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Speaker 1: Welcome back, everybody. It's semester three.

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Speaker 2: We have been gone so long, but let me tell you,

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Speaker 2: we have missed you so much, and we have thought

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Speaker 2: of you every step of the way.

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Speaker 1: Right and you guys have been in our DM saying

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Speaker 1: the same thing. So we're just happy to be back.

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Speaker 1: A lot has happened in the first half of twenty twenty.

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Speaker 1: Six months in twenty twenty is the equivalent of ten

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Speaker 1: years in actual time, So congratulations to all of you

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Speaker 1: for making it this far.

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Speaker 2: Now that we're back, we're ready to dive right into

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Speaker 2: what has been going on. The main thing that's happening

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Speaker 2: in my life and on the timeline is Black lives matter, Yes,

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Speaker 2: and that's all black lives mattering. And you know, I

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Speaker 2: think a lot of people have been protesting in person.

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Speaker 2: Some people are protesting having digital efforts where they're spreading

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Speaker 2: information or they're donating or raising money or providing supplies

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Speaker 2: for other folks who are protesting. One of the things

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Speaker 2: that I've seen is people are asking, how do I

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Speaker 2: get involved? Don't know where to start, And I think

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Speaker 2: the key is to understand that white supremacy and systemic

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Speaker 2: racism are widespread. So it exists wherever you are. You

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Speaker 2: don't have to look far to get involved, and you

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Speaker 2: really can start writing your own backyard.

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Speaker 1: And our backyard is science. So we're pulling it up

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Speaker 1: by the route and examining the long intertwining history of

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Speaker 1: science and racism. I'm TT and I'm Zakijah and from

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Speaker 1: Spotify Studios. This is Dope Labs.

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Speaker 2: You hit the nail on the hill. You know you

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Speaker 2: said this episode we are going to be looking at

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Speaker 2: the intertwining history of science and racism, and I think

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Speaker 2: we really got to tell people how we got here.

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Speaker 1: So in twenty twenty, some of the deaths of black

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Speaker 1: people that have made national news. It started with a

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Speaker 1: mod Art who's a black man that was gunned down

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Speaker 1: by two white men while he was out for a run.

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Speaker 1: Breonna Taylor who was shot by police who entered her

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Speaker 1: home at night and it turned out to be the

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Speaker 1: wrong home. Christian Cooper who was confronted by a white

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Speaker 1: woman in Central Park who threatened to call the police

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Speaker 1: on him. George Floyd, who was murdered by the police

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Speaker 1: for allegedly using a counterfeit twenty dollars bill trans women,

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Speaker 1: Dominique Remy Fels and Rya Milton, and most recently Rashard Brooks,

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Speaker 1: who was killed by the police after he fell asleep

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Speaker 1: in his car at a Wendy's.

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Speaker 2: And there are countless other victims who don't get media

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Speaker 2: attention and we may never know their names. So tc.

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Speaker 2: How does this all connect to our backyard science? Why

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Speaker 2: are we focusing on racism and science specifically?

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Speaker 1: I think for the simple fact that a lot of

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Speaker 1: people don't know it still exists, or know the extent

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Speaker 1: that it even existed in the first place. Because I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of people think that signed is so

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Speaker 1: objective and like it's rooted in fact. So how could

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Speaker 1: racism permeate the scientific community if we're all like holding

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Speaker 1: this this beacon of light up, saying here is our

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Speaker 1: facts and there's nothing else that's influencing it. But that's

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Speaker 1: not true.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the thing we know is that scientists are people.

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Speaker 2: Science isn't done in a vacuum, and it's always swayed

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Speaker 2: by the politics of the time. You know, even when

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Speaker 2: we think about this is not just a case for racism,

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Speaker 2: this or this is not just the case for what

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Speaker 2: we consider the interaction between race and science. Even as

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Speaker 2: we think about what is the next foray of science?

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Speaker 2: If you think back to stem cell therapy and then

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Speaker 2: the US government put a clamp on that, right, and

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Speaker 2: so you see how politics influenced science. This is not

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Speaker 2: new and so we're gonna hold up our well, I

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Speaker 2: don't know if we're going back in time. So it's

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Speaker 2: an old school Anthony van Luhenhook micro scope and they're

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Speaker 2: going to peer right into there and see what happened

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Speaker 2: back in the day and how those things have effects

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Speaker 2: on us right now.

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Speaker 1: What's the key is saying is we're gonna live real,

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Speaker 1: real close.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 1: What we know is is a system is often dictated

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Speaker 1: by its roots. So here we're digging up the soil

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Speaker 1: to see how the theories and actions of the past

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Speaker 1: led to us having tainted fruits today.

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Speaker 2: So let's get into the recitation.

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Speaker 1: So what do we know and what do we want

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Speaker 1: to know?

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Speaker 2: I think we want to all start at the same

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Speaker 2: place about understanding race. Like if you stop and think

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Speaker 2: what are the races?

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Speaker 1: Also ask yourself how many are there? And do those

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Speaker 1: categories that you think our race encompass everyone? Yeah, the

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Speaker 1: answers probably know.

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Speaker 2: There are three main points we really want to think

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Speaker 2: about to help us really frame how we're what we

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Speaker 2: know about race, and how we'll use that information moving

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Speaker 2: forward to understand the intertwined nature of race and science

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Speaker 2: over time. So some of you may already know these

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Speaker 2: things and some of you may not. Either way, we're

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Speaker 2: not making any assumptions. First, there's no such thing as

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Speaker 2: biological race. Genetics shows us there are no discrete categories

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Speaker 2: of race.

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Speaker 1: Right, so there's no single gene that only appears in

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Speaker 1: one quote unquote race that doesn't appear in another quote

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Speaker 1: unquote race. Race is not a biological category. What most

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Speaker 1: of us think as race is actually culture and language,

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Speaker 1: and it's been long proven that biologically there are no

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Speaker 1: distinct quote unquote races as we understand the term now.

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Speaker 2: The second point is we're all members of the same species.

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Speaker 2: We're all Homo sapiens, and our roots can be traced

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Speaker 2: back to Africa. Those visible differences that you see are

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Speaker 2: due to founder effects, where a small group moves from

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Speaker 2: the larger population and they lose some of that genetic diversity.

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Speaker 1: And the third thing is that wherever there are multiple

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Speaker 1: groups of people and one group is oppressing another group,

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Speaker 1: there is a system in place so it doesn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: have to be race related. It could be religion, class, politics.

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Speaker 1: And what we find is is that history often repeats

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Speaker 1: itself and racism is one of those systems. And even

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Speaker 1: though we know there is no biological basis, it still

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Speaker 1: affects us because it affects our interactions day to day.

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Speaker 2: So now that we've all set the playing field here,

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Speaker 2: we're all working with the same set of information, let's

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Speaker 2: jump into what we want to know this episode.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that I want to know is

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Speaker 1: when did the concept of race and race science first originate?

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Speaker 2: Whose idea was this? And then I'm wondering, if we

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Speaker 2: know all of these things, like race is a social

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Speaker 2: construct and it's been debunked, why are people still looking

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Speaker 2: for these same types of groupings using these artificial categories.

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Speaker 2: Is it just the guilding of time? Have we all

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Speaker 2: been brainwashed?

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Speaker 1: And I want to know what are some of the

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Speaker 1: foundational scientific theories in science where race like played a part.

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Speaker 1: Who are some of the major players in science whose

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Speaker 1: work was predicated on race science?

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Speaker 2: Ooh, you're naming names. One of the classic examples of

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Speaker 2: racism and science is eugenics, and eugenics is a system

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Speaker 2: of ideas and practices aiming to genetically quote unquote purify

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Speaker 2: a population. I want to know who were the early

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Speaker 2: proponents of eugenics and what were their motivations.

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Speaker 1: I love that question. I also want to know where

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Speaker 1: do we see racism in science today? Is I feel

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Speaker 1: like a lot of people are going to say, oh,

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Speaker 1: that must have been during another time when people, you know,

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Speaker 1: weren't as informed and we didn't have the Internet. But

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Speaker 1: I know for a fact it still exists today, and

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Speaker 1: I want to know where it is.

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Speaker 2: Just like we look back and shame on eugenics in

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Speaker 2: fifty years, what will we look back on today and say, oh,

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Speaker 2: my gosh, I can't believe that was happening.

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Speaker 1: Yes, because I think that looking back on myself, I

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Speaker 1: wonder why I tweezed my eyebrows so much.

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Speaker 2: Those pictures of you and undergrad I understood it. I

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Speaker 2: too tweeze my eyebrows as thin as any.

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Speaker 1: I had six eyebrow hairs on each side, and I

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Speaker 1: thought I was killing it.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm glad they made it back then.

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Speaker 1: Quarantine they all back.

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Speaker 2: All the hairs are back, okay. And I think the

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Speaker 2: final question is are we doomed to repeat ourselves over

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Speaker 2: and over. Understanding this, what can the scientific community do

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Speaker 2: to change course?

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Speaker 1: Let's get into the dissection. This episode, we're talking to

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Speaker 1: Angela Saani, a science journalist who tackles the issue of

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Speaker 1: racism and science, exploring how the two have co mingled

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Speaker 1: over the years.

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Speaker 3: I'm Angela Sani. I'm a science journalist based in the

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Speaker 3: United Kingdom, and I write books really that look under

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Speaker 3: the skin of science, so exploring the reasons why people

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Speaker 3: study what they do, what research tells us, the impact

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Speaker 3: of funding and bias and politics on science, looking at

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Speaker 3: both gender and more recently race.

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Speaker 2: So to start the dissection, it's important for us to

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Speaker 2: figure out how and where race science and the concept

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Speaker 2: of race started.

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Speaker 3: Race, of course, as a word has been around for

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Speaker 3: a very long time. The meaning that it has and

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Speaker 3: the way that we use it now is obviously not

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Speaker 3: the way that people have always used it in history.

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Speaker 2: In Superior Angela notes early uses of the term race,

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Speaker 2: dating back to the fifteen hundreds, were used to refer

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Speaker 2: to groups that were related, so a family or tribe.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't necessarily tied to physical characteristics, which are literally

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Speaker 2: skin deep.

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Speaker 3: So the way that we use it now to define

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Speaker 3: races like black, white, brown, or you know these kind

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Speaker 3: of big continental groups is relatively recent and it dates

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Speaker 3: from around the time of the European Enlightenment, when naturalists

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Speaker 3: and thinkers were starting to categorize. This is in Europe.

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Speaker 3: European thinkers were starting to categorize the natural world. They

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Speaker 3: were looking at flora and fauna and drawing up these taxonomies,

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Speaker 3: and they did the same with people.

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Speaker 1: The Age of Enlightenment in Europe was from the seventeenth

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Speaker 1: to nineteenth centuries and it was a time in Europe

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Speaker 1: when a lot of intellectual and philosophical advancements were being made.

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Speaker 1: Modern sociology, politics, and science emerged during this time, and

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Speaker 1: specifically in the scientific field, the biological taxonomy was developed.

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Speaker 1: Taxonomy is the science of naming, defining, and classifying groups

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Speaker 1: of biological organisms on the basis of shared characteristics.

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Speaker 2: If you have some background in biology, you may remember

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Speaker 2: the taxonomic classifications of genus and species. This is a

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Speaker 2: two name system, so think Homo sapiens for humans. That

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Speaker 2: was ushered in by Carl Linnaeus. It's a well known

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Speaker 2: and recognized system. We still use it today. While I

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Speaker 2: was taught that Linnaeus was the father of taxonomy. I

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Speaker 2: did not learn that he was the pioneer of race

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Speaker 2: as a categorization for humans. Did you know that, No, girl,

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Speaker 2: He started with four races based on geographical location and

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Speaker 2: skin color.

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Speaker 1: And other scientists built on what Linaea was teaching. And

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Speaker 1: you have to remember that we're talking about way way

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Speaker 1: back in the day, so you couldn't just hop on

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Speaker 1: a flight and check out Asia or check out South

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Speaker 1: America to see what the people were like. Information was

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Speaker 1: being exchanged about people purely on hearsay, and for a

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Speaker 1: lot of scientists of that time, it was a lot

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Speaker 1: of guessing about what people were like in other countries.

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Speaker 2: So we have these categories that were developed many, many

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Speaker 2: years ago. Since then, we understand that race has no

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Speaker 2: scientific basis. So remember at the top of the episode

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Speaker 2: we talked about that, and the question now is why

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Speaker 2: does race still rule everything around us?

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Speaker 1: Bream.

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Speaker 3: The weird thing is that we still live with these

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Speaker 3: categories now, we still use them. We have laid these

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Speaker 3: enormous sets of meaning on top of these very what

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Speaker 3: will always arbitrary categories and given them a power that

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Speaker 3: they never had to begin with. So the way those

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Speaker 3: categories were defined in the first place were very much

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Speaker 3: informed by the politics of the time, by slavery, by colonialism,

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Speaker 3: by this belief in European superiority, and the categories themselves

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Speaker 3: formed a hierarchy in the minds of these European thinkers

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Speaker 3: in which white male Europeans were at the top and

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Speaker 3: everybody else was kind of slotted below, and that became

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Speaker 3: the basis on which modern day Western science was done.

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Speaker 2: Considering all of this, we have to ask, why do

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Speaker 2: people still believe race is a thing even though it

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Speaker 2: was debunked decades ago?

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Speaker 1: Is it because there was something that was said over

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Speaker 1: and over again for a long time and people just

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Speaker 1: accepted it.

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Speaker 2: Angela explained to us why it's so difficult for people

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Speaker 2: to change their.

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Speaker 3: Minds, even though in the last seventy years or so,

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Speaker 3: scientists have shown quite categorically and it's very easy to

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Speaker 3: do this because, like I said, these categories were arbitrary

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Speaker 3: to begin with, so it's not you know, it doesn't

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Speaker 3: take a genius to then unpick the biology and figure

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Speaker 3: out that it's nonsense. That even though scientists have done that,

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Speaker 3: they still have so much power even now because of

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Speaker 3: their political value. They still have political value. There are

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Speaker 3: still people who would like to be able to make

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Speaker 3: the case that the inequality that we see in society

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Speaker 3: is natural, that it's not because of historical factors, that

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Speaker 3: it's there, because it was always there and it always

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Speaker 3: will be there.

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Speaker 1: There are similar systems that uphold these hierarchies, like there's

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Speaker 1: class in the UK, there's caste in India, and religion

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Speaker 1: well everywhere all over the world.

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Speaker 2: So now we have an understanding of the earliest iterations

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Speaker 2: of race to classify groups of people and how those

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Speaker 2: classifications upheld the politics or agendas of European men during

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Speaker 2: the Enlightenment age. And we know that this is when

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Speaker 2: Western science, you know, as we know it was born.

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Speaker 2: So you got little baby science in the crib and

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Speaker 2: its favorite plush stuffed toy is racism.

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Speaker 1: Yes, so race is that little baby lullaby to go

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Speaker 1: to sleep at night.

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Speaker 2: So considering this scene at the birth of Western science,

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Speaker 2: we asked about some of the foundational scientific theories and

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Speaker 2: where a race might have come into play.

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Speaker 3: If you take into account the fact that modern day

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Speaker 3: Western science, Enlightenment science was predicated on this belief that

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Speaker 3: there were races number one, which we know now biologically

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Speaker 3: is not the case, and number two that there was

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Speaker 3: a hierarchy between these races that meant that some people

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Speaker 3: were in some ways even less human than others, certainly

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Speaker 3: less intelligent. In the nineteenth century, the idea came along

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Speaker 3: with Darwin that some were even maybe less evolved than others.

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Speaker 3: So if you take that as a starting point on

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Speaker 3: which the science of human difference is built, so biology,

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Speaker 3: all of biology is predicated on that assumption for at

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Speaker 3: least the first hundred to two hundred years. Then everything

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Speaker 3: that came up afterwards was guided by that.

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Speaker 1: And if you're thinking, well, surely they saw the error

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Speaker 1: in their ways, not really.

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Speaker 3: In the nineteenth century when science became professionalized, these ideas

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Speaker 3: didn't go away. All they did was they became more

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Speaker 3: codified and layers of meaning became built around them.

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Speaker 2: It was the case then and it's still the case today.

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Speaker 2: Using scientific language to describe something or to validate your

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Speaker 2: idea or belief always makes people take you just a

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Speaker 2: touch more seriously.

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Speaker 1: Right, Not many people will argue with someone who is

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Speaker 1: purporting information that is quote unquote scientific fact.

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Speaker 2: Race science at the time lent credibility to these awful,

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Speaker 2: incorrect ideas about superiority. And one of the well known

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Speaker 2: and documented executions of these legitimized sinister ideas is eugenics.

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Speaker 3: Eugenics really, for me, is the kind of manifestation or

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Speaker 3: almost the technology that comes out of race science, if

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Speaker 3: you want to think of it that way, because it's

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Speaker 3: essentially saying we know that these or we think we

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Speaker 3: know that these differences exist. Now, if some people are inferior,

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Speaker 3: genetically inferior to other people, then what can we do

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Speaker 3: about that? How do we improve the human stock or

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Speaker 3: the quality of the race? And Francis Golton, who was

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Speaker 3: a cousin of Childs Darwin.

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Speaker 1: Like his actual cousin, not his play cousin, like me

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Speaker 1: as a kia, was.

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Speaker 3: The man who came up with this idea, among many things.

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Speaker 3: He also coined the term nature versus nurture, which I

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Speaker 3: think is one of the worst races in scientific history,

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Speaker 3: because nature and nurture are not two separate things, they're

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Speaker 3: completely intertwined. Anyway. That aside, he also coined the term

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Speaker 3: eugenics and came up with this principle that people superior people,

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Speaker 3: So the smartest and most beautiful should be allowed to

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Speaker 3: breed more, and those who are inferior should be discouraged

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Speaker 3: from breeding. And if we do that, then we can

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Speaker 3: with the stock of in his case of British race.

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Speaker 2: And you have to ask who says the standard, who's

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Speaker 2: considered superior, who's the smartest by what measure? What's beautiful? Right?

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Speaker 1: Is it big eyes? Is it freckles? Is it long legs?

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Speaker 1: I know what you're thinking, I'm describing my friend as

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Speaker 1: a kia.

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Speaker 2: Those are moles, not freckles. I'll take it.

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Speaker 1: But it's all really subjective.

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Speaker 2: And let's be really clear. These ideas were popular. This

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Speaker 2: wasn't just at the fringe the outsiders thinking oh yes,

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Speaker 2: eugenics is the way to go.

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Speaker 3: It was completely mainstream on the right, on the left.

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Speaker 3: If anything, Socialists were more excited about it than anyone.

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Speaker 3: Virginia Wolf burned Shore. You know our big kind of

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Speaker 3: intellectual progressive heroes, many of them were eugenesis and very

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Speaker 3: firmly believed in this idea and we're behind it.

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Speaker 1: And eugenics was not like a few years of bad behavior.

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Speaker 1: It was more like seventy to eighty years. We'll put

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Speaker 1: some resources on our website that can give you the

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Speaker 1: deep history. We could spend an entire episode on this.

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Speaker 2: Eugenics was first used to create the quote unquote perfect family.

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Speaker 2: This means having families without disabilities or deformities. And the

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Speaker 2: idea was that they would just eliminate these individuals that

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Speaker 2: they deemed unfit again subjective. And those efforts weren't only

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Speaker 2: in Britain. They were quickly adopted by scientists in the

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Speaker 2: United States. Not just ideas but action.

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Speaker 1: When we talk about eugenics, I think the first things

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Speaker 1: that pop in the folk's mind are Hitler, the Nazi Party,

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Speaker 1: and the Holocaust. But Hitler actually took his cue from

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Speaker 1: American eugenics.

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Speaker 3: Sterilizations in the US were adopted as policy in many states,

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Speaker 3: and they then became an inspiration for Adolf Hitler.

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Speaker 2: And this didn't stop in the nineteen thirties. After the war,

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Speaker 2: these scientists just rebranded, you know, like favorite influencers.

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Speaker 1: All Right, we're gonna take a break, and when we

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Speaker 1: come back, we'll look at racism and science Today. Hey, y'all,

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Speaker 1: it's TZI and I wanted to let you know that

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Speaker 1: I had the pleasure of co hosting Season six of

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Speaker 1: the podcast Dissect with Cole Kushna, and it is out

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Speaker 1: right now. Each season of Dissect examines a single album,

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Speaker 1: forensically dissecting one song per episode. Season six takes on

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Speaker 1: Beyonce's monumental visual album Lemonade. Through in depth musical and

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Speaker 1: lyrical analysis, we follow Beyonce on her transcendent journey from

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Speaker 1: subjugation to freedom. In past seasons, Cole has dissected Kanye

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Speaker 1: Kendrick Lamar, Laurence Hill, and a lot of your other

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Speaker 1: favorite artists. So make sure to check out Dissect on

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Speaker 1: Spotify today because great art deserves more than a swipe.

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Speaker 2: We're back and we've already looked at racism in the past,

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Speaker 2: but what about racism and science today? We asked our

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Speaker 2: guest expert Angela Sani, what will we look back on

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Speaker 2: in fifty years and say, ugh.

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Speaker 1: And we're not talking about those Janco genes you were

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Speaker 1: wearing during that emo period of your life in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and two.

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Speaker 3: I see it woven right through medicine. I mean so

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Speaker 3: many medical studies that take race as a biological variable

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Speaker 3: completely inappropriately. I mean it happens routinely that you know,

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Speaker 3: in my view, I wrote this for a piece for

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Speaker 3: the medical journal Lancet the other week. Medicine is almost

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Speaker 3: keeping race science alive.

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Speaker 1: And Angela tells us it's not just direct action that's

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Speaker 1: a threat either. It's also people turning a blind eye.

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Speaker 3: You know, it comes down to what are you willing

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Speaker 3: to excuse? When you're not the victim of somebody else's hatred,

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Speaker 3: then it's quite easy, actually to excuse that kind of behavior.

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Speaker 3: When you are the victim, it's impossible. And I think

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Speaker 3: that's the problem. Science looks the way it does because

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Speaker 3: all the people that excuse that kind of behavior stay

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Speaker 3: and all the people who can't leave, And that's why

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Speaker 3: science looks the way it does.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that is so true. There are a lot of

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Speaker 2: people in the scientific community that look like well us.

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Speaker 1: Yes, the scientific community is not a reflection of the

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Speaker 1: general population.

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Speaker 2: People are so invested in things being innate, and I

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Speaker 2: think that lets us get comfortable with the systems that

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Speaker 2: exist and continue to marginalize different groups. Are we doomed

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Speaker 2: to repeat ourselves over and over? I really hope not.

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Speaker 3: It does feel that way, and I certainly feel that

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Speaker 3: way sometimes. I mean, the number of my book came

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Speaker 3: out about a year ago, and the number of times

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Speaker 3: have had to explain from first principles why race is

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Speaker 3: a social construct, even to journal editors and science editors

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Speaker 3: and scientists, again and again and again. And what frustrates

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Speaker 3: me is that this was debunked decades ago. You know,

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Speaker 3: I'm not the first person to come along and say this.

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Speaker 3: I'm maybe the ten thousandth person to come along and

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Speaker 3: say this. Lawanton did it, Gould did it. Even before that,

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Speaker 3: there were so many scientists that did it, and there

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Speaker 3: have been so many more since. There have been declarations

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Speaker 3: made by genetic groups all over the world. This is

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Speaker 3: a mainstream scientific consensus now on race is a social construct,

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Speaker 3: and yet we have to keep justifying that. And because

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Speaker 3: we have to always start from these first principles, whenever

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Speaker 3: we have this conversation, we never move forward.

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Speaker 1: So, speaking of moving forward, what can the scientific community

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Speaker 1: do to break this repetitive cycle.

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Speaker 3: One, I do think representation matters, just because then you

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Speaker 3: don't get silos of viewpoints, and we know historically that

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Speaker 3: silos of viewpoints lead to mistakes in science. That's how

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Speaker 3: race science emerged in the first place. That's how sexism

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Speaker 3: and science emerged in the first place. The other thing

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Speaker 3: is to break down hierarchies. I think this kind of

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Speaker 3: strict and immense power that people at the top have,

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Speaker 3: and most of these people at the top ten to

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Speaker 3: be white men. If you concentrate power in one person

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Speaker 3: in any situation, they have more opportunity to abuse it,

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Speaker 3: and they do abuse it. We know that because we

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Speaker 3: are now in the last couple of years with me

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Speaker 3: too particularly, we are getting stories of harassment and discrimination

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Speaker 3: coming out. We need to have mechanisms that allow people

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Speaker 3: to complain without fear of losing anything. People need to

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Speaker 3: be held responsible for their bad actions. I would like

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Speaker 3: to One of my big things at the moment is

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Speaker 3: pushing for the teaching of history and social science within

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Speaker 3: scientific education. If we had a better idea of where

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Speaker 3: our ideas come from, then we are a better placed

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Speaker 3: to correct them when we know that mistakes are being made.

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Speaker 3: And I would also like to see the social sciences

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Speaker 3: and science and biology in particular working together a lot

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Speaker 3: more so that we can understand the social determinants of

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Speaker 3: inequality as alongside biological factors.

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Speaker 1: This is tough, yeah, I think what's difficult for people

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Speaker 1: to grasp and understand is that this is something that

441
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 1: isn't actual science, and grasping the fact that, you know,

442
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 1: part of our scientific journey as science was being developed,

443
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,679
Speaker 1: isn't rooted in something that's objective. It was rooted in

444
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 1: something that actually wasn't fact, and to push the agendas

445
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,440
Speaker 1: of a subset of people who wanted to explain their

446
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,159
Speaker 1: superiority or what they felt like was superiority. And I

447
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 1: think for most people when they think about the scientific community,

448
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 1: it's just not a part of their train of thought.

449
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,399
Speaker 1: They make those assumptions that everything that's coming out of

450
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 1: the scientific community has to be fact because that's what

451
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 1: we're charged with, being objective in a world of subjectivity.

452
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 2: And you know, the crazy thing is that it's not

453
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 2: just biology. You know, I knew some of these things

454
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:05,159
Speaker 2: from my thesis work. You know, I was really heavy

455
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 2: into DNA repair I mutagensis, so I already knew like

456
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,400
Speaker 2: James Watson and what he was saying, But I didn't

457
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:15,359
Speaker 2: know it was statistics and comparative anatomy. I didn't know

458
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 2: it was behavioral genetics all of these other fields too,

459
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 2: And so you can start to see how widespread and

460
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 2: prevalent it is. I think it also is tough, right,

461
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 2: because sometimes when you talk about this kind of stuff,

462
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 2: people say you're anti science or you don't love science

463
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,200
Speaker 2: like they do, and really you just want science to be.

464
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,120
Speaker 1: Better, right, And the thing is is that science does

465
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:43,400
Speaker 1: not exist in a vacuum. It informs policy and it

466
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 1: informs our politics. So if something is being pushed through

467
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 1: the scientific community, it will eventually show up in various

468
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,360
Speaker 1: ways in our laws. And that's a huge impact.

469
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:56,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, we've seen it happen before, So I think we

470
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 2: really have a duty now to say this is where

471
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,400
Speaker 2: I draw the line. This is where we get inequitable

472
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 2: health policies right. And I think if there's anything I

473
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 2: want folks to take away from this is I want

474
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 2: you to think, if I know that race has no

475
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 2: biological ground to stand on, then racism is for what?

476
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 1: For what?

477
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 2: You know? Like it only racism only exists because race exists,

478
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 2: and the scientific community has supported race. And I think

479
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 2: there is time to really make it canon that we

480
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 2: know this is not real.

481
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 1: Right, And like Angela Saini was saying, it limits the

482
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,199
Speaker 1: growth that we can have as a society if we

483
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,639
Speaker 1: can't get past that first hurdle that race is a

484
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 1: social construct. It was something that was created by a

485
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 1: group of people to create this system, this structure that

486
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,400
Speaker 1: made them superior and other people fall below them. If

487
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 1: we can't get past that first hurdle, how can we

488
00:26:58,680 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 1: get to the other stuff.

489
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 2: It reminded me and I was looking for the quote

490
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 2: just now of this Tony Morrison quote that says the function,

491
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 2: the very serious function of racism is distraction. It keeps

492
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,120
Speaker 2: you from doing your work. It keeps you explaining over

493
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 2: and over again your reason for being. Somebody says you

494
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 2: have no language, so you spend twenty years proven that

495
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 2: you do. Somebody says your head isn't shaped properly, so

496
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,119
Speaker 2: you have scientists working on the fact that it is.

497
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,640
Speaker 2: Somebody says you have no art, so you dredge that up.

498
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 2: Somebody says you have no kingdom, so you dredge that up.

499
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,400
Speaker 2: None of this is necessary, and there will always be

500
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 2: one more thing, and that keeps us from getting to

501
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 2: the good part. You know, And we're not here saying

502
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:36,159
Speaker 2: that we're colorblind.

503
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 1: We absolutely see everyone's differences in color and culture and background,

504
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,199
Speaker 1: and we respect it. But we do know for a

505
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 1: fact that race does have an impact on all of

506
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 1: us even if it doesn't exist.

507
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 3: Well, I think we've just lived with this idea for

508
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,879
Speaker 3: so long. It does shape how we live, you know, race.

509
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,639
Speaker 3: Just because something is a social construct, that doesn't mean

510
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 3: it doesn't have a profound effect on your mind and

511
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,719
Speaker 3: on your body from the second that you're born. It

512
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 3: completely defines how society works. In the same way that

513
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 3: other social constructs like democracy or capitalism or communism or whatever.

514
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,919
Speaker 3: A system that you're living under. Race is a system

515
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 3: that we're living under, and when you understand it that way,

516
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 3: then you can start to understand why it is so

517
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:22,160
Speaker 3: difficult to shake.

518
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 1: That's it for Lab twenty five, but we have so

519
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,440
Speaker 1: much more for you to dig into on our website,

520
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 1: Dope labspodcast dot com, so head over there.

521
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 2: On our website you can find a cheat sheet for

522
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 2: today's lab, along with a ton of other links and resources.

523
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 2: In the show notes, it was hard not to get

524
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 2: carried away with this one, And.

525
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: If you want to stay in the know about what's

526
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 1: going on with Me and Zachiah and Dope Labs, don't

527
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 1: forget to sign up for our newsletter on the site

528
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 1: too Special.

529
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 2: Thanks to our guest expert, Angela Sani Her book is

530
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 2: called Superior, The Return of Race Science, and you can

531
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 2: find a link to it in our show notes.

532
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 1: If this episode blew your mind, then you've got to

533
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: get into the book. This was just a taste, a

534
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 1: tiny morsel of the full entree that she presents in

535
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 1: her books, so make sure you pick that up.

536
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 2: Yes, Also, we love hearing from you. What did you

537
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 2: think about today's lab? Do you have ideas for future labs?

538
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 2: Call us at two zero two five six seven seven

539
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 2: zero two eight and let us know.

540
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at Dope Labs.

541
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 2: Podcast tt is on Twitter at dr Underscore Tsho.

542
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 1: And you can find Zakiya at z Said.

543
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 2: So follow us on Spotify or wherever else you listen

544
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 2: to podcasts. Dope Labs is produced by Jenny radalt Mass

545
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 2: of WaveRunner Studios. Mixing and sound design are by Hannes Brown.

546
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 1: Our theme music is by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex Sugiura,

547
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 1: with additional music by Elijah Lex Harvey. Dope Labs is

548
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: a production of Spotify and Mega Own Media Group, and

549
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 1: it's executive produced by us T T show Dia and

550
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 1: Zakiah Wattley. Go go go, Who's next? Who's next?

551
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 2: Did you see the one with the heeltop?

552
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 1: Yes?

553
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 2: Girl, that man came out there in that karate suit.

554
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 2: He had the stank face on. You know, he was

555
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 2: getting ready to tear it up.

556
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 1: God, it was so good. It's so good. Hip hop Harry,

557
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, hip hop Harry had moves