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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece.

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Speaker 2: A bombshell for the state's case and the Delphi prosecution,

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Speaker 2: the case regarding the murders of Abby and Liberty, thirteen

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Speaker 2: and fourteen year old girls that were brutally murdered. I'm

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Speaker 2: Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being

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Speaker 2: with us here at Foxination in serious XM one eleven.

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Speaker 3: This is the bombshell.

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Speaker 2: Has the prime suspect actually given a confession? Did he

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Speaker 2: know he was being recorded? Doesn't matter? Did he give

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Speaker 2: a confession? Take a listen to our friends at WRTV.

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Speaker 4: The judge deciding that the public should see one hundred

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Speaker 4: and eighteen of the one hundred and thirty six documents

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Speaker 4: that have been filed through the courts. The documents revealed

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Speaker 4: the following Richard Allen admitted to his wife and a

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Speaker 4: jail house phone call to.

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Speaker 3: Killing Abby and Libby.

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Speaker 4: Several times his wife hung up the phone. The documents

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Speaker 4: also revealed for the first time how the girls died,

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Speaker 4: saying an autopsy revealed their wounds were caused by a

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Speaker 4: sharp object. Documents go on to say that the girl's

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Speaker 4: clothes were found down the creek, but a pair of

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Speaker 4: underwear and a sock was missing from the crime scene.

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Speaker 2: Is it true Lenny was recorded talking to his wife

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Speaker 2: and admitting he murdered these two little girls, forcing them

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Speaker 2: down off that trestle bridge and then murdering them. Take

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Speaker 2: a listen now to our friends at CBS four.

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Speaker 5: Now, the other thing that really sticks out in these

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Speaker 5: documents is that back in April, Richard Allen called his

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Speaker 5: wife from prison and admitted several times that he killed

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Speaker 5: Abby and Libby. That confession was brought up at Alan

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Speaker 5: Flask court hearing, and it happened right around the time

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Speaker 5: that his defense attorneys claimed that his mental health was

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Speaker 5: declining and then he needed to be moved out of

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Speaker 5: the Westfield Correctional Facility.

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Speaker 2: Okay, we know that there are motions and complaints about

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Speaker 2: the CI correction institution that yelled that he's in from

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Speaker 2: which he's making these calls. We'll get to that, But

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Speaker 2: this is not just about confessions alleged confessions. Take a

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Speaker 2: listen to our cut one twelve, our friends at w TR.

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Speaker 6: And for the first time we learned that investigators believe

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Speaker 6: a knife was used in the murders. Court records say

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Speaker 6: articles of clothing from the girls were missing from the scene,

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Speaker 6: including a pair of underwear and a sock. Clothes from

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Speaker 6: both girls were found down the creek, and four other

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Speaker 6: girls also saw the man on the bridge that day

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Speaker 6: and describe him as kind of creepy and he seemed

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Speaker 6: to be in a grumpy mood. And a woman says

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Speaker 6: she later saw the man in the bridge video walking

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Speaker 6: down the road wearing a blue jacket and jeans. He

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Speaker 6: was muddy and bloody, she said, and looked like he

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Speaker 6: had been in a fight.

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Speaker 2: Dear Lord in Heaven when I think about what happened

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Speaker 2: to these two girls, joining me an all star panel

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Speaker 2: to make sense what we know right now. But first

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Speaker 2: to the host of a new hit series, Zone seven,

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Speaker 2: also founder of the Cold Case Research Institute, Cheryl McCollum,

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Speaker 2: joining us, Cheryl, we said from the beginning, as did you,

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Speaker 2: Joe Scott Morgan, There's no way he did not take

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Speaker 2: a souvenir from the scene, which is completely creepy. And

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Speaker 2: I'll bring in doctor Bethany on this in a moment.

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Speaker 2: But I like to scrapbook all things about my children, John,

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Speaker 2: David and Lucy, my twins. But for a killer, they

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Speaker 2: say mementos like I put in a scrapbook, like a sock,

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Speaker 2: like a pair of underwear.

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Speaker 3: You said it on day one, Cheryl, and I agree

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Speaker 3: with you.

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Speaker 7: Yep, there was no chance he didn't take a souvenir.

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Speaker 7: This was, in a really twisted way, the biggest thing

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Speaker 7: he's ever done in his life. He wanted something to

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Speaker 7: remember it by. So I mean again, sadly, I mean

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Speaker 7: you and I tell people this all the time when

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Speaker 7: we're right.

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Speaker 8: It's not good news.

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Speaker 2: And you know Joscott Morgan. A search of his home

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Speaker 2: did not turn up the underwear, but that does not

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Speaker 2: mean that he didn't take it. I want you to

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Speaker 2: analyze what we're learning from this female witness. I haven't

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Speaker 2: even gotten to the admissions. I'm going to go to

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Speaker 2: Onya Cain and Kevin Greenley on that, but Joe Scott

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Speaker 2: helped me. Guys with me is Joe Scott Morgan, Professor

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Speaker 2: Forensics at Jacksonville State University. I've been there and they

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Speaker 2: have an incredible criminal proceedature and criminology department. Author of

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Speaker 2: Blood Beneath My Fate on Amazon and star of brand

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Speaker 2: new hit series.

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Speaker 3: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan.

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Speaker 2: Joe Scott the fact that a woman sees defendant Richard

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Speaker 2: Allen muddy and bloody. The day of the murders makes

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Speaker 2: me sick to my stomach because that tells me these

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Speaker 2: girls did not die quickly. They were sex assaulted in

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Speaker 2: one way or the other because their clothes were taken

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Speaker 2: off and missing.

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Speaker 3: When I was missing our.

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Speaker 2: Underwear, muddy and bloody, they fought for their lives.

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Speaker 3: Joe Scott.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, down in that little holler down there beneath that bridge.

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Speaker 8: I can only imagine, Nancy, how alone they were and

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Speaker 8: have terrified That area down there is so isolated and

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Speaker 8: there's no way I talked to Mike about this over God,

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Speaker 8: how many years has it been now, Nancy, We've sat

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Speaker 8: around and chat about this case over and over again.

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Speaker 8: You know, you talked about the missing underwear, and you know,

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Speaker 8: we think about souvenirs and that sort of thing. When

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Speaker 8: you have these fenders that will do that and they'll

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Speaker 8: take it in the squirrel it away, rat hole it

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Speaker 8: away so they can go back and reloop. He took

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Speaker 8: another souvenir with him as well, and that's that transfer

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Speaker 8: evidence on that clothing. One interesting thing that came out

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Speaker 8: to me and Nancy and a lot of stuff you're

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Speaker 8: going to discuss that. What really kind of hit me

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Speaker 8: was this talk of this blue Carhart jacket that he

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Speaker 8: was known to possess, that his wife knew that he had,

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Speaker 8: and the fact that now we've got this witness that

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Speaker 8: is saved that not only was he covered in mud.

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Speaker 8: Remember this is a river bottom or creek bottom down

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Speaker 8: in that area, so you're gonna have a lot of

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Speaker 8: transfer from that, but she saw blood. She saw blood

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Speaker 8: on him, and he would have been bathed, Nancy, because

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Speaker 8: we know there wasn't just one. There were two of

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Speaker 8: these precious little girls that were killed. When I think

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Speaker 8: when it all comes out, it's gonna be anything beyond

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Speaker 8: our wildest nightmares that we can imagine what happened to.

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Speaker 3: You know, doctor Bethany Marshall joining.

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Speaker 2: Me, high profile psychoanalyst joining us out of Beverly Hills.

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Speaker 2: You can find her at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Bethany. I would have to force gerrrs when I

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Speaker 2: would try cases to.

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Speaker 3: Think about the facts of the case. There's something about

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Speaker 3: the way Joe Scott just said it. Two little girls

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Speaker 3: the age of my little girl, and you know how

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Speaker 3: tiny and fatigue.

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Speaker 2: My little Lucy is just beautiful on the inside and

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Speaker 2: out down there in the mud under a bridge alone.

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Speaker 2: Know that they were unclothed, and we know now that

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Speaker 2: they fought. What demon from hell would make two little

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Speaker 2: girls strip and then fight them. He was covered in

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Speaker 2: mud and covered in blood. I mean, he is straight

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Speaker 2: from the devil's bedroom.

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Speaker 3: And she's just awful. Who can do that to two

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Speaker 3: little girls?

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Speaker 7: You know, Nancy, I had the same thought as Joseph

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Speaker 7: Scott Morgan was talking. He paints a vivid picture of

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Speaker 7: what these little girls went through. And in terms of

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Speaker 7: this guy.

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Speaker 9: Straight from hell, I mean, remember he worked at the

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Speaker 9: local CBS, so not only was he a sex predator,

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Speaker 9: but he's kind of like a spider with weaving a web,

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Speaker 9: just waiting for little girls to come in and out.

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Speaker 7: I mean, this guy was probably waiting to rape too little.

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Speaker 9: Girls and was surveilling everybody in that little town, everybody

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Speaker 9: coming into the CBS, probably walking around in the woods waiting.

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Speaker 7: For two little girls. You know, in terms of who

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Speaker 7: was he, well, at the most benign level, he's a pedophile.

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Speaker 9: You know, not all pedophiles act out, but he's a

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Speaker 9: pedophile that did most do, and he's a pedophile that

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Speaker 9: acted out.

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Speaker 7: He is somebody who wants to control and possess children.

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Speaker 7: He probably was a sadist, in other words, that he

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Speaker 7: got off on inflicting cruelty on these little girls. I

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Speaker 7: wonder if we're going to find out that their genitalia

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Speaker 7: was mutilated or some other evidence like that on the bodies.

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Speaker 7: I'm sure that there was something about inflicting terror on

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Speaker 7: them that was sexually satisfying to him. Who was he psychologically?

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Speaker 9: This is a man who masturbated quite a bit while

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Speaker 9: thinking about children, and at some point in his masturbatory

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Speaker 9: life that was not enough. He graduated to controlling children

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Speaker 9: in his fantasy life, and then inflicting cruelty on children,

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Speaker 9: and then killing children. I've talked to pedophiles like this

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Speaker 9: where they describe a gradual escalation in not only their

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Speaker 9: sexual fantasy fantasies and masturbatory life, but then what they

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Speaker 9: searched for online in order to satisfy those fantasies. And invariably,

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Speaker 9: as they tell the story, they say something like, you

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Speaker 9: know what, I couldn't get off just looking at children,

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Speaker 9: so that I had to look at children who's been kidnapped.

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Speaker 7: Well, then I had to look at children who had

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Speaker 7: bags over their heads, you know that I had to

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Speaker 7: That goes on and on and on, and that I

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Speaker 7: usually discover that that's actually a rationalization that they were

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Speaker 7: sexual status from the get go. But they're just telling

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Speaker 7: me a certain kind of story to make it seem

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Speaker 7: as if they had to graduate to worse and worse

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Speaker 7: fetishized fantasies in order to increase their sexual excitement, whereas

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Speaker 7: in fact that's what they were to begin with.

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Speaker 9: That's how they came into this world. And I would

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Speaker 9: think on the day that these girls were murdered, this

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Speaker 9: guy was probably I'm sorry to use the word sexual

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Speaker 9: so many times, but I think he was in some

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Speaker 9: kind of a sexual frenzy and he was going to

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Speaker 9: do as much harm as he could to these poor

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Speaker 9: little girls in order.

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Speaker 7: To, I don't know, excite himself, to masturbate, to have

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Speaker 7: a sense of dominance, a sense of being at the

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Speaker 7: center of the world. And then that was not enough.

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Speaker 9: Then he had to take objects from them to continue

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Speaker 9: his masturbatory life, because that's what these trophies are all about.

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Speaker 10: Remember this was the day before Valentine's Day and clearly

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Speaker 10: he left a signature on his work, which was that

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Speaker 10: expended rent, not expended round, but the ejected cycle.

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Speaker 8: Round from his weapon. In the two.

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Speaker 2: Girls, Guys, You're hearing, Dale Carson, renowned criminal defense journey,

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Speaker 2: joining us out of the Jacksonville jurisdiction, not only veteran

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Speaker 2: trial lawyer, but former FBI agent and author of Arrest

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Speaker 2: Proof Yourself. You can find him at del Carson Law

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Speaker 2: dot com. That's a whole noother animal right there. The

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Speaker 2: fact that this was at Valentine's Day, the occurrence the murderers.

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Speaker 1: Prime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: Any Kine is joining US journalist and co creator of

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Speaker 2: the Murder Sheet podcast along with Kevin Greenley. He was

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Speaker 2: also joining us not only co creator of the Murder

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Speaker 2: Sheet podcast, but lawyer as well in the Delphi jurisdiction,

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Speaker 2: which is Indiana. Let's focus on what we do know,

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Speaker 2: and that is there is evidence that more than one

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Speaker 2: confession was given. Tell me about it, any Kine, And

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Speaker 2: of course we wouldn't know any of this if it

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Speaker 2: hadn't been for you and Kevin Greenley. Filing emotion for

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Speaker 2: documents and evidence to be released to the public, which

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Speaker 2: I'm also going to address but can I talk about

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Speaker 2: the confessions?

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Speaker 3: How many confessions are we talking about? To whom?

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Speaker 2: And does anybody in their right mind not know the

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Speaker 2: jailhouse calls are being recorded. I mean every x number

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Speaker 2: of seconds you hear a recording go, this is from

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Speaker 2: a correctional facility. Everybody knows that it's being recorded. Why

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Speaker 2: did this idiot give a confession to his wife?

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Speaker 11: Right?

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Speaker 12: And it's one of those things where I mean this

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Speaker 12: to us is like the bombshell contained in both these

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Speaker 12: documents and the recent into June fifteenth hearing in the case,

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Speaker 12: because we're learning that it's not one confession, it's five

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Speaker 12: to six confessions, and it's not to a jail house

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Speaker 12: smitch he might be unreliable. It's to his life on

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Speaker 12: a recorded line. As you said, he has no expectation

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Speaker 12: of privacy whether he's in jail or prison. So prosecutor

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Speaker 12: can absolutely use this.

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Speaker 8: Now.

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Speaker 12: Where the defense is coming in and where they're going

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Speaker 12: to try to pick this apart is saying, hey, it's

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Speaker 12: not really a confession, it's just a bunch of incoherent,

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Speaker 12: incriminating statements, and you know he's kind of losing his

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Speaker 12: mind right now, because of bad prison condition. So that's

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Speaker 12: their point. Prosecution is going to be saying, listen, no

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Speaker 12: one was coercing him here.

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Speaker 8: This is his wife. I mean, she is so.

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Speaker 12: Upset by this exchange. She hangs up on him.

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Speaker 3: Do you have any idea what his actual words were, Anya.

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Speaker 12: No, that's a crucial thing, right the transcript.

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Speaker 7: What did he say?

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Speaker 12: Did he have details? Was this all over the course

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Speaker 12: of one phone call or was this like a ramping

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Speaker 12: up over time, And so we don't know exactly what

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Speaker 12: he said. We do you know that his defense attorney

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Speaker 12: characterized it as totally incoherent and inconsistent. So he's basically saying,

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Speaker 12: don't listen to that. He's just basically losing it and

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Speaker 12: saying whatever. And so that's his characterization. But we do

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Speaker 12: know that prosecutor Nick mcclearland, he's been focused on this

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Speaker 12: and he's been saying multiple confessions, you know, and in

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Speaker 12: it's in person, doesn't do this. And basically McCleland is

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Speaker 12: saying that, yes, he is having a mental deterioration, but

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Speaker 12: it's because he's you know, because the case, it's because

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Speaker 12: he feels guilty.

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Speaker 8: It's because he's losing control.

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Speaker 2: And it's because the world has found out that he's

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Speaker 2: the prime suspect and a double murder of two little girls.

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Speaker 2: Before that, he was carrying on perfectly fine at his

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Speaker 2: job at CBS. Kevin Greenley with me, Indiana lawyer, co

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Speaker 2: creator of the Murder Sheep podcast. Also, if it weren't

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Speaker 2: for Kevin Greenley and Anya Kane and the Murder Sheep

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Speaker 2: Podcast who filed a motion for the release of documents

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Speaker 2: in evidence, we wouldn't know about all this. So you know,

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Speaker 2: Kevin Greenley from your work called Murder Sheet podcast, but

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Speaker 2: also as a lawyer, they may the defense may try

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Speaker 2: to claim, ohbaweight, he's talking to his wife, husband wife privilege.

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Speaker 2: You can't use that statement in court number one. Apparently

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Speaker 2: there are other confessions he made, we hope to other people.

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Speaker 2: But also if a third party is present during that

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Speaker 2: otherwise privileged communication, that defeats the privilege. So if you

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Speaker 2: say something to your spouse and somebody else is there,

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Speaker 2: like you're at a cocktail party and go, hey, by

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Speaker 2: the way, I did that murder and there's somebody else

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Speaker 2: standing there, you don't have a privilege. And here this

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Speaker 2: is at a jail house on the phone where everyone

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Speaker 2: knows or should know the phone calls are recorded and

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Speaker 2: there are other people around that could have ever heard him,

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Speaker 2: So that defeats any husband wife privilege claim.

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Speaker 11: I absolutely agreed that this phone call is not covered

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Speaker 11: by privilege, especially since it was reported. The privilege at

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Speaker 11: the very most wouldn't mean the Kathy Allen, Richard Allen's wife,

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Speaker 11: would not be forced to testify about this phone call.

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Speaker 11: But we don't even need her testimony because we have

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Speaker 11: the actual recording, and both Richard Allen and his wife

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Speaker 11: were aware that it was being recorded because as you mentioned,

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Speaker 11: that constantly said and repeated throughout the course of the

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Speaker 11: phone call. And also we do know he did confess

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Speaker 11: to at least one other person because in the court

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Speaker 11: document it indicates he also confessed in some manner over

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Speaker 11: the phone to his mother.

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Speaker 2: Well, I can tell you right now there is no

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Speaker 2: mother son privilege, and we learned that Well, it came

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Speaker 2: to the public's consciousness during the Monica Lewinsky incident with

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Speaker 2: Clinton because her mother was called to a grand jury

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Speaker 2: and she did not want to go. She went kicking

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Speaker 2: and screaming. But there is no parent child confidential reality.

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Speaker 2: You either have to be held in contempt if you

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Speaker 2: don't testify, or get up on the stand and tell

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Speaker 2: the truth, or get up on the stand and lie

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Speaker 2: and commit perjury. Those are your three choices as a

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Speaker 2: parent to a suspect. Guys A lot happening. But we

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Speaker 2: heard Anya describing Anya Kinge joining us describing defendant Richard

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Speaker 2: Allen the Delphi murders of Abby and Libby. I don't

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Speaker 2: want their names lost in the sauce as mentally deteriorating.

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Speaker 2: Now we've learned one thing he's doing behind bars is

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Speaker 2: he's taking the papers that as defense lawyers are giving

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Speaker 2: him motions, notes, whatever, wedding them and eating them. Cheryl

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Speaker 2: McCollum joining me, star of Zone seven podcast, Cold Case

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Speaker 2: three Research Institute founder Cheryl. I had a defendant that

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Speaker 2: I was planning to try for murder, and he would

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Speaker 2: there's no nice way to put it. I'll say defecate, okay,

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Speaker 2: I'll go with that in his jail cell and then

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Speaker 2: smear it on the walls.

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Speaker 3: And the defense couldn't wait to tell me about it.

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Speaker 2: That guy he was acting out to try and get

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Speaker 2: an incompetency defense. What he's doing now right now in

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Speaker 2: jail doesn't matter. That goes to incompetence that you can't

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Speaker 2: help your lawyer. What would help him, if anything, would

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Speaker 2: be an insanity defense. Did you know right from wrong

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Speaker 2: at the time of the incident. Now I don't believe. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: yeah they do. They have the insanity defense. Don't you

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Speaker 2: have the insanity defense? Kevin Greenley in Indiana?

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Speaker 8: Yes, yes, we do.

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Speaker 3: Okay, it's Idaho that does not recognize an insanity defense.

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Speaker 2: So I would counter that claim, Cheryl, with the fact

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Speaker 2: that he hid evidence, acting normally after the ends, after

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Speaker 2: the murders, went back to work.

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Speaker 3: Was even photoed with.

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Speaker 2: His wife at a bar celebrating something like it wasn't

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Speaker 2: a hooter's but a hooter's tight bar. And right above

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Speaker 2: his head is do you know this man? And there

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Speaker 2: was a do you remember that shot? And there was

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Speaker 2: a composite drawing of him. And he's sitting right under him,

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Speaker 2: you know, holding up a beer. He's fine, and he

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Speaker 2: can water down all of his defense motions all he

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Speaker 2: wants and eat him with us sterling silver fork for

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Speaker 2: all I care.

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Speaker 3: Doesn't matter, Nancy, who is this?

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Speaker 11: Here's Dave Dell.

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Speaker 3: Go ahead, you're talking over Cheryl by the way.

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Speaker 10: What you look at the photograph or ketch behind his head,

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Speaker 10: you will notice an interesting thing. The guy's thin. He's

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Speaker 10: got long hair and no facial hair, and Allan has

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Speaker 10: court hair and facial hair. Now, so the preparation may

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Speaker 10: not be for an insanity defense. The preparation may be

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Speaker 10: for incompetent to proceed, which avoids the death penalty for

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Speaker 10: a period of time until this all goes away and

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Speaker 10: it's forgotten and memory unless you keep it in the forefront.

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Speaker 2: You know what I'm going to say to you, del

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Speaker 2: cars number one. I don't like anything he just said.

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Speaker 2: But as I often say to the twins when they're

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Speaker 2: saying something that I don't like, I.

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Speaker 3: Just say that over and over. I add to that, Wait,

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Speaker 3: was that not intelligent?

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Speaker 13: En?

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Speaker 3: What jumpy?

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Speaker 8: You?

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Speaker 7: Please? When I talk over ryl and Dale.

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Speaker 3: Bowls, as if I can stop you.

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Speaker 7: The wedding, the papers, eating them, whatever he's doing. You know,

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Speaker 7: there's a fancy word for that in my field. It's

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Speaker 7: called ma lingering. Lingering when you make up some fictitious

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Speaker 7: disorder in order to get out of some negative consequence,

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Speaker 7: like like act like you have a brain tumor, so

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Speaker 7: you don't have to be go to the army, you know,

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Speaker 7: serve your duty, or to go to jail or something.

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Speaker 9: So he's acting crazy so that he can, you know,

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Speaker 9: get out of whatever consequences for this crime. But for

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Speaker 9: the more, this confession to his wife, I don't hear

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Speaker 9: it so much as a confession as telling her before

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Speaker 9: all the facts get to her. And also he could

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Speaker 9: be trying to get her to hide evidence, so you know,

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Speaker 9: that goes to sort of this really clever, plotting, devious

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Speaker 9: part of him, the same part of him that murdered

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Speaker 9: and sex assaulted these girls. All at the same time,

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Speaker 9: he's acting sort of crazy and disheveled and mentally ill.

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Speaker 9: And you know, I just think it's messy. I think

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Speaker 9: what these defendants do in jail all the time is

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Speaker 9: kind of a predictable routine.

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Speaker 2: Jackie's waving her arms all right, Nan Corner in the studio,

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Speaker 2: I just want to get another Cheryl, And she's right,

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Speaker 2: she wants me to remind everybody. A team of two

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Speaker 2: psychiatrists and one psychologist evaluated Alan April fourteen, end quote

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Speaker 2: determine Alan did not need involuntarily involuntary medication and that

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Speaker 2: he was eating and sleeping just fine, just fine, Okay,

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Speaker 2: jump in, Cheryl.

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Speaker 7: Okay. The not eating was self imposed. I said it

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Speaker 7: from day one. This was a hunger strike so that

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Speaker 7: he would not look the same as Bridge guy. The

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Speaker 7: not making phone calls again, his choice to not sleeping

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Speaker 7: all him. Let's be real clear about an inmate code

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Speaker 7: in prison. Other inmates look at a child molester or

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Speaker 7: a child killer as the lowest of the low. Everybody

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Speaker 7: knows those folks are not exactly safe inside. Who has

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Speaker 7: written a letter about the abuse and mistreatment another pedophile?

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Speaker 7: So birds of a feather once again. So this letter

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Speaker 7: that this pedophilero says that he believes that Richard Allen

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Speaker 7: they threatened his life, they told him he needed to

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Speaker 7: kill his self. And then he names names. But you

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Speaker 7: want me to believe you're in there the child molester.

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Speaker 7: So you're already not safe. Now you've written this letter,

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Speaker 7: this is published in front of God and country, where

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Speaker 7: you name the people they're supposedly going to kill mister Allen.

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Speaker 7: And now you're a snitch.

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Speaker 3: Now you're a snitch.

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Speaker 2: Guys, it's not just the confessions that are the huge

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Speaker 2: torpedo to the defense case. Take a listen to our

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Speaker 2: cut one zero eight.

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Speaker 5: Richard Allen was interviewed by a d NR officer the

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Speaker 5: day Libby Jermy and Abby Williams were murdered. He told

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Speaker 5: them he was on the Monon high Bridge that day,

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Speaker 5: But that interview went nowhere until it was re examined

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Speaker 5: in September of last year. Now, shortly after that interview,

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Speaker 5: you resurface. Investigators interviewed both Alan and his wife. Following

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Speaker 5: that interview, they applied for a search warrant for Allan's home. Now,

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Speaker 5: this is one of these new documents that we got today,

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Speaker 5: that search warrant, and according to that, they seized a

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Speaker 5: handgun and several bullet cartridges. You may remember investigators claimed

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Speaker 5: that a bullet found between the girls' bodies had been

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Speaker 5: cycled through Richard Allen's gun.

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Speaker 2: This is integral two things out of what we just heard.

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Speaker 2: Number One, Richard Allen was acting perfectly normally when he

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Speaker 2: was interviewed immediately after the murders, soon after the murders,

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Speaker 2: as was his wife. And don't you know, the wife

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Speaker 2: had no idea. She finds out about it over a

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Speaker 2: jailhouse phone call and immediately hangs the phone up. So

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Speaker 2: It was just fine, working, acting normally, going out into

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Speaker 2: bars and restaurants. Everything was as normal until now we

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Speaker 2: started seating his defense papers behind borrowmon't eight. Remember Ted

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Speaker 2: Bundy did that too. He lost wait intentionally so he

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Speaker 2: could escape. But that said, why is it so critical

437
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 2: that they performed the search at the home? Take a

438
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 2: listen to our friends at ABC seven.

439
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,880
Speaker 14: Lawyers for Richard Allen have filed emotion asking that key

440
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 14: ballistics evidence be thrown out at trial. Alan is accused

441
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 14: of killing Abby Williams and Libby Jerman in twenty seventeen.

442
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:32,120
Speaker 14: According to investigators in unfired bullet was found between their bodies.

443
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,399
Speaker 14: It reportedly came from a gun belonging to Alan.

444
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 2: That's why they don't want that, Eviden Sin because that

445
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 2: weapon matches back to a bullet found at the crime scene.

446
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 2: And No, I don't think the girls were shot. I

447
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 2: think a sharp knife was used. Joe Scott Morgan joining

448
00:26:54,880 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 2: US Professor Forensis Jacksonville State University. You and Chris McDuff,

449
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 2: Director Cold Case Foundation and star of the Interview Room.

450
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 2: Take a listen to our cut one one three our

451
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 2: friends at WTCHR.

452
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:12,119
Speaker 6: Police searched Alan's home last October. They seized a handgun,

453
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 6: which investigators believe Alan used in the crime, and matches

454
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:20,159
Speaker 6: an unspent bullet found next to the girl's bodies. About

455
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:24,639
Speaker 6: ten hunting and utility knives were also confiscated, along with

456
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 6: a blue Carhart jacket and other clothes. Investigators also took

457
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 6: carpet samples and swabs from the seatbelts in Alan's Ford

458
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 6: Focus vehicle that they believed was seen on the trail

459
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 6: that day, and Alan admitted in two different interviews that

460
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,919
Speaker 6: he was on the bridge that day. He says he

461
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 6: went out on the bridge to watch the fish.

462
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 3: Watch the fish, my rear end.

463
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 2: Listen that water is so far beneath the trestle bridge.

464
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 2: What fish is he watching at that desk?

465
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 1: Since time Stories with Nancy Grace.

466
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 2: Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, and they've

467
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 2: got one heck of a criminology department, author of Blood

468
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,399
Speaker 2: Beneath My Feet and host of a hit series Body

469
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 2: Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott unspent bullet. Many

470
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 2: people would say, how can you match an unfired bullet

471
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 2: back to a gun? It was quote cycled through Richard

472
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 2: Allen's gun.

473
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 3: How do you approve that.

474
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 8: Yeah, this weapon that he owned, Nancy is a sixth hour,

475
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,719
Speaker 8: which is a brand of handgun that he possessed, and

476
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 8: he had had it for a number of years, for

477
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 8: quite some timely according to reports. Here here's here's the baseline.

478
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 8: Unlike a fired round that goes down the down the barrel,

479
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 8: where you have the lands and grooves that are created, uh,

480
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 8: the markings that are created on a fired projectile. It's

481
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 8: a very specific ballistic signature when you have what they're

482
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:23,479
Speaker 8: talking about is a cycled a cycled round which is

483
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 8: actually on the brass casing. So you have what are

484
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 8: called extractor marks and ejector marks on the surface of

485
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 8: these little brass cylinders that contain you know, that make

486
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 8: up the live round, and their marks that are left

487
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 8: behind on actually the sides of the brown of the

488
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 8: brass tube okay, of the of the of the projectile,

489
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 8: and also on the base of the projectile as well. Now,

490
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,959
Speaker 8: this is not a solid ballistic evidence to say a bullet,

491
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 8: but it still matches up to this weapon and they've

492
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 8: run it through the lab and these are going be

493
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 8: a little striding marks on the side so they're saying

494
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 8: that that round that was down near the bodies had

495
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 8: actually been ejected out of this weapon. So what that

496
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 8: means is is that he would have pulled this is

497
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 8: a semi automatic hand gun.

498
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 15: He would have pulled the slide back, okay, and the

499
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 15: round would have gone flying through the air and it

500
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 15: landed probably in leaves or in the grassy area adjacent

501
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 15: to body, and they were able, they were able to

502
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 15: recover this.

503
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 8: I've thought about this somewhat, you see, and this is

504
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 8: almost like, you know, when we think about that the

505
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 8: mode of death is going to be some kind of

506
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 8: sharp force of then okay, I think that this weapon,

507
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:52,479
Speaker 8: this weapon, the sixth hour, was used in order to

508
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 8: plorize them. And who was acting perhaps as some kind

509
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 8: of forgiven me, half ass fictional villain where he's threatening

510
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 8: these little girls with this weapon and this act like

511
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 8: you see in some kind of movie from Hollywood. He's

512
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 8: pulling that slide back, it's making the sound and it

513
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 8: makes a very distinctive metallic point as you pull it back,

514
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 8: that round the jets out and it slams forward. It's

515
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 8: going to threaten them. Who can get them to do

516
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 8: whatever he wants? To do. Remember what he said up

517
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 8: on the bridge, down the hill, down the hill, he's

518
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 8: demonstrating that weapon at that moment in time. He gets

519
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 8: them down there, he's got them corralled and this pre

520
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 8: preset location, and he threatens him with this weapon. He

521
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 8: pulls it back to demonstrate how menacing he is and

522
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 8: he can get them to comply, these two little girls.

523
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 7: Or he's demonstrating that he's the man, he has the weapon.

524
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 7: He's like the big guy. Like maybe he's one of

525
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 7: these men who feel small into side, but in relation

526
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 7: to these two little girls, he feels powerful, he feels big.

527
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 9: So part of it might be the heat acting menacing.

528
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 9: I'm sure Jo Scott Morgan is more right than I am.

529
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 9: But it also has a celebratory quality, Like we're near

530
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 9: the fourth of July, people are shooting fireworks into the air.

531
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 9: It's like an active jubilation. And it could be that

532
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 9: this was his greatest moment of glory too, because it

533
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 9: was shot into the air, not at them.

534
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 2: Kevin really joining me Indiana lawyer or and co creator

535
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 2: of the Murder Sheet podcast, Kevin, isn't it true that

536
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 2: when one of the girls who was taking the picture

537
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 2: of the part walking forward toward them on that bridge.

538
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 2: Didn't one of them mention a gun?

539
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 11: Yes, it is true that one of the girls mentioned

540
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 11: a gun on that recording, and it's also true that

541
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 11: that recording picked up the audio of a gun being clip.

542
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 2: Okay, I please say that again and very slowly. I

543
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 2: want everybody to hear that, because up until we get

544
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 2: information because of you, Kevin Greenley and on you Caane,

545
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 2: we didn't know all this. This has only recently come

546
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 2: to light. Would you say that very slowly? Let it

547
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 2: sink in.

548
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 11: On that reporting, one of the girls mentioned the fact

549
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 11: that this man has a gun, and also on that recording,

550
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 11: it picks up the sound of a gun beams flip.

551
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 2: Chris mcdonnald joining me, Director Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective,

552
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 2: host of The Interview Room on YouTube. Chris, you're hearing

553
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 2: what Joe Scott said and what Kevin Greenley said. Can

554
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 2: you just imagine if you even let yourself let your

555
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 2: mind go there, these two little girls down there in

556
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 2: that mud under that bridge, and this a hole takes

557
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 2: out a gun and Greenley says you can hear it

558
00:33:55,680 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 2: where he I guess turns the chamber or menaces them

559
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 2: with the gun. You can actually hear it. One of

560
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:08,759
Speaker 2: the girls still had her cell phone on and recording.

561
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 2: What do you make of this, Chris mcdonna.

562
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 13: Well, first of all, the victim that is seeing this

563
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 13: gun is in pure terror at that moment enough to

564
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 13: share that information with her girlfriend, and so it tells

565
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 13: us a couple of things. Also about the motive of

566
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 13: the suspect. He came to that place with two weapons,

567
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,800
Speaker 13: the gun, and now we learn that there was a

568
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:39,840
Speaker 13: knife involved. So he was preparing in his fantasy for

569
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 13: any type of incident that potentially could present itself. So

570
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 13: the knife as he gets down, as he uses the

571
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 13: gun to get them down the hill, as Joe was

572
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 13: talking about, I can imagine him, you know, using that

573
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 13: weapon to control as a complete control tool, and you

574
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,880
Speaker 13: get the into a place where he now has one

575
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 13: hundred percent advantage. But what's really horrifying about the death

576
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 13: of these two children at the hands potentially allegedly if

577
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 13: this is him, is the fact that now he personalizes

578
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 13: it to the knife. And that's where the fantasy and

579
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,720
Speaker 13: all of the pre planning that the doc was talking

580
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 13: about is now executed. And it's never the way they

581
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 13: felt it was going to be and obviously in this case,

582
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 13: there was evidence that the children started to flee. He

583
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 13: was not prepared for that, and that's probably why we

584
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 13: have the ejection of the round coming out of that gun,

585
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 13: because you know, he may have just kind of racked

586
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 13: that slide back and the round came out.

587
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 2: And remember how close to the vast cops held all

588
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:57,360
Speaker 2: the evidence, Cheryl McCollum, We didn't know at the beginning

589
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,760
Speaker 2: an unspent round was found between the two girls' bodies.

590
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 2: They didn't let that out, and it was a good

591
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 2: thing they didn't because once later down the road, when

592
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 2: they before the first one on the home, when they

593
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 2: get that gun, then they can.

594
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 3: Make the match.

595
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 2: Don't you know If he knew that bullet was at

596
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 2: the scene, he would.

597
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 3: Have gotten rid of that gun.

598
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,760
Speaker 7: That's right, And it was a great possibility. He didn't

599
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:25,799
Speaker 7: even realize it. When he's so intent on making them

600
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:30,919
Speaker 7: terrified and he racks that weapon clearly pointing at one

601
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 7: of them, then he may or may not even be

602
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:37,319
Speaker 7: aware that the bullet was left there. But Nancy, I

603
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,240
Speaker 7: want to go back to the bridge. Remember in the beginning,

604
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 7: you and I had many conversations that I believed that

605
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,880
Speaker 7: picture that everybody put out was him turning around. He

606
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,359
Speaker 7: is way too close to the right side of that

607
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,720
Speaker 7: bridge and looks to me like his hip are coming

608
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 7: back into the middle of the bridge. And I said,

609
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 7: from the very beginning, no fourteen year old girl is

610
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:07,280
Speaker 7: going to videotape a man without something overtly already happening.

611
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 7: I still believe he passed them, maybe showed them the gun,

612
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 7: and then when he turned around, they knew, okay, something

613
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 7: bad is going on. If you look at his right hand,

614
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 7: his right elbow is bent. Is he fixing advrantish that

615
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 7: weapon again as he's turning around. That is no doubt

616
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:27,879
Speaker 7: how he controlled them to get them to go down

617
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 7: to the hill, to walk all the way to the

618
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,279
Speaker 7: place that he had already you know, pre picked out

619
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 7: for the murder scene, there's no doubt in my mind.

620
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 7: Then he, you know, cuts their throats. I believe I've

621
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 7: always thought that's what he did, because there's no screaming,

622
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 7: there's no gunfire, nobody hears anything, even though there's other

623
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 7: people walking around. Then he stages the scene. He takes

624
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 7: the items, and he walks back to his car, that's

625
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 7: part two far away. This is not a dude that

626
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 7: was in shape. He wouldn't part far away to then

627
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 7: go hiking. That don't make no sense.

628
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 2: Anya Cain joining US co creator Mercery podcast, Explain you

629
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:13,320
Speaker 2: and Kevin explain why you file the motion that has helped.

630
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 3: Uncover all of this evidence.

631
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 12: First to you, Anya, Absolutely, this case has been plagued

632
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,319
Speaker 12: by mystery from the beginning. The public wants to know

633
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 12: who killed these beautiful girls, Why did this happen?

634
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 7: Are we safe?

635
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 8: Are our children safe?

636
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 12: And for a lot of good reasons, I think the

637
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:33,360
Speaker 12: investigators have been very reluctant to part with any information.

638
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:37,880
Speaker 12: And frankly I get that keeping the bullet quiet for

639
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 12: all these years, I think may turn out to be

640
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 12: the crucial decision that solves this thing if Alan is convicted,

641
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 12: and you know, the jury.

642
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:46,959
Speaker 8: Find goes that way.

643
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:49,760
Speaker 12: So I think, you know, but now is the time

644
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 12: that we're going into trials that people need to know

645
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 12: that this case has been investigated properly and that things

646
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 12: you're preceding pre trial in a proper way. And can

647
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:00,879
Speaker 12: I just say, thinking about those two girls and then

648
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 12: commenting on that bullet, I feel like they may have

649
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 12: helped solve their own case here because that information was

650
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 12: used by investigators, kept quiet by investigators, and ultimately matched

651
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,719
Speaker 12: to this gun potentially. And so I mean, I just

652
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 12: the bravery that they displayed under such unimaginable circumstances just

653
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 12: really stands out to me.

654
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:20,320
Speaker 3: It really does.

655
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 2: Kevin Greenley, what moved you and Anya to file this

656
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 2: motion so this evidence could be made public?

657
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 11: Basically, this is one of the most important investigations in

658
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:37,800
Speaker 11: the history of the state of Indiana, and I believe

659
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 11: that people of the state, the people of this country,

660
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 11: the people of the world have a lot of questions

661
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 11: about how it was conducted and how different resources were used,

662
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 11: and whether or not mistakes were made, or whether or

663
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,840
Speaker 11: not decisions were made properly. That we just didn't have

664
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 11: the information to evaluate the time, and so much of

665
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,360
Speaker 11: that was being kept secret, and it was being kept secrets,

666
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:04,360
Speaker 11: in our opinion, unnecessarily. So we filed this notion with

667
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 11: the judge basically saying, if there's no reason to keep

668
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 11: these documents secret anymore, since we're entering this trial phase,

669
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 11: please just go ahead and release as much as you can.

670
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,280
Speaker 11: And we were really gratified and pleased that she agreed

671
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 11: with us and ended up releasing some man of these documents.

672
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:27,279
Speaker 2: Thank you to Kevin Greenley and Anya Kane for allowing

673
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:32,360
Speaker 2: us the opportunity to evaluate the evidence as we know

674
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 2: it now. Confessions match up with bullets ballistics evidence. What

675
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 2: more does the state have in its arsenal of evidence

676
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 2: against Richard Allen? We wait as the evidence unfolds. Goodbye man,