1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class, A production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio, Hello and Happy Friday and Holly 3 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:17,639 Speaker 1: Fry and I'm Tracy v. Wilson. Oh, Tracy. We talked 4 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:24,920 Speaker 1: about the babies. We did the fury, Yeah, the fury 5 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 1: and the anger. We had to stop a couple of 6 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: times because I started crying. It makes me so angry. 7 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: I just cry like it's that frustration that I can't 8 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: fix anything. UM. I mentioned in the episode that I 9 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: wanted to talk about one of the families that we 10 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: couldn't quite fit into the episode because they weren't really 11 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: a contender and we couldn't talk about all seventeen that 12 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: made the claim towards it. Um. But they are the 13 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:50,879 Speaker 1: only black family that participated in this derby, and that 14 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: was the Carter family. And they had had eight children, 15 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: so they were close, but not really in the end group. Um. 16 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: They had twelve children in total, and Mr Harder had 17 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: told the press that if they won, he was going 18 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: to share the money not just with all the other 19 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 1: participants but with as many of Toronto's large families as 20 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: he could, which is so lovely. But they did not win, 21 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: of course, and he also kind of took advantage of 22 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 1: the opportunity. I don't know if advantage is the right word, 23 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: but he took the opportunity afforded by being interviewed by 24 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: reporters to talk about how hard it was to be 25 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: a black man looking for work. Even though he had 26 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: a lot of experience. He had worked in a number 27 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: of labor jobs and sometimes specialty labor jobs, but he still, 28 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:39,319 Speaker 1: particularly obviously in a depression period when a lot of 29 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:41,960 Speaker 1: people couldn't find work, he really could not find work. 30 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 1: And he gave this one quote that was really striking 31 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: to me, which I'm going to read. He said, no 32 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: matter what education, what capabilities, the average negro has, he 33 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 1: can't get work in Toronto. In the United States, he 34 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: is told he can come only so far in mixing 35 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 1: with white folk, but he can get a job working 36 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: with his own people. There is no conscious prejudice against us, 37 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: I admit, but I would rather be told don't come 38 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: in than be told come on in, but I have 39 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 1: nothing for you. And it was kind of like an 40 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: incredibly um succinct way to sum up a lot of 41 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: the problems that we're going on for black families at 42 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: the time. So I wanted to make sure we gave 43 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 1: them a shout out. The other thing is that Lily 44 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 1: Kenny breaks my heart. Breaks my heart. Um, it's so 45 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: weird to me that, like some of these articles you 46 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 1: read go on and on about what an incredible artist 47 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:37,919 Speaker 1: she is and how skilled she is, and they're like, yeah, 48 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 1: but she's kind of a bad mother. And it's like, Okay, 49 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 1: if you think she's amazing and has a skill that 50 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: is unique, why aren't you using your capabilities and your 51 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 1: connections to try to elevate this person's life when she 52 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:56,079 Speaker 1: obviously is struggling. Yeah. Yeah, the hissing noises I made 53 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: at my computer while reading this stuff, I was so angry. 54 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,519 Speaker 1: I was so angry. You have some feelings about Charlie Miller, 55 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: I know, yeah, I do. I just I feel real 56 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: judging for him because he had a lot of money. 57 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,119 Speaker 1: I do too. I'm not laughing at your judginess. It's 58 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: just it's so the whole thing is so absurd. Yeah, 59 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: Like he could have done something useful and philanthropic with 60 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:26,359 Speaker 1: his money after his death, and instead what he decided 61 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: to do is intentionally make problems. And I'm like, I 62 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: have no time for you, sir, Right, I mean, it's 63 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: interesting when you get into some of the scholarship about 64 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: the will, the ways that people interpret it and kind 65 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: of obviously put their own lens on it. There are 66 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: people that see his will completely differently, like I read, 67 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: and we didn't really get into the will itself because 68 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: I really wanted to talk about these families. Um. But 69 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: there was one analysis that I read was like, no, 70 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: Charlie Miller was trying to really challenge social morais of 71 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: the time and point out to people that like, there 72 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: were other ways of living than what they believed in, 73 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: like particularly in in trying to, you know, make people 74 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: who were teetotalers own and operate a brewery and make 75 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: people who didn't believe in horse racing. But then I'm like, 76 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:20,920 Speaker 1: I hear you, and I love that as an idea, 77 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 1: but like the the text does not support your assertion. No, no, 78 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 1: and just the um. Even if he had some kind 79 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 1: of positive motivation for the for the baby Derby, it 80 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: doesn't feel thought through at all. And it was happening 81 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: at the same time as a lot of eugenic stuff 82 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: and a lot of xenophobia and a lot of racism, 83 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 1: like all of that happening together and it. I'm like, 84 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:55,039 Speaker 1: you could have done something else with your money. Yeah, 85 00:04:55,040 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 1: there is so much weird poverty. Voyeur is a in 86 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: the coverage of it. Yeah, that is so I mean 87 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:07,039 Speaker 1: it's what was selling papers, which is also its own 88 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: horrifying fact. But it's so disturbing because it is so 89 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 1: much like there are rats all over this person's house 90 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,720 Speaker 1: and it's like, again, help them then, like clearly they 91 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: are not living in a sanitary or healthy situation with children, 92 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: and you know it, and now so does your readership, 93 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: and no one is trying to fix it. Yeah, and 94 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:31,479 Speaker 1: it's there's so much still today, Like there are still 95 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:35,679 Speaker 1: headlines today where poor people, especially poor people of color, 96 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 1: are uniquely judged for just trying to make ends meet. 97 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:47,359 Speaker 1: So like the you know, any parent but especially mothers 98 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: being arrested for being at a job interview at a 99 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 1: coffee shop while their child was playing at the park 100 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 1: across the street, like that kind of stuff. Uh, and 101 00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: I super hate it. And there's so much of that 102 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 1: that is evident in what we just talked about. Oh 103 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: my gosh, it's like pervasive. It's so pervasive. There is 104 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:11,799 Speaker 1: definitely like this sense in a lot of the articles 105 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: about it that is sort of like these people are 106 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:18,039 Speaker 1: stupid and or immoral, so they kind of deserve this 107 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 1: horrible life. And it's m yeah, hissing, hissing at my screen. Never, never, 108 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 1: My poor husband over the last several days it's been like, 109 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: what are you hissing about? Now, Like it's more about 110 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: the thing, and he's like, alright, alright, right, yeah, yeah, 111 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: Thank goodness. We had a noodle email to take the 112 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: edge off at the end of that one woof food 113 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: for thought. It's always frustrating to talk about stories that 114 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:53,599 Speaker 1: seems so similar to stories playing out today but also important. Yeah, 115 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: unlike the thing I said recently at the beginning of 116 00:06:57,200 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: an episode where I was like, I had not heard 117 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 1: of this before, and now I'm mad about it. I 118 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: had heard of this before, but as like a, oh, 119 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: it's so funny. It's a wacky piece of history. I 120 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 1: so I'm going to put it in the same bucket 121 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 1: of even though I had heard of it, I had 122 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: not heard the details of it before, and now I'm 123 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: mad about it. Yeah. Same. I mean, it was one 124 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: of those things that comes up whenever you're kind of 125 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: perusing lists of weird or nutty history that are pretty 126 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: light in tone, and it's like, no, these were humans 127 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: that were put in really, really jeopardizing scenarios because they 128 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: were so desperate to try to help themselves when they 129 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: had very little recourse to do so. And I didn't 130 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: I did not include the details of some of the 131 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 1: medical testimony because it is so upsetting and to think 132 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: about a mother sitting there while a court ask questions 133 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: of her doctors about details of the births of her 134 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: children that did not survive, and you know what exactly 135 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: played out and happened, and whether or not that should count, 136 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: Like I cannot imagine the pain that caused. Yeah. So 137 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 1: we talked about Lucy Parsons on the show this week, 138 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 1: someone I found intriguing just from the couple of sentences 139 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: in the Haymarket incident episode, because we talked about the fact, 140 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: at that point already had been pretty well established that 141 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 1: her mother had been enslaved, and she had been born 142 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: in Virginia and then moved to Waco. That part of it, uh, 143 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: and then that then she married a man who had 144 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: previously been a Confederate soldier. And I was like, there's 145 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: got to be some story there that it's the last 146 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 1: unpacked with that um and then we were talking about 147 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 1: Maggielena Walker. Some of those same themes had come up, 148 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: but in a way that we didn't have as much 149 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 1: documentation of the life involved. And I had kind of 150 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 1: gone down a little rabbit hole at that point. And 151 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 1: then there were other times that Lucy Parson's name just 152 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:10,959 Speaker 1: came up as a like a another example or in 153 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: a footnote or whatever, and I was like, Okay, I 154 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: gotta move her up to the top of the list. 155 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: I wasn't quite aware of how complicated her identity was 156 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 1: going to be when I did that, because I, you know, 157 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: I am a forty six year old white woman who 158 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: has not had to deal with the kinds of institutional 159 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:41,839 Speaker 1: racism and violence that she was having to deal with 160 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 1: for her whole life. And I am not in any 161 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: way judging any of her decisions, but I do wish 162 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: I knew what was going on in her mind with 163 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: some of the things that she did. Like her her 164 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 1: decision to have her son committed was really hard and 165 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 1: U and like I, we don't know, we don't know 166 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 1: her thinking behind that. It doesn't appear that she had 167 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 1: really contact with her family back in Waco after leaving, 168 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 1: and it's like, I know people who are estranged from 169 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 1: their families and they have found that lack of contact 170 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 1: to be a relief. Was that the case with her? 171 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 1: Was it not? Don't know? Um and and a lot 172 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:30,679 Speaker 1: of it is just not possible to know at this point. Yes, 173 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 1: she's so tricky. As I said while we were getting 174 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:37,199 Speaker 1: ready to record, she's simultaneously in some ways so inspiring 175 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 1: and others just like so infuriating and an upsetting because 176 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: it's like, Oh, I understand your ideology, but I don't 177 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 1: love the way you're expressing it. Sometimes. Who like, Hey, 178 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 1: everybody learned to make a bomb? I'm like, wow, hey 179 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: back it up? Yeah, well, and I do. I should 180 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,679 Speaker 1: have probably clarified in the episode that, like, she did 181 00:10:56,800 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 1: use a lot of very direct, violent rhetoric in her writing, 182 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 1: but it does not appear that she ever attempted to 183 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: plan any actual violence. So in her particular case, more 184 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 1: of a rhetorical tool and not an actual threat of 185 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:17,559 Speaker 1: harming people. Definitely not the case for everybody she was 186 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: associated with. The No and I like you, I just 187 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 1: I cannot I struggle. I cannot get past institutionalizing her son. Yeah, 188 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 1: that one's rough. It's really hard. Um, and don't don't know. 189 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: I have no idea. Yeah, we could speculate, but we 190 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: don't know. The biography of her that I mentioned that, 191 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,079 Speaker 1: which is called Goddess of Anarchy. The Life and Times 192 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:52,079 Speaker 1: of Lucy Partinson's American Radical Jack by Jacqueline Jones is 193 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: a much thicker book than I expected when I went 194 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: to get it, because often, um, when we're talking about 195 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 1: the life of a woman that's maybe not as well 196 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 1: documented as we would like. Um, often it's the you 197 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 1: wind up with a book that's maybe, uh, you know, 198 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 1: a couple of hundred pages long. H This one, including 199 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 1: its index and its notes as like four fifty pages long. 200 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: I was like, this so much book, um, And a 201 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: lot of it does talk more about Albert. We didn't 202 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 1: talk as much about Albert because this episode was not 203 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: about him, and a lot of the more specific details 204 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:32,959 Speaker 1: of like the places that she went and the the 205 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: work that she did, and the acknowledgement of times when 206 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: it's like this is kind of a baffling and even 207 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: horrifying decision that we know nothing about the motivations for Yeah, 208 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 1: it's hard to parse them out when you don't have 209 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: that context, we're kind of left going, yeah, but wait, yeah, 210 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 1: we can't know it. It's very tricky. Oh lucy, why 211 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 1: are you so difficult? I listened to several interviews, UM 212 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 1: with folks who were kind of talking through, you know, 213 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: the the the evolving understanding of her her racial and 214 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,839 Speaker 1: ethnic background, because there have been a lot of folks 215 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 1: that have kind of claimed her as part of their 216 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 1: community in a way that has then been important to 217 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: that community, Like this is an example of, for example, 218 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: a Hispanic woman who was doing this kind of work 219 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 1: during the the late nineteenth and early twentieth century. UM. 220 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 1: And then people's own thought process of realizing that the 221 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: story was a little more complicated than that, and a 222 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 1: lot of the interviews that I listened to where people 223 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 1: sort of talked themselves or talked the interviewer through their 224 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: own process on it, UM all kind of arrived at 225 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: the same place of like, I don't feel like I 226 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 1: can judge that part of it, Like, uh, you know, 227 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 1: I cannot say I would not have done the same 228 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: thing in that situation if I had the chance to, uh, 229 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: to start over and maybe have a life that was 230 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: not as heavily restricted and not as threatened that I 231 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 1: would not necessarily choose to do something else. I don't 232 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 1: think I would institutionalize my family member involuntarily for trying 233 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: to join the army when I didn't want them to 234 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 1: do them. I would hope I would not do that. No, no, um, 235 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 1: I have definitely known family members to threaten such things. 236 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 1: But but yeah, I I it's such a weird thing. 237 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 1: I mean, just like, in terms of human psychology, if 238 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 1: you do not believe the same thing as me, you 239 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 1: must be crazy. Mm hm. That's like a whole other 240 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 1: parcel to unpack that way outside the scope of this. 241 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: But it's one of those things where I'm always like, 242 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: this is one of the problems with you. Yeah. Um. 243 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 1: People have also commented a lot about the discrepancy between 244 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 1: her basically advocating against the idea of free love but 245 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: also kind of living the life that, at least to 246 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: some extent, free love advocates were advocating for. Yeah, that 247 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 1: one is a contradiction, for sure. Yeah. That to me though, 248 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 1: is like I feel like I see that play out 249 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 1: to some to greater or lesser extent. Uh, in a 250 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: lot of different contexts where a person's own behavior doesn't 251 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: necessarily align with what they think is the ideal behavior, right, um, 252 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: and again we're like, did you imagine this is did 253 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: you see this as a contradiction in your own self? 254 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: Don't know, I don't know, not documented. That's one of 255 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: those moments where I always think, like, is it because 256 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: you think you're above the pitfalls of this or do 257 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 1: you just have a disconnect? We don't know. That's a 258 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 1: good question, and we don't really know. I don't really know, 259 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: And yeah, probably not possible to know. Again at a 260 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: lot of this point the time machine list, Yeah, we're 261 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: just gonna go knock, knock, knock. We have some questions, 262 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: have some questions for you that we go really well, 263 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 1: So anyway, she's I think she's probably the most complicated 264 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: uh figure I have tried to write about in a while, 265 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: and made it challenging to get a episode outline to 266 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: a place where I felt like it was comprehensible and 267 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: also acknowledging some of those contradictions and complexities. So, uh, definitely, 268 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: if you want to know more, check out that book. 269 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: It's only the second by biography of her that has 270 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: ever liked, only the second full length like book biography 271 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 1: of her that has been written so uh again. Happy Friday. 272 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: I hope everybody has a great weekend whatever is on 273 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:15,920 Speaker 1: your plates. We'll be back tomorrow with a Saturday Classic 274 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: and then Monday with something brand new. And send us 275 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 1: an email if you want. Where history podcasts at my 276 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 1: heart radio dot com. Stuff you Missed in History Class 277 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: is a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts 278 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 1: from I heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, 279 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.