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Speaker 1: Hello everybody. I'm Jemma Spake and welcome back to the

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Speaker 1: Psychology of Your Twenties, the podcast where we talk through

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Speaker 1: the biggest changes, moments, and transitions of our twenties and

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Speaker 1: what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back

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Speaker 1: to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. It is

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Speaker 1: so great to have you here, back for another episode.

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Speaker 1: I just want to let you know before we get

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Speaker 1: into this episode that we are going to be discussing

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Speaker 1: some intense subject matter today to do with physical abuse,

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Speaker 1: emotional abuse, verbal abuse, that sort of thing. So if

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Speaker 1: that is something that you're particularly sensitive to or you

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Speaker 1: don't really want to hear somebody talking about today, just

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Speaker 1: giving you a heads up so you can skip this

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Speaker 1: episode or maybe come back to it at a later

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Speaker 1: time when you are feeling, you know, maybe in a

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Speaker 1: more stable place. There will be some links to some

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Speaker 1: resources and some assistance in the show description as well.

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Speaker 1: Let's get into it today, we are talking about trauma bonds.

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Speaker 1: And no, not two people who bond through hardship, because

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Speaker 1: I hate to break it to you, that is actually

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Speaker 1: not a trauma bond. We are talking about a powerful

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Speaker 1: kind of connection that forms between two people, when one

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Speaker 1: person manipulates their own trauma or the trauma of the

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Speaker 1: person that they are with to create a highly dependent,

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Speaker 1: highly painful, highly manipulative relationship that is founded on the

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Speaker 1: highs and lows of emotional gaslighting, maybe even emotional abuse,

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Speaker 1: founded on hot and cold behavior, founded on betrayal and

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Speaker 1: hurt rather than love. What nobody tells you about trauma

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Speaker 1: bonds is how often people who think they would never

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Speaker 1: be susceptible to this kind of thing end up in

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Speaker 1: these relationships all of the time because of how powerful

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Speaker 1: inconsistency is at hijacking our brain's reward system. When somebody

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Speaker 1: gives you the most perfect fantasy version of love one

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Speaker 1: day and then switches it into the most terrible kind

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Speaker 1: of love the next, that emotional whiplash does something dangerous

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Speaker 1: to your brain. It teaches you that if you just

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Speaker 1: hold out a little bit longer, the good version is

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Speaker 1: going to come back around, and so it leaves you

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Speaker 1: holding onto potential and holding onto these terrible relationships and

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Speaker 1: these terrible people because of the potential of reward. In

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Speaker 1: that way, you know this person, the person that people

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Speaker 1: form a trauma bond with, becomes both their biggest source

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Speaker 1: of unhappiness but also their biggest source of happiness at times,

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Speaker 1: because this person is the one who can give and

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Speaker 1: take those things, who can give and take safety. People

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Speaker 1: who have never experienced this may look at it from

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Speaker 1: the outside and think, I don't know, why don't you

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Speaker 1: just leave? That person's obviously not good for you. Why

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Speaker 1: don't you know you deserve better? Why don't you just

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Speaker 1: walk away? But what they don't understand is the insanely

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Speaker 1: powerful neurobiological, psychological, physical, emotionally addictive patterns that this kind

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Speaker 1: of relationship creates, which essentially mean that our own self preservation,

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Speaker 1: our own instincts, our own emotions, our rationality, it all

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Speaker 1: just gets so totally scrambled. I think what they don't

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Speaker 1: realize is how smart abuses and partners can be, how

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Speaker 1: well they understand the mechanisms of insecurity and psychology, and

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Speaker 1: how well they can manipulate love. So this is exactly

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Speaker 1: what we're going to be revealing and talking about today.

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Speaker 1: If you have ever found yourself in this kind of

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Speaker 1: trauma bond, if you are recovering and healing from a

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Speaker 1: relationship that matches this pattern, or if you're just watching

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Speaker 1: like a friend or anybody in your life going through this,

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Speaker 1: and you're trying to understand how you can help them.

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Speaker 1: I think and I hope that this episode will bring

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Speaker 1: you some clarity. So without further ado, let's get into

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Speaker 1: the psychology of trauma bonds. Let's start by really clarifying that,

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Speaker 1: because this is totally essential. We really need to clarify

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Speaker 1: what we mean by a trauma bond because it has

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Speaker 1: been used very very casually these days, and that has

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Speaker 1: definitely diluted its meaning considerably, not because of anybody's poor intentions,

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Speaker 1: just because of concept creep. Concept creep is essentially the

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Speaker 1: casual expansion of serious terms to mean less and less

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Speaker 1: serious things and therefore take away the important meaning of

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Speaker 1: these words. I think we have all heard of people

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Speaker 1: who have come friends at a terrible workplace, you know,

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Speaker 1: joke that they are trauma bonded, or people who have

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Speaker 1: dealt with like the same tragic, awful X will be like,

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Speaker 1: how do you guys meet? Oh, we like, we have

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Speaker 1: like a trauma bond. We're like trauma bonded. That is

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Speaker 1: very different to the original meaning of this term. Trauma

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Speaker 1: bonding was first devised in nineteen ninety seven by this

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Speaker 1: man called doctor Patrick Kahnes, who interestingly also is known

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Speaker 1: for his work actually on sex addiction as a sidebar,

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Speaker 1: but he essentially created, discovered, founded this term to refer

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Speaker 1: to a relationship between an abuser and an abused person,

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Speaker 1: or a manipulative person and a target that is formed

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Speaker 1: in a way that gets somebody to stay against their

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Speaker 1: best interests because of trauma, because trauma creates a bond.

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Speaker 1: In contrast to like the normal use of the word

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Speaker 1: bond to describe like a deep, healthy reaction to love

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Speaker 1: and emotional vulnerability in connection, trauma bonding refers to how

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Speaker 1: we respond to emotional volatility and how we respond to

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Speaker 1: control sometimes, you know, actually tunneling further into the relationship

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Speaker 1: that is creating these bad feelings for protection when it's

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Speaker 1: obviously against our best interests because for some reason our

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Speaker 1: brain isn't able to rationally respond in these situations it

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Speaker 1: has been scrambled by somebody else's behavior. A bond is,

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Speaker 1: you know, in simple terms, really just a connection. A

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Speaker 1: trauma bond is a connection that is forged through something sinister,

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Speaker 1: but it is a connection nonetheless. In short, it is

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Speaker 1: an attachment based on cycles of the threat and relief

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Speaker 1: which leave the person in this relationship desperate for approval.

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Speaker 1: This can happen, yes, most often with a romantic partner,

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Speaker 1: but it can also happen with a parent, can happen

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Speaker 1: with a friend, It can happen with an institution, a

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Speaker 1: mentor anybody who has emotional control and can take what

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Speaker 1: somebody needs from a relationship and exploit it. These have

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Speaker 1: the capacity to turn into trauma bonds. The way that

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Speaker 1: a trauma bond begins is often through intense affection and

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Speaker 1: praise from the abuser, love bombing, like major declarations of love.

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Speaker 1: What appears to be fierce devotion. It's like a huge

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Speaker 1: emotional heigh. It's super intense, it's it's a magnetic, addictive

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Speaker 1: feeling to be cared for in such a way. They

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Speaker 1: may also, and this is critical, tell the person that

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Speaker 1: they are intending to form a trauma bond with stories

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Speaker 1: of their own trauma, particularly from their childhood, particularly from

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Speaker 1: past relationships, to generate like a deep psychological hold over

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Speaker 1: this other person, but also to elicit sympathy. This stage

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Speaker 1: is essential. It basically provides this abuse of this person

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Speaker 1: with an emotional alibi for their future bad behavior, and

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Speaker 1: they need to do this in order to engage the

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Speaker 1: next part of their plan because eventually, like their behavior

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Speaker 1: is going to switch, they're going to become cruel, and

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Speaker 1: having this reason why they do it to fall back

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Speaker 1: on helps them dismiss their behavior to you again. Like

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Speaker 1: I said, eventually it's going to escalate. But the thing

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Speaker 1: is is that this escalation is often also randomly juxtaposed

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Speaker 1: with warmth and affection. It will be like I love

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Speaker 1: you, You've disappointed me, like nobody ever has your greatest thing

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Speaker 1: that's ever happened to me. I never want to see

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Speaker 1: you again. I think you're beautiful. You disgust me. This

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Speaker 1: flip flop flip flop. In his article Love and Stockholm Syndrome,

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Speaker 1: The Mystery of Loving an Abuser, this psychologist doctor Joseph

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Speaker 1: Carver he calls this small kindness perception. Perhaps the abuser

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Speaker 1: has been giving somebody the silent treatment, and then they

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Speaker 1: show them this small kindness by breaking this silent treatment

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Speaker 1: with a gift or a hug. Maybe they will exclude you,

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Speaker 1: ignore you, and then suddenly turn around and want you're around.

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Speaker 1: This is that cycle of relief, pain and relief. Relief, pain, pain,

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Speaker 1: and relief, like not knowing which one's gonna come again.

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Speaker 1: They become an equal source of fear but also of safety,

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Speaker 1: meaning that even if somebody wants to walk away, all

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Speaker 1: of their emotional regulation, good and bad, is tied up

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Speaker 1: to this other person. There are enough good days to

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Speaker 1: entice you, and enough bad days to confuse you, and

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Speaker 1: enough excuses that they're giving you to think that they

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Speaker 1: can change. This hot and cold personality has been described

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Speaker 1: essentially like a two faced soulmate, which I think is

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Speaker 1: like a brilliant term for describing this. It basically fits

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Speaker 1: this pattern of intimate and reinforcement and reward and punishment.

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Speaker 1: It fits this pattern of like this person is two

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Speaker 1: different people in one body, and these two different people

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Speaker 1: are so difficult to disentangle because the good is just

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Speaker 1: so good and the bad is so different to that

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Speaker 1: that it's literally impossible to know what's real and what's not.

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Speaker 1: From there, the cycle of affection and cruelty continues often

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Speaker 1: for years, sometimes even for a lifetime for some people,

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Speaker 1: which is tragic to say. So, why does it happen

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Speaker 1: in the first place, Like what are the warning signs?

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Speaker 1: Why do these situations occur? And why do. So many

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Speaker 1: people often report being like it just kind of snuck

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Speaker 1: up on me if you haven't lived it. I feel

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Speaker 1: like it's very hard to understand that research into the

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Speaker 1: causes of trauma bonds. This might surprise you, might not

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Speaker 1: surprise some of you. Actually it's actually still really in

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Speaker 1: its early days, in early stages, because psychologists are still

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Speaker 1: getting a grasp on just still getting a grasp on

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Speaker 1: lie the power dynamics of all of this. But it

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Speaker 1: is thought that one of the core reasons that somebody

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Speaker 1: sets out to create a trauma bond, and whether that's

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Speaker 1: deliberate or like a little bit subconscious, it is because

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Speaker 1: of a deep need for power and adoration. This is

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Speaker 1: highly attributed to narcissistic personality traits or a narcissistic personality disorder.

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Speaker 1: A narcissist, as we know from one of our previous

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Speaker 1: episodes on this, needs to be at the center of

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Speaker 1: everything to feel like they matter. And whether they get

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Speaker 1: that through success, through money, through praise, or through romantic

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Speaker 1: manipulation and playing the victim like, it's kind of all

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Speaker 1: the same. If they get what they want, if they

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Speaker 1: get that spotlight, if they get the attention, if they

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Speaker 1: get adoration. In particular, there's a type of narcissist called

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Speaker 1: a vulnerable narcissist. It's very prevalent to have a trauma

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Speaker 1: bond with this kind of person. This is the type

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Speaker 1: of narcissist who takes up all the emotional oxygen in

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Speaker 1: the room and inner real relationship by always making themselves

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Speaker 1: the victim, by making sure that their crisis is always

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Speaker 1: the biggest crisis, by making sure that everybody like orbits

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Speaker 1: them so one individual being narcissistic or having being high

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Speaker 1: and trade narcissism is a huge risk factor. Another is

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Speaker 1: if the person who is either person really has an

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Speaker 1: insecure attachment style and one that is developed from past

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Speaker 1: bonds or past relationships. Feel like, we are all very

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Speaker 1: familiar with how with what an insecure attachment style is,

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Speaker 1: why how people develop that style and relationships. But again,

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Speaker 1: if your only blueprint for love is that affection is

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Speaker 1: something to be given and taken away, or that love

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Speaker 1: needs to be earned it is not freely given, it

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Speaker 1: becomes harder to question a trauma bond, and it becomes

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Speaker 1: harder to question when a new romantic partner does things

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Speaker 1: that are a little bit odd or a little bit

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Speaker 1: nefarious because you don't know an alternative. That's what love is,

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Speaker 1: that's what you know it as. That's how your parents

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Speaker 1: loved each other, That's how they loved you. So all

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Speaker 1: these warning signs that to other people would be these

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Speaker 1: bright red flags, like you just miss them because you

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Speaker 1: don't have you haven't learnt what unhealthy love versus healthy

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Speaker 1: love looks like. There's also a biochemical element to this

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Speaker 1: as well, which I don't see talked about very often,

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Speaker 1: but the anthropologist Helen Fisher, she actually showed in her

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Speaker 1: research that this kind of love actually activates some of

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Speaker 1: the same brain regions that are responsible for crocane addiction,

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Speaker 1: alcohol addiction, gambling addiction because of that intermittent reinforcement we

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Speaker 1: were speaking about. Basically, sometimes you win, more often you lose,

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Speaker 1: but sometimes you win and that feels really nice. That

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Speaker 1: keeps you hooked. That's why people keep sitting at slot

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Speaker 1: machines waiting for their luck to turn. I need people

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Speaker 1: to understand this. There are some powerful biological systems working

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Speaker 1: against your favor here, especially in a turbulent relationship. I

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Speaker 1: think the effects of all these chemicals are going to

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Speaker 1: be so much more profound, you know, you've got dopamine, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but you've also got oxytocin, vasapressin, serotonin, cortisol, nor a

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Speaker 1: pinnepherent adrenaline, all mixing together. Because of how many highs

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Speaker 1: and lows there are, there are just too many signals

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Speaker 1: to intercept and for your rational mind to I guess

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Speaker 1: like sort through. So your ability to walk away into

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Speaker 1: rationally see what's happening is just scrambled. When somebody is

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Speaker 1: the source of both the best and worst parts in

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Speaker 1: your life. No chemical in your body is a good

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Speaker 1: or bad chemical. It just responds to stress all things

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Speaker 1: in your environment, and you're just receiving so much of that.

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Speaker 1: In particular, like dopamine, I feel like it plays a

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Speaker 1: role in so much, but especially for this. Something that

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Speaker 1: you might not know about dopamine is that, yeah, it

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Speaker 1: gives you pleasure, but it also minimizes pain. So when

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Speaker 1: you're going through painful emotional experiences, right, dopamine is numbing you.

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Speaker 1: It's reducing your pain response physical and emotional, so that

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Speaker 1: you can endure hard things. But it's also giving you

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Speaker 1: this strangely positive reinforcement reward here, So it's not working

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Speaker 1: in our favor, right, dopamine is being released because what

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Speaker 1: you're going through is hard. But then also your brain's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: but then we feel good. So this is essentially like

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Speaker 1: the perfect chemical assistant to an abuser who is playing

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Speaker 1: that hot and cold persona to their advantage emotionally but

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Speaker 1: also biochemically, and is it traps people. Finally, I think

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Speaker 1: another big factor here is just time. The longer the

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Speaker 1: person the abuser waits before showing the side of them,

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Speaker 1: the more sympathy they are able to gain through those

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Speaker 1: early on vulnerability disclosures. But also the more sunk costs

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Speaker 1: they know they are creating, the harder it is for

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Speaker 1: somebody to walk away because they've already invested so much

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Speaker 1: time into the relationship. You'll also notice that, like at first,

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Speaker 1: the switch between kind and awful is pretty it's pretty

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Speaker 1: it's pretty rare, like to see this terrible side of

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Speaker 1: them in the first months years of the relationship because

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Speaker 1: they're kind of testing the boundaries. Slowly, though, that terrible

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Speaker 1: side becomes more prominent as they kind of adapt somebody

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Speaker 1: and acclimate somebody to their bad behavior. They know they

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Speaker 1: know that in the beginning, the longer in between the

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Speaker 1: good and bad behavior the harder it is to detect,

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Speaker 1: the longer the relationship continues, the more bio and emotional

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Speaker 1: rewiring is being done, the more entrenched somebody is. It

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Speaker 1: is just such a powerful reminder that like people can

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Speaker 1: be in these relationships for years, everybody from the outside

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Speaker 1: can be like, something is wrong here, and it will

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Speaker 1: not show up on their emotional radar because it is

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Speaker 1: essentially I don't like to use terms like brainwashing or

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Speaker 1: Stockholm syndrome, but it is a form of that. It's

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Speaker 1: like that classic analogy of a frog being put into

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Speaker 1: a pot of boiling water. If the water is already boiling,

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Speaker 1: if somebody dropped you into an abusive relationship, you would

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Speaker 1: jump out immediately, But if the water slowly boils around you,

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Speaker 1: you don't notice it. And in the case with frogs,

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Speaker 1: like they end up dying before they can escape, because

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Speaker 1: they just just gets hotter and hotter and hotter until

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Speaker 1: they don't even realize. Do not be mistaken here. Manipulative people.

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Speaker 1: They know how to target these levers of addiction, of acclamation,

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Speaker 1: of just everything to keep you hooked. Okay, we are

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Speaker 1: going to we're going to take a short break here,

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Speaker 1: and then I really want to take us through this

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Speaker 1: list of like is it a trauma bond? Is it not?

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Speaker 1: And what are some signs that things are really taking me?

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Speaker 1: Turn for the worst? Stick around will be right back

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Speaker 1: after this shortbreak. We've talked about what a trauma bond

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Speaker 1: is and I mentioned, you know, there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: concept creep, a lot of people using this for different things,

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Speaker 1: So how can we really know what's like the biggest

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Speaker 1: sign that this is going on? I think crucially, like

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Speaker 1: the big thing to remember is that all relationships are

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Speaker 1: going to have some level of emotional disclosure, Like yah dah.

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Speaker 1: People are going to share their secrets. People are hopefully

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Speaker 1: going to talk about their childhood trauma. People are hopefully

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Speaker 1: going to talk about the really hard stuff that it's

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Speaker 1: going on in their life. Them sharing that is not

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Speaker 1: a sign that like they're using their vulnerability to manipulate you,

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Speaker 1: Like it's just genuine vulnerability. So I don't want you

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Speaker 1: to be in maybe the early days of a relationship

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Speaker 1: or sitting here thinking, hey, like that guy just told

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Speaker 1: me about how his mum was really awful to him,

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Speaker 1: or like that guy just told me about his ex

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Speaker 1: and how terrible she was. Is he trying to like

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Speaker 1: get his cooks in me. No. In healthy relationships, there

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Speaker 1: is mutual sharing, there is mutual understanding. There is sympathy

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Speaker 1: for some things, empathy for others, for both people's things.

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Speaker 1: There is never blame, and it will be hard at times,

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Speaker 1: but there is never blame. And you always know you

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Speaker 1: are on the same side. Right. You always know like,

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Speaker 1: this person doesn't think this is my fault. Right. In

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Speaker 1: a trauma bond, you are made to feel like the aggressor.

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Speaker 1: You are made to feel like you were responsible for

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Speaker 1: triggering someone else's emotions and their behavior and their bad habits.

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Speaker 1: You're the reason they cheated, or their trauma is the

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Speaker 1: reason they cheated or did something terrible or were awful

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Speaker 1: to you or switched. So suddenly you're like, I don't

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Speaker 1: know who's the victim and who's the villain. I think

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Speaker 1: I'm the victim. I think I'm having a hard time,

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Speaker 1: but they've made everything so confusing. So these are the

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Speaker 1: five key signs of a t from a bond. Other

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Speaker 1: than that intimate reinforcement highs and lawyers we spoke about,

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Speaker 1: there is a distinct honeymoon period that you can recollect

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Speaker 1: and you can look back on that is slowly turning

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Speaker 1: into a nightmare period Number two. The strange desire to

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Speaker 1: initially want to help this person. There's this sense as

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Speaker 1: well that you should be able to manage their behavior

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Speaker 1: and that maybe their behavior is justified. It can be defended,

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Speaker 1: it can be minimized because it's not them, it's their hurt,

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Speaker 1: it's their pain, Like, you should be able to work

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Speaker 1: through this with them. You're not a bad person. You're

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Speaker 1: not going to abandon somebody who has trauma. Eventually, it

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Speaker 1: does also seem like their pain seems to hurt you

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Speaker 1: more than them, but you really care and you're just

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Speaker 1: trying to be kind. There's hypervigilance. Eventually you will get

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Speaker 1: to this stage of being like, I don't know what

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Speaker 1: is the right thing to say. I don't want to

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Speaker 1: make them angry. I don't want to make them mad

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Speaker 1: at me. So there is this lingering, ongoing stress response.

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Speaker 1: You reread every message, you reconsider everything you say, even

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Speaker 1: nice things that you want to do for them. You're like,

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Speaker 1: how can this be interpreted in the worst possible way?

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Speaker 1: Because you know their mind and their behavior is going

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Speaker 1: to go to that. There is isolation from support systems

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Speaker 1: and from yourself as well you as a support system.

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Speaker 1: They will find ways to detach you from people who

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Speaker 1: they know are going to interrupt what's happening, perhaps by

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Speaker 1: asking you to move in with them really quickly, demanding

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Speaker 1: all your time really quickly, asking you to move states

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Speaker 1: really quickly, telling you that like, they don't like your friends,

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Speaker 1: they don't like that guy that your friends with, they're jealous,

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Speaker 1: they don't think they're good for you. You should spend

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Speaker 1: all your time with them. They also make it hard

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Speaker 1: for you to leave. If you have ever sat in

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Speaker 1: this relationship and thought, I'm actually just deeply unhappy. I

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Speaker 1: don't like who I am in this kind of relationship.

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Speaker 1: This is not the person I want to be with.

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Speaker 1: But emotionally, you're like, leaving isn't really an option though like,

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Speaker 1: I can't leave. Part of me doesn't want to, but

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Speaker 1: I really know I should. That is a big sign

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Speaker 1: of a trauma bond. During my research, I actually came

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Speaker 1: across a test from this book on narcissistic abuse that

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Speaker 1: I think is really helpful and the author her name

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Speaker 1: is Vanessa. She basically devised this test to help people

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Speaker 1: gain that clarity that situation I was just talking about

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Speaker 1: where it's like I feel one thing, I think the other.

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Speaker 1: This test like helps cut through that chaos and just

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Speaker 1: be like no, definitively like, this is a bad situation,

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Speaker 1: so you can kind of return to this. But I

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Speaker 1: think this set of questions is really useful. First up,

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Speaker 1: would you want your friend's family, sister, brother to be

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Speaker 1: in this relationship? Would you want them to trade places

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Speaker 1: with you? Yes or no? Be does your situation look

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Speaker 1: toxic when you visualize somebody else in the same particament,

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Speaker 1: maybe a celebrity, maybe you're like a sibling or a friend.

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Speaker 1: See do you frequently find yourself thinking or having to

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Speaker 1: explain to others that, like they just simply don't understand

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Speaker 1: your relationship. Do you frequently have to justify the other

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Speaker 1: person's behavior you kind of have to pitch or like

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Speaker 1: sell parts of this person to others. Do you know

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Speaker 1: it is best to leave again, but you simply cannot.

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Speaker 1: Do you feel like there was an invisible force keeping

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Speaker 1: you to this person? And finally, do you feel confused, afraid,

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Speaker 1: scared when you are apart from them. If you are

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Speaker 1: answered to any of these things, it just gets you

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Speaker 1: thinking some of these aren't like yes or no. But

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Speaker 1: if they just get you thinking, I think it might

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Speaker 1: be worth just like sitting with this for a while

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Speaker 1: and being like, huh, how much of their behavior is

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Speaker 1: actually not okay? How much of an emotional haze are

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00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 1: they creating around our relationship to keep me hooked even

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Speaker 1: though they're treating me really really badly? Let's talk about why?

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Speaker 1: And this is like the natural next step. Why are

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Speaker 1: these bonds so hard to break? Though? Like what is

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Speaker 1: the magnetism? I think this question again comes up all

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Speaker 1: the time, like why don't you just leave this guy,

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00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,520
Speaker 1: this girl, this person is awful to you. Think what

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Speaker 1: people don't understand is like what they're really asking, like

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Speaker 1: how psychologically imprisoning a situation like this is, Especially if

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Speaker 1: you are a kind, sensitive, empathetic person. If you are

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Speaker 1: somebody who truly wants to do their best by everybody,

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00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 1: you may see this person is genuinely just needing you

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Speaker 1: and fixable. No matter how much holding onto them hurts

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00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,360
Speaker 1: and burns you, like, you still feel like it's your

401
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,359
Speaker 1: job to make them better. There's also the fact that,

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00:24:55,440 --> 00:25:00,240
Speaker 1: like your entire identity can become this person. Financially yeah, sure,

403
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:06,400
Speaker 1: physically yes, mentally, they are your weekends. They are your evenings.

404
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,359
Speaker 1: They are your thoughts. They are what you choose to wear,

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00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 1: what you choose to talk about, what you think will

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00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 1: impress them, what you say to avoid a fight. Again,

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00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 1: just to nail this point home, they are your safety.

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00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,919
Speaker 1: They control the danger. They are what they bring danger

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00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 1: and sadness and harm and cruelty into your life. They

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00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,719
Speaker 1: are also the one who can take it away. So

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00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,360
Speaker 1: this means they control the negative. They also control the positive.

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Speaker 1: They control the highs, and they can position themselves as

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Speaker 1: well as a safe haven from other external disappointing things

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Speaker 1: in life. So you begin to like orbit them because

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Speaker 1: that's the only way that you feel secure is if

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00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:52,159
Speaker 1: you're on their good side. Experts have actually pinpointed like

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00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:56,959
Speaker 1: a seven stage cycle of trauma bonds to explain like

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Speaker 1: how deeply entrenched you become and what makes them so

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00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 1: hard to break and walk away from. We already know

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Speaker 1: like that first stage of like love bombing, indoctrination, vulnerability.

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00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 1: The second stage is like again when they start to

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00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,880
Speaker 1: test things out, so they start to just be like

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Speaker 1: can I get away with this? Can I not get

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00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,640
Speaker 1: away with this? What is this person? Gonna do. It's

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00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 1: at this point that if somebody kind of detects them,

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00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 1: or if somebody externally detects them and really like says something,

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00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 1: they'll often like abandon the relationship or they'll often be

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00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,439
Speaker 1: like they'll switch it up and be like, oh, I

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00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 1: just I don't want to commitment, like, oh, you're this

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00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 1: person that like I'm not ready for this relationship because

431
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 1: they kind of consense like, oh, there's a few maybe

432
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 1: other guard rails, but if like some of them are

433
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 1: really sneaky, like if they just happen to get away

434
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 1: with it, or if they've waited longer and longer to

435
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:52,199
Speaker 1: get away with it, sometimes it's just like very difficult

436
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 1: to recognize. So there is this period after the love

437
00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 1: bombing of like settling at times, and then these like

438
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 1: short little sprinkles of like something's kind of happening behind

439
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 1: the scenes, like something's not going right. Then comes like

440
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 1: the more intense stuff, and it's not going to start

441
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 1: out with like somebody doing something terrible. Maybe it does,

442
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 1: but it's only it's mainly gonna be like criticism and devaluation.

443
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,880
Speaker 1: It's often going to be like verbal and it's often

444
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 1: going to be things that like they can blame you

445
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 1: for right, So they're basically again it's like this boiling

446
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 1: water analogy. They're like slowly bringing you in, like how

447
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:42,119
Speaker 1: can I make myself the victim here so that this

448
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 1: person you feels like the villain and I can get

449
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 1: this all twisted. This is also very critical because they

450
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 1: start to get you to want to earn their approval

451
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 1: or earn their forgiveness for things that you are not

452
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,440
Speaker 1: at fault for. They really like they will work hard

453
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 1: at wisting reality to villainize you, to paint you as

454
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 1: the problem. So you kind of enter this dance where

455
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,640
Speaker 1: like you feel blamed, you feel like you have to apologize.

456
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 1: You feel like if they were to walk away from

457
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 1: the relationship, it would be your fault. All of this

458
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 1: is like deeply manipulative. It is part of the trauma bond.

459
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: Then we get to the stage of like upping the ante.

460
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 1: This this is when we get into like the there's

461
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 1: full on gas sighting going on. You completely doubt yourself.

462
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,880
Speaker 1: You suddenly uncover maybe lies that are happening in the relationship.

463
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: This is when you're really like, oh my god, maybe

464
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 1: something is wrong, but I am so in deep now

465
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,959
Speaker 1: I am so bonded to this person, I feel so

466
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 1: much like agitation when I'm not around them, and I'm

467
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 1: so dependent on them for emotional validation that like, at

468
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 1: this point, I just have to get through this. And

469
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 1: there is this continued illusion of another side that came

470
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 1: at the beginning. This is continued illusion of like things

471
00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 1: are going to get better. I think after a while,

472
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: when you realize this isn't going to happen, and this

473
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: is what researchers talk about, there is resignation essentially your

474
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 1: emotions and your body and your mind is like if

475
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 1: we're going to stay in this relationship, like we should

476
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,959
Speaker 1: just switch off, Like we want to be with this person.

477
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 1: I care about this person. Maybe there are just parts

478
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 1: of this that like we just can't engage in. So

479
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 1: there is definitely a point that comes about where it's

480
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: not that you just don't care anymore, but you're kind

481
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 1: of just like, Okay, this is just how it is,

482
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 1: Like I'm just going to make myself small. I'm just

483
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 1: going to try and be good. And Stage six swiftly

484
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 1: follows the loss of self. After so many months of

485
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 1: this manipulation, you lose sight of who you are as

486
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 1: a person. You are what they want you to be.

487
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 1: You are not you. You are what is required to

488
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 1: make them stay in your life and to make them happy.

489
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 1: All these things what brings you joy, what makes you excited,

490
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 1: your plans for the future, your hobbies, your friends. It

491
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,719
Speaker 1: would be very hard for you to say, because this

492
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:01,479
Speaker 1: is when they get you to the point of like

493
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 1: you are indoctrinated into this relationship. Leaving doesn't just mean

494
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 1: giving up the relationship. It means giving up your entire

495
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 1: sense of self. It often means giving up money, It

496
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 1: means giving up all this time. It means complete emotional

497
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 1: withdrawal at this stage as well, like there may be

498
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 1: options for you, opportunities for somebody to be like I

499
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 1: don't want to be here anymore and want to walk away.

500
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 1: Friends may get involved, whatever, But often that's when the

501
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 1: cycle starts again. They will turn on the charm. They

502
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 1: will give you all this evidence that they are changing,

503
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 1: just to recommit you to the relationship. People who are

504
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: in trauma bonds talk about the fact that it's not

505
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,239
Speaker 1: just one cycle. It's not just that they've gone through

506
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: the seven stages. Once they've gone through the seven stages,

507
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: like ten eleven, fifty times all over again, like somebody

508
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 1: bringing you back in so that you cannot leave. So,

509
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 1: if that is what's happening, If this is a slow

510
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 1: master plan to make you molded to this person, to

511
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 1: make you feel like they're everything, and you cannot walk away,

512
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: how do you walk away? This happens in many many ways,

513
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: Like obviously, like some people like their abuse that just

514
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 1: never lets them and they just are never able to.

515
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 1: But I do think that there does come a point

516
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 1: for the people who do walk away and the people

517
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 1: who have the help to walk away, where they're like,

518
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 1: oh my god, this is not love. And some people

519
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 1: describe it as an epiphany moment. Some people describe it

520
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 1: as a rock bottom other people describe it as like

521
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 1: this gradual realization of like this is not what people

522
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 1: fantasize about, like when I was a child thinking about love,

523
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: when I watched those beautiful romance movies when I was

524
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,239
Speaker 1: a kid, Like this was not it. Who would want

525
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: to be in this situation? I don't see anybody else

526
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 1: in this situation, or maybe you do, but like I

527
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 1: don't want this for my kids, I don't want this

528
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 1: for my friends, Like I don't want this for myself,

529
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 1: this is not how I want to be loved for

530
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,719
Speaker 1: the rest of my life. And I think choosing to

531
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: leave EVE requires acknowledging firstly, like that this is going

532
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 1: to be hard and mentally preparing for that first. It

533
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 1: will be at times emotionally difficult always, but also physically taxing.

534
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 1: This is something I rarely see people talk about people

535
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 1: who leave relationships like this, like I honestly believe they

536
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 1: should be entitled to sickly, like their entire immune system

537
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 1: has often become compromised from chronic stress. So there have

538
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 1: been all these like doctor reports or studies talking about

539
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 1: how when people finally walk away from these relationships, they

540
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 1: actually develop like month long sicknesses. They feel physically stricken down,

541
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 1: They get aches, fatigue, just colds, pneumonia, things they've never

542
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: gotten before because their body like stops running on cortersole

543
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 1: and stress and suddenly like the body has no more

544
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 1: reserves to fight off things that it's been holding back.

545
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 1: I wish people talked about this more like your body

546
00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 1: sometimes does, like feel physically burdened by leaving this relationship,

547
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: so there needs to be an acknowledgment of that, but

548
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 1: also some grace around that that Yes, you're gonna feel

549
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 1: mentally shit, you're gonna feel physically probably not great as well.

550
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 1: That is all part of your body, I think, like

551
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:14,959
Speaker 1: cleansing itself of this relationship. This is still grief, right this,

552
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: There is still a loss here. Our body grieves anything

553
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 1: that we were familiar with, anything that felt normal, uncomfortable.

554
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 1: Our loss of that, our lack of that, like our

555
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: removal from that, does feel like pain because it was

556
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 1: still something that you relied upon, even if it was unreliable.

557
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 1: This is not This is again not a sign that

558
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 1: you should go back to this person. It is simply

559
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 1: your body emotionally detoxing from a bond that had you addicted.

560
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,719
Speaker 1: We also have to appreciate the huge emotional and psychological

561
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 1: draw of trauma bonds is how good they made you feel.

562
00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 1: And those times are not discounted by the bad time.

563
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 1: You still live both times equally, both states of being

564
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 1: in that relationship were once you experienced, but because the

565
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 1: good times were contrasted with such powerful bad times, they

566
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 1: do kind of feel more emotionally profound. That's why the

567
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,319
Speaker 1: first week, the first month after being like I'm done

568
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 1: with this, We're done, can actually be really confusing, and

569
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 1: I feel like people need to prepare for that. Expect

570
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: to not know how to feel, Expect to not necessarily

571
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,360
Speaker 1: feel the elation you anticipated. Expect to question whether this

572
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 1: version of reality is one that you actually want it is.

573
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:37,879
Speaker 1: Trust me, you do want this version of reality. You've

574
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,359
Speaker 1: just got to get through this tiny period first. There's

575
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:43,839
Speaker 1: also this cognitive dissonance, like why do I feel so

576
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 1: devastated yet so loyal? How could I hate them so

577
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 1: much and still care about them? Why do I feel

578
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 1: like I'm to blame and yet I didn't do anything wrong.

579
00:34:54,920 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 1: This is just your brain trying to regain its petive

580
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,239
Speaker 1: and trying to retell the story in a way that

581
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,760
Speaker 1: makes sense to you after it's been dictated by somebody

582
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 1: else for so so very long. Whatever comes up for you,

583
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:23,359
Speaker 1: whatever like emerges, guilt, shame, fear, anger, sadness. It is

584
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 1: all just your mind suddenly coming up for air from

585
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 1: this terrible situation and suddenly encountering all these emotions that

586
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 1: have been suppressed and trying to make sense of them

587
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 1: so that it can pursue closure, so that it can

588
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,760
Speaker 1: pursue emotional clarity, so that it can give this story

589
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,319
Speaker 1: some kind of ending that shame, that guilt that is

590
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:48,320
Speaker 1: not for you to bear. That is not your burden.

591
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 1: It is purely your mind trying to find the appropriate

592
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,799
Speaker 1: emotional reaction and just drawing on anything it can from

593
00:35:55,880 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 1: the past that maybe slightly felt similar. That is not

594
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 1: the correct emotion guilt and shame, they will come up.

595
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 1: You did nothing wrong. You are not to blame for

596
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:11,399
Speaker 1: their behavior. This is just physical and emotional withdrawal. This

597
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 1: is again you're just trying to make sense of it.

598
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 1: They are probably not going through the same things that

599
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 1: you're going through because they do not have a conscience.

600
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 1: They are probably not struggling in the same way that

601
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,319
Speaker 1: you are. They are not sitting here contemplating did I

602
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:27,879
Speaker 1: do anything bad? Did I do what was right? Did

603
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 1: I hurt this person? And that in itself is the

604
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:32,879
Speaker 1: sign that they were the one to blame in this relationship,

605
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 1: because the very fact that you are considering even that

606
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 1: you have a role to play in this or considering

607
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 1: that you, you know, should feel some guilt, should feel

608
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 1: sorry for them, should feel some shame, shows that you

609
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 1: are a much better person than this individual and shows

610
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 1: that again, you have a conscience, you have care. They

611
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 1: do not have care. That is why they are not

612
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 1: considering it in this perspective. That is why, and that

613
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 1: is the clearest evidence that like they were the manipulator,

614
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 1: they were the cruel person in this situation. I want

615
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 1: to take another short break here so we can just

616
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: really focus again on how to trust, how to feel,

617
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 1: how to love, how to heal after these relationships, especially

618
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: if you are encountering it or enduring it in your twenties.

619
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 1: So stay with us, Go get a cup of tea.

620
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 1: We'll be right back after this short break. So we

621
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 1: did an episode a couple of weeks ago around how

622
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:36,720
Speaker 1: to experience healthy love after toxic love that I would

623
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,479
Speaker 1: highly recommend if you resonate with any of the things

624
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 1: that we're talking about today. But I thought, you know,

625
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 1: as we wrap up this episode, I would just give

626
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 1: you guys, like a little bit of a bite sized

627
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: summary right here, so that you just get like the

628
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 1: key high line points for this journey in this like

629
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 1: recovery that you're in recovering from a traumabone is never

630
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 1: not complex. But one of the best things that you

631
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 1: can do that I've heard from so many people is

632
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 1: to find as many objective witnesses as possible, and not

633
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 1: witnesses in like a legal sense sometimes that is equally necessary,

634
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:16,439
Speaker 1: But I mean witnesses in the emotional sense. People who

635
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 1: you can be truly open about your relationship with now

636
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 1: that it's done. People who can and people who will

637
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 1: confirm for you again and again like that's not love,

638
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 1: that's not right, that person was bad, that was bad behavior.

639
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:34,319
Speaker 1: People do not do that. You need those kinds of

640
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 1: emotional witnesses. I just finished reading Strangers by Bell Burden,

641
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 1: which I think is an amazing memoir if you are

642
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 1: going through this right now. And in her memoir, she

643
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 1: basically details how her husband of twenty years, out of

644
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 1: the blue, commits this terrible betrayal against her and takes

645
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 1: no accountability, but also then like abandons her and like

646
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:02,800
Speaker 1: overnight abandons their family and their children. Is like, I

647
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 1: don't want I don't want anything to do with this.

648
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 1: And one of the most powerful things she talks about

649
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:12,319
Speaker 1: in this book is this moment when someone completely out

650
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 1: of the situation, like outside of the situation, who really

651
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 1: doesn't know them very well, kind of tangentially, is like

652
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 1: that is bad, Like no, whatever you are thinking, he

653
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 1: shouldn't have done that. All your emotions about this are

654
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 1: completely correct, and she just talks about it as this relief.

655
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 1: This catharsis of like, finally somebody outside of me and

656
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 1: outside of us can tell me. This is what our

657
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 1: pain often needs. It needs a witness, It needs somebody

658
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:41,280
Speaker 1: who will interrupt that self enforced gaslighting that sometimes lingers

659
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 1: when somebody else has externally gaslight you for a while.

660
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 1: We need somebody who's going to be like, that was wrong.

661
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 1: I can objectively, I don't have any skin in the

662
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 1: game here that person was bad. A therapist is obviously

663
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 1: the best case scenario here, if you have access to that,

664
00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,919
Speaker 1: or a counselor or a psychiatrist, anybody who is true

665
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 1: informed is incredible, But again sometimes that's not accessible. Even

666
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 1: just having friends, new systems of support, family members that

667
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 1: you trust who will resenter you with their honesty and

668
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: with their honesty about what they saw and what they

669
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 1: know about love and why that situation wasn't love is

670
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 1: extremely powerful, Especially because so much of your social life

671
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:27,800
Speaker 1: and emotional life has been wound up in this other person.

672
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 1: It's going to be so easy to feel like you

673
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 1: should just retreat into your shell. Nobody wants to see

674
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 1: your emotional wounds. I promise they do. I promise. Like

675
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 1: people around you, especially after what you've been through, they

676
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 1: want the opportunity to love you, to heal you, to

677
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 1: be there for you. That is a language of love

678
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,359
Speaker 1: that many people speak. They will provide that for you.

679
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 1: They want to help you. Next, you need to restructure

680
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 1: your beliefs. You might have deep rooted fears now that

681
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 1: people will abandon you, You are unworthy of love, you

682
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: did something wrong again not true. So it is so

683
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:07,280
Speaker 1: important to take a step back and challenge that negative

684
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:09,800
Speaker 1: self talk. That is not your voice. That is their voice.

685
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,799
Speaker 1: That is the voice they implanted in your mind. I

686
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 1: need you to ask yourself like, is that really true?

687
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:18,799
Speaker 1: Is that really true? Your brain will always focus on

688
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 1: the most negative thought you have about yourself, or about

689
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,800
Speaker 1: the situation, or about the future of love and your life,

690
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 1: because you know it is the one that scares you

691
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 1: the most, and therefore it feels like the most important

692
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 1: thought to interrogate and to ruminate on, and to question

693
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 1: and to solve, or just to think about. Because it's

694
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 1: so scary. You think, if that one is true, we've

695
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,240
Speaker 1: got to really sort that out. It's that age old

696
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:45,879
Speaker 1: threat detection system we talk about on the podcast all

697
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 1: the time. Our brain is constantly scanning, like what is

698
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 1: going to take us down? Let's deal with that first.

699
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 1: The thing is that threat detection system has probably again

700
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 1: become hijacked by this other person, meaning your ability to

701
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:03,279
Speaker 1: dismiss your fears is harder because in the past they

702
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 1: made them come true for you. They knew what your

703
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 1: fears were because they got you vulnerable and close, they

704
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 1: made them come true. So anything that gives you cognitive distance,

705
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 1: anything that lets you be the judge and jury of

706
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:20,359
Speaker 1: your thoughts, not just the person who feels persecuted by

707
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 1: them or who feels like these thoughts are dropped into

708
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:25,760
Speaker 1: your mind and you have to believe them. That is essential.

709
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:29,799
Speaker 1: This involves or might involve, for you, locking your thoughts,

710
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 1: taking the false belief about whatever you're thinking, and providing

711
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 1: all the evidence that it's not true, providing or generating

712
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 1: five alternatives, making art from your thoughts, expressing them like

713
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:51,399
Speaker 1: in a creative way. Maybe it involves reprogramming, through gratitude,

714
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 1: through therapy, whatever works for you. Know those thoughts are

715
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 1: not your own, find a way, find a practice that

716
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:02,880
Speaker 1: lets you get that thought and kind of just examine

717
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 1: it and not commit to it, and know that, like

718
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:09,840
Speaker 1: your mind, as powerful as this other person probably was

719
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 1: and definitely was in your life, you are equally as

720
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:16,800
Speaker 1: powerful in changing those false beliefs and changing those narratives

721
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 1: that they've been planted in you, because now you get

722
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,760
Speaker 1: access to your brain all the time you are in charge.

723
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 1: Think of it like weeding your internal garden of like

724
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 1: the invasive weeds and vines that they've planted. Think about, like,

725
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 1: visualize every time you take a negative thought you identified

726
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:38,360
Speaker 1: as a thought they have planted, you like pull it

727
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 1: out from its roots and you throw it away. You

728
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 1: are cleaning up the garden, your garden. Finally, and obviously

729
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 1: there's a lot more to talk about, but for this episode, Finally,

730
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 1: the most important thing you can do after a relationship ends,

731
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,800
Speaker 1: other than therapy, other than getting as much physical distance

732
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 1: from that person as possible, is to work on creating

733
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 1: a whole new universe of interests people, weekend plans, evening rituals,

734
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:09,240
Speaker 1: creative rituals, practices, books, podcasts, favorite TV shows that they

735
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:13,920
Speaker 1: have no connection to. They will never get to touch it.

736
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 1: They have never heard about those parts of yourself because

737
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:21,239
Speaker 1: the things that you only started doing after them. If

738
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:23,960
Speaker 1: this person was your whole world, it is time to

739
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 1: create another planet of your personality that is just for yourself.

740
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,279
Speaker 1: They know nothing about this. This is all you. They

741
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 1: will never I just cannot express anything that you always

742
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 1: wanted to do when you were with them, and you

743
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 1: never told them about and you never tried. Now is

744
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 1: your time to do this. Now is your time to

745
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 1: put yourself at the center and to just completely replow

746
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:53,839
Speaker 1: and replant the garden. You have to forcefully dislodge them

747
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 1: from your mind by pouring as much novelty, joy, newness

748
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 1: as you can back into your life. I had a

749
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:04,439
Speaker 1: friend who left a relationship a couple of years back

750
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,800
Speaker 1: now who it was definitely a trouba bond. I think

751
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 1: we always recognize that she definitely does now. And she

752
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:16,760
Speaker 1: went and lived on a ranch for three months. Thankfully

753
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 1: she had the flexibility to do that. And when she

754
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 1: ran into him, I can't remember when. It was like

755
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 1: a year later. He was like asking her about all

756
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:29,759
Speaker 1: these things that like she was doing, and she just

757
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 1: like had this realization of like, oh, you don't know

758
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 1: anything about me anymore because I'm not that person. I've

759
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 1: completely recreated myself in my image, in the image of

760
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 1: like what is going to make me happy? And I

761
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 1: think after these kinds of bonds, whether they lasted for

762
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 1: two months, two years, twenty years, like that is the

763
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:53,359
Speaker 1: most powerful thing you can do anything to separate your

764
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 1: stories and to start essentially just like yeah, rewriting, rewriting,

765
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 1: I should say your own. So I think that is

766
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:03,839
Speaker 1: all we have time for. I could talk about this

767
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 1: for so long. So if you have made it to

768
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,239
Speaker 1: the end of this episode, thank you, And I hope

769
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:10,719
Speaker 1: you're doing okay, and I hope that this has been

770
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 1: helpful for whatever situation you are in. I just it's

771
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:18,319
Speaker 1: so difficult, whether you're trying to support a friend, whether

772
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 1: you're trying to avoid this in your own life, whether

773
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 1: you have been through this, like this is one of

774
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 1: the most awful, insidious kinds of relationships or bonds that

775
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 1: somebody can form with another human. So you're incredibly brave.

776
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 1: Hopefully now you are much more informed about what has

777
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 1: gone on and what will you know what has gone

778
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 1: on in your mind and your body to make this

779
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 1: kind of relationship so difficult to leave. And I'm just

780
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 1: wishing you the best of luck, and I'm wishing you

781
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 1: so much healing and self love and just like confidence

782
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:52,799
Speaker 1: going forward. And I just know that you are going

783
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 1: to replant your garden with the most beautiful flowers and

784
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,319
Speaker 1: in the most beautiful way, and you're going to create

785
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:03,360
Speaker 1: an incredible life for yourself that this terrible, tiny, toxic

786
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 1: person can never touch. So thank you so much for listening.

787
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:11,319
Speaker 1: Thank you as always to our researcher Lucy Davidson. If

788
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 1: you have made it this far and you were listening

789
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 1: on Spotify, and leave a little black heart in the

790
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 1: comments below, just so I know that you are still listening.

791
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 1: You can also follow us on Instagram at that Psychology

792
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:23,400
Speaker 1: Podcast you can leave a five star review if you

793
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 1: feel cold to do so. You can follow us on substack.

794
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 1: There's so many things, honestly, just check out the description

795
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 1: of the episode and you can find all our links

796
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:35,319
Speaker 1: to Netflix to all that stuff, as well as, as

797
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 1: I said, some further reading if this episode really resonated

798
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:42,880
Speaker 1: with you. But as always, as we wrap up, and

799
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:47,880
Speaker 1: especially with this episode, be safe, be kind, be gentle

800
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 1: to yourself. We will talk very very soon.