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Speaker 1: Hi, guys, Nancy Grace here, welcome back to Killers amongst Us,

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Speaker 1: the production of iHeartMedia and Crime Online on the elevator,

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Speaker 1: on the stairs in and out the front door of

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Speaker 1: the apartment complex. Who would know there is a killer

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Speaker 1: amongst us? What happened to twenty seven year old Ellen Greenberg?

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Speaker 1: Her parents demanding answers? I, Nancy Race, this is Killers

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Speaker 1: amongst Us? Thank you for being with us, with me.

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Speaker 1: Stephanie Farr, investigative reporter, Philadelphia Inquirer. You can find her

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Speaker 1: at Twitter at Far Far r Away. Joe Scott Morgan,

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Speaker 1: Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet,

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Speaker 1: star of a brand new hit series on True Network,

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Speaker 1: Poisonous Liaisons. Tom Brennan, private investigator working with the Greenberg's

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Speaker 1: for justice. Doctor Angela Arnold, psychiatrist joining us out of

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Speaker 1: the Atlanta jurisdiction. You can find her at Angela Arnold

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Speaker 1: MD dot com. Veteran trial lawyer, former prosecutor, now defense attorney.

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Speaker 1: Darryl Cohen you can find him at Cohen Cooper, Estep

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Speaker 1: and Allen Law Firm, and special guests Josh Greenberg, Ellen's

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Speaker 1: father and Sandy Greenberg her loving mother. You can also

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Speaker 1: find both of them at Facebook dot com slash Justice

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Speaker 1: for Ellen two thousand nineteen, Repeat Justice for Ellen two

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Speaker 1: thousand nineteen. Stephanie. I still and all homicides I've worked

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Speaker 1: and investigated, I've never seen this many stab wounds on

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Speaker 1: a person, including on the back of the neck, deemed

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Speaker 1: a suicide. And I actually tried a case where the

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Speaker 1: death was first deemed a suicide, but based on blood

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Speaker 1: spatter and computer searches, that theory was disproved and there

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Speaker 1: was a guilty verdict. So I'm very curious about how

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Speaker 1: the case was first ruled a suicide and procedurally what

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Speaker 1: happened after that. Yeah, So, according to my conversations with police,

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Speaker 1: when they get to the scene that night, they carry

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Speaker 1: it as a suicide for the reasons that we've mentioned before,

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Speaker 1: the lack of defensive wounds, the locks, the fact that

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Speaker 1: the fiance stated at the scene. It was only the

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Speaker 1: next day at homicide that all that excuse me, The

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Speaker 1: only next day at the medical examiner's autopsy report that

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Speaker 1: the case was ruled a homicide when he discovered all

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Speaker 1: twe of the stab wounds that Allen had suffered. At

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Speaker 1: that point police had already cleared the scene unless the apartment.

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Speaker 1: People had been in and out of the apartment, and

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Speaker 1: so they had to scramble. The homicide unit now had

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Speaker 1: to scramble to start in mestigating this case again as

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Speaker 1: a homicide. So White ant let me understand. Stephanie said

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Speaker 1: the scene had been contaminated at that point. People have

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Speaker 1: been in and out. Correct. Correct, according to my conversation

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Speaker 1: with the building manager. Yes, people had been in and

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Speaker 1: out of the apartment after police had left it. Guys,

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Speaker 1: take a listen to our friend Amanda Duarte. At accident,

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Speaker 1: suicide or murder. An autopsy was performed the day after

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Speaker 1: Ellen died. At autopsy, ten stab wounds to the back

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Speaker 1: of the victim's neck were discovered. The autopsy revealed the

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Speaker 1: proximately nineteen stab wounds and one cock wound. The seeding

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Speaker 1: had multiple wounds to the front of her body as

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Speaker 1: well as to the back of her neck. She had

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Speaker 1: a ten stab wounds to the back aspect of her neck.

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Speaker 1: It's difficult to inflict those type of wounds on yourself.

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Speaker 1: The examination also revealed that Ellen had multiple bruises over

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Speaker 1: parts of her body. What caused the bruising someone though

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Speaker 1: more relatively knew somewhere a little bit older. She could

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Speaker 1: have engaged in some contact sports. She could have bumped

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Speaker 1: into certain things could be done from a blow of

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Speaker 1: the fists. Contacts sports. Wait a minute, Sandy, I believe

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Speaker 1: I recall you, Josh Jell. I mean she played softball

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Speaker 1: earlier in her life. But what contact sport would that

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Speaker 1: have been at age twenty seven? There was no contact sports.

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Speaker 1: It was the middle of winter. Just ridiculous contact sports. Guys. Also,

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Speaker 1: take a listen to our friend jan Carabeo at CBS

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Speaker 1: three Philly. She was stabbed twenty times. Half of the

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Speaker 1: wounds to the back of her neck. You talk to

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Speaker 1: any reasonable person and they all say, what the hell

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Speaker 1: is going on. Tom Brennan logged twenty five years with

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Speaker 1: the Pennsylvania State Police and worked at the FBI's Behavioral

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Speaker 1: Science Unit in Quantico, Virginia. Now retired, he has worked

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Speaker 1: nearly seven years pro bono with the Greenberg's investigating Ellen's death.

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Speaker 1: I said this is a homicide, but the medical examiner's

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Speaker 1: report says there was no sign of a struggle, nothing

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Speaker 1: was obviously missing or disturbed. Only Ellen's DNA was found

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Speaker 1: on the knife in her chest, and Ellen had no

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Speaker 1: defense injuries to her hands or forearms. Still, Brennan says,

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Speaker 1: none of that prooves this was suicide. Didn't they ever

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Speaker 1: hear a blitz where a victim doesn't get the opportunity

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Speaker 1: to defend themselves. Or if you had your back toward

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Speaker 1: the intruder and you're standing at the sink slicing up fruit,

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Speaker 1: you never would know what hit you. But a light

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Speaker 1: of now twenty stab wounds, take a listen to this.

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Speaker 1: When the autopsy was over, the medical examiner issued a

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Speaker 1: ruling that directly contradicted the initial findings of police investigators,

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Speaker 1: the medical examiner and leave it was a homicide. One

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Speaker 1: of the most striking things was the fact that a

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Speaker 1: knife was still embedded in this young woman's chest. There

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Speaker 1: is a significant degree of force probably needed to inflect

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Speaker 1: that type of wound that certainly is indicative of a homicide.

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Speaker 1: The Emmy's homicide ruling officially turned Ellen's case into a

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Speaker 1: murder investigation, as the Greenbergs prepared to bury their only child.

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Speaker 1: So Stephanie far with me from the Philadelphia Inquirer. Stephanie.

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Speaker 1: At first, it was damed as suicide because cops apparently

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Speaker 1: didn't realize the number of stab wounds that Ellen sustained.

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Speaker 1: But then after the autopsy, the medical examiner declared it

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Speaker 1: was a homicide. Right, So after the medical examiner declared

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Speaker 1: that a homicide, police have to then go back and

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Speaker 1: open a homicide investigation on the case. In my thirteen

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Speaker 1: year career in Philadelphia, this is the only instance where

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Speaker 1: I have seen that police actually publicly went against the

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Speaker 1: findings of the medical Examiner's office. So the medical Examiner's

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Speaker 1: office releases their homicide finding and on January twenty ninth.

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Speaker 1: By January twenty ninth, police are telling the media in

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Speaker 1: Philadelphia that despite the homicide ruling, authorities were leaning towards

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Speaker 1: suicide in Ellen's case and looking into quote in mental

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Speaker 1: issues she might have had. I don't understand how a

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Speaker 1: police officer, and I've been in law enforcement myself as

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Speaker 1: a prosecutor, but I certainly know my limitations. How what

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Speaker 1: a cop better, no cod than a medical examiner. They

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Speaker 1: would not to my understanding, And you know, there was

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Speaker 1: a back and forth, it seems, between a medical Examiner's

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Speaker 1: office and the police department for some time before the

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Speaker 1: medical Examiner's Office made the rare decisions to flip flop

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Speaker 1: it's ruling and label Ellen's case a suicide instead of

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Speaker 1: a homicide. Did the Medical Examiner's Office give any reason

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Speaker 1: for reversing their decision it was a homicide. No. The

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Speaker 1: Medical Examiner's Office gave no public reasoning to the press

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Speaker 1: here in Philadelphia, and to the best mile out knowledge

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Speaker 1: at the time, gave no reasoning to her family either,

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Speaker 1: and police didn't explain to us either. And at the

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Speaker 1: time in Philadelphia, all we knew were that there was

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Speaker 1: multiple stab wounds. We did not know the nature and

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Speaker 1: extent of the wounds that Ellen had suffered that day.

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Speaker 1: To Ellen's dad Josh Greenberg, Josh, I just at her

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Speaker 1: funeral there the synagogue, you divulge. This is no longer

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Speaker 1: damned as suicide. This is a homicide. What was the

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Speaker 1: look on the fiance's face when that came out? Stunned.

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Speaker 1: Let me point out yet again, no one has been

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Speaker 1: named a POI person of inches, much less a suspect

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Speaker 1: in this case. I would like to go back for

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Speaker 1: a second, Nancy, if we could. Tom Brennan and his

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Speaker 1: investigation spoke to the Medical Examiner about this event of

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Speaker 1: the change. I'd like Tom to explain the conversation he

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Speaker 1: had with the Emmy. Oh yes, please do Tom. When

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Speaker 1: I first got involved in the investigation, one of the

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Speaker 1: first things I wanted to do was speak with the

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Speaker 1: apologist that performed the autopsy, doctor Osborne. Wilon Osborne. I

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Speaker 1: called the Medical Examiner's office, the director's doctor Sam Galino,

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Speaker 1: and doctor Sam mcglino stated that he would not permit

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Speaker 1: me to interview doctor Osborne, but over time I was persistent,

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Speaker 1: and over time, once I got doctor Ross involved, doctor

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Speaker 1: Gallino relented and sent me an email and said that well,

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Speaker 1: since doctor Ross and doctor Osborne are medical professionals, he

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Speaker 1: would permit a conference call to occur. So we had

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Speaker 1: a conference call and we hit. That conference call took

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Speaker 1: place in the Duffin County Corner's Office. President was doctor Ross.

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Speaker 1: The Ductin County Corner Graham, Hetrick and myself. Doctor Ross

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Speaker 1: asked doctor Osborne a number of questions. There was a

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Speaker 1: lot of back and forth. Then I began asking doctor

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Speaker 1: Osborne's from questions. My last question to him was tell

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Speaker 1: me why you would change the cause and manner of

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Speaker 1: death from homicide to suicide. And he said, well, I

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Speaker 1: did that at the insistence of the police, because the

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Speaker 1: police said there was a lack of defense. Wolds and

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Speaker 1: I said, does any of those police officers have a

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Speaker 1: degree in pathology? And with that the call ended. So

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Speaker 1: and that call was witnessed by doctor Ross in the

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Speaker 1: Dolphin County corner Graham, hetrick, So what about it, Jessicot,

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Speaker 1: I hear you break it in, go yeah, I got

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Speaker 1: I don't even know where to begin with this. I

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Speaker 1: think the biggest question I would have is that we've

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Speaker 1: heard all about the cops at the scene, all right.

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Speaker 1: I want to know what representatives from the from the

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Speaker 1: Philadelphia Medical Examiner's Office were physically at the scene. It's

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Speaker 1: my understanding that they employed their own investigators. Did anybody

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Speaker 1: go there and do an assessment? Because let me tell

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Speaker 1: you what happened. I know what the conversation was. The

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Speaker 1: next day after the autopsy, there was a phone call

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Speaker 1: that was made to the p D and there was

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Speaker 1: a conversation among the detectives that started with words, oh shit,

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Speaker 1: because they realized at that moment in time that they

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Speaker 1: had screwed up at the scene. I agree with what

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Speaker 1: Tom is saying here, relative to you, who are they

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Speaker 1: to make a determination as to whether or not something

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Speaker 1: is suicide or homicide? And let me tell you one

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Speaker 1: more thing if you like that bit. When you tell

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Speaker 1: police officers at a scene, whoever made this grand diagnosis

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Speaker 1: at the scene, When you tell them at that moment

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Speaker 1: in time that this is a suicide and you make

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Speaker 1: that proclamation at the scene, guess what you see, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: elbows and tailholes headed for the door. Because at that

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Speaker 1: point their interest completely diminishes, completely diminishes. So the steps

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Speaker 1: that we normally take at a crime scene and examining

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Speaker 1: bodies and relative to evidence and at bloodstaining and all

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Speaker 1: that stuff, it goes out the door. So, yeah, they're

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Speaker 1: having a backtrack now. And this is what happened. I

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Speaker 1: can tell you this is this is where the proverbial,

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Speaker 1: you know, chain got all kinked up at this point.

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Speaker 1: There's one word to describe it, laziness. They're covering their

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Speaker 1: rear ends on this based on everything I've heard, and

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Speaker 1: there's also a particular aspect of the medical examiner findings

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Speaker 1: in addition to everything else, if you can imagine it,

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Speaker 1: that has me very puzzled. Take a listen to our

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Speaker 1: friend Amanda Duarte. When I was assigned to the homicide

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Speaker 1: unit in the DA's office, I was given the blessing

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Speaker 1: to officially look into this file and review it. When

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Speaker 1: examining the crime scene photos, several things struck the prosecutor

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Speaker 1: as odd. She's seated on the kitchen floor, most of

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Speaker 1: her upper body is leaning up against the cabin entry

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Speaker 1: alongside of one of her nostrils. There was a straight

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Speaker 1: line of blood that ran from the nostril to the

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Speaker 1: back of the ears. No drag marks, there's no dripping,

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Speaker 1: and so it was a straight line. So if you're

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Speaker 1: in a seated upright position and there's blood running horizontally,

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Speaker 1: it's impossible. That would have been physically impossible for blood

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Speaker 1: to run horizontally from the nose to the ear. Absolutely impossible.

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Speaker 1: So let me understand what's happening now. So the cops

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Speaker 1: say it's a suicide because they don't know they're twenty

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Speaker 1: plus stab wounds. They say there's no defensive wounds, even

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Speaker 1: though the leg and the arm on the right side

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Speaker 1: are covered with stab wounds, signifying to me she may

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Speaker 1: have curled up in a ball and continued to be stabbed.

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Speaker 1: That's a sort of defensive wound you get on your

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Speaker 1: legs and arms on one side because you're lying on

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Speaker 1: the other side. The next day, when all of this

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Speaker 1: comes out, it is then ruled a homicide, but under

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Speaker 1: intense pressure, the medical examiner turns flips and makes it suicide. Okay,

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Speaker 1: Stephanie Farr, Philadelphia Inquirer. What happened then? Once the case

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Speaker 1: was ruled a homicide by the Medical Examiner's office, the

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Speaker 1: Philadelphia Police Department then has to come back and start

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Speaker 1: an investigation pretty much anew according to my understanding, I

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Speaker 1: will just add that I believe that Ellen's body from

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Speaker 1: my conversations with the building manager was actually less in

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Speaker 1: that apartment till three or four in the morning. She

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Speaker 1: actually had to call police to come and take Ellen's

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Speaker 1: body to the medical Examiner's office. So police, after the

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Speaker 1: Medical Examiner's office rules that a homicide, they have to

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Speaker 1: come and redo their investigation. So they go through those steps,

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Speaker 1: and one of the major things that they ended up

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Speaker 1: relying on for their suicide finding is a neuropathology report

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Speaker 1: that was supposed to have been conducted on spinal cord

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Speaker 1: by a very famous neuropathologist here in Philadelphia, doctor Lucy

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Speaker 1: Rourke Adams. In that report, there's only a single line

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Speaker 1: in that report mentioned in Ellen's final autopsy report, and

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Speaker 1: it just says neuropathologist, doctor Lucy and then they spell

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Speaker 1: her name wrong, examined the spinal cord and concluded there's

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Speaker 1: no defect to the spinal cord. But when I contacted

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Speaker 1: doctor Rourke Adams about this report, she said that she

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Speaker 1: did not remember doing it and that if there was

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Speaker 1: no reporter or built for her services, which Guy DeAndrea

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Speaker 1: could never find in his looking through the case files,

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Speaker 1: then she would conclude that she may have not done that,

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Speaker 1: you know. So that's a huge question remaining, is that

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Speaker 1: there supposedly was this neuropathology report done on this section

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Speaker 1: of Ellen's spinal cord to determine whether the ninth stabbed

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Speaker 1: it and would have made her made impossible for her

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Speaker 1: to move, But nobody has ever seen that report. There

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Speaker 1: is no bill for that report, and the person who

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Speaker 1: supposedly conducted that report did not remember doing that examination. Well,

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Speaker 1: speaking of the spinal corps, take a listen to our

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Speaker 1: friend Amanda Duarte and accident suicide or murder Guy. DeAndrea

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Speaker 1: discovered that a portion of Ellen's spinal cord was still

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Speaker 1: at the Emmy's office. When I learned that they actually

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Speaker 1: kept a piece of Ellen's spinal column, I said that

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Speaker 1: should be examined. It was around the time that I

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Speaker 1: knew I would be leaving the Attorney's office. Once I leave,

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Speaker 1: I have no more efficient capacity or this file. DeAndrea

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Speaker 1: contacted Tom Brennan to let him know about the specimen.

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Speaker 1: Spinal column exists. It's at the Medical Examiner's office. I

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Speaker 1: have spoken to the chief Medical Examiner, who has given

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Speaker 1: a blessing bring someone in here. I contact the Medical

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Speaker 1: Examiner's office in Philadelphia get permission to have my neural

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Speaker 1: forensic pathologist come in and examine the specimen. And I

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Speaker 1: didn't hear anything for quite some time. It was months.

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Speaker 1: Tom Brennan reached back out to me and said, we

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Speaker 1: have the findings. You have two scenarios. Spinal column unpierced suicide,

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Speaker 1: spinal column pierced murder. Through findings were when the knife

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Speaker 1: entered it severed the spinal cord. Well, there's really no question,

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Speaker 1: but yet there is more evidence. Listen, the Greenberg's expert

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Speaker 1: discovered something else. From the autopsy photos. Not only did

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Speaker 1: Ellen sustain multiple bruises over her body, but there were

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Speaker 1: also other suspicious markings. Forensic pathologists found what appears to

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Speaker 1: be a scratch on the neck and finger marks, and

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Speaker 1: there was a hemorrhage found near the throat. Neural forensic

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Speaker 1: pathologists said, that's an indication of man strangulation. We know

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Speaker 1: that Ellen had extensive bruises all over her body. We

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Speaker 1: don't know how they occurred, and we frankly can't explain

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Speaker 1: them because she was not involved in physical sports and

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Speaker 1: there were no other activities that we can think of

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Speaker 1: that she was involved in that could attribute or cause

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Speaker 1: those kind of injuries. I want to know why there

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Speaker 1: was bruising in various stages of healing. That is a

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Speaker 1: question I have as a mother, Why was my daughter's

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Speaker 1: body bruised? To you, Tom Brennan, private investigator on the

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Speaker 1: Greenberg case. After it was flipped and determined to be

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Speaker 1: a suicide, what happened next, Well, that's when you know,

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Speaker 1: I I informed the Greenberg said because of all the

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Speaker 1: pushback we were getting put you know, from a political standpoint,

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Speaker 1: I said, there are some you know, we have to

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Speaker 1: get we have to get to the media and get

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Speaker 1: this out, because with the media, that's stronger than a bullet.

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Speaker 1: So that's when I contacted several journalists who were involved

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Speaker 1: initially in doing stories, and I contacted Stephanie, and Stephanie

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Speaker 1: was the only one that that call that returned my call.

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Speaker 1: And that's when Stephanie. I provided Stephanie with all the

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Speaker 1: information that I had. She went out spending a little

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Speaker 1: over a year validating everything that I gave her, and

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Speaker 1: that's when she published her story in the inquire As

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Speaker 1: a result of that. In the meantime, we were doing

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Speaker 1: the examinations with the examinations were being conducted by doctor Ross.

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Speaker 1: I had befriended Guy DeAndrea in the District Attorney's office,

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Speaker 1: and Guy got permission to review the file, and then

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Speaker 1: I subsequently I asked the Greenbergs to there was a

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Speaker 1: change in district attorneys. Mister Larry Krasner, Okay, you know

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Speaker 1: what I'm getting This all lost in the sauce. So

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Speaker 1: first suicide, then homicide, then suicide. Okay, in a nutshell,

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Speaker 1: what happened next? Did it go to a higher arbiter?

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Speaker 1: Did the Attorney general look at the state ag what

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Speaker 1: happened next. I got in touch with the District Attorney's

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Speaker 1: office mister Krasner, and he wouldn't speak to me. So

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Speaker 1: I had the Greenberg since mister Krasner was their first

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Speaker 1: attorney initially when he was had his civil practice, I

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Speaker 1: had them asked for their personal file, and they contacted

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Speaker 1: him and asked for their personal file, and the sunse

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Speaker 1: that they got I gave it to you, which is

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Speaker 1: not true. Then I asked that, and then I asked

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Speaker 1: them to file a complaint with the State Disciplinary Board,

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Speaker 1: which they did. The State Disciplinary Board came back and said,

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Speaker 1: mister Krasner said he gave it to you. At that time,

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Speaker 1: mister Krasner recused himself and forwarded the file to the

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Speaker 1: attorney State Attorney General's office the DAS file and the

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Speaker 1: Attorney general his office got involved. Following that, for a year,

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Speaker 1: or approximately a year, we heard nothing right. Prior to

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Speaker 1: Stephanie publishing her article. Getting her article published, she contacted

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Speaker 1: the Attorney General's office. Stephanie far from the Philadelphia Inquirer,

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Speaker 1: leading the charge to sign the truth alert. The media

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Speaker 1: take a listen to what Matt patrol I was CBS

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Speaker 1: three Philly has to say their attorney is using a

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Speaker 1: technology called photogrammatry to prove the case is a homicide.

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Speaker 1: Greenberg's legal team recreated her anatomical and physiological attributes, showing

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Speaker 1: it would be impossible for Greenberg to stab herself in

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Speaker 1: the back of her head multiple times. One of the

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Speaker 1: wounds was so deep it would have paralyzed her, which

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Speaker 1: means she could not have completed the remaining wounds. How

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Speaker 1: powerful is this evidence? I think it's so powerful that

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Speaker 1: it's clear to me that there's a murder remarking among

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Speaker 1: us or murderers, and ad is frightening from my vantage point.

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Speaker 1: And the attorney also tells us that photogrammatry is not

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Speaker 1: the only evidence that points to Ellen Greenberg's death as

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Speaker 1: a homicide. Stephanie Farr, Philadelphia Inquirer, What happened then? So

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Speaker 1: early and on early on in my investigation, I contacted

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Speaker 1: the Attorney General's office and told them that I was

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Speaker 1: looking into this story. They told me they were doing

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Speaker 1: their their own investigation, but I never heard from them

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Speaker 1: about any finding. So right before my article was published,

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Speaker 1: I reached back out to them to see where their

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Speaker 1: investigation stood, and according to the spokesman for the for

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Speaker 1: the AG's office, the Attorney General's Office, they provided me

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Speaker 1: a statement that said their office had done a thorough

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Speaker 1: investigation into the case and that a search history from

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Speaker 1: Ellen's computer and records from her cell phone indicated that

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Speaker 1: she had, you know, done searches on her computer for

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Speaker 1: terms related to suicide. Now, that information directly contradicts information

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Speaker 1: in the in the Medical Examiner's report from twenty eleven

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Speaker 1: that said that investigators searched her computers and found nothing

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Speaker 1: indicative of suicide. So, Stephanie Farr, Philadelphia Inquirer, you're telling

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Speaker 1: me that at the time police revie her computer and

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Speaker 1: found nothing regarding searches for suicide or anything to indicate

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Speaker 1: she had committed suicide. But then later you learned the

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Speaker 1: AG says, oh, no, no, no, we found evident searches

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Speaker 1: of suicide exactly exactly, And they could not explain to

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Speaker 1: me the discrepancy there, you know, when I asked about it.

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Speaker 1: You know, why does the report from twenty eleven indicate that,

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Speaker 1: you know, her computers were searched and nothing was found,

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Speaker 1: while your report seven years later, seventy years later, says

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Speaker 1: that things were found and according to the spokesman for

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Speaker 1: the Attorney General's office, he said, we cannot say if

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Speaker 1: anyone police or prosecutor ever looked at the computers, even

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Speaker 1: though it's indicated in the reports from twenty eleven that

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Speaker 1: he did. Back to the Greenbergs Josh, her father joining

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Speaker 1: us along with her mom, Sandy Josh, isn't it true

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Speaker 1: that you guys hired your own own expert who found

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Speaker 1: nothing on her computer relating to death or suicide? That

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Speaker 1: is true since the Attorney General was saying his thorough

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Speaker 1: investigation and putting such an emphasis on this, the FBI

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Speaker 1: had already told the Philadelphia police they found nothing. We

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Speaker 1: hired a forensic computer expert and they found nothing. What

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Speaker 1: they found, they found nothing that Ellen had looked up

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Speaker 1: suicide or had a fetish or interest in suicide, either

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Speaker 1: none hurting or hurting. So we really feel that the

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Speaker 1: whole thing the Attorney General did was bogus. But I

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Speaker 1: don't understand their motivation. And isn't it true you asked

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Speaker 1: and asked and asked to see the OAG Office of

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Speaker 1: Attorney Generals report that they did the computer forensic search,

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Speaker 1: and you couldn't get it, couldn't get it couldn't get it.

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Speaker 1: They still haven't produced it. We this day, I'm we

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Speaker 1: approached the Attorney General, we had a former Attorney General

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Speaker 1: for the Commonwealth working with us. We offered the Attorney

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Speaker 1: General's office all of our information, our mountain of evidence.

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Speaker 1: But I think something that I'd like Tom to talk

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Speaker 1: about is a classic pivotal meeting that he had with

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Speaker 1: two former Philadelphia District Attorney assistant district attorneys who now

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Speaker 1: worked for the Attorney General. Tom Um when I, when

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00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 1: I learned of these um findings on the searches, we

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00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 1: arranged for a meeting with the Attorney General's office, and

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Speaker 1: it's it's this is almost comical. The same individuals who

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Speaker 1: were in the DA's office at the time this incident occurred,

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Speaker 1: or the same individuals who are now in the Attorney

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00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 1: General's office and supposedly conducted this thorough investigation of theirs. Okay,

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00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,160
Speaker 1: But in the course of things, I had a meeting

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Speaker 1: with the supervising Attorney of the Criminal Investigation Division for

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Speaker 1: the Attorney General's Office and the Attorney General's chief of staff.

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Speaker 1: And in the in the course of that meeting, they

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Speaker 1: mentioned that they're finding and I asked them when when

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Speaker 1: was the tennis performed? They couldn't. They couldn't reply. I

408
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Speaker 1: asked them who did it? Could they identify the forensic

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Speaker 1: analysts for the FBI that did it? No, no response. Um,

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Speaker 1: I asked them several questions and I didn't get a

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Speaker 1: response for any of any of my questions. They asked me,

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Speaker 1: they said, why are you asking me these questions? And

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Speaker 1: I said, well, I know where those computers have been

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Speaker 1: since September of old five, so when in the hell

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Speaker 1: did you people conduct this examination? And they no response.

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Speaker 1: Then two days later, the former attorney general that was

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Speaker 1: working with us received a call from the chief of staff.

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Speaker 1: Then she said that she told this, She told the

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Speaker 1: attorney general, that former attorney general that she informed the

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Speaker 1: senior Attorney general that was in charge of the investigation

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Speaker 1: to supply us with a copy of their report. To date,

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Speaker 1: we still haven't gotten a copy of that report. Isn't

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Speaker 1: it true? As a matter of fact, your forensic analysis,

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Speaker 1: your expert forensic analysis, and the FBI analysis both refute

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Speaker 1: the Attorney General's conclusion regarding searches on Ellen's computer had

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Speaker 1: any obsession with death or suicide leading up to your death.

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Speaker 1: Both your independent expert and the FBI analysis are diametrically

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00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 1: opposed to the Attorney general's analysis. Is that correct? Tom

429
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 1: Brennan's correct. That is correct. Let me ask you, Sandy

430
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 1: and Josh, the idea of pursuing a lawsuit over the

431
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 1: medical Examiner's suicide ruling. A Philadelphia judge ruled that Ellen's

432
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 1: family with us today, Josh and Sandy can move forward

433
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 1: with a lawsuit against the Medical Examiner's office to remove

434
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 1: the suicide ruling as her official cause of death. What

435
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 1: led you to that lawsuit? Josh Greenberg? Justice for Ellen?

436
00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: Who wants the truth? I don't know, and that's the

437
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 1: only way I can answer your question. I'm sorry, Nancy,

438
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 1: it's more involved. I apologize, but this makes no sense.

439
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 1: This is total bs. There are a number of simple things.

440
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 1: I know we talked about technology and professional things, but

441
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 1: just some simple things out there that we didn't even mention.

442
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,959
Speaker 1: The fact that our forensic pathologists found that there were

443
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 1: two types of knife wounds, a smooth and as serrated.

444
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 1: The fact that three months, three years, excuse me, three

445
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 1: months after the case was closed, somebody in the police

446
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 1: department sent the photos to another forensic pathologist, in Florida,

447
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 1: and she couldn't believe that they had said this was

448
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 1: a suicide. And Tom, just by happenstance, serendipity, happened to

449
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 1: be talking to her and she told the story. I

450
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: don't know what else. There are other things. The note

451
00:31:55,280 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 1: in the autopsy by doctor Rourke bs. Doctor Rourke never

452
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: saw that. We met the fraudulent paragraph. We met with

453
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 1: the medical examiner and we questioned him, does doctor Rourke

454
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 1: the day before send in a bill and a report

455
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 1: on a case? Yes day after she send it? Doctor

456
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 1: Rourke is noted, And I mean it's in the strictest

457
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 1: and nicest way I can put it. If you ask

458
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 1: doctor Rourke what time it is, it's going to be

459
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 1: part of an itemized bill. She's going to give you

460
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 1: Doctor Rock bills very strictly. But it's all BS and

461
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 1: the Attorney general is BS two and Nancy, what you

462
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 1: have to understand when it comes to the technical part

463
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 1: of this investigation. Though the fiance's laptop, the victim's laptop,

464
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 1: personal laptop, and her work laptop in her cell phone

465
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 1: were removed by a prominent attorney uncle the morning of

466
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 1: the twenty seventh of January, when the autopsy was being performed,

467
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 1: the uncle and his son entered the apartment with the

468
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 1: guys of we have to get a suit for the

469
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 1: fiance for the funeral. But at that time they removed

470
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: all of those items. So in the court of law

471
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 1: anything and the police never never got access to those

472
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 1: items until the twenty nine So as far as a

473
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 1: chain of evidence is concerned, would the court accept anything

474
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 1: that came off those came off those items. Yeah, and

475
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 1: that's what the Attorney general is trying to use as rationale. Well,

476
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 1: you know what, you can contest the chain of custody,

477
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 1: but that does not necessarily indicate that item will be

478
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 1: thrown out of evidence, right, Darryl. I mean you can

479
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 1: contest the chain, absolutely, and that doesn't mean that that

480
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: contest is going to be successful. Absolutely, you can complain,

481
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 1: But what we really need is what the forensic evidence

482
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 1: says that was in the computer. Whether they were physically

483
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,839
Speaker 1: removed the computer is one thing. Whether or not they

484
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 1: were able to bleach the items in the computer that

485
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:23,720
Speaker 1: is clearly another. Well, I have a question to Ellen's mom, Sandy.

486
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:27,800
Speaker 1: The other side keeps throwing up a text, a particular text.

487
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 1: Did they say Ellen sent to you quote, I'm starting

488
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 1: the mad I know you don't understand, but I can't

489
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 1: keep living with feeling this way. Did you get a

490
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: text like that? I suppose I did. Did anybody ever

491
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 1: think she meant living in that relationship? I thought it

492
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 1: was I can't keep all like this. I thought it

493
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:52,359
Speaker 1: meant it was in reference to how she felt on

494
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 1: the medication. Ah, I see what she means or not

495
00:34:55,440 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 1: taking the medication. That aside, that text, it could be

496
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 1: construed in so many different ways. I thought it man

497
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 1: that I can't take the relationship anymore. But it could

498
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 1: be that aside that has nothing to do with a

499
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 1: physical aspect of the autopsy and what the findings were.

500
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 1: I could write a text like that in a moment

501
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 1: of anger about my husband, I can't keep living like this,

502
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 1: and then the house burns, damn. But that doesn't mean

503
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,760
Speaker 1: I struck the match? Does it? Because I wrote that text?

504
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 1: I think that's Josh, go ahead, that's it, Nancy. If

505
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 1: Ellen had put sandwich boards on and walked around rittenhouse

506
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 1: square saying what this says was and then you go

507
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:48,919
Speaker 1: look at the crime scene, it's incongruent that she committed suicide,

508
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 1: has nothing to deal with it. So what if anything

509
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 1: can be done now, Josh, outside the lawsuit that you

510
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 1: were bringing in, what's the status of the lawsuit? Well,

511
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,720
Speaker 1: I believe we have a court date. I believe Philadelphia

512
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:11,359
Speaker 1: has tried to prevent us from having a court date

513
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,280
Speaker 1: and they were turned down. I believe we are trying

514
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 1: to depose witnesses, like the medical examiner who makes an

515
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,359
Speaker 1: appointment and then canceled appointment saying he has things to do.

516
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:27,760
Speaker 1: I believe we're being stonewalled like we have for ten years.

517
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 1: January twenty sixth I'm bad with dates. January twenty six,

518
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:37,720
Speaker 1: twenty eleven was ten years after Ellen's death, and aside

519
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 1: from time, there's been an emotional effort, immense financial effort

520
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 1: to bring the truth out. We're not just doing this

521
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 1: for Ellen, Yes, Ellen, justice for Ellan, but there are

522
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:53,280
Speaker 1: other families and other people who have suffered this type

523
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 1: of treatment. I'm going to call it from political officials.

524
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,319
Speaker 1: We don't know the why, but we know that we

525
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:07,279
Speaker 1: have a mountain of evidence, and we know that a

526
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:11,799
Speaker 1: mountain millions of people in this world have reviewed this

527
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 1: case as not experts necessarily and don't believe this was

528
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:20,879
Speaker 1: a suicide. So we don't know why, and we don't

529
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 1: know how, but they are trying to stone Wallace and

530
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 1: we're not happen words of my wife, we're not working anywhere.

531
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 1: Oh how I want justice, And again let me point

532
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 1: out that no one has been named a PI person

533
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 1: of chure is much less a suspect in this case.

534
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:48,880
Speaker 1: No one we wait as just as unfals. And I

535
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:51,360
Speaker 1: guarantee you, and that case goes to trial, I'm going

536
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:55,800
Speaker 1: to be on the front road by God, Nancy Grace

537
00:37:56,160 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 1: Killers amongst us, signing off, goodbye friend,