracy theories like Pizzagate and nine to 117 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: eleven was an inside job. Like, those are very serious 118 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 1: topics and theories that have probably led to real life 119 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: harm for people. But if you're someone who believes that, 120 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: like the government is hiding aliens or whatever, I'm actually 121 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 1: so okay with that. I would say most conspiracy theories 122 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:53,919 Speaker 1: are kind of dumb and silly and just fun to 123 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: talk about. I was actually gonna ask you guys, like, 124 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 1: what are some conspiracy theories that you either used to 125 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: believe or you think are more feasible than other ones. 126 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 5: Have you guys heard about you know, Jim Morrison from 127 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 5: The Doors, the rock band. 128 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 3: No, I'm sorry, there's some white ship. 129 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: Kim. We're talking to two black guys. 130 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 4: From The Doors. 131 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 5: Resident White of the podcast. Falcimore played him in a 132 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 5: biopic in the nineties. 133 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 3: But oh okay, I do actually notice they think he's 134 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:28,119 Speaker 3: still alive. 135 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 5: Yeah, so he he was like part of the twenty 136 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 5: seventh Club, which are like a bunch of rock stars 137 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 5: who passed away at twenty seven. Anyway, there's a theory 138 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 5: that he's still alive and is just living a quiet life. 139 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 5: Is like some guy named Frank in like Syracuse, New York. 140 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 3: Wow, Wow, did you watch the documentary. 141 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 4: I think there's a I haven't watched it. 142 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 5: There's a documentary, and then there's a new story of conspiracy. 143 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, that team I think earlier this year. 144 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: I would love to watch them, because one thing I 145 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: will do is fucking watch a lot of Like I 146 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: don't ever believe in any of them. But there's a 147 00:07:56,240 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: YouTube channel called the I think it's called the Why Files, 148 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:04,119 Speaker 1: and it's just this guy who goes really deep into 149 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: random theories and then at the end he tells you 150 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: why they're bullshit. 151 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 3: Interesting? 152 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: What is another one? When I was in high school, 153 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 1: actually I was in the International Baccalaureate program, so I 154 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 1: kind of like AP but a little bit more vibes 155 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: based versus versus objective kind of fact knowing. But one 156 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: of my final papers actually was about the conspiracy that 157 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: there were two shooters during the JFK assassination. And they 158 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:38,439 Speaker 1: talk about this in the movie too, that like if 159 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 1: there were only one shooter, the trajectory of the bullet 160 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 1: that hit him would have had to curve or something. Yeah, 161 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 1: that's to say nothing about like who killed him and why, 162 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: but like there's like decent evidence that there had to 163 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: have been two people that's a fun one. 164 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:58,680 Speaker 3: I'm pretty anti conspiracy theory as a person. I watched 165 00:08:58,760 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 3: this change. 166 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 2: And for you know, forty eight hours, thought that George 167 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 2: Bush did nine to eleven and then, like you said, 168 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 2: you like think about it for five more seconds and 169 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 2: you're like, actually, no, that's not what happened. 170 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, And like some of it, some of the deep, 171 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:17,319 Speaker 1: like the deeper conspiracy theories have like the nugget of. 172 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:19,439 Speaker 4: Yeah, well yeah, yeah, that's that's the thing. 173 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 5: Because even to go back to the nine to eleven stuff, Yeah, okay, 174 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 5: was George Bush in their planning nine to eleven? 175 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 8: No? 176 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 4: Is there something too? 177 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 6: You know? 178 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 5: Okay, they knew something was gonna happen and did less 179 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 5: than they maybe would have to prevent it. 180 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, because of other factors. 181 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 5: That's more of the believable side of the conspiracy theory, 182 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 5: Like some of the some of these theories are more 183 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 5: fun than the other ones were. Like I think just 184 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 5: the political environments changed so much, where this stuff is 185 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 5: so much more prevalent at high levels, where like I 186 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 5: used to think Alex Jones is really funny. Yeah, and 187 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 5: like you'd see clips of info Wars and he's talking 188 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:55,680 Speaker 5: about the frogs being gay because the floor eyde or 189 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 5: this or that, and then it's like, well, it's way 190 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 5: less funny when he's talking about Sandy Hook and these 191 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 5: kids not ever existing or whatever. 192 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 4: It's like, it's just not funny anymore. 193 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: It's not funny because you have to think, You think about, 194 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 1: like what would it take for someone to believe something 195 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: like that. 196 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:15,679 Speaker 5: And then there's actual harm done, you know, versus like, yeah, 197 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,200 Speaker 5: if you think there is flat, yeah, no skin off 198 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 5: my back and. 199 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:20,839 Speaker 1: You're an idiot. But it doesn't affect my life. 200 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 4: That's crazy. But it's like, but truly doesn't matter. 201 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 2: But to me now it's like it used to be 202 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 2: funny when Bob was the one die exactly believe that, 203 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 2: But now the issue is I feel like it's representative 204 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 2: of so much other stuff that's happening where it's like, oh, 205 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 2: it's not funny anymore, as so many people think the 206 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 2: world is flat, because it's like, yeah, it's representative of 207 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 2: likely it don't matter. 208 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 3: Everyone thinks they're the smartest person in a room. 209 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: I read a good book about the I think they 210 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: just did. 211 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:53,199 Speaker 5: They did a Netflix documentary of it about the Manson murders, 212 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 5: and it the theory of this book is that Manton 213 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 5: was like a informant for the government, and then also 214 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 5: he was basically let loose, like they knew he was 215 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 5: doing all these crimes and stuff, but they say they 216 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 5: let him do it to kind of poison the hippie movement. 217 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:10,839 Speaker 5: I think a lot of times these things aren't as 218 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 5: complicated as we want them to be. Yeah, and there's 219 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 5: it's more like a negligence than an active conspiracy. 220 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:19,839 Speaker 9: Yeah. 221 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: I think you hit the nail on the heather because 222 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 1: it's like, there are such things as conspiracies. The things 223 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: that are conspiracy theories are like the more dumb things. 224 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 1: But obviously governments and organizations have conspired to do nefarious 225 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 1: things in secret, and they fuel conspiracy theories. It's just 226 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 1: that very few of these theories ever turn out to 227 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: be true. 228 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 3: Do you give us an example. 229 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, So the Tuskegee Experiments, for example, was of like 230 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: forty plus year long study with the goal of tracking 231 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: the full progression of in a black community. They recruited 232 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: six hundred people into this study in exchange for free healthcare. Today, 233 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: the experiments are viewed as at best unethical, but at 234 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 1: worst straight up evil because these medical professionals were essentially 235 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 1: allowing people to die of syphilis, allowing the syphilis to 236 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: spread throughout the community, simply so that they can monitor 237 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 1: and document what exactly was going on. The study was 238 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: over forty years long, but fifteen years into the study, 239 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 1: penicillin became known as the main treatment for syphilis. And 240 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 1: so these medical professionals were letting people suffer despite their 241 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 1: being treatment for syphilis. So if you're in that community 242 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 1: and you're looking around and everyone's getting syphilis, and you 243 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: know that some studies being done, you might be like, 244 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 1: what the hell is going on? And it wasn't until 245 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two when a medical professional found out about 246 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 1: this study and leaked it to the Associated Press and 247 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 1: then boom, it's not a conspiracy theory anymore. And finally, 248 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 1: some twenty years after that, President Bill Clinton even apologized 249 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:15,680 Speaker 1: for the Tuskegee experiments because they were conducted by federal 250 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: medical professionals. All Right, we did a call out online 251 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 1: to see if we could get some people to send 252 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: some conspiracy theories that they believe in and why, and 253 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 1: so before we continue our conversation, I just want to 254 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:46,320 Speaker 1: play some of those for the listeners. 255 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 4: I guys, this is rich. 256 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 6: Nst heads know me as rich from episode one. I 257 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 6: think that the US military or US intelligence, so maybe 258 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 6: either like the Air Force or the CIA, is actually 259 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 6: behind or at least fueling the whole idea that Area 260 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:09,719 Speaker 6: fifty one was where aliens were like dissected and UFOs 261 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 6: tested and all of that, because we do know that 262 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 6: that's where the Utwo spyplane was tested. And so I 263 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 6: think that by getting this idea of aliens out there 264 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 6: during the Cold War, it could have saved maybe some 265 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 6: difficulties and tensions that were happening with the Soviet Union 266 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:31,239 Speaker 6: when we were just building stuff. 267 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 4: To spy on them. 268 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 10: I think that Benjamin Franklin was a grifter with a 269 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 10: great pr team. I live in Philadelphia, so his image 270 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 10: is everywhere. To a degree I find suspicious. He's credited 271 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 10: with inventing basically everything from electricity to bifocals to modern 272 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 10: day fire insurance. And I don't believe that one little 273 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 10: guy achieved all of this alone. He was never actually president, 274 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 10: but was somehow always there as an advisor and Elon 275 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 10: Musk kind of fraudster, the ideas guy with a big checkbook. 276 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 10: I just feel like it's extremely possible. All that everyone 277 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 10: hated him and he was a bad hang, but his 278 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 10: reputation has been scrubbed clean. 279 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 11: My theory is that Michael Jackson was a costrato. I 280 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 11: think there's a lot of reasons for that. Obviously, you know, 281 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 11: his voice never changed. He was making a lot of 282 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 11: money as a kid with a voice that hadn't changed yet. 283 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 11: I feel like I'm going crazy because it seems very obvious. 284 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 12: Hey, guys, be fine of your show here. I have 285 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 12: a conspiracy theory. The cosmetics industry is totally evil. That 286 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 12: stuff is essentially junk, synthetic junk. They selled you that, 287 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 12: and then they selled you the remedy to fix that 288 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 12: damage they have caused. The cosmetics industry is selling you 289 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 12: at the same time the poison and the cure. 290 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 13: I think that Tesla cyber trucks are a government contracting play. 291 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 13: So Tesla does not care about these cars meeting some 292 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 13: big consumer market. They don't need to sell well, they 293 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 13: don't care about bringing down the price. Doesn't matter to that. 294 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 13: Tesla is happy to have these kind of high rollers 295 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 13: kind of test out their weird car, and then in 296 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 13: a few years their plan is going to be to 297 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 13: secure some government contract and make the cyber truck the 298 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 13: official state car of the US. 299 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 8: That's my conspiracy theory. 300 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 13: Like I said, maybe not that spicy, but I'm very 301 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 13: attached to it. 302 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: So there's actually a pretty funny study that came out 303 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 1: of the University of Oxford. It took a look at 304 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: the viability of some of the more popular conspiracy theories, 305 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: like the moon landing hoax for example. Basically, they wanted 306 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 1: to see how many people would have to be involved 307 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: in such a conspiracy and also how long it would 308 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 1: take for that conspiracy theory to fall apart, because someone 309 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: inevitably would have to let it slip. Essentially, in the study, 310 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: this is called the failure time, the amount of time 311 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: it would take for the conspiracy theory to kind of 312 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 1: fall apart. The study calculated the failure time by essentially 313 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: studying other known famous scandals and seeing how long it 314 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,679 Speaker 1: took those to kind of fall apart. All right, So 315 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: for the moon landing hoax, all right, we're talking about 316 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:46,919 Speaker 1: peak NASA employment. How many people were working at NASA 317 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:52,680 Speaker 1: at the time, four hundred and eleven thousand employees. According 318 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 1: to the study, it would take approximately three and a 319 00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 1: half years before the employees like, you know, let it slip. 320 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 4: That's pretty impressive. Eleven and three. I would think not 321 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 4: all being paid. 322 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 2: Well yeah, I mean I think about a couple of 323 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:13,159 Speaker 2: months if that oh yeah, that being said not to 324 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 2: be that guy, but not everyone at NASA needed to 325 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 2: know that it was fake. 326 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 4: Yeah. 327 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point. But I would say that 328 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 1: maybe if someone at NASA who wasn't involved with the 329 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: moon landing, they're probably still smart enough to know how 330 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 1: many people it would take to put someone on the moon. Yes, 331 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,640 Speaker 1: and so if they knew the team size or whatever, yeah, 332 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:35,439 Speaker 1: you might be able to be like, well that's fishy 333 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:36,920 Speaker 1: if it's only taking five people. 334 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, only on this project. 335 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:40,120 Speaker 4: Yeah. 336 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: Another conspiracy theory that this study looked at was the 337 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 1: suppression of the cancer cure. So this idea that these 338 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: institutions could find a cure for cancer or already have 339 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 1: a cure for cancer, but won't release it because they 340 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 1: can make more money by treating cancer, that would take 341 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: three point one seven years to fall apart, according to 342 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: the study. 343 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:04,439 Speaker 2: Well that one, it's like, no, you just say we 344 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:06,439 Speaker 2: have the cares, it's gonna cost you a lot of 345 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:07,119 Speaker 2: money to get it. 346 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,919 Speaker 1: Well, have you guys seen Common Side Effects on HBO? 347 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 8: No, I need to. 348 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll recommend this to our listeners. Basically, it's this 349 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: animated show. It's by some of the people who did 350 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:23,360 Speaker 1: King of the Hill, and it's about big pharma suppressing 351 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:26,400 Speaker 1: a magic mushroom that's like a cure all for all 352 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 1: kinds of diseases. It's really funny and it's also really smart. 353 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: It makes you think a lot about how the healthcare 354 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 1: system is set up in this country. And honestly, it's 355 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: hilarious to hear the voice of Hank Hill being like 356 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 1: a pharma executive. 357 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 9: They brought me in, a CEO with one job settled 358 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 9: a huge fucking lawsuit that's coming at us because of 359 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 9: the depression and the suicidal thoughts that were a side 360 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:54,680 Speaker 9: effect allegedly of spumaiva, which you know, no one talks 361 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 9: about how much arthritis we alleviated. 362 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: But fine, So the he's in I wanted to discuss 363 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 1: this today is because I recently listened to another podcast 364 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: called Alternate Realities. It's by a friend of mine named 365 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: Zach Mack. He's a reporter, a journalist and a podcaster. 366 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 1: And the whole show is about trying to convince his 367 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 1: father to stop believing in kind of QAnon conspiracy theories. 368 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:30,159 Speaker 1: Since he has done a three episode piece on this, 369 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 1: I felt like he'd be a good person to get 370 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: in here and talk about you know what exactly would 371 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 1: it take to convince someone that their crazy conspiracy theory 372 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,119 Speaker 1: is not true? So that's after the break. 373 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 14: It's called de Niana's freedom of speech. No, it's called 374 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:55,640 Speaker 14: num of speech. It's misinformation. Now, who gets the right 375 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 14: to label it misinformation? When all these things happen, then 376 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 14: you will realize that I'm not as big a crackpot 377 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,159 Speaker 14: as you think I am, and that these are not 378 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:10,479 Speaker 14: conspiracy theories. These are reality. You're going to go, wow, 379 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 14: that's amazing. How did he know that? 380 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 1: That was a clip from Alternate Realities, a three episode 381 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: story that you can find on NPR's embedded series. We're 382 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 1: here with the creator of that show, Zach Mack. He's 383 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: a producer, he's a journalist, and he's a homie. He's 384 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:30,360 Speaker 1: a friend of the pod. Thanks for being. 385 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:31,879 Speaker 8: Here, Yeah, yeah, thanks for having me. 386 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 1: I listened to the show. It's incredible. It made me 387 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,919 Speaker 1: tear up. It made me, you know, roller coaster of emotions. 388 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: But for people who haven't listened to it, could you 389 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,959 Speaker 1: give us like a little premise, you know, walk us 390 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,400 Speaker 1: through what happens. 391 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 15: Yeah, my father has been falling down the conspiracy rabbit 392 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 15: hole over the couple of years, last few years, and 393 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 15: a little over a year ago I had confronted him 394 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 15: about it, and of course he didn't want to hear me. 395 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 15: We had just been having these same like circular arguments. 396 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 15: And what he did next surprise me, which is he 397 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 15: challenged me to a ten thousand dollars bet that ten 398 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:14,879 Speaker 15: of his predictions, they're very like politically apocalyptic predictions that 399 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:16,879 Speaker 15: he all believed was going to come true by the 400 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 15: end of the year. So we made this bet early 401 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 15: twenty twenty four, and he said, by the end of 402 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,399 Speaker 15: the year, these ten things will happen. I bet you 403 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:28,439 Speaker 15: ten thousand dollars that they will. And when they all happen, 404 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 15: you'll see that I know what I'm talking about, and 405 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 15: you have no idea what you're talking about. And I 406 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 15: took a look at the bet, like his proposal, and 407 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 15: I was like, oh, you're on none of these things. 408 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 15: I didn't believe any of these things were going to happen. 409 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 15: The moment he proposed the bet, I sort of immediately 410 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 15: knew that this would be a good podcast story because 411 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 15: I'm a podcast producer and I'm sort of trained to 412 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,639 Speaker 15: look for like the elements that would make a good series, 413 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 15: And so I asked if I could interview him throughout 414 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 15: the year and we could check in, and he agreed 415 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,399 Speaker 15: to it, and so that's what the show is, is like, 416 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 15: you're hearing us make this bet, but you're also hearing 417 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 15: how his beliefs are impacting our family, which is has 418 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 15: been very difficult, you know, for my mother, for my sister, 419 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 15: for myself, And that's why the series is a little 420 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 15: bit heavy. But he was such a willing participant, and 421 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,400 Speaker 15: we joke around a lot, So the series also feels 422 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 15: kind of light because we're joking around, we're betting, like guys, 423 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:25,360 Speaker 15: do you know I feel like whenever guys can't settle argument, 424 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 15: it either comes down to betting or boxing. 425 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 8: And you know, so it was, yeah, could you. 426 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 4: Just lost like a couple of the his what you 427 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:45,880 Speaker 4: were betting on it? Just like maybe three or four. 428 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:49,360 Speaker 15: Yeah, So some of his predictions were like the US 429 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,159 Speaker 15: would come under martial law, that Donald Trump would be 430 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:57,160 Speaker 15: reinstated without an election, that all of these top Democrats 431 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 15: like Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi, and Joe Biden would be 432 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 15: rounded up and convicted of treason. It was all very 433 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 15: like politically apocalyptic, you know. He thought that a electromagnetic 434 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 15: pulse device would like wipe out all digital communication across 435 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:11,639 Speaker 15: the US. 436 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: And is this this is officially like q and on 437 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,919 Speaker 1: stuff or is a lot of it outside of Okay. 438 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,199 Speaker 15: Yeah, a lot of it is qan on stuff. A 439 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 15: lot of it is just like the right wing greatest 440 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 15: hits fantasy. I should say. My father is like a 441 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 15: Christian conservative. Yeah, so it's it's like kind of playing 442 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:28,120 Speaker 15: in that sphere. 443 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 7: That sphere. 444 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,399 Speaker 15: But some of it is just like mainstream now, you know, 445 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 15: it's all very mainstream at this point, but yeah, it's 446 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,359 Speaker 15: a lot of the greatest hits. None of the things 447 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 15: is like are like, we're like things that you hadn't 448 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:40,679 Speaker 15: heard before. 449 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, I was just telling them a story about 450 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,640 Speaker 1: like an old high school friend of mine who has 451 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 1: all these beliefs too, about like the Pizzagate and stuff. 452 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:54,719 Speaker 1: But my kind of interactions with him are very brief. 453 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,360 Speaker 1: It's like, all right, yeah, you you're kind of crazy, 454 00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 1: but uh, I'm going home now. But I can't imagine 455 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,360 Speaker 1: what it would feel like for someone to have these 456 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 1: beliefs and it's someone you like grew up with in 457 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,880 Speaker 1: your immediate family, like someone you know and love. I'm 458 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 1: kind of curious how challenging actually was it to produce this? 459 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 1: You already knew what you wanted to do from a 460 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 1: blueprint standpoint, but like, how hard was it to execute? 461 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 6: It was? 462 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 7: Really? 463 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:20,679 Speaker 4: It was. 464 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:22,199 Speaker 15: It was like the hardest thing I've ever had to 465 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 15: do emotionally, Like it was. It was just very challenging 466 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,159 Speaker 15: to like write and piece together this series and even 467 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 15: just having to like cut tape of hearing my sister 468 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,440 Speaker 15: crying over and over and figuring out how to position 469 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:36,400 Speaker 15: that into an episode. 470 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 13: It was. 471 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 15: It was very strange for me as a producer. Normally 472 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 15: I'm working on things that have to do with like 473 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 15: pop culture or tech. I'm never reporting on my own 474 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 15: family and my own emotional state. So yeah, it was 475 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,680 Speaker 15: it was quite challenging to make. But it was also 476 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 15: really beautiful because before we started the series, my father 477 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:55,680 Speaker 15: and I were just having circular arguments. 478 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:56,400 Speaker 4: That were going nowhere. 479 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 15: Once we agreed to make a show and I had 480 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,360 Speaker 15: to interview him, the dynamic of our conversations changed completely 481 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 15: and we were able to have like really deep and 482 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,640 Speaker 15: meaningful conversations and just talk without arguing, and I could 483 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:11,639 Speaker 15: just listen to him and try to understand him a 484 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 15: little bit better and how he got here and we 485 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 15: got closer. 486 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 7: We were not close. 487 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,919 Speaker 15: Before the series, and we got closer than we ever have, 488 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:21,879 Speaker 15: and we've sort of been able to talk about things 489 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:23,159 Speaker 15: that we never could before. 490 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 14: This is incredibly refreshing to be able to have these 491 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:28,119 Speaker 14: kind of conversations with you. 492 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 7: Do you feel like I know you now better? 493 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:32,680 Speaker 11: Oh? 494 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:34,159 Speaker 1: Absolutely? Was? 495 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:36,879 Speaker 15: That was like the real benefit, like the positive that 496 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 15: came out of it, but it was super challenging to 497 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:41,679 Speaker 15: make Like emotionally. 498 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, did you feel like the show gave you like 499 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,159 Speaker 2: a framework to talk to your dad? Like what was 500 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:49,400 Speaker 2: the difference in the conversations, Like why did you feel 501 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,680 Speaker 2: like before you were talking in circles and then during 502 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 2: the show you felt like the conversations were more productive? 503 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 3: What was that difference? 504 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:55,640 Speaker 9: Yeah? 505 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 15: I think because when we were talking in circles, I 506 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:02,239 Speaker 15: was just being like in emotional son, I was just 507 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 15: being like in an upset family member, Yeah, and trying 508 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 15: to win an argument, totally totally trying to win the 509 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,199 Speaker 15: argument and prove how stupid he is. 510 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:13,879 Speaker 7: You know, it's just getting We were just getting like 511 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 7: really routed up. 512 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 15: Yeah, And then once we started the show, I had 513 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:21,679 Speaker 15: to approach that differently. Right, you can't just like scream 514 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:23,440 Speaker 15: at somebody on the mic. I guess some people can't, 515 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,919 Speaker 15: but like, that's just not how I conduct interviews. I 516 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 15: wanted to really understand like how he got here, and 517 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 15: I just tried to be as patient and as empathetic 518 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,200 Speaker 15: as I could and really approach you with a lot 519 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 15: more curiosity and just asking questions and trying to listen more, 520 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 15: and talking to experts and doing research and finding out 521 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,880 Speaker 15: more and more about this world and really just yeah, 522 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,159 Speaker 15: taking a genuine interest. I think that that was like 523 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:47,920 Speaker 15: the real difference. 524 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,119 Speaker 1: I want to talk about some of the research and 525 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 1: experts that you interacted with YEA to produce the show, 526 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:56,879 Speaker 1: But first we're doing this episode because we want to 527 00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,439 Speaker 1: find out what exactly it would take to change someone's mind. 528 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 1: You felt like the perfect person to talk about this 529 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 1: because you set out to do that in your show 530 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: and I'm not gonna spoil everything. I think everyone should 531 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 1: go listen to it. But it's probably no surprise that 532 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: like the ten things that your father laid out didn't tappen. 533 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 7: Oh yeah, he was zero for ten. 534 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, far far far yeah. And so I'm curious, like, 535 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 1: after this experience, what do you personally think it would take. 536 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 1: I mean, is the answer simply just like a more 537 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 1: of an open mind from the conspiracy theorist. 538 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,639 Speaker 7: I think it depends on who you're talking to and 539 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 7: what they believe the more. 540 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 15: When I started this whole process, I sort of just thought, oh, 541 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 15: my dad just has the wrong facts. Let me just 542 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 15: go get them the right facts and replace them, and 543 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 15: he'll be on his way and we'll be set. And 544 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 15: that's just not how it works. That doesn't work at all. 545 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 15: You really have to be almost like investigative and understand 546 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 15: what are these beliefs doing for them? You know, what 547 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 15: are they doing for them? What are the things in 548 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 15: their background maybe that like transpired that kind of got 549 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 15: them to this place. So much of it comes from 550 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 15: a distrust of institutions. My grandfather was a chiropractor, right, 551 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 15: and very embittered towards the medical society and was sort 552 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 15: of like run out of business. So my father grew 553 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 15: up in an anti VAXX household with a dad who 554 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 15: you know, hated the medical institution and hated big government. 555 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 15: So it's no surprise that he's also distrusting of these 556 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 15: large institutions and things like that. So I think a 557 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 15: lot of people will have things like that in their background, 558 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 15: and you can follow them down that pathway and start 559 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 15: to understand how they got here, But yeah, you really 560 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 15: have to get under the hood and understand like what 561 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 15: is it, like, what are these beliefs doing for them? 562 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: And yeah, is the idea that like, for example, we 563 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: not your dad, but like a conspiracy theorists, if they 564 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 1: are getting maybe a sense of community from being on 565 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 1: like all the forums or whatever, is the idea that 566 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: maybe if they found a sense of community in you know, 567 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 1: some in some other facet of their lives, that they 568 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: might not be so inclined to believe the theory the 569 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 1: conspiracy theories totally. 570 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 15: One of the experts I was talking to who's Who's 571 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 15: a former evangelical pastor, and he was talking about how 572 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 15: his parents were into a lot of this stuff. A 573 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 15: lot of the QAnon stuff, and they were talking about 574 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 15: it all the time and how Obama was the Antichrist 575 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 15: and all this stuff. 576 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 7: And then he said they moved to. 577 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 15: A retirement home in Florida and like had this really 578 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 15: great community and they're golfing and they're drinking, they're hanging 579 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 15: out with friends, and he just said, they. 580 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:40,959 Speaker 7: Just never talk about that stuff anymore. 581 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 15: Doesn't mean they don't believe it, yeah, but they're just 582 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 15: they don't need it. It's it's not of interest. And 583 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 15: so I think a lot of times when you see 584 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 15: like conspiracies, they are doing something like some of the 585 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 15: things that they do for people, Like the main reasons 586 00:30:55,960 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 15: are access to a community or it's it's. 587 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 7: Also like access to esoteric knowledge. 588 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 15: It's like I know something you don't know, so it 589 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 15: kind of elevates you in status, like I'm up on this. 590 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 15: And you see that behavior all the time, Like it's 591 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 15: not just conspiracy theories like you see it with hype beasts. Right, 592 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 15: I got these special sneakers, you can't get these rights. 593 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 15: It's fulfilling the same need, just in a different different space. 594 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 15: So there's all these different ways. I think a lot 595 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 15: of times people are just afraid and want to be 596 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 15: told that everything's going to be okay, or they want 597 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 15: to understand the way the world works, and sometimes even 598 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 15: telling them a really scary vision, but like this is 599 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 15: what's going on. It feels definitive. And when things are definitive, 600 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 15: they're a little more calming because you know, you know 601 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 15: the answer instead of just I don't know how this happened. 602 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 7: I don't know how COVID got out. 603 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 1: You know that is really interesting because in the interactions 604 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: I've had with my kind of like the friend that 605 00:31:57,320 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 1: I grew up with, there always does seem to be 606 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 1: like an air of like condescension, a little bit of like, oh, 607 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 1: actually you would feel like I felt if you did. 608 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 4: More reading, Yeah, right, if you were on my level. 609 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 6: Yeah. 610 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 7: Yeah, it's like the J cole fan Yeah, yeah, exactly, 611 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 7: But you. 612 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 1: Have to be on a specific level to enjoy this music. 613 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 7: This music is good if you're really smart. 614 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 15: Yeah, it's exactly like the J cole fans, Like you 615 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 15: just see it in all these different spaces, and some 616 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 15: people choose to get there through conspiracies, but other times 617 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 15: it's sneakerheads or ja. 618 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 9: Yeah. 619 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:31,560 Speaker 5: When you were saying that, I was thinking of, like 620 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 5: I feel like when you read interviews, it's like someone 621 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 5: who used to be in like the KKK or something, 622 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 5: and it's like a lot of times it's like it 623 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 5: doesn't seem like they actually even care about race. It's 624 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 5: like they had some upbringing or whatever. And then it's 625 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 5: like they're lonely. And then there's some older guy who's 626 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 5: involved in this stuff and they take them under their 627 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 5: wing and then it's just like boom, seems like a 628 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 5: fun thing to do. 629 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 4: I guess yeah, it's like it's like more like you're 630 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 4: just bored and like need friends. 631 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 15: One of the things I've seen is that with with QAnon, 632 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 15: that and a lot of these conspiracies, they cast you 633 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 15: as an active participant in the conspiracies. It's like, hey, 634 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 15: you're not just some dude sitting on the couch. You 635 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 15: are a soldier in a secret war that's being fought 636 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 15: behind the scenes. 637 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 7: Like you are important. 638 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 15: So it gives you a sense of importance or it 639 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 15: casts like a lot of times it's like these people 640 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 15: are lonely or you know, maybe they don't feel of use, 641 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 15: and suddenly they're cast as like a protector for their 642 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 15: own family. 643 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 7: Right, It's like, I know this secret knowledge. 644 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 15: I have access to this secret knowledge, and now I 645 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 15: can inform you and thus be of use again. And 646 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 15: that's like that, that's a really compelling. 647 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, just hearing about it. 648 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:43,479 Speaker 4: Yes, where do we sign up? 649 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 1: One question I have is like, there's there are probably 650 00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: a lot of people in your position, like people who's 651 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 1: paying parents are kind of deep into this, or maybe 652 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 1: they have a sibling. You know, what would be your 653 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,240 Speaker 1: kind of advice for someone who's in this scenario? 654 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,800 Speaker 15: Yeah, I mean, since I've put the project out, I've 655 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 15: heard from literal hundreds of strangers who are like, I'm 656 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 15: going through this exact same thing, and I realized how 657 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 15: ununique my story was, that this is just millions of 658 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 15: households across across the country. My advice would just be 659 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 15: try to be curious about what's going on. You know, 660 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 15: it's to the extent that you can be empathetic, be curious, 661 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:39,759 Speaker 15: be patient, do your research. And also, I think it 662 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:41,839 Speaker 15: just has to come with a level of acceptance that 663 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:44,239 Speaker 15: you will most likely not be able to change this 664 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:44,879 Speaker 15: person's mind. 665 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 7: And that's the really. 666 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 15: Tough pill to swallow, because it's really hard to change 667 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 15: someone's mind, especially most deep beliefs don't feel like choices. 668 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:58,320 Speaker 15: You know, you think about the things that you believe deeply, 669 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 15: you would probably feel like you don't have a choice 670 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 15: in that matter. I couldn't just tell you, like, Manny, 671 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 15: believe this differently, Yeah right now, you it's it takes 672 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 15: a lot to kind of unwind that. So you sort 673 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,840 Speaker 15: of just have to understand, like what is your threshold 674 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:18,240 Speaker 15: of tolerance for this person being in your life, and 675 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:20,719 Speaker 15: you know, being as patient and empathetic as you can 676 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:21,760 Speaker 15: asking questions. 677 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 1: That's a really good point. I mean, I'm trying to 678 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 1: think of my deeply held beliefs. Like, for example, if 679 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 1: if one of you guys are like, well, here's a 680 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:33,319 Speaker 1: couple of reasons why universal health care actually might not work, 681 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 1: I was I be like, actually, I hear you, but 682 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,239 Speaker 1: I still think we should do it. Yeah, they're like 683 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:43,920 Speaker 1: foundational belief and we've. 684 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 4: Been trying to get him to back off this. 685 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 7: Well, think you and I have a similar deep belief. 686 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,920 Speaker 15: You couldn't get us off that we believe like Lebron 687 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 15: James is the greatest basketball right, Like what would it take? 688 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 1: It would have to be like one hundred or two 689 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 1: hundred years from now, or someone has built like someone 690 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 1: has built like a system where we can actually test 691 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: it out where you go back in time put Lebron James. Yeah, 692 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: that's what that's what it would take for I would 693 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:15,479 Speaker 1: have to watch it. I would have to watch peak 694 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:17,760 Speaker 1: Michael Jordan beat the peak Lebron James. 695 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 15: But then you're talking about one on one, which is 696 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 15: a whole different game. And does Michael Jordan have access 697 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,680 Speaker 15: to the diet plan that Lebron is on and all, 698 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 15: like you know nutrition. 699 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 1: Yea one hundred Michael Jordan's us. 700 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 15: Things you believe deeply don't feel like choices, and so 701 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,879 Speaker 15: it's it's really hard to change someone's mind. 702 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:42,920 Speaker 2: So it's the goal then to just like make it manageable. 703 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 2: Like you're talking about those people who move to Florida, right, 704 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:49,320 Speaker 2: It's like they may still believe it, Like the parents 705 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,319 Speaker 2: maybe still believe it, but let's not talk about it 706 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,000 Speaker 2: at dinner, you know, like you guys, that's your thing. 707 00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 5: Well, yeah, and even like in your family, obviously, the 708 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,000 Speaker 5: dynamics between you and your dad is different than your 709 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 5: sister and your dad, and your mother and your dad, 710 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:05,839 Speaker 5: and you know, it seems like you and your dad 711 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,920 Speaker 5: are closer than you were before. Your relationship seems in 712 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:14,080 Speaker 5: some ways maybe better but different clearly than his relationship 713 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:15,360 Speaker 5: with the other people in your family. 714 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 4: I mean, how does that feel? 715 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 15: So, I mean, just to be clear, when I got 716 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,480 Speaker 15: into this, it was to change my father's mind. Like, 717 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,160 Speaker 15: I didn't get into this to be more patient with him. 718 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:28,960 Speaker 15: I got into it to win a bet and to 719 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 15: try to change his mind, to pull him out of 720 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,000 Speaker 15: this rabbit hole. I think as the year went on 721 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:39,560 Speaker 15: there there was a new level of understanding of how 722 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:43,920 Speaker 15: he got here and why he's here, and also a 723 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 15: deeper understanding of how difficult it is to pull someone out, 724 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,480 Speaker 15: and a little bit of a just an acceptance of 725 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 15: what is. But the reality is, like millions of people 726 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 15: are really falling down these rabbit holes throughout the country, 727 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 15: and I don't think we should just all be patient 728 00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:04,719 Speaker 15: about it. 729 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 7: Like, I think this is. 730 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,120 Speaker 15: A real problem that we have to work as hard 731 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:13,239 Speaker 15: as we can to fix. And it's not just hey, 732 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,239 Speaker 15: be nicer and more empathetic at the dinner table, right 733 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 15: like that that helps me with my father in our 734 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,560 Speaker 15: one on one relationship. That does not help the country 735 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 15: and the state that we're in. 736 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,960 Speaker 1: So some of these people with these beliefs are starting 737 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 1: to become elected, so. 738 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 4: A lot more urgent. Yeah, I think, well. 739 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,919 Speaker 1: Great man, thanks for thanks for coming to hang out 740 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:41,360 Speaker 1: with us. Be sure to go listen to Alternate Realities. 741 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:42,239 Speaker 1: Where can people find that? 742 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,799 Speaker 15: Yeah, Alternate Reality is on NPR embedded. Uh, that's that's where. 743 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 15: That's where to hear it. 744 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:58,600 Speaker 1: Great, all right, we're back. What did you guys think, Well, 745 00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:00,239 Speaker 1: you know, obviously I listen to the series. 746 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, but it is still a little depressing to hear 747 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,879 Speaker 2: that you can do all this research, all this work 748 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:09,360 Speaker 2: and it's still basically impossible. 749 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 4: Yeah. 750 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,960 Speaker 1: I think I was really I was most moved and 751 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:18,759 Speaker 1: convinced by when he was talking about, you know, replacing 752 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:22,120 Speaker 1: someone's need for community. For example, if someone is in 753 00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 1: these like online communities and they basically are there because 754 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,879 Speaker 1: they need a sense of community, you might be able 755 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,440 Speaker 1: to replace that community with something a little more healthy, 756 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,680 Speaker 1: and then they might not be as susceptible to the 757 00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 1: conspiracy theories. Now, now, the people he was talking about 758 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:43,040 Speaker 1: that move to Florida don't necessarily talk about conspiracy theories anymore. 759 00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:44,880 Speaker 1: That doesn't mean they don't believe him, but it's not 760 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,319 Speaker 1: kind of like ruling their lives in the way that 761 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:49,200 Speaker 1: it was. I mean, I just think about it's like, 762 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:53,960 Speaker 1: forget conspiracy theories. It's like, you know, people double bling 763 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 1: down on things. 764 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:56,640 Speaker 5: It's like, well, even if you're wrong about something small, 765 00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:58,839 Speaker 5: like how many times have you been in a dumb 766 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,680 Speaker 5: argument and you just don't want to say you're wrong 767 00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:03,560 Speaker 5: because you're embarrassed, you know, and it's. 768 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:04,919 Speaker 4: Like show it be some minor things. 769 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,319 Speaker 5: Yeah, It's like it could be some minor thing like oh, yeah, 770 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:09,680 Speaker 5: you forgot to take the chicken out of the fridge 771 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,160 Speaker 5: or you know what I mean, it's like something stupid 772 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:13,080 Speaker 5: like that, and just like, oh. 773 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:14,080 Speaker 4: No I didn't and it's like. 774 00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,520 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's like just a dumb thing like that, and 775 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,000 Speaker 5: like okay, so this is much more extreme, but like 776 00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:23,440 Speaker 5: that makes it even harder to then back down from 777 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:24,960 Speaker 5: because it's like, well, now I've been talking about this 778 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:28,080 Speaker 5: for years, yeah, you know, alienating my family or whatever. 779 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:30,600 Speaker 5: It's like, yeah, I'm not going to just be like 780 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,280 Speaker 5: you know what, I read this article. 781 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 4: Mm hmm, you're right. 782 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,200 Speaker 1: It is so hard. I think it's like something about 783 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:39,880 Speaker 1: it must be just human nature, like something that's so 784 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,680 Speaker 1: hard about being like actually I was wrong about this thing. 785 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:45,359 Speaker 1: But I remember some of those early arguments we used 786 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:48,200 Speaker 1: to have at BI when we talk about them today, 787 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,200 Speaker 1: I don't even remember what my stance was. That's exactly 788 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:52,920 Speaker 1: and that and that goes to show you how much 789 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,200 Speaker 1: I didn't care about the actual argument, but I just 790 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,799 Speaker 1: wanted to argue, and like wanted not to say that 791 00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:04,000 Speaker 1: I was wrong. Thanks for listening to No Such Thing 792 00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:08,360 Speaker 1: produced by Manny, Noah and Devin. Theme song by me Manny. 793 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:10,759 Speaker 1: Shout out to Zach for joining us, and thank you 794 00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:14,040 Speaker 1: to everyone who's sent in voice notes. You all concerned me, 795 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,320 Speaker 1: but it means the world. Please rate this five stars 796 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:19,520 Speaker 1: on wherever you're listening to this, and be sure to 797 00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:23,040 Speaker 1: follow us on our substack at No Such Thing dot show. 798 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:24,319 Speaker 1: Talk to you guys soon.