1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,400 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Joe and I have a new podcast. 2 00:00:02,440 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: If you haven't heard already, it's me and also my 3 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: friend Vincent. Say, hi, what's up Caldoni? Yeah, and uh, 4 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: we're presenting an episode of it. You might have heard 5 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: our first episode last week before. Warned this is not 6 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: going to be showing up in the Sideways feed forever, 7 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:18,159 Speaker 1: so you need to go out to iTunes look up 8 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:20,919 Speaker 1: The Shocking Details, which is the name of our new podcast, 9 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 1: Details Shocking Details. Yeah, subscribe of course, give us a 10 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: rating five stars and all that stuff from thinking Sideways podcast. 11 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: I'm there. Welcome to another episode of The Shocking Details. 12 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 1: I am Joe, joined as always by Vincent Caldoni, and 13 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: we've got on the story for you this week. Interesting 14 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:55,279 Speaker 1: little story that you probably never heard about. And I 15 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: know it's not Halloween, but really, any time of the 16 00:00:57,600 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 1: year is a good time for a ghost story, right Vince, 17 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: especially if it's an Arkansas go story. Yeah, this is 18 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: in Arkansas gost story. This particular story got a lot 19 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: of national publicity back when it happened. This is in 20 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:11,959 Speaker 1: late nineteen nine, but it's completely dropped into obscurity sense, 21 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: so I had never heard of this when you sent 22 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: this to me and I heard it was the Arkansas Ghost. 23 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:19,760 Speaker 1: I literally thought it was a different story altogether. Yeah, 24 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: so don't I know this one, But it was not 25 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: the story that I that I read wasn't just a 26 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: ghost it was a ghost trial. Yeah. I thought, anyway, 27 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,679 Speaker 1: we should dread the story up and shock you all 28 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 1: with the gory details. And so I started the beginning. 29 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, right. The Judge Marcus Bone presiding in the 30 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 1: child of these defendants of the murder of Mr Conrad C. 31 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 1: Franklin is the state's prosecution president. Today is the defense president. 32 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: Is the victim president. In January ninety nine, a man 33 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: named Connie Franklin came to the St. James settlement in Arkansas. 34 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: That's the town of St. James. If you want to 35 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: know where this town is, it's about ten miles east 36 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: of the town of Mountain View, about seventy five miles 37 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: north northeast of Little Rock, about a hundred ten miles 38 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: northwest of Memphis, Tennessee. And it's really it's there today, 39 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 1: but it's kind of a white spot in the road really, 40 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:25,959 Speaker 1: but it's still there. But Connie Franklin found himself jobs 41 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: as a farm hand and a timber cutter, and when 42 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: he wasn't working, he was known for playing his French 43 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: harp also known as the harmonica or just the harp um. 44 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: And also if we're hitting on the local women, which 45 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: you know, what else does there to do right now? 46 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 1: And talk to the girls pretty much. She met a 47 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: local girl named Tiller Ruminer. Tiller was sixteen, by the way, 48 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 1: Connie was about twenty two years old. The two of 49 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: them hit it off real good, had a whirlwind romance, 50 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 1: and according to Tiller, on March nine, Connie proposed marriage 51 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,640 Speaker 1: and she accepted. So that is whirlwind. That's like two 52 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: months he's really yeah, it is. But then Connie Franklin disappeared. 53 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 1: A few of the town's folk noticed, although nobody seemed 54 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: to think it was exceptionally odd, because Connie was, after all, 55 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: kind of an itinerant farm hand type of guy, and 56 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 1: there was a lot of that back This is you 57 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:17,639 Speaker 1: know a lot of people drifted around from odd job. 58 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,359 Speaker 1: Oh definitely, especially in the world like like wheat and stuff. 59 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 1: They would it would follow the harvest as it as 60 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: it matured. Absolutely did seem a bit. Uh. Apparently Connie 61 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 1: had left his knapsack behind and his mail was still 62 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: being delivered to the local post office, which you wouldn't expect. 63 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:34,239 Speaker 1: I mean, if he had taken up residence somewhere else, 64 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: you would think he would have have has mail forwarded. 65 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 1: Perhaps makes sense, yeah, But nonetheless, it was just as 66 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: soon by most everybody that Connie had just drifted out 67 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: of town the same way he drifted in. And he'd 68 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: only been there a couple of months after all, anyway, right, 69 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: all right, so he was soon forgotten by most of 70 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: the folks in the town, except a few of them 71 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 1: found his unannounced departure to be kind of suspect, especially 72 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: if somebody named Bertha Burns we will talk about a 73 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: little later. She was an armchair detective who got kind 74 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: of involved in this mystery. Yeah, she was. She was 75 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: actually sort of harassing the sheriff on and off about 76 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: this for months after Connie's disappearance. You gotta do it 77 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: if you want stuff done. Yeah, But of course, you know, 78 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: just because Bertha is suspicious about something does not mean 79 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: that sheriff can go arrest somebody. Right, what what did 80 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: Tyler think about this? I mean, she must have had 81 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 1: an opinion about him running out of town. Well, yeah, 82 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:33,359 Speaker 1: but she wasn't really talking interestingly enough until until later 83 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:38,039 Speaker 1: that year, in November nine, That is when Tyler finally 84 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:40,600 Speaker 1: came forward and told her story. She went to the 85 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: local sheriff, Sam Johnson and told him that Connie Franklin 86 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 1: had been murdered back in March. She hadn't said anything 87 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: about it to anybody because the murderers were local guys 88 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: night riders in other words, vigilantes, and they had told 89 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: her that she and her family would all be killed 90 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: if she snitched. But eventually Taylor did decide to snitch, 91 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 1: and here is her story. On March, Connie and Tiller 92 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: we're on a country road, headed a local Justice of 93 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:08,239 Speaker 1: the peace Finnish Ford to get a marriage license south 94 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 1: of St. James, not far from the tiny town of 95 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: Red Stripe, Arkansas. Love that name, that's a great name, 96 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: Jamaican beer. Yeah. They were ambushed by four men, Joe White, 97 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 1: Bill Younger, Herman Greenway, and Hubert Hester Greenway. And Hester 98 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 1: raped Tiller and they made her watch while they beat 99 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 1: Connie to death with rocks and sticks. It's a hell 100 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 1: of a way to go. Uh. They built a large 101 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: fire and burned Connie's body. Many of the news articles 102 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 1: made reference to mutilation and dismemberment as well, but none 103 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: of those stories. All right, get down to the details 104 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 1: of what what got caught off? Yeah yeah, what exactly 105 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 1: they did to him? It sounds pretty horrifying. Yeah yeah. 106 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: And we should note that there's at least one newspaper 107 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: that said that Connie was unconscious but still alive when 108 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:00,359 Speaker 1: he was put into the fire. But whatever, by the 109 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: time he was all done, he was he was dead. 110 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and there wasn't much left around but charred bones. Yeah. Yeah, 111 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: those ones are hard to get rid of. Uh. Tiller's 112 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:15,840 Speaker 1: story was corroborated by Ruben Harrold, a deaf, mute guy 113 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 1: who happened to be there. He also happened to be 114 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: Tiller's second cousin. Not sure why he was there, or 115 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: maybe he was tagging along as a witness to the wedding. 116 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:28,359 Speaker 1: Maybe we're just stocking the stock. Maybe he was secretly 117 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 1: in love with his second cousin, and it's just like, yeah, 118 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:34,919 Speaker 1: that happens. Yeah. I was hoping we would get to 119 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 1: the bottom of what he was up to, but we 120 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: don't ever really find out, do I guess he could 121 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 1: have just been out on the road and it was 122 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 1: just a coincidence. If it's a rural area, maybe yeah. 123 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: But he he gave a written statement to the county 124 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 1: prosecutor backing up Tiller's account. His account, by the way, 125 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:53,799 Speaker 1: didn't claim that he had seen the raper the murder, 126 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 1: just that he saw the accused caring Connie's body through 127 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: the woods. Maybe he was out there moonshine and so 128 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 1: he saw them carrying out his dead corpse. But this 129 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 1: is not part of the story. That which is why 130 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: did why did these guys spare him? Yeah? Did the 131 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: spare Reuben? And did he was he hiding from them? 132 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: Or maybe they thought they had never talked? Maybe they 133 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: threatened him the same way they did Tiller. Of course 134 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 1: the Reuben actually couldn't talk, but he was still right, 135 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: what's she, which is how he made his statement. It's 136 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: it's hard for me to imagine that if there was 137 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: something like that Reuben wentdn't hit right, that he wouldn't 138 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: have mentioned that, Like that seems like a detail to me, 139 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: right that I would want to include, Like if I 140 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 1: was witnessed to a murder and I was giving a 141 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: statement about what I had seen that day, I would 142 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 1: for sure include why didn't the killer try to kill me? Well, 143 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: he might have. I mean, most of the accounts of this, 144 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 1: this is actually kind of a lot was written about 145 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: this in the national press at the time, but of 146 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: course the press being what it is, a lot of 147 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 1: there were there were a lot of distortions, a lot 148 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 1: of valuable little details like that got left out about Lumen. 149 00:07:57,360 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: I read a number of accounts that mentioned Reuben and 150 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: his account. They didn't say exactly why he didn't get 151 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: killed by that, by these guys or whatever. They didn't 152 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 1: say that, and so I you know, I really can't 153 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: say why. So they left out some really good, important 154 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: little details and and also inserted some probably fictional more 155 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: soelations details to make the story a little juicier, no doubt, 156 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: I mean, that's how they did it. Back then, a 157 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 1: local woman named Bertha Burns, as I mentioned before, took 158 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 1: an interest in the Connie Franklin mystery. Bertha apparently lived 159 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 1: not too far from where Connie had been murdered, and 160 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 1: she had found a bloody hat in the woods that 161 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: she believed was Connie's. She showed it to Sheriff Johnson. 162 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 1: Sheriff Johnson presented it the hat to a grand jury, 163 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 1: which declined to indict anybody because you know, it's not unreasonable. 164 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 1: It's it's a bloody hat, after all, I'm not much 165 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:47,959 Speaker 1: else that blood does get on stuff. Yeah, I mean, 166 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: if you cut your head for some reason, you might 167 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: just throw your hat off and me like, I'm not 168 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: wearing that ever again. Yeah, And actually I feel as 169 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:55,959 Speaker 1: we'll get to you a little bit later on the story, 170 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 1: there was kind of a not unreasonable explanation for that, that 171 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 1: that being bloody. Yeah. So, in the summer of Connie's sister, 172 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 1: or at least a young woman claiming to be Connie's sister, 173 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 1: came to St. James looking for him. Bertha Burns took 174 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 1: this is more evidence that there had been indeed foul 175 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:16,680 Speaker 1: play after all. So if Connie had simply migrated, surely 176 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 1: he would have let his family know where he had 177 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 1: gone to. Bertha dug out the bloody hat to show 178 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,560 Speaker 1: to the sister, and then led Sheriff Johnson into the 179 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: woods near her home to a pile of burnt bones, teeth, 180 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,559 Speaker 1: and ashes. This was all that remained of Connie, or 181 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: at least that's what Bertha believed. She also told the 182 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 1: sheriff that she'd heard a scream coming from the area 183 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:40,079 Speaker 1: on the night that Connie disappeared were more likely some 184 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 1: time around that time, since Bertha couldn't have actually precisely 185 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 1: known which exact night Connie had disappeared. A little puzzling, 186 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: isn't it? Yeah it is, yeah, so and so hearing 187 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: all this till the rumor finally sat down with Sheriff 188 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:58,560 Speaker 1: Johnson and told her tale of murder. Not long after, 189 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: of course, Tiller's cousin Rubens, admitted his written statement backing 190 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:04,839 Speaker 1: her story up. This was finally enough for the grand 191 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: jury to indict, and they did Esther, Greenway, White, and 192 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,959 Speaker 1: Younger were all indicted for murder. Another local named Alex 193 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: Folks was also indicted, even though Tiller had not mentioned 194 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 1: him originally in her story. Apparently he was accused because 195 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 1: he was known to be the ringleader of this little gang, 196 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: so of course he must have been involved, right, There's 197 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,319 Speaker 1: no way he took the night off, no, of course not. 198 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: What else was there to do is to go out 199 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:29,680 Speaker 1: and with your fellow night riders and have a little fun, 200 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 1: right sure? Yeah, But it turns out also that Alex 201 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 1: Folks and a few of his friends had beaten Bertha Burns, 202 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 1: his husband a few months prior to this for unknown reason. 203 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 1: These guys were essentially kind of self designated Mora land 204 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 1: forces in the area. Yeah, I was gonna ask what 205 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: their what their affiliation? Where were they just highway bandits? 206 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: Were they in the clan? What was their deal? They 207 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 1: were not in the clan as far as I know. 208 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 1: They were just kind of vigilantes and moral enforcers. And 209 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 1: so somebody had strayed, somebody had committed the after, you know, 210 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: some transgression, they would go administer a little, a little 211 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: frontier justice apparently, well that's short, of course, a lynching, 212 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 1: except you know, I mean, Connie as far as I know, 213 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 1: is the only person that they ever killed. Okay, yeah, yeah, 214 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: but yeah, apparently somebody had transgressed, especially if they transgressed 215 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: against them personally. I'm gonna have more questions about that 216 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: later on. Yeah, sure, keep going. Yeah, but but this 217 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 1: this leads to a question about Birtha Burns and her 218 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 1: role in all this. Was she was she just an 219 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,680 Speaker 1: armchair detective or was she sort of spirit heading out 220 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 1: a way to get back at these people for attacking 221 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 1: her husband and beating him and what the very least, 222 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 1: she's got a conflict of interest a little bit, I 223 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:41,200 Speaker 1: would say, there's a reason to wonder exactly about her 224 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: objective objectivity in this whole thing. So it's also worth 225 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 1: mentioning that the day after Connie's murder or disappearance, our 226 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 1: four vigilantes rated the cabin that Tiller Ruminer and her 227 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 1: family lived in. They accused Charlie Ruminer Tiller's father, a theft. 228 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: Though I can't tell you what she's what he stole, 229 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: I don't know what didn't. They administered beatings for the 230 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: entire family from that nice guys, right, can you imagine 231 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 1: being a kid, like like you're like eating your your 232 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 1: cheerios and someone comes to be like your dad stole 233 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: from me? Like, kid, what did I do? I mean? 234 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 1: These are it should be pointed out to mean, this 235 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: is it's hard to sort out truths from rumor from 236 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: you know, yeah, this whole story, yeah's a strange story. 237 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 1: So they beat the whole family, and after that they 238 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 1: took Tiller's brother Hoy with them to work on one 239 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: of their farms as reparations for Charlie's crime whatever that was. 240 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: So it must have been a crime against them, like 241 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 1: we know that much. Yeah, he stole something from one 242 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 1: of them, apparently, you know. So. Tiller would later say 243 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:47,200 Speaker 1: that they took Hoit as a hostage to keep her 244 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: silent about the murder. I guess that's sort of halfway 245 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: makes sense. I mean, you know, it was just your 246 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 1: day after that whole thing. Maybe they thought, you know, 247 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:58,439 Speaker 1: that threats were not quite enough. Let's go, Yeah, just 248 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: as kind of an insurance, Paul, And that makes sense. 249 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:03,599 Speaker 1: This kind of makes sense. Now, Remember all of this 250 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: happened before there are any serious accusations of murder. Yeah, 251 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 1: this happened that this would have happened in mid March. Yeah, 252 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: so let's let's lash forward to the trial of Greenway, Hester, White, 253 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: Younger and folks. It was all set for December nineteen 254 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: twenty nine, and local anger towards the accused was running high, 255 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 1: so they were being kept in jail cells outside the 256 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: county for their own production. Evidence for the prosecution was 257 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: this too. Witnesses that would be Tiller and her cousin. 258 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 1: The ear witness testimony of Bertha Burns regarding the scream, 259 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: a bloody hat and what was left of the body, 260 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 1: which was some charred bones and teeth, and of course 261 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:43,559 Speaker 1: the fact that Connie Franklin was gone, which seemed to 262 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 1: kind of point towards some sort of foul play. Right. 263 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 1: The five defendants, however, had been saying since their arrest 264 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:52,200 Speaker 1: that no murder had taken place. Connie was not dead. 265 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: They said, well, in that case, then where was he 266 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 1: was the obvious question? Nobody knew this, but the case 267 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: by this time and received statewide publicty. So Connie was alive. 268 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 1: You would think he would have heard about this and 269 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 1: come forward, right, So you know, the prosecution did appear 270 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: to have some sort of a case, then, I mean, 271 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: well it would would it be beyond in your opinion, 272 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 1: would it be on the pale that Connie could have 273 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 1: left the state, it went someplace else to work or 274 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: do whatever. Sure not, it's not beyond the relic possibility. 275 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 1: So that the prosecution seems to think they had some 276 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 1: sort of circumstantial case. An attacked body probably would have helped, right, 277 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 1: But still that's was growing in some quarters as to 278 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: whether there really had even been a murder. Yeah, the trout, 279 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: but well, the trial was hold on. So actually I 280 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: wanted to ask you this when you when you sent 281 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 1: me the research material. Yeah, unless Bertha was lying, someone 282 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: got murdered, someone got burned on her property, right, Uh yeah, 283 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 1: or in the woods near her home that was her 284 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: property or not. It appeared it appeared from the ashes, 285 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: the bonus of teeth and everything, that somebody had been murdered. Right. 286 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: This is not for forensick, yeah, you know, like we 287 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: have today. They didn't probably even have blood typing, especially 288 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 1: if a body has been thoroughly burned. But I would 289 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: think that them, being a farming community, could tell when 290 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: you're looking at human teeth versus a deer or something, 291 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: right like, well, you know, and they sent that, you know, 292 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: they wanted to be all official about it. They actually 293 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 1: gathered all the evidence up and sent it to the 294 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: state crime lab to be examined. So somebody is dead. 295 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 1: We just don't know if it's it appeared that somebody 296 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: was dead, but it did appear to be that then, 297 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 1: and of course, uh, the some more evidence about this 298 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: comes out a little bit later about the body. But 299 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 1: this is now beginning of December, early December, the trial 300 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: is about to begin. Uh, And that is when the 301 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: ghost of Connie Franklin appeared. I know who said it 302 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 1: was a ghost story. I know, hey, but I know 303 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: Attenion atension mounts. But before we go any further, time 304 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 1: for a quick word from our sponsor. This week's episode 305 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: is brought to you by the motion picture in tech 306 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 1: Te directed by Vincent Caldoni's reacted by Vincent Caldoni. Yes. Yeah, 307 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: So the movie Contact is a story about aliens in 308 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: humans interacting. It is a psychological thriller where you will 309 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: never be quite sure what is real until the very end, 310 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: that at all. You can check it out at ww 311 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: dot contact movie dot com, watch the trailer stills, and uh, 312 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: find out about it all right. I haven't seen the 313 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 1: entire movie yet, I've seen some some parts of it. Yeah, 314 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: it's got a cameo from Joe's it does. Yeah, I 315 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 1: have a little bit part in it, and you'll be 316 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: happy to know I have my clothes on. Yeah. Yeah, 317 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: thank god. Right, it's not that kind of movie, Joe. Yeah, okay, 318 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 1: So the five men were about to be tried for 319 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: the murder of Connie Francis, but then said Connie Francis, 320 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: Connie Franklin, I might leave that in. Yeah, Connie Francis 321 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 1: a singer, Yeah, good singer. Okay, So the five men 322 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 1: were about to be tried for the murder of Connie Franklin, 323 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: but then one Elmer Wingo from the nearby town of Moralton, 324 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 1: says Connie Franklin passed through there looking for work a 325 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 1: week or so after the alleged murder was supposed to 326 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:21,360 Speaker 1: have allegedly taken place. Elmer Wingdo was a farmer and 327 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 1: Connie Franklin had worked on his farm a few years before, 328 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 1: so he would know what Connie looked like, right, exactly. Yeah, 329 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:32,120 Speaker 1: And Arkansas newspapers ran the story along with Connie's photo, 330 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:34,919 Speaker 1: and the families of the accused also offer rewards for 331 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:38,919 Speaker 1: anyone who could find him, and amazingly, Connie Franklin was found. 332 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 1: It was a little money to motivate people. Uh, buttrick 333 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,159 Speaker 1: still works, Yeah, it does. He was working on a 334 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:48,920 Speaker 1: farm in the town of Humphrey, apparently unaware that he 335 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: had been murdered. He was brought back to the county 336 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 1: seat and delivered to the defense attorneys. They were happy, 337 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 1: of course, as were the accused and their families, and 338 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: of course the media when word got out, I mean, 339 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 1: the media had already been drawn to town because of 340 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:07,160 Speaker 1: the depravity of the story. It's the kind of thing 341 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 1: that excites people, you know, and that it had already 342 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:12,920 Speaker 1: made the national news even before the return of Connie Franklin. 343 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 1: And I mean it's a good story, right, I mean 344 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,400 Speaker 1: it was a heinous crime. I mean, people say, are 345 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,399 Speaker 1: on their way to get their marriage license and overtaken 346 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 1: by batties, beatings, rapes, burnings, and it's a good story, 347 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 1: it said. Yeah, so it was. And so the media 348 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 1: was already kind of all over this. But then when 349 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 1: Connie returned to town, Oh my god, then that's when 350 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: things really got crazy. And apparently the town of Mountain View, 351 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 1: which is where the county courthouse was, which is where 352 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: the trial was supposed to take place, became the town 353 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,479 Speaker 1: became a circus. It was over with reporters and just 354 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,679 Speaker 1: curiosity seekers and stuff like that, you know, you know 355 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:54,360 Speaker 1: that was back in the those stays. Yeah, everybody came 356 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: from far and wide because there wasn't much in the 357 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,679 Speaker 1: way of entertainment. There was no internet, no TV, you know, 358 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 1: and so yeah, the national press descended like a murder 359 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 1: of crows. And uh, it's it did shock the nation. Um, 360 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:11,199 Speaker 1: and it's really been said too that's the stereotype of 361 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 1: the Ozark Mountain people as to pray. The leader at 362 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 1: Morons kind of began with this story. Some people have 363 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,200 Speaker 1: said this, and I think there's something to that. Since 364 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,919 Speaker 1: Connie Franklin had, after all, risen from the dead, he 365 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 1: was Nick's nicknamed the Arkansas Ghost in the media. Great name. Yeah, 366 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: the Arkansas Ghost story went viral, or at least, you know, 367 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:35,920 Speaker 1: whatever passed for virality in those days. Yeah. Story, Yeah, 368 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 1: I mean it's it's a pretty fascinating story. It would 369 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: be pretty amazing if that happened today. I mean, the 370 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 1: world's different. But yeah, just a guy turned up at 371 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 1: his own trial, yea, his murder trial, murder trail. Yeah. 372 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 1: So some people weren't convinced that this new Connie was 373 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:53,919 Speaker 1: the real Connie, or maybe it was his ghost. Some 374 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 1: people thought it might have been a ghost. That would 375 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 1: be a twist. Maybe someone had hired a ringer. Maybe 376 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: the sheriff was wondering that too, So he set up 377 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 1: a test, recruited several girls who resembled Tiller Ruminer, and 378 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 1: he put them in a room along with Tiller herself, 379 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 1: and then he asked Connie air quotes there to pick 380 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,880 Speaker 1: her out, which he did without hesitation. Okay, so maybe 381 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 1: he'd seen a photo of hurt them may have been 382 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: photos in the paper for all we know, right until her, 383 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 1: for her part, said that this guy was not the 384 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 1: Connie that she'd known. But Connie knew all sorts of 385 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: personal things about Tiller and their relationship, and she did 386 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 1: have an incentive to lie, because making a false police 387 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 1: report like that is a crime. Yeah, maybe she thought 388 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: if it was false, she just thought Connie was gone, 389 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:39,880 Speaker 1: he wasn't coming back, and she'd get away with it. 390 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,640 Speaker 1: So Connie, Connie says, do you remember these songs are 391 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 1: saying to you? And we say outside the Creek and 392 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 1: tell her says to him and says, okay, well, if 393 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 1: you're kie, let's hear you sing the Lonesome Pine, which 394 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 1: Connie did, and Connie does, and as she does a 395 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: pretty creditable rendition of it. Then Tiller's dad, Charlie Ruminer, says, well, okay, 396 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 1: let's hear you play Turkey and this raw the French harp. 397 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 1: Connie does that too, along with some other tunes, you know, 398 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 1: just as well as the original Connie did. So, yeah, 399 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: according to the according to the papers, they seemed. They 400 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:14,719 Speaker 1: seemed a bit unsure at this point in time, although 401 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 1: later on eventually they decided to new Connie was definitely, 402 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 1: most definitely not the old Connie. What made them decide this, 403 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 1: I don't know, just his looks or whatever. I mean, 404 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:31,360 Speaker 1: I guess it's um, you know. I Well, we'll get 405 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 1: into why it was so hard. It was so hard 406 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,160 Speaker 1: to figure out if this was a real Connie or not. 407 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:40,199 Speaker 1: Publican public opinion in town was pretty divided on the issue. 408 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 1: But you know, it should be said that Connie wasn't 409 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 1: around that long, not that many people had known him 410 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: that well, right, many people saw the guy was Connie, 411 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,119 Speaker 1: maybe said he was, so many said he wasn't. But 412 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: the problem for the sheriff and the county prosecutor is 413 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 1: that they really couldn't find anybody who had known Connie 414 00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 1: who didn't have an interest in the case. On one 415 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 1: side of that makes sense, Yeah, So it was a 416 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: tough one for these small towns. Are Yeah, So, rather 417 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: than pull the plug on the case, the prosecutors decided 418 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: the best way to resolve the issue is to let 419 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: the jury decide. I would to hold on that for 420 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 1: a moment. The victim may not actually even be deceased, 421 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 1: and they're going ahead with the murder trial. I mean 422 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 1: that's pretty spectacular. That's insane. Do you imagine that happening today? Yeah, 423 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 1: well yeah, I mean a defense attorney would definitely have 424 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: a have a good time with this whole saying. But wow. Yeah. 425 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 1: So I just wanted to highlight that. That's that was 426 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 1: really for me when I was reading the material you 427 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,400 Speaker 1: sent at first, I was like, that is crazy, Yeah, 428 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: that's crazy case. Right. So the trial gets underway beginning 429 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:47,159 Speaker 1: on December sevente and sitting at the prosecutor's table was 430 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 1: Hugh Williams in the County d A. The attorney for 431 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:53,439 Speaker 1: the defense was Ben Williamson. He was brother. As you 432 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:57,160 Speaker 1: can imagine, the national press one nuts over that. Yeah, 433 00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: one more reason to make fun of these silly os 434 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 1: ark people, man, yeah, yeah, along with the general strainess 435 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: of a murder trial where the victim is like walking 436 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 1: around right now. The first day at the trial, Tiller 437 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 1: gave some pretty dramatic testimony. She recounted how white younger 438 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 1: Greenway and Hester ambushed them and beat Connie unconscious. They 439 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 1: then mutilated his body, and no details for that are available, 440 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 1: they built a large fire around him and put him 441 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 1: on the fire, even though he was still alive. She said, 442 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:27,880 Speaker 1: the body rolled off the fire, so the murderers had 443 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 1: to rebuild it and put the body back on, and 444 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 1: when it was done, the unburned parts of Connie were 445 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 1: put in a bag and tossed into the river where Connie. 446 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 1: Prosecution placed the charred bones and teeth into evidence, but 447 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 1: their case took a bit of a hit when the 448 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: state health officer testified in a cross examination that the 449 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 1: bone fragments were too incomplete to be able to determine 450 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 1: whether the bones were even human, much less Connie Franklin's. 451 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 1: The record is not totally clear on this, but apparently 452 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 1: there had been Originally in the romains there was a 453 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 1: chart of what appeared to be human skull, and that 454 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: piece of evidence had particularly apparently gone missing by the 455 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 1: time of the trial. So without that shard of skull, 456 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:13,680 Speaker 1: essentially there was no proof that these bones were even human. Yeah, 457 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: but what about the teeth. Human teeth are pretty easy 458 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: to identify. Competitive Yeah, Well, a dentist testify it also. 459 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 1: He had examined the teeth and said they were actually 460 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:25,159 Speaker 1: from a dog or perhaps a sheep, wait, wait, or 461 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,639 Speaker 1: a sheep a dog, or maybe a sheep a dog 462 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 1: or a sheep. Yeah. Then on day two Connie Franklin 463 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,879 Speaker 1: took this tent as a defense witness. This was, as 464 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 1: far as I know, the only time in US history 465 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,920 Speaker 1: that somebody has testified at the trial for his own murder. 466 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:43,679 Speaker 1: That's that's pretty groundbreaking legally speaking. But according to Connie's testimony, 467 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: and his murderers got drunk on the night that he 468 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 1: was allegedly murdered and headed a mountain view to obtain 469 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 1: a marriage license, and Connie fell off his mule at 470 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 1: some point because of course he was drunk and was 471 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,439 Speaker 1: injured badly enough that he probably blooded his hat for 472 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 1: one thing, and also didn't get back to St. James 473 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: Settlement that night, And that was his story. I mean, 474 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 1: who knows. They were all drunk. Maybe they decided to 475 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: go out and have a little bachelor party and uh 476 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 1: did some improper things. You don't really know. But apparently 477 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,159 Speaker 1: he was expected back in town that night by Tiller. 478 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,479 Speaker 1: So the next day, when he did get back, Tiller 479 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 1: told him she was postponing the wedding until the fall. 480 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: He threw down an ultimatum, which was marry me now 481 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,920 Speaker 1: today or I'm leaving town. She said, so he left 482 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: town and that was that. The prosecution argued that Connie 483 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: was an impostor. This is a new car. He also 484 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 1: asked the jury, why would Tiller have made up a 485 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 1: story like this, that's my question, good point, which would 486 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: send several innocent men to the gallops. Why would she 487 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 1: even do that? What did she have against that? What 488 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: would be the motive? Yeah? Right, So the other three 489 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:52,120 Speaker 1: witnesses said the new Connie was an impostor. Tiller, her dad, Charlie, 490 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:56,119 Speaker 1: and one Coleman Foster, who had known Connie. Coleman was 491 00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: also Um Taylor's cousin. They were there's a lot of 492 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 1: cousin problem. It's a small community, and let's give the 493 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: people at least that much credit. Of the people who 494 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,440 Speaker 1: swore that Connie was not the real Connie, none really 495 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: seemed to be unrelated to the accuser. So was Connie 496 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 1: really Connie? Well know, his real name, it turns out, 497 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: was Marion Franklin Rogers, and he was about ten years 498 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: older than what he had told me. He lied, he 499 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 1: said he was a younger man. Uh, he had a wife, 500 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 1: and kids. Right, it turned out, yeah, that was the case, 501 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 1: and he had abandoned them. Oh, and he had done 502 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 1: some time in a mental hospital. He had been committed 503 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 1: in ninety six and escaped three months later. Uh, he'd 504 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 1: been drifting around the state ever since. So this new 505 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 1: Connie Franklin wasn't real then, right? Oh? No, Actually he 506 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 1: was ideated as Marion Rogers two fingerprints and dental records, 507 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: he was indeed Marion Rogers, but he said he had 508 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,439 Speaker 1: been traveling around since his escape from the mental institution 509 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 1: under an alias of Connie Franklin. What's kind of I 510 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: guess makes sense. So he said that even though even 511 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 1: though I lied about my name, I really truly am 512 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 1: the Connie Franklin you guys knew previously. I was just 513 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,919 Speaker 1: lying to you back then about my past and about 514 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: my real name. All right, And what's notable is that 515 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: this is short of ground ground shaking for the case 516 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: of the prosecution's case. At this time, Tiller changed her story. 517 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 1: She said that she had witnessed a beating, but now 518 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 1: admitted that she hadn't actually seen a murder or seeing 519 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,119 Speaker 1: Connie's body being burned. So that's kind of tough for 520 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: the prosecution to one. Yeah, the accuse said that Tiller 521 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:38,919 Speaker 1: accused them of rape and murder as payback for the 522 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 1: raid on her family. Makes sense. Yeah, Actually, it could 523 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,159 Speaker 1: be argued that the entire story of Connie Connie's murder 524 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 1: was the fruit of a conspiracy, and that conspiracy was 525 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 1: just another chapter in a long running feud. Yeah, maybe 526 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 1: orchestrated by perhaps birth of Burns, or at least she 527 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 1: seemed to have had some role in this. Maybe the Yeah, 528 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 1: maybe the rum and her family and Bertha got together 529 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: decided they could pull this off. It's hard to say. 530 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 1: It's been said the story had roots in a local 531 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,159 Speaker 1: moonshine war between the s clan on one side and 532 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 1: the Youngers and Greenaways on the other side. Can feels 533 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,360 Speaker 1: that way, I mean not. Yeah, really, there's a big, 534 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,640 Speaker 1: old back story here that we never heard about. Right. 535 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 1: It does feel like we're witness like this whole trial 536 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 1: is the tip of a big iceberg, and that there's 537 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:26,360 Speaker 1: probably going to be more in here we don't even 538 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,360 Speaker 1: know about. Yeah, So, presented with these weird and conflicting stories, 539 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: probably the same thoughts that we're having right now, the 540 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 1: jury they couldn't decide they were. The judge, the Honorable 541 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 1: Marcus Bone, great name as a great name for a judge, 542 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: informed them that the county had already spent it on 543 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: godly amount of money on this case, and they God will, 544 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 1: God willed damned come to a verdict one way or 545 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: the other. So they voted for acquittal. Yeah, probably not 546 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 1: a bad choice, it does. That's probably what i'd vote. 547 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 1: Although Hester and Greenaway were held over for trial on 548 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 1: charges of rape, but those charges were dropping her later. 549 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 1: I wonder why. It doesn't sound like it was a 550 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 1: very incredible no, no, incredible. Unfortunately, the mystory lives on, though. 551 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 1: I hear that the story of the Arkansas Ghost is 552 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 1: still the big topic of debate in Stone County, Arkansas. 553 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 1: Everybody involved is long dead, of course, so we'll never 554 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 1: know for sure what actually happened. Was there actually a murder, 555 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: It's hard to say, but I suspect that there was not. 556 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 1: That's the prosecution said. Of course, it's hard to believe 557 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 1: that Tiller Ruiner would make up such a heinous story. 558 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 1: But on the other hand, people do make false accusations 559 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: from time to time, and certainly the fact that she 560 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: changed her story mid trial is sufficient reason to question 561 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 1: all of it. Yeah, and I also have to say 562 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: that depravity of the crime is she describes, it makes 563 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: it a little hard to believe. I mean, the guys 564 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 1: that these guys were, they were vigilantes, they were jerks, 565 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: they were violent to a certain extent, But it doesn't 566 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,959 Speaker 1: sound to me like they ever committed anything more heinous 567 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 1: than basically a kind of a beating. You know, that's 568 00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: actually the The exact thought that I had was that 569 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 1: if you're gonna kill a man, rape his fiancee, and 570 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,719 Speaker 1: burn him to death still alive, it's probably not like 571 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 1: your first rodeo. Yeah, probably not. That's not where you're 572 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 1: starting now, that's where you build up to over time. Yeah. Well, 573 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 1: so it was Marion Rogers, the original Connie Franklin. Again, 574 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 1: this is hard to say. I mean, Franklin was not 575 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 1: in St. James long enough for very many people who 576 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 1: get to know him. As I mentioned before, everybody involved 577 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 1: had some bias. Lots of people said he wasn't the 578 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 1: same guy. A lot said he uh said that. Uh, 579 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: you know, he was a lot of people that said 580 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: he wasn't the same man really seemed to dislike the 581 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 1: accused men and so yeah, confusion reigns. My conclusion is 582 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: that Marion Rodgers was probably the original Connie Franklin who 583 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 1: showed up in the early nine but I wouldn't bet 584 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 1: my life on it. I think it probably was, But 585 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: I think so it might actually be the case that 586 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 1: Franklin was brutally actually brutally murdered in March nineteen twenty nine. 587 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: Marion Rogers was an impostor. Uh. And maybe Tiller changed 588 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 1: her story mid trial because friends of the accused somehow 589 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 1: got to her put the fear of God into her, 590 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 1: or maybe not, I don't know. I think part of 591 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 1: what this hangs on is that the bone pile. Yeah, 592 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 1: I mean if those really were dog or sheep bone, 593 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 1: I guess because those are easy to confuse, then um, 594 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 1: you know that I would be inclined to go your 595 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 1: way if those bones had turned out to be human, 596 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 1: which an expert even then could have told you, even 597 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 1: though I mean this is Arkansas, the twenties, the experts. Yeah, 598 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 1: if if they had that, or even if you know 599 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: they're around somewhere today, which are probably not, then um 600 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 1: I I would and they turned out to be human, 601 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 1: I would be inclined to say, somebody got killed that night, 602 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: and that person was likely whoever Connie Franklin was, whether 603 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: that was his real name with that was an assumed name. 604 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 1: That again, yeah, then again, and again, you gotta like 605 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: looking at the whole thing. I mean, um, Bertha Burns 606 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 1: had a grudge against these accuseman who would beat in 607 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:58,960 Speaker 1: her husband the room and her family had a grudge. 608 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 1: And she's you know, she was the one who led 609 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 1: law enforcement to this pile of bones and ashes and 610 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 1: teeth and stuff. And so maybe she just thought, you know, hey, 611 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, forensic science isn't what's going to 612 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 1: be in fifty sixty years, ha ha. Because but and 613 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 1: so I'll just I'll just throw a bunch of sheep 614 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 1: and dog bones into a pile of Burnham, crunch him 615 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 1: up so that they're just unrecognizable, and and and lie 616 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 1: to the police. Maybe she maybe that's what she did. 617 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 1: That's I find that as easy to believe, if not 618 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: easier to believe. The only problem I have with that 619 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 1: is that conspiracies are hard to maintain. That I mean, 620 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 1: we've seen that in the research we've done. You can 621 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 1: listen to other podcasts, read books about it. This requires 622 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 1: a lot of co conspirators. Right, so you've got birth 623 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: and her husband, you got the room and her family. Yeah, 624 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 1: but what if it was entirely orchestrated by Bertha. She 625 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 1: just manipulated the other people around her. And once she 626 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 1: once she talked Tiller into into basically telling this story. 627 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: She kind of had her on the hook because Tyler 628 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 1: couldn't go back on it. She that's that's kind of 629 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 1: like she'd be in there. Well, it's not pretty. It's 630 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 1: report false reporting of a crime or yeah, harsh penalty. 631 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 1: It should really, I mean something something like this. You 632 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 1: waste not only time and money. Judge bones that it 633 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 1: cost him a lot of money. It did. Apparently it 634 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 1: broke they broke the county's budget that year. Yeah, so 635 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 1: you know, throw one more theory at it, you though, Yeah, 636 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:22,960 Speaker 1: that's why we're talking. What if those were human bones 637 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: in there, but they weren't. Whoever Connie Franklin, yeah, slash 638 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 1: Marion Rogers was would have Bertha killed somebody and this 639 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 1: was her plan to cover it up. That's a good 640 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: possibility to you know, there's there's a lot of kinds 641 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 1: of reasons to burn a body. I mean, some people 642 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 1: not everybody buries their bodies. Maybe somebody thought, you know, 643 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 1: I will burn them, like burn him like our ancient 644 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: ancestors did. Maybe this person died of something, something infectious, 645 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 1: and they just thought, okay, let's burn the botty. Now 646 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 1: it's true, and then also you get you know, I 647 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 1: just this is just popping in my head. But you 648 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 1: know this is during prohibition. Yeah, if moonshiners were out 649 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 1: there moonshine and one of them died for one reason 650 00:33:57,760 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 1: or the other, yea, the last thing you want to 651 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 1: do is all the corner. Yeah that's possibility. Yeah. So 652 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 1: there's uh, yeah, there's not. This is back, not even 653 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 1: in Arkansas, but in all kinds of places around America. 654 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 1: Thinks that there wasn't so much paperwork when somebody died 655 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,279 Speaker 1: as there is today. Nope. So there's a rumor that 656 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,319 Speaker 1: Judge Marcus Bone again, because of all this negative publicity, 657 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,200 Speaker 1: ordered all of the records from the trial destroyed. Yea, 658 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,360 Speaker 1: I know, I love it, except for the ones that 659 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 1: he was legally obligated to keep. That's why there are 660 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 1: a lot of questions about the Arkansas ghost is it. 661 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:31,880 Speaker 1: You can't just pull up these you can't just go 662 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,840 Speaker 1: look off these things because yeah, and also you know, 663 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 1: even if he didn't do that, things have a way 664 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,759 Speaker 1: of disappearing. Um, you know, I was there was another 665 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,040 Speaker 1: case I was researching where there was some stuff that 666 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:43,880 Speaker 1: had just been swiped out of the out of the 667 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 1: county records. Well there's that, and there's you know, like 668 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 1: there's a podcast that I follow and they're trying to 669 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: get old court records from you know, just from the nineties. 670 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,480 Speaker 1: But they're they've been stored in properly, they're covered in 671 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,440 Speaker 1: mildew and you know this is only from the you know, 672 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 1: from nineteen right, So if you've stored them in properly 673 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 1: in a place where water is leaking, where there's mold 674 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:09,760 Speaker 1: and mildew, and you play that out over eighty ninety years, 675 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:15,280 Speaker 1: well then they're gone. They're dissolved altogether. And it actually 676 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,319 Speaker 1: really is a problem in our country how we have 677 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 1: all of these civil and legal records that are just 678 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,800 Speaker 1: not properly being stored and are decaying, making it harder 679 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 1: to know about the older cases and filings. The plus 680 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 1: side though, is that you know, if you if you 681 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 1: were convicted of a crime yourself, then hey, maybe the 682 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 1: record is sort of just naturally being Yeah, I would 683 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 1: love to hear like a ninety year old convicts feelings 684 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:42,520 Speaker 1: on that, but I don't know any Well, back to 685 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 1: our story, or speaking speaking of Marion Rogers, what happened 686 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,319 Speaker 1: to him? Yeah, well, after the trial he left town 687 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:53,040 Speaker 1: again resumed his itinerant lifestyle. In nineteen thirty two, though 688 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: he was found the line by the side of a road, 689 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 1: half dead, and he died two days later of appendicitis 690 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,839 Speaker 1: and exposure. Till a Ruminer went on to get married, 691 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 1: had some kids, and beyond that she just sort of 692 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 1: dropped back into obscurity and I know no more of 693 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 1: what happened to her. So Also the tiny hamlet of 694 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 1: Red Stripe, Oh yeah, awesome name. That's a great name. Yeah, 695 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:17,279 Speaker 1: that's where the murder supposedly took place, or nearby anyway, Yeah, 696 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,479 Speaker 1: on the road to it or outside. It's still there, 697 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 1: but after the trial they changed her name to Pleasant 698 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 1: Grove because of all the negative publicity. Nice, I like again, 699 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 1: and you can find it's still there just typing pleasant Grove, Yeah, 700 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:31,359 Speaker 1: and it pops right up. Oh yeah, actually I did 701 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 1: that and I found it actually super far from more. 702 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:35,800 Speaker 1: A friend of mine grow really she's from that area. 703 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 1: Governor of Arkansas publicly now suppressed for their behavior and 704 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:42,480 Speaker 1: said that they had made the citizens of North Arkansas 705 00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:45,280 Speaker 1: had to be hayses and idiots. As I said earlier, 706 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 1: the story really does appear to have had a cultural 707 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:51,239 Speaker 1: impact and cementing the image of rural America's backward and 708 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 1: ignorant in the minds of city as well as with 709 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,080 Speaker 1: a special place reserved for the Hillbills of the Ozark 710 00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,840 Speaker 1: who really were described in the national papers as depraved, 711 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:03,400 Speaker 1: your literate morons. Uh, there is a There was a 712 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 1: guy named Brooks Blevin's he u is or was at 713 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 1: least a professor at University of Missouri or no, excuse me, 714 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,640 Speaker 1: Missouri State University. He wrote a book about this case 715 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 1: called Ghosts of the Ozarks, and I read an article 716 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 1: that he wrote about this as well. I wanted to 717 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,480 Speaker 1: quote when this real quick like um talks about the 718 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,960 Speaker 1: writing of one Kansas city journalists who went in went 719 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 1: in town and basically sent out reports that were picked 720 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 1: up by papers all across the nation. November is a 721 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:37,920 Speaker 1: quote now from Brooks Blevins On November nine, the Journal 722 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,440 Speaker 1: Post banner headlines set the tone for the weeks to follow. 723 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,960 Speaker 1: Quote Ozark murder reveals system of p NH barons said 724 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,560 Speaker 1: to be back of brutal crime unquote. Secret went on 725 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 1: to spin a tale of feudal oppression and privilege and 726 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:53,400 Speaker 1: is in an Ozark land of illiteracy and violence places 727 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,839 Speaker 1: inhabitants quote knowledge of Christmas is almost as limited as 728 00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: their idea of what Thanksgiving is intended to convey unquote. 729 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,800 Speaker 1: Vote and in isolated hamlet called Saint James, the caball 730 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:06,279 Speaker 1: of baronial families ruled with quote the hickory stick and 731 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 1: the squirrel rifle unquote. That's just that's just a pretty 732 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:15,359 Speaker 1: um um hate. His charges against the entire community, the 733 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,279 Speaker 1: entire county, of the entire state. I mean, you know, 734 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 1: and this was picked up again and reprinted in papers 735 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 1: all around America. I mean, that's one way to frame it. 736 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:26,239 Speaker 1: But I think you know, you're, you're you're laying bear 737 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 1: a pretty a pretty terrible bias. These are hard working 738 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,759 Speaker 1: farmers who are people, aren't that. Yeah, they're poor, and 739 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:34,879 Speaker 1: they don't have the best education, and they probably are 740 00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:37,760 Speaker 1: doing some moonshining, but they're trying to get by. Yeah, 741 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 1: and yeah, you know, you could easily just flip that 742 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:43,879 Speaker 1: D and eight degrees talking about the same people doing 743 00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:45,600 Speaker 1: the same things. Now all of a sudden, they're salt 744 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:49,120 Speaker 1: of the earth, hard working agricultural Americans. Yeah, yeah, it 745 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 1: really is. I mean, this is like, I don't know, 746 00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,080 Speaker 1: if you know. I mean, in a sense, this kind 747 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 1: of comes down to like basic human nature, which is 748 00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:57,680 Speaker 1: that we all want to have somebody that we can 749 00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:02,319 Speaker 1: look down our names act exactly. It's totally true, right, Yeah, 750 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:04,800 Speaker 1: we've all got up and so you're living in the city, 751 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:06,880 Speaker 1: and maybe you don't have the best job, you're not 752 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,480 Speaker 1: that rich yourself, you live in a crappy neighborhood. But 753 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:13,160 Speaker 1: there's somebody. There's somebody, you know. It was just worse 754 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,400 Speaker 1: than you are somebody up in the mountains playing a 755 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,560 Speaker 1: French harbor. Uh. Yeah, So here's a question for you. 756 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:21,719 Speaker 1: Would Deliverance have been written and what the movie Deliverance 757 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:25,400 Speaker 1: had been made? Yea, if this incident had not taken place, 758 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:27,600 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, well okay, So, like like I was 759 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 1: saying earlier, you know, what did I yeah, other than 760 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,640 Speaker 1: Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton, what did I know about 761 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 1: Arkansas Georgia? Actually? Yeah, so yeah, that's built. And actually Hillary, 762 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,240 Speaker 1: Hillary is not even a product of Arkansas from Chicago 763 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:44,840 Speaker 1: or OK, I think it was Illinois. Yeah, I know, 764 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,520 Speaker 1: she's not an Arkansas person. She didn't like Arkansas very much, 765 00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:51,360 Speaker 1: apparently not. And so yeah, so so prior to Bill Clinton, 766 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:53,960 Speaker 1: what is a young man? What the heck did I 767 00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:56,799 Speaker 1: even know about what went on in Arkansas? I knew 768 00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:00,160 Speaker 1: one thing, deliverance. Yeah, Deliverance was the one that's out 769 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,400 Speaker 1: of the impression of and and and so, you know, 770 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:04,239 Speaker 1: people like you and me, that's what we know about 771 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 1: these people as deliverance. While people backing on it in 772 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,840 Speaker 1: the one thing they knew about these people was the 773 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:14,440 Speaker 1: Arkansas ghosts and all these to pray morons and the 774 00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,360 Speaker 1: murder morons. It kind of has, you know, the story 775 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:18,759 Speaker 1: of like a you know, you can picture that sort 776 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,760 Speaker 1: of the archetype of like a country kangaroo court. Yeah, 777 00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:24,880 Speaker 1: you know, you're on trial for the murder of Connie Franklin, 778 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:29,400 Speaker 1: who said right there. It really doesn't paint them in 779 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,640 Speaker 1: a good light. It's it is uh yeah, it is 780 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:35,360 Speaker 1: a yeah, it's just strange all the way around. I 781 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,279 Speaker 1: can't blame these people for being embarrassed a little bit. Yeah. No, 782 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:41,440 Speaker 1: it's nest to be embarrassed about that, because when you 783 00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:43,840 Speaker 1: think about it, I mean, there's so many dumbass stories 784 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:46,359 Speaker 1: out there in human history, all over this, all over 785 00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:49,000 Speaker 1: the world that you know they're they're not that special, 786 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 1: you know. You know the thought I had, Joe, uh 787 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,320 Speaker 1: we're reading about this thing about your deliverance and Arkansas 788 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:56,800 Speaker 1: and stuff, is you know how many people are in 789 00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,400 Speaker 1: the exact reverse thing, right, So, like you're from somewhere 790 00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:04,320 Speaker 1: in Oregon, from some farming community in eastern Oregon, from Boardman, 791 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:07,399 Speaker 1: let's say, and you meet somebody from out of state, 792 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:09,520 Speaker 1: and what do they know? They know Portlandia, so they 793 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:11,960 Speaker 1: assume you're like a hipster with a handled bar mustache 794 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,239 Speaker 1: and a top hat. And you're like, no, like I 795 00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:17,399 Speaker 1: work on a watermelon farm, or I'm you know, I 796 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,239 Speaker 1: work at the port or I'm I'm down there doing 797 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:23,439 Speaker 1: wheat or something, wheat and potatoes. Yeah, I know, people, well, 798 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,120 Speaker 1: people like you know that, you know, I'm from Portland. 799 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:28,359 Speaker 1: I live in Portland, and people assume that I'm on 800 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:31,520 Speaker 1: board with all the general you know, Portland need nous 801 00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:33,279 Speaker 1: and I ride a bike and I'm a hipster. You 802 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:36,200 Speaker 1: know and all this stuff now not actually, actually I'm 803 00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:40,520 Speaker 1: not not exactly the stereotypical, and neither are most people, 804 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,040 Speaker 1: which I mean, yeah, so one stereotypes are generally like 805 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:47,759 Speaker 1: totally inaccurate, right. But then also, a story, whether it's 806 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:49,960 Speaker 1: a true story or whether it's a you know, it's 807 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:52,759 Speaker 1: a narrative of some kind, can can paint people with 808 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:54,759 Speaker 1: a with a brush that's not always fair to them. 809 00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,120 Speaker 1: That's not always that the story. It's not fair. And 810 00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:00,359 Speaker 1: these people had and they have had since they've had 811 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,280 Speaker 1: very little in the way of a voice to counteract 812 00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:05,680 Speaker 1: this whole thing. And there's been there's been just no 813 00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:08,920 Speaker 1: end of people, you know, writing stories about them and 814 00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:11,839 Speaker 1: making fun of them. And if one of these people 815 00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 1: wanted to write a book making fun of New Yorker 816 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:16,040 Speaker 1: as well, who would publish it and who would read it? 817 00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:20,239 Speaker 1: So you know, it's been a one sided fight. Yeah, yeah, yeah, No, 818 00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:22,000 Speaker 1: it's kind of too bad, which I think is it's 819 00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:23,840 Speaker 1: too bad because there could be a city with a 820 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,200 Speaker 1: cool name like Red Stripe. Red Stripe had to go away, 821 00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:30,480 Speaker 1: and that's sad. But back in Stone County, Arkansas, the 822 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:33,920 Speaker 1: legend of the Arkansas Ghost lives on even if none 823 00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:35,560 Speaker 1: of the rest of us have heard about it. Well, 824 00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:39,439 Speaker 1: you've heard about it now and that's another story another week, 825 00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,320 Speaker 1: so we will see you next time. Please stay tuned. 826 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:44,279 Speaker 1: We've got a few important facts to tell you and 827 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:46,839 Speaker 1: otherwise we'll see you next week. All right, Thanks a lot. 828 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:51,040 Speaker 1: This has been Shocking Details. I'm shocked. I'm shocked. If 829 00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:52,680 Speaker 1: you'd like to get ahold of us, so, you can 830 00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:56,200 Speaker 1: send us an email at the Shocking Details Podcast at 831 00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:59,080 Speaker 1: gmail dot com. You can also check out our website 832 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:03,200 Speaker 1: that's dub dub dub the Shocking Details dot com. We're 833 00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:06,279 Speaker 1: on Twitter that would be at Shocking Details and of 834 00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:10,279 Speaker 1: course we're also on Facebook. Go to Facebook dot com, 835 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:15,880 Speaker 1: slash groups slash Shocking Details Podcast until next week to 836 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:16,319 Speaker 1: the loop.