1 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,119 Speaker 2: My name is Robert Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, 3 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 2: and it's Saturday, so we are bringing you a vault episode. 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,640 Speaker 2: This one originally aired on October fourth, twenty twenty two. 5 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:20,760 Speaker 2: It's part two of our series on elf Shot. 6 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:22,079 Speaker 1: I hope you enjoy. 7 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 8 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 9 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:39,879 Speaker 2: This is Robert Lamb and this is Joe McCormick, and 10 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 2: we're back with part two of our series on elf Shot. Now, 11 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 2: this is an idea we introduced in part one. If 12 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 2: you haven't listened to that yet, you should go back 13 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 2: check that one out first. But basically, elf Shot is 14 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 2: a what would you say, Rob, Look, it's a complex 15 00:00:56,000 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 2: of interlocking folk beliefs, not a single belief, but it's 16 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 2: found especially in the British Isles and essentially centering on 17 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:09,320 Speaker 2: the idea of fairies or elves attacking mortal humans and 18 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 2: especially their livestock with supernatural weapons. Would you say that's 19 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:14,559 Speaker 2: fair Yeah? 20 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, There's a lot going on in it, as we 21 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 1: discussed in the first episode. I mean, on one hand, 22 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: there's the interpretation of artifacts, of artifacts that from various 23 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: time periods, both ancient and relatively recent. There's also the 24 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: attempt to understand mysterious ailments, mostly in livestock, but sometimes 25 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:41,040 Speaker 1: in human beings as well, and then various folk traditions 26 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: getting wrapped up into these scripts. And it's also it 27 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: seems to be highly regional too, so there's not just 28 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 1: one elf erroscript. We have multiple scripts and it ends 29 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: up tying into folk medicine and so forth as well. 30 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that folk medicine aspect is very interesting. I 31 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 2: want to come back to that in just a minute. 32 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 2: So in the last episode we did talk about some 33 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:09,079 Speaker 2: direct accounts of folk beliefs about elf shot, especially in Scotland, 34 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 2: I think is where a lot of these accounts came from, 35 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 2: and they included things like, okay, you'd have a story 36 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 2: where a calf suddenly falls ill and dies with no 37 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 2: apparent explanation, and then the farmer confirms that elf shot 38 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 2: was the cause because he and his neighbor open up 39 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 2: the cow's body and they find a hole in its heart, 40 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 2: even though there was no hole in the hide, So 41 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,360 Speaker 2: it must have been some kind of supernatural fairy weapon 42 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 2: that can pierce through the hide without actually breaking it 43 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,799 Speaker 2: and strike only the internal organs. And then, of course, 44 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 2: when it was believed that there was an injury of 45 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 2: this kind caused by an elf for a fairy weapon, 46 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 2: there were plenty of magical remedies, and rob, can you 47 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 2: characterize what some of the main themes and these remedies were. 48 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, some of the main themes included, of course, being 49 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: able to fetch either the elf arrow or have an 50 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 1: elf arrow that you found, or elf arrows that were 51 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: in the possession of the town or local community, and 52 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 1: using those in the treatment. Oftentimes this would take the 53 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: form of immersing them in water and then using that 54 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: water either as a drink for the afflicted or as 55 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: something that is rubbed on the afflicted or poured on 56 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: the site of the wounding, that sort of thing. But again, 57 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: there are a number of different versions of this, and 58 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 1: so various wrinkles get added depending on which tradition you're 59 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: looking at, which account. 60 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, other things were just like, hey, mix up some 61 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 2: gunpowder with some eggs and stuff like that and then 62 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 2: feed that to the cow. Right delicious. But anyway, I 63 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 2: wanted to address a question that came up while we 64 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 2: were talking talking last time. I didn't have the answer 65 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 2: to it at the time, so I decided to look 66 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 2: it up before we recorded this episode. And the question 67 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 2: is is there such a thing as the placebo effect 68 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 2: for non human animals? Of course, the placebo effect in 69 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 2: humans is something that often comes up when we're talking 70 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 2: about well, talking about medicine in any context, but it's 71 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 2: especially important when you're talking about like the history of 72 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:19,159 Speaker 2: pre scientific medicine, Like why did people think that soaking 73 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 2: a stone arrowhead in water and then pressing it to 74 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 2: their skin had actually healed them of a disease? Like 75 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 2: if you have any a tumor or a bacterial infection 76 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 2: or something, we can be relatively confident that this intervention 77 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 2: does not actually shrink the tumor or kill the bacteria. 78 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 2: And yet people often thought interventions like this had healed them. 79 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 2: So what made them think that? I think some of 80 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,280 Speaker 2: that can be chalked up to a concept that we 81 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 2: did an episode about, I think last year. It was 82 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 2: a statistical phenomenon called regression toward the mean or regression 83 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:57,359 Speaker 2: to the mean. But you can also think of this 84 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 2: concept as returning to the baseline. So as a quick explainer, 85 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 2: for that. Imagine you suddenly get a pain in your 86 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:08,720 Speaker 2: foot and you've never had that pain before, and you're like, ah, 87 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 2: it really hurts. I don't know what to do, but 88 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 2: your friend says, well, I know what to do. You 89 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 2: have to sing a Gregorian chant and then you have 90 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 2: to lick the morning dew from a spider's web. So 91 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 2: you try that out. You want your foot to stop hurting, 92 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 2: and then what do you know, sometime after that, your 93 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:28,720 Speaker 2: foot does stop hurting. Now, in a situation like this, 94 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 2: we really all have a tendency to think something has 95 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 2: been proved here, like, ah, the spider doo did work, 96 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:39,719 Speaker 2: But actually, how do you know that your foot wouldn't 97 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 2: have stopped hurting on its own just as soon if 98 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 2: you didn't do any of that stuff. In fact, the 99 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 2: whole point is that your foot doesn't usually hurt. The 100 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 2: state of pain is an outlier. That's an anomalous condition, 101 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 2: So things going back to normal on a certain timescale 102 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 2: is a totally expected outcome, all things being equal, and 103 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:05,239 Speaker 2: regression to the mean is especially important in medicine because 104 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 2: it tends to be specifically when we're in an anomalous condition, 105 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 2: a condition that is not normal. For us that we 106 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 2: seek medical interventions. So if you want to know if 107 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 2: a medical intervention actually works or not, you have to 108 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 2: compare its efficacy against a say, placebo control group, instead 109 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 2: of just giving somebody a treatment and saying did you 110 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 2: get better? If you do that, you don't know if 111 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:32,719 Speaker 2: they would have gotten better anyway, Having the comparison between 112 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 2: the two groups gives you confidence in the efficacy. But 113 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 2: on top of just the regression to the mean as 114 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 2: a baseline effect, you've also got psychological effects where if 115 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 2: you actually compare people who receive an intervention like a 116 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 2: medicine or a ritual or a doctor's visit versus people 117 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 2: who don't receive any intervention, sometimes people who receive an 118 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 2: intervention have better outcomes on average, even if there's no 119 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 2: way that intervention is actually doing anything. If it's like 120 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 2: you know, pressing the arrowhead deer skin, this might be 121 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 2: considered the pure placebo effect, improved outcomes associated with an 122 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 2: intervention even though it's not doing anything mechanistically or chemically 123 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 2: to solve the problem. And though the placebo effect shows 124 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 2: up for a range of conditions and treatments, it seems 125 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 2: to be especially powerful for conditions that are modulated by 126 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 2: the brain, such as the perception of pain and other 127 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 2: types of discomfort. So, to bring it back to the 128 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 2: question of elfshot cattle, could it be possible that a 129 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 2: non human animal benefits from the placebo effect of a 130 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 2: magical cure in some way, even though they can't understand 131 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 2: the concept of medicine or develop expectations that the magical 132 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 2: cure would heal them. And you know, the thing I 133 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 2: was wondering about with this is there's evidence that some 134 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 2: placebo effects and humans are created not so much by 135 00:07:55,760 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 2: the expectation that the treatment is efficacious, but by the 136 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 2: reassurance felt in the presence of a doctor or a 137 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 2: nurse who has a good bedside manner. And I thought, well, 138 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 2: maybe it's possible that animals could be calmed or soothed 139 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 2: by certain kinds of human attention, even if they're not 140 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 2: able to understand that it is for the intended purpose 141 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 2: of healing. So anyway, I went looking this up and 142 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 2: I found an interesting article by Emily Anthis who is 143 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 2: also the author of a book we've talked about on 144 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 2: the show before called The Great Indoors. It's all about 145 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 2: the effects of living and spending time indoors. But this 146 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 2: was an article published in the Atlantic in twenty nineteen 147 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 2: called a Crucial blind Spot in Veterinary Medicine. So the 148 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 2: top line answer here is a clear yes, there is 149 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 2: such a thing as the placebo effect in non human 150 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 2: animals in veterinary medicine, but it probably works by different 151 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 2: means than the human version of the placebo effect. So 152 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 2: here's an example. Anthis begins by talking about a particular 153 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 2: study of treatments for canine epilepsy, epilepsy and dogs. This 154 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 2: research was being carried out in the early two thousands. 155 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 2: I think this was in the year two thousand and three, 156 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 2: and the citation here is the Journal of Veterinary Medicine. 157 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 2: The article was called Placebo Effect in Canine Epilepsy Trials 158 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 2: and the authors were Munyana, Jong and Patterson, eventually published 159 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 2: in twenty ten, and the story is that the researchers 160 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 2: were testing an anti convulsant drug called levetaracetam and it 161 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 2: was intended to curtail epileptic seizures in dogs. So in 162 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 2: the test group, the group that was actually getting the drug, 163 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 2: eighty six percent of dogs of their owners reported a 164 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 2: reduction in seizure frequency, which bodes very well for the drug. 165 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 2: But then the study also happened to have a placebo 166 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 2: control group, which we're receiving a dummy treatment that was 167 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 2: supposed to do nothing, and in that group, seventy nine 168 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 2: percent also saw it reduction in reported. 169 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 1: Seizures seventy nine compared to eighty six. 170 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 2: That's that's impressive, right, Well, it would tend to make 171 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 2: you doubt that the test group is that it's actually 172 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 2: the drug that is making the difference. So at the 173 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 2: time of this study, anthis notes that the double blind, 174 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 2: placebo controlled trials were not all that common in veterinary medicine, 175 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 2: which makes sense on one hand because again, like non human, 176 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 2: animals are not thought to be able to develop expectations 177 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 2: about a drug treatment or the efficacy of medicine, So 178 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:36,199 Speaker 2: how could you expect a placebo effect to exist in dogs. 179 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 2: But it's a good thing the study did use such 180 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 2: a controlled design, because otherwise the medicine would have looked 181 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 2: really good until you realize that fake medicine leads to 182 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 2: results that look about the same or almost as good. 183 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 1: I guess it's just the healing power of pill pockets, right. 184 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 2: My god, you can never doubt though. Man, those things 185 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 2: stink so much and dogs love them. What do they 186 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 2: put in those things? Do do you work in a 187 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 2: pill pocket factory? Tell oh, maybe we don't want to 188 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 2: know what goes in a pill pocket. That would be 189 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 2: that's Halloween content. 190 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: I have not had a good run with with feline 191 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 1: pill pockets. 192 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 2: Oh, I'm sorry, And. 193 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: Not to say they don't. You know, they work in 194 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 1: some some cats, and some cats are not crazy about them. 195 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 1: My cat will spit it out and then like dissect it. 196 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 1: And some brands of pill pockets you just didn't want 197 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: to want a piece off anyway, She's like, no, not 198 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:28,839 Speaker 1: eating that. 199 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 2: So do you ever use the trick this? This worked 200 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 2: for us in the past. Or if if the animal 201 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 2: is skeptical of the pill pocket with the pill in it, 202 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 2: you first have to give them an empty pill pocket 203 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 2: that has no pill in it, so they get used 204 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 2: to like, oh, yeah, I can just eat this straight up. 205 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 2: And then the second one or the third one you 206 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 2: give them. I mean, that's a lot of pill pockets 207 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 2: if you're stacking it out. But if you're desperate, you 208 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,959 Speaker 2: can try the empty pill pocket first to lower their defenses. 209 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: Well, you'd think that would work, but we ended up 210 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: using the waters ringe to just blast it into the 211 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:05,199 Speaker 1: back of her throat, and that seems to work well. Again, 212 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:06,680 Speaker 1: and that's a method that's not going to work for 213 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 1: every cat either, So it's it's tough getting the meds 214 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: in these animals sometimes. 215 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 2: Oh and I should also note that so the main 216 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 2: study anthis is talking about here in this article is 217 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 2: in dogs, but she also cites studies that have reported 218 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 2: placebo effects in cats and in horses. So, anyway, how 219 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:27,680 Speaker 2: on earth could this be? Like, Again, we're assuming that 220 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 2: dogs themselves are not developing expectations that a drug will 221 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 2: be effective. I think that's a very fair assumption. They 222 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 2: don't understand what's going on. How on earth could such 223 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 2: a strong placebo effect manifest? And a number of ideas 224 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 2: are discussed in this article. One is one we already 225 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 2: talked about, regression to the mean, Right, People are more 226 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 2: likely to enroll in a clinical trial for their dogs 227 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 2: epilepsy if seizures have been especially bad lately, and conditions 228 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:57,680 Speaker 2: like epilepsy tend to sort of wax and weigan on 229 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 2: their own anyway, So you could enroll the dog at 230 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 2: a time when their seizures are bad, and then that 231 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 2: would just tend to, by the law of averages, give 232 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 2: way to a period where they return to the baseline 233 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 2: and have fewer seizures. So again, a good reason to 234 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:16,719 Speaker 2: have a placebo control group to compare your test group to. 235 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 2: Second thing that I thought was interesting and this site's 236 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 2: something called the Hawthorn effect, which is the idea that 237 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 2: people often behave differently when they know they're being studied 238 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 2: or observed. I think the name of this effect comes 239 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:37,679 Speaker 2: from some anecdote about industrial productivity research, which found all 240 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 2: kinds of spurious effects for things like, oh, what would 241 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,559 Speaker 2: happen if we change the lighting in this room? Are 242 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 2: workers more productive? Oh, it turns out they are. But 243 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 2: then one ex post facto explanation for all these spurious 244 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 2: results is just that when employees know that they're part 245 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 2: of an experiment, they are more productive because they know 246 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 2: they're being closely scrutinized. This would not apply so much 247 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 2: to the dogs themselves, but probably to the owners. So 248 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 2: in the case of the epilepsy study in dogs, Anti 249 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 2: writes that all of the dogs in the study were 250 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 2: already on at least one other anti seizure medication, and 251 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 2: levetteractam was being studied as a supplemental drug, So one 252 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 2: possibility is that once enrolled in a study, pet owners 253 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 2: may have been more consistent about making sure their dogs 254 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 2: got all doses of their pre existing, pre tested epilepsy 255 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 2: medication on time. Other possible explanations what about more attentive 256 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 2: veterinary care. It's possible that while enrolled in the study, 257 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 2: the animals were getting special attention from vets, and this 258 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 2: would be partially in line with the explanation I was 259 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 2: guessing about beforehand, something roughly parallel to the effect of 260 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 2: a reassuring doctor or nurse. And I think it is 261 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 2: a pre existing finding that some gentle affectionate attention from 262 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 2: humans can help animals like dogs and horses show fewer 263 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 2: symptoms of discomfort or anxiety and things like that. In 264 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 2: some cases you could actually have classical conditioning. Probably it's 265 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 2: hard to see how it would apply to this case, 266 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 2: but anthis writes quote. For example, rats that have regularly 267 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 2: been getting insulin injections will still experience blood sugar changes 268 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 2: if they suddenly start receiving saline injections instead. Again, I 269 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 2: don't think this would apply directly to the epilepsy study, 270 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 2: but you could imagine it applying to other studies. But 271 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 2: then the primary explanation favored by anthis in this article 272 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 2: is something called the caregiver placebo effect or the placebo 273 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 2: effect by proxy. And this one's pretty straightforward when you 274 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 2: think about it. Animals can't report or explain their own symptoms. 275 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 2: Understanding the symptoms experienced by an animal, whether that's something 276 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 2: like a seizure or whether it's something even more elusive 277 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 2: like discomfort or pain, that requires human observation of some kind, 278 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 2: usually reports by the pet owners, and the pet owner 279 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 2: absolutely can form expectations about improvement based on believing that 280 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 2: their pet is getting a treatment of some kind, even 281 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 2: though their pet might actually be in the placebo arm 282 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 2: of the study. They don't know that if it's a 283 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 2: good if it's a well designed study, so they think 284 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 2: their pet might be receiving the actual drug. They form 285 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 2: expectations that the pet will be getting better, and thus 286 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 2: they interpret everything they see in light of those expectations. 287 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 2: Because again, seizure frequency in the study in question was 288 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 2: measured by owner reports, and you might imagine, well, okay, 289 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 2: you know, it's pretty clear whether a dog is having 290 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 2: a seizure or not. Well, you might assume that, but 291 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 2: in fact, pet owners are not always there to see 292 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 2: a seizure take place. Sometimes you have to interpret ambiguous evidence. 293 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 2: So the example given in the article is if there's 294 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:05,239 Speaker 2: a spot of saliva on the floor, is that a 295 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 2: sign that the dog had a seizure unobserved and drooled 296 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:10,679 Speaker 2: on the floor or is that just nothing? Did the 297 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 2: dog just drip rool because they just dripped rule. If 298 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 2: the owners believe their dogs are receiving a drug that 299 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:20,679 Speaker 2: will help reduce the seizures, does that actually make the 300 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 2: owner less likely to interpret that evidence as evidence of 301 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 2: a seizure. 302 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: Yeah? OK, see what you're talking about here. Okay, well 303 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 1: he's on the medicine, so I guess that's not a 304 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: seizure drool, that's just druel. 305 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 2: Yeah. The article also cites a veterinary surgeon at the 306 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:41,640 Speaker 2: University of Minnesota named Michael Conzimius, who gives a really 307 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 2: interesting example from a different study. This was a study 308 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 2: on anti inflammatory treatments for arthritis in dogs, and they 309 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 2: did a trial that involved both subjective and objective measurements 310 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 2: of how well this anti inflammatory was doing to reduce 311 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 2: our th that's pain in the limbs. And so the 312 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,199 Speaker 2: subjective measure was you would ask both pet owners and 313 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 2: veterinarians to observe the dog and rate how much pain 314 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 2: they seemed to be in. And then there were also 315 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 2: objective measures, and this would be having the dog walk 316 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 2: a on a complicated setup of digital scales to determine 317 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 2: how much weight the dogs were putting on each limb 318 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 2: while walking, because if the dog, if one of the 319 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 2: dog's limbs is in pain, they will tend to put 320 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 2: less weight on that limb. And this study found conflicts 321 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:34,159 Speaker 2: between the subjective measures and the objective measures. So in 322 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 2: the placebo group, owners and vets who thought the dog 323 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 2: might be receiving the drug but actually they were just 324 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 2: getting a placebo, reported improvements, but the objective measure, the 325 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 2: scales did not show improvement. So in the placebo group, 326 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 2: they're getting a fake treatment. The owners and the veterinarians 327 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 2: are like, yeah, we think the dog is doing better, 328 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:58,160 Speaker 2: but when you put them on the scales, they're still 329 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:01,680 Speaker 2: not putting weight on that limb. So the dog itself 330 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 2: is not affected by receiving the placebo, but the human 331 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:08,400 Speaker 2: observers are interestingly even the veterinarians. 332 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: This is interesting because when we first raised the question 333 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: about bolicebo effected animals, and then when you brought up 334 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:18,920 Speaker 1: dogs here, my first thought was, while dogs are highly 335 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 1: social animals, so perhaps there is some sort of social 336 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:26,640 Speaker 1: dynamic between the way that their human is treating them, 337 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 1: like maybe it has to do and maybe it has 338 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: to do with pill pockets, like oh, I'm getting more 339 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 1: snacks or I'm getting more attention or something like that. 340 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:35,880 Speaker 1: And then that of course would be something that would 341 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 1: not seem to readily translate into the livestock world. But 342 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 1: what we're looking at here these are examples that, if 343 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 1: I'm not mistaken, would translate rather readily into the world 344 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:49,120 Speaker 1: of caring for livestock. 345 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's about the human observers, like the cow 346 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 2: whatever is making it into these reports that are in 347 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 2: like anthropological texts or you know, folklore journals or whatever. 348 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 2: The cow doesn't actually get to write that report that's 349 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 2: made by humans, and it's usually going to be like 350 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,879 Speaker 2: the farmer saying, yeah, my cow got better or something 351 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:11,120 Speaker 2: like that. And they could well be affected by caregiver 352 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 2: placebo effect. They form expectations of efficacy and they interpret 353 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:19,680 Speaker 2: what they see through that lens. Another thing is that 354 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 2: this article reports how sometimes animal pain is observable to 355 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 2: one human onlooker but not to another. Again, just based 356 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 2: on expectations, Like our emotional biases are very strong in 357 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 2: this area. And one example given would be, you know, 358 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 2: a pet owner brings an animal into the vet and 359 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 2: it was in pain before, and the vet observes that 360 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 2: the animal does still appear to be in pain, but 361 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,360 Speaker 2: the owner says, no, no, no, he's not he's he's 362 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,879 Speaker 2: much better now. I've been giving him these homeopathic treatments 363 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,119 Speaker 2: I found. And you know, that's a mix of things. 364 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 2: Like the pet owner, they love their pet, so they 365 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 2: desire to believe that the beloved animal is doing better. 366 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:00,679 Speaker 2: And then on top of that, you could have like 367 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 2: a choice supportive bias bias to you know, where you 368 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:08,359 Speaker 2: interpret reality in a way that supports the idea that 369 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,120 Speaker 2: what you have decided to do was the right decision. 370 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 2: So the choice supportive bias says your selected intervention is working. 371 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 2: And that may be a magical treatment or a non 372 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 2: science based intervention like homeopathy or something, and that can 373 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:28,399 Speaker 2: blind you to signs of distress that other unbiased onlookers 374 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:29,360 Speaker 2: could see. 375 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because at least you feel like you're doing 376 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 1: something in those cases, and or you're a consultant. You 377 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: may be consulting experts in the local community that are 378 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: also assuring you like, yeah, this is the way to go, 379 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 1: this is what will we'll get results. 380 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think the important thing to stress here 381 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:46,639 Speaker 2: is that this occurs. You don't have to be like 382 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 2: an uncaring you know, companion to your non human animal 383 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 2: of whatever type. It is like you can care very 384 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 2: much about their well being and have this kind of bias. 385 00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 2: It's not like a result of being cold and unfeeling cruel. 386 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 2: So just a couple final notes on this article. One 387 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 2: is just that a big takeaway is you should be 388 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,679 Speaker 2: careful when observing the symptoms of a non human animal, 389 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 2: of a pet or whatever, not to let these kinds 390 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 2: of biases prevent you from finding the most effective treatment 391 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,680 Speaker 2: or solution. You know, whenever possible, try to look for 392 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 2: objective pieces of behavioral evidence that remove your subjective evaluation 393 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,120 Speaker 2: from things. And then the other thing is about these 394 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 2: standards of evidence within veterinary medicine. Unfortunately, the history of 395 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:37,880 Speaker 2: veterinary studies has included fewer double blind placebo controlled trials 396 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 2: than human medicine, because again, for a long time, nobody 397 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 2: really thought placebo effect would come into play in a 398 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,679 Speaker 2: major way in veterinary medicine. But it looks like, at 399 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 2: least in some cases, it really does, especially when that 400 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 2: reported outcomes are based on owner's perceptions. And so this 401 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 2: is changing and more evidentiary standards like this are being 402 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 2: introduced into veterinary medicine. But it may mean that the 403 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 2: evaluation of the true efficacy of veterinary medicine has in 404 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 2: some cases, especially when the basis is older, maybe on 405 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 2: a lower standard of evidence than in human drug trials. 406 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:16,160 Speaker 2: But fortunately that that is changing. But anyway, so I'm 407 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 2: bringing all this back to thoughts about how this could 408 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 2: relate to like a Scottish farmer in the seventeenth century 409 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 2: who believes that his cow is sick or his horse 410 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 2: is sick because it has been elf shot, it has 411 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 2: been hit by a fairy arrow and summon someone to 412 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:36,399 Speaker 2: provide a magical cure that maybe involves neolithic flints or 413 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:40,440 Speaker 2: egg mixed with gunpowder and healing their cow. I wonder 414 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 2: how it relates to that. I mean, I would guess 415 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 2: that the specifically that last one, the caregiver placebo effect 416 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:48,640 Speaker 2: would be a major factor here. 417 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think so. That seems to be. That 418 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 1: would seem to be the key. 419 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 2: Though it also makes me wonder about the idea of 420 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,920 Speaker 2: an inverse thing. This is not addressed in the article 421 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:03,120 Speaker 2: at all, but a a caregiver no cebo effect. I mean, 422 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 2: it makes me wonder how you could have anxieties or 423 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,679 Speaker 2: beliefs about danger, other kinds of things taking place purely 424 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 2: within the mind of the animal caregiver that give rise 425 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:20,679 Speaker 2: to spurious diagnoses of illness or symptoms in the animal. 426 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,920 Speaker 2: Like what if, actually the cow is fine. The farmer 427 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 2: just gets freaked out about the idea that, oh, no, 428 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 2: something bad is happening to my cow for some reason, 429 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 2: and that brings on the illusion of distress, which could 430 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 2: then be treated by some kind of magical intervention, and 431 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,159 Speaker 2: then what do you know, the cow's fine afterwards. 432 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:44,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. This is especially possible given some of the linked 433 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 1: or perceived to be linked activities to elfshot. The case 434 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 1: is where humans did something they shouldn't have to attract 435 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 1: the attention of the elves, be it, you know, tramping 436 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 1: on sacred ground cutting down of a sacred tree or 437 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 1: or something of this nature, or even just the finding 438 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 1: of the elf era like this was curious. I was 439 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 1: out with my cattle and I found this artifact on 440 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: the ground. It's clearly an artifact of the elves. I 441 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 1: better check on my cattle and see how they're doing. Uh, oh, 442 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 1: this one's not doing too well. 443 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,159 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I didn't make that connection with the picking 444 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 2: up of the flint, but yeah, that makes sense. 445 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 1: Now. 446 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 2: There was a paper we talked about a little bit 447 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 2: in the previous episode that I wanted to come back 448 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 2: to and just mention a couple of more interesting little 449 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 2: stories from it. Was that paper called Elfshot Cattle by 450 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,159 Speaker 2: Thomas Davidson that was published in the journal Antiquity in 451 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 2: nineteen fifty six. Remember, this is the one that was 452 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 2: collecting a lot of those reports about elfshot. One of 453 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 2: the things that caught my attention was the claim that 454 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:01,119 Speaker 2: a lot of times these injuries from elfshot are not 455 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 2: inflicted directly by fairies or elves themselves. Davidson cites an 456 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,919 Speaker 2: author named Luied writing that there's a belief among some 457 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 2: that fairies have to use humans as intermediaries in order 458 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:18,719 Speaker 2: to inflict these injuries, since the fairies have little power 459 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 2: to cause direct physical injury to animal bodies themselves. So 460 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 2: sometimes these stories say humans are like sucked up into 461 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:31,199 Speaker 2: the air by fairies and then given fairy weapons and 462 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,920 Speaker 2: then forced to shoot at men or cattle. 463 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 1: So yeah, okay, so sort of possession going on here. 464 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. One example of this is a story called the 465 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 2: Tale of Black Donald of the Fairy Throng, And this 466 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 2: is a story where there's this guy named Donald and 467 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 2: he's out plowing. He's plowing the land, he's working in 468 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,440 Speaker 2: the furrows, and this is on the Isle of Tyree, 469 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 2: which is off the coast of Scotland. And Donald he's 470 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,399 Speaker 2: plowing and he gets sucked up by a fairy convoy 471 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 2: and then they force him to drop an arrow from 472 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,919 Speaker 2: the sky that kills a speckled cow. And this actually 473 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 2: connects with some of the critical stuff I was reading 474 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 2: about the elfshot tradition, which says that actually, in a 475 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 2: lot of these stories, it is being alleged that it's 476 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 2: humans who are doing the inflicting, like witches or something 477 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 2: who are inflicting damage with these weapons rather than elves directly. 478 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: Interesting and in yeah, it gets into a common trope 479 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: in many cultures of the sort of the like the 480 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: outsider within somebody within the community, either somebody from outside 481 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 1: the community or somebody within the community that has been 482 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,880 Speaker 1: corrupted somehow. Yeah. 483 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, one thing I had to mention just because it 484 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,879 Speaker 2: was funny. There's a long section of this paper that 485 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,199 Speaker 2: talks about alleged cures for elfshot, and one is a 486 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 2: recorded anecdote of a wise woman curing a cow in 487 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 2: the Shetlands by asking the crofter the farmer to bring 488 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 2: her a Bible, and he brings the Bible, and she 489 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 2: rips pages out of the Bible and balls them up 490 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,680 Speaker 2: into a pellet, and then crams the Bible page pellet 491 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 2: into a dimple in the cow's skin. Then there's another 492 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 2: one I have to share because it involves crabs and 493 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:24,120 Speaker 2: raises a mystery for me that I cannot solve. So 494 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 2: maybe the listeners have some input on this. So this 495 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 2: is from a source Davidson sites called Shetland Folklore. This 496 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 2: is a book by Spence, and I'm going to read 497 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 2: directly from Davidson's summary here. Oh sorry, this is still 498 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 2: about traditions in the Shetlands. Quote a variant prescription from 499 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 2: the same area directs the wise woman to take tar, 500 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 2: a needle, a bible, a firebrand, and some fairy crabs. 501 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 2: Waving the burning brand, she walked three times wittershens round 502 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 2: the cow. That means counterclockwise, three times around the cow, 503 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,959 Speaker 2: jabbing the animal with the needle, waving a leaf of 504 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 2: the Bible over its back, and muttering an incantation. The 505 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 2: firebrand was placed in a pot of tar and set 506 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 2: at the cow's head so the fumes would make her cough. 507 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 2: She was then given the fairy crabs to eat alive. 508 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 2: The ashes of the fire brand were later mixed with 509 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 2: the tar into three pills, which were administered to the 510 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 2: animal on three successive mornings. WHOA, what so involves eating 511 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 2: the fairy crabs alive? It says she, And I'm sorry, 512 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,239 Speaker 2: I'm not sure if that means the cow or the 513 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 2: wise woman. I think that means the cow. 514 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. I remember reading this in the source during the 515 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 1: initial research phase, and I could not figure out what 516 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 1: fairy crabs were. I was like, A, yeah, it was trying. 517 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: My mind was struggling to form. I was just imagining 518 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 1: like a glowing blue crab. 519 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,240 Speaker 2: I was confused too, and I tried to look this up. 520 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 2: There is an animal called a faery crab. You can 521 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 2: see it if you google that phrase. But it's clearly 522 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 2: not what this is referring to, because it's a species 523 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 2: of squat lobster called the scientific name is Lauria siagianni, 524 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 2: and it's native to the Pacific. It's found like off 525 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 2: the coast of Australia and Indonesia. I think, so this 526 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 2: is clearly not what they're talking about in the Shetlands, 527 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 2: and I was trying to find more information and I 528 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 2: just could not, So I wonder if this refers to 529 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 2: I don't know, if this is a local Shetland name 530 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 2: for a certain type of animal, like an actual crab 531 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 2: or some type of insect or something. I really have 532 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 2: no idea. 533 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I can imagine it going in different directions, some 534 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 1: sort of novel crab that's found on the shore or 535 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 1: turned up in nets, or indeed something that is found 536 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 1: in streams, or is not a crab at all, but 537 00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: some sort of an insect with some sort of folk 538 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: edison properties to it. Or I mean, certainly we have 539 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 1: examples in plenty of cultures where if something is named 540 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 1: after an animal but is not itself an animal. It 541 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 1: could be you know, you can imagine a situation where 542 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 1: the fairy crab is actually some sort of a root 543 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 1: something into that effect. So there's so many different directions 544 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 1: that could go in not knowing exactly what this is 545 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: referring to. 546 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 2: Well, hey listeners, if you've got insight on this, you 547 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 2: know what the faery crabs are right in. One last 548 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 2: subject that Davidson brings up with respect to elfshot is 549 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 2: the idea of curved plow furrows and ridges in order 550 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 2: to quote Wander the Ferry, which I found so interesting. 551 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,480 Speaker 2: It's the idea that if you go throughout Scotland and 552 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 2: you look at some old cultivated fields, you'll find that, 553 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 2: you know, these places that are there, they're dug with 554 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 2: a what's known as like a ridge and furrow system. 555 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 2: So you'll see a series of basically you know, lines 556 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 2: where like you have a plot area and then like 557 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 2: a sort of ridge of moved earth piled up in 558 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 2: between them. And an interesting thing about a lot of 559 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 2: these is they are created with so that the ridges 560 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 2: and the furrows are not straight lines, but are curved 561 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 2: or crooked or s shaped even and it is believed 562 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 2: by some that the purpose of this is to confuse 563 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 2: or quote wander the fairy, to maybe lead the ferry 564 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 2: off course or lead the elf off course. This is 565 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 2: not the only system, by the way, that would use this. 566 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 2: Like Davidson notes that a lot of amulets that are 567 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 2: designed for protection against fairies have a rays of kind 568 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 2: of spiral patterns or can you know, complex whirls within them, 569 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 2: or labyrinths or something, and this is designed to confuse 570 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 2: the evil spirits, to kind of send them on a 571 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 2: maze like journey that will lead them astray and keep 572 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 2: them from harming you. 573 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 1: These If you haven't seen these ridge and furrow features, 574 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: definitely look them up and do an image search, because 575 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 1: you can see lots of wonderful aerial photographs of this 576 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 1: sort of thing, and you know, you can sort of 577 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 1: imagine the trail of the of the elf going astray. Here. 578 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 2: Oh, some of the ones you're looking at are the 579 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 2: curved ones, because some are just straight, but others some 580 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 2: are just straight. 581 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: But I was looking at one in particular here where 582 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: you do see you kind of see a mix in 583 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 1: this particular one. You see the different areas of land 584 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 1: and definite curves in some areas where and one kind 585 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 1: of has like almost like a fern look because you 586 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 1: have the line going down the middle and you have 587 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: some like like different wavings on each side. 588 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 2: So the magical understanding here again is that this, well, 589 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 2: it could throw fairies off, just generally because you know, 590 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 2: you make twisting paths in order to confuse evil spirits. 591 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 2: But the other thing would be it doesn't allow them 592 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 2: to get a clear straight line shot at the cattle, 593 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 2: like at the oxen that you're using to plow the field. 594 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is strange, Like this idea of the l 595 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 1: is kind of like this. You know, I guess you 596 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 1: look at different folklore systems. It's like you want to 597 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:10,319 Speaker 1: avoid doing things that draw attention to yourself. You know. 598 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:12,759 Speaker 1: We definitely see that with the elf and fairy folk 599 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,760 Speaker 1: traditions in this part of the world, with the wearing 600 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:17,919 Speaker 1: of green, which we've discussed before. Don't wear the green 601 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 1: that's the color of the elves or the fairies. They'll 602 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 1: come at you. You also see that with traditions of 603 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,759 Speaker 1: the evil eye in the Middle East, where there are 604 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,440 Speaker 1: various things like you should not do because this invisible 605 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: ne faariaus force is out there in the world, and 606 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,719 Speaker 1: you do not want it aware of your presence or 607 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 1: your fortune, so you don't get on its radar, don't 608 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:42,080 Speaker 1: have direct lines leading to you. Be that line something 609 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:44,759 Speaker 1: like you know, you shouting about how beautiful your child is. 610 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 1: You know. In the case of some of the evil 611 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 1: eye traditions, and particularly in Judaism, I remember hearing about 612 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:55,160 Speaker 1: reading about or in this case, like a physical line 613 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 1: through the altered landscape. 614 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 2: I think this type of belief is still present and 615 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,960 Speaker 2: in like modern day Christianity. Like I remember when I 616 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 2: was a kid hearing about the dangers of playing with 617 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 2: a wija board, and the idea was it attracts demonic attention. 618 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,719 Speaker 2: I mean that's literally like the it's it's like when 619 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,279 Speaker 2: you play with a wija board. It's not so much 620 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 2: something about the board as evil, but it it sort 621 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,879 Speaker 2: of like puts up a beacon to demons that says, hey, 622 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,799 Speaker 2: I'm available, you know, pay attention to me, and they 623 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 2: will hone in on you because you have done that. 624 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,759 Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh. In quick note, I mentioned Judaism and the 625 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,319 Speaker 1: evil eye and so forth. The evil eye is not 626 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 1: necessarily like a part of Judaism. I don't want to 627 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 1: imply that but it is something that is sort of 628 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: in the folkloric traditions of various peoples in the Middle East, 629 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 1: including you'll see that in Judic culture. Yeah, and certainly 630 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,279 Speaker 1: we see similar site case with this here because we 631 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 1: have people who are discussing that have taken you know, 632 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,719 Speaker 1: head that have converted to Christianity, and but there's still 633 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 1: there's still practicing beliefs. They're still engaging in belief of 634 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 1: the elves, but they're also incorporating in some of these 635 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 1: Christian traditions like well, maybe we're you know, lought up 636 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 1: a Bible page and stick it into that furrow in 637 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:07,759 Speaker 1: the cow. That'll help too. 638 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 2: This is this next thing is not really addressed in Davidson, 639 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:14,440 Speaker 2: But I was wondering about this because I was reading 640 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:18,880 Speaker 2: about the ridge and furrow system elsewhere after reading this 641 00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:22,399 Speaker 2: passage from Davidson, and it seems to me that sometimes 642 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 2: the strips that are plowed in this system are curved 643 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:31,319 Speaker 2: for totally mundane reasons that have nothing to do with 644 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,400 Speaker 2: magical beliefs. So I think that they're often curved just 645 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 2: because of it was a sort of necessary consequence of 646 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 2: the types of plow rigging and oxen pulling teams that 647 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,360 Speaker 2: they used at the time. They would lead to a 648 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 2: furrow or a ridge being kind of like curved off 649 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,840 Speaker 2: at each end every time the team turned around to 650 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,879 Speaker 2: make a new line. And that makes me wonder if 651 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:59,759 Speaker 2: something like twisting twisting in these rows could have originally 652 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,839 Speaker 2: been a totally mundane thing that somebody saw and then 653 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:06,760 Speaker 2: in trying to explain why it was like that without 654 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 2: understanding it, they came up with this explanation about confusing 655 00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:15,360 Speaker 2: the fairies, and then afterwards did it like that on purpose. 656 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,040 Speaker 1: So it's like somebody like the landowner whoever, comes out 657 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,399 Speaker 1: to check on the work. It's like, Dale, what's going 658 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,480 Speaker 1: on with these ridges and furrows? Look look at it. 659 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,799 Speaker 1: It's just like I can tell it's crooked. And Dale's like, well, 660 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 1: do you want the fairies coming straight at you? I 661 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,200 Speaker 1: didn't think, so you're welcome. This, of course, also reminds 662 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 1: me of on one hand, and this may well be 663 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:41,320 Speaker 1: connected the idea that vampires might be deterred by hanging 664 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 1: some sort of a nodded item or or carefully woven 665 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,000 Speaker 1: item out for them like a complex pattern, then will 666 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:48,960 Speaker 1: draw their attention and they have to deal with and 667 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,359 Speaker 1: maybe get they'll either spend all their time doing that 668 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:53,719 Speaker 1: and leave you alone, or perhaps even get caught in 669 00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 1: the sunlight the loose track of time. And then of 670 00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,320 Speaker 1: course I can't help but think of crop circles as well, 671 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 1: which again, as we've discussed I think we've discussed this 672 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 1: in the show before. I mean crop crop circles a 673 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,719 Speaker 1: pretty much put to bed as a you know, is 674 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:13,040 Speaker 1: the work of human actors. But thinking about like sort 675 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,759 Speaker 1: of the draw to do this to a field, like 676 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:20,240 Speaker 1: the human intention to do this, and there are several 677 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:22,320 Speaker 1: factors that can play into that someone which may actually 678 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 1: come up in our next episode of so to blow 679 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:29,800 Speaker 1: your mind, But the idea of like just seeing that field, 680 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:31,800 Speaker 1: like I wonder if there's some sort of draw that like, no, 681 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,200 Speaker 1: the lines are too too perfect, everything is just too 682 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,600 Speaker 1: pristine like this this this, this land has been too 683 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:42,040 Speaker 1: finely transformed. We got to get some swirls in there. 684 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:43,719 Speaker 1: We got to get some circles, you know. 685 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, that is a good comparison. I didn't think you 686 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:47,799 Speaker 2: were going to crop circles though. 687 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 1: I thought you were. 688 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 2: Gonna mention the jung she being being warded off by 689 00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,120 Speaker 2: spilling glutinous rice on the floor because they'll I think 690 00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:56,640 Speaker 2: they'll be counting the grains, right. 691 00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that that also, that's a good point as well. 692 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:03,040 Speaker 1: I forgot about that one, something about yeah, the inhuman 693 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:08,520 Speaker 1: analytical mind of non human beings in folklore, and that 694 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:13,920 Speaker 1: they can be led astray by either randomized patterns or 695 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,280 Speaker 1: things of human creation that have some sort of eloquence 696 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,480 Speaker 1: to them, which is kind of ironic given that we're 697 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,240 Speaker 1: talking about situations where human beings may in some cases 698 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:25,719 Speaker 1: have just like completely flipped their wig over finding an 699 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:29,239 Speaker 1: old flint arrow in the dirt. So I guess it 700 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:30,080 Speaker 1: cuts both ways. 701 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:38,879 Speaker 2: Now, there's one more paper I wanted to briefly mention 702 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,919 Speaker 2: that gets way more into the weeds about a particular 703 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:46,360 Speaker 2: text that is believed or has been believed to reference Elfshot. 704 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:48,920 Speaker 2: But I thought this was interesting too. So this was 705 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:52,759 Speaker 2: a paper by a professor of English at the University 706 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,960 Speaker 2: of Leeds named Alaric Hall called Calling the Shots the 707 00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:01,839 Speaker 2: Old English Remedy Gift Horror off Scott and Sea and 708 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,160 Speaker 2: Anglo Saxon elf Shot, published in two thousand and five. 709 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:09,200 Speaker 2: So this paper is mainly an attempt to critically re 710 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 2: examine an Anglo Saxon text called Gift Horse of Scott 711 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,520 Speaker 2: and Sea, which is a passage from a medieval Anglo 712 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,920 Speaker 2: Saxon medical text that has been widely interpreted as being 713 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,200 Speaker 2: about elf shot. The title Gift Horse of Scott and 714 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:27,560 Speaker 2: Sea translates to if a horse be and then the 715 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:31,120 Speaker 2: word is off scotten. And the question is what does 716 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:35,280 Speaker 2: off scotton mean. It's been traditionally translated as elf shot 717 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,360 Speaker 2: if a horse be elf shot. Hall argues that it 718 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:41,080 Speaker 2: should not be understood that way, and yet there are 719 00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:45,520 Speaker 2: still references to elf attacks within the passage. So this 720 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:49,440 Speaker 2: is Hall's translation of this text, which is interesting in itself. 721 00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:53,600 Speaker 2: If a horse be off scotten, take then a dagger 722 00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:57,399 Speaker 2: whose halft is of fallow Ox's horn, and in which 723 00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:00,919 Speaker 2: there are three brass nails. And then there's a term 724 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,520 Speaker 2: that every time is rendered as right slash. Inscribe. I'm 725 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:08,160 Speaker 2: just going to say, inscribe, inscribe on the horse on 726 00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:13,600 Speaker 2: the forehead, Christ's mark, so it bleeds. Inscribe then Christ's 727 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,800 Speaker 2: mark on the spine, and on each of the limbs 728 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,560 Speaker 2: which you can grasp. This, shall you do take a 729 00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:24,160 Speaker 2: staff strike on the back. Then the horse will be 730 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:30,239 Speaker 2: well and inscribe on the dagger's handle. These words been 731 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:35,759 Speaker 2: a decetae omnia opera domini dominum, which means bless all 732 00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:39,440 Speaker 2: the works of the Lord of Lords. Should it be 733 00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,880 Speaker 2: alps which is on it, this will do as a 734 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:46,719 Speaker 2: remedy for it. And so Hall makes the argument in 735 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:50,000 Speaker 2: this paper that the primary condition being described in this 736 00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:54,160 Speaker 2: text under the word oafscotten should not be translated as 737 00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:57,279 Speaker 2: elf shot as it traditionally has been, but it is 738 00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:02,200 Speaker 2: something like badly pained. It's more more mundane condition that 739 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:06,400 Speaker 2: is prompting this entire remedy. However, even if that's correct, 740 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,560 Speaker 2: the last line of the remedy does mention the idea 741 00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:14,279 Speaker 2: of this word alf the ae combined vowel and then 742 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:18,720 Speaker 2: l fe, though this sentence is also kind of difficult 743 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:20,520 Speaker 2: to translate the one that's got the alph in it. 744 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,279 Speaker 2: I think the understanding that makes the most sense is 745 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:27,080 Speaker 2: this whole remedy is for regular bad pain in horses, 746 00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:31,240 Speaker 2: and then there's an additional remedy, the one that's riding 747 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:34,000 Speaker 2: on the dagger's handle, the words bless all the works 748 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:38,040 Speaker 2: of the Lord of Lords. That additional remedy is like 749 00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:41,920 Speaker 2: a special extra dose of holiness that should be applied 750 00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:46,120 Speaker 2: if the cause of the horse's pain is injury by 751 00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:48,880 Speaker 2: an elf, though it doesn't explain how you tell the 752 00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:52,680 Speaker 2: difference between normal bad pain and bad pain caused by 753 00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,479 Speaker 2: an elf. You know, of course, the elf injury being 754 00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:59,600 Speaker 2: even more unholy and requiring more holiness or or more 755 00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:01,400 Speaker 2: piet in order to undo. 756 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:03,759 Speaker 1: Either way you shake it. From a modern perspective, it's 757 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:08,000 Speaker 1: a lot of cutting and striking of a pained horse. 758 00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:11,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, jeez, you feel bad for the horse. 759 00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:14,440 Speaker 1: You know. Now, as we as we go to close 760 00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:16,920 Speaker 1: out this look at Elfshot, I did want to come 761 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,479 Speaker 1: back to some basic questions, some of which we've already 762 00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:24,319 Speaker 1: got into, concerning the archaeology of elf Shot. Who were 763 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:26,879 Speaker 1: the people who made these artifacts, and how did they 764 00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:29,480 Speaker 1: get to the regions where the artifacts were found, and 765 00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:32,640 Speaker 1: then of course, you know, interpreted and reinterpreted within these 766 00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:36,000 Speaker 1: folkloric traditions. This, of course, is a broad question because 767 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:39,640 Speaker 1: as we've mentioned already, we're talking about multiple areas. We're 768 00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:42,600 Speaker 1: talking about locations throughout the British Isles and even outside 769 00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:45,360 Speaker 1: of the British Isles. But just limiting the question of 770 00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:47,520 Speaker 1: the British Isles, we're still looking at close to a 771 00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:52,280 Speaker 1: million years of occupation by various human species, including Neanderthals. 772 00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:55,480 Speaker 1: And as for the how they got there, the predominant 773 00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:58,839 Speaker 1: theories involved land bridges between Europe and Britain that were 774 00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:03,360 Speaker 1: president at the time. And regarding Ireland, I've seen hypotheses 775 00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:08,359 Speaker 1: that involve boats, land bridges and also ice bridges. But 776 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:10,400 Speaker 1: just to give a few examples that really sort of 777 00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:14,319 Speaker 1: drive home the times we're talking about here, there are 778 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:18,080 Speaker 1: stone tool and footprints in Norfolk that date back and 779 00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:21,759 Speaker 1: estimated nine hundred thousand years and these would be the 780 00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:27,319 Speaker 1: work and or the footprints of Homo antecessor. Notable here 781 00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:30,800 Speaker 1: are the Happisburg footprints in Norfolk, and also a black 782 00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:34,040 Speaker 1: flint hand axe was also found in this area. So 783 00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:38,680 Speaker 1: Homo antecessor they were makers of simple stone tools, and 784 00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,560 Speaker 1: it looks like many experts think that they might not 785 00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:46,960 Speaker 1: have had mastery of fire. By four thousand BCE, Neolithic 786 00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:50,040 Speaker 1: culture was firmly established on the British Isles and lasted 787 00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:53,560 Speaker 1: till roughly it's just you know, the rough time period 788 00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:57,640 Speaker 1: of our histories two thousand, five hundred BCE and of 789 00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:01,799 Speaker 1: course between three thousand BCE in two thousand BCE, we 790 00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:05,600 Speaker 1: see the construction of Stonehinge, one of course the most famous, 791 00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,839 Speaker 1: if not the most famous testament to prehistoric Britain. And 792 00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:12,040 Speaker 1: of course even Stone Hinge gets wrapped up into various folklore, 793 00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:17,680 Speaker 1: traditions and folkloric interpretations and reinterpretations that involve at times 794 00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:23,080 Speaker 1: the wizard Merlin, but also the Christian devil, and even 795 00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,920 Speaker 1: during the Roman period which would have been roughly forty 796 00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:30,400 Speaker 1: three CE to four ten CE, the Roman sky god Kalus. 797 00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:34,719 Speaker 1: More realistically, or more on the sort of realistic interpretation 798 00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:38,440 Speaker 1: and reinterpretation standpoint, it was at one point thought to 799 00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:42,400 Speaker 1: be credited to the work of Druidic culture, but this 800 00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,840 Speaker 1: culture didn't exist till three hundred BCE, which would have 801 00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:48,560 Speaker 1: been too late, so the stones were already ancient history 802 00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:52,600 Speaker 1: to the Druids. Now, another example that I found really 803 00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:57,839 Speaker 1: interesting talking about found arrowheads in the British Isles. In 804 00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:01,680 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, archaeologists from the University of Reading discovered a 805 00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:05,200 Speaker 1: four thy five hundred year old flint arrowhead a few 806 00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:08,880 Speaker 1: miles from Stonehenge, and according to David Dawson, director of 807 00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:14,080 Speaker 1: the Wiltshire Museum, this particular arrowhead is not only finally preserved, 808 00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:19,280 Speaker 1: but incredibly fragile, suggesting that it was never actually intended 809 00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:22,280 Speaker 1: for use in war or hunting, but it was rather 810 00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:27,719 Speaker 1: ceremonial or decorative and or decorative this was. You can 811 00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:29,960 Speaker 1: look up images of this. There were some news articles 812 00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:32,760 Speaker 1: of the time. The arrowhead was unearthed in two parts, 813 00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:36,839 Speaker 1: two different digs, five years apart. And it is quite 814 00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:40,239 Speaker 1: eloguant looking. It has like one it has barbs, but 815 00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:44,240 Speaker 1: one really long barb and elongated barb on one side. 816 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:45,759 Speaker 1: So I don't know about you, but I find that 817 00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,120 Speaker 1: really interesting because I think it's easy to think of 818 00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:52,360 Speaker 1: folkloric interpretation of found objects to be a luxury of 819 00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:56,480 Speaker 1: later civilizations on the British Isles, to think supernaturally about 820 00:46:56,800 --> 00:46:59,319 Speaker 1: about these about these items. But certainly, and certainly there 821 00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:01,560 Speaker 1: was a lot we don't know about concerning pre Roman 822 00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,760 Speaker 1: and prehistoric Britain. But even forty five hundred years ago, 823 00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:10,160 Speaker 1: this find would suggest that people here were already capable 824 00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:14,839 Speaker 1: of sublime interpretations and perhaps mystical meanings for their own 825 00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:19,600 Speaker 1: created artifacts. That you could have this sacred arrow that 826 00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,839 Speaker 1: wasn't found, that was made, but some of the same 827 00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:27,960 Speaker 1: energy that goes into the interpretation of these artifacts, you know, 828 00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:31,200 Speaker 1: thousands of years later, was already present in the cultures 829 00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:32,960 Speaker 1: that made their home here. 830 00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:34,799 Speaker 2: Right, And so we don't know what it would have 831 00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:37,080 Speaker 2: been used for, but it's clear that it would not 832 00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:40,799 Speaker 2: have been useful for actual shooting of an arrow. So 833 00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:45,680 Speaker 2: you know, it could be decorative, it could be medicinal, 834 00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:48,799 Speaker 2: some kind of amulet. It could be magical or ceremonial. 835 00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:50,520 Speaker 2: We don't know, but in any case, it would be 836 00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:55,040 Speaker 2: a symbolic arrowhead rather than one used for the literal, 837 00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:56,520 Speaker 2: direct mundane purpose. 838 00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:00,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so you can imagine at some point in 839 00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:05,600 Speaker 1: history after this point if someone were to find an 840 00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:08,399 Speaker 1: arrow had like this, especially, I mean any arrow had 841 00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:12,920 Speaker 1: obviously any kind of novel lump of stone could find 842 00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:17,200 Speaker 1: itself interpreted as an elf arrow and incorporated into elf 843 00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:21,200 Speaker 1: shot folklore. But imagine if you found this, you know, 844 00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:25,200 Speaker 1: clearly an arrow that looks too fine to be shot. 845 00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:28,839 Speaker 1: You know, that's almost ephemeral in its construction, Like who 846 00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:31,719 Speaker 1: would make this? Why would they make this? Clearly this 847 00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:34,640 Speaker 1: is the work of the elves. But also I think 848 00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:38,520 Speaker 1: it's just yeah, it's just worth remembering the deep history 849 00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:42,120 Speaker 1: of people on the British Isles. You know, it might 850 00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:45,080 Speaker 1: not be as deep as some other areas, Like you know, 851 00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:46,960 Speaker 1: you're looking at what in France. I think it's what 852 00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:49,080 Speaker 1: one point fifty seven million years ago. We have some 853 00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:52,320 Speaker 1: of the earliest known evidence of human beings. But still 854 00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:58,920 Speaker 1: you have human species on the British Isles as early 855 00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:02,400 Speaker 1: as almost a million years ago, different species, different cultures, 856 00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:06,840 Speaker 1: different waves of technology and arrivals in the subsequent centuries 857 00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:11,319 Speaker 1: and millennium millennia, and of course different waves of interpretation 858 00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:16,080 Speaker 1: and reinterpretation of what came before. All right, we're going 859 00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:17,680 Speaker 1: to go ahead and close it out there, but obviously 860 00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:19,840 Speaker 1: we'd love to hear from everyone out there. We'd especially 861 00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:23,400 Speaker 1: love to hear from folks listening to the show on 862 00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:26,000 Speaker 1: the British Isles, or folks who have spent time on 863 00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:29,120 Speaker 1: the British Isles. Perhaps you have some tidbits some local 864 00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:31,239 Speaker 1: lore to share with us. If so, we'd love to 865 00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:34,000 Speaker 1: hear from you. A reminder that Stuff to Blow Your 866 00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:37,640 Speaker 1: Mind is a primarily a science podcast that publishes on 867 00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:39,919 Speaker 1: Tuesdays and Thursdays and the Stuff to Blow Your Mind 868 00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:43,160 Speaker 1: podcast feed, but on Mondays we do a listener mail 869 00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:48,000 Speaker 1: episode where we read various missives from our listeners. On 870 00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:50,760 Speaker 1: Wednesdays we do a short form artifact or monster fact. 871 00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:53,839 Speaker 1: On Fridays we do Weird House Cinema. That's our time 872 00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:56,960 Speaker 1: to set aside most serious concerns and just talk about 873 00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:57,800 Speaker 1: a weird film. 874 00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:01,200 Speaker 2: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth 875 00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:03,799 Speaker 2: Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get in touch 876 00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:06,200 Speaker 2: with us with feedback on this episode or any other, 877 00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:08,480 Speaker 2: to suggest a topic for the future, or just to 878 00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:11,440 Speaker 2: say hello, you can email us at contact stuff to 879 00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:19,239 Speaker 2: Blow your Mind dot com. 880 00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:23,400 Speaker 3: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 881 00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:26,279 Speaker 3: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 882 00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:42,320 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.