WEBVTT - How to be less anxious, with Olga Khazan 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:09.280 Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning, 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:15.120 This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's 0:00:15.160 --> 0:00:17.720 episode is going to be a longer one part of 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:21.320 the series where I interview fascinating people about how they 0:00:21.360 --> 0:00:24.120 take their days from great to awesome and how the 0:00:24.160 --> 0:00:27.120 rest of us can as well. So today I am 0:00:27.160 --> 0:00:30.440 delighted to welcome Olga Hasan to the show. Olga is 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:32.880 the author of a brand new book that is called 0:00:33.120 --> 0:00:36.720 Me But Better and about whether it is possible to 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:38.680 change your personality. 0:00:38.800 --> 0:00:40.400 So, Olga, welcome to the show. 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:41.879 Yeah, thanks so much for having me. 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:45.120 Yeah, so, why don't you introduce yourself to our listeners. 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:46.280 Tell us a little bit about you. 0:00:46.760 --> 0:00:49.520 Yeah, Well, I'm Olga has On. I'm a staff writer 0:00:49.600 --> 0:00:53.400 at The Atlantic magazine. I've been there for more than 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:57.080 a decade now, and I'm the author of two books, 0:00:57.440 --> 0:01:00.400 and Me But Better is my most recent book. It's 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:03.280 based on a magazine cover story that I wrote a 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:06.000 couple of years ago, and it's based on my own 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:09.880 personal experience of trying to change my personality for the better. 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:13.280 Which is interesting, I mean, because you seem like a. 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:17.920 Perfectly lovely person, so very curious what inspired this, what 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:20.840 made you think about changing your personality? 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:23.080 Yeah, well, thank you. Well so, yeah, So the way 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:25.920 you seem to other people is one element of personality, 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:28.800 but another element of personality is how you feel, and 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:31.600 whether you are able to accomplish your goals in the 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:33.720 way that you would like, and whether you enjoy your life. 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:37.080 And what I found was that often my reactions to 0:01:37.200 --> 0:01:40.679 things were sort of not helping me. They were kind 0:01:40.680 --> 0:01:43.840 of holding me back. So I would have a perfectly 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:47.440 fine day, but with maybe some minor setbacks. In the 0:01:47.480 --> 0:01:49.279 intro of the book, I talk about a day where 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:52.280 I got a bad haircut and then got photos taken 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:55.360 that didn't look good, and then I got stuck in traffic, 0:01:56.040 --> 0:01:59.680 and all of those things really just kind of ate 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:02.560 away me until I had this like huge meltdown that 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:05.200 was totally out of proportion to what was going on. 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:08.520 And I kind of realized that that variations on that 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:12.200 happened kind of a lot, and I wanted to see 0:02:12.200 --> 0:02:13.880 what I could do about that. So that is kind 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:15.960 of what started me out on my journey. 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:18.280 Yeah, I mean, do you think that's a common thing 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:21.160 of people sort of having that tendency to melt down over. 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:23.519 I mean, what are in essence first world problems? 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:27.440 Yeah, I mean, so it's that tendency is related to 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:31.240 the personality trait of neuroticism, which is basically just like 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:35.680 depression and anxiety, and a component of that is like 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:38.960 this this feeling that like you get overwhelmed easily, Like 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:42.680 when too many things happen, You're not like, bless this mess, 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:45.120 what a day. You're just like, oh my god, I 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:48.000 can't take it anymore, you know. And so I was 0:02:48.040 --> 0:02:50.880 definitely in that second category, and I was trying to 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:54.120 kind of get out of that and more into the 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:56.120 blessed this mess territory. 0:02:56.480 --> 0:03:00.679 Yes, we all need the motivational quotes up on the wall, right, Yes, yeah, 0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:03.000 a cross stitch sampler saying those things. 0:03:03.280 --> 0:03:04.440 Well, but here's the question for you. 0:03:04.480 --> 0:03:07.720 I mean, are some personalities better than others? I mean, 0:03:07.800 --> 0:03:09.839 how can we even think about this? 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:14.919 Yeah, So there's five traits that make up personality. So 0:03:14.960 --> 0:03:22.000 it's openness to experiences, conscientiousness, extroversion, agreeableness, and then actually 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:25.280 the opposite of neuroticism, emotional stability, is the one that 0:03:25.320 --> 0:03:29.240 you want to have, and generally being higher on all 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:32.880 five of those traits is considered like more adaptive in 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:36.720 science terms, or kind of just healthier and better for you. 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:39.440 So people who are a little bit more agreeable, a 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:42.280 little bit more conscientious, they tend to just like be 0:03:42.360 --> 0:03:45.040 a little bit more successful, Like they make more money, 0:03:45.080 --> 0:03:49.200 they have more friends, they you know, are healthier. So 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:51.480 you do kind of want to be higher on all 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:54.480 of those traits, but you don't necessarily want to be 0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:56.760 like all the way at the extreme one hundred percent 0:03:57.000 --> 0:04:00.000 more so than everyone else, because that can also start 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:03.000 to be you know, a little bit a little bit off, 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:06.600 like obsessive or just just kind of not quite right. 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:09.960 Yeah, as somebody who is one hundred percent agreeable would 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:11.480 be something of a doormat. 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:14.960 I say, exactly exactly. You want to be disagreeable sometimes. 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:17.440 Yeah, sometimes when you're disagreeing with the right things to 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:20.640 disagree with. But I mean, why are we who we are? 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:24.279 I mean, is this sort of in the genetic mix 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:26.680 or how we're raised? I mean, how do we get 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:27.760 our personalities? 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:31.880 Yeah, so we get about forty to sixty percent of 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:36.120 our personalities from our parents. Doesn't mean we're exactly like 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:39.120 our parents, but just that's the part that's sort of inherited. 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:42.440 It's in our genes. So if your parents are sort 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:45.360 of extreme extroverts, there's a good chance that you will 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:49.279 also be somewhat extroverted. But there's like a good chunk 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:51.720 of that about half that is also just comes from 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:56.000 your environment. And it's not totally how your parents raised 0:04:56.000 --> 0:04:58.920 you either. It's sort of like where you grew up, 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:01.720 who your friends are, what kind of job you end 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:05.080 up having, whether you get married, you know, what kind 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:08.640 of work you pursue, whether you go to college. All 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:11.960 of those things kind of form your personality and develop 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:14.719 who you are as a person. And it's it's really 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:17.960 hard to say, like which of those factors is the 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:21.240 most important. One researcher described it to me as more 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:24.680 like a tapestry where everything kind of comes together and 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:26.280 creates kind of who you are. 0:05:27.640 --> 0:05:29.400 Yeah, well that's an interesting thing to think about. 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:34.440 I mean, what is personality then, and like the definition 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:40.440 of personality versus just how I'm sort of responding to 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:44.640 my life or how you know, things come to me. 0:05:44.520 --> 0:05:47.000 I guess what makes something personality? 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:48.000 Oh that's interesting. 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:48.480 Yeah. 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:52.440 So for a while there there were some researchers like 0:05:52.520 --> 0:05:55.880 Carol Dweck was one of them who basically thought like, 0:05:55.920 --> 0:05:58.760 there's no such thing as personality, and all we do 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:02.599 is just respond to situations like, something bad happens, you 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:04.839 respond this way. Something good happens, you respond that way. 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:08.240 But I think it's kind of both. So it's it's 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:12.560 sort of like how you typically respond to situations, right, 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:16.720 And kind of other researchers who are not of that 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:20.280 school kind of think it's also personality. One way of 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:22.839 looking at it as sort of how you pursue goals, 0:06:23.520 --> 0:06:26.760 and and that personality actually helps you attain your goals. 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:30.719 So if you think about a trait like conscientiousness, you know, 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:35.920 always being on time, being super organized, you know, kind 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:39.479 of knowing where all of your tax forms are, those 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:43.039 things help you achieve certain goals. You probably, you know, 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:45.200 are going to be on time to your job interview, 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:47.400 so you're going to get that job. You know, you 0:06:47.400 --> 0:06:49.200 probably are going to eat right, and so you're going 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:51.920 to live a little bit longer. If those are goals 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:54.800 that you have, that element of your personality helps you 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:58.320 pursue your goals. So that's kind of a newer way 0:06:58.360 --> 0:07:01.839 of thinking about it as opposed to things happen and 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:04.200 we react in various ways. 0:07:04.800 --> 0:07:07.400 Yeah, and the point of your book is that you 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:10.200 might be able to actually change some of these. I 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:11.880 mean it sounds like, again, you know, if forty to 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:15.520 sixty percent is from your genetic background, it's pretty hard 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:19.280 to change that. But that still leaves a reasonable chunk 0:07:19.400 --> 0:07:22.680 that we might be able to modify slightly. I mean, 0:07:24.000 --> 0:07:27.800 is this doable? I'm just thinking about something like being conscientious. 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:30.800 I mean, it does, in fact help to know where 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:32.840 your tax forms are and to know how to get 0:07:32.880 --> 0:07:35.000 to a job interview on time. But if you're not 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:39.160 naturally inclined that way, I mean, how would one even 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:42.120 go about becoming the sort of person who knows where 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:43.120 their tax forms are? 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:48.080 Yeah? So I actually started out really conscientious, so that 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:50.520 wasn't a trait that I tried to change personally. But 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:53.720 I did interview a lot of people who became conscientious 0:07:53.760 --> 0:07:57.600 for the book, and they were all exactly what you describe, 0:07:57.680 --> 0:07:59.960 like they had no idea how to start. You know. 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:02.640 One of them was like a freelance writer who quit 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:05.000 her job to freelance write and then didn't end up 0:08:05.000 --> 0:08:07.360 doing any writing because she just like was like, I 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:09.240 don't know how do I begin? Where do I go 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:12.320 from here. Another one was like this this guy who 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:16.040 wanted to become a professional psychologist, but he had never 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:19.160 studied for a test before or written a paper by 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:22.360 the time he got to college. So what they did 0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:25.160 is they just like kind of for conscientiousness in particular, 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:29.080 they just set up systems that worked for them. Like 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:32.760 they really had to sit down and be like, Okay, 0:08:32.760 --> 0:08:34.800 I am going to make a calendar of everything I 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:36.800 have to do today, and I'm going to assign everything 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:39.960 to a time slot. You know. The guy who wanted 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:44.160 to become a psychologist, he made you know, note cards 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:45.959 of every single word that could be on the gre 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:49.240 and you know, quizzed himself all day. He found a 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:54.160 study partner and they just like read like psychology texts 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:55.319 into the night together. 0:08:56.400 --> 0:08:56.640 You know. 0:08:56.720 --> 0:08:59.040 He bought a book called how to Make A's or 0:08:59.080 --> 0:09:02.680 something like that and just like yeah, I read it 0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:04.320 and was like, Okay, I'm going to study. I'm going 0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:08.000 to like highlight, I'm gonna take notes. You know. So 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:10.200 for conscientiousness, it is one of those things where if 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:13.959 you set up systems that will help you to succeed, 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:17.480 you actually can become conscientious even if you're not like 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:21.480 don't have necessarily a huge shift in mindset. It's one 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:25.600 where really the habits come first and then the conscientiousness 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:26.280 kind of follows. 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:27.280 Yeah. 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:29.319 Yeah, The good news is there's so much out there 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:32.200 in the world of different systems and ideas and like that. 0:09:32.280 --> 0:09:34.040 There is a book on how to make a's that 0:09:34.080 --> 0:09:36.640 breaks it down for someone who has not done that. 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:40.520 But yeah, you have to decide to avail yourself of 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:40.800 all this. 0:09:40.840 --> 0:09:42.840 Well, we're going to take a quick ad break and 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:45.080 I will be back with more from Olga Hassan. 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:53.319 Well, we are back. 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:55.840 I am interviewing Olga Hassan, who is the author of 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:58.959 the brand new book Me But Better, about the science 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:03.400 of personality change. So we'll go to a different aspect 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:06.400 of personality, the one about being more anxious, like somebody 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:08.640 who is more temperamentally anxious. That's when you cover a 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:11.480 bit more in the book and your own personal experiences 0:10:11.520 --> 0:10:15.600 of changing this. So let's say someone is temperamentally anxious, 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:19.600 not describing either of us. I am sure, but what 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:23.320 can you do to actually change this tendency of yours? 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:27.680 People really hate this suggestion, anxious people in particular. But 0:10:27.960 --> 0:10:31.800 all of the research and all of the strategies and 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:35.439 everything that I read basically comes back down to mindfulness. 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:39.920 People don't want to hear that. They're like, I hate meditation, 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:43.840 I hate mindfulness, Give me something else. Now. It's true 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:48.080 that neuroticism scores do go down with things like antidepressants. 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:51.480 I think, like there was a study on zoloft, which 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:56.760 actually reduces neuroticism. Therapy can also reduce neuroticism. But if 0:10:56.760 --> 0:10:59.040 you just don't want to deal with any of that 0:10:59.080 --> 0:11:01.400 and want to do something your own, it really does 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:06.640 come down to mindfulness and meditation practices that are really 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:10.560 proven to bring down anxiety and depression sometimes as well 0:11:10.640 --> 0:11:11.320 as lexipro. 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:13.439 Yeah, well what does that look like then? 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:15.160 So I says, Okay, I want to be more mindful 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:17.679 and meditate and hopefully cure my anxiety. 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:21.200 What should somebody who's thinking about that actually do. Yeah? 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:27.000 So I took an intensive meditation class called MBSR and 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:31.320 that involved meditating for about forty five minutes a day. 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:34.679 And the kind of meditation that they did. There's all 0:11:34.679 --> 0:11:38.520 different kinds of meditation. This one was very kind of basic. 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:42.000 You just sit and in the quiet and follow your 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:45.160 breath and it's that same thing of like when thoughts arise, 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:49.400 just watch them pass by like clouds. Very difficult to do, 0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:53.400 you know, and it is. It is challenging, like and 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:56.560 I found it challenging pretty much the whole time that 0:11:56.600 --> 0:11:59.120 I that I did it. I will say though, that 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:03.760 my depressed score went down after I completed the class. 0:12:04.040 --> 0:12:08.480 My anxiety also went down, but not a ton. I 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:12.840 still scored very high on anxiety at the end of it, 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:15.880 I think, honestly, like I am just so anxious that 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:18.400 it worked a little bit, but not all the way. 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:22.360 But yeah, I mean it is something. And other people 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:24.400 in my class, you know, they were like, oh, I'm 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:27.680 totally cured, Like, you know, it works differently for different people. 0:12:27.720 --> 0:12:31.400 But yeah, unfortunately it is just sort of like sitting 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:34.800 there and you know, trying to follow your breath. You know, 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:39.040 there's other kinds too. There's loving kindness. Meditation is sort 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:42.880 of like repeating kind phrases to yourself and others. Some 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:45.240 people find that a little bit easier because there's actually 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:48.960 something to focus on that's not just your breath. And 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:53.440 also some types of yoga can be considered mindfulness, and 0:12:53.640 --> 0:12:56.600 that's more of like a moving meditation I'm not talking 0:12:56.760 --> 0:12:58.880 here about like core power where you're like listening to 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:02.400 Britney Spears, but like sort of just like a slower 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:05.440 yoga where you're like really focusing on the breath and 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:05.960 the movement. 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:06.840 Yeah. 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:09.760 Well, maybe listening to Britney Spears makes some people less anxious. 0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:10.280 I don't know. 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:13.200 So I tried to listen to music during my meditation 0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:14.920 class and they were like, do do that? 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:16.080 Like, don't you allowed to do that? 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:16.400 Yeah? 0:13:16.679 --> 0:13:17.120 Not allowed? 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:19.760 Yeah, well, I mean it's forty five minutes the minimum 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:21.199 viable dose or is there? 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:23.839 Is it possible to No? 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:27.120 No, And honestly, the minimal minimum Bible dose is however 0:13:27.200 --> 0:13:30.280 much time you have. If you have five minutes, take 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:34.240 the five minutes, do some deep breathing exercises, you know, 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:37.000 try to breathe in, you know, hold it for four counts, 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:39.240 breathe out for you know, five counts. I forget what 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:42.679 the exact counts are, you know, but do some slow breathing. 0:13:43.240 --> 0:13:45.720 Even if you have let's say you're you're taking a shower, 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:48.800 you just have like those whatever five six minutes to 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:51.680 take a shower. Try to have a mindful shower where 0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:53.560 you just focus on how good it feels to be 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:56.720 in the hot water. Yeah, it's definitely. You do not 0:13:56.800 --> 0:13:58.440 have to commit to forty five minutes a day. 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:00.880 That's good because a lot of people don't have forty 0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:03.160 five minutes a day. People would not do it, would 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:03.679 not do it. 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:07.480 Yeah, well, I'm sure there's different stages of life where 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:11.040 this is more possible and less possible. But let's talk 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:13.720 about introversion and extroversion because that is another one of 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:18.960 the big five personality traits that you know, we've been 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:22.160 learning over the years in recent decades more about what 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:26.000 it means to be introverted and extroverted. Is there any 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:29.600 reason to change that or to try to push oneself 0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:31.520 one way or the other. Yeah. 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:34.320 So when I first started this, I really identified very 0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:37.360 strongly as an introvert, and so I was a little 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:42.120 bit resistant kind of of the idea. I kind of 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:46.000 wanted more friends and more socializing, but I also wanted 0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:49.440 to stay true to like my introversion, you know. And 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:52.600 what I really found is that the research kind of 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:57.120 consistently shows that extroverts are happier. And even if you 0:14:57.160 --> 0:15:00.400 take introverts and tell them to go be extra proverted 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:04.400 for a few minutes, they come back happier, and they 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:07.600 also say that they felt truer to themselves when they 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:10.720 were being extroverted, like that they felt more authentic, which 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:13.760 doesn't seem to make sense. But basically, what all this 0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:16.920 research is pointing to is the fact that social connections 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:20.440 really do make us happy. Even if we still have 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:23.440 that restorative need to be an introvert at the end 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:25.560 of the day and like sip our tea and read 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:29.200 our book, we still need that connection with society and 0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:32.400 we can't just like be by ourselves all the time. 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:36.880 So for me, it was really pushing myself to kind 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:42.160 of take on more activities, develop some hobbies, and really socialize, 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:45.360 you know, quite a bit more than what I was doing. 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:49.760 Yeah, so what would somebody do if they identify that 0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:52.000 as something they'd like to push themselves a little bit on. 0:15:52.360 --> 0:15:55.320 I would really recommend signing up for something that you 0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:59.920 have to go to somewhat regularly. It is really hard 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:04.120 to in this day and age, commit to socializing if 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:06.280 what you're doing is like texting people to be like 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:08.440 let's get drinks, and you're all like trying to find 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:10.640 a time, and like no one has time, and you 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:12.440 don't end up doing it and everyone cancels at the 0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:15.840 last minute. Instead, I would sign up for like a 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:20.280 class or some kind of activity where you prepaid it's 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:23.240 hard to get out of other people are relying on you, 0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:26.320 or like I took improv and you actually can't miss 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:29.600 more than two classes, so it'sych. Even if you don't 0:16:29.640 --> 0:16:32.920 feel like going, you better go. And honestly, that was 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:35.160 actually kind of a good commitment device for me, because 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:37.720 I think there were way too many days where after 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:40.000 a long day at work, I didn't really feel like going. 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:43.040 But what happens is that, like if you actually force 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:47.120 yourself to go and set aside that time for having fun, 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:50.360 as like dorky as that sounds, you will have a 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:52.920 good time, Like you will feel better afterwards. You will 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:56.720 get that mood boost that extroverts feel. You just won't 0:16:56.760 --> 0:16:58.800 realize it, you know, beforehand. 0:16:59.200 --> 0:16:59.480 Yeah. 0:16:59.760 --> 0:17:03.200 Yeah, Well, one of my biggest tips I'm always sharing 0:17:03.200 --> 0:17:06.720 with people is to take one night for you. And 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:08.920 I always sort of explain this as like, well, people 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:11.480 need something in their lives besides work and caring for 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:15.200 family members. But you know, I'm always saying we'll make 0:17:15.240 --> 0:17:18.680 it as a commitment because you know, otherwise it won't 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:20.520 rise up the hierarchy. Like your boss wants you to 0:17:20.520 --> 0:17:22.280 stay late, you don't be like, yeah, I have time 0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:24.760 with my bathtub tonight, you know, like you're not gonna 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:27.359 say that, you'd be like, but if you have this 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:30.040 improv class that you literally cannot miss, like you have 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:32.520 a reason to push back. Or if you know your 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:34.240 kid wants you to drive them to the mall, there's 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:35.040 a reason. 0:17:34.760 --> 0:17:35.639 To push back. 0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:40.680 And so but the reason it is also making a commitment. 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:42.840 Then you go and you get the benefit of it. 0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:45.400 And so it sounds like that's what you discovered as. 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:46.080 Well, exactly. 0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:48.880 Yeah, all right, well let's take one more quick ad 0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:56.800 break and I will be back with more from Olga. 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:00.000 Well we are back. I am talking with Olga Haza, 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:02.399 who is the author of the brand new book Me 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:06.400 But Better about the science of personality Change. So are 0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:09.000 you actually doing anything different in your day to day 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:11.560 life now? Olga, as, there is a result of writing 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:13.680 this book, but I know other things have changed too 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:16.280 since you wrote. I mean, you had a kid, for instance, 0:18:16.400 --> 0:18:18.480 that probably had a bigger change on your day to 0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:19.880 day life than anything you did. 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:22.360 Yeah, so I did have a baby, so I am 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:25.639 not meditating for forty five minutes a day anymore, unless 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:30.080 you count watching the baby like try to eat garbage, 0:18:30.160 --> 0:18:32.760 which he really loves to do, and that can be 0:18:32.840 --> 0:18:35.720 kind of meditative because you're like closing the garbage can. 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:39.320 He's opening the garbage can, you're closing it. Anyway, there's 0:18:39.320 --> 0:18:43.440 like a Buddhist lesson in there, I'm sure. But one 0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:47.000 thing I had I do do is that I really 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:49.400 have made it a point to reach out to other 0:18:49.520 --> 0:18:52.760 moms and try to connect with other moms, even if 0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:55.000 it's just like a short playdate or like a short 0:18:56.520 --> 0:18:59.920 honestly like get together, or just like coffee or whatever else. 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:03.560 And that is really something that's different from before I 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:07.280 started this project. I really like, I really try to 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:10.760 do something like that at least once a week, because 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:13.399 I found that it is like more restorative for me 0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:18.000 to have some social interaction, some kind of shared experience 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:21.600 with someone else. It is even when I'm really tired, 0:19:21.760 --> 0:19:24.359 it feels better to do that than it does just 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:28.400 to like sit by myself and like watch TV. And 0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:30.879 I think that has really been a huge change. I 0:19:30.960 --> 0:19:34.280 just realized that I do I do kind of need 0:19:34.320 --> 0:19:38.200 some social interaction like, I'm not one hundred percent introverted, 0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:40.880 you know, I'm like maybe thirty percent or forty percent 0:19:40.960 --> 0:19:44.360 or something like that. But yeah, so that's that's something 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:46.480 that I do now that I've sort of kept up. 0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:50.480 I would say from this project excellent. 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:52.800 Well, we always like to talk with people about their 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:54.640 daily routines on this podcast. 0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:55.960 I'm wondering if you have any. 0:19:56.240 --> 0:19:57.840 I mean, it could be a morning routine, although I 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:00.400 know that sometimes when people have very young children, morning 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:02.560 routines is a bit of a you know, the baby 0:20:02.560 --> 0:20:05.760 wakes up, that is the morning routine. But I'm curious 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:08.760 if you have any daily routines that help you get 0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:09.880 things done in your life. 0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:12.840 Yeah, well so yeah, my days kind of like go, 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:15.720 go go from the minute the baby wakes up. You know. 0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:19.240 I would say, my my, I have like a good 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:22.040 wind down routine at the end of the day that 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:25.280 I that I think is helpful. So we put him 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:28.720 to bed around seven thirty or eight, and then I 0:20:28.760 --> 0:20:32.040 actually work out every day. I find that it is 0:20:32.119 --> 0:20:35.200