1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: Cool Zon Media. 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 2: Welcome to it could happen here. It is continuing to 3 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 2: happen stonks, but we will discuss the stonks probably late 4 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 2: later this week. This episode's going to be much more 5 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:19,079 Speaker 2: fun because I am I am pleased to have returning 6 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 2: to the show Elle Yeerman, writer, comedian and creator and 7 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 2: host of Going Down with Elle Yeerman, a trans political 8 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 2: comedy news show. As well as joining us here is 9 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 2: teen Vogue's news and politics editor Lex mcminnimon. 10 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 3: Welcome both of you. 11 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 2: Hi, Hi, Thanks, So we're going to be talking about 12 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 2: the recent teen Vogue special issue cover story on Vivian Wilson, 13 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 2: the estranged daughter of Elon musk Ella. You put together 14 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 2: a fantastic piece last month, and this is what we're 15 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 2: going to discuss. How this article came together, that viral 16 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 2: photo shoot in Japan, which is fantastic. All the styling 17 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 2: in that was lovely. But I think this this particular 18 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 2: piece was really relevant for like trans people and also 19 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 2: relevant because of the way like global politics has been 20 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 2: uh shaken up by a few specific people, and focusing 21 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 2: in on Vivian I think was really special. So I 22 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:22,680 Speaker 2: guess I would first like to hear about like yeah, 23 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 2: like the broad strokes of how this first came together 24 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 2: from our perspective. 25 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 4: You know, I don't know that like everyone is aware 26 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 4: of this, and certainly I don't know that all of 27 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 4: my friends in our various trans subcultures know this. But 28 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 4: at Tiemvigue, we've been covering like trans politics and trans 29 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 4: rites for a long time, like far before I got here, 30 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 4: but I've been here for almost four years, and it's 31 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 4: been a pretty big part of my beat, in part 32 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 4: because of it being like a very unavoidable thing within 33 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 4: following like US state legislatures and then obviously like at 34 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 4: the federal level, which has only intensified more and more 35 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 4: in the last year. 36 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: And so that's like one aspect of it. 37 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 4: But at the same time, we love young people that 38 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 4: shit post, and so Vivian had been on our radar 39 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 4: for a while totally. I also think people are maybe 40 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 4: more aware of this whole, like Comrade teen vogue vibe 41 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 4: of like we're really interested in talking to people that 42 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 4: have a clear political leaning, that have like a sense 43 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 4: of how they see themselves in the world in a 44 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 4: political context, And Vivian sort of came right out the 45 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 4: gate as someone who was really eager to share her 46 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 4: thoughts on these things. So from last summer, like within 47 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 4: like a month of when Vivian was kind of introduced 48 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 4: to the world through her father talking about her on 49 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 4: Jordan Peterson's podcast, we were trying to get in touch 50 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:38,640 Speaker 4: with her and with something I was talking a lot 51 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 4: about within the office, and we didn't really know what 52 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 4: to do because she was just kind of she just 53 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 4: kind of emerged from from nowhere onto the internet. And 54 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 4: so I had been talking about it a lot, including 55 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 4: with Ella because we talk a lot. And so Ella 56 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 4: find eventually revealed like, oh, that's UMPHI I am utuals 57 00:02:57,320 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 4: with Vivian. 58 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 1: You you did? I mean, are you threads? Mfies? 59 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 5: What are you Instagram? 60 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:06,119 Speaker 3: Instagram? 61 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 5: I would never use threads my god. 62 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 4: So over to you. That's my that's my Teen Vogue intro. 63 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 4: But Ella, if you want to. 64 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, because yeah, I am interested in contacting Vivian 65 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 2: because she was certainly getting like an unhinged number of 66 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 2: media requests starting last summer. 67 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 6: Yeah, that's that's true, right, So she did that one 68 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 6: NBC interview after after Elon went on Peterson and I 69 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:31,919 Speaker 6: do not work at teen Vogue, but lex and I 70 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 6: know each other because you're contractually obligated to know everyone 71 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 6: else who's part of the you know, deep state illuminati 72 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 6: doing trans politics online club. 73 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. 74 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 4: I was just gonna say trans people club, deep State. 75 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 5: Yeah, the pronoun Council exactly. 76 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 3: We're all established members. 77 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 6: Right, we swear allegiance once a year. There's a whole ritual, 78 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 6: don't don't worry about it. So when I got in 79 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 6: touch with Vivian last fall, which I got in touch 80 00:03:57,720 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 6: with her initially to see if she would come on 81 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 6: going Down, and I reached out to her and I said, 82 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:04,119 Speaker 6: do you want to come on my live comedy show? 83 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 6: And she said no, I'm actually not sure live comedy 84 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 6: is for me. I'm a little worried I'm not funny enough. 85 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 6: And since then she has changed her mind. She's told 86 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 6: me repeatedly that she regrets saying that to me, that 87 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:19,600 Speaker 6: she has decided she actually is funnier than everyone else alive, 88 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 6: all of the things that a prolific twenty year old 89 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 6: poster might say. 90 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 3: Absolutely. 91 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:29,479 Speaker 6: But so I got in touch with her and then 92 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 6: she said no, and I was like, okay, well, at 93 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 6: least I have this mutual now. And then a few 94 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 6: months later I mentioned to Alex that I gotten in 95 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:38,919 Speaker 6: touch with her, and Lex said, okay, so she doesn't 96 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 6: want to do a live comedy show that nobody that 97 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 6: nobody knows about. 98 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: Does not want to do a live comedy show. 99 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:49,840 Speaker 6: What if instead we did a really fancy photo shoot 100 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 6: and put her in teen Vogue, a legacy journalism magazine. 101 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 6: And I said, honestly, I think that's a better sales pitch, 102 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 6: and it was. 103 00:04:57,279 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, No, it is really compelling. I mean that the 104 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 2: photo shoot pulls a whole bunch of people in. It's 105 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 2: certainly if I was a Vivian's positioned, that would be 106 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 2: interesting to me. And it does help spread around like, 107 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 2: like so much of the piece is talking about like 108 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 2: the struggles of living as a young trans person in America, 109 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 2: and the fact that you can use a teen Vogue 110 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 2: photo shoot to like spread writing about that around the 111 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 2: internet is like super super useful. 112 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:24,599 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, I just want to like second what 113 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 6: Lex has to say. I think the work teen Vogue 114 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:30,239 Speaker 6: has been doing is really important. Like so many I mean, Garrison, 115 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 6: you know, like so much trans media is like independently 116 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 6: distributed and like dhy and I love us for that, 117 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 6: but it is always really heartening to see like mainstream 118 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 6: media institutions uplift trans voices the way teen Vogue has 119 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 6: been doing. 120 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 4: And it's also like Conde Nast as an institution, which 121 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 4: is like teen Vogue's parent company, is only one of 122 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 4: multiple media conglomerates that will very proudly like use trans 123 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 4: people in a representative way, like and like sell magazine 124 00:05:58,200 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 4: covers with trans people on it, like you you could 125 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 4: of Hunter Shaffer, for example, she'd been on the cover 126 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 4: of several vogues. But at the same time, Hunter Shaffer 127 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 4: also received a misgendering passport after the Trump admints. So like, 128 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 4: I think that if legacy media is unwilling to connect 129 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:14,919 Speaker 4: the dots between like profiting off of like the aesthetics 130 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 4: of trans people but not actually like talking about the 131 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 4: political underpinnings of like why trans people are even able 132 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:22,359 Speaker 4: to be visible at this time and like what the 133 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 4: you know trapdoors TERMALIGNE calls it of trans visibility means, 134 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 4: then it's like why you didn't do this work in 135 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:29,480 Speaker 4: the first place. So Vivian was like a really great 136 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 4: opportunity for us to like build on, like we've done 137 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 4: several photo shoots, particularly with trans Wombia and transgirls at 138 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 4: teen vague because we like feel very strongly, and Ellen 139 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 4: makes this point in the piece that like the way 140 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 4: that transm people are like objectified and commodified, and also 141 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 4: like the target of such extreme vitrial is something it 142 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 4: feels really important to take a stand against. It just 143 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 4: felt like doing this with Vivian, who's so high profile 144 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 4: but also hadn't had the opportunity yet to take control 145 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:58,920 Speaker 4: of her own narrative in the public eye, and with 146 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 4: this being her second ever for a separate photo shoot, 147 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 4: like it just felt like a really big opportunity that 148 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 4: was worth using as a big swing, you know. 149 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 2: No, like she is at like this center of this 150 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 2: like matrix of trans commodification in so many ways, Like 151 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 2: like this this special issue is the first time Vivian 152 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 2: was really like framed as the subject matter of like 153 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 2: any piece and like framed as her own person. For 154 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 2: the entirety of her adult life, she's been used as 155 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 2: this rhetorical object, like both by her dad, but as 156 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 2: well as like by people on the left who's like 157 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 2: objectified Vivian to use her as a bludgeon against her father. 158 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 2: And yeah, like people are very willing to like commodify 159 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 2: or use use trans people in certain ways, but but 160 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 2: to have like trans people writing about other trans people 161 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 2: in a way that frames them as a subject matter 162 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 2: is so important. 163 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, I think Vivian one of the things 164 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 6: that drew me to the story in the first place 165 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 6: is that Vivian's sort of case is such an interesting 166 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 6: microcosm of the transfom experience as a whole. Yeah, she's 167 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 6: incredibly talked out for something that is not her fault 168 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 6: and not under her control at all, in the same 169 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 6: way that right now on the national stage, like transfemininity 170 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 6: and transits at large, but specifically transfemininity is the like 171 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 6: problem to be spoken about, especially conservatives like Butler calls 172 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 6: it a phantasm like gender nonsense. 173 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 5: I read that book, you have my copy. I think 174 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 5: I'm almost certain I do that. 175 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 3: That makes sense. 176 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 5: Yeah, that makes certainly. 177 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 3: That's the trouble with gender, right, gender trouble. 178 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 5: Yeah, no, No, that's the original book. 179 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 1: It's she was afraid of gender. Thank you very much. 180 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 6: I have your book, but I haven't looked at it 181 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 6: in a long time except for to remember the word phantasm, 182 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 6: and so, yeah, I totally agree with what like said 183 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 6: of it's really exciting to sort of like take her 184 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 6: out of being used as a prop and give her 185 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 6: own voice back. I think one of the most exciting 186 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 6: moments in the piece to me is the moment where 187 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 6: I ask her about sort of the allegations that Elan 188 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 6: like shifted right word because of her, and she pushes 189 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 6: back against sort of that narrative very strongly, And I 190 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 6: think that is the way we've seen her being used 191 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:11,959 Speaker 6: both on the left and the rights as sort of 192 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 6: a this is why he's doing this. It's clearly the 193 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 6: fact that he has this twenty year old trans girl 194 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:19,319 Speaker 6: and she's like, actually, that's a crazy thing to say 195 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:22,079 Speaker 6: about it about a twenty year old well. 196 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:25,079 Speaker 2: And especially to like counter the narrative of her life 197 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 2: that's been driven by Walter Isaacson's twenty twenty three biography, 198 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 2: which is like so hostile and to have like a prominent, 199 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:35,719 Speaker 2: like a prominent biography like that, like trying to make 200 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 2: a narrative out of out of your existence, and it 201 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 2: was something you have like no like input, in no control, 202 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 2: and it's like so demeaning. It's also like a very 203 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 2: like you know, trans misogyny moment as well, like, yeah, 204 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 2: it is interesting how much of like Vivian is so relatable, Like, 205 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 2: like a lot of trans people have, shall I say, 206 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 2: challenging relationships with their parents, maybe not to this extreme, 207 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:03,439 Speaker 2: but but sometimes frankly right, like there's a lot of 208 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 2: people are forced to cut off contact with their family. 209 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. 210 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:08,559 Speaker 4: No, I've just been thinking a lot about this because, 211 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:11,679 Speaker 4: you know, Trump released yet another executive order. I think 212 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 4: that this one was today basically trying to codify allowing 213 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 4: trans youth to access gender affirming care as abuse quote unquote, 214 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 4: which is like something that the Republican Party has been 215 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:22,960 Speaker 4: flagging for months that they were going to do at 216 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 4: the federal level as well. It has already shown up 217 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 4: in the rhetoric around trans youth healthcare, which obviously is 218 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 4: going to be used as justification for targeting trans adults 219 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 4: access to health care and something that you know, I'm 220 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 4: the only transperson on my team. Something that kept coming 221 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 4: up in Vivian's story was that it was almost like 222 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 4: anyone could relate to this, because anyone can relate to 223 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 4: having like a shitty parent, an abusive parent, like a 224 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:48,959 Speaker 4: bad dad, whatever. And so I think there's an extent 225 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 4: to which the story has like a lot of value 226 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 4: in like forcing SIS people to really be confronted with 227 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 4: the fact that like how trans youth are treated like 228 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 4: objectively is like abusive. And it's not the access to 229 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 4: healthcare that is the abuse. It's like the way that 230 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 4: they're dismissed. It's the way they're belittled. It's the way 231 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 4: they can't even be like trusting their own parents to 232 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 4: be looking out for them, and to the extent that 233 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 4: they have to push themselves out into the world to 234 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 4: clarify that point. So like that's one aspect of it. 235 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 4: I totally agree with what you were both saying that 236 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 4: it is like a microcosm of the trans experience. But 237 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 4: I do think there's like this other valance for like 238 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 4: allowing her to like control how this is being perceived 239 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 4: or received sort of by CIS media and like SIS 240 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 4: like the CIS political spirit, which is like how trans 241 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:33,199 Speaker 4: people are just getting shoved into that over and over 242 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:35,440 Speaker 4: and over again with very little context, felt like a 243 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 4: really valuable thing to be able to do, given how 244 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 4: like frankly, so much of my coverage right now just 245 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 4: feels like it's like trying to raise attention to the 246 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 4: fact that like these are kids, these are young people. 247 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:47,680 Speaker 4: Like everyone should be able to relate to a young 248 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 4: person saying, like I have a bad parent and that 249 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 4: sucks and is a formative thing for me, Like that 250 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 4: is something that like other children are afforded the ability 251 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 4: to do, and like we just don't let trans kids 252 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 4: like have that as something that's part of their truth 253 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 4: when it's such a key part of like growing up 254 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 4: trans in a hostile household. 255 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 2: And something like Vivian talked about at length, is like, 256 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:21,079 Speaker 2: as someone who did transition as a minor, there's all 257 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 2: this like villainization around whether that's whether that's puberty suppressing hormones, 258 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 2: whether that's having HRT, and how like the landscape that 259 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 2: like me, like her Ella and like a lot of 260 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 2: people that our age like came out of is not 261 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 2: going to exist for the next generation of like trans kids, 262 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 2: or at least it's going to be very different, and 263 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 2: we need to do everything we can to stop it 264 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 2: from being as bad is what it looks like it's 265 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 2: going to be. And Vivian like talked about this at length, 266 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 2: and the peace with the restriction of puberty blockers, all 267 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,439 Speaker 2: this stuff in schools and this complete demonization of not 268 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 2: just the healthcare but also like the people like trans 269 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 2: kids as his own demon of America's that's like invading 270 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 2: or is like threatening. 271 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 3: So I think it is. 272 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 2: Really cool a Vivian do talk about that at length 273 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,079 Speaker 2: in the special teen Vogue Cool Photo Shoot article. 274 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 6: I will say, I think, yeah, I think it's so 275 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 6: important that that's talked about, and I'm glad she did. 276 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 6: I'm also really glad as someone who covers like trans 277 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 6: politics and news all the time, it was such a 278 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 6: breath of fresh air to be able to frame this 279 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 6: piece as like a look into what like the joy 280 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 6: of transition looks like and looking at like, yeah, Howard, 281 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:36,839 Speaker 6: transition has brought her closer to the life she wants 282 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 6: to be living. And I'm not that old, but like 283 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 6: talking to someone who's a few years younger than me 284 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 6: and who transitioned at an earlier stage in life gave 285 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 6: me like such a beautiful vision of what the future 286 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 6: could look like if we if we fix some of 287 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:53,559 Speaker 6: the bullshit that's going on these days. All Right, I'm 288 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 6: being clowned on in the chat. I'm not that much 289 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:57,960 Speaker 6: older than Vivian, is what I meant. And now I'm 290 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:01,199 Speaker 6: peaking my microphone and the podcast gonna sound terrible, but 291 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 6: what you said, I'm not that much older than Vivian, 292 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 6: but she started transitioning at a much younger stage of 293 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 6: life than me, and to see like what that has 294 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 6: done for her, and like the way, I don't know, 295 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 6: it was just really beautiful to talk to like a 296 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:17,680 Speaker 6: twenty year old girl and be like, oh, you're like trands. 297 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 6: But it's like it's like not actually that big of 298 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 6: a deal, and it like it also. 299 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 4: Like confirms a thing that like, I mean, I made 300 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 4: a joke about this earlier with like we love young 301 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 4: people that ship post, but like I think so much 302 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 4: of liberal and right wing talking points about like young 303 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 4: people in general like sees them as so humorless, like 304 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 4: they are like cancel culture, meaning like are nonsense, whereas 305 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 4: Vivian is so funny. Like we actually struggled to cut 306 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 4: jokes out of the piece, like Ellen and Ellen could 307 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 4: tell you we went back and forth for hours about 308 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 4: so many jokes that did not and just one liner 309 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 4: is like she's so quickie and so like so funny. 310 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 4: She's extremely funny. 311 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 3: A very dense style of humor, as in. 312 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 2: Like there's a lot of there's a lot packed in 313 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 2: like almost every other sentence. 314 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 6: Alex and I are both some of the fastest talking 315 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 6: people I know, and I I would put Vivian in 316 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 6: that same group of people who can keep up with 317 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 6: us or out talk me. 318 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 1: Uh huh. 319 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 2: That comes across in the writing too, like the way 320 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 2: that the interview is transcribed. You can read that pace 321 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 2: into the piece. 322 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 5: She's awesome. 323 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 6: So much of our editing was just like sort of 324 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 6: taking out yeah, like little jokes, or like she's twenty 325 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 6: so she is swearing all the time, or dude, the 326 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 6: amount of cursing I much love. 327 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: But also that was the editing process for this. 328 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 4: Was much less like stress and we're just like how 329 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 4: many f bombs are we keeping today? Hearthand emojis. 330 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 6: The way edits goes is you send in a piece 331 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 6: and the editors give you like change some stuff, and 332 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 6: then I get to look at a new draft and 333 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 6: I could be like, hey, why do you change that? 334 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 6: And then we go back and forth over and over 335 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 6: again until eventually it's not up to me anymore. But 336 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 6: at one point I did have to I did have 337 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 6: to say, actually, femboy is one word correct. It's different 338 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 6: from fem space boy and space She meant something specific, 339 00:15:57,400 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 6: and I felt really like I was bringing. 340 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 4: I'd like to verify I was not involved in the 341 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 4: grammatical edit of that. There were multiple editors who was hands. 342 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 3: That as a subject matter expert of. 343 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: What can I say? 344 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 6: And can excuse me? Kande nasked, theemboy means something. 345 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 4: No. 346 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 2: I am so happy that you have someone like Vivian 347 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 2: who's able to appreciate drag way more than what I'm 348 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 2: ever like able to even though I can like appreciate 349 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 2: it like on like a conceptual level. Having this like complete, 350 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 2: sincere like engrossment in it is so is so thrilling 351 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 2: because a significant portion of this piece is talking about 352 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 2: how much Vivian loves drag. 353 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 5: Oh my god, and and so much. 354 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 4: Ellen knows nothing about drag also, so that was like 355 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 4: a really good combo for all of us. 356 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 5: That was I. I Yeah. 357 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 6: I sat down with her and we started talking him 358 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 6: very very quickly. She brought up RuPaul's drag Race, and 359 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 6: I would just like she kept calling it RPDR, which 360 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 6: I'm pretty sure I've told my sources, Garrison, is that 361 00:16:57,280 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 6: something you call drag race? 362 00:16:58,720 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 5: Have you heard RPDR? 363 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: So it out loud. 364 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 3: I've never heard this. 365 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: No, okay, okay, whatever. 366 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:04,640 Speaker 4: What I'm want, what I'm here to say is as 367 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:08,160 Speaker 4: someone who actually watches drag Race, Ella, that is actually 368 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:10,719 Speaker 4: not that uncommon to refer to it that way. But 369 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 4: you know, we had two different roles as the two 370 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:17,199 Speaker 4: trans people whose brains were wiped by the story. Ella's 371 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:19,879 Speaker 4: job was to actually write the Peace of Mind was 372 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 4: to interface with Viviana. 373 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 5: About drag Race. 374 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 4: So clearly it all came together the way it was 375 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:25,359 Speaker 4: supposed to. 376 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:26,880 Speaker 6: I get at the very end of our first call, 377 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 6: I said, you, is there anything else you want to say? 378 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:31,639 Speaker 6: And she talked to me for another fifteen minutes about 379 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:33,959 Speaker 6: about drag Race, specifically. 380 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 3: Classic Rules, A Classic Rules. 381 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:38,160 Speaker 6: Yeah, like I know, I'm I like sort of meant 382 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 6: about your dad or about like any of the important things. 383 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 6: We talked about this that you're like, No, so in 384 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,680 Speaker 6: season fifteen of drag Race, that rules. 385 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 1: That's so cool, She's the best. 386 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 2: But no, I it's it's so funny that you you 387 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,920 Speaker 2: you talk about how like there's this there's this caricature 388 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 2: of like humorless trans people, which is very funny because 389 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 2: like all of like the biggest shit posters online right 390 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 2: now are mostly trans women. The trans comedy scene is huge, 391 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 2: and like this is something that Ivian talks about, like 392 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,400 Speaker 2: spending the COVID lockdown and like online queer communities and 393 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:19,640 Speaker 2: how how like the the like drama and like conflict 394 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:22,879 Speaker 2: in those spaces trains you for how to be like 395 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:26,439 Speaker 2: relief like funny and snappy. How fighting with with like 396 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:30,360 Speaker 2: like fellow queer teenagers like like prepared you for for 397 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 2: that which has like certainly been like my experience. 398 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 6: I mean, there's a reason you can sort of tell, 399 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 6: and I'm sure this applies to beyond trans people, but 400 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 6: you can sort of tell which social media you grew 401 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:42,120 Speaker 6: up on, like were if you were a totally Tumbler 402 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 6: teen or a Reddit teen or a four chanteen. You 403 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 6: can tell because your style of fighting and making jokes changes, 404 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 6: because it's it's it's such a deeply formative part of it. 405 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 6: And I I don't know what online forums the right 406 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 6: we're on growing up, but they were the wrong ones. 407 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 3: Well a lot of four Chan as well. 408 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 5: Sure, just the not funny parts not funny. 409 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 4: Yeah. 410 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 2: No, I'm still trying to untrain my like defensive way 411 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 2: of writing that I learned on Twitter because it's a 412 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 2: horrible style where hor have. 413 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 6: To like have like twelve prefaces exactly. Yeah, yeah, you're 414 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:20,879 Speaker 6: article one. I am not a racist. 415 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 2: Waffle pancaking the entire time, which is it's weird because 416 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 2: like it's like Twitter does have its own style of humor, 417 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 2: which I also like, also like picked up on, but 418 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 2: it also has that defensive style of writing, which which 419 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 2: needs to get untrained. But it is, you know, a work, 420 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 2: a work in progress. 421 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 6: I think it's downstream of Tumblr. I read to remain 422 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 6: strong on my stance that the Tumblr porn band ruined 423 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 6: the Internet. 424 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 3: No, absolutely absolutely. 425 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 2: I guess I'd like to talk a little bit more 426 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 2: about like the structure of the piece and how it 427 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,639 Speaker 2: succeeded so much in putting Vivian as a subject right, 428 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,439 Speaker 2: because like the first half is written in more of 429 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 2: like a traditional like article format to give context and 430 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 2: frame Vivian as like a person, but then halfway through 431 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 2: it switches to like a back and forth interview, which 432 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 2: allows Vivian to just speak for herself. And I think 433 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,400 Speaker 2: having both of those and not just one or the other, 434 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,439 Speaker 2: strengthens the piece entirely, and strengthens like being able to 435 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:26,360 Speaker 2: see Vivian as a complete person because like as I'm 436 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 2: as I'm getting the context like for her life and 437 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:32,400 Speaker 2: the political situation in the first half, then I get 438 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 2: to see how much she reminds me of like regular 439 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:39,199 Speaker 2: twenty something trans girls and you know, like half of 440 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 2: the friends I have. Though I do disagree on team Peta. 441 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 2: Pete's a bitch boy. It's team Gale all the way. 442 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 5: Thanks Contrary. 443 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:50,359 Speaker 2: All right, all right, all right, I'm excited that we 444 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:55,120 Speaker 2: agree on this, but those those sorts of like offhand 445 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,239 Speaker 2: comments and like there's other things that like give you 446 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 2: like a you know, a view into into this person. 447 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 2: It's so useful to have, like you know, like at 448 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 2: least fIF fifty percent of the piece be this like 449 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:07,360 Speaker 2: just straight interview. 450 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:11,119 Speaker 4: We unsurprisingly talked a lot about how we were going 451 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 4: to structure this piece and partially landed on Q and 452 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 4: A format for like we knew this was going to 453 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,159 Speaker 4: be a behemoth, like no matter how we tackled it, 454 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,679 Speaker 4: given the subject matter and then ultimately how long the 455 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:27,680 Speaker 4: transcript was, and you know, just like it. There were 456 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:30,119 Speaker 4: many aspects of this that like we were like, okay, 457 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 4: how do we how do we do this in a 458 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:33,360 Speaker 4: way that's going to read well to people, because something 459 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 4: we also think about a lot is like accessibility, Like 460 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,159 Speaker 4: young people famously hate reading now, but we wanted this 461 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 4: to actually be something that like a young person could 462 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:45,239 Speaker 4: sit down, dash through, still get some like you know, 463 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,120 Speaker 4: historical political context out of and still come away being 464 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,360 Speaker 4: like Haha, team Peta, team Gail or whatever the hell 465 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 4: right and so and. 466 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 2: Maybe have like subway surfers on like another phone at 467 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 2: the same time. 468 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 4: Exactly, yes, exactly exactly, And then I would say the 469 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,639 Speaker 4: I want Ella to talk about the transcript and like 470 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 4: interview stuff, but like the intro I think is probably 471 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 4: where I spent the most of my time editing this piece, 472 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 4: and like adding stuff and a lot of adding stuff. 473 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 4: It ballooned like we wanted this to be luch shorter 474 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 4: than it was, and then it just kept feeling like 475 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 4: there were more pieces to really tie it together. But 476 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:21,920 Speaker 4: I would say, like, the reason that was the case 477 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 4: is because it was a really hard line to walk 478 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 4: to acknowledge that like people would be clicking on this 479 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 4: in part because of Elon, but that we wanted to 480 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:34,119 Speaker 4: like trick them into coming for Elon, but staying for Vivian, yeah, like. 481 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 2: It's it's not about Elon nor like yeah, should it be? 482 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 1: Yeah? 483 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:39,399 Speaker 4: Right, and so like when like Ellen and I had 484 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:43,120 Speaker 4: a zoom with Vivian and what November was the first one? 485 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:43,920 Speaker 1: Or was that? I think? 486 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 4: So yeah November December to just like so she could 487 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,880 Speaker 4: kind of get our vibe and just kind of suss 488 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 4: out if she was willing to consider this at all. 489 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 4: And one of the earliest things she said was like, 490 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 4: I don't really want to talk about him. I don't 491 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 4: want this to be about him, And we were really 492 00:22:57,880 --> 00:22:59,639 Speaker 4: downe for that, like we don't think that her story 493 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 4: is about him. Ultimately, it felt really important, and it 494 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 4: was also challenging to make sure that we felt like 495 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 4: people were coming away with it from this without like 496 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 4: a garbled interpretation of what the stakes were for her 497 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 4: to be coming forward like we wanted it to be, 498 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 4: especially right now while so much of mainstream media is 499 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:22,399 Speaker 4: really fumbling their coverage of like politics at this moment, 500 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 4: it felt really important to be. 501 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 3: Like trans politics, especially. 502 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 4: Especially and then also just like all of it, So 503 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 4: like all of it and then especially trans politics, we 504 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 4: just really wanted the intro to be like as strong 505 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 4: and also like informative, and also like kind of funny, 506 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 4: and also like just all the things because and I 507 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:40,920 Speaker 4: would say that probably took the most time. 508 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:42,360 Speaker 1: Correct me if I'm wrong, but. 509 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean I think the intro started off as 510 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 6: probably an eighth of the piece, and yeah, now is 511 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:51,880 Speaker 6: closer to a half of the piece. 512 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 5: And there were so many hands on it. I wrote like. 513 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,719 Speaker 6: Sort of a very loose like skeleton of what that 514 00:23:57,760 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 6: intro ended up being. 515 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 1: And I would say, like, it wasn't that many people 516 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 1: outing text. It was mostly means, it. 517 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:05,200 Speaker 5: Was mostly legs. 518 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 6: But part of that is because I mean everything like said, 519 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 6: but also that Musk is currently a high level government 520 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 6: official and is in the news all the time. I mean, 521 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 6: when we started writing the intro said that Musk had 522 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,959 Speaker 6: thirteen children, and then we had to update that twice. 523 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 3: New kid just dropped. Yeah. 524 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 6: Over the edit process, things wouldn't stop happening. And then 525 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 6: also Vivian wouldn't stop posting, which was a little bit frustrating. 526 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,400 Speaker 5: At one point I had to DM or I said, hey, 527 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:35,640 Speaker 5: if you. 528 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 6: Get any more information, can you please just tell me 529 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 6: and not post it on threads? 530 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 5: And she said, oh, totally. 531 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,360 Speaker 3: That girl is a poster post had hard for. 532 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,399 Speaker 6: Sure, But yeah, I mean, I think I really love 533 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 6: the balance the piece found it in the end. Early on, 534 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:55,159 Speaker 6: when we were talking about structure, I think I pushed 535 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 6: for more of a standard profile, mostly because you know, 536 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 6: then I get to show off my writing scales more 537 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 6: and I liked to write. But after talking to Vivian, 538 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 6: even after our early pre interview, but certainly after the 539 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,440 Speaker 6: full interview where I sat with her for a very 540 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:11,120 Speaker 6: long time over zoom in a fourteen hour time difference, 541 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 6: I immediate it was like, no, if I write this out, 542 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 6: it's going to be mostly dialogue anyway, because her voice 543 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 6: she has, she's so voicy, and it's so fun to 544 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 6: keep it in that voice. 545 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:23,639 Speaker 3: She's a very very distinctive voice. 546 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, and so do you, Ella, And so like 547 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 4: it's like that's really the strength of the piece in 548 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 4: so many ways, is that like people come away with it. 549 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,199 Speaker 4: It doesn't feel like you're in the background or like 550 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,440 Speaker 4: hiding behind something when you're writing this piece, Like it 551 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:37,880 Speaker 4: very much feels like the success of it is because. 552 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 1: You are a part of it. 553 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 4: And The New York Times reported that this was Ella's 554 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 4: first che lance article. So I just wanted to add 555 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,679 Speaker 4: that you know, Ella kind of did her did her 556 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:48,959 Speaker 4: big one with her first article. 557 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 5: Thanks all. 558 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 6: This is now everything I've read a big one. The 559 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 6: next fifteen years will be underwhelming. 560 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:56,160 Speaker 3: It's all downstream from here. 561 00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:00,400 Speaker 6: Woo, it's not true, Baron Trump, I'm coming for you. 562 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 2: You're gonna re enroll at NYU exactly. 563 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 5: They'll never see me coming. 564 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,919 Speaker 2: I am waiting for him to get fixed by like 565 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 2: a bisexual she they it's gotta happen, right, No, I 566 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 2: don't think something. 567 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,879 Speaker 6: I don't know Obama was like into a bisexual she 568 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,120 Speaker 6: they and he's still yeah, bombed the Middle East or whatever. 569 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 2: But no, like like mainstream coverage is just completely failure 570 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,120 Speaker 2: and trans people right now. I got so mad at 571 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 2: a Washington Post article yesterday that I that I skeedd 572 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:29,880 Speaker 2: about it, something I never do. 573 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,440 Speaker 1: Was it the sports one yes playing. 574 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,879 Speaker 2: After President Donald Trump band transgender girls from competing in 575 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,639 Speaker 2: girls sports, of Virginia high schooler joins the boys team. 576 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 2: She wasn't gonna let the President's executive order stop her. 577 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:48,360 Speaker 2: Framed is like a feel good story, fucking infuriating and it's. 578 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 4: So like transparent like and I again I feel like 579 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 4: I keep. 580 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,159 Speaker 1: Bringing the system into the space. I'm really sorry. 581 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 4: One of my like cist colleagues was like, this is disgusting. 582 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:58,680 Speaker 4: Why did they write this like a feel good story? 583 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 4: And it's like, my thing is is if if anyone 584 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,440 Speaker 4: with some amount of criticals thinking skills can see exactly 585 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 4: through what you're doing, why even do it? Like it's 586 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 4: so transparent like the way that that story was. 587 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 1: Written, because it gets clicked. 588 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,400 Speaker 4: I mean, I guess you know what got clicks was Vivian. 589 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 4: So I actually don't know about that. 590 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 5: That's true and say that and say that, and I 591 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 5: did and I will. 592 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:19,919 Speaker 2: Do you want to talk about the length of the 593 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,120 Speaker 2: transcript because I am curious how long Vivian talked for? 594 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 5: Am I am I allowed to say that? 595 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:25,880 Speaker 4: Yeah? 596 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 5: I think I'm legally say can we explain why. 597 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: When we're not recording, I can explain why? 598 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 6: Okay, I think I got to say most of what 599 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:35,359 Speaker 6: I want to say. I mean, I think Vivian's just 600 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 6: like a delightful person and I'm really excited for her 601 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 6: that she gets her moment in the spotlight and that 602 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,119 Speaker 6: hopefully this like helps her build herself as a public 603 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 6: figure outside of and away from Elon Musk and she 604 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 6: has all of these aspirations to perform and model, and 605 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 6: I hope she gets to do Her and a Winter 606 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 6: Drag one day soon. 607 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 3: I love that movie. 608 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 2: It's a great movie. Hi and a Windsor Lex. Do 609 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,440 Speaker 2: you want to plug your little outlet? 610 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 3: What was this teen Vogue? 611 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I don't know if anyone's heard. 612 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 4: Actually so frequently people haven't heard of it, so it's 613 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 4: actually fine. 614 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,399 Speaker 1: Yes, you can find us at teen vogue dot com. 615 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 4: We have no paywall, we have a fact checking department. 616 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 4: Most of mainstream media is not doing it like us, 617 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 4: if you consider those two points. 618 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:27,399 Speaker 2: So yeah, labor politics, especially teen Vogue's been phenomenal the 619 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:28,680 Speaker 2: past like eight years. 620 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 1: Yep. 621 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:30,359 Speaker 6: So true. 622 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,360 Speaker 4: If you love Kim Kelly, she is our labor columnist, 623 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,160 Speaker 4: so comes through. I also do some of our labor coverage, 624 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 4: but like definitely not today than Kim does. 625 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm on the things. I'm on the socials. Yeah, 626 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 1: that's it. That's all I had. Little Ella. 627 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 3: Where can people find you on the worldwide Web? 628 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 6: I'm on on Instagram and actually everything app as Ella 629 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 6: Yurman or Ella dot Yeerman on Instagram. 630 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 2: We're gonna get you on Blue Sky. One of these 631 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 2: days we can fix the vibes. 632 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 6: I'm on Blue Sky. I just forget about to do it, 633 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 6: can we? I suffered through twenty twelve Tumbler once. I 634 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 6: don't need to do it again. 635 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 4: That is so not the vibe. I wish it were. 636 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 4: But it's not a clue. 637 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 3: Scot No, it's more twenty nineteen Twitter. 638 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. 639 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 6: You can also find my show at going Down TV 640 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 6: on Instagram, Going Down the Show on YouTube, Going Down 641 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 6: Show on Patreon. 642 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 5: I don't know. I make a transgender daily show. You 643 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 5: guys know about it. 644 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 3: New studio looks great. 645 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 6: It's so fun. We got to get you on there. 646 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 6: We got to get you to come hang out. 647 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 2: Okay, well I will. I will be in town shortly 648 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 2: so hell yeah. 649 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 1: Oh fun. 650 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 4: I go to the taping so I can crash. That'll 651 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 4: be fun. You should do it. Hell yeah, we did, 652 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 4: we do it. 653 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, We're done. 654 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 7: It could happen. 655 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 3: Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 656 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 7: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 657 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 7: Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out from the iHeartRadio app, 658 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,480 Speaker 7: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 659 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 7: now find sources for it could happen here, listed directly 660 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 7: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.