Speaker 1: I also, I don't shoot massive loads. My best friend
Speaker 1: and I talk about this. How do you don't say
Speaker 1: something like that? And you know what we do here
Speaker 1: destroy shame around sex by talking about sex.
Speaker 2: Now, let me tell you something messy.
Speaker 1: Well, before we jump into the episode, I do want
Speaker 1: to acknowledge for my American host that this is quite
Speaker 1: the week, And of course I have thoughts. You know,
Speaker 1: I consider the show comedy forward and educational. But you know,
Speaker 1: we're here talking about sex and bodies and I am
Speaker 1: a black, gay, non binary, first generation American like so
Speaker 1: the show is inherently political. So if you are interested,
Speaker 1: I will talk more about my feelings on what has
Speaker 1: happened this week at the end of the episode, after
Speaker 1: Hose with Heart. But for now, let me tell you
Speaker 1: a messy story. The first time I had penetrative sex
Speaker 1: was in college. I was eighteen, eighteen years old freshman
Speaker 1: at NYU. I lived in the dorm. Shout out to
Speaker 1: anyone at NYU right now, who's been to NYU Third North.
Speaker 1: It is on Third Avenue Downtown. But the thing about
Speaker 1: the building is it has three towers, so it was
Speaker 1: like the north tower of the South tower. And I
Speaker 1: think the East Tower. I'm pretty sure I was in
Speaker 1: the North Tower. But there was this boy. There's always
Speaker 1: a fucking boy. My god, there's this boy. And what
Speaker 1: shall we name him?
Speaker 2: We'll name him.
Speaker 1: Let's name him Leslie. I love, I loved the name
Speaker 1: Leslie on a boy beautiful. His name is Leslie. So
Speaker 1: Leslie was in musical theater. So I was a drama major.
Speaker 1: Leslie was a musical theater major. And the dorms weren't
Speaker 1: broken up by your departments, just it was a freshman dorm.
Speaker 2: But this fucking cuty lived in the East Tower. Yes,
Speaker 2: across the courtyard.
Speaker 1: Now here's the thing about the musical theater boys that
Speaker 1: I have to acknowledge. Is to me, they were so
Speaker 1: fucking hot. I don't I don't know what it was.
Speaker 1: You knew the musical theater boys were gay. Like everybody
Speaker 1: else was like trying to, you know, be masculine. How
Speaker 1: you in theater school trying to be masculine is a
Speaker 1: mystery to me. But everybody was trying to be masculine,
Speaker 1: you know, trying to be the leading man. But the
Speaker 1: musical theater boys they were queens, honey, Okay, they were
Speaker 1: wearing their skinny dreams from American apparel, their fucking big
Speaker 1: boushie scarves. Everybody had a purse in the in the
Speaker 1: in the gay part of the arm, which is, you know,
Speaker 1: on the elbow. That's not that I like to wear
Speaker 1: my bag, my little bag on the elbow, the gay
Speaker 1: part of the arm.
Speaker 2: So this Leslie, Leslie had to be I'm six to one.
Speaker 2: Leslie had to be like six.
Speaker 1: Two, lean body and like could do a motherfucking high
Speaker 1: kick in his sleep. And oh a jawline a jaw
Speaker 1: oh oh oh drool.
Speaker 2: I really wanted to drool all over him.
Speaker 1: So one night I went out with him and two
Speaker 1: or three other friends and we went to this bar
Speaker 1: that was called Asian Pub, which I hope it's closed down.
Speaker 1: Terrible name for a pub because no one Asian worked
Speaker 1: there or ran up. But it was called Asian.
Speaker 2: Pub and they would give.
Speaker 1: Us eighteen year old's alcohol. That's all I went because
Speaker 1: they never they never carded, so I was always drinking
Speaker 1: a mohito. I was always drinking a margarita, a pina colada.
Speaker 2: They had me lit up at that place.
Speaker 1: So I'm at this table with Leslie and three other
Speaker 1: people and we are we're drinking and we're eating at
Speaker 1: Mamee and we're we're Keith King and we're laughing, and uh,
Speaker 1: Leslie and I have a moment where we lock eyes
Speaker 1: and he gives me this look that y'all know.
Speaker 2: To look I'm talking about is that.
Speaker 1: It's that one look where you're like, oh, okay, you're
Speaker 1: about to mess me the fuck up. Okay, all right,
Speaker 1: all right, I'm gonna look back. So I gave him
Speaker 1: a little look back.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: And then as the night came to an end, everyone
Speaker 1: was going back to their dorms. Leslie and I live
Speaker 1: in the same dorm as you can imagine. So we
Speaker 1: walked ourselves back up third half into the dorm and
Speaker 1: I was gonna go to the North tower.
Speaker 2: He was gonna go to.
Speaker 1: The East tower across the courtyard. But you know, he
Speaker 1: was like, do you wanna like watch a movie? I
Speaker 1: think he's asked me to watch a movie or something
Speaker 1: like that. And I said, absolutely, of course, I would
Speaker 1: love to watch a movie with you, less thick, I
Speaker 1: would love to what let's go. So I went up
Speaker 1: to the East tower. He had a roommate, I don't remember.
Speaker 1: The room is home at the time either way. We
Speaker 1: go into Leslie's bedroom and he has posters of the
Speaker 1: shows he's been in, and one of them was this
Speaker 1: musical Anything Goes, and Anything Goes was my senior year musical,
Speaker 1: and both of us have.
Speaker 2: Played the lead.
Speaker 1: I had no business playing I'm not a singer like that,
Speaker 1: but they cast me seniors, so we both were.
Speaker 2: We both played the straight male lead in this musical.
Speaker 1: And now here we are on his twin bed underneath
Speaker 1: the poster about to do something. By the way, this
Speaker 1: is my first time having sex. Okay, so like I
Speaker 1: haven't done it yet, and I definitely haven't had queer sex.
Speaker 1: But my all I know about sex that my dick
Speaker 1: goes into a hole.
Speaker 2: That's all. That's as far as I've gotten.
Speaker 1: Okay, Leslie and I are, you know, on the bed
Speaker 1: we're making out or whatnot. And then Leslie asks, are
Speaker 1: you a top or a bottom? These musical theater girlies,
Speaker 1: they they knew more than I did. Now when he
Speaker 1: said top or bottom, I didn't understand. Now if you
Speaker 1: don't know what that means. So top, let's just say
Speaker 1: top is the penetrator and the bottom is the receiver.
Speaker 1: So he asked you top or bottom. I didn't understand
Speaker 1: the no one gave gave me my gay guidebook, no one,
Speaker 1: no one gave me the glossary yet, So he said
Speaker 1: top or bottom. I'm not thinking, you know, receive or give.
Speaker 1: I'm just thinking, oh, like, do you want me to
Speaker 1: be on top of you? Or would you like me
Speaker 1: to be on my back? And I'm on the bottom.
Speaker 1: I'm thinking position. I'm thinking, you know, physical position, not
Speaker 1: sexual position. So I say bottom because I don't know.
Speaker 1: I've seen like poorn, like you know, the girl gets
Speaker 1: on top of the guy and rides the deck and
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, that's.
Speaker 2: That looks like fun. So yeah, I'm a bottom.
Speaker 1: So he said, okay, cool Ben, and then he pulls
Speaker 1: out a condom and his dick, very very hard dick.
Speaker 1: By the way, the dick is is a I might
Speaker 1: as well have been a coke can. It was a
Speaker 1: coke bottle. It was thick, it was girfy, and I
Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, look at that big fucking dick.
Speaker 1: But I'm not worried about it until after I say bottom.
Speaker 1: He starts putting the condom on that coke can, and I.
Speaker 2: Was like, oh, that's interesting. Would he need to put
Speaker 2: a condom on, but okay.
Speaker 1: And then suddenly my legs are lifted and he's putting
Speaker 1: lube on his dick, and then he is promptly entering me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was everything that, everything that you think happened, everything
Speaker 1: that you feel would happen when a coke can enters you,
Speaker 1: and it happened to me. I will say I didn't
Speaker 1: I didn't squeal or anything, but internally I was screw
Speaker 1: There was a coke can in my guts. I for
Speaker 1: the for the first time, I was I was undone,
Speaker 1: I was unhinged, unwell.
Speaker 2: He fucked me. Uh and then you pulled out, you know.
Speaker 1: We we exchanged some niceties and I took my ass,
Speaker 1: my sore ass.
Speaker 2: I hobbled, I hobbled the itch.
Speaker 1: I hobbled to the elevator, hobbled down across the courtyard,
Speaker 1: hobbled my fucking North Tower elevator got my bit. I
Speaker 1: have never Ooh, I'm feeling the pain right now. And
Speaker 1: I got to my room and my roommate asked me
Speaker 1: why I was walking funny, and I think I told
Speaker 1: him like I pulled a muscle in glass or some shit.
Speaker 2: And that was that was it.
Speaker 1: That was my first time having sex, and I learned
Speaker 1: the difference between the top and a bottom.
Speaker 2: Now I love bottoming. But if you are not a
Speaker 2: bottom and a dick is suddenly inside you, it's surprising.
Speaker 2: It's shocking.
Speaker 1: Baby, it'll gag you something serious. It'll gag you something serious. Okay,
Speaker 1: that's my messy story. Baby, you know what that means.
Speaker 1: It's time for a guest. Now, while they get situated,
Speaker 1: we'll get our messy key. Key started with a whole
Speaker 1: manifest stoe. Oh my God, repeated after me aloud or
Speaker 1: in your head. Grant me the serenity to unpack my shame,
Speaker 1: the courage to heal, the wisdom to know that sex
Speaker 1: is not just about penetration, The audacity to advocate for
Speaker 1: my pleasure and my boundaries. The strength to not call
Speaker 1: my ex that fuck boy, fuck girl, or buck bay,
Speaker 1: for it is better for me to masturbate by myself
Speaker 1: in peace than to let someone.
Speaker 2: Play in my motherfucking face.
Speaker 1: Let the community say, oh, helujah. Matthew Raymond pronounced he
Speaker 1: him his graduated from Boston University in twenty ten and
Speaker 1: Boston College in twenty twelve. In twenty fifteen, while living
Speaker 1: in New York, he struck gold when he messaged a talented,
Speaker 1: funny and stunning young thing on tender. Matthew asked the
Speaker 1: tender bombshell out on a date in hopes just to
Speaker 1: get some ass because he already had a one way
Speaker 1: ticket to move to Oakland, California in the fall. But
Speaker 1: that night, instead of falling into some ass.
Speaker 2: He fell in love.
Speaker 1: His life was changed for the better forever, really elevated, expanded,
Speaker 1: and gave him a reason to get up in the morning.
Speaker 1: After a year of long distance, Matthew moved in with
Speaker 1: his tinderboo. Two years after that, Matthew had the wisdom
Speaker 1: to want to marry the gorgeous tender miracle in a
Speaker 1: plan proposal where he and his now spouse took turns
Speaker 1: getting on their knee and asking the other for their
Speaker 1: hand in marriage. Matthew, this is a wonderful.
Speaker 3: Bio wonder who wrote it?
Speaker 1: Matthew says it was the best decision of his life.
Speaker 1: I don't know who wrote this, but I thought it
Speaker 1: was you. Since getting married, Matthew has said that his
Speaker 1: partner is the light of his life, the wind between
Speaker 1: his ass cheeks, the missing tape measure of his toolbox.
Speaker 1: Even with two master's degrees, Peace Corps and a successful
Speaker 1: teaching career ed averging new career as a therapist, Matthew says.
Speaker 2: That marrying that beauty from Tinder is still his greatest accomplishment.
Speaker 1: Messy patrons, please help me. Welcome my husband.
Speaker 2: Matthew Raymond. Mate, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3: My goodness, thank you. I didn't realize we were doing
Speaker 3: a fantasy podcast.
Speaker 2: Read. Okay.
Speaker 1: One thing you also to know about husband is that
Speaker 1: he has lived with me. We've been together for nine
Speaker 1: years now, and he's learned how to throw shade and
Speaker 1: it's it's quite good.
Speaker 2: But I will fight you, honey.
Speaker 3: Okay, I know I'm in the other room, so.
Speaker 2: Don't get too reckless.
Speaker 1: Anyways, to a few messykiki guidelines for you listening and
Speaker 1: for you Matthew, because you know, we like to have
Speaker 1: we like to have rules around conversations that keep everyone
Speaker 1: safe so we can have really great conversations. So one
Speaker 1: things get to be unprocessed too. Any thoughts or opinions
Speaker 1: shared have the right to evolve, shift or change today, tomorrow,
Speaker 1: ten years from now. And if during the kiki something
Speaker 1: feels too personal or unintentionally offends, we use the safe
Speaker 1: word foosball, which gives a chance to pause and address
Speaker 1: or pit it accordingly.
Speaker 3: Sound good, heavy, sounds wonderful.
Speaker 2: Matthew, I would like to start by playing a.
Speaker 1: Game, or we'll call it a lube breaker, because obviously.
Speaker 3: Ooh, I'm down, let's do it, gorgeous.
Speaker 2: So do you know how to play? What you rather?
Speaker 1: It's like, I'll give you two options and you tell
Speaker 1: me which one you rather. Okay, great, just wonderful.
Speaker 3: You've went around the block.
Speaker 2: Even around the block you were in like grade school
Speaker 2: and stuff.
Speaker 1: Okay, So would you rather never suck dick again or
Speaker 1: never eat ass again?
Speaker 4: WHOA?
Speaker 3: I know this is a terrible, terrible decision to me.
Speaker 2: I know, I know it's a hard one to start with.
Speaker 3: Okay, well, I think I'd probably have to go with
Speaker 3: never eat ass again, because there's just something about a
Speaker 3: dick in my mouth filling it. Huh, That like just
Speaker 3: satisfies so many cravings.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 3: I don't know if I could live without that.
Speaker 2: That's fair.
Speaker 1: I don't know what I would. I would probably also say, God,
Speaker 1: I hate to never eat ass again.
Speaker 3: But I do love I do love it so much wonderful.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's why I have lollipops.
Speaker 1: You know, I walk around the house lollipops because I
Speaker 1: like having something in my mouth.
Speaker 2: Okay, so I guess we're both. We're both saying.
Speaker 3: We're just cocksuckers.
Speaker 2: We're just cocksuckers.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I feel like flashbacks to fucking middle
Speaker 1: schools being teased and bully but now we reclaim it cocksuckers. Yes, okay,
Speaker 1: So would you rather have your nipples clamped or your
Speaker 1: balls tapped?
Speaker 3: I'm I'm I'm gagging because I'm in pain just thinking
Speaker 3: about either of those. I don't like pain. I'm very
Speaker 3: pain averse. I'm very sensitive, little baby. We're very sensitive,
Speaker 3: little baby. I would say, I would rather have my
Speaker 3: balls tap my nipples. No, no, no, don't come near
Speaker 3: my nipples with the clamp.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Okay, Well, so I have my nipples pierced. I
Speaker 2: were there, you okay, he.
Speaker 3: Was there, and I had to leave the room.
Speaker 1: I did get it, fierce, We got it, per On.
Speaker 1: Was it Christmas Eve? It was Christmas Eve?
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah?
Speaker 3: It was Christmas. It was a.
Speaker 1: Holiday, and we were spending the holiday in l A.
Speaker 1: And I have been wanting to get my nipples pierced
Speaker 1: since I was like in college forever. I've talked about
Speaker 1: it but been so scared and then I don't, you know,
Speaker 1: whatever the trauma of the holidays are.
Speaker 2: I kind of woke up and was like, I want
Speaker 2: to get.
Speaker 1: A pierced Matthew, and so we took a family trip
Speaker 1: to the Nipple Shop, a piercing place adornments absolutely, and
Speaker 1: we chose. I chose the one I wanted, the climp
Speaker 1: or the pierce that I wanted. And it took forever
Speaker 1: because they said my nipples were so small that it
Speaker 1: was taking them longer to somebody is cringing right now
Speaker 1: that sweating it just it took so long, and the
Speaker 1: worst part is it eventually fell out and I had
Speaker 1: to go back and they had to repierce it.
Speaker 3: I am glad I was present that you.
Speaker 2: Weren't there for that.
Speaker 1: I would say, although if you haven't had your balls tapped,
Speaker 1: it can be kind of hot. I had somebody do
Speaker 1: that to me once and I was like, oh, I
Speaker 1: actually kind of enjoyed that, but I'm probably gonna say
Speaker 1: I would rather wriind it.
Speaker 2: Bulls clamped. Then my ball's tapped. Okay, there are tracks.
Speaker 2: How do you, Matthew?
Speaker 1: Would you rather accidentally send a nude to your doctor
Speaker 1: or your therapist?
Speaker 3: Ooh, my doctor is hot, so I would accidentally send
Speaker 3: my news is hot.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I can't. So we go to the
Speaker 2: same doctor's office.
Speaker 1: We're not going to say which one, but we were
Speaker 1: to the same doctor's office, and there is one doctor there,
Speaker 1: or that is, there are doctors that are very true.
Speaker 1: If there's one in particular who is very, very hot,
Speaker 1: and I won't go to him because you not touching
Speaker 1: nothing in my booty. Hall looking like that, sir, you
Speaker 1: look too good.
Speaker 2: No, no, I like it.
Speaker 3: You like it. I don't. I'm not here for it.
Speaker 3: Its so easy, Okay.
Speaker 2: I hate that.
Speaker 1: I would rather send it to both their ladies, so
Speaker 1: neither of one of them would like it. So I
Speaker 1: would rather not send it to anyone. But if I
Speaker 1: had to choose, if it weren't who let me choose it,
Speaker 1: not as my actual doctor in therapist, but a doctor
Speaker 1: or a therapist.
Speaker 2: I would choose.
Speaker 1: A doctor because I feel like they'd be like, well,
Speaker 1: it's anatomy.
Speaker 3: And there wouldn't be follow up conversations like let's just
Speaker 3: like why this to me?
Speaker 2: And I could be like, oh my godness, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1: I had a wart and I accidentally, I will tell
Speaker 1: you sorry, I did accidentally send a nude. It was terrified, devastated,
Speaker 1: like it was my new like one of my new
Speaker 1: friends that I was working with, and I accident I
Speaker 1: was like also messaging some boy and I was talking
Speaker 1: to my girlfriend and I you know, like how it
Speaker 1: is when you're when you're multitasking, and I.
Speaker 2: Accidentally sent a dude.
Speaker 1: Absolutely and I accidentally sent a nude to my friend
Speaker 1: and who is also my coworker, and like we were
Speaker 1: just getting close.
Speaker 2: I was like, oh I god.
Speaker 1: She was luckily very she already knew that I was
Speaker 1: home sexual, was not trying to come on to her,
Speaker 1: so she was very understanding and loving.
Speaker 2: But I was mortified more to fied.
Speaker 1: And so now I'm I always double check before I
Speaker 1: send anything. And I love the unsend feature and I
Speaker 1: also love thank you Apple for catching up. And I
Speaker 1: love I love the invisible ink so that like if
Speaker 1: you you send it on. I don't know if Androids
Speaker 1: had this, but I know for Apple you can send
Speaker 1: it in like an invisible way, and so like if
Speaker 1: you sent an accent, yes, you just be like, hey,
Speaker 1: don't don't fucking download happen?
Speaker 2: Well, fabulous you want Hey, what do I win my
Speaker 2: unconditional love? Honey?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you get more of it? Okay, you can't
Speaker 1: have enough of it, it's not fair. Oh wait, look
Speaker 1: what time it is. It's time for messy Mail, where
Speaker 1: we read out some of the messy patron stories and submissions.
Speaker 1: As always, if you have prompts or games or anything
Speaker 1: like that, or your own messy stories, you can email
Speaker 1: them to tell me something messy at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1: And remember everything always remains anonymous. Baby, So we got
Speaker 1: you now. Speaking of Matthew, tell me something messy all right.
Speaker 3: So, as you know, I'm I'm a nature boy. I
Speaker 3: love to go hiking and camping and be outdoors.
Speaker 2: The opposite you won't ever ever.
Speaker 3: For some reason unbeknownst to me, I always get really
Speaker 3: horny when I'm out on nature, okay, really horny. And
Speaker 3: so I was on this one camping trip and we
Speaker 3: I went with one of my besties, my best girlfriends,
Speaker 3: and we were by a river and we always get
Speaker 3: naked and go skinny dipping, and we also like go
Speaker 3: and do our own thing and spend some time apart.
Speaker 3: And so I, being out in nature naked, got horny.
Speaker 3: So I started to jerk off while I was in
Speaker 3: the river, Okay, and not ten or fifteen seconds after
Speaker 3: I came a whole troop of kayakers and whitewater rafters
Speaker 3: went right past me down the river. Oh ten or
Speaker 3: fifteen of them that would have absolutely seen me common
Speaker 3: orgasm if they were but ten seconds earlier.
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Well, kind of a public kink, I guess,
Speaker 1: which is not what you're going for.
Speaker 2: And I didn't.
Speaker 3: I didn't. I didn't know it was public at the time.
Speaker 3: It was a very secluded area. I thought I was safe.
Speaker 2: But was your semen floating in the river?
Speaker 3: Like with the semen was floating in the river and
Speaker 3: I had to dip down underwater so they did not
Speaker 3: see my erect penis?
Speaker 4: Wow?
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 2: Did you submerge your whole body under the water or
Speaker 2: just you're like just the bottom half, just the bottom half?
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, I'm just picturing your semen floating and a
Speaker 1: kayaker going what is that?
Speaker 2: They might have Was it a big load? Was it
Speaker 2: a little load. You come a lot. It was and
Speaker 2: in nature, yeah, oh wow, the nature of it all,
Speaker 2: the edging of it all.
Speaker 3: Okay, it doesn't it does it for me. There's something
Speaker 3: about doing it while you're in the sun and fresh air.
Speaker 2: You love that stuff. I got allergy.
Speaker 3: I love it.
Speaker 2: So it's.
Speaker 1: It's not you watched me take allergy medicine like twice
Speaker 1: a day. I'm doing listen for tea like because you're
Speaker 1: not going to make me out to be crazy on
Speaker 1: this look on my own damn show. So for context,
Speaker 1: I have a lot of fucking allergies. It's actually quite annoying.
Speaker 1: But I finally went to an allergist and I am
Speaker 1: taking like these doses of grass and dust occasionally. So
Speaker 1: it's like it's every morning I take like a little
Speaker 1: dose for grass, and every night I take a little
Speaker 1: dose for dust and do it for a few years.
Speaker 1: I know you do it for a few years and
Speaker 1: it's supposed to build up your immunity or like whatever.
Speaker 1: So the point is that I'm hoping to reunite with
Speaker 1: nature in like three to five years.
Speaker 2: Okay, is that fair? Nobody?
Speaker 3: Listeners, Do not hold your breath, Do not hold your breath.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I would never listen, I would never lie to you,
Speaker 1: never hold your breath.
Speaker 2: But that's my hope.
Speaker 1: My hope is that maybe if it's more comfortable for me,
Speaker 1: yeah and my immune system, that I will enjoy it
Speaker 1: because I do.
Speaker 2: I love of you.
Speaker 1: I love of you. I love seeing the sunset, you know.
Speaker 1: I love looking at the river and the ocean. I
Speaker 1: tend to like to look at it from like a
Speaker 1: rooftop bar. But you know whatever, it's fine.
Speaker 3: Like yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Love a pool side margarita, love a beachside cabana. You know,
Speaker 1: That's how I tend to enjoy it.
Speaker 2: But I'll know I'll get in there, would you?
Speaker 1: And then maybe we could, you know, jerk off in
Speaker 1: nature together one day. Oh maybe it's what maybe one day,
Speaker 1: but do not hold me to.
Speaker 3: A second honeymoon.
Speaker 2: Here we go, Oh my goodness. Okay, anyways, all right, the.
Speaker 1: Next submission, Uh, fucked the woman I'm seeing six times
Speaker 1: in twelve hours.
Speaker 2: She said it felt.
Speaker 1: Like an exorcism. Now, I don't like scary movies. Is
Speaker 1: an exorcism good?
Speaker 3: Not historically, but in this context, I could see how
Speaker 3: oof you just exercised some demons.
Speaker 1: Six times in twelve hours. What's the longest you've ever
Speaker 1: had sex?
Speaker 2: Four? Well, I'm assuming it's not twelve hours straint, but like, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: have you ever done like a twelve hour day of
Speaker 2: like we're just fucking?
Speaker 3: And yes I have in college my boyfriend and I
Speaker 3: were were rather college.
Speaker 2: The stamina nineteen years old, that's stamina.
Speaker 3: And there was one evening that we each we each
Speaker 3: came six times over the course of the night.
Speaker 2: Of the night. How was how many hours?
Speaker 3: Was thish eight to ten?
Speaker 1: Eight to ten hours? And y'all came six times each? Wow,
Speaker 1: I think the most I've ever come. I would say
Speaker 1: maybe three or four times. That's a good number, I think,
Speaker 1: I think, I think, I actually, I think it was
Speaker 1: three times. Was the most that, like, I had come
Speaker 1: in one session. It was a couple hours, but you know,
Speaker 1: because you gotta get it back up. But yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: it felt like an exorcism, which you know, in this
Speaker 1: context does sound lovely. Next question, they said, had sex
Speaker 1: with a coworker on the couch of his boss's office.
Speaker 1: So your co worker, maybe their co worker has a
Speaker 1: different boss or whatever. Either way, had sex with a
Speaker 1: coworker on the couch of his boss's office.
Speaker 2: So, how have you ever done that?
Speaker 3: I have never done that. I get nervous if I
Speaker 3: can get caught. Yeah, I'm not a big like, oh,
Speaker 3: let's let's get caught. That's that. I get too anxious.
Speaker 3: I get to in my head, so I can't enjoy
Speaker 3: something like that very fully.
Speaker 2: That's fair. I will say. The closest that I've come
Speaker 2: to this.
Speaker 1: Was in I guess I could say now in college,
Speaker 1: I was on student council. The building next door to
Speaker 1: our building didn't have a bunch of like they were
Speaker 1: moving a new department in there, so most of the
Speaker 1: offices were empty, and they were moving the student council
Speaker 1: office into that building as well. But again most of
Speaker 1: the building was empty still, especially our floor.
Speaker 2: But we had an.
Speaker 1: Access code as student council members to get into the
Speaker 1: building after hours. So Okay and my then Boothing would
Speaker 1: go to the building at night.
Speaker 2: I would punch in the little code and we would
Speaker 2: go up to whatever.
Speaker 3: Use of power I suddenly.
Speaker 1: We would go to other floor I was, and we
Speaker 1: would pick an empty office. And I will say that
Speaker 1: if they if those carpets have not been pulled up
Speaker 1: since two thousand and nine.
Speaker 2: There's some uh uh, there's some.
Speaker 1: DNA, some semen on some of those carpets. So that's
Speaker 1: the closest I've come. But I'm like you, I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't the the anxiety of getting caught is not
Speaker 1: fun to me. I don't mind public play, but that
Speaker 1: if we're all in agreement that that's what is happening here,
Speaker 1: I'm fine with that. But the idea of like doing
Speaker 1: it somewhere I'm not supposed to, which I get and
Speaker 1: I know people find hot. It puts me in my
Speaker 1: head same, Yeah, it puts me in my head.
Speaker 2: Ready for my messy pic.
Speaker 3: I'm ready.
Speaker 1: Okay, So today I want to talk about something that
Speaker 1: you know has been mentioned in a bunch of episodes
Speaker 1: and I keep getting emailed about, which is polyamory.
Speaker 2: And so you already if you've been.
Speaker 1: Here, if you're new here, hello, But you know that
Speaker 1: I am in a polyamorous relationship. My husband and I
Speaker 1: have been together for nine years. We started open and
Speaker 1: then it slowly went into polyamory. I now have a
Speaker 1: boyfriend who have been with for.
Speaker 2: Almost a year.
Speaker 1: And so because we keep getting questions, Matthew and I
Speaker 1: are going to have this like polyamorous discussion about our
Speaker 1: journey to polyamory, and so shall we do it?
Speaker 3: Uh?
Speaker 1: Huh Okay, this one says, can you talk about ethical
Speaker 1: non monogamy, mismatch and desire communication help?
Speaker 2: I need communication tips.
Speaker 1: I feel like the conversation needs more time and needs
Speaker 1: nuance and needs space for that. We are talking about
Speaker 1: polyamory now a little bit more in culture. But I
Speaker 1: will say that Matthew and I have been together for
Speaker 1: nine years. We've been open for what like seven seven
Speaker 1: those six or seven, Yeah, and we've we've in those
Speaker 1: six or seven years have seen the conversations go from
Speaker 1: what the fuck are y'all doing?
Speaker 2: To oh your polyo?
Speaker 1: So like we've watched culture open up around it. But
Speaker 1: understand that there is a lot of misunderstandings about what
Speaker 1: polyamoryan on monogamy is. There's a lot of opinions, a
Speaker 1: lot of nasty opinions, not so nice opinions about it.
Speaker 1: And I, you know, what I do on Instagram is
Speaker 1: is what I do.
Speaker 2: And I never want.
Speaker 1: To bring my partner into the chaos of what it
Speaker 1: means for me to be public facing and especially around
Speaker 1: this subject. And so it made the most sense to
Speaker 1: me to talk about this with my husband as opposed
Speaker 1: to just by myself. So we're gonna talk about it.
Speaker 1: We're gonna get into it. Are you ready to get
Speaker 1: into it?
Speaker 3: Baby? I'm so read I love, We're.
Speaker 2: So excited about this. Yes, we've uh. Well, let's start
Speaker 2: by defining what polyamory is. So.
Speaker 1: Polyamory or consensual non monogamy is the practice of having
Speaker 1: multiple intimate relationships, whether sexual or just romantic, with the
Speaker 1: full knowledge and consent of all parties involved. Matthew, does
Speaker 1: that definition feel good to you?
Speaker 3: I like that definition. I really love the emphasis on
Speaker 3: full knowledge and consent of all of all parties. That's
Speaker 3: very important.
Speaker 1: Let me actually messy, key key, Matthew and I are
Speaker 1: going to talk about polyamorne non monogamy, open relationships and
Speaker 1: what it means to us and our relationship. But the
Speaker 1: thing about this conversation is that other people have their
Speaker 1: own versions of what this looks like, and so please
Speaker 1: do not take anything that we're saying here as law.
Speaker 1: This is just a conversation, a jumping off point, something
Speaker 1: for you to use in your own research or to
Speaker 1: use for your own experience. But it's not that this
Speaker 1: is the way or the only way or the only
Speaker 1: definitions of things. You'll notice that some people will say
Speaker 1: that's not polyamory and that's not open or whatever. My
Speaker 1: feelings about that before we dive in is don't yuck
Speaker 1: somebody's yem and stop gatekeeping. I think a lot of
Speaker 1: times people in oppressed groups or marginalized groups and this
Speaker 1: has this could be about polyamory, this could be about race,
Speaker 1: this could be about gender sexual orientation will then begin
Speaker 1: to gate keep themselves and it's like, no, we should
Speaker 1: all just be trying to get free. And so whatever
Speaker 1: works for you. As I always say, as long as
Speaker 1: you're not hurting yourself or anybody else, go off. So
Speaker 1: we started our relationship as open, and I would define open.
Speaker 1: The difference for me between open and Polly is that
Speaker 1: the openness was not about intimate relationships. The openness was
Speaker 1: just about being able to have sex with other people.
Speaker 2: Would you agree?
Speaker 3: Yeah? And in fact, when we first opened so we
Speaker 3: had been monogamous for about two years or so, and
Speaker 3: the first time we opened it, we actually had a
Speaker 3: rule of no penetrative sex.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm, yeah.
Speaker 3: So it was just engaging sexually with others, but we
Speaker 3: weren't penetrating, and then eventually we talked about penetrating and
Speaker 3: how do we do that safely?
Speaker 1: And yeah, it was we were like, you know, it's
Speaker 1: like if you're out at a club and you meet
Speaker 1: a hottie and you want to make out with them
Speaker 1: and you want to go into the bathroom and give
Speaker 1: them a blow job, like go off, Like I'm not
Speaker 1: pressed about that, but yeah, it did start.
Speaker 2: And I think the beauty if.
Speaker 1: You bring up a point that it didn't start with
Speaker 1: penetrative is that I think sometimes when people want to
Speaker 1: open their relationships or move into polly, they want to
Speaker 1: go to ten right away, right And it's very fine
Speaker 1: for you to start at one or two, which is like, hey,
Speaker 1: we're going to open this, but there are a couple
Speaker 1: rules here, a bunch of rules here, because you're also
Speaker 1: still building trust inside of the relationship and wanting space
Speaker 1: for failure to happen so that you can learn and
Speaker 1: process and grow together before expanding it even further. If
Speaker 1: it's all, if it's a free for all, if you
Speaker 1: are not yourself, if you don't identify as a polyamorous
Speaker 1: person or a non monogamous person. Then to start at
Speaker 1: attend is not necessarily the.
Speaker 2: I want to.
Speaker 1: Say, the safest emotionally safe is really what we're talking about,
Speaker 1: because we've been indoctrinated in the monogamous culture. So why
Speaker 1: would you suddenly know how to do non monogamy or
Speaker 1: polyamory when you haven't seen it. So we started open,
Speaker 1: and then this is how I remember it kind of expanding,
Speaker 1: was that we were open and correct me if I'm wrong.
Speaker 2: I think Matthew was having a good.
Speaker 1: Time and I was having a harder time because what
Speaker 1: I realized and what I learned through this whole journey
Speaker 1: and through this polyamor's journey, was that hookups.
Speaker 2: Didn't do it for me.
Speaker 1: That I had a harder time just like meeting somebody
Speaker 1: and hooking up and then being done with it. Even
Speaker 1: as we moved into penetrative or the rules of penetration
Speaker 1: being allowed, I just had a hard time. I needed connection,
Speaker 1: I needed intimacy. And so we gradually started to I think,
Speaker 1: work our way into expanding the definition of what open.
Speaker 2: Could look like.
Speaker 1: We're not I don't think we were quite at Polly.
Speaker 1: So it wasn't quite like, oh, you're in a relationships
Speaker 1: with other people. It was just the ability to have
Speaker 1: an emotional connection was introduced, that this could be really
Speaker 1: your friend, a little you know, a little your friend
Speaker 1: with benefits, something that you have an emotional connection to.
Speaker 2: Would you agree?
Speaker 3: I agree, Yeah, just like some consistency. And and I
Speaker 3: even found that with myself that I like, if I
Speaker 3: was with somebody that I liked, I liked what the
Speaker 3: sex was like, I liked them as a person, I
Speaker 3: wanted to keep going back. I wanted to maintain that
Speaker 3: connection and build on that connection. Yes, And so I
Speaker 3: think I think I think we both just naturally are
Speaker 3: very emotional relational people, and so we kind of in
Speaker 3: our own ways gravitated towards that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because sometimes with open relationships, I think I think
Speaker 1: this was our original rule.
Speaker 2: It was kind of like a one and done.
Speaker 1: Yes, like you couldn't do repeats, which is I think
Speaker 1: a normal rule that some people have when they open
Speaker 1: the relationship because you're trying to avoid the emotional.
Speaker 2: Attachment, the emotional connection.
Speaker 1: Yes, another rule of ours, which is still a rule
Speaker 1: which I would say, Now we have a lot less
Speaker 1: rules in our in our poly life, but we don't
Speaker 1: fuck each other's friends is a is a big rule.
Speaker 1: So listen, we're in Los Angeles, and so you have
Speaker 1: to really define what a friend is, because I do,
Speaker 1: because because like he's like, I could meet somebody and
Speaker 1: math you could meet somebody and we could, oh we're cool,
Speaker 1: but they're not friends enough yet, and so we don't
Speaker 1: know that either of us has a relationship with that person.
Speaker 1: So we were like, if that happens, and like, you
Speaker 1: fuck that person and then you find out after that
Speaker 1: it's somebody that I'm a friend of, no problem whatever.
Speaker 1: But if we knowingly know that this is, you know,
Speaker 1: one of our friends, then it's off the table.
Speaker 3: Off the table, yeah, and not you.
Speaker 1: Know, listen, I'm not saying that you can't that it
Speaker 1: can't work for another relationship, but for us, it felt
Speaker 1: like this is a this is a guard rail that
Speaker 1: feels important so that we can preserve friendships, yes, preserve
Speaker 1: our individual friendships, not get anything muddy or complicated. So
Speaker 1: it was a rule that there's no sex with each
Speaker 1: other's friends. And then when do you think that we
Speaker 1: like fully stepped into the poll of it all, Like
Speaker 1: how many years were we in?
Speaker 3: I feel like I feel like it was around three
Speaker 3: years ago. Maybe I think we had been open for
Speaker 3: three years, give or take.
Speaker 1: I think what happened was, yes, you're right, because three
Speaker 1: years ago I had met somebody and I was.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, I was seeing someone very consistently same thing.
Speaker 3: It was originally very very sex based, but we just
Speaker 3: sort of hit it off. Our personalities really went well together,
Speaker 3: we developed feelings for each other, and I think that
Speaker 3: was the first time that I was like, oh, okay,
Speaker 3: this is different than being in an open relationship. And
Speaker 3: so I remember you and I having a conversation over
Speaker 3: dinner one night, like how do we feel about the
Speaker 3: idea of bringing relationship into our nominogamy? What would that
Speaker 3: look like? What would that feel like? And I think
Speaker 3: we were able to just have a really open, curious
Speaker 3: conversation about like, what's the intention behind that, where could
Speaker 3: that go? What is each of our individual capacity to
Speaker 3: handle that? And it sort of just came, as it
Speaker 3: has through most of this journey, that we were both
Speaker 3: very on the same page, very like, yeah, I love
Speaker 3: connecting deeply to someone, I love getting to know someone.
Speaker 3: I love being able to give part of myself to someone.
Speaker 3: And that doesn't mean that you my partner is going
Speaker 3: to get any less of me.
Speaker 1: You saying that makes me you know when this person
Speaker 1: asks for tips, it's communic communication. It's like the number
Speaker 1: one thing. The only way this works is if you
Speaker 1: and your partner are willing to be radically transparent with
Speaker 1: each other. And you know, one of the things that
Speaker 1: it's also going to come up and we can talk
Speaker 1: about this is jealousy. That's a big question that comes
Speaker 1: up around you know, non monogamy, open relationships, and polymory.
Speaker 1: But you have nothing if you are not able to
Speaker 1: communicate and if anything being you know, open and non
Speaker 1: monogamous and Polly has forced us to get better at
Speaker 1: communicating and to be able to say, oh, this makes
Speaker 1: me feel some type of way and what is that?
Speaker 1: Or I need this from you, or like you can't
Speaker 1: guess there's too many emotions happening. And the other reason
Speaker 1: the communication is important is because Matthew and I in
Speaker 1: our marriage, we're married to each other, we're tied to
Speaker 1: each other, and so there's a solidness there. But if
Speaker 1: we are having relationships outside, that person may not have
Speaker 1: a partner. They might they may not, but there they
Speaker 1: don't have the same quote unquote safety net. And so
Speaker 1: I do think what I've learned in this journey is
Speaker 1: that it's our responsibility as the coupled to also be
Speaker 1: able to show up for them, not that we have
Speaker 1: to be there there like their husband, but that we're
Speaker 1: being sensitive to their needs and their heart and preempting
Speaker 1: things right and asking the questions because I think sometimes
Speaker 1: feedback that I've gotten has been people afraid of asking
Speaker 1: for what they need because they don't want to overstep
Speaker 1: the marriage, if that makes sense. And so I've learned that, oh,
Speaker 1: what that ends up doing is that I'm not able
Speaker 1: to meet your needs because I don't know that what
Speaker 1: you're asking for. And so I've learned that as the
Speaker 1: coupled partner that I have to ask my you know,
Speaker 1: single partner more questions, more directly, what do you need?
Speaker 2: Are you feeling okay? You said this thing? Is that
Speaker 2: really what you mean? Do you need?
Speaker 1: Like you having to not just be honest when someone
Speaker 1: asks the question, but to ask the questions.
Speaker 2: Does that make sense? Oh? Yes, absolutely, to be willing
Speaker 2: to say are you jealous in this moment? Or how
Speaker 2: did that make you feel? Or what do you need?
Speaker 1: Like being able to ask those questions is as equally
Speaker 1: as important as answering a question.
Speaker 3: Honestly, Yeah, I found it incredibly helpful to be able
Speaker 3: to relay to my other partners just how solid you
Speaker 3: and I are and how much we communicate, so that
Speaker 3: they don't have that fear of like, oh gosh, like
Speaker 3: am I coming in and going to interrupt something? Am
Speaker 3: I going to cause drama? And so really being able
Speaker 3: to put them at ease, like you do not need
Speaker 3: to worry about that, like we have this figured out.
Speaker 3: If something comes up, we talk about it. What's really
Speaker 3: important is that you feel safe and comfortable being able
Speaker 3: to share.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 3: I also think it's worth to note here, you know,
Speaker 3: we opened and entered polyamory from a place of like
Speaker 3: how do we add how do we have abundance? We
Speaker 3: love each other, and how do we love more? Yeah,
Speaker 3: we didn't get into it as like a oh, we're
Speaker 3: not doing so well. Let's see if we try this
Speaker 3: out and that will make things better. I think that
Speaker 3: that can be successful. Maybe that is a thing that
Speaker 3: can and help your relationship. But I feel like if
Speaker 3: you're starting with those cracks in the relationship where things
Speaker 3: aren't one hundred percent sturdy. Then there it's more likely
Speaker 3: someone could come in and interrupt it.
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, I love that that it's it's something
Speaker 1: that you're doing as to add to the relationship, not
Speaker 1: fix the relationship. Let's talk about sleepovers. So when we started,
Speaker 1: you know, I have a so I have a boyfriend now,
Speaker 1: which hopefully when this comes out, I will still have
Speaker 1: a boyfriend in so many months, but as of today
Speaker 1: when we're recording this, I have a boyfriend. And so
Speaker 1: sleepovers started to become part of the equation because usually
Speaker 1: we just like didn't we didn't do sleepovers. We knew
Speaker 1: that I think we knew that like a sleepover if
Speaker 1: we kept being polly and kept developing the relationships that
Speaker 1: would need to come on the table. But for us,
Speaker 1: we originally were feeling like, no sleepovers if both of
Speaker 1: us are in the same city. So if you're in
Speaker 1: a different city, if I'm out of town, you're out
Speaker 1: of town, like go off to your thing. But if
Speaker 1: we're both within the same city, let's not. But now
Speaker 1: that I have a boyfriend, it came up this, you know, sleepovers.
Speaker 1: And so I give a lot of credit to my husband,
Speaker 1: to Matthew, because we had the conversation, and I was like,
Speaker 1: I know this is something that this was, this was
Speaker 1: the thing that.
Speaker 2: Made you uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: And I would say Matthew had the rule that we
Speaker 1: were respecting, which is no sleepovers. But in wanting to
Speaker 1: you know, expand our our situation and and and take
Speaker 1: into consideration this new heart that is part of our relationship.
Speaker 1: And when I say part of our relationship, I don't
Speaker 1: mean like in a threuple, it's my boyfriend. Matthew does not.
Speaker 1: Matthew is the metamure, which I should define as well,
Speaker 1: which is your your partner's partner. That's what a meta mirrors.
Speaker 1: So we wanted to you know, expand or the rules,
Speaker 1: and so it was really about testing it. And so
Speaker 1: I think I came to you and said, I want
Speaker 1: to talk about sleepovers. Yes, I think that you know,
Speaker 1: I know that my part my boyfriend wants to do
Speaker 1: a sleepover and I would like to sleepover. But I
Speaker 1: know this makes you uncomfortable. So what like, let's talk
Speaker 1: about what makes you uncomfortable. And where we landed was
Speaker 1: let's try it. And the reason I think this is
Speaker 1: so important is because one of my dear friends from college,
Speaker 1: she is married to a man, and her husband has
Speaker 1: a girlfriend, and during the pandemic, all three of them
Speaker 1: moved in together. And my friend, she said to me,
Speaker 1: when I first met the girlfriend and had the girl
Speaker 1: and the idea of the girlfriend living in the house,
Speaker 1: I thought I was supposed to be jealous. I was
Speaker 1: taught that I was supposed to be jealous. But what
Speaker 1: ended up happening was I as somebody in the house
Speaker 1: doing the dishes and cooking.
Speaker 2: The food, and like, you know what I didn't want
Speaker 2: to do with my husband.
Speaker 1: Like there she was to deal with it, and she
Speaker 1: was like I felt so free, and it was like, oh,
Speaker 1: sometimes you think you're supposed to be jealous, and so
Speaker 1: you're preempting the jealousy as opposed to if you actually
Speaker 1: do it and experience it, you're like, oh, I actually
Speaker 1: didn't feel anything at all. And so our strategy for
Speaker 1: the sleepover was one give advance notice, so here's the
Speaker 1: day that the sleepover.
Speaker 2: Is gonna happen.
Speaker 1: And then the deal was when I came back, we
Speaker 1: would process and be like, how was that?
Speaker 2: Did it feel? Weird?
Speaker 1: What you know, if you hated it or not hated it,
Speaker 1: And so that's what we did, and when we when
Speaker 1: I came home, what was your experience?
Speaker 3: Like? It was fine, Like, I know, I caught myself
Speaker 3: being okay, like what are my actual feelings here? Right?
Speaker 3: Like kind of like what you were saying. There was
Speaker 3: a moment of like, huh, I could easily lean into
Speaker 3: the like yeah, you're gone and I'm alone and this
Speaker 3: doesn't feel good. But that wasn't authentic. That's not what
Speaker 3: I was feeling. I was actually like completely fine with it.
Speaker 3: And I think part of the reason I was fine
Speaker 3: with it is because I had a say in it,
Speaker 3: had I had a decision power in it. And because
Speaker 3: of that, because you allowed me to have agency and
Speaker 3: acknowledge that this is going to impact me and affect
Speaker 3: me so I do play a role in whether it
Speaker 3: happens or not. Allowed me to be like great, cool,
Speaker 3: I'm I am saying I'm okay with this, And if
Speaker 3: I do have feelings, then it's not like I'm going
Speaker 3: to resent you or be mad at you because you
Speaker 3: tried to make this thing happen. But it was like no,
Speaker 3: I was a willing participant.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so important one that you get to have
Speaker 1: your feelings and that inside of this like that no
Speaker 1: one's saying you're not gonna get jealous, you get to
Speaker 1: be jealous. I think it's like, well, how do we
Speaker 1: communicate about that jealousy and finding out if that jealousy
Speaker 1: is even actually there sometimes, but I love the idea
Speaker 1: of giving you agency, like don't just do something and
Speaker 1: then tell your partner later and hope Like it's like,
Speaker 1: let's talk about the thing, and then we were both
Speaker 1: participating in it, and we can find a way to
Speaker 1: participate in a way that keeps us both emotionally safe.
Speaker 3: I think the biggest thing I've gained is knowing a
Speaker 3: part of myself, part of my identity that I didn't
Speaker 3: know before, which is just how much I love love,
Speaker 3: And like, I've always sort of had that idea in
Speaker 3: my head but never really had the language or the
Speaker 3: ability to express it in this way. But I just
Speaker 3: love loving people any way, shape or form, and being
Speaker 3: polyamorous has allowed me to really expand what love looks
Speaker 3: like and really own the fact that I have such
Speaker 3: a reserve of it to give, and being able to
Speaker 3: give it to people, to different people in different ways
Speaker 3: has been so fulfilling.
Speaker 1: I think I've always been Polly but didn't have the
Speaker 1: language for it, because when I look back at the
Speaker 1: relationships before you and I got together, and even when
Speaker 1: you and I first got together, I was never able
Speaker 1: to see the finish line. I was never able to
Speaker 1: see myself old with that same person on the rocking chair,
Speaker 1: like the thing you're taught, which is like we're gonna
Speaker 1: be together forever, We're gonna grow old together. I could
Speaker 1: never see, like the pressure of that always felt crushing.
Speaker 1: But I did not get in relationships because I couldn't
Speaker 1: see it. I was like, well, I'll get there when
Speaker 1: I get there. And so you know, when we first
Speaker 1: got together, Matthew actually said out loud like I'm not
Speaker 1: into non monogamy.
Speaker 2: I don't want to have an open relationship.
Speaker 1: Matthew was also the one two years later to bring
Speaker 1: non monogamy to the table, and both times I was
Speaker 1: very blase about it. The first time I was like, okay,
Speaker 1: like I'm not gonna fight for non monogamy because I
Speaker 1: don't really know what that means either, like I should
Speaker 1: want to be with you forever anyway.
Speaker 2: And then when he did.
Speaker 1: Bring it to the table, I was like okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: like I have no I've actually never had an issue
Speaker 1: with non monogamy. For me, it's always been about or
Speaker 1: even cheating, quote unquote. It's always been about the lying.
Speaker 1: It's never about the person fucking somebody else. I've never like,
Speaker 1: that's like it's the lack of jealousy that I have
Speaker 1: has never been about, you know, the person fucking somebody
Speaker 1: else and not me. It was always the lying about it.
Speaker 1: So it was like, as long as we're open with
Speaker 1: each other about what we're doing, I'm fine. I'm great
Speaker 1: with it. What I think I've gained though from polyamory,
Speaker 1: which I wasn't expecting, Apart from I think stepping into
Speaker 1: a piece of myself that's always kind of existed, and
Speaker 1: this expansion of love is learning in our relationship. We
Speaker 1: can only do so much for each other. Yeah, just
Speaker 1: with our different backgrounds, our different identities, There's only so
Speaker 1: much that you and I can connect with. And this,
Speaker 1: I think for me, what I would say is a
Speaker 1: false idea that your partner should be responsible for all
Speaker 1: of your needs and should be able to connect with
Speaker 1: you on everything. It's like, no, there's a reason why
Speaker 1: you don't have like only one friend, right, you have
Speaker 1: a couple of friends, because each of them brings I
Speaker 1: think somebody I had heard somebody talk about as a mosaic,
Speaker 1: like stop wanting your friends to be perfect. They're a
Speaker 1: mosaic of your life. And so every person doesn't have
Speaker 1: to fulfill every need. They fulfill their buckets. I think
Speaker 1: the same is true in a romantic relationship. It's like
Speaker 1: this one partner doesn't have to be responsible for me
Speaker 1: feeling all the things, for me getting all my cups filled.
Speaker 1: There are other partners that can be part of that.
Speaker 1: One of the things that I always talk about is,
Speaker 1: and we'll go back to it, hiking. I don't bin
Speaker 1: at a camp. Hiking and camping is incredibly important to Matthew.
Speaker 1: It's not something I do instead of it's.
Speaker 2: Not something I do period period.
Speaker 1: But instead of like forcing me to go on the
Speaker 1: hike or the camp that my New Yorker ass doesn't
Speaker 1: want to go on, Matthew has another partner who does
Speaker 1: that with them. I'm obsessed, Like I can listen to
Speaker 1: music all the way the house down, Matthew is not.
Speaker 1: He's not like, oh, I'm going to walk around the
Speaker 1: house with some new music. So like having a partner
Speaker 1: that I can relate with that on is really beautiful,
Speaker 1: and it just frees up the pressure off of our
Speaker 1: marriage and allows our marriage to be to me, a
Speaker 1: very soft landing space because all the needs don't have
Speaker 1: to be filled here. So our relationship for me gets
Speaker 1: to be so safe and so soft because I'm not
Speaker 1: responsible for everything and you're not responsible for my everything.
Speaker 1: And we learned so much from these other partners that
Speaker 1: also informs this marriage as well, and so that's what
Speaker 1: I think, that's what I've gained, is just being able
Speaker 1: to know more of myself, being able to heal parts
Speaker 1: of myself, being able to activate parts of myself.
Speaker 2: That I didn't know.
Speaker 1: We're dormant, which has nothing to do with this marriage,
Speaker 1: because again, like your marriage, that one relationship can only
Speaker 1: do so much, So it's just it's about an expansion.
Speaker 3: The other benefit is that you get to really own
Speaker 3: that you have lots of needs and all of those
Speaker 3: needs deserve to be met. I think a lot of
Speaker 3: times people in relationships run into it like, oh, my partner,
Speaker 3: like my partner doesn't like hiking camping. Therefore I'm going
Speaker 3: to just reject and deny this need. I'm not going
Speaker 3: to go hiking. I'm not going to go camping because
Speaker 3: my partner doesn't want to. I don't want to force
Speaker 3: them to do it, so I'm just going to give
Speaker 3: it up. But instead it's like no, okay, So I'm
Speaker 3: not going to get this with Brandon, but I am
Speaker 3: still going to get this because it is still in
Speaker 3: need that matters.
Speaker 1: Yes, And by the way, this is not like a
Speaker 1: This is not a PSA for poly like if monogamy
Speaker 1: works for you, beautiful, this conversation is really like, oh,
Speaker 1: there's other ways of being in relationship, and this is
Speaker 1: what we've gained from it. I want I want to
Speaker 1: paint a picture of this isn't you know the myths
Speaker 1: that we see where like everyone's jealous or everyone you know,
Speaker 1: y'all just trying to fuck each other. I think I
Speaker 1: saw a myth was like you just want to pass
Speaker 1: less taxes and like, yeah, what do we like, get
Speaker 1: out of here?
Speaker 2: Get out of here? We could?
Speaker 1: Okay, So my love The last question, which I think
Speaker 1: you know to take it back to the to the submission,
Speaker 1: which is what are your tips for a new couple
Speaker 1: wanting to explore non monogamy but having mismatched desires.
Speaker 3: Ooh yeah, I would say take it slow and really
Speaker 3: understand that although your desires may be different, they both
Speaker 3: are valid, they both matter whatever they are, And I
Speaker 3: think instead of falling into the trap of binary thinking,
Speaker 3: look for creative solutions, like it doesn't have to be
Speaker 3: we do this or we do that. What's a third
Speaker 3: or fourth, a fifth way that you can go about
Speaker 3: trying to do this so that everyone can feel safe,
Speaker 3: everyone can get their needs met. And maybe that does
Speaker 3: mean you move a little slower than one partner wants
Speaker 3: to or a little faster than one partner wants to.
Speaker 3: But as long as you're continuously checking in and saying, okay,
Speaker 3: how are we at. What's our barometer meter right now?
Speaker 3: You'll get to where you want to get to.
Speaker 1: I think the key word in your question is explore. Right,
Speaker 1: It's an exploration, and you're doing it together. This is
Speaker 1: your teammates, even if we have mismatched desires, like this
Speaker 1: is my teammate and we're exploring this thing.
Speaker 2: It's not going to be perfect. In fact, it's going
Speaker 2: to be.
Speaker 1: Messy, messy, So like knowing that ahead of time and
Speaker 1: allowing the space for failure, for imperfection, for you to
Speaker 1: get it wrong, as long as you know, oh, this
Speaker 1: is how we talk about it, how we process, and
Speaker 1: how we move forward, and you might actually find it
Speaker 1: requires such radical conversations that you might actually find that
Speaker 1: there are a lot of places where your desires do
Speaker 1: match and you can start from there. The mismatch is fine,
Speaker 1: it's like, it's good to know what both of you
Speaker 1: don't agree on. But in that conversation you'll also find
Speaker 1: well where is the middle ground? Yes, And as Matthew said,
Speaker 1: you know, starts slow. So we start with the tiny
Speaker 1: little thing, which is we both agree to threesome, so
Speaker 1: we both agree that kissing is fine, or we both
Speaker 1: agree when we're out of like the small thing, and
Speaker 1: then you can as that feels good and that feels solid,
Speaker 1: then you can expand from there. I can't impress enough
Speaker 1: that Matthew and I have been together for nine years.
Speaker 1: We've been h Nomena Goes for six or seven years,
Speaker 1: so it's been where we were six seven years ago
Speaker 1: is not where we are now. And it was a
Speaker 1: very slow build and I'm very grateful for that.
Speaker 3: And I think the part of that in that build
Speaker 3: is also to recognize what you're doing individually is you're
Speaker 3: dismantling your internalized heteronormativity. You were given all of these
Speaker 3: rules about what it means to be in relationship and
Speaker 3: what was a trusting, loving relationship, and what you're doing
Speaker 3: and opening up is you're interrogating that and you're asking
Speaker 3: different questions. How can we still maintain trust and love
Speaker 3: but not doing it the way we've been taught And
Speaker 3: that takes time.
Speaker 2: That takes time. Matthew, thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 3: I love for having me my love. I love you, believe.
Speaker 2: I'll talk to you Okay, Bye bye.
Speaker 1: I love my husband. He's the best and I'm so
Speaker 1: glad that he was here today. You already know we're
Speaker 1: hoes here, but hose with heart.
Speaker 2: So before we.
Speaker 1: Get out of here, let me speak to yours, my love.
Speaker 1: No matter what the whole point of this show is
Speaker 1: to create a safe space for everyone, whatever your background,
Speaker 1: whatever your identity, whatever your relationship to sex is, whatever
Speaker 1: your relationship to yourself is. I want you to feel safe,
Speaker 1: and so I want to remind you that you're accepted
Speaker 1: and you're loved here, and that if you don't have
Speaker 1: a community right now, if you don't have a place
Speaker 1: where you feel like you can really be yourself. I
Speaker 1: hope that this will be a bridge until you find
Speaker 1: that irl community. But no matter what, if you take
Speaker 1: nothing away, just remember that you matter, that your pleasure matters,
Speaker 1: that your boundaries matter, that your heart matters, that your
Speaker 1: life matters, that you my love, you matter.
Speaker 4: This is one of them when you wonder what your
Speaker 4: role is in this country and what your future is
Speaker 4: in it. How precise are you're going to reconcile yourself
Speaker 4: to your situation here and how you are going to communicate.
Speaker 2: That you are here.
Speaker 4: I'm terrified at the morrow abbathey, the death of the heart,
Speaker 4: which is happening in my country.
Speaker 1: So that is the audio of James Baldwin, which I
Speaker 1: think perfectly sums up how I'm feeling, and I imagine
Speaker 1: how you're feeling as well, which is like, what what.
Speaker 2: Do we do?
Speaker 1: And I don't know if right now is the time?
Speaker 1: You know, this is as I'm recording this, This is Wednesday.
Speaker 1: You're gonna hear this on Thursday or whenever you end
Speaker 1: up listening to it. So it feels a little too
Speaker 1: soon to know exactly what the moves are. But I
Speaker 1: will just share my experience. Of course I am sad.
Speaker 1: Of course I am shocked. I'm not surprised, though. It
Speaker 1: was so interesting talking to my white friends this morning
Speaker 1: versus talking to my black friends this morning. My white
Speaker 1: friends seemed a little more surprised than my black friends,
Speaker 1: which I think is for obvious reasons. To live in
Speaker 1: this country as a black person, as a queer person,
Speaker 1: as a woman, as a trans person, is non binary,
Speaker 1: and then to live at the intersections of all of
Speaker 1: those things. I think you are aware. I know I
Speaker 1: am aware of where I live. The first time that
Speaker 1: this presidency happened was shocking, obviously, coming off the heels
Speaker 1: of an Obama to two terms of Obama. So, like
Speaker 1: you know, we were in our little bubble, and so
Speaker 1: when we heard the news that Hillary had lost, I
Speaker 1: swear like gobsmacked, shocked and really had me go, in
Speaker 1: what ways am I not connected to my country? And
Speaker 1: what ways am I not connected to the other views
Speaker 1: that are out there? How have I been in this
Speaker 1: bubble this time around? I was bracing myself because it
Speaker 1: felt like, well, if we're if we're coming back around,
Speaker 1: and this man has an opportunity to run again. That
Speaker 1: tells me a lot already. Do I have faith that
Speaker 1: this country would elect a woman or a black woman?
Speaker 1: It fucking should. But I'm raised by two dark skinned,
Speaker 1: immigrant black women, and so you know, I've been up
Speaker 1: close as to how this country navigates black women. I
Speaker 1: am non binary, and so I really play, like not play,
Speaker 1: but I moved through masculinity and femininity. You know, I
Speaker 1: was at the gym this morning in a sports spra
Speaker 1: and coachy shorts. I'm very very aware of how people
Speaker 1: treat femininity and how people respond and react to it.
Speaker 1: So again, none of it is surprising, but it is
Speaker 1: very sobering and sad, and there's grief and there's anger.
Speaker 2: Rage.
Speaker 1: Actually, that rage and that sadness they really play together.
Speaker 1: So what does that mean? Because you know, I don't
Speaker 1: want to, Like at the gym on Monday and a
Speaker 1: messy patron, a fellow hoe walked up to me as
Speaker 1: I was walking towards the shower and he was like,
Speaker 1: how are you feeling about tomorrow? And I was like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, I voted and all that, and he
Speaker 1: looked so devastated. He was white, because like I was
Speaker 1: hoping that you would be you know, I guess more energetic,
Speaker 1: more affirming, and I just wasn't. And I felt bad
Speaker 1: about it because I was like, oh, I feel bad
Speaker 1: that I'm.
Speaker 2: Not more optimistic. Listen. I wasn't like, oh, it's not
Speaker 2: gonna happen.
Speaker 1: But I was just like, I I'm not letting my
Speaker 1: I'm not hanging my hopes on this. I'm not going
Speaker 1: to get my hopes up for this. I'm gonna do
Speaker 1: what I'm supposed to do. I'm gonna say what I
Speaker 1: need to say. I'm gonna have the conversations I need
Speaker 1: to have. I'm gonna show up how I need to
Speaker 1: show up. But I'm also there's a lot of evidence
Speaker 1: here of where I live and this what we are
Speaker 1: up against. And so I was like, I don't know.
Speaker 1: And now that it's happened, there are a couple things
Speaker 1: that I feel. One it's not a relief, but it's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: the thing happened. The thing that we were afraid of
Speaker 1: happening happened, So now I don't need to worry about
Speaker 1: it happening or not. I don't know if there's a
Speaker 1: piece in that. It's like it happened, and here we
Speaker 1: are and we're awake and we have to move forward,
Speaker 1: and so how do we do that? The other piece
Speaker 1: I think that came up for me is how do
Speaker 1: I protect the people that I love most? That we
Speaker 1: are more vulnerable than we ever been, y'all. This is
Speaker 1: I really came into this booth like, oh, I don't
Speaker 1: know what I'm gonna say about this, but I know
Speaker 1: I need to say something.
Speaker 2: So forgive me.
Speaker 1: As I'm processing, you're like literally hearing me process this
Speaker 1: with you out loud in real time, and so it's
Speaker 1: not as articulate as I would like it to be,
Speaker 1: because this is not an articulate time. It's a really imperfect, messy, sloppy,
Speaker 1: fucked up time. And so this thing that I'm sharing
Speaker 1: also feels that way too. So let me pivot in
Speaker 1: this way, which is I feel very protective. I feel
Speaker 1: protective of you. I feel protective of my chosen family.
Speaker 1: I feel protective of my blood relatives. I feel protective
Speaker 1: of my friends, my community. One thing I do know is,
Speaker 1: no matter what we are in this together, I know
Speaker 1: that my ancestors have navigated far darker times and have
Speaker 1: made a way for me to even be sitting here
Speaker 1: talking to you. I know that the work that we
Speaker 1: do together is even more important. Us Being able to
Speaker 1: talk about our bodies, talk about sex, talk about intersectionality,
Speaker 1: talk about queerness, talk about women's pleasure, queer folks pleasure
Speaker 1: is even more important. I know that you know. Saying
Speaker 1: that I'm pro love and pro choice and pro black
Speaker 1: and protrans and pro queer and pro hoe is even
Speaker 1: more important.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: I want you to feel whatever you're feeling, however the
Speaker 1: sadness comes, however the grief comes, feel it, but also
Speaker 1: know that you're not alone. That we are in this together.
Speaker 1: And that's not just some like spiritual bullshit that people
Speaker 1: say to you know, it's not thoughts and prayers like
Speaker 1: there is work.
Speaker 2: To be done. That is clear.
Speaker 1: We are in a country that is divided, that is clear.
Speaker 1: But there are also vulnerable people in those red states.
Speaker 1: There are also queer folks and women and people who
Speaker 1: need gender affirming healthcare, who need the right to abortion access,
Speaker 1: who deserve to have African American studies, who deserve people
Speaker 1: to say gay and queer and trans and non binary.
Speaker 1: There are people that need that and deserve that access.
Speaker 1: And so for those of us who are in spaces
Speaker 1: where we feel safe enough. I do believe it is
Speaker 1: our responsibility to feel our feels, but to also continue
Speaker 1: to show up, especially for those who aren't able to.
Speaker 1: Right now, think about kids, I think about queer kids.
Speaker 1: I was thinking about oh, thinking about how Paris is burning.
Speaker 1: That documentary which if you haven't seen it, highly recommend,
Speaker 1: and it documents black and brown folks in New York
Speaker 1: City in the ball culture, and I was thinking about
Speaker 1: how when that was being filmed, I was little baby,
Speaker 1: not even thinking about queerness, but that those people who
Speaker 1: were so unapologetically themselves and found community with each other
Speaker 1: and were being spit on and harassed and killed still
Speaker 1: showed up as themselves, still fought to be themselves, and
Speaker 1: because of them, I'm able to exist.
Speaker 2: And so it is.
Speaker 1: I can't even imagine not continuing to show up for
Speaker 1: the next generation that's coming up underneath me, underneath us.
Speaker 1: I hope you got something out of this, which is
Speaker 1: that this is devastating, and this is awful and it's tragic,
Speaker 1: and we need to acknowledge that it's all those things.
Speaker 2: But you're not alone. I'm not alone. We will make away.
Speaker 1: And I love you more than ever, more than ever,
Speaker 1: it is important for me to say that I love you,
Speaker 1: I see you. You matter, who you are, your identity,
Speaker 1: how you identify it matters. It fucking matters. Do not
Speaker 1: let some election results persuade you into thinking otherwise. You matter,
Speaker 1: and I love you? All right, homekeeping and then I'm
Speaker 1: out of here. You can find Matthew on Instagram at
Speaker 1: Matthew Underscore Raymond eighteen or his website Matthew Raymondtherapy dot com.
Speaker 1: You can find me on Instagram at Brandon Kyle Goodman.
Speaker 1: You can also join the community on substack, the Messy
Speaker 1: Monday Substack. When you subscribe, you'll get bonus episodes from
Speaker 1: the show, essays inspired by the podcast, recommendations, and more.
Speaker 1: I believe that's Brandon called Goodman dot substack dot com,
Speaker 1: but if you go on my Instagram or my website
Speaker 1: you'll find it also.
Speaker 2: I want to hear from you.
Speaker 1: Send your topic ideas, your submissions, your stories, recommendations, anything
Speaker 1: to tell me something messy at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2: You can also call.
Speaker 1: Us at six six nine sixty nine messy. Yeah, bitch,
Speaker 1: I gotta fucking call line.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: That's six six nine six nine six three seven seven
Speaker 1: nine for you hos who grew up after Landlines, and
Speaker 1: make sure you check the show notes because that's where
Speaker 1: we will have links for the resources, uh you know,
Speaker 1: some extra material, some extra things for you to dive
Speaker 1: into based off the conversations we've been having today. And rate,
Speaker 1: review and share this podcast with all of your HOE
Speaker 1: or aspiring HOE friends. You know, reading the podcast really
Speaker 1: helps us get to new listeners and really.
Speaker 2: Helps the success of the show. And we want the
Speaker 2: show to be successful. Baby.
Speaker 1: And if y'all find out how to pay less taxes
Speaker 1: being polyamorous, please let me know.
Speaker 2: Please, I'm down. I'm down to save some coin.
Speaker 1: I'm always doing much taxes, but I'm down to save
Speaker 1: some coin, honey, So let me know.
Speaker 2: Let me know, and don't forget that.
Speaker 1: We have our Merch Drop, Our Messy Merch Drop, currently
Speaker 1: running until November tenth at Brandon Call Goodman dot com
Speaker 1: backslash merch.
Speaker 2: That's it, that's.
Speaker 1: Everything, get us everything until we meet again. Ask about
Speaker 1: the politics of that dick before you make it spit.
Speaker 2: Make sure they eat.
Speaker 1: The kitty before they beat the kitty, before fucation or
Speaker 1: sucation communication.
Speaker 2: And in case you haven't heard it, yet today you
Speaker 2: are so deeply loved. I love you.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to Tell Me Something Messy.
Speaker 1: If you all enjoyed the show, the episode to someone
Speaker 1: else who might like it. Tell Me Something Messy was
Speaker 1: executive produced by Ali Perry, Gabrielle Collins, and Yours Truly.
Speaker 1: Our producer and editor is Vince Dejohnny. For more podcasts
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