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Speaker 1: At the conclusion of the previous episode, you heard my

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Speaker 1: source Alan Carter mention a series of accidents, suicides, and

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Speaker 1: other strange deaths in Parker County, in fact Wright in Weatherford.

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Speaker 1: Several sources I spoke to, including Alan, claimed that many

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Speaker 1: of those deaths tied directly back to the murders of

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Speaker 1: Shelley and Vincent in some way. I understand that's a big,

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Speaker 1: bold assertion. When I first heard this, I honestly had

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Speaker 1: one of those moments. Okay, I get it. The frustration

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Speaker 1: of an unsolved teenage double murder case, a lack of

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Speaker 1: results from the local PD. Add the conspiracy mindset that's

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Speaker 1: so common today. Any death of a team becomes suspicious,

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Speaker 1: the confusion of a mishandled investigation, no arrests forty something

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Speaker 1: years later. It's a basic human response. When no answers

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Speaker 1: present themselves, you begin to question everything. You begin to

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Speaker 1: think systemic corruption. It's rare, but it does take place.

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Speaker 1: So I put my investigative cap on and decided to

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Speaker 1: take a serious look into some of these cases in

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Speaker 1: Parker County. Now, let me ask you, so, are there

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Speaker 1: any other murders before or after this that have a

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Speaker 1: similar kind of ring to them that begin to tell

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Speaker 1: a tale of like, wow, there's something bigger going on here.

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Speaker 2: There's one I know.

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Speaker 3: His name is Jimmy Joe Hayes, and I know he

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Speaker 3: was a younger guy and he was found next to

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Speaker 3: the lake. He had allegedly hung himself. It was ruled

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Speaker 3: as a suicide, but he was found hanging with his

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Speaker 3: hands tied behind his back, his feet tied up, and

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Speaker 3: then his dog shot underneath his feet.

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Speaker 1: Wow, okay put his.

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Speaker 2: Rule of suicide.

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Speaker 3: And so I know a lot of people have kind

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Speaker 3: of brought him up, and you know that doesn't really

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Speaker 3: set well with the suicide. I don't know about you,

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Speaker 3: but I don't know how man to tie my hands

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Speaker 3: behind my back and my feet and then try to

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Speaker 3: figure out how to hang myself.

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Speaker 2: But I mean, I don't know. Maybe a magician can.

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Speaker 1: I must say that working with mel Mitchell over the

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Speaker 1: years on these cases has taught me many things. She

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Speaker 1: is a tenacious, driven, insatiable investigator working for a very

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Speaker 1: large private investigation firm, Blackfish, and she does not stop

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Speaker 1: until she finds an answer or exhausts every avenue, which

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Speaker 1: is what these cases need. She also refuses to take

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Speaker 1: any shit from anyone, which I admire and respect immensely.

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Speaker 1: In researching all of these strange deaths, murders, accidents, and suicides,

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Speaker 1: Mel Mitchell did something which needs to be recognized and acknowledged,

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Speaker 1: something that's vital in cold case work.

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Speaker 2: I was trying to understand.

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Speaker 3: How they did things back in the eighties, which clearly

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Speaker 3: is a lot different than now we're talking about. Like

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Speaker 3: I guess the investigators are also cross trained in some

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Speaker 3: pathology and some you know, some classes within you know,

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Speaker 3: medical examers. They could actually determine okay, suicide, homicide, you know,

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Speaker 3: undetermined whether or not needs to go.

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Speaker 2: Off, and you know, have an autopsy.

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Speaker 3: But it was a JP back then that would actually

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Speaker 3: make the determination, Okay, you know what, it's a suicide.

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Speaker 2: You know what, it's a homicide.

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Speaker 1: Mel is referring to the justice of the piece when

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Speaker 1: she says JP, And what impresses me about her research

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Speaker 1: is how she places her investigation in the year twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty five back into the context of nineteen eighty three,

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Speaker 1: which is so very important when trying to develop new

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Speaker 1: information in a cold case, when you are trying to

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Speaker 1: figure out what might have been missed. You have to

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Speaker 1: look at things the way in which investigators did at

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Speaker 1: that time. And when you do that in this case,

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Speaker 1: as Mel pointed out, obvious signs of the potential to

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Speaker 1: corrupt and muddy an investigation emerge. One insider could easily

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Speaker 1: cover up a lot of crime. Three or four could

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Speaker 1: change the entire course of a murder case. It sounds

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Speaker 1: to me like a clusterfuck. That's what it sounds like.

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Speaker 1: This whole thing. Like from the moment that they showed

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Speaker 1: up at that scene, nobody did anything right.

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Speaker 2: No, they did not, oh one hundred percent.

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Speaker 3: And those people that had that would talk to us

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Speaker 3: will tell you, yes, nothing was done right. And that's

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Speaker 3: why it's mind boggling to me, because right around that

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Speaker 3: time period, like six weeks after their murders, there was

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Speaker 3: two other murders that happened at the lake and it

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Speaker 3: was a couple and they were I believe shot in

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Speaker 3: their vehicle and then that vehicle was pushed off into lake. Anyway,

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Speaker 3: but they found the guy done in Austin within a

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Speaker 3: couple of weeks, and I'm like, okay, so you guys

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Speaker 3: are able to process that scene and actually find out

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Speaker 3: whose guy is and the locate on way down Austin,

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Speaker 3: and you do all that right, but within six weeks

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Speaker 3: time period, you can't do anything right with these kids.

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Speaker 1: I mentioned the murder of that couple in an earlier

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Speaker 1: episode of the podcast. That case doesn't appear to be

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Speaker 1: connected to any of the cases here, but the point

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Speaker 1: Mel makes is noted. The Weatherford Police Department publicized that

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Speaker 1: they had cleared all the murders in town over a

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Speaker 1: ten year period, including when d Robinson's. They'd cleared everything

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Speaker 1: except Shelley and Vincent's, which says something. What was it

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Speaker 1: about Shelley and Vincent's murders stifling progress? Within the first

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Speaker 1: six months, the Weatherford Police Department reported to the media

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Speaker 1: they had eleven law enforcement agencies working on the case,

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Speaker 1: and the Weatherford PD had amassed over three hundred hours

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Speaker 1: in overtime alone and not a single solid lead or suspect.

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Speaker 1: Was there someone deeply involved behind the scenes, pushing the

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Speaker 1: investigation off course at every opportunity. Remember when Mel and

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Speaker 1: I met in front of the funeral home and Mel

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Speaker 1: went inside and asked about embombing records for Shelley and Vincent.

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Speaker 1: She had made contact with someone at the funeral home

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty five during one of my trips to Texas.

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Speaker 1: The woman was extremely helpful during that first conversation Mel

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Speaker 1: had with her. Yes, absolutely, we keep all the records.

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Speaker 1: I'll find the ones you're looking for and call you,

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Speaker 1: she told Mel. Important to keep in mind is that

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Speaker 1: those notes from the embomber Mel was searching for would

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Speaker 1: give a complete and very detailed description of the bodies

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Speaker 1: during the embalming process when the bodies were being prepared

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Speaker 1: for viewing in burial. Any injury, any blemish to the skin,

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Speaker 1: any anomaly would have been noted. That same woman who

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Speaker 1: was so friendly the first time Mel spoke to her,

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Speaker 1: turned stand offish the next time they had a conversation

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Speaker 1: and passed the baton off to higher ups. So Mel

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Speaker 1: got one of the managers on the phone. After playing

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Speaker 1: tag for a bit, I did tell him.

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Speaker 3: I was like, well, I was like, through some back channels,

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Speaker 3: we'll leave it there now. I did a copy of

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Speaker 3: a Shelley's on TOOS report and he's like, okay, we

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Speaker 3: also found out that we were missing Shelley's in mommer report.

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Speaker 2: You know. I found out that they have a file

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Speaker 2: and I was like, there's no hippo violations.

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Speaker 1: The point is handing over an embombing report is not

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Speaker 1: the same as handing over medical records. Yet, out of

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Speaker 1: all the embombing reports they had, even as far back

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Speaker 1: as nineteen eighty three and before, all of which had

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Speaker 1: the embombing notes inside the file, Mel was told, guess

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Speaker 1: which two reports did not have embombing notes when they checked.

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Speaker 1: Shelley and Vincent's so.

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Speaker 3: When you talk about crush, you're talking about someone who

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Speaker 3: actually really knew how to cover themselves up, because who

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Speaker 3: would even think to go after an embalming report. And

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Speaker 3: He's like, well, I want it either, And I'm like, exactly,

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Speaker 3: that's my point because it was showing her external injuries.

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Speaker 1: Mel reached out to Lance Arnold, the Weatherford Police Department

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Speaker 1: chief from twenty seventeen to twenty twenty four, who expressed

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Speaker 1: interest in talking to me for the podcast, but then,

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Speaker 1: like many others in law enforcement involved in this case, today,

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Speaker 1: disappeared and stopped responding to my requests without even having

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Speaker 1: the courtesy to tell me no. Each time. It was

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Speaker 1: the same scenario. At first, they had no problem talking

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Speaker 1: to me, some were even eager, but as time went

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Speaker 1: by and they must have spoken to friends or those

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Speaker 1: in positions of high authority from that point on, they

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Speaker 1: ghosted me. That says a lot. After forty plus years,

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Speaker 1: what is there to hide? Why wouldn't you want to

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Speaker 1: make a statement on a worldwide podcast and take the

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Speaker 1: opportunity to reach out to people in your community who

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Speaker 1: might help you solve your town's coldest murder case. Melwood

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Speaker 1: puts several different questions to Chief Arnold, some of which

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Speaker 1: included the condition of Shelley's body and if in fact

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Speaker 1: she had been raped and beaten.

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Speaker 3: And he's like, well, I don't know if she had

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Speaker 3: external injuries, and like, what do you mean. He's like, well,

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Speaker 3: I saw the photos of her and Vins in the car,

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Speaker 3: and he's like, for maybe ten fifteen seconds, I saw

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Speaker 3: her body that was in the morgue, you know, when

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Speaker 3: she was unclothed. And he's like, I don't remember seeing

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Speaker 3: any external injuries.

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Speaker 2: But he's like, but don't quote me on that, because

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Speaker 2: only it's not for like fifteen seconds. It's been like

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Speaker 2: five years ago.

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Speaker 3: And I'm like, okay, well, what I am going to

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Speaker 3: tell you is that if the mom you know of

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Speaker 3: a murdered child sees all these injuries on body, I'm

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Speaker 3: going to be obviously inclined to believe her because that's her,

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Speaker 3: that's her child that's been really murdered. He's like, no,

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Speaker 3: one hundred percent, I absolutely agree.

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Speaker 2: If if the.

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Speaker 3: Mom's what, if that's what the mom saw, then then

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Speaker 3: that's what you have to go on.

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Speaker 2: Because he's right.

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Speaker 3: He's like, I'm not stuff like fifteen seconds, but I

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Speaker 3: don't remember seeing anything on her body from the morgue,

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Speaker 3: and I do remember seeing seeing her.

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Speaker 2: Had clothing on in the car.

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Speaker 3: What I kind of pieced together with him and when

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Speaker 3: I'm what I kind of had thought about enough is

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Speaker 3: I don't think they.

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Speaker 2: Were giving Arnold the whole story. I personally don't.

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Speaker 3: I don't think the investigators were giving Arnold because you know,

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Speaker 3: he created this cold case unit. You know, he said

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Speaker 3: we had They got together once a day, I mean

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Speaker 3: once a week, They work once you know, once a week,

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Speaker 3: and they come back to him monthly give him updates

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Speaker 3: on it. So he's not going to have the fine

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Speaker 3: details and everything going on in the case. They're just

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Speaker 3: gonna give him the broad overview. Okay, that's what we

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Speaker 3: found this we have you know, probably made ten to

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Speaker 3: fifteen minute briefing and that's about it. When I'm talking

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Speaker 3: about this, he's like, yeah, I think the kids were

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Speaker 3: actually killed, you know, in the car. I saw the

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Speaker 3: photos and he's like, you know, it looked like they

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Speaker 3: were probably killed in the car. So I didn't have

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Speaker 3: time to really get into it with him on no,

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Speaker 3: I don't believe that's true. And here's my reasons why.

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Speaker 3: He's like, there's some things about this case I can't

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Speaker 3: tell you about. It's still up an investigation. He's like,

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Speaker 3: I can only give you, you know, bare minimum stuff.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, that's fine.

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Speaker 3: But the more I started talking to him about some stuff,

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Speaker 3: like about finally Kimura and he's like, yeah, i'd heard.

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Speaker 2: Those rumors rumors.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, yeah, okay, but unfortunate as rumors are pretty

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Speaker 3: much true.

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Speaker 2: And he started kind of coming around.

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Speaker 3: Towards end the conversation, he's like, well, yeah, we know

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Speaker 3: that there was a lot of activity going on that

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Speaker 3: shouldn't have been going on back of that time period.

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Speaker 1: Here, once again is part of a conversation with the

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Speaker 1: late Elwood Hohertz, the Weatherford Police Department chief at the

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Speaker 1: time of the murders a tape which I obtained late

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Speaker 1: into my investigation.

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Speaker 4: The only thing is we knew that they got shot

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Speaker 4: somebody sticking inside the right passion and shot him from

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Speaker 4: the right side with them.

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Speaker 1: The interviewer then brings up several points, one that there

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Speaker 1: was definitely a struggle before they were murdered, Two that

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Speaker 1: in speaking with many people attending the wake, abrasions were

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Speaker 1: reported on Shelley's right side nearly from the top of

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Speaker 1: her face to the bottom of her leg. And three

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Speaker 1: how for a fact, from Shelley's face all the way

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Speaker 1: down to her arms had been completely torn up, as

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Speaker 1: if she'd been dragged through a brier patch. Hoehertz responds,

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Speaker 1: confirming as much.

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Speaker 4: It' not torah, but it was noticeable.

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Speaker 1: Then the question of several gashes on Shelley's forehead were posed.

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Speaker 4: I didn't notice that.

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Speaker 1: Another fact gleaned from Shelley's mother, Janetta, if you recall,

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Speaker 1: was that her shoes were pristine, but her feet were filthy.

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Speaker 1: Hoehurtz ignored that and said this.

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Speaker 4: Well, the saying that always interests us. You know, the

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Speaker 4: car radio was on. As soon as you turn on

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Speaker 4: the switch of the car, the radio was running immediately,

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Speaker 4: and we know that they were killed with the car running.

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Speaker 1: Point in fact, the keys were reportedly missing and never

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Speaker 1: found anyway.

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Speaker 4: I was upset that everybody was calling around. People were

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Speaker 4: not trained at up there at Witherford at that time,

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Speaker 4: and they didn't protect the scene. But I'm upset Max

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Speaker 4: Smith and his people going there and going off through

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Speaker 4: that they should have protected the scene.

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Speaker 1: Holehurtz mentions Max Smith there the district attorney at the time.

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Speaker 1: This interview with Hoolehurtz exemplifies a major point from me.

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Speaker 1: If you persist in keep asking the right questions, truth

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Speaker 1: will eventually emerge.

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Speaker 5: Whole.

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Speaker 1: Hurtz was the chief at the time, and here he

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Speaker 1: is acknowledging a lot of the quote unquote rumor we've

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Speaker 1: been hearing. He confirms the injuries Shelley sustained, while at

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Speaker 1: the same time trying his best to back away from

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Speaker 1: a complete confirmation. So clear in this tape as I

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Speaker 1: listened back and studied it carefully, was how much Hohurtz

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Speaker 1: wanted to say but ultimately bit his tongue about that

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Speaker 1: evidence they did collect. Hohurts said there were shellcasings and

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Speaker 1: a used condom both of which could break the case

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Speaker 1: open at some point down the road. According to Hohertz,

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Speaker 1: those items were sent to Fort Worth, a department more

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Speaker 1: skilled in forensics in crime scene investigation than any other

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Speaker 1: department at the time in the region. But when the

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Speaker 1: Weatherford Police Department went back to Fort Worth and asked

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Speaker 1: what had been found from testing those pieces of evidence,

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Speaker 1: the evidence officer there said, I'm sorry, but we can't

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Speaker 1: find any of it.

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Speaker 4: I'm surprised about that. Really, the main part isn't what

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Speaker 4: we're playing. And I always remember they want to take

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Speaker 4: the heat off of me, sure me? Holy hell.

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Speaker 1: According to Hohurtz, the case became political right from the start,

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Speaker 1: and the person he refers to as she there was

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Speaker 1: a top politician in town then, the indication being that

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Speaker 1: all sorts of local politicians and lawyers and other law

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Speaker 1: enforcement officials were getting involved mucking everything up, telling him

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Speaker 1: to basically back the fuck off. And then as Holhurtz's

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Speaker 1: investigators started digging into the case through the evidence collected

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Speaker 1: from the crime scene that they had sent off, things

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Speaker 1: became even more convoluted and quite honestly alarming.

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Speaker 4: I still thank you for the deal, and I think

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Speaker 4: it strict MODI was he couldn't stand the sea a

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Speaker 4: Mexican lady and a white girl.

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Speaker 1: Hoehurtz is referring to one of the names I have censored,

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Speaker 1: and that politically connected person following him to the polygraph, and.

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Speaker 4: It's got to be an on my case, like Chris

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Speaker 4: wanted me out of there. Well, that's when two detectives

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Speaker 4: of pot Words agreed that they takes the heat off me.

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Speaker 4: They picked up up and the lawyer followed him and

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Speaker 4: went to pot work to run the polygraph. That time.

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Speaker 4: This is now well after, and that's the day he

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Speaker 4: lets her lawyer followed him right behind him all the

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Speaker 4: way the name censored.

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Speaker 1: There is that politician seemingly running things within Weatherford and

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Speaker 1: so we have this supposed cover up going all the

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Speaker 1: way up the chain. Then Hoolhertz tells this story which

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Speaker 1: is just mind boggling but all so revealing, showing the

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Speaker 1: links to which some went to make sure this case

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Speaker 1: never went anywhere.

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Speaker 4: One day, two Texas rangers showed up and they said,

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Speaker 4: we're missing some evidence, and I said what is it?

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Speaker 4: And said, suppose that you took to the property room

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Speaker 4: to be uh checked out by you know, they're property people.

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Speaker 4: And I said, oh, I remember, I said, and I

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Speaker 4: took it in let him side for it. They said, yeah,

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Speaker 4: the state can't find it. I said, state can't find it.

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Speaker 4: They can't even find where they signed for it. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: but I bet you Weatherbord's got where they signed for it.

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Speaker 4: They said they did, but that person is signed for

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Speaker 4: it supposed to don't work for the state. I said,

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Speaker 4: oh my god, what kind of mess is it?

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, previously on paper.

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Speaker 6: Ghosts and he had just forty two years later and

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Speaker 6: nothing still.

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Speaker 4: But I'm going to say that that's what it was,

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Speaker 4: and to me, that's what it was.

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Speaker 6: Sure sign and they all covered it up.

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Speaker 7: There were a couple of you know, young African American

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Speaker 7: boys that were killed and murdered for no reason.

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Speaker 2: There was just so many, so many things, and so.

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Speaker 6: Many that were not even written about that we know

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Speaker 6: about that we're missing.

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Speaker 2: I just hope that they can stop.

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Speaker 8: So we went in the house and she was looking

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Speaker 8: for him and I was just kind of sitting there

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Speaker 8: and that's when I saw. I didn't know who he

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Speaker 8: was when I saw him, but it was then all

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Speaker 8: of a sudden I heard him say, we killed those kids.

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Speaker 1: My name is em William Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist

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Speaker 1: and the New York Times bestselling author of dozens of

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Speaker 1: true crime books. This is season five of for Ghosts

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Speaker 1: the Texas Team Murders. So what is in the autopsy

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Speaker 1: report Troy Nichelis received on his front doorstep during the

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Speaker 1: fall of twenty twenty four which could have been so

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Speaker 1: important that the person leaving the report wanted that information

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Speaker 1: to be either known by the family or shared publicly.

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Speaker 1: And why now four decades later, here is mel Mitchell.

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Speaker 1: Once again.

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Speaker 3: We've had a lot of people that we had talked to,

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Speaker 3: you know about Hey, where were they shot?

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Speaker 2: What do you remember?

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Speaker 3: And we have been told that, you know, Vincent had

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Speaker 3: been shot in the right temple because his left eye

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Speaker 3: was kind of hanging out, and Shelley had been shot

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Speaker 3: once in the back of the head, like I guess,

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Speaker 3: kind of behind the ear.

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Speaker 2: Well, come to find out she was shot twice in

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Speaker 2: the head.

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Speaker 1: That autopsy report isn't clear about a lot of things,

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Speaker 1: and I would go so far as to say it

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Speaker 1: was purposely constructed to be unclear. On the front page,

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Speaker 1: the medical examiner states that one projectile was recovered from

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Speaker 1: the right side of the head, and one projectile was

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Speaker 1: recovered from the left side of the head of interest.

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Speaker 1: The external examination section of the report has a note

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Speaker 1: indicating that quote lividity conforms to the position of the

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Speaker 1: deceased having been seated slightly plumped over attached car door.

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Speaker 1: This is directly associated with what the pathologist was told

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Speaker 1: by law enforcement, or there is no other way he

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Speaker 1: could have known. With the amount of certainty he maintained

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Speaker 1: in the report, Shelley had no defensive wounds, the report claims.

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Speaker 1: Then it specifies that Shelley had a single gunshot wound

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Speaker 1: localized to the left side of her face, very close

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Speaker 1: to her ear. The second wound was found three inches

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Speaker 1: below the base of the same ear. If you are

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Speaker 1: looking at Shelley from a left profile view, one wound

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Speaker 1: was just to the side of the ear and the

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Speaker 1: other to the back of the ear. Those are the

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Speaker 1: type of wounds generally associated with an execution, like a

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Speaker 1: mob related hit, designed specifically to send a message.

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Speaker 3: When we got the autopsy report, there's a lot more

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Speaker 3: questions and that than answers, because we know that she

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Speaker 3: has scratch marks all over her We know that she

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Speaker 3: had scratches, I mean, like on her forehead and like

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Speaker 3: almost like she'd been drug through the briers. Like online,

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Speaker 3: the whole right cyber body was torn up. Going to

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Speaker 3: the funeral. You could see the scratches, I mean, and

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Speaker 3: it's seen, you know, some moment. Actually I had seen her

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Speaker 3: oppositely prior to you know, being dressed, you know, for

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Speaker 3: the funeral. I mean, just seeing all these crash marks.

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Speaker 3: Because in the auto's report it shows none of that,

382
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Speaker 3: nothing at all. It doesn't show there is any I mean,

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Speaker 3: any wounds at all of asides the two bullepoint winds.

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Speaker 2: That's it.

385
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Speaker 3: So that's already a huge question for me as someone

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Speaker 3: who's an emmy, Why are you not documenting all the

387
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Speaker 3: exterior injuries because you haven't documented any.

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Speaker 1: By the end of what is one of the shorter

389
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Speaker 1: autopsy reports I've ever come across, the pathologist says he

390
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Speaker 1: took blood in urine samples, tissue sections, fingernail cuttings, plucked

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Speaker 1: hair from Shelley's scalp, to cardiac blood, and very important,

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Speaker 1: a rape kit. There is zero mention of any external injury.

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Speaker 1: Like Elwood Hulhertz describes throughout this podcast, The pathologist who

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Speaker 1: conducted Shelley's autopsy was doctor nzamb Pirwani, a name steeped

395
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Speaker 1: in controversy.

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Speaker 3: Well, I don't know if you ever had a chance

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Speaker 3: to read about the Emmy, Like I sent just some

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Speaker 3: of the documents a while back. Did you ever read

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Speaker 3: about the emmy in his background?

400
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's a very sketchy situation.

401
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 4: Yeah.

402
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Speaker 3: And at that time period, he had just gotten a

403
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Speaker 3: contract a couple of months prior to these murders to

404
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Speaker 3: do Parker County. I think they were paying him like

405
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Speaker 3: five hundred dollars in autopsy, which obviously back there was

406
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Speaker 3: a lot of money, but his lab was not like

407
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Speaker 3: a massive, you know, medical examer's lab like you have now.

408
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Speaker 3: Like he had been asking for donations and all that

409
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Speaker 3: kind of stuff, and so he built this like half

410
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 3: million dollar lab that opened up I think October November

411
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Speaker 3: of that same year to where he had a better facility.

412
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Speaker 3: So I don't know what all he was lacking at

413
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Speaker 3: the time of their murders, because typically a lot of

414
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Speaker 3: the bigger named, you know, autopsies would be sent to Dallas.

415
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 3: So if you had if you really needed a lot

416
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Speaker 3: of in depth stuff, I mean, better forensics, you'd be

417
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Speaker 3: going to Dallas because this guy was like an up

418
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 3: and coming metal examer, Like he wasn't just some guy

419
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Speaker 3: that's been, you know, around for ten twenty years. I mean,

420
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Speaker 3: he'd just started up as practice.

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Speaker 1: Wouldn't two teenagers shot to death in a car be

422
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Speaker 1: a big case that you'd want to send to Dallas.

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Speaker 3: I would think, So that'd be the first place I

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Speaker 3: sent him to his Dallas because Dallas wanted took on

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Speaker 3: all the big stuff back then. So instead you're saying

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Speaker 3: to a new guy who's new here and has long

427
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Speaker 3: been practicing for like maybe a year or two, and

428
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:35,160
Speaker 3: you just get, you know, a contract at the county.

429
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Speaker 3: I'm like, well, why would you say it to this

430
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Speaker 3: guy who doesn't have it's like a fully functional lab

431
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:42,640
Speaker 3: like you would Dallas, And.

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Speaker 1: Who would be in charge of all of that?

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Speaker 2: That would be the justice of the piece.

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Speaker 3: Glenn Dimsmore was the one that was making most of

435
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Speaker 3: those decisions at the time.

436
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Speaker 1: From my understanding, Doctor Pierwani, and it would have been

437
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 1: a stretch calling him a doctor at the time had

438
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 1: a career mired in lies and incompetence, beginning in the

439
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:14,160
Speaker 1: years before the kid's murders, and it's important to note.

440
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 1: According to then district Attorney Max Smith, the Monte Carlo

441
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,360
Speaker 1: was sent to doctor Pierwani as well, and Max Smith

442
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 1: publicly stated that Pierwani conducted the forensic examination of that vehicle.

443
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:35,440
Speaker 1: Pierjani became the deputy medical Examiner in nineteen seventy six,

444
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:40,159
Speaker 1: yet his medical license did not become effective until nineteen

445
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:46,399
Speaker 1: seventy eight, so for two years he conducted autopsies without

446
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 1: a medical license, which is a felony. He also obtained

447
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 1: his green card he immigrated from Pakistan after lying about

448
00:26:56,320 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 1: the terms of his student visa. In the years after

449
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 1: he conducted the autopsies of Shelley and Vincent, Pierjuani was

450
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:08,639
Speaker 1: found to have given false testimony in a death penalty case,

451
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 1: resulting in the defendant being sentenced to death, and an

452
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: audit of his office found fifty nine errors in twenty

453
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 1: seven cases. Fifty nine errors twenty seven cases. Perjuani's comedical

454
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,919
Speaker 1: examiner was later fired. This is not the guy you

455
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,640
Speaker 1: want to trust with two bodies in a double homicide.

456
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,880
Speaker 1: With the public pressure of the case at the highest

457
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 1: level possible, I also couldn't wrap my mind around why

458
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,199
Speaker 1: a medical examiner would be the one to conduct the

459
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 1: forensic search of a vehicle in a double murder case,

460
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 1: or why you would even send two bodies in a

461
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 1: double homicide to a medical examiner who was clearly unreliable

462
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:01,400
Speaker 1: and did not do a thorough job up. But when

463
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:06,120
Speaker 1: I applied more pressure, that supposed fact gave way.

464
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 3: That was a crazy thing too, is that there was

465
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 3: taking the car and the bodies to Emmy's office. Well

466
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 3: the Emmy's office. First of all, it's not forensics for

467
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 3: a car. Secondly, there's no word to even park a

468
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 3: car to even do forensics on it, so I knew

469
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 3: it wasn't Emmy's office.

470
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 1: Mel discovered that Max Smith was wrong. The car was

471
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 1: not sent to doctor Pierwani, which still did not make

472
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 1: matters any better.

473
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 3: I'd been told it went to fort Worth, and fort

474
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 3: Worth is the one who had done the processing on it.

475
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 3: And then when I talked to Raymond Pritcher, he had

476
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 3: said it was actually the Terrant County Sheriff's Department that

477
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 3: had the vehicle and was doing the forensics on the car,

478
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 3: and he had told us that it was nothing was

479
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 3: really done like I was supposed to be because I

480
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 3: asked him, I was like, well, were their fingerprints taken?

481
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 2: And he's like, I don't think so.

482
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 3: Because I'd asked the family, the ones that actually have

483
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 3: the car, I'm like, do you remember seeing any of

484
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 3: the black powders, like, you know, back then they we've

485
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 3: had the black fingerprint powder everywhere.

486
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 2: He's like, no, I don't remember seeing any of that

487
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:07,479
Speaker 2: in the vehicle or outside of the vehicle.

488
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 3: And so talking to Raymond, he said he didn't really

489
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 3: remember them doing fingerprints all that either. He did remember

490
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 3: there was a bootprint in the back seat and they

491
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 3: had like kind of pointed towed cowboy boots with like

492
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 3: some zigzag design on the footprint. I asked him, I

493
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 3: was like, well, I understood that there was economist Shelle

494
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 3: cases in the car.

495
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 2: And he's like yeah, He's like this kind of went missing.

496
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 1: Let me break that down simply because it sounds so

497
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 1: confusing and truly unbelievable. Raymond Pritchard, who took over the

498
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 1: case many years later and eventually became deputy chief of

499
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 1: the Weatherford Police Department, told mel Mitchell no search for

500
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 1: fingerprints was ever conducted on the vehicle and we know

501
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 1: from Raven t Jerina, Vincent's uncle that when he saw

502
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 1: the vehicle that morning and after it was returned to

503
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 1: the family, there was a used condom inside the car.

504
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 1: So I think it's safe to say that no forensic

505
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 1: examination of the vehicle, or at least a competent examination,

506
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 1: was ever done, and surely that used condom, which could

507
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 1: contain the answer to the case, was never tested.

508
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 3: And so he's like, oh, well, it was a brand

509
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 3: new person, like it as a newbie that basically a

510
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 3: got assigned to do in the friensis on his car,

511
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 3: like he'd never done fansis on his car ever before.

512
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 1: Even if it was your first minute on the job,

513
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 1: it would be pretty damn hard to miss a used

514
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 1: condom sitting on the backseat of a vehicle you are

515
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 1: calling through for evidence in a murder investigation.

516
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 3: And so when I'm talking to Raymond, I'm trying to

517
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 3: understand this, Like, so you're telling me that you have

518
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 3: a double homicide and it's target sent over to Terrence

519
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 3: County Shaff's office, and some guy who's never done forensis

520
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 3: on a car ever before is the one that gets

521
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 3: assigned to doing the forensics on his car. He's like, well, yeah,

522
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 3: that's why that's such poor that's such a poor job

523
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 3: was done on it.

524
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 1: To say the least. I was baffled by the incompetence

525
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 1: within all of this. So, Mel, I'm not understanding how

526
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: the evidence got put back in the car and given

527
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 1: back to the family. Is that what somebody wanted done?

528
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 1: I don't.

529
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 2: I'm not, I think so.

530
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 3: They allegedly don't have the evidence, so I don't know

531
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 3: if it was someone who And I'm not sure I've

532
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 3: been trying to figure out for the family if they

533
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 3: actually went to go pick up the car or if

534
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 3: it was brought back. But my understanding the car was

535
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 3: actually kept after the forensics was done on it. It

536
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 3: was actually kept in a facility for all the other

537
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 3: toad you know, towed vehicles, like a towing yard, and

538
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 3: so it was like back in his back corner, and

539
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 3: it wasn't really shielded from the you know, from the elements,

540
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 3: like kind of stuck in a corner somewhere. And so

541
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 3: Vincent Senior and maybe his brother Raymond, you know, had

542
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 3: got out there and picked up the car and then

543
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 3: came back. But another family member had just told us

544
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 3: maybe Vincent Senior was not happy with maybe looking at

545
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 3: the car and realizing, Okay, I don't feel like this

546
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 3: has been inspected like it should.

547
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 2: And so at some point time he drew it back.

548
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 3: Up to whether for a PDE to have them look

549
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 3: over it, like, it doesn't look like this car's in

550
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 3: a process.

551
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 1: Can you imagine the car where two teenage murder victims

552
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 1: were allegedly found not being processed. If I hadn't gotten

553
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 1: involved in this case, I'd have to say, it's impossible.

554
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 1: Who the hell is running this investigation?

555
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 2: Exactly? That's that's what I'm saying.

556
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 3: And so when I was talking to Raymond, he I

557
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 3: was a lead on this, and Raymond reopened this case

558
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 3: in two thousand and three with another investigator Chris Crawford,

559
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 3: and Raymon.

560
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 2: At that point in time, I think was like, Deputy, please, chief.

561
00:32:59,720 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 6: You know.

562
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 2: So when I'm talking to Raymond Pritchett.

563
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 3: About this, it's like, well, you don't have a scene

564
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 3: properly taped off from all the witnesses we've talked to,

565
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 3: so you've basically got I mean, it's like the Grand

566
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 3: Prix walking through here. There's footprints everywhere, there's car tracks, everywhere.

567
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,719
Speaker 3: Nothing was properly you know, purtened off from you know,

568
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 3: just anybody walking through it. You got press out there.

569
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 3: You've got Pressed the same night that's actually taking video

570
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 3: of people walking around where the bloodstains are on the ground.

571
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 2: And then you have this car that people are touching.

572
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 3: They're touching the car like as it's like getting loaded

573
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 3: up onto the tow truck.

574
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 2: So now you've like.

575
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 3: Really contaminated the scene with all these people's footprints and

576
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 3: touching the vehicle. So, I mean, who knows how many

577
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 3: fingerprints maybe on the outside of the car, and then

578
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 3: it's sent over to Fort Worth to be processed, which

579
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 3: I don't think there are ever any fingerprints taken.

580
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 2: And so Raymond said that.

581
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 3: There was a paper I guess, like the old school

582
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 3: kind of paper you can kind of own I guess

583
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 3: the tracing sheets or whatever you can trace the footprints,

584
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 3: and so like they had a trice footprint made.

585
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 2: I've had one bootprint, and.

586
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 3: He said somehow that was lost in the evidence later on,

587
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 3: but they had a photo of it left, like they

588
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 3: still had a photo still somewhere in the evidence. But

589
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 3: there's so much evidence as lost in this So I

590
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 3: don't know who had the car. He's telling me it's

591
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 3: Terry County, Shaff's apartment. I have others to tell me

592
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 3: it's for or f PD, But whoever had the car,

593
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 3: I don't know. If there's a phone call that was

594
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 3: made and said, hey, make sure this doesn't find its way.

595
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:26,399
Speaker 2: Back to PD.

596
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 1: I'm almost certain I've never heard anything this incompetent within

597
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 1: a murder investigation throughout my twenty five year career of

598
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 1: investigative journalism. It's either the most inept investigation ever or

599
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 1: certain parties are playing dumb, hoping to deflect the obvious

600
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 1: and muck up the investigation on purpose.

601
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 3: Because I mean, honestly, I don't know how else it

602
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 3: would have happened, because you're not going to have it

603
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:03,799
Speaker 3: bagged and tagged, and then somehow it ends up right

604
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 3: back in the car for the family to find, knowing

605
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 3: the family is more than likely not going to hang

606
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:10,799
Speaker 3: on to it thinking okay, well it's obviously left in

607
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 3: here for a reason.

608
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 1: More paper ghosts After a quick break, Please check out

609
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,800
Speaker 1: my weekly podcast, Crossing the Line with m William Phelps,

610
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 1: where I delve into a new missing person and cold

611
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 1: case murder each week wherever you get your favorite shows.

612
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 3: We had set up a meeting and we try to

613
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 3: keep as confidential as possible with the witnesses to come

614
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,280
Speaker 3: forward on this podcast.

615
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 1: At one point, Mel Mitchell and Justice for Vincent and

616
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:55,800
Speaker 1: Shelley Facebook page administrator Laurie Kates set up a virtual

617
00:35:55,880 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 1: meeting with about ten sources. These potential sources wanted to

618
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:06,360
Speaker 1: feel me out, understand what I was doing, get a

619
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:10,280
Speaker 1: feel for this yankee and my angle. They also wanted

620
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 1: to meet one another. There is strength and unity and

621
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 1: each of them would make the other feel safer about

622
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 1: stepping forward. The ladies had worked hard at getting everyone together.

623
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,319
Speaker 1: On the morning of the meeting, something happened, which has

624
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 1: become an all too common occurrence when people begin asking

625
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 1: questions about Vincent and Shelley's murders.

626
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 3: Some of them were really scared, and we wanted them

627
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,839
Speaker 3: to kind of meet each other and know that they're one,

628
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 3: not alone two. You know, they could probably rely on

629
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 3: each other. They felt like, you know, possibly they were

630
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,319
Speaker 3: being followed or you know, anybody had called them and

631
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 3: made them feel like uncomfortable or possibly harassed, So kind

632
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,800
Speaker 3: of quitting them their own little small group of knowing, hey,

633
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 3: we are witness to certain aspects of this case, and

634
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 3: you know that we're not alone.

635
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 2: We've got a kind of a mini support group.

636
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 1: Neither Melth nor Lorie told them where the meeting would

637
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 1: take place until the last possible moment so as to

638
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 1: keep it as confidential as possible.

639
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 3: So we had set up a day in time, but

640
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,840
Speaker 3: we were calling people that morning to tell them the location.

641
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 2: And it's a little bit further outside the city.

642
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 3: And that morning I was driving out there a little

643
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 3: bit earlier, and there was a SUV that was in

644
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 3: the left lane because it's only two lanes and I

645
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 3: was in the right lane. SUV's in the left lane,

646
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 3: And to be honest, I didn't even really notice them

647
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 3: because it's the traffic's ridiculous now. So I took the exit.

648
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 3: This suv cut off the driver behind me to get

649
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 3: over on the exit, and you know, of course, all

650
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 3: I'm thinking is, you know, hey, some idiot just was

651
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 3: about to miss her exit, and uh, you know, we

652
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 3: all know how drivers are these days, so I didn't

653
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 3: think much of it. And then we're going down this,

654
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:06,479
Speaker 3: you know, one new road that they built out here,

655
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 3: and you know, person's kind of behind me, not anything

656
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:14,479
Speaker 3: too too far out. And we get to a turn

657
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 3: lane where I had to turn left into where this

658
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 3: individual lives, and that person pulled in behind me. So

659
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:22,839
Speaker 3: I got a pretty decent look at the person. It

660
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 3: was a female. So we take a left and she's

661
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 3: kind of like really wrong on my rear to where

662
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:30,839
Speaker 3: I couldn't get a license plate like I wanted to.

663
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:32,880
Speaker 3: She's I mean, close enough where I can't get a

664
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 3: visual of it, and I don't know. It's just one

665
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 3: of those gut instinct things where I'm thinking, okay, so

666
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 3: maybe this person does live the neighborhood. They just want

667
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:43,719
Speaker 3: to get around me. I'll just kind of slow down,

668
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 3: see they'll pass me. Well, of course that didn't happen.

669
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 3: So I was like, well, let me just test my theory.

670
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:49,959
Speaker 3: I'm gonna take another left up here onto an even

671
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 3: more of a rural road. And so when I did,

672
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 3: that person follow me again, and I guess that's when

673
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,240
Speaker 3: she realized I was picking up on what she is doing.

674
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 3: So by the time I'm wanting to slow down because

675
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 3: I was going to stop and just you know, get

676
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:08,319
Speaker 3: out and really confront the person. And by the time

677
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 3: I started slowing down. That person already pretty much slammed

678
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,919
Speaker 3: on their brakes and turn around is already heading out

679
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:16,879
Speaker 3: to the you know, to the highway again. So this

680
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 3: person exited the neighborhood the same way we came in,

681
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,319
Speaker 3: but I went a different route and kind of loop

682
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:25,360
Speaker 3: back around the neighborhood. So when I came out, this

683
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,319
Speaker 3: individual was coming out on the other side of the neighborhoods.

684
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,360
Speaker 3: I could see she was leaving pretty pretty quickly.

685
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 1: Keep in mind, mel carries several loaded weapons on her

686
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:46,800
Speaker 1: at all times and has some loaded weapons bedside as well,

687
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 1: which is something I myself have embraced recently after getting

688
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 1: death threats deemed credible by my local police department during

689
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 1: the fall of twenty twenty four, after launching a narrative

690
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 1: podcast about the Karen Reid case in Boston, the woman

691
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 1: accused and later acquitted of murdering her Boston Police officer

692
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 1: boyfriend John O'Keefe. This is the world in which we

693
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 1: now live. Who do you think that could be?

694
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 3: I think it's someone that could have possibly been one

695
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 3: of the investors at a point in time on this case.

696
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 3: But like I said, I couldn't get a license plate

697
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 3: so I don't want to confirm, yes, this is who

698
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 3: it was, but given the appearance, that's who it appeared

699
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 3: to be. But why maybe just to see what we know?

700
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 3: I mean, there's a possibility that some of these witnesses

701
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 3: may have not told him everything, or maybe some of

702
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 3: his witnesses may not have ever come forward, and there's

703
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 3: just new people that they would probably love to know about.

704
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 1: Mel Mitchell has this contagious, welcoming, youthful aura about her.

705
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:59,839
Speaker 1: One of the most determined investigators I have ever had

706
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 1: the honor of working with her, eye and ear for

707
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 1: detail unparalleled. Her courage to dig, even if digging is

708
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 1: going to rattle cages and stir up the past some

709
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 1: would rather not see resurface. She forges on even when

710
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 1: what she discovers might upset victims' families. Because look, I

711
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:26,280
Speaker 1: had to ask, what if all this talk of corruption

712
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 1: and cops being involved major political people as well, had

713
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,839
Speaker 1: all been some sort of a ruse, a deflection engineered

714
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:38,400
Speaker 1: by the real killer or killers to keep law enforcement

715
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 1: off their scent. A lot of this talk about corruption

716
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 1: went from the town square to social media and soon

717
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 1: took off like a Texas marin heat gaining a life

718
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 1: of its own, So you'd have to wonder if the

719
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 1: murderers were working this angle.

720
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 3: So Shelley has a hope chest that her mom have

721
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 3: obviously kept over the years, and so in his hope chest,

722
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,880
Speaker 3: amongst other documents, there was this one newspaper clipping that

723
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 3: she had circled these two individuals.

724
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:12,799
Speaker 1: Mel gives me the names, and they are not the

725
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 1: two names I have been censoring throughout. These are two

726
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:20,719
Speaker 1: different young men. What would be the significance do you

727
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:25,799
Speaker 1: think that Shelley had this picture and had circled the

728
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 1: faces of these two males?

729
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 4: Now?

730
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 3: I know she went to high school with both of them,

731
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:32,840
Speaker 3: I mean, and whether for it wasn't a huge city

732
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 3: or town, I mean much less a very big high

733
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:37,479
Speaker 3: school either, So I mean what the significance of it

734
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 3: would be? I don't know as far as how she

735
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:41,759
Speaker 3: would have known him outside the FFA.

736
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:46,359
Speaker 1: Another line of inquiry once Mel began looking into these

737
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:50,439
Speaker 1: new names also came up and could make sense when

738
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:54,280
Speaker 1: compared to what looks to be the execution style manner

739
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 1: of murder in this case. Tell me about Vincent's ex

740
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:01,759
Speaker 1: girlfriend perhaps being a target.

741
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:05,360
Speaker 3: She said that, for whatever reason, when she was interviewed

742
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:07,359
Speaker 3: by the police, that they had made a statement that

743
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 3: she may have been the ind attended target instead of

744
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 3: Shelley for whatever reason. She hasn't really elaborated much on that.

745
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 3: She had said also that they had never found the

746
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 3: car keys to Vincent's car that night, But she also

747
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,360
Speaker 3: stated that they had known, or she had known, that

748
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 3: they had staged the kids after they were shot to

749
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 3: looked like they were making out. That's what she had

750
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 3: told us, and that she had, through whoever she had

751
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:35,400
Speaker 3: talked to, believes that Shelley was killed outside of the

752
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:40,319
Speaker 3: car and that Vincent was shot inside and basically left

753
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 3: to bleed out.

754
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:41,919
Speaker 2: She said.

755
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 3: The other understandings she had whoever she's talking to, is

756
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 3: that the police were covering up due to one of

757
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:52,279
Speaker 3: their own individuals possibly having been involved in it.

758
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:58,800
Speaker 1: And so here we are again, we've come full circle,

759
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:06,880
Speaker 1: directly back to that law enforcement angle. So that was

760
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:09,279
Speaker 1: her whole basis for this information was.

761
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 3: That she may have known more than she needed to know.

762
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:14,279
Speaker 3: And so she said that she had gotten a death

763
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 3: threat one day she was at the movies and just

764
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:19,280
Speaker 3: gotten a brand new car, and I guess that morning

765
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:21,840
Speaker 3: actually and so she got into movies a couple of friends,

766
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:24,359
Speaker 3: and when she came out there was a note on

767
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 3: her window that was a death threat, and so she

768
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 3: handed it over to police to say, hey, can you

769
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 3: please look into this? And she said that was probably

770
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 3: around late January to early February nineteen eighty four.

771
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 1: Mel went on to say a lot of this the

772
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:44,840
Speaker 1: idea of high school kids involved death threats, Shelley circling

773
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 1: the faces of two individuals pictures for some reason all

774
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 1: centered around the meth trade and how the drug was

775
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 1: then marketed in school as a quick, fixed weight loss

776
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:03,360
Speaker 1: drug at the time. So the theory is some kids

777
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:08,399
Speaker 1: got in too deep, knew too much, had seemed too much,

778
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:42,759
Speaker 1: and had to be taken out. When I mentioned near

779
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 1: the top of the episode, there were a lot of

780
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:49,760
Speaker 1: strange deaths and accidents around the time of the murders,

781
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 1: many of which seemed to be connected back to Shelley

782
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 1: and Vincent, much in the same way Vincent's former girlfriend

783
00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 1: might fit in. I was not being overly dramatic or hyperbolic.

784
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:08,239
Speaker 3: A couple of months after Vincent was killed, one of

785
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 3: his really good friends, Billy Taylor, had died in a

786
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:14,880
Speaker 3: one man car accident. I believe his brother was in

787
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 3: the vehicle with him, but he dies. He's fifteen, He's

788
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 3: like one day away from his sixteenth birthday, so it's

789
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:25,360
Speaker 3: a really sad deal. He passes away. And then you

790
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 3: have the following summer. You've got Shelley's stepbrother who had

791
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:33,359
Speaker 3: the same last name as her. They had become really

792
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 3: close before she passed away, and him and someboddies were

793
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 3: about to go to Fort Worth. They picked up the

794
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 3: Bluebells I guess, kind of the cheerleading team for Weatherford,

795
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 3: the usual Friday night stuff for teenagers. The way I

796
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 3: understood is there's two other people that got in the

797
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 3: car instead. It is thirty minutes to an hour later,

798
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 3: those kids are in an accident right off the highway,

799
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 3: went flying off the highway over an embankment and basically

800
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 3: into a ditch, and the car exploded, killing four of

801
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:03,399
Speaker 3: them on impact. Two of them were severely burned. One

802
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 3: of they're bosent down to a burn unit. I believe

803
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 3: in Galveston. One of them passed away and the other

804
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 3: one there's one survivor from that. But so that was

805
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 3: five classmates right there that passed away in that accident.

806
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 1: The idea that Shelley and Vincent saw something they should

807
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 1: not have seen and it was ordered that they needed

808
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 1: to unsee it is a plausible explanation, especially when placed

809
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:38,319
Speaker 1: into the context of killing a couple of kids to

810
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 1: protect a multi million dollar operation like the meth trade.

811
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:47,760
Speaker 1: For some involved in that world, murder becomes just another

812
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 1: part of doing business. And what shocks me perhaps most

813
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:55,200
Speaker 1: is I begin to get deep into the weeds here

814
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 1: is just how many people are willing and courageous enough

815
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:03,040
Speaker 1: to want to talk about that part of this story

816
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:07,320
Speaker 1: at all, seeing how many people have died or been murdered,

817
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:11,880
Speaker 1: And in that sense, I had to think the murderer

818
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 1: could be standing right in front of us the entire time,

819
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:22,719
Speaker 1: and we might not even know it. Alan Carter, who

820
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:26,719
Speaker 1: was entangled in the meth world at one time, had

821
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:31,400
Speaker 1: been hauled in and questioned about Shelley and Vincent's murders.

822
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 1: You've heard from Alan in previous episodes. When did they

823
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 1: polygraph you Allan?

824
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:40,400
Speaker 3: Uh?

825
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 6: They were so serious about it that they handcuffed me

826
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 6: and took me to go take it. And when I

827
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:50,319
Speaker 6: got through it, that polygraph guy said he had nothing

828
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 6: to do with it, and I said, I take his

829
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 6: fucking handcuff of me, and he goes, calm down.

830
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:57,080
Speaker 1: I'm calm down, my ash.

831
00:48:57,160 --> 00:48:58,960
Speaker 6: You handcuffed me and drove me all way over here

832
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:01,360
Speaker 6: and made me take this student and I'm pasted with

833
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 6: a fine code and gets you hankos of me and

834
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:05,920
Speaker 6: he took them off of me and then be to

835
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:06,839
Speaker 6: Collie right at home.

836
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:10,360
Speaker 1: So Alan, it's important to say, if we are to

837
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 1: take a lie detector test at face value, is a

838
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:19,399
Speaker 1: truth teller? Do you remember any of the questions they

839
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:20,919
Speaker 1: had for you on the polygraph?

840
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:25,680
Speaker 6: Do you know do you hang out with where were

841
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:28,400
Speaker 6: you on the night of this? What were you doing?

842
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:30,720
Speaker 4: All kinds of questions.

843
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:35,920
Speaker 1: Whenever we talk suspects in this case, those two names

844
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 1: I have been censoring throughout come up again and again

845
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:46,800
Speaker 1: and again, and now here you have Weatherford investigators asking

846
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 1: Allan about those very names. So it is a fact

847
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:56,440
Speaker 1: that Weatherford was looking at these two individuals as suspects

848
00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 1: very early on into its investigation, and from what Allan

849
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 1: tells me, it seemed they were at least at one

850
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 1: time hyper focused on one of them in particular. So

851
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:12,920
Speaker 1: this thing was really focused on.

852
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,719
Speaker 6: It seems well, if somebody told him that me and

853
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 6: him were out together, well then he failed his polygraph.

854
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:24,480
Speaker 6: That's why when they rapped to me, I said, no,

855
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:27,640
Speaker 6: he looked like when they asked me that on the polygraph,

856
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:31,239
Speaker 6: I said that I passed. They couldn't be And they

857
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:32,440
Speaker 6: said because they said he was.

858
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:34,280
Speaker 4: In college going to Trooper school.

859
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:36,319
Speaker 6: You know how it work back then? You know, you

860
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 6: see them guys, they all got the crew cook, they're tall,

861
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 6: they all wear can can count with.

862
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 3: That same god.

863
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:44,719
Speaker 6: And they wasn't saying flash and all that they were

864
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 6: white guys.

865
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 1: What could be the motive here to kill Vincent Shelley

866
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 1: like that? What do you think if it was, what

867
00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:58,280
Speaker 1: would be the motive?

868
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 6: They seen something they weren't sposed to on his heal.

869
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 6: I've seen a hand one something they.

870
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 5: Were supposed to see.

871
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 1: I needed to make a play at contacting these guys,

872
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:15,839
Speaker 1: ask them to come on the podcast and discuss what

873
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:19,719
Speaker 1: people have been saying for what over forty years? Now

874
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 1: give them their chance to speak for themselves. Remember, these

875
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:31,480
Speaker 1: guys are innocent of these crimes until proven guilty. They

876
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:35,279
Speaker 1: have never been charged. I need you to understand that

877
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:39,840
Speaker 1: one very important fact They have become the focus of

878
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 1: this case today only by the people in town accusing

879
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:48,279
Speaker 1: them and in several instances doxing them by putting their

880
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 1: pictures and names out there alongside information we have no

881
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:58,399
Speaker 1: way of verifying. Not to mention, I have confirmed that

882
00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 1: law enforcement looked deep into these men throughout the early

883
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:06,520
Speaker 1: part of its investigation, and for whatever reason, have not

884
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:12,480
Speaker 1: pursued them since. Was all of this a witch hunt,

885
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:16,480
Speaker 1: a carefully orchestrated design to put the onus of the

886
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:22,360
Speaker 1: murders on two innocent people? After all, nobody has offered

887
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:28,360
Speaker 1: any concrete forensic proof or a credible eyewitness statement placing

888
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:33,799
Speaker 1: either of them at the scene of the murders. I

889
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 1: needed to understand their opinions of it all, not badger them,

890
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:41,840
Speaker 1: call them out on anything, or accused them of murdering

891
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:46,919
Speaker 1: two teenagers. Just talk and listen to what they had

892
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:50,760
Speaker 1: to say. So I called welcome too.

893
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:54,160
Speaker 6: Now it's not available, please be good message after the.

894
00:52:54,200 --> 00:53:03,600
Speaker 1: Tone, Hey, this is Phelps coming up in the next

895
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:06,160
Speaker 1: episode of paper Ghosts.

896
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:08,960
Speaker 5: I know that Parker County was pretty young back. What

897
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:13,160
Speaker 5: we called it crank Okay, all we ever heard was.

898
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:16,840
Speaker 6: That's kind of sort of how I found out about

899
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:17,799
Speaker 6: the men.

900
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:21,319
Speaker 5: Well, we're gonna say we called the crank. We heard that,

901
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:24,400
Speaker 5: you know, there might be some shady things going on

902
00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:28,120
Speaker 5: with to share it. He just always heard it that

903
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:31,839
Speaker 5: he was always kind of shaved or had shady up.

904
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 7: Because when I went and talked to Arnold in February

905
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:39,680
Speaker 7: of twenty twenty two, that's what Arnold had said. They

906
00:53:39,719 --> 00:53:43,239
Speaker 7: had five scenarios and they had just got back from

907
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:46,960
Speaker 7: New Mexico. Now they've worked it down before, but I've

908
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:49,640
Speaker 7: asked her and I don't think she would lie about that.

909
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:53,879
Speaker 9: He told me that this girl said she had seen

910
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:55,880
Speaker 9: the body shaking.

911
00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:56,840
Speaker 4: Actual they've been shot.

912
00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:01,120
Speaker 9: Now this guy's not alive, I can want to care.

913
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:04,920
Speaker 9: Said he wasn't just somebody's sold for me. He was

914
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 9: a friend of mine.

915
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:17,399
Speaker 1: Paper Ghost Season five is written and executive produced by

916
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:23,280
Speaker 1: me and William Phelps. Script consulting by iHeartMedia Executive producer

917
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:29,239
Speaker 1: Catherine Law, Production by Tok Boom Productions, Audio mastering and

918
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:34,080
Speaker 1: mixing by Brandon Dicker. The series theme number four four

919
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:38,080
Speaker 1: to two is written and performed by Thomas Phelps and

920
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:39,560
Speaker 1: Tom Mooney