Speaker 1: Hi, This is Malan Vervier and this is Kim Azarelli.
Speaker 1: We are co authors of the book Fast Forward, How
Speaker 1: Women Can Achieve Power and Purpose. And you're listening to
Speaker 1: Seneca Women Conversations on Power and Purpose, brought to you
Speaker 1: by the Seneca Women Podcast Network and I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: Professor Muhammad Units has helped millions of women lift themselves
Speaker 1: out of poverty. Sometimes referred to as the Banker for
Speaker 1: the Poor, he built Gramine Bank based on the principle
Speaker 1: that access to capital is a fundamental human right. The
Speaker 1: bank gives small loans to impoverished women to help them
Speaker 1: start and grow their businesses. Turns out these women are
Speaker 1: a great credit risk. Not only do they pay back
Speaker 1: their loans, but they also reinvest their earnings in our communities,
Speaker 1: improving everything from education to health care. Units joined us
Speaker 1: at the Seneca Women form at the Metropolitan Museum of
Speaker 1: Art where he sat down with Chelsea Clinton. Listen to
Speaker 1: their conversation and learn about the incredible work that earned
Speaker 1: Units a Nobel Peace Prize, and here about the advice
Speaker 1: he has for each of us on how we can
Speaker 1: make a difference and stick around after the conversation. For
Speaker 1: my top takeaways. We'll be back after this break. It's like, well,
Speaker 1: it is such a privilege for me to be here
Speaker 1: UM with someone I have long admired. UM. I actually
Speaker 1: was honored to visit a Gramen village UM more than
Speaker 1: twenty years ago. Goodness, UM, and you know saw than
Speaker 1: the transformative kind of power and action UM of of
Speaker 1: micro credit and yet understood then and I think understand
Speaker 1: kind of more deeply now that kind of the loan
Speaker 1: is only the beginning of of the relationship between UM
Speaker 1: Gramin and it's now I think nine million borrowers. And
Speaker 1: so I think given the video highlighted kind of the
Speaker 1: credit dimension and that is where Gramin had its origins
Speaker 1: more than forty years ago. You know, Professor Units, could
Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about um kind of what
Speaker 1: else goes along with the loan UM. So that kind
Speaker 1: of the money is maximally empowering and affecting for your borrowers,
Speaker 1: their families and their communities. Well, thank you. You remember
Speaker 1: the your visit plus years back. Uh, that was the
Speaker 1: middle of our journey. Now for years now it's all
Speaker 1: over Bangladesh. It's every single village is there. Uh Now
Speaker 1: over nine million borrowers. As you mentioned, it's not only credit,
Speaker 1: because that word coined for the work that we do
Speaker 1: is micro credit. So everybody they lend money. But there
Speaker 1: are many other dimension to the our work. For example,
Speaker 1: every borrower has to have a savings account as soon
Speaker 1: as she starts the journey with us, so that even
Speaker 1: if you're very poor, even if it's a penny per week,
Speaker 1: you put the penny. Never missed that every every week
Speaker 1: you have to put something in your account. So people
Speaker 1: were wondering why this little money and what's the use
Speaker 1: of this money, But the power of doing it regularly
Speaker 1: didn't realize at that time. We didn't realize at that
Speaker 1: time how big that will be. For example, today we
Speaker 1: lend out about two and a half billion dollars a
Speaker 1: year to these borrowers that we have in their savings account.
Speaker 1: From two thou sixteen, middle of two thou sixteen, they
Speaker 1: exceeded the total amount that we lend to mean that
Speaker 1: they have more money in their savings account then we
Speaker 1: lend me. It is more than two and a half
Speaker 1: billion dollars in their savings account, so they are not
Speaker 1: only borrowers, their savers. And I tell the officials of
Speaker 1: the coming bank. I said, well, you don't refer to
Speaker 1: them as borrower anymore because they are actually lenders. You
Speaker 1: have the borrower because they give you more money than
Speaker 1: you give them. So that's kind of turning on the
Speaker 1: whole thing. And when you have money in your bank account,
Speaker 1: you feel completely different. You're secure, you're not up in
Speaker 1: the air not knowing what the world is looking like.
Speaker 1: Will we like here? So that's one aspect of it.
Speaker 1: Then we tried to make the second generation of the
Speaker 1: borrowers make sure that they don't repeat the same thing
Speaker 1: as their parents who are illiterate. So you want to
Speaker 1: make sure the second generation will go to school and
Speaker 1: go as far as they can go, and they continue
Speaker 1: to go to school, continue to go to higher education
Speaker 1: and come in banking scholarships, come in bank of education loan,
Speaker 1: so that nobody stops education just because there's not money
Speaker 1: for them. So they will say, your mother's bank has
Speaker 1: all the money that you need, you just go ahead
Speaker 1: and continue. So you have a whole new generation, second
Speaker 1: generation coming up literacy education in that system. So that's
Speaker 1: another part of it. Sanitation one thing which just was
Speaker 1: missing completely for years back in Bangladeshi villages and so on.
Speaker 1: We made a rule in come in bank. If you
Speaker 1: want to join them in bank, first thing you have
Speaker 1: to do is to dig a hole and use it
Speaker 1: as a pittal train. In the beginning they were puzzled,
Speaker 1: white we have to do that, But soon they realize
Speaker 1: how important that is. And then you started giving loans
Speaker 1: for sanitary toilet that are very special type which is
Speaker 1: designed by W. H O and very effectively. Uh simple.
Speaker 1: So we build this in the village and give them
Speaker 1: the loan and they go to the company that we
Speaker 1: created which is producing it. They come in and install
Speaker 1: it for you. And women loved this idea because for
Speaker 1: them is such a deep hassle to wait for the
Speaker 1: sun to go down so that they can go out.
Speaker 1: Men can go any time they want, but not the
Speaker 1: women because they have to wait. And so Twoman of
Speaker 1: Spain for them. So when they see that this one
Speaker 1: is releasing their all these patients pent up problems. They
Speaker 1: were so happy. It brought pressure on the families, even
Speaker 1: well of families, rich families. We still don't have toilets h.
Speaker 1: Then they are women and their families started complaining, how
Speaker 1: can even the begger women have their toilets, we don't
Speaker 1: have them. So that pressure now brought to Bangladesh. Almost
Speaker 1: every single village now have toilets because everywhere so so
Speaker 1: it's not only limited to the gramin bank families. It
Speaker 1: is spilt over to it. And healthcare as another issue
Speaker 1: that we realized that this is this is almost synonymous.
Speaker 1: If you are poor, you are poor in health. So
Speaker 1: it goes together and it shows up in many different ways.
Speaker 1: How those children become sick and thin and manly ashed
Speaker 1: and mothers particularly extremely man that wished and have so
Speaker 1: many problems. So we went into a healthcare program. So
Speaker 1: a series of things developed along the way. Some of
Speaker 1: them became a series of businesses that we created a
Speaker 1: special type of business, meaning that he has to be
Speaker 1: self sustaining, like sanitation is a self slufstaining. It's not
Speaker 1: a charity. We give them the loan, they pay over
Speaker 1: a long period, but they pay back, so that there
Speaker 1: is no obligation for somebody that I'm obliged to give
Speaker 1: me a free toilet. There's no free toilet, so you
Speaker 1: pay for it and it's your toilet. And for healthcare,
Speaker 1: we made it very simple, very effective, so that they
Speaker 1: can buy it and make it happen, So that let
Speaker 1: it us into a different dimension and completely called social
Speaker 1: business business to solve problems rather than make money. But
Speaker 1: I think you were already engaged in the work before
Speaker 1: you realize that you were doing exactly have any ideas,
Speaker 1: but no idea what you were doing until you realized
Speaker 1: you had done it and then had to name it.
Speaker 1: So maybe you could talk a little bit about this
Speaker 1: kind of social business and kind of what that, what
Speaker 1: that means, um and and the different manifestations, because I
Speaker 1: know they're also different types of social business as well
Speaker 1: as clearly different industries that you're engaged in. Seeing this
Speaker 1: repeatedly that people kept saying, what is that that you're
Speaker 1: doing that? Does it make sense to you? I said,
Speaker 1: it makes on the sense to me. But you're not
Speaker 1: making any money. I said, I don't want to make money.
Speaker 1: I want to solve the problem. I don't want to
Speaker 1: lose money either. That's the company makes money, but the
Speaker 1: company keeps the money. Uh, And I'm not I'm doing
Speaker 1: it to solve the problem. So gradually I gave it
Speaker 1: the name is a problem solving company to distinguish it
Speaker 1: from the money making company. There's a problem solving company.
Speaker 1: People love to day and say, well, what is a
Speaker 1: problem solving company? And then I have to give a
Speaker 1: little respectable name called it social business. Now it's became
Speaker 1: known as a social business globally and people love it.
Speaker 1: And we do that and we create created hospital created
Speaker 1: like Ika hospital. There's a uh. Cataract is a big
Speaker 1: issue in Bangladays. I'm sure it's many other countries. People
Speaker 1: don't know that they can fix their eyes. They think
Speaker 1: if you grow old, you see less. It is part
Speaker 1: of the growing up process or getting old proceedging process.
Speaker 1: Then we said no, this you can be fixed. But
Speaker 1: it for them. It's very difficult to come to the city,
Speaker 1: to pay a lot of money to come to the city.
Speaker 1: And usually when a Bangladeshi person goes to a hospital,
Speaker 1: the whole family goes back, so they will not let
Speaker 1: him go alone or let her go along. So it
Speaker 1: becomes extremely expensive for people to bring the whole family
Speaker 1: to the city and do that. So what we did
Speaker 1: we've built a beautiful i caa hospital in the village
Speaker 1: and then started providing the service, very good quality service.
Speaker 1: People loved it. But we made a payment system if
Speaker 1: you can afford to pay the full price, you pay
Speaker 1: that it's about thirty dollars to have one. I've cataract operation.
Speaker 1: Very good surgeon. Uh. And if you cannot afford the
Speaker 1: full price, you pay for the consumables like the lens
Speaker 1: you got, the medicines that we gave and so on.
Speaker 1: So whatever you're using, you don't have to pay for
Speaker 1: the establishments and so and if you cannot afford that,
Speaker 1: you just pay token one dollar and everything will be done.
Speaker 1: So we make money at thirty dollars when we do that,
Speaker 1: and we cross subsidize at people who cannot pay the
Speaker 1: full price. So the whole hospital is run with the
Speaker 1: covering the entire funds entire money. The first hospital came
Speaker 1: to the break even point in four years. We're very
Speaker 1: happy that we came to the break even point. Now
Speaker 1: it's self sustaining. Then you started the second hospital in
Speaker 1: another part of the country. That hospital came to break
Speaker 1: even point in three years, so we got more excited.
Speaker 1: Now we have four hospitals running and they are paying
Speaker 1: back the money that we invested. And as we get
Speaker 1: better money, we invest in another hospital. So the same
Speaker 1: money now going around building one hospital after another hospital
Speaker 1: as a social business, because in social business you return
Speaker 1: the money that is invested and you don't take any
Speaker 1: profit after that profit is blocked back into the system.
Speaker 1: So this is what just happening. And also we had
Speaker 1: the problem of electricity Bangladesh. That's and happy electricity, particularly
Speaker 1: individual villigious. You go to the villages, you see kerosene lamb.
Speaker 1: That's about what you can say anywhere you go. Everybody
Speaker 1: sad thing to see when the sun goes down, the
Speaker 1: whole country becomes dark. They all see little feeble them
Speaker 1: and feel said that in this day and age people
Speaker 1: have to live like that. It reminds you of the
Speaker 1: cave days, not to civilized days. So one idea that
Speaker 1: we came out, why don't you bring the solar energy
Speaker 1: that doesn't need huge investment build all those thingsfrastructure of
Speaker 1: which government has to do. This can be done by
Speaker 1: individuals and we can convince the expert that said always
Speaker 1: two difficulties to experience. It's good for Europe, good for
Speaker 1: North America, but it's not good for banglareshious and roses.
Speaker 1: So let's try that. So we created a company called
Speaker 1: Grammin Energy or Grammy shock Ting and it started selling
Speaker 1: solar home system and they were in the beginning everybody,
Speaker 1: this is too expensive. We cannot afford it. Selling five
Speaker 1: or six solar home system per month. It was such
Speaker 1: a challenge, but we didn't give up that this could
Speaker 1: finally people who realize the benefit of it. Then we
Speaker 1: came up to the very simple idea. We tell them, okay,
Speaker 1: it's expensive. You tell us it's expensive. How much you
Speaker 1: spend in your carosine every month. They didn't calculate, Oh,
Speaker 1: I spent so much for our carosine at home. Why
Speaker 1: didn't you give to every month the same amount to us,
Speaker 1: and we give you the solar home system. So you
Speaker 1: know this is not something additional. You just get everything.
Speaker 1: You get your solar home system and you do it
Speaker 1: for three years. Once you have done this for three years,
Speaker 1: every month save money that you spent for kerosine. This
Speaker 1: is all yours. You don't have to pay a penny
Speaker 1: to anybody because in the meantime we've got our money back,
Speaker 1: the spent that we've money spent for the solar system.
Speaker 1: Then this is started rising. We came in our in
Speaker 1: the fifteenth year of our operation this company, we came
Speaker 1: to a level who were selling a thousand solar home
Speaker 1: system per day. Today we have nearly two million homes
Speaker 1: with solar home system all self that everything, it don't
Speaker 1: it's not a charity system. You're paying back just like
Speaker 1: your electricity bill every month. You're paying the caro bill,
Speaker 1: that's all. And you've got your solar system. And we
Speaker 1: became the largest of great solar system in the whole world.
Speaker 1: Nobody was well. While social business may have kind of
Speaker 1: more pizzas to it, I think problem solving maybe more accurate. Yes, um,
Speaker 1: you know, Professor Units, I think it would be particularly
Speaker 1: interesting to the people here this evening if you could
Speaker 1: talk about your experience over last ten years with with
Speaker 1: Gramine in America, because it's been a decade since since
Speaker 1: you've been here formally, Although maybe you could talk about
Speaker 1: one of your first trips to America, which was at
Speaker 1: the invitation of my parents more than thirty years ago
Speaker 1: exactly so, Professor Units came to Arkansas I think in
Speaker 1: nine three, way back way back. But we are continuing
Speaker 1: to date ourselves here on the stage this evening, but
Speaker 1: maybe just talk a little bit about that experience. But really, um,
Speaker 1: I think the audience and I certainly would love to
Speaker 1: hear about kind of now your your decades perspective of
Speaker 1: working with with Gramine here in America and um and
Speaker 1: where you think you're going next. You sent me to
Speaker 1: the memory lane. Now, somebody told me that there's governor
Speaker 1: in a US state who is interested in what we're
Speaker 1: doing in Bangladesh. I didn't know who this guy is.
Speaker 1: Then one thing is extually to see the letter from him.
Speaker 1: He said, would be very happy when you come to
Speaker 1: the United States. You'd like to talk to you and
Speaker 1: uh like to understand what you're doing. So I said, okay,
Speaker 1: when I come next tent if I'll do that. So
Speaker 1: I did that. At that time. Governor was attending Governor's
Speaker 1: conference in Washington the day I Kim, so he said,
Speaker 1: when you're coming, if you come to Washington, you don't
Speaker 1: have to go to ARKANSO we meet there. So I
Speaker 1: met him that the governor of Arkansas, Bill Clinton, and
Speaker 1: his wife Hillary Clinton in a hotel room four seasons Hotel,
Speaker 1: I remember. So he questioned and question and question. He's
Speaker 1: two banker friends, American banker friends also present, because he
Speaker 1: wants to understand how much it sounds like a banking
Speaker 1: um At the end, he said, oh, this is fantastic.
Speaker 1: Can you can we do it in Arkansas? We need
Speaker 1: it because exactly what you have the same problem. We
Speaker 1: have lots of poverty and so on. This is the
Speaker 1: exactly right thing for us. Then he asked the banker friends,
Speaker 1: how long will it take to do that? To process
Speaker 1: this whole thing? She started, The banker friend said, you
Speaker 1: need this clearance, you need this permission. It will be
Speaker 1: between six months a year before you can really set
Speaker 1: it up. So Bill Clinton was very upset that they
Speaker 1: take so much time. You want to get it done
Speaker 1: right away. He looks at me, he said, do we
Speaker 1: have to wait that long? I said, not with me?
Speaker 1: I said, how long will you take? I said, I
Speaker 1: can start tomorrow. I'm plending money. I don't have to
Speaker 1: go to anybody. I mean, you don't call it a bank.
Speaker 1: The moment you call it a bank, you get trapped
Speaker 1: in all the rules and procedures. I'm just giving the money,
Speaker 1: that's all SPI He said. I like that. Why didn't
Speaker 1: you come to Arkansas? I said, and that that's a
Speaker 1: very elaborate visit to arkansole meeting, I said. The amazing
Speaker 1: resultside people sitting there. There's no work. There used to
Speaker 1: be a government tractory closed down, no jobs. And I
Speaker 1: started talking to them. They couldn't believe a bank will
Speaker 1: lend them the money. Said, no, bank don't have the money.
Speaker 1: Why should they talk to you. I said, no, I'm
Speaker 1: not a bank. I just came to you. If you
Speaker 1: think you can use some money, I'll give you the money.
Speaker 1: Then they started talking, and you started this program called
Speaker 1: Coming Fund in Arkansas and became a very formal structure,
Speaker 1: and so started doing that. It continued, We get very encouraged,
Speaker 1: but after governor got elected as a president, they gradually
Speaker 1: the program get died down. It's nobody paid any attention
Speaker 1: to it. And then every time I come to United States,
Speaker 1: people say, well, coming doesn't work in Bangladesh. In the
Speaker 1: United States, it's my work in Bangladesh, but Americas a
Speaker 1: different content will never work. And later on people saying,
Speaker 1: we tried it five hundred times in five different institutions,
Speaker 1: don't it doesn't work. Then I started saying, you can
Speaker 1: do with five thousand times and every time you will fail.
Speaker 1: But I will keep saying it can be done. How
Speaker 1: come it's fails? And you said it can be done,
Speaker 1: I said, fails. It doesn't mean it cannot be done. Fails.
Speaker 1: It only means you didn't know how to do it.
Speaker 1: Very a little thing. And somebody in the audience stood
Speaker 1: up that if you're so sure, why didn't you do
Speaker 1: it here? I said, I'll do that. Give me the money,
Speaker 1: I'll do it. And that was the beginning of GRAMM
Speaker 1: in America. And the guy after the conference, he just
Speaker 1: stood by. He said, how much money would you need?
Speaker 1: I just quickly calculated, and how many borrowers? What on
Speaker 1: the difficult size of loan. I said, for each branch,
Speaker 1: you have to find me at least six million dollars,
Speaker 1: assuming that there'll be four thousand borrowers. He said, I'll
Speaker 1: find it for you. I said, then I'll do it
Speaker 1: for you. So we started this discussion went on in
Speaker 1: two thousand and seven. In two we runched it in
Speaker 1: January in Jackson Height and became a beautiful branch. Every
Speaker 1: single thing. It's a hard work because people didn't understand
Speaker 1: what it is. We have to explain everything that we did.
Speaker 1: We send someone from Bangladesh branch manager in Bangladesh. I
Speaker 1: told him why you do it in Zexon height. He said,
Speaker 1: but I've never been to the United States. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know anything about United States. I said, who
Speaker 1: told you to do anything about the United States? You
Speaker 1: know everything about grammin in Bank. That's why we're selling
Speaker 1: you there. You just do whatever coming in bank does.
Speaker 1: They don't listen to anybody. He did precisely that he
Speaker 1: could careless what people say, Oh, you have to do this,
Speaker 1: I said. He said, I don't do anything. I do district.
Speaker 1: It worked, and today there are twenty branches all over
Speaker 1: the United States. There are seven branches right here in
Speaker 1: New York. Andrea was here. He was He was explaining
Speaker 1: hundred thou borrowers already all over the United Women. They
Speaker 1: lent a billion dollar already, and they're planning for the
Speaker 1: next ten years. They're celebrating tonight that their first decade,
Speaker 1: and they're calculating how much money they will be needing.
Speaker 1: So I was asking them last night. I was saying,
Speaker 1: how much money you needed to get to the billion dollars?
Speaker 1: They calculated less than a hundred million dollars. With hundred
Speaker 1: million dollars, we gave one billion dollar. Long that's the
Speaker 1: kind of capacity that you want when you recycle money,
Speaker 1: I said, from one hundred thousand borrowers. How far do
Speaker 1: you want to go safely? She said, we have twenty
Speaker 1: branches now we can do easily forty branches very quietly,
Speaker 1: no problem. And how much money can you give up?
Speaker 1: Said ten billion dollars? And how much money will be
Speaker 1: needing for ten billion dollars? Calculates are two fifty million
Speaker 1: dollars and retainment record, no legal papers, no lawyers involved.
Speaker 1: Everything is perfect. I hope it is evident now why
Speaker 1: Mohammed Units is a hero to me into so many
Speaker 1: um and I'm thrilled. I think if I heard correctly
Speaker 1: that he's only just getting started in his work here
Speaker 1: in the United States. Yes, good, you heard it here
Speaker 1: on stage. And two d fifty million dollars not a
Speaker 1: lot of money. Anybody can do that. Just provide the money.
Speaker 1: It will be ten billion dollars in ten years. Be
Speaker 1: your friends are listening here, same thing as well as
Speaker 1: it does all my problem solvers. It just doesn't make
Speaker 1: sense to me. For two hundred fifty million dollars a
Speaker 1: million half a million women could change their life, and
Speaker 1: you give ten billion dollars as a loan to them.
Speaker 1: And you get it back. Never happened in history, but
Speaker 1: they're doing making that history. It's all questions, just putting.
Speaker 1: And you're not giving away the two hundred fifty million dollars.
Speaker 1: Those two hundred fifty million dollars will return to you.
Speaker 1: That is still these people will be I'm converted, alrighty,
Speaker 1: But I certainly hope that if you weren't at the
Speaker 1: beginning of the session this evening, you are now, and
Speaker 1: I want if we don't get at least keep going,
Speaker 1: I'm with you if you if you don't get that
Speaker 1: two additivety billion dollars to put it to the second decade,
Speaker 1: I'll say something wrong in the American mind. I cannot
Speaker 1: understand this, terribly wrong. Well, hopefully the collective we and
Speaker 1: more broadly will will prove that there is still quite
Speaker 1: a lot right in America and that we do have
Speaker 1: to continue to fight for a shared future. So I
Speaker 1: just am incredibly grateful. Please don't give Professor Units a
Speaker 1: tremendous robber pause. Thank you very much. Stay tuned for
Speaker 1: our takeaways after this break. I hope you enjoyed that
Speaker 1: fantastic conversation between Chelsea Clinton and per Fessor Mohammed Unis.
Speaker 1: Visit Grimin Foundation dot org to learn more about the
Speaker 1: Grameen Bank and the amazing work they're doing around the world.
Speaker 1: Our top takeaways. First, Unie shows us that models that
Speaker 1: recognize the fundamental dignity and potential of every human being
Speaker 1: will succeed. He challenged the notion that impoverished women are
Speaker 1: bad credit risk and the results are phenomenal. Second, social
Speaker 1: businesses may provide us with the opportunity to solve some
Speaker 1: of the world's toughest challenges, and inspired by Unice, more
Speaker 1: and more entrepreneurs are starting their businesses with exactly that
Speaker 1: in mind. Finally, when we change the way we look
Speaker 1: at the world, anything is possible. Unit saw potential where
Speaker 1: others saw poverty, and when the critics said his plan
Speaker 1: was unworkable, he stuck to his vision, reminding us that
Speaker 1: failure doesn't mean it can't be done, only that it
Speaker 1: hasn't worked yet. You're listening to Seneca Women Conversations on
Speaker 1: Power and Purpose, brought to you by the Seneca Women
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Speaker 1: a great day.