1 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: You're listening to Disinformed, a mini series from There Are 2 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet. I'm Bridget Todd. During World 3 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 1: War Two, many women did the dangerous work of resistance. 4 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: Dutch sisters Freddie and Truce over Stephen would get all 5 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 1: dulled up to flirt with Nazi soldiers at bars before 6 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: inviting them out for a romantic walk and luring them 7 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 1: to their deaths. Dancer Josephine Baker secretly worked as a spy, 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: passing on secret she learned while performing to the French military. 9 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Glowden hit Jews in her home in Berlin before 10 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: getting them out of Germany to safety. Their work was 11 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:47,160 Speaker 1: often quiet and behind the scenes, and also very dangerous. 12 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: Today there's still dangerous work to be done. On January six, 13 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: we watched white supremacists breached the Capitol and they were brazen, 14 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: posting for selfies, live streaming, seemingly not caring if anyone 15 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: knew who they were. I still see their smiling faces 16 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: when I walk around my neighborhood in DC on bus 17 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: stop bay posters asking for the public's help with identifying them. 18 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 1: Over two and seventy have already been charged. No, I'm 19 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: not gonna lie in the aftermath. It was kind of 20 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: satisfying to watch people who were once so brazen get arrested. 21 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: But I know it doesn't end there. It's important to 22 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,479 Speaker 1: follow up with what happens even after the arrests are made. 23 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: What were they charged with, were they convicted, what happens next. Luckily, 24 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: digital infrastructure that makes this easy for anyone to do 25 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:36,919 Speaker 1: already exists, and much of the dangerous work of building 26 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 1: it out has been done by brave women armed with data, 27 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: women like Emily Gorzenski. Emily is an activist who uses 28 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 1: her data science background to fight Nazis and white supremacists. 29 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 1: It's dangerous work. She moved to Berlin in part just 30 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: to get some space. Emily attended the deadly twenties seventeen 31 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, where Heather Higher 32 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: was killed. They're well known. Neo Nazi Christopher Cantwell assaulted 33 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: Emily with pepper spray. She pressed charges, and in turn, 34 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 1: can't Well tried to press charges against her. When can 35 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:14,239 Speaker 1: Well learned that there was a warrant out for his arrest, 36 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 1: he filmed himself sobbing, thus earning the nickname the crying Nazi. 37 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 1: Just a few moments before I spoke with Emily news Broke, 38 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: can't Well was being sentenced to forty one months in 39 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: prison for trying to extort a member of a rival 40 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: group of neo Nazis who called themselves the Bull Patrol. 41 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 1: They were bull haircuts and tribute to Dylan Ruth who 42 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 1: shot and killed nine out a Charleston church. Can't Well 43 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 1: has been harassing Emily for years and now he's going 44 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: to prison. She sift blue label whiskey as we talked, 45 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: a quiet celebration. Usually I start these interviews asking about 46 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 1: people's backgrounds and where they came from and all of that. 47 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 1: But I have to mention top of the show, white 48 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 1: supremacist a k a. Crying Nazi, Christopher can't Well was 49 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: just sent him to bready one month in prison. How 50 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:08,640 Speaker 1: are you feeling? You know, I feel relieved and I 51 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: feel grateful that, um, this is something that I don't 52 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: have to worry about anymore. So for those who don't know, 53 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: Chris can't Well was nicknamed the crying Nazi because um 54 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: in seen he came to the United the Right rally. 55 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 1: There was this Vice documentary that featured him very heavily. 56 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 1: He's talking a big game about like how much violence 57 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:32,519 Speaker 1: he wanted to do. He was going to kill people, 58 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: like We're gonna kill all these communes and stuff like 59 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 1: that need all these guns. And I was talking about 60 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: like how many weights he lift. Um, it turns out 61 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: that he he actually assaulted me at that at that 62 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: rally with pepper spray. I'm during the infamous Tiki torch 63 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: rally at the University of Virginia and I press charges. Um, 64 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: and when he found out that there was a warrant 65 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: for his arrest. Um, the reason that he found out 66 00:03:57,800 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: that there was a warrant for his arrest is I 67 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: kind of opolusly let it slip that I had signed, 68 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: you know, sworn a warrant for his arrest. He recorded 69 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: this like really long, um YouTube video where he like 70 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: started crying about having a warrant for his arrest and 71 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: then read his phone number off to like like on 72 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: this YouTube video, like his actual phone number. And UM, 73 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: you know this wasn't just a few days after the 74 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 1: event in Charlotte's Well, so it's very much in everyone's mind. 75 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: And so he became known as the crying Nazi and UM. 76 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: Since that moment. You know, his his life is um 77 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: taking many, many, many turns for the worst. And he 78 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 1: went to jail. He pleaded guilty for assaulting me. UM. 79 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 1: And then he recently h was in this process of 80 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:47,559 Speaker 1: extorting another fellow white nationalists, which got him in trouble 81 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: with the beds, and um he was just sentenced. He 82 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 1: was found guilty at trial and then just sentenced forty 83 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:56,919 Speaker 1: one months. So this is somebody that's been harassing me 84 00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: for a long time. And this is somebody who's been 85 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: threatening me and threatening my friends and my family, and UM, 86 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: you know, prison isn't a solution for this behavior, Like 87 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 1: there needs to be a bigger fixed. But I got 88 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: him going to be really grateful for forty one months 89 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: of not having to worry about his bullshit. So is 90 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: this how you thought you would use your data science 91 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: degrees fighting nazis? No, not at all. In fact, I 92 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: went to school I wanted to design airplanes, UM, and 93 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: I did that for a long time and until I 94 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,840 Speaker 1: realized that designing airplanes was boring. In data science both 95 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: paid better and was more fun. UM. But I never 96 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: really set out I never set out to be an activist. UM. 97 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,039 Speaker 1: I felt I always felt that I had some sort 98 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: of responsibility to make the world a better place. And 99 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 1: when I was younger, there was there were stories about 100 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: how the clan would march through like the nearby city 101 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: next to the city next to where I grew up, 102 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: which was a small town in Connecticut, and it's like, 103 00:05:56,200 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: what is the clan doing in well Emantic, Connecticut? Um, 104 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 1: but you know, the clan is everywhere because white supremacy 105 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: is everywhere, and um, you know, I used to joke 106 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 1: with my friends. We used to like kind of fantasize, 107 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 1: like what would we do if the clan came to down. Oh, yeah, 108 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: we'd like grow smoke bombs at him and shoot paintball 109 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 1: games that or whatever. Like we were like thirteen, fourteen 110 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: years old and here we were like inspiring to commit 111 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:23,359 Speaker 1: what would probably be federal crimes. But um, you know 112 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:27,280 Speaker 1: that that was you know, long ago. Statute of Limitations 113 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: has since passed. Um. But I always felt like, you know, 114 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 1: racism when it got to that degree, was something that 115 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: had to be confronted. It took me a lot longer 116 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: to understand that racism wasn't just um, that that public 117 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:46,599 Speaker 1: behavior that it was. It was something more deep you know, 118 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: deeply rooted in society. And when I started to understand that, 119 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: I started to become more outspoken. And I guess that's 120 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: at the point in which I saw that I had 121 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: a responsibility as a as a working professional, who who 122 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: somebody who is fortunate enough to have stable housing, you know, 123 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: loving life, UM, you know, a good upbringing. UM, it 124 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 1: was my responsibility to to say something about bigotry in 125 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 1: the world. It was a pure coincidence that all of 126 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: this ship happened in Charlottesville, UM, where I was living. 127 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 1: And you know, so it was a matter of circumstance, 128 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: a matter of you know, weird destinies of the universe, 129 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: and a matter of just always having this moral resolve 130 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: that like when things got really bad, like I knew 131 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: that I would be on the front line. How did 132 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 1: you wind up going to that Unite the Right? Raley? 133 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: I know you lived in Charlotte'sville, but what what made 134 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: you say I have to go out there? You know, 135 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 1: I I felt a responsibility to UM. I was somebody 136 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: that had a decent social media profile at the time, 137 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: and I had spent the last couple of years speaking 138 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 1: out about sexism in the tech industry. And I is 139 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: doing things like you know, um, I was working on 140 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: things like video games for people to help people quit smoking, 141 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: and video games for stroke patients and stuff like that 142 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 1: as part of my professional work. And so I watched 143 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: gamer Gate unfold as somebody doing this like game development, 144 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: um for you know, people who weren't your typical gamer like, 145 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: and I kind of watched this whole thing in fold, like, 146 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 1: you know, if somebody finds out what am I what 147 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: I'm doing, are they going to call me some sort 148 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: of like you know, social justice warrior or whatever, because 149 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 1: I'm like trying to help elderly folks who have had 150 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 1: a stroke like rehab themselves. Like it was really concerning, 151 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 1: and I found it, you know, deeply baffling. Um. So, 152 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: you know, I kind of always like watched that that evolved, 153 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 1: and then I watched it evolve into the Trump campaign, 154 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 1: and I watched it evolve into the near react new 155 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 1: reactionary movement, and I watched to evolve into like the 156 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:03,559 Speaker 1: culture wars with the tech industry, and I just kind 157 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 1: of saw this happening and watching like, you know, this 158 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 1: be dominated by these right wing, these fascistic forces with 159 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 1: no real pushback. And I started thinking like, why don't 160 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 1: we have better why don't we have a better ground 161 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: game when it comes to social media. So kind of 162 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 1: like as soon as everything started happening in Charlotte's will 163 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: I was like, well, I need to figure out how 164 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 1: to do this. You know, things in Charlotte'sville weren't just 165 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 1: the one big rally, Like there were at least five 166 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 1: neo Nazi rallies in Charlotte'sville. Charlotte Tell Virginia became a 167 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 1: hot better violent white supremacist activity. And I don't think 168 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 1: I'll ever forget those chances. Some of them were smaller 169 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: and most people forget about them. But the first sort 170 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 1: of one that made national news was Richard Spencer came 171 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 1: in in mid May, like Mother's Day a in May, 172 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:04,079 Speaker 1: and that was when he held the first torture ally 173 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: and it kind of like, you know, raise people's alarms, 174 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,959 Speaker 1: like neo Nazis with tiki torch, Like with torches marching 175 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: around in America. That's not cool. Um. And this was 176 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 1: like after Richard Spencer had gotten punched famously, and so 177 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 1: there was like all you know, he was kind of 178 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 1: like a high profile figure and when that happened, I 179 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: was actually here where I am now, in Berlin, and 180 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: in Berlin I was I was watching how the activism 181 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 1: here unfold. You know, here, if there's an anti Nazi demo, 182 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 1: there's literally advertisements for it on the bus, on the 183 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 1: on the trains. Right they there's resourcing behind anti fascism. 184 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: It's very deep in the culture in Berlin. Um. You 185 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: walk down the street and you will see posters for 186 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:56,079 Speaker 1: Antipho demos um. And it's not as secretive as a movement. 187 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: And so I started to learn and I watched and I, 188 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 1: um use these like international ties that I had to 189 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: try to figure out, like how does activism work overseas? 190 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 1: And I when things started to unfold in Charlottesville and 191 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 1: the big rally was announced, and when they KKK rally 192 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:18,599 Speaker 1: in July was announced. Um, so the KKK Rally and 193 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: United the Right were two different rallies believe it or not. 194 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: So when these were announced, I was like, Okay, well, 195 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: I have this platform and I've spent all of this 196 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: time looking at how these European movements um advertise themselves. Okay, 197 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: let's see if we can change it up. So I 198 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 1: decided like my best role was to use my voice, 199 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:43,680 Speaker 1: to be in the front lines, to report from the 200 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:47,439 Speaker 1: front lines what's happening. UM, To put myself in harm's 201 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 1: way if necessary, and just try to make you know, 202 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: make make the protest visible from the inside. UM. Not 203 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: just as a as a journalist, but also as a participant, 204 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: right Like is me like I'm actually protesting UM, and 205 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:05,719 Speaker 1: this is this is what it's about, you know, try 206 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,959 Speaker 1: to try to show it, you know, real and raw. UM. 207 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 1: So that's kind of like the mission. And you know, 208 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 1: when Unite the Right came around, it was for me 209 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: it was like, okay, it's time for me to get up, 210 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: to grab my phone and go. Like there was never 211 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 1: a moment's hesitation. I knew exactly what my role was, 212 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 1: exactly what my job was, and for me, it would 213 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: just go out there and do it. Yeah. I mean 214 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: you talked about when you were young, you know, what 215 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: would you do with the KKK came I always people say, 216 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: you know, whatever you would do in you know, Nazi Germany. 217 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: What you're doing now is what you would have done, right, Like, 218 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: whatever you would have done when you think of at 219 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 1: the civil rights movement, whatever you're doing now is what 220 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: you would have done. And I feel like that line 221 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,679 Speaker 1: of thinking has really created some urgency in me to 222 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 1: not just sit back and be like, oh, I support 223 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: what they're doing, but I support it, you know, just 224 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: in my heart, I'm doing nothing in terms of actually 225 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: meaningfully supporting it. And it sounds like that was a 226 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 1: motivating factor for you as well. Totally, totally, I think, 227 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: you know, I spent a lot of that year traveling 228 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: Europe and visiting sites though of horrors throughout twentieth century history, 229 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 1: memorials to the victims of the Nazis, and and memorials 230 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 1: to people like young Young Palach, who was a check 231 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 1: activist whom self immolated at the end of the product 232 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: Spring in nine to protest the oppressive invasion of the 233 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 1: Soviet Union of Czechoslovakia at the time, and thinking of like, 234 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: you know, what is it, what must it have been 235 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: like to be in that position, right, how how must 236 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 1: it have felt when you don't have these choices, And 237 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 1: trying to understand, um, you know, shaping my own perception 238 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: to understand that we look at history and we assume 239 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: that there were there was like clear black and white morals, 240 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: you know, all throughout the time, like that there was 241 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:09,839 Speaker 1: you know, things were fine and then bad things were 242 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:11,959 Speaker 1: coming and it was like clear what side you should 243 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 1: be on, and it was clear what you should have done. Right. 244 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: We forget that the majority of people did not, you know, um, 245 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: the approve of Martin Luther King, Right, we forget that 246 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: the majority of people did not approve of the civil 247 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 1: rights but we forget that there were, um, you know, 248 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 1: there was massive support from Nazi Germany in the United States, 249 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: for example, we forget that, you know, um, the Nazi 250 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 1: Party was was elected into power. Right, So these things 251 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: are not as clear, and when we look at the 252 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: current era, it's very easy for us to say, well, 253 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: things are a little bit ambiguous. I don't like what's happening, 254 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: but maybe there's a way out where we don't have it. 255 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be nasty. I don't think that's true. 256 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: I think that it actually has to be nasty, and 257 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 1: it's up to us to control how nasty it is. 258 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 1: And if we don't want it to be really, really nasty, 259 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: then we have to deal with a little bit nasty. 260 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: There's no easy way out, And for me, that's like, 261 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: you know, just you just have to have a clear 262 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: conscience about what you're gonna do and and what your 263 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 1: your boundaries, what your threshold is and UM, and then 264 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: you know, make that decision in that. So do you 265 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 1: think that's necessary to get to a place where we 266 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: won't have Nazis, you know, marching in the streets, that 267 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: we have to get comfortable with some level of personal risk. 268 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: Is that what it's going to take? I think yes, 269 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: But I think that the more people who are comfortable 270 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: with personal risk, the less risk it is. Right. The 271 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: more people who can do what I'm doing, the better 272 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: it is for all of us. Right. And this is 273 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 1: definitely one of those things where there's a finite amount 274 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 1: of energy that these these fascists have and if we 275 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: distribute that load, it becomes much easier to bear. UM. 276 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: You know, I think that this is a cost, This 277 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: is a known cost. I knew what the cost of 278 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: this was going to be going in. UM. That doesn't 279 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: mean it was easy, because it's not good, And it 280 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 1: doesn't mean I knew everything about how it would go 281 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: going in UM. But I do think that, like you know, 282 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 1: when you speak out against hate, people are going to 283 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 1: people who hate are going to push back against you. 284 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 1: And I think that you know, the harassment the the lies, 285 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: the defamation, you know, all of this. It's it's part 286 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: of the cost um. But the good news is that, 287 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: you know, since since those times, like the amount of 288 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 1: people who are speaking up and fighting back has gotten 289 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: larger um and and it's gotten easier um you know. 290 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: But for you know, if you're high profile, you're always 291 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: going to get hate. And for me, you know, now 292 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 1: it's like, I'm just glad that I can absorb some 293 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 1: of the hate so that it doesn't fall onto the 294 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: next person. It's if you want to come and troll 295 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: me on Twitter, like I really prefer that you don't. 296 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 1: But if if I had to make a choice between 297 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: me and like some you know, random, you know, more vulnerable, 298 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 1: nervous person who's finally getting the courage to speak out, like, 299 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 1: come at me with everything you've got, I can take it. 300 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: That person over there is is going to have a 301 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 1: much harder time. Let's take a quick break and we're back. 302 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 1: Emily is trans so in white supremacists and Nazi's Harasser. 303 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: They do so by weaponizing her identity, and people, even 304 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: those who are ostensibly on her side don't always speak 305 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 1: up about it. I mean something else that I noticed 306 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 1: in your situation is you know, you talked about assuming 307 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: risk and harm. I do feel that a disproportionate amount 308 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 1: of that risk and harm falls on people who are 309 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 1: the most marginalized. And for you, you know, in this 310 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: case with this white supremacist, both he and his lawyer 311 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 1: continuously misgendered you. They filed a petition to use your 312 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,679 Speaker 1: dead aim in the proceedings. It's like, I almost I 313 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 1: almost feel as if, even from folks on the left, 314 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 1: we don't talk about the specific ways that people's identities 315 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:15,679 Speaker 1: are weaponized by you know, white supremacists, bad people, and 316 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: it makes it gives the impression that people are all 317 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: absorbing the same level of risk, when in your case, 318 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 1: you clearly are not. You are absorbing more. Yeah, I 319 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:28,199 Speaker 1: think it's it's a shame um that we we failed 320 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,119 Speaker 1: to do that on the left. And this is one 321 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 1: of the things that you know, I didn't really account for. 322 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 1: I thought I would have had a little bit more 323 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 1: support in those methods. And it's frustrating at times when 324 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: I see things like you know, the right wing author 325 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 1: writing about me using my dead name and transphobic contentary 326 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 1: for no, for that has nothing to do with the book, 327 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:48,399 Speaker 1: but he's doing it because he knows that he can 328 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 1: hurt me. That's one thing, you know, and that sucks. 329 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: What really sucks is when if that gets ignored. UM. 330 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:00,679 Speaker 1: And I see this all the time. I see this 331 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,440 Speaker 1: with you know, trans people. You know, people aren't calling 332 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:07,880 Speaker 1: out transphobia, um, and it's you know, people aren't understanding 333 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:11,880 Speaker 1: the ways that transphobia harms. Right and these are leftists too, 334 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 1: UM fancy themselves to be trans allies, but they still 335 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: don't understand those harms. And you know, I'm sure that 336 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: you know, you know it's, um, we we see this 337 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:26,159 Speaker 1: all the time, like black women get attacked and we 338 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:31,399 Speaker 1: find the attacks reprehensible, but somehow we still separate ourselves 339 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:38,879 Speaker 1: from like the the anti blackness of it, and you 340 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,919 Speaker 1: know it's it's I know it's hard to understand and 341 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: to empathize, but I think, you know, we really have 342 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:48,159 Speaker 1: to do better at at seeing these things and understanding 343 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 1: what those costs are. I mean, could you imagine what 344 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: would have happened if the judge allowed that petition for 345 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: me to be debt named in court and miss gendered 346 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: in court? Like I didn't want to have to fight 347 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: a battle over basic name. You know, naming rights, you know, 348 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 1: and it could have been that. Thankfully it wasn't. But 349 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:13,919 Speaker 1: you know, these are the like those are the stakes, 350 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,879 Speaker 1: and like that just gets swept under the rug. Was 351 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: some part of you worried that that proceeding would that 352 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: that would be allowed, that you would be that they 353 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: would officially say, yes, we're using your dead name. Um no, 354 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: because I didn't, you know, I didn't even know that 355 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 1: it happened until after it was handled by my lawyers. 356 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:34,439 Speaker 1: And I was on a like a work trip as 357 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,159 Speaker 1: that in Portland organ I get a call, you know, 358 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:39,639 Speaker 1: after work one day my lawyers like all right, Emily, 359 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you something. Something really should he happened, 360 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: but don't worry, it's okay. And I'm like, all right, 361 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:46,479 Speaker 1: what's up? And so she told me how she had 362 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:48,680 Speaker 1: to go and argue in front of the judge and 363 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: and all of that. And you know, we could have 364 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:52,399 Speaker 1: just gone in with my name changed for him and 365 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: been like, now you have to do this, otherwise it's 366 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: contempt of court. But we actually managed to argue it 367 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:02,959 Speaker 1: successfully without needing to go and like like formally do it, 368 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:07,879 Speaker 1: because I think, you know, not every transferson can afford 369 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: a name changer, it has access to one, right, Um, 370 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 1: So it's actually an important thing to do. So I'm 371 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: grateful that my lawyers were so amazing, um and that 372 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: they went to that for me. Um. But yeah, you know, 373 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: it's just these it's always going to be something, right, 374 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 1: and it's it feels like it's always going to be 375 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: something that follows me for the rest of my life. Yeah, 376 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,640 Speaker 1: And it's like, you know, it's like one more thing. 377 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 1: You don't fucking need one more thing to take you 378 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,639 Speaker 1: away from your work or to take up your energy 379 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 1: or your time or your capacity, which we know our 380 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: finite resources. That's part of the plan. Right. This is 381 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:45,399 Speaker 1: a weaponized sort of war of attrition. Right that they 382 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:47,880 Speaker 1: do this because if they get you spending your your 383 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: energy on all of these little things, Ultimately, if you 384 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 1: needed to swallow it, you could to get the job done. 385 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:54,920 Speaker 1: You would just swallow it to get the job done. 386 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: But you want to fight it, right, And so they're 387 00:21:57,359 --> 00:21:59,919 Speaker 1: trying to distract you. They're trying to steal your energy 388 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,159 Speaker 1: fighting these pointless battles. And they're not pointless battles, but 389 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,959 Speaker 1: they're not the main point of the battle. Right, So 390 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: it's like death by a thousand paper cuts with all 391 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:12,719 Speaker 1: of this stuff. And yeah, I don't know it just 392 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 1: it just seems like that's part of this like fascist 393 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,439 Speaker 1: strategy is to just keep you constantly occupied so that 394 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,680 Speaker 1: you can never get ahead, because they know that if 395 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 1: you had a moment peace, right, imagine what we could 396 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 1: all do given that, Like the stuff that I'm accomplishing now, 397 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,919 Speaker 1: having moved to Germany, having gotten some space between you know, 398 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:41,199 Speaker 1: the trauma and the noise and all of that, and 399 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 1: like the healing that I've done, Like I'm doing the 400 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: best work of my life right now because that's the 401 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 1: power that I have. And I got that power by 402 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,199 Speaker 1: having to fight, like by surviving all of these fights 403 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,920 Speaker 1: for so long, you know, as somebody that's mixed raights, 404 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: as somebody that's transgender, as somebody that's queer. Right, it's 405 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,919 Speaker 1: just a constant battle. Well surviving that has given me 406 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 1: the tools to to excel. But at the same time, 407 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 1: like sometimes I wish I could just be kind of 408 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 1: normal and just like exists like everyone else and just 409 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 1: have a normal life, right, and not everyone gets to 410 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 1: make it through all of that noise and and they 411 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: you know, that's that's the point. That's how they keep 412 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,679 Speaker 1: us down. Yeah, I even see it in you know, 413 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: I feel that a lot of the online conversation are 414 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: around issues impacting the trans community. People like bad actors 415 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 1: and ship heads have have dominated, especially online, dominated those conversations, 416 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,400 Speaker 1: and so every conversation is like trance people in sports bathrooms. 417 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: And it's like if we if folks did not have 418 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: to constantly, you know, contend with these very loud people 419 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: who essentially, in my opinion, have been able to really 420 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:58,640 Speaker 1: own the conversation online, Like, could we actually have a 421 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 1: part to have conversation that moves us forward? But I 422 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: feel like we can't because we're still the people who 423 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: who want to be flooding every conversation with like a 424 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 1: bunch of nonsense that they have dominated the online space. 425 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 1: I feel, yeah, And it's it's all culture work stuff, right, 426 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: Like this whole thing now it's about trans trans kids 427 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: in sports, right, there's no problems with trans kids in sports, 428 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 1: all of these things that they're talking about. There's no 429 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 1: statistics whatsoever that suggests that this is a problem in 430 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 1: any any way, shape or form. If a bunch of 431 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,399 Speaker 1: trans girls were out there winning every sports championship for 432 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 1: you know, in high school women's sports and college women's sports. 433 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 1: Even I would say, like, you know, maybe we need 434 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 1: to revisit this, right, but that's not happening. There's none. 435 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,880 Speaker 1: There's none. There are no trans women dominating called collegiate athletics. 436 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 1: There are no trans women dominating high school athletics. There 437 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 1: are no trans women dominating the Olympics. You know, um 438 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 1: women's competition. There are some trans women who are successf 439 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,160 Speaker 1: in those competitions, but we do not see a wave 440 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 1: of you know, sis men trying to pretend that they're 441 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:09,640 Speaker 1: trans women so that they can get in a gold medal. 442 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 1: We don't see that. We don't see trans women, trans 443 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 1: girls joining these teams to dominate them. This is a 444 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 1: completely fabricated issue, and the reason it has been fabricated 445 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: is in order to create this polarization so that the 446 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: right can stay relevant by creating this cultural division. And 447 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,400 Speaker 1: trans people have been historically used as scapegoats, um as 448 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:36,719 Speaker 1: as just you know, we are just one sort of 449 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: identity that has been used as scapegoats. You know, three 450 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: or four years ago, this was all about bathroom bills. Okay, well, 451 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:47,160 Speaker 1: there was no evidence of of any trans women ever 452 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 1: sexually assaulting anyone in the bathroom, or or or any 453 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 1: men trying you know, a sis gender men trying to 454 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 1: pretend that they are trans women to assault women in bathrooms. 455 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 1: There were plenty of case of cis gender men going 456 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 1: into women's bathrooms when assist gender woman who was like 457 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 1: a butch lesbian went in there and then beat her up. 458 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 1: So that the actual threat of men men again, you know, 459 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 1: men on women violence in women's bathrooms was the opposite 460 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 1: of this problem, right, It was the thing that they 461 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:20,879 Speaker 1: were saying was going to happen, was the thing that 462 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 1: they were doing. All of this is culture war stuff. 463 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 1: All of this is to designed to keep inflated this 464 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 1: polarized version of of politics UM and to rally people 465 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,199 Speaker 1: to you know, the right notes that it's it is 466 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: a losing cause, but they create these fake issues UM 467 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 1: to mobilize people. And it works because we're left here 468 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,119 Speaker 1: holding the bag because we have to be outraged and 469 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 1: we have to fight it because the if we don't 470 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: fight it, it's a catastrophe. If we do fight it, 471 00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 1: it becomes this polarization vector. And then all of these 472 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: talking heads you know, on on social media and in 473 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 1: the New York Times op ed and on cable news, 474 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:12,199 Speaker 1: they're all sitting here going is America still polarized? Like 475 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:16,199 Speaker 1: is it really both sides that are bad? And like, 476 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: fuck you, buddy, you're not affected, Like you're not going 477 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 1: to get beat up if you go to try to 478 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,399 Speaker 1: take a leak in the bathroom at a courthouse or 479 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,919 Speaker 1: a school. Right, this is not This is not an 480 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 1: issue of people becoming polarized. This is an issue of 481 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 1: people who have always had a right defending against lies 482 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: that are being used to try to remove that right 483 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: in order to further a different political agenda. Like we're 484 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:50,679 Speaker 1: not you know, we're not a football, right, We're people, 485 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,919 Speaker 1: and then us fighting to retain whatever little dignity we 486 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 1: are granted somehow becomes like a both sides issue. Fuck that. 487 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 1: It's so insulting, and I think people forget that these 488 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 1: are people that, yeah, where people. It's like you're yeah, 489 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 1: you're not. I guess I hate when I see people 490 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 1: talking about other human beings as if it's some sort 491 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 1: of ideological exercise or something, you know, not someone's actual life. 492 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 1: It's very frustrating. More after a quick break, let's get 493 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 1: right back into it. Emily lives in Berlin after being 494 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 1: on the receiving end of ongoing harassment campaigns and attacks, 495 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 1: including being swatted, a terrifying harassment tactic or law enforcement 496 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: is summoned to your address under bogus pretenses. She was 497 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: just looking for some space and some healing. You mentioned that, 498 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 1: having moved to Berlin, that you've been able to have 499 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,480 Speaker 1: a little bit more space, a little bit more healing, 500 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 1: which I'm so thankful for, because Lord knows you'd sort 501 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 1: of it. Um. But I guess one of my questions 502 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 1: is I read that you initially decided to leave the 503 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 1: country after things just got so so scary for you. 504 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: You know, I read that you had a like you 505 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: were swatted, essentially. Can you tell me about this? Yeah, 506 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 1: I was, I was squatted. UM. Lots of death threats, UM, 507 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 1: other threats of violence, lawsuits. Um. You know, all of 508 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 1: this stuff came came down on me. And you know, 509 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: the swatting incident in October twenty seventeen was was a 510 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: wake up call. Um. You know, thankfully neither my wife 511 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: nor I were home at the time. Um, but you know, 512 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: terrified the whole neighborhood. I mean, they came in, they 513 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: blocked off the street. They had men running down the 514 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: street where the salt rifles. Um, you know, and I wasn't. 515 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 1: I wasn't even in the state when this happened. Um. 516 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 1: That was a bit of a wake up call. And 517 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: the next month I went to burn I came here 518 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 1: to Berlin for a month that like, you know, I 519 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 1: have to testify at Chris Campbell's preliminary hearing for for 520 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,479 Speaker 1: my case. Um. And after that, I was like, I 521 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: need to get out because you know, here I am 522 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 1: Chris Campbell's preliminary hearing, there's you know, a dozen Nazis 523 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 1: in the courtroom. They all know where I live. That's 524 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 1: a scary, scary thing to begin Um. You know, so 525 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,640 Speaker 1: I figured like I'm gonna, I'm gonna, you know, get 526 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: out of the country for a little bit because the 527 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 1: threat was just so so proud of, you know, prevalent. 528 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 1: And Chris Campbell is you know, he's posting in his 529 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 1: blog post about you know, posting blog posts about me, 530 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 1: writing in a gap about me saying I'm gonna kill you, 531 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 1: you know, rallying up violence against me. People were drawing 532 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,479 Speaker 1: pictures of me being run down with a car singing 533 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 1: songs about you know, gassing keywords and trainees. Right. Um, 534 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 1: and so I just said, you know, I left in 535 00:30:56,280 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 1: twenties in November seventeen for a month and it was 536 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: very healing. And I came back and I felt really good, 537 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 1: as you know when I came when I was there, 538 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 1: and I came back, and I watched my mental health 539 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: just go down, and then the threats, you know, we're 540 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: still we're still there. And then every time I would 541 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 1: leave Charlottesville, I would feel better, and every time I 542 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 1: would come back, I would spiral. And at some point, 543 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: you know, I was like, I need a change. And 544 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 1: you know, my wife saw it too. She's like, you're 545 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 1: not gonna You're not gonna survive if you keep doing this. 546 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: So you know, I my best friend had moved to 547 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 1: Berlin at the end of at the beginning of and um, 548 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 1: they said, you know, we have a position open. Why 549 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: don't you apply? So I did. I got the job, 550 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 1: and I was I said, I need, I need a change. 551 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 1: You know, it's not safe for me here. I'm not 552 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 1: healthy here. Um, why not let's make it an adventure? 553 00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 1: What is your healing journey? Looked like very nonlinear healing 554 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: is very nonlinear. UM. It's been a lot of trying 555 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 1: to unwind, trying to let things go, knowing that I 556 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 1: don't have to fight every fight. UM, getting some space UM, 557 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 1: some physical security, some mental security, UM. Keeping myself busy 558 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 1: with with new new intellectual challenges like learning German not 559 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 1: an easy language to learn. UM. You know, trying to 560 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 1: do that keeps me busy, keeps me, keeps me engaged. UM. 561 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 1: So for me, it's it's really just about you know, 562 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 1: finding the mental space and energy UM to feel like 563 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 1: I'm to feel good about myself again, to feel like 564 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 1: I have progress to make. UM. You know, like at 565 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 1: some point I will speak fluent German and I am 566 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 1: getting closer every day. UM. The fight against white supremacy 567 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 1: feels like it has no end. I can docts a 568 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 1: hundred Nazis, I can, you know, put a hundred Nazis 569 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 1: in jail, and there's another hundred Nazis to go. UM. 570 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,240 Speaker 1: And so you know, it's not like we can't win 571 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 1: the fight. But I can't win the fight, right. I 572 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: can learn German, I can learn a new programming language. 573 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 1: I can learn to be a better salesperson, you know, 574 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 1: I can learn to to to lead a team better. 575 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 1: I can learn to I can travel, I can open 576 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 1: up my mind to these experiences, right, and for me 577 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 1: that's like really concrete, really tangible. Well, I guess I 578 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 1: can't travel now because it's stupid pandemic. Yeah, I have 579 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 1: to tell you. This is kind of an aside, but 580 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 1: I'm from Virginia and from mid Lothian, small town um 581 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 1: right outside of Richmond and the and so you know, 582 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 1: people in Virginia there's a certain kind of Southern politeness. 583 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: And when you go have an interaction with like a 584 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: retail worker, you know, it's like it's gotta be like, oh, 585 00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 1: you look just like so and so. Are you related 586 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 1: to them? Like every every interaction is twenty minutes. When 587 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 1: I visited Berlin for the first time, it was so 588 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 1: jarring to me how efficient every transaction was. And that 589 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 1: was a real learning curve. I had to learn how 590 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 1: to conduct myself in exchange in like retail exchanges with 591 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:20,359 Speaker 1: very efficient Germans. Yeah, it's this is not a land 592 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 1: of small talk. Trying to make small talk with some 593 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 1: of them, they're like, why are you asking me this? 594 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,319 Speaker 1: So for me coming to Virginia, it was like you know, 595 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:33,720 Speaker 1: you asked somebody how they're doing, and then they actually answer, 596 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 1: and you're like, it's, it's, it's it's it's a real 597 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 1: particular thing. Tracking the court cases of white supremacists and Nazis. 598 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:47,480 Speaker 1: It's surprisingly difficult. Cases can move slowly, and sometimes our 599 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,400 Speaker 1: media landscape is only interested in high profile of venders, 600 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 1: while smaller scale ones can go overlooked. With Emily's work 601 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 1: at First Visual, she's using data science to make it 602 00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: easier for journalists and activists and all of us to 603 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 1: keep the people on our collective radars. Can you tell 604 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,319 Speaker 1: me about First Visual? First Official is a resource for 605 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 1: keeping track of criminal cases in the US involving white 606 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,720 Speaker 1: supremacists and other far right actors and and and hate crime, 607 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 1: UM committers, UM, and so it's basically just a public 608 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 1: it's a it's essentially a front end for public records service. Right. So, 609 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,319 Speaker 1: one of the things that I noticed in following up 610 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 1: with the cases around Charlottesville and the other high profile 611 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 1: white supremacy cases UM and far right cases throughout the US, 612 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:40,919 Speaker 1: was that it's really hard to keep track of all 613 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:45,799 Speaker 1: of them because the legal process is quite slow. You know, 614 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 1: it typically takes a year or more for a criminal 615 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:54,160 Speaker 1: case to resolve. UM Chris Cantwell was arrested in January 616 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 1: and it's now February of one. He just got sentenced. 617 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 1: That's a relatively fast case, and that's over a year. 618 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,880 Speaker 1: Somebody like Robert Bowers, who's accused of murdering eleven Jews 619 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:09,480 Speaker 1: and the Synagogue of Pittsburgh three years ago, almost um 620 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:13,400 Speaker 1: still has not gone to try. So, I wanted to 621 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:17,759 Speaker 1: create a resource for activists and journalists to be able 622 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,240 Speaker 1: to keep up with what is happening in these cases, 623 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 1: because if you're always you know, if you're only writing 624 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:28,320 Speaker 1: a story when the big things happened, like the big 625 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:30,319 Speaker 1: you know, oh so and so had a hearing, or 626 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:31,960 Speaker 1: so and so has a trial, or so and so 627 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 1: god sentenced. You know, that's months in between each event. 628 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,799 Speaker 1: It's really easy in the pace of today's world to 629 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,640 Speaker 1: lose the thread in that time. Right. So if you're 630 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 1: if you write a story about somebody getting arrested in 631 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 1: in January and the next time anything happens is in September, 632 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:51,360 Speaker 1: you've completely lost the threat of that case. We're going 633 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,279 Speaker 1: to see this, by the way, with the capital riot case. Right, 634 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 1: all of these arrests are happening now. MM. A lot 635 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,439 Speaker 1: of these guys, you know, they've already been detained ending 636 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 1: trial unless they pleay out, and the FEDS are going 637 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,080 Speaker 1: to be in no rush to plead them out. The 638 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:08,960 Speaker 1: next time that we're going to hear anything is probably 639 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 1: gonna be right. This is gonna be a distant memory. 640 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,879 Speaker 1: Um SO first visual as a resource designed to try 641 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 1: to keep that threat together. Um SO it's essentially a 642 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 1: court calendar UM with details about what people are charged 643 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,680 Speaker 1: with M. I tried to bring the charging documents. I 644 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,239 Speaker 1: try to make those available when I can. UM. I 645 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,719 Speaker 1: try to like add context around, like you know, how 646 00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 1: many years could they be looking at you know, what 647 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:40,759 Speaker 1: is the crime that they're you know, associated with? UM 648 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 1: and so it's just it's just like a way for 649 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 1: me to tract what's going on. UM. And it's not 650 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 1: comprehensive because frankly, if I worked eighty hours a week 651 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,480 Speaker 1: on it, I couldn't keep up. That's how bad it 652 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:55,919 Speaker 1: is right now. Well, you know you taught you brought 653 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 1: up the insurrection. I I don't even really know how 654 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,280 Speaker 1: to ask this. I feel when you first started getting 655 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,080 Speaker 1: a high profile on social media for some of the 656 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:10,239 Speaker 1: work you were doing unmasking Nazis. Obviously, I thought it 657 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,439 Speaker 1: was the fucking best. There were people, even people who 658 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,120 Speaker 1: I feel I agree with, who would say like, oh, 659 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,200 Speaker 1: you shouldn't be dox seeing people, blah blah blah, And 660 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,359 Speaker 1: I said, I don't feel like that work was necessarily 661 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,960 Speaker 1: well received by everybody, And I found that surprising. And 662 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,560 Speaker 1: I think, now that we've had this insurrection, I'm very 663 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,279 Speaker 1: grateful that you started what seems like kind of thankless work, 664 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:35,279 Speaker 1: not to mention dangerous work of creating an infrastructure where 665 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,000 Speaker 1: we could track some of these cases where it wouldn't 666 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,920 Speaker 1: just be you know, they got charged, they got arrested, 667 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 1: in charge and then you you didn't follow up with 668 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 1: what happened. And I guess I wonder do you feel 669 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:47,759 Speaker 1: that you have Do you feel as if you've seen 670 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:51,040 Speaker 1: a trajectory of people being like, oh, this work is 671 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,560 Speaker 1: bad to now people being like, oh, thank god this 672 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 1: work exists. Yeah, I think. I mean, I wasn't the 673 00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:58,880 Speaker 1: first person to to out Nazis. I mean, there's a 674 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:03,000 Speaker 1: long story history of doing this um and the work 675 00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,320 Speaker 1: I do with for at Vigil is not is actually 676 00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 1: not about outingnose because I source all of that information 677 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: from news stories. Right, So First for vigils a journalistic 678 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:17,960 Speaker 1: resource mm hmm. But before I created that, there is 679 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:22,640 Speaker 1: no real good, public, comprehensive database um of of these 680 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,120 Speaker 1: these events and and First Vigil may not be comprehensive, 681 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:29,920 Speaker 1: but it's at least contemporary um. And the reporting was 682 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:32,359 Speaker 1: like there was a small handful of reporters who did 683 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:36,720 Speaker 1: a good job, but they were clearly overwhelmed. Um. And 684 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,440 Speaker 1: I think that in the time since I've created First Vigil, 685 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:44,239 Speaker 1: We've actually seen a lot of activity too, um by 686 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:49,080 Speaker 1: other groups, both both activists, journalists and academics and think 687 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:53,200 Speaker 1: tanks to make this stuff available, To make this information available. 688 00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 1: I think it's a public good to do this. And 689 00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:58,480 Speaker 1: I'm just really glad that lots of people have have 690 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,800 Speaker 1: seen that like and like, my resource can't be the 691 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 1: one overriding like dominant resource, and they they can add 692 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,239 Speaker 1: their own flavor. But two that there's a need for this, right. 693 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:13,319 Speaker 1: Like one of my you know, sort of philosophies is 694 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 1: you know, find work that needs to be done and 695 00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:17,920 Speaker 1: do it. That's what First Vigil was all about. It 696 00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,160 Speaker 1: was just like I saw a needs, so I decided 697 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:23,239 Speaker 1: to create a thing. Lots of other people are doing this, 698 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:26,280 Speaker 1: They're adding their own spin to it. This is great, 699 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:30,760 Speaker 1: Like the world is richer when more people are taking 700 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:36,080 Speaker 1: public data, making it available and adding their own interpretation, right, 701 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:41,280 Speaker 1: because we are better off when we as intelligent thinking people, 702 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:46,520 Speaker 1: and we are all intelligent thinking people can see different 703 00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:49,359 Speaker 1: sides of a story in different perspectives make of their 704 00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:53,279 Speaker 1: own decision, right. So sure, like you know, I might 705 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,239 Speaker 1: not agree with everything that the a d L does. 706 00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:58,200 Speaker 1: You know, I think they're overall a pretty good organization. 707 00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:00,399 Speaker 1: I don't agree with all their politics, I don't agree 708 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,640 Speaker 1: with all of their conclusions. But if they're doing this 709 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 1: work and I'm doing this work, great, Now you get 710 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:08,600 Speaker 1: two different perspectives on this work, and none of those 711 00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:11,239 Speaker 1: perspectives have to be oh, what if the nazis the 712 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:15,720 Speaker 1: good guy? Right, More perspectives have to have to center 713 00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:21,239 Speaker 1: this this clear evil um and to me that that's important. So, 714 00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:23,680 Speaker 1: you know, I think that it's good that more people 715 00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:26,640 Speaker 1: are doing this because we really need to understand this 716 00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,960 Speaker 1: as a society, we really need to understand white supremacy. 717 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:34,320 Speaker 1: The business of resistance is women's work, and Emily follows 718 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,160 Speaker 1: the legacy of women working quietly behind the scenes to 719 00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:40,719 Speaker 1: build out the infrastructure for accountability. So many of the 720 00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:44,240 Speaker 1: people doing this work, yourself, Molly Conger, others are women. 721 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:46,360 Speaker 1: How does it make you feel that this work that 722 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 1: is so risky and sometimes you know, thankless, so much 723 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:54,319 Speaker 1: of it is being done by women. Like, why do 724 00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:59,319 Speaker 1: you think this is? I think because women support each 725 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:03,160 Speaker 1: other and have to support each other ticket by and 726 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,600 Speaker 1: this is actually a way of us supporting each other. Right, 727 00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:10,320 Speaker 1: we're putting this out there to protect each other. Um. 728 00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 1: I think that you know, there there are men in 729 00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:16,360 Speaker 1: this space, and they're doing really good work. But I 730 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:20,800 Speaker 1: think that overall there's less impetus for men to see 731 00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,120 Speaker 1: this at Like they see this as work and they 732 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:28,319 Speaker 1: see it as important, but they don't necessarily, um, have 733 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,640 Speaker 1: the same experience of you know, needing to create these 734 00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:37,280 Speaker 1: support structures publicly and for strangers. Women. You know, women 735 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:39,200 Speaker 1: support each other when they see you, when they see 736 00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:41,480 Speaker 1: each other crying in the bathroom at a club, right, 737 00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:46,280 Speaker 1: women support each other on the internet, on the bus. Um. 738 00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:48,279 Speaker 1: I think that a lot of the women are doing 739 00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:51,400 Speaker 1: this work because they see, they know the harassment that 740 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:53,960 Speaker 1: they've received. They know that they're not the only ones 741 00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:57,799 Speaker 1: receiving the harassment. UM and putting that resource out there, 742 00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:00,840 Speaker 1: it's like a signal. It's like a know, we're fighting 743 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:02,520 Speaker 1: for you. I might not know who you are, but 744 00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,880 Speaker 1: I'm fighting for you. Emily. Where can people keep up 745 00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:09,120 Speaker 1: with all the amazing heroic stuff that you are up to. 746 00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:12,000 Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm up to any heroic stuff, 747 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,840 Speaker 1: but if you want to be selfies and random tweets 748 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:19,719 Speaker 1: and probably grammatically incorrect German from time to time, the 749 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:21,239 Speaker 1: best way to keep in touch with me is that 750 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:25,399 Speaker 1: Emily wher sinceki on Twitter. UM, So that's where I'm at. 751 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:29,759 Speaker 1: I hope that you're out celebrating tonight, kicking back, having 752 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:31,839 Speaker 1: a good one. You deserve it. I've got a little 753 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:35,239 Speaker 1: bit of work to do, but yeah, I've got I've 754 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,280 Speaker 1: got a beer here in a whiskey, and I'm gonna 755 00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:42,560 Speaker 1: enjoy enjoy this this um, this win, and uh look 756 00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:52,520 Speaker 1: forward to the next win. Cheers. If you've enjoyed this podcast, 757 00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:59,480 Speaker 1: please help us grow by subscribing. Got a story about 758 00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:01,440 Speaker 1: an interesting something in tech, or just want to say hi. 759 00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:03,640 Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you at Hello at Tango 760 00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:06,279 Speaker 1: dot com dis Informed is brought to you by There 761 00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:08,360 Speaker 1: Are No Girls on the Internet. It's a production of 762 00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:12,280 Speaker 1: iHeart Radio and unbost Creative Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. 763 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:16,280 Speaker 1: Tory Harrison is our supervising producer and engineer. Michael Lamotto 764 00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,759 Speaker 1: is our contributing producer. I'm your host Bridget Todd. For 765 00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,680 Speaker 1: more great podcasts, check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, 766 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:24,080 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.