WEBVTT - How to Thrive at Work 0:00:15.516 --> 0:00:23.116 Pushkin. This special episode of the Happiness Lab is brought 0:00:23.116 --> 0:00:26.396 to you by State Farm. Like a good neighbor, State 0:00:26.436 --> 0:00:33.316 Farm is there. If you have a job, it's entirely 0:00:33.356 --> 0:00:35.916 possible that you spend more waking hours at work than 0:00:35.956 --> 0:00:38.596 doing anything else in your life, more time than you 0:00:38.676 --> 0:00:41.676 spend with your family or enjoying your hobbies, or kicking 0:00:41.716 --> 0:00:45.116 back and relaxing. Work is a big part of our lives, 0:00:45.356 --> 0:00:47.636 but aside from just paying the bills, our job can 0:00:47.676 --> 0:00:51.116 give us purpose fulfillment and a sense of belonging. One 0:00:51.156 --> 0:00:55.116 survey by the American Psychological Association found that ninety two 0:00:55.156 --> 0:00:58.236 percent of us think that our workplaces should actively support 0:00:58.236 --> 0:01:01.156 our emotional well being. But that same survey found that 0:01:01.196 --> 0:01:04.556 one in five of us describe our workplace as being toxic. 0:01:05.716 --> 0:01:08.796 And what makes a job toxic, according to that survey, 0:01:09.116 --> 0:01:14.156 those things like bullying, overwork, discrimination, and even loneliness. It's 0:01:14.196 --> 0:01:16.916 therefore no surprise that this year's World Mental Health Day 0:01:17.356 --> 0:01:20.076 was devoted to the idea of wellness in the workplace, 0:01:20.876 --> 0:01:22.996 and so in the last of our special World Mental 0:01:22.996 --> 0:01:25.756 Health Day shows, we're going to look at some recommendations 0:01:25.796 --> 0:01:29.196 to improve our happiness at work. Joining me again is 0:01:29.276 --> 0:01:32.916 Dan Harris. You probably already know Dan from his podcast 0:01:32.996 --> 0:01:35.676 ten Percent Happier, but you should also check out the 0:01:35.716 --> 0:01:40.716 fabulous new community he's developing at Dan harris dot com. 0:01:40.836 --> 0:01:43.636 Aside from being a Titan of Happiness, Dan also has 0:01:43.716 --> 0:01:47.236 lots of workplace experiences to draw from. For our conversation today, 0:01:48.556 --> 0:01:50.356 I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. 0:01:54.396 --> 0:01:55.716 One of the reasons I wanted to talk to you 0:01:55.796 --> 0:01:57.956 is that it seems like work is just gonna be 0:01:58.196 --> 0:02:01.396 hard necessarily. There's like some situations at work that are 0:02:01.436 --> 0:02:03.796 just naturally going to be hard. And one of the 0:02:03.836 --> 0:02:06.316 techniques I know I've learned a lot from your work 0:02:06.316 --> 0:02:10.156 on mindfulness is just this idea of like not fleeing 0:02:10.196 --> 0:02:12.316 from the hard, or it may be a better way 0:02:12.316 --> 0:02:14.436 to put it, is sort of radically accepting the hard. 0:02:14.956 --> 0:02:17.356 And so what is radical acceptance? And why can it 0:02:17.356 --> 0:02:19.916 be so helpful when we're experiencing stress at work? 0:02:20.316 --> 0:02:22.756 Yeah, just to say in an overarching sense of for me, 0:02:23.036 --> 0:02:25.916 one of the biggest sources of stress and anxiety and 0:02:25.956 --> 0:02:29.996 suffering has been work. Not to be overly gloomy about this, 0:02:30.036 --> 0:02:32.236 I mean work its also been the source of so 0:02:32.316 --> 0:02:36.076 much purpose and meaning and joy and connection and so 0:02:36.156 --> 0:02:40.956 it's complicated. But to answer the question you actually asked me, 0:02:41.516 --> 0:02:46.716 it's so counterintuitive because stress is unpleasant. So you know, 0:02:47.276 --> 0:02:51.236 you want to self medicate with food or gambling or 0:02:51.316 --> 0:02:54.156 TikTok or whatever it is. You want to push it away, 0:02:54.476 --> 0:02:57.596 But that doesn't really work. It can work a little bit, 0:02:57.636 --> 0:03:01.756 you know, obviously we need stress relief. But honestly, the 0:03:02.356 --> 0:03:05.076 one of the great mechanisms, or one of the great 0:03:05.076 --> 0:03:07.556 ways to think about this, is that the only way 0:03:07.596 --> 0:03:12.396 out is through to feel the difficult feelings instead of 0:03:12.476 --> 0:03:13.556 letting them own you. 0:03:13.676 --> 0:03:14.356 And there are. 0:03:14.196 --> 0:03:17.356 Lots of ways to do this. For me, mindfulness meditation 0:03:17.556 --> 0:03:20.756 is a great way. I'll just briefly describe it. There 0:03:20.796 --> 0:03:23.636 are really only three steps for beginning mindfulness meditation. The 0:03:23.676 --> 0:03:26.796 first is to sit comfortably and close your eyes. I 0:03:26.836 --> 0:03:28.716 sit on a chair. You don't have to get into 0:03:28.756 --> 0:03:31.796 the lotus position. The second step is to bring your 0:03:31.796 --> 0:03:36.316 full attention to something neutral. Often it's your breath coming 0:03:36.356 --> 0:03:38.156 in and going out. Some people don't like the breath, 0:03:38.156 --> 0:03:39.996 so you can just pick the feeling of your body 0:03:40.036 --> 0:03:42.636 sitting in the chair, or sounds in the environment. Just 0:03:42.676 --> 0:03:45.036 picking something based in one of your senses that gets 0:03:45.036 --> 0:03:47.316 you out of the spinning thoughts in your head and 0:03:47.436 --> 0:03:53.676 into some sense based object of meditation. That's a technical term. Basically, 0:03:53.756 --> 0:03:56.316 it's the thing you're focusing on, your object. And then 0:03:56.356 --> 0:03:59.956 the third step is the most important, which is very quickly. 0:03:59.996 --> 0:04:00.876 As soon as you try. 0:04:00.756 --> 0:04:02.996 To feel your breath coming in and going out, you're 0:04:03.116 --> 0:04:06.276 likely to get distracted a lot. And this is the 0:04:06.316 --> 0:04:09.836 moment when many people tell themselves this story that they're 0:04:10.036 --> 0:04:13.196 failed meditators. But actually my job on the planet is 0:04:13.236 --> 0:04:16.756 to reframe this moment as success. The whole point of 0:04:16.796 --> 0:04:20.036 meditation is not to feel some specific way or to 0:04:20.156 --> 0:04:23.516 stop thinking to clear your mind. The point is to 0:04:23.876 --> 0:04:27.836 become familiar with how wild the mind is, so that 0:04:27.996 --> 0:04:30.636 the chaos and cacophony doesn't own you as much. So 0:04:30.676 --> 0:04:33.436 that's what the practice is. The sit try to focus 0:04:33.436 --> 0:04:35.996 on one thing very quickly, you'll get carried away and 0:04:36.076 --> 0:04:38.876 you start again and again and again. It's like a 0:04:38.916 --> 0:04:42.116 bicep curl for your brain, and it really changes the 0:04:42.116 --> 0:04:44.956 structure of the brain. It's so interesting that this is 0:04:45.196 --> 0:04:47.716 something that is available to us. It's such a radical 0:04:47.756 --> 0:04:50.996 notion that we can have a different relationship to our 0:04:51.036 --> 0:04:55.556 thoughts and emotions, and so to me, this simple but 0:04:55.596 --> 0:04:59.916 not easy practice is a great way to learn how 0:04:59.916 --> 0:05:04.716 to get comfortable with our inner meteorology, you know, our 0:05:04.756 --> 0:05:07.476 inner storms, so that they don't own us as much. 0:05:07.716 --> 0:05:10.756 And so let's say your inner storm is really kind 0:05:10.756 --> 0:05:12.876 of feeling like it's owning you because your stress at 0:05:12.916 --> 0:05:16.236 work has just gone like through the roof. I was 0:05:16.276 --> 0:05:17.916 just talking to a friend of mine, this's having a 0:05:17.916 --> 0:05:20.596 really difficult time at work, and she talked about how, 0:05:20.956 --> 0:05:23.636 you know, working out as much as I possibly can, 0:05:23.676 --> 0:05:25.476 and I'm trying to engage in, you know, the best 0:05:25.476 --> 0:05:27.956 sleep hygiene. Although I think we'll talk later about strategies 0:05:27.956 --> 0:05:30.876 we can use to do that better. But like I 0:05:31.036 --> 0:05:33.836 just am simmering when I leave the office. I'm just 0:05:33.916 --> 0:05:36.876 like hating work. So she's going to sit down and 0:05:36.916 --> 0:05:39.236 she's going to meditate. What does she do with all 0:05:39.236 --> 0:05:41.516 those simmering feelings? What's the advice there? 0:05:41.596 --> 0:05:44.116 Well, just to say it is very common. I've had 0:05:44.116 --> 0:05:47.516 this feeling many times. I remember in my twenty one 0:05:47.596 --> 0:05:49.756 years at working of working at ABC News, I would 0:05:49.796 --> 0:05:53.196 have this experience often of leaving there. There was a 0:05:53.956 --> 0:05:55.876 our office was in the Upper West side of Manhattan. 0:05:55.916 --> 0:05:58.036 There was a main entrance on sixty sixth Street and 0:05:58.076 --> 0:06:00.076 a back entrance on sixty seventh and I used to 0:06:00.196 --> 0:06:04.356 take that exit, and it's a very leafy upper West 0:06:04.396 --> 0:06:06.796 side street. I used to take that exit and walk 0:06:06.876 --> 0:06:09.116 to the apartment where that I shared with my now wife, 0:06:09.516 --> 0:06:13.436 And I remember having this thought every time I left 0:06:13.476 --> 0:06:14.996 and walked down this beautiful street. 0:06:16.036 --> 0:06:21.356 What was I so upset about? Why did I spend 0:06:21.356 --> 0:06:24.276 this whole day in agony? Like what is going on? 0:06:24.596 --> 0:06:27.996 And so I really relate to this experience your friend 0:06:28.116 --> 0:06:30.276 is having. And I don't want to say that meditation 0:06:30.396 --> 0:06:33.036 is some sort of panacea. I'm not a meditation bully. 0:06:33.236 --> 0:06:35.196 I think it's one of many options, and we'll talk 0:06:35.196 --> 0:06:37.556 about a bunch of options. But how it can work 0:06:37.596 --> 0:06:41.676 if you feel like doing it is that well. First 0:06:41.716 --> 0:06:43.956 of all, I find it such a relief because it's 0:06:44.036 --> 0:06:46.316 this dedicated period of time and it doesn't have to 0:06:46.396 --> 0:06:46.796 be long. 0:06:46.996 --> 0:06:48.436 It could be a minute, two minutes. 0:06:48.836 --> 0:06:51.036 I tend to do a little bit longer twenty thirty, 0:06:51.076 --> 0:06:54.636 forty minutes, but I'm like a semi professional. But it's 0:06:54.676 --> 0:06:58.116 this one concentrated period of time where you don't have 0:06:58.196 --> 0:07:01.596 to take your thoughts that seriously, and that is such 0:07:01.636 --> 0:07:05.316 a relief. Over and over and over, you're sitting trying 0:07:05.316 --> 0:07:07.356 to focus on something like the feeling of your breath 0:07:07.396 --> 0:07:09.876 coming in and going out, and then you're ambushed by 0:07:09.916 --> 0:07:14.596 all the simmering. But you know your job is to 0:07:14.716 --> 0:07:17.556 eventually wake up. You might get carried away for a minute, 0:07:17.556 --> 0:07:20.516 two minutes, three minutes with a whole session, but eventually 0:07:20.956 --> 0:07:23.636 it's gonna end, and you're gonna wake up and realize, oh, 0:07:24.036 --> 0:07:27.876 this is just a set of thoughts with accompanying physical 0:07:27.916 --> 0:07:32.036 sensations that I can get increasingly familiar with, but they 0:07:32.076 --> 0:07:37.116 aren't facts. One of the great expressions that my meditation 0:07:37.196 --> 0:07:41.516 teacher Joseph Goldstein has is pretend your thoughts are coming 0:07:41.556 --> 0:07:44.556 from the guy next to you, or from somebody you 0:07:44.596 --> 0:07:46.596 know in the apartment across the way, or from the 0:07:46.676 --> 0:07:47.716 cat that lean in the corner. 0:07:47.796 --> 0:07:48.076 Whatever. 0:07:48.636 --> 0:07:54.036 These thoughts, which have so much control over us, are actually, 0:07:54.156 --> 0:07:58.476 as Joseph says, little more than nothing. Unexamined, they they 0:07:58.516 --> 0:08:00.956 blot out the sun. We believe them as facts, but 0:08:01.116 --> 0:08:05.236 examined for what they are, they have way less power. 0:08:05.596 --> 0:08:08.236 And so that's how sitting for me that at least 0:08:08.236 --> 0:08:10.676 in my life. That's how sitting with the simmering can work. 0:08:10.956 --> 0:08:13.956 Doesn't fix the objective facts of the situation. It can 0:08:14.036 --> 0:08:16.756 change your relationship to those facts. And by the way, 0:08:16.796 --> 0:08:19.076 the facts may not be so factual. 0:08:19.436 --> 0:08:21.516 Yeah, and I think sometimes we can see that through 0:08:21.556 --> 0:08:24.516 practices like meditation. I think they're for folks who struggle 0:08:24.516 --> 0:08:26.956 with meditation. There are also other techniques we can use 0:08:26.996 --> 0:08:29.956 to do that. I'm really taken by this idea of 0:08:29.956 --> 0:08:32.716 cognitive diffusion, which are all these funny ways to kind 0:08:32.756 --> 0:08:35.436 of see your thoughts as separate. I've heard a recent one, 0:08:35.476 --> 0:08:38.076 which is to take the most annoying pop song that 0:08:38.156 --> 0:08:41.716 gets stuck in your head and then sing your thoughts 0:08:41.876 --> 0:08:45.716 to that song, which is or to watch your thoughts 0:08:45.756 --> 0:08:48.236 on big Star Wars fan watch your thoughts kind of 0:08:48.516 --> 0:08:51.036 scrolling up like the text of Star Wars, so it's 0:08:51.116 --> 0:08:53.756 kind of going away. Yes, I mean, it seems like 0:08:53.756 --> 0:08:55.756 those techniques are doing exactly the kind of thing you're 0:08:55.796 --> 0:08:58.156 talking about with meditation, right, which is that you get 0:08:58.156 --> 0:09:00.636 some distance from them you can sort of see them 0:09:00.756 --> 0:09:04.676 as thoughts. But another way that meditation in particular, I 0:09:04.676 --> 0:09:07.196 maybe even more so than cognitive diffusion, can be helpful, 0:09:07.516 --> 0:09:10.076 I think, is to give some space to the simmering 0:09:10.116 --> 0:09:11.836 part that has to do less with the thoughts and 0:09:11.876 --> 0:09:15.996 more with the emotions. Right. I know my friend from 0:09:16.036 --> 0:09:19.116 dealing with these job struggles as a whole host of 0:09:19.236 --> 0:09:22.436 sets of frustration and a shed of shame that she's 0:09:22.516 --> 0:09:24.756 kind of so pissed off at her job, and like 0:09:24.796 --> 0:09:27.476 a kind of uncertainty. Right, the sort of scarcity mindset 0:09:27.476 --> 0:09:29.476 that you and I talked about in the last episode. 0:09:29.716 --> 0:09:32.796 There's just a whole host of yunky emotions that come 0:09:32.876 --> 0:09:35.796 when you're experiencing some troubles at work. How can the 0:09:35.796 --> 0:09:37.996 practice of sitting with these emotions. 0:09:37.436 --> 0:09:41.116 Be really helpful because in your. 0:09:41.996 --> 0:09:43.636 Investigation of the emotion. 0:09:43.876 --> 0:09:46.556 In other words, so you sit and you try to 0:09:46.556 --> 0:09:49.196 feel your breath and then you get overtaken by this 0:09:49.636 --> 0:09:52.836 blast of anger or regret or shame or whatever it is. 0:09:53.356 --> 0:09:55.716 And then in that moment, the move is instead of 0:09:55.716 --> 0:09:57.916 going back to the breath, just take a look at like, 0:09:58.036 --> 0:10:01.396 what's happening? What is this thing I'm calling anger? So 0:10:01.436 --> 0:10:03.596 it's a bunch of thoughts, but it's also maybe a 0:10:03.596 --> 0:10:07.476 burning in my chest, some heat in my ears, heaviness 0:10:07.516 --> 0:10:12.476 in my forehead, kind of taking with a seemingly solid, 0:10:12.636 --> 0:10:16.716 monolithic thing called anger and putting it through a cheese grater. 0:10:17.236 --> 0:10:22.276 Because you're picking it apart, you're disambiguating the constituent parts 0:10:22.276 --> 0:10:25.356 of the anger, and in this way it doesn't have 0:10:25.436 --> 0:10:28.036 as much power. You can actually see And now I'm 0:10:28.036 --> 0:10:30.276 going to get a little bit mystical with you here, 0:10:30.636 --> 0:10:35.636 but you can see that to call it your anger is, 0:10:35.876 --> 0:10:40.636 in the words of one great Buddhist monk, a misappropriation 0:10:40.716 --> 0:10:41.676 of public property. 0:10:42.036 --> 0:10:43.396 It isn't your anger. 0:10:44.036 --> 0:10:47.196 Another way to think about this, and this comes again 0:10:47.236 --> 0:10:50.996 from the aforementioned Joseph Goldstein. A little linguistic trick you 0:10:51.076 --> 0:10:54.116 can run is instead of saying I'm angry, you can 0:10:54.196 --> 0:10:58.076 say there is anger. You don't own any anger. Look 0:10:58.116 --> 0:11:00.316 close your eyes and look for anything you own in there. 0:11:00.436 --> 0:11:03.356 There's nothing you own. You are just a process, right, 0:11:03.556 --> 0:11:06.676 And so anger is a passing storm and you don't 0:11:06.676 --> 0:11:09.836 have to identify so deeply with it. You can see 0:11:09.876 --> 0:11:14.716 it as again to meteorological phenomenon that is playing out internally. 0:11:15.116 --> 0:11:17.356 And please tell me if this is making any sense. 0:11:17.356 --> 0:11:19.356 But this is how this is how I relate to 0:11:19.396 --> 0:11:19.676 all of it. 0:11:19.916 --> 0:11:21.556 Yeah, I mean, I think you're pointing out two ways 0:11:21.596 --> 0:11:24.636 that sort of sitting with our emotions can be really helpful, right. 0:11:24.676 --> 0:11:26.796 One is kind of getting distance from the fact that 0:11:26.836 --> 0:11:29.516 they're you. There's just something that exists. But the second 0:11:29.516 --> 0:11:31.756 part is this idea of it as a process, right, 0:11:32.116 --> 0:11:35.396 that it is changing in times when I've kind of 0:11:35.556 --> 0:11:37.836 really tried to sit with certain emotions of mine. I 0:11:37.836 --> 0:11:39.716 did this recently with something I was experiencing a lot 0:11:39.756 --> 0:11:41.676 of sadness about, and I'm like, as much as I 0:11:41.756 --> 0:11:43.956 really deeply don't want to sit with this sadness, which 0:11:43.996 --> 0:11:46.756 is like sit with the sadness, and when you start, 0:11:46.916 --> 0:11:49.076 it can feel so intense. You feel like this is 0:11:49.276 --> 0:11:52.076 always going to feel this bad and this intense and 0:11:52.116 --> 0:11:55.436 this painful. And then like within four minutes of meditation, 0:11:55.556 --> 0:11:57.276 my mind is wandering off to other stuff. But I 0:11:57.356 --> 0:11:59.116 quickly come back and notice like, oh wait, I'm not 0:11:59.276 --> 0:12:02.156 experiencing the sadness as as sad anymore. My brain is 0:12:02.196 --> 0:12:05.276 like in its stream moved on to something equally stupid 0:12:05.316 --> 0:12:07.716 and made me rumutative, but it's not the sadness anymore. 0:12:08.036 --> 0:12:10.236 And then I have this moment sort of shockle like, 0:12:10.476 --> 0:12:12.476 well that's weird. Like a few seconds ago, I thought 0:12:12.476 --> 0:12:14.716 this was going to stick around forever. And so I 0:12:14.716 --> 0:12:16.636 think that's the kind of thing that I often get 0:12:16.676 --> 0:12:18.916 out of It is less the kind of making sure 0:12:18.956 --> 0:12:21.196 the anger is that sadness or whatever it's not me, 0:12:21.316 --> 0:12:24.316 because I struggle with that to kind of seem that 0:12:24.396 --> 0:12:26.436 it's not part of me. But maybe I should use 0:12:26.436 --> 0:12:28.836 this technique of there is sadness as opposed to I'm 0:12:28.836 --> 0:12:31.876 super sad right now. But what I do often is 0:12:31.956 --> 0:12:34.996 experience is like, oh, this was not nearly as permanent 0:12:35.076 --> 0:12:36.956 as I assumed this would be, This was not nearly 0:12:37.036 --> 0:12:39.556 as intractable as I assumed it would be, and that 0:12:39.756 --> 0:12:41.236 that part's been really helpful for me. 0:12:41.356 --> 0:12:43.556 That makes complete sense. And just to say, I think 0:12:43.796 --> 0:12:45.556 something that you and I have in common is we'll 0:12:45.596 --> 0:12:47.756 just throw lots of tools out there at people, and 0:12:47.916 --> 0:12:50.156 as I often say, like view it as a menu, 0:12:50.276 --> 0:12:52.956 not a to do list. Take what resonates with you 0:12:53.036 --> 0:12:56.196 and abandon what doesn't. And just to emphasize what you 0:12:56.196 --> 0:12:59.916 were saying, a less esoteric or mystical way to see 0:12:59.956 --> 0:13:04.036 the benefits of tuning into your difficult emotions is that 0:13:04.156 --> 0:13:07.316 they will pass and there's a lot of relief on 0:13:07.356 --> 0:13:08.236 the other side of that. 0:13:08.356 --> 0:13:10.236 Can I jump into an other tool in the toolkit 0:13:10.276 --> 0:13:12.676 that I know you've talked about, a technique that I 0:13:12.756 --> 0:13:15.836 know you've talked about as in terms of knowing your motivation, 0:13:16.356 --> 0:13:18.236 which I think can be especially helpful when things on 0:13:18.276 --> 0:13:21.196 the job seem just like overwhelming, you're not even sure 0:13:21.236 --> 0:13:24.036 why you work there anymore. So what is knowing your motivation? 0:13:24.396 --> 0:13:26.236 And what are some ways that we can engage in 0:13:26.236 --> 0:13:27.036 that technique? 0:13:27.396 --> 0:13:31.116 To me, this is huge and very interested after I 0:13:31.156 --> 0:13:34.396 say a few words to hear what if any science 0:13:34.436 --> 0:13:36.796 there is on this. And I'll just say from the beginning, 0:13:36.916 --> 0:13:40.596 like under, the idea of like having an intention always 0:13:40.636 --> 0:13:44.156 struck me as pretty treacly or saccharin or just didn't 0:13:44.156 --> 0:13:44.796 speak to me. 0:13:45.276 --> 0:13:47.396 And yet you know, I'm very. 0:13:47.236 --> 0:13:50.876 Definitely, deeply influenced by the Buddhist tradition or the many 0:13:50.916 --> 0:13:55.476 Buddhist traditions, and there's a lot about setting an intention 0:13:56.156 --> 0:14:00.356 in your mind, getting clear on what your motivations are, 0:14:00.556 --> 0:14:03.876 like what matters most to you as a north star 0:14:04.036 --> 0:14:07.516 that can keep you going through the inevitable ups and 0:14:07.596 --> 0:14:10.436 downs of life. And so I've spent a decent amount 0:14:10.436 --> 0:14:13.156 of time in recent years thinking about so like, what's 0:14:13.316 --> 0:14:15.236 my job. So when I wake up in the morning, 0:14:15.316 --> 0:14:17.796 I do this thing that if you told me fifteen 0:14:17.876 --> 0:14:19.036 years ago I was going to do this thing, I 0:14:19.036 --> 0:14:21.036 would have, you know, coughed my beer up through my nose. 0:14:21.076 --> 0:14:22.836 But I have this little thing I say to myself, 0:14:22.836 --> 0:14:25.836 which is my job is to make awesome shit that 0:14:25.956 --> 0:14:28.836 helps people do their lives better, and to work on 0:14:28.876 --> 0:14:31.636 the relationships in my life, including my relationship with myself. 0:14:32.196 --> 0:14:36.396 Those are my jobs, and to try to remind myself 0:14:36.436 --> 0:14:38.196 as much as possible. 0:14:38.396 --> 0:14:39.476 That that's the goal. 0:14:39.916 --> 0:14:43.236 So if my latest Instagram post didn't perform, or if 0:14:43.236 --> 0:14:46.756 my podcast numbers are dropping off, or you know, I 0:14:46.756 --> 0:14:48.916 gave a talk and it didn't go that well, or 0:14:48.956 --> 0:14:52.116 somebody I feel competitive with is kicking ass or whatever, 0:14:52.516 --> 0:14:56.116 I can maybe not be so stuck in that stuff 0:14:56.156 --> 0:15:01.116 and instead remember, like what matters. Really, the hardest part 0:15:01.156 --> 0:15:04.356 of this, even harder than figuring out what matters to you, 0:15:04.676 --> 0:15:07.076 is to remember what matters to you and so to 0:15:07.156 --> 0:15:08.356 not get so stuck in it. 0:15:08.396 --> 0:15:11.516 And so you have ways to remind yourself. 0:15:11.836 --> 0:15:13.556 And one of the things that I've done that's rather 0:15:13.636 --> 0:15:16.196 extreme is to get a tattoo on my wrist right 0:15:16.236 --> 0:15:18.756 next to my watch, so that I'm looking down at 0:15:18.756 --> 0:15:23.436 my wrist all the time and I'm seeing these letters ftboab, 0:15:23.956 --> 0:15:27.036 which is pretty off brand for me in its earnestness, 0:15:27.556 --> 0:15:30.436 but it stands for and this is a Buddhist phrase 0:15:30.676 --> 0:15:33.436 for the benefit of all beings. That's my job everything 0:15:33.476 --> 0:15:35.836 I do. Every time I brush my teeth, every time 0:15:35.836 --> 0:15:37.996 I take a nap, every time I meditate, every time 0:15:38.516 --> 0:15:39.796 I do a podcast like this. 0:15:40.436 --> 0:15:40.516 That. 0:15:41.556 --> 0:15:43.836 Yeah, I have all sorts of craven motivations that are 0:15:43.876 --> 0:15:47.876 absolutely still in there, one of them. But I as 0:15:48.156 --> 0:15:50.276 much in my life as I've told myself a story 0:15:50.276 --> 0:15:54.036 about how I'm like inherently rotten, even I have altruism 0:15:54.076 --> 0:15:58.076 in me, and I want to nurture that aspect of 0:15:58.076 --> 0:16:01.476 my inner repertoire. And so to remind myself over and 0:16:01.516 --> 0:16:04.676 over and over again it really helps me through the 0:16:04.916 --> 0:16:08.716 ups and downs of work. So is anything I'm saying 0:16:08.716 --> 0:16:10.476 like base in actual evidence? 0:16:10.996 --> 0:16:12.996 Oh yeah, tons of it. I mean, first, is this 0:16:13.076 --> 0:16:16.676 idea that you're turning to your purpose like a greater purpose, right, 0:16:17.076 --> 0:16:20.716 And there's just been tons of work in positive psychology 0:16:20.756 --> 0:16:24.116 about the power of having a purpose, having a life purpose, 0:16:24.156 --> 0:16:26.716 having that kind of bigger intention, and in some ways 0:16:26.756 --> 0:16:29.716 like it doesn't fully matter what the purpose is, it's 0:16:29.796 --> 0:16:31.756 just that you kind of see it as having one. 0:16:32.356 --> 0:16:35.076 It also seems like you build in various kinds of 0:16:35.156 --> 0:16:38.076 rituals and practices to remember this. Because I thought you 0:16:38.076 --> 0:16:39.516 were going to say the hardest part is sort of, 0:16:39.836 --> 0:16:42.316 you know, kind of remembering to do it every day 0:16:42.476 --> 0:16:44.796 right where you have to kind of do it every morning. 0:16:44.836 --> 0:16:46.756 You've kind of put together these sort of tattoos that 0:16:46.836 --> 0:16:48.796 allow you to remember to do it. Every time you 0:16:48.796 --> 0:16:50.836 see it, You're like, oh, yeah, purpose. I thought it 0:16:50.916 --> 0:16:52.996 was just my Instagram numbers, but nope, it was actually, 0:16:53.116 --> 0:16:54.716 you know, for the benefit of all beings. That's why 0:16:54.756 --> 0:16:56.636 I was doing it. So I think like the fact 0:16:56.676 --> 0:16:59.236 that you have this purpose is really important and meaningful. 0:16:59.436 --> 0:17:02.076 The fact that you remember to engage with it, But 0:17:02.156 --> 0:17:06.036 the fact that yours really is an other oriented purpose, 0:17:06.236 --> 0:17:08.956 I think gives it kind of special power and special weight. 0:17:09.436 --> 0:17:11.836 You know, there's just lots of evidence that the typical 0:17:11.876 --> 0:17:14.116 way we think about what makes us happy, which is 0:17:14.316 --> 0:17:17.796 doing for ourselves or treating yourself or self care, it 0:17:17.916 --> 0:17:20.116 just doesn't do the work that we think, like the 0:17:20.316 --> 0:17:22.716 real kind of bang for your energy and your bluck 0:17:22.796 --> 0:17:24.716 in terms of like what's going to boost your well 0:17:24.756 --> 0:17:27.396 being is taking time to do stuff for other people. 0:17:27.636 --> 0:17:29.396 I know on both of our podcasts we've talked a 0:17:29.436 --> 0:17:32.156 lot about the feel good do good effect right where 0:17:32.156 --> 0:17:34.196 it's just like, if you do stuff for others, you're 0:17:34.196 --> 0:17:36.956 going to wind up feeling better, And so making that 0:17:36.996 --> 0:17:40.196 sense of purpose not about you winds up making it 0:17:40.236 --> 0:17:42.396 easier to kind of engage with these things because then 0:17:42.396 --> 0:17:44.116 the parts that feel like it's about you, of like oh, 0:17:44.116 --> 0:17:46.556 your particular podcast numbers go down, or your talk didn't 0:17:46.596 --> 0:17:48.836 go well, it's like it's not about you. Right, if 0:17:49.036 --> 0:17:51.396 that talk resonated with one person in the big audience, 0:17:51.756 --> 0:17:53.676 then check, you know, you've done your work for the day, 0:17:53.716 --> 0:17:56.396 you can kind of feel good about it. And so yeah, 0:17:56.436 --> 0:17:58.916 So yet again the science is taking off all the 0:17:59.156 --> 0:18:00.716 all the great advice you're giving us here. 0:18:00.956 --> 0:18:05.876 What do you think about the overlap between self interest 0:18:06.636 --> 0:18:10.636 and altruism, because I feel like, a there's no bright 0:18:10.676 --> 0:18:15.116 line here, They're really interwoven in some profound ways. 0:18:15.596 --> 0:18:18.276 Yeah, I think this is a like deeply mistake in 0:18:18.396 --> 0:18:22.156 theory we have just in general about happiness and well being, 0:18:22.196 --> 0:18:25.436 Like there's some pot out there of like, you know, 0:18:25.516 --> 0:18:27.596 the goodness that can happen in the world, or the 0:18:27.596 --> 0:18:29.796 happiness that we can all achieve. And I think our 0:18:29.836 --> 0:18:32.316 mistaken theory is often like, well, if I do something 0:18:32.396 --> 0:18:35.316 nice for somebody else, then there's like less overall happiness 0:18:35.316 --> 0:18:37.116 in the pot, like that happiness went to that person 0:18:37.116 --> 0:18:39.236 and then there's like less for me. But that is 0:18:39.276 --> 0:18:41.996 just like all studies show that that's just not how 0:18:41.996 --> 0:18:45.276 happiness works. It's like a growing pie. The more nice 0:18:45.276 --> 0:18:48.276 stuff we do for other people, they wind up feeling great. 0:18:48.396 --> 0:18:50.676 We wind up feeling great. That gives us more, both 0:18:50.676 --> 0:18:53.116 of us more bandwidth to do nice stuff for other people. 0:18:53.516 --> 0:18:55.236 And I think we don't have this great growing the 0:18:55.276 --> 0:18:57.836 pie model of happiness, but that's sort of how it works. 0:18:58.276 --> 0:19:00.156 I think the key, though, is that we have to 0:19:00.236 --> 0:19:02.956 kind of it's helpful to remember that the motivation isn't 0:19:02.956 --> 0:19:05.396 about us. I think when we get in the headspace 0:19:05.436 --> 0:19:07.596 of like I'm going to do nice things for other 0:19:07.596 --> 0:19:09.076 people and I'm going to do things for the better 0:19:09.196 --> 0:19:11.716 fit of all creatures because I personally want to be happy, 0:19:12.116 --> 0:19:14.756 it sort of loses something. So I think really holding 0:19:14.756 --> 0:19:17.116 on to the motivation that like it's not about you 0:19:17.596 --> 0:19:20.236 can be a profound step for ultimately, in a very 0:19:20.236 --> 0:19:23.396 ironic way, it becoming absolutely about you and your well 0:19:23.396 --> 0:19:25.356 being and your happiness. And I think this is so 0:19:25.516 --> 0:19:28.756 true at work, right. I mean, most of our workplaces 0:19:28.836 --> 0:19:32.876 offer lots of opportunities to do nice stuff for other people. Right, 0:19:32.916 --> 0:19:35.316 even if you're in the kind of worst capitalists sort 0:19:35.316 --> 0:19:37.756 of system, maybe you're creating a product that maybe somebody 0:19:37.796 --> 0:19:40.116 will enjoy, or at least you're making the shareholders some money, 0:19:40.276 --> 0:19:42.916 like they'll be happy. Right. I think we often don't 0:19:42.956 --> 0:19:45.716 frame kind of our success in business as being about 0:19:45.716 --> 0:19:49.036 other people, but so often it really is. Whether that's 0:19:49.156 --> 0:19:51.196