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Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to

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Speaker 1: the show. Thank you, as always so much Ridiculous Historians

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Speaker 1: for joining us. Let's hear it for the man the

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Speaker 1: myth our super producer mister Max Williams Imax. All right, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're getting some snapping fingers. This is part two of

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Speaker 1: a continuing exploration. The guy who just said Imax is

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Speaker 1: mister Noel Brown, none other than.

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Speaker 2: Oh thanks buddy, You're welcome, Buckeroo.

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Speaker 1: They called me Ben Bullen in this part of the world,

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Speaker 1: and Noel, if we could do a previous on Ridiculous History,

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Speaker 1: the smoke Monster was bullsh wasn't anything, well, it was

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Speaker 1: the thing. It was the man in Black, it was

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Speaker 1: you know, that's the show Lost, which dated references.

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Speaker 2: But that's what we're here for. No, it's true.

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Speaker 3: We did previously on Ridiculous History talk with the brilliant

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Speaker 3: and lovely doctor Jorge at Sham, who helped us navigate

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Speaker 3: the universe a little bit, from the Big Bang to

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Speaker 3: the singularities to AI and the way that artificial intelligence

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Speaker 3: may well be close to, if not already at a

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Speaker 3: place where it resembles the human brain.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that is true. And Noel, as you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: really proud of you and Maxim myself for being quite

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Speaker 1: transparent and forthright with the fact that we are ourselves

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Speaker 1: not experts.

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Speaker 2: Folks.

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Speaker 1: We know everybody enjoyed the first part of our conversations

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Speaker 1: with doctor or a Champ, and believe it or not,

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Speaker 1: we were able to get Orgey back for another episode

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Speaker 1: or Hey, welcome, thank you for joining us.

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Speaker 4: Hey, super fun to be here. Thanks for having me back.

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Speaker 3: Of course, of course you're helping us out as well.

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Speaker 3: We love a good two part, especially one that we

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Speaker 3: decide on in advance.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and this will be the Empire Streks back of podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Oh, that's the film. It's a universe.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about the history of what we call the

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Speaker 1: Big Bang in our previous exploration, which led us to,

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Speaker 1: as you were saying, Noel, an exploration of so called

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Speaker 1: artificial intelligence, the nature of reality, the observable universe. And

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Speaker 1: we tease just a bit episode two. This is our

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Speaker 1: exploration of the ridiculous history of a thing that studies

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Speaker 1: itself the science of the human brain. So real quick

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Speaker 1: I could if we could open it up this way, Orgey,

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Speaker 1: just small talk, What is the human brain.

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Speaker 4: Was this little about sixty eight pound organ that you

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Speaker 4: have in your head. And it's just another organ in

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Speaker 4: your head.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 4: It's a lump of fleshy stuff that basically makes who

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Speaker 4: you are happen, Like your conscious experience, all your memories,

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Speaker 4: how you feel, that's all happening in that little gelatinous

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Speaker 4: blob inside your skull.

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Speaker 3: I've always felt calling the brain an organ was selling

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Speaker 3: it short just a little bit. When I think of

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Speaker 3: an organ, I guess I think of just like guts.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's important. But the brain is a very

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Speaker 3: peculiar and powerful and incredible organ.

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Speaker 4: It is it is. People say it's the most complex

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Speaker 4: organization of matter that we know about in the whole universe.

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Speaker 2: And it's also the biggest erogenoist zone.

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Speaker 4: In the human we go. It's the biggest everything zone.

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Speaker 4: Basically hunger, heye, love, it's all happening in your head.

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Speaker 1: Now, this is fascinating. I love that phrase because we

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Speaker 1: also have to acknowledge an inherent dilemma. We're asking a

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Speaker 1: thing to research and explain itself, to measure itself. Could

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Speaker 1: you tell us a little bit about the philosophical quandaries

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Speaker 1: involved with that like because ordinarily, you know, if you

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Speaker 1: asked if you asked a duck its opinion about ducks,

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Speaker 1: you would get a weird you know, not completely objective.

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Speaker 4: Right, right, right, and everyone knows are just a bunch

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Speaker 4: of quacks. Now it's a super interesting philosophical conversation, right,

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Speaker 4: because right, there's eighty six billion neurons in your head,

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Speaker 4: and so the idea that eighty six billion neurons could

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Speaker 4: ever really really understand what's happening in eighty six billion neurons,

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Speaker 4: even if somebody else's eighty six billionaires, it's sort of impossible, right.

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Speaker 4: It's sort of like a car understanding a car, or

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Speaker 4: you know, a switch understanding a switch. So it's probably

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Speaker 4: not possible for the human brain to really understand everything

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Speaker 4: that's going on in your brain, like down to the tee.

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Speaker 4: But you know, we have science, and so we can

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Speaker 4: make kind of generalizations, we can make certain rules, we

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Speaker 4: can understand the general structure and organization of the brain,

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Speaker 4: but like totally understanding the brain and predicting what it's

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Speaker 4: going to do, it's probably impossible for our brains. But

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Speaker 4: you can imagine, like maybe aliens who have four hundred

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Speaker 4: billion neurons, you know them, we might be like, oh,

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Speaker 4: look at these cats, you know, running around, We can

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Speaker 4: totally understand what's going on in their heads.

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Speaker 1: So this leads us to the ridiculous history of neuroscience

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Speaker 1: or brain science. Could you tell us a little bit

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Speaker 1: about the first I guess there was a moment in

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Speaker 1: human civilization, or a series of moments more accurately, wherein

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Speaker 1: people realized this gelatinous blob in their head was doing something.

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Speaker 1: We're under the impression that for a lot of human history,

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Speaker 1: various cultures believed that the soul or the consciousness maybe

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Speaker 1: resided in other organs, like the heart or the I'll

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Speaker 1: say it, sorry, substitute teachers, genitalia.

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Speaker 4: Was there a lot of it? A lot of our

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Speaker 4: actions do come.

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Speaker 2: From it's like a second brain.

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Speaker 1: So what was there any sort of inflection point or

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Speaker 1: crossroads in history of humans where they started to look

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Speaker 1: at the brain as a seat of consciousness.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, now, yeah, it's a pretty interesting history because,

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Speaker 4: as you mentioned, probably for most of human history, we

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Speaker 4: had no idea what was going on inside of our bodies.

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Speaker 4: How though our bodies work, much less how our brains

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Speaker 4: worked or what it did Aristotle back in the ancient

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Speaker 4: Greek era. Uh, basically agree with what you just said,

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Speaker 4: which is he thought that everything that makes us who

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Speaker 4: we are is in our hearts, like in our chest.

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Speaker 4: And he thought that the brain was really just like

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Speaker 4: a radiator, like a brain just there to like cool people. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: jes United has all these like lumps and wriggles like

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Speaker 4: that would make sense, right kind of.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, maybe dissipute the heat like coils like coils in.

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Speaker 4: Area, Yeah, yeah, like increasing the surface area.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 4: And if you think about it, it kind of makes sense, right,

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Speaker 4: Like if you are designing a human being, Like, why

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Speaker 4: would you put the most important part on this little

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Speaker 4: like appendage sitting at the top, you know, exposed to

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Speaker 4: Yeah it's exposed. Yeah yeah what did you put it?

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Speaker 4: Like in the chest right protected by ribs and organs

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Speaker 4: Like that would make a little bit more sense. But no,

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Speaker 4: it's like it's sticking up in our hands. It's a

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Speaker 4: little peninsula on the box. Yeah yeah, so easy to

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Speaker 4: knock or or chop off. So he didn't quite have

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Speaker 4: it right, But people think that maybe the Egyptians knew

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Speaker 4: a little bit more about the brain. So there's this

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Speaker 4: famous papyrus papyrus scroll, yeah, that they found made by

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Speaker 4: the ancient Egyptians where they kind of like documented medical cases.

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Speaker 4: It's called the Edwin Smith Papyrus.

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Speaker 2: Yes, like the thought yeah.

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Speaker 4: Oh that's another brain game right there. So we know,

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Speaker 4: like the Addigus catalog all these medical things like oh,

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Speaker 4: if you break an arm, this is what happens. If

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Speaker 4: you sever your spinacle, this is what happened. And there's

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Speaker 4: like an entry number twenty in this squirrel that says,

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Speaker 4: you know, if you get hit in the head card,

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Speaker 4: we know that sometimes you can lose the ability to talk.

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Speaker 4: So like in their heads they're thinking, oh, your brain

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Speaker 4: is good for things like talking. So that's kind of

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Speaker 4: like the earliest we think kind of a record of

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Speaker 4: people humans kind of understanding what the brain is doing.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow.

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Speaker 1: And this this also reminds us clearly of a similar

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Speaker 1: practice indicative of recognizing the importance of the brain as

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Speaker 1: an organ, which is the practice of trepan nation, right. Uh,

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Speaker 1: trepanation being.

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Speaker 2: The demons.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, venting relieving pleasure, yeah, drilling a

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Speaker 1: physical hole somewhere in the cranium. I think for a

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Speaker 1: lot of us lay for the primary amazing thing about

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Speaker 1: the practice of trapanation is that people survived somehow.

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Speaker 4: Yeah right, Yeah, it's wild. Basically, there's not much activity

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Speaker 4: going on like understanding the brain up until about the

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Speaker 4: eighteen hundreds, and that's when people really started to record

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Speaker 4: things like hey, if you open up your skull and

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Speaker 4: you dig a hole through here, this can happen. Or

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Speaker 4: if you open up this part of the brain and

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Speaker 4: you kind of like mess around with it or apply

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Speaker 4: electricity like that, your arm will move and so yeah,

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Speaker 4: so that's one of the things that people did in

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Speaker 4: the eighteen hundreds, which which opened up your brain and

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Speaker 4: pok it. And it's sort of dubious to us.

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Speaker 2: Now that's not to say.

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Speaker 3: Syram that gave us that information, but which is often

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Speaker 3: the case with early discovery, it's like, yeah, you know,

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Speaker 3: you gotta break a few eggs to make a science online.

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Speaker 4: Be a little bit of a mad scientist. Yeah, but

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Speaker 4: it taught us a lot, Like it started to kind

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Speaker 4: of piece everything together. People started to figure out, oh,

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Speaker 4: like the brain has parts. You know, it's not just

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Speaker 4: like one giant computer chip. It's got like a little

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Speaker 4: processor for this over here and a little processor for

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Speaker 4: that out over there, and so that's kind of how

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Speaker 4: it started, really kind of ramping up the history of

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Speaker 4: brain science.

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Speaker 1: Now we're talking the eighteen hundreds at this point, which

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Speaker 1: means from what Noel and I understand, this means this happens,

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Speaker 1: this great scientific inquiry occurs in the same sort of

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Speaker 1: historical milieu as a lot of quack science. Right, I

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Speaker 1: guess we should talk about phrenology a little bit.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well it's it's sort of a it's

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Speaker 4: a bit of a sketchy thing to delineate between quack

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Speaker 4: science and really thought right, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 4: Like back then, it's like it's like accusing a cavement

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Speaker 4: of not being good scientists. You know, they just didn't know,

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Speaker 4: and so they were just trying all these different theories.

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Speaker 4: They had all these ideas. They were going on vibes

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Speaker 4: basically vibes, and yeah, it's a Phrenology was a huge

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Speaker 4: deal in the eighteen hundreds. People thought that, you know,

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Speaker 4: there was this idea that the brain is mapped, like

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Speaker 4: there's areas that do different things. But so people would

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Speaker 4: just guess, like, oh, the part of the back part of

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Speaker 4: your rank, that's where that's where your love is located

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Speaker 4: and the front part is where your egoism is located,

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Speaker 4: and so they just if you look it up phrenology,

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Speaker 4: there's all these like maps. I think most people have

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Speaker 4: probably have probably seen them, just like a human head

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Speaker 4: with like areas kind of like a like a meat

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Speaker 4: diagram and a cow for one little.

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Speaker 2: Regions where the tenderline is exactly.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: And that was informed, unfortunately by a lot of confirmation bias,

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Speaker 1: we could argue from Western Europe at the time, wherein

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Speaker 1: people would say, oh, we've made this rough Butcher's diagram

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Speaker 1: or topography of a cranium, and based on this bump,

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Speaker 1: this guy is going to be good at what's a

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Speaker 1: silly thing to be good at?

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Speaker 2: In the unicycle.

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Speaker 1: This guy's great at unicycles. Yeah, look at the other bump,

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Speaker 1: you know, right there by the temple. This is our

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Speaker 1: unicyclist juggler phrenology.

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Speaker 2: Jorge.

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Speaker 1: Was it widely accepted in its day.

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Speaker 4: I think it was, you know, as accepted as like

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Speaker 4: you know, somebody selling tonics, you know, going from town

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Speaker 4: to town in the Old West selling tonics to rejuvenate

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Speaker 4: your vigor or something like that. You know, it's something

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Speaker 4: that people weren't quite sure it was true or not,

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Speaker 4: and some people claim that they were starting up it

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Speaker 4: and you know, people rolled the dice.

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Speaker 3: Not a far jump from things like the humors, you know,

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Speaker 3: the idea of leeching and blood letting in order to

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Speaker 3: balance out these supposed you know, materials within the body.

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Speaker 3: And then honestly, I'm not trying to poop anybody's beliefs here,

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Speaker 3: but not too too far off from things like chakras

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Speaker 3: and meridian lines in some you know, Eastern medicine that

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Speaker 3: some people think is quackery and some people swear by.

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Speaker 3: So I mean, it's just interesting the way some of

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Speaker 3: that stuff is still around and believed in or not

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Speaker 3: believed in depending.

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Speaker 4: No, no, that stuff is quackery.

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Speaker 2: No okay, Oh the.

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Speaker 1: Professor came out on that one.

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Speaker 4: No fense to the Crystal fans.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, we just being diplomatic.

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Speaker 1: We are being diplomatic, and we we share the same pursuits,

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Speaker 1: which is always going to be hopefully the collective, objective

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Speaker 1: interrogation of the world around us and within us. One

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Speaker 1: thing we were talking about a little bit off air.

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Speaker 1: It pertained to some some just phenomenal and again, as

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Speaker 1: you said Jorge. Ethically, dubious learnings that came. You mentioned

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Speaker 1: the earlier realization from humanity that certain parts of the

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Speaker 1: brain function in certain ways right and excel in certain things.

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Speaker 1: And at the end of our first conversation we introduced

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Speaker 1: a patient who for a long time was simply known

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Speaker 1: as HM, and HM, as we find, is pivotal to neuroscience,

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Speaker 1: perhaps because of well, gosh, can we tell can we

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Speaker 1: tell the story? Yes, super fasting story. This was a

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Speaker 1: little bit later. This was in the nineteen thirties that

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Speaker 1: this man came about. His name was Henry Malaysan, but

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Speaker 1: for a long time people didn't know his name because

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Speaker 1: when you become a medical subject, they kind of make

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Speaker 1: you anonymous. So for a long time, for many years,

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Speaker 1: he was just known as patient AHM. And so this

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Speaker 1: was a guy who had a lot of seizures as

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Speaker 1: a kid. Some people think it maybe happened after he

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Speaker 1: had like a bike accident and then he knocked his head.

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Speaker 1: Some people think he was just kind of he just

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Speaker 1: had these seizures for no reason. So it's not quite

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Speaker 1: clear how or why he got these features, but they

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Speaker 1: were like super intense, like he couldn't really function it

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Speaker 1: would really kind of make him not able to have

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Speaker 1: a job or go to school or things like that.

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Speaker 4: And at the time, as you said, the doctors were like, oh,

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Speaker 4: I know how to cure it this. I'll just poke

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Speaker 4: a hole in your head and mess around with it.

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Speaker 4: And so a common procedure back then was basically a lobotomy,

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Speaker 4: Like they would just kind of stick this long needle

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Speaker 4: kind of through your eye socket, did you like move

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Speaker 4: your eye a little bit out of the way, and

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Speaker 4: then you stick it in there and then kind of

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Speaker 4: mess around. And what they did for him specifically was

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Speaker 4: they destroyed most of his hippocampus, so like deep inside

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Speaker 4: your brain you have this little these little lumps called

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Speaker 4: the hippocampus. And you know, his seizures were so severe

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Speaker 4: that this doctor called Williams Coville thought that he needed

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Speaker 4: to take out both his hippocampus, and so he did.

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Speaker 4: And the amazing thing is it sort of worked, like

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Speaker 4: his seizure stopped. But unfortunately it had a bad side effect,

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Speaker 4: which is that Henry Molaysan was not able to make

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Speaker 4: new memories. So like he remembered his whole life, his childhood,

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Speaker 4: you know, his early adulthood, right up until the day

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Speaker 4: he had his surgery. But after that he couldn't remember

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Speaker 4: more than thirty minutes at a time.

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Speaker 1: He couldn't encode information.

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Speaker 4: Right, Like if you met him and you said hey,

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Speaker 4: and he like, he could tell you where he grew up,

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Speaker 4: who his mother was, and everything, but thirty minutes later

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Speaker 4: he would totally forget he met you, Or thirty minutes later,

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Speaker 4: he couldn't tell you how he got to where he was,

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Speaker 4: what he had for breakfast, you know, any he couldn't

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Speaker 4: tell you anything beyond thirty minutes ago.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, we've all met executive producers and before you see.

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Speaker 4: A botimized Oh.

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Speaker 1: So this this is a moment of tremendous significance to

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Speaker 1: the history of neuroscience when and first off, him's existence

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Speaker 1: at this point is cursed. You mentioned earlier that this

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Speaker 1: was this was a primary source for the film Momento.

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Speaker 2: Is that correct?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, the Christopher Nolan film The When He Got kind

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Speaker 4: Of I got famous for initially Memento. It was this

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Speaker 4: guy who basically lived this life, but in our modern

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Speaker 4: world right now and so he couldn't remember more than

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Speaker 4: thirty minutes ago, and so and so that movie's kind

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Speaker 4: of told backwards in time. It's like he's you're sort

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Speaker 4: of living the movie like he is living in It's like, oh,

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Speaker 4: I'm here, Why am I here? I don't know why

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Speaker 4: I'm here? And then you flash back to like thirty

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Speaker 4: minutes ago to figure out how he got there, and

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Speaker 4: then you keep flashing back thirty minutes at a time.

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Speaker 4: That's the movie. And this guy like actually lifted. He

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Speaker 4: just woke up every day and thirty minutes the world

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Speaker 4: was brand new to him.

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Speaker 2: That's a good yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I don't know if that's like terrifying or

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Speaker 3: kind of awesome, but now I think it's terrifying.

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Speaker 2: I don't think it would a good way to experience

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Speaker 2: the world.

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Speaker 4: Well, it wouldn't make you useful for pretty much anything

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Speaker 4: except subject There's.

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Speaker 3: There's something to be said about, like, you know, if

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Speaker 3: we could just wipe our memories or do a little reset.

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Speaker 2: But no, I'm sorry not making life.

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Speaker 3: This is a very very serious condition, but one that

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Speaker 3: shut up lot of light on some things that didn't

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Speaker 3: require people to go necessarily digging around in people's brains, right.

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Speaker 4: Right, right, yeah. In particularly, she had a lot of

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Speaker 4: light on how memory works in our brain, so, like

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Speaker 4: before this patient, mostly people thought that memory was something

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Speaker 4: that was spread across your brain, Like people thought your

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Speaker 4: brain was used to giant kind of a computer ship

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Speaker 4: and you had just like you know, you store memories

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Speaker 4: in a little bit here, a little bit there, a

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Speaker 4: little bit everywhere. It's just kind of like evenly spread out.

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Speaker 4: But what was fascinating about patient HM is that he

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Speaker 4: could remember his childhood, his early adulthood. He couldn't make

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Speaker 4: me memories, but you could teach him motor skills like

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Speaker 4: he could. Yeah, Like you could teach him how to

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Speaker 4: play tennis, and the first day he would be terrible

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Speaker 4: at it, but if he kept practicing, he would get

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Speaker 4: better at it, but he wouldn't remember having practice.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 1: So every time this guy, for example, plays tennis, he's

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Speaker 1: just a little bit better, right, but he doesn't know why.

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Speaker 2: He's just really good at it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Like you know, by session thirty, I imagine, right,

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Speaker 4: this is hypothetically because I don't think they really has

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Speaker 4: them to play tennis, But like by session thirty, he'd

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Speaker 4: be like, you know, hitting aces and returning loves and

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Speaker 4: he'd be like, oh my god, I had no idea

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Speaker 4: I could play tennis. That was basically his experience.

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Speaker 1: I hope he has a I hope he has a

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Speaker 1: lived perception that he is a virtuoso. You know what

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Speaker 1: I mean, because it's always the first thirty minutes that

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Speaker 1: he's played tennis.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, right right, But then in the next session if

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Speaker 4: he doesn't play tennis, he has no idea he's good

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Speaker 4: to play tennis.

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Speaker 1: Al true periodic victory.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, real conundrum.

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Speaker 3: So what did this teach us though about the brain?

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Speaker 3: That there are certain things that could not be recalled,

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Speaker 3: but yet certain things had a bit more of a

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Speaker 3: sense memory perhaps.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Mainly what it taught people is that there are

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Speaker 4: different kinds of memory. Like I think most people who

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Speaker 4: are listening to about short term memory long term memory.

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Speaker 4: So those are two separate things in your brain. But

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Speaker 4: for a long time, we didn't know that, and we

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Speaker 4: didn't know there was such a thing as motor memory.

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Speaker 4: Like when you like your signature, you can do you

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Speaker 4: write your signature without thinking about it. It's just in

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Speaker 4: your muscle memory. Or some people can play the piano

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Speaker 4: with is your muscle memory. So that's in a different

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Speaker 4: part of your brain than the long term. The short

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Speaker 4: term even your verbal and language all that is just

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Speaker 4: in separate areas. It's still in areas, but it's a

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Speaker 4: little bit more spread out of the brain. And so

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Speaker 4: that's kind of what it unlocked for scientists is like,

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Speaker 4: oh wait, memory is not just this like one hard drive.

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Speaker 4: It's like a whole bunch of little hard drive and

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Speaker 4: a whole bunch of different ways that memories gets stored.

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Speaker 1: So that teaches us as well about that reminds us

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Speaker 1: of things like what is it called broksophasia or something?

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Speaker 1: So patient HM was capable of retaining and speaking the

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Speaker 1: language she had learned in his childhood. What we're talking about,

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Speaker 1: we talk about brocos of phasia is of course the

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Speaker 1: breakdown of as you said, Jorge, a different version of

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Speaker 1: the hard drive, right, the one that controls linguistic aptitude.

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Speaker 1: Did he I don't know the answer. I'm asking honestly,

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Speaker 1: did sense memory impact anything?

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Speaker 2: Like?

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Speaker 1: Could he the same way he was hypothetically taught to

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Speaker 1: be good at tennis? Could he be taught to and

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Speaker 1: we're breaking tons of ethical experimentation laws on this, but

400
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Speaker 1: could you possibly teach this patient to be avoidant of

401
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Speaker 1: or attracted to, say, a certain stimuli like a smell

402
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Speaker 1: and then wait for that reset in the brain function.

403
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Speaker 1: You know, is this guy? Is it possible to make

404
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Speaker 1: a world where this guy is waking up experiencing lucidity

405
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Speaker 1: every thirty minutes and now he just hates the No,

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Speaker 1: what's a good smell to hate? Oh, my gosh, the

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Speaker 1: smell of coffee, like coffee, coffee, coffee is a great one.

408
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Speaker 1: Is it possible to uh, would it be possible to

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Speaker 1: teach sense memory in an olfactory way or what does

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Speaker 1: that take? Right?

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Speaker 4: I think the idea is that he couldn't make long

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Speaker 4: term memories, so and I'm not sure that like our

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Speaker 4: associations with certain smells, I'm not sure quite sure where

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Speaker 4: that is in the brain. So it might some of

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Speaker 4: it might be in our long term memory, in which

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Speaker 4: case he couldn't. You couldn't train that in him. But

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Speaker 4: some of it might be automatic, in which case you

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Speaker 4: probably could.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: That is fascinating, and it occurs in step with we

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Speaker 1: wanted to ask you about this with another pivotal moment

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Speaker 1: in neuroscience understanding and and folks, by the way, I

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Speaker 1: feel like we've been very very clear about this. Do

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Speaker 1: not try this at home, no matter how mad you

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Speaker 1: are at your sibling. Do not try this at home.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: There is another case that occurred in the eighteen hundreds,

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Speaker 1: so a little bit prior to HM, the infamous Phineas Gauge.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, railroad tie.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah.

431
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Speaker 4: So Finished Gage was a railroad worker. He's just a

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Speaker 4: regular dude in eighteen mid eighteen hundreds up there in Vermont,

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Speaker 4: and you know, by all accounts, he was a nice guy,

434
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Speaker 4: you know, lived his life, worked hard. One day, he

435
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Speaker 4: was like installing these long metal rods on a rock

436
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Speaker 4: to make way for like a railroad. And what they

437
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Speaker 4: do is they pack some dynamite in there, they stick

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00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 4: the rod, and then they light the fuse and then

439
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 4: that blows up the rock. What could go wrong? Right,

440
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 4: thing exploded on him and this meter long iron rod

441
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 4: basically went through his head. So he kind of went

442
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:12,719
Speaker 4: in through his left cheek, kind of up and above,

443
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 4: kind of behind his eyeballs, through the front part of

444
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:20,160
Speaker 4: his brain, and then it came out the top. Gar

445
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 4: He did not. He survived, that is the fascinating thing.

446
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 4: And so he got better and everyone's like, oh, oh

447
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 4: my god, that's amazing. He's a miracle. I guess the

448
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 4: brain is not that important. For take away. Yeah, for

449
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,360
Speaker 4: a long time, he was basically used as an example

450
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 4: of like, oh, the brain is like, you know, just

451
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 4: one big amorsive most mass, and if you lose a

452
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 4: little bit, it's like, you know, you lose a little bit,

453
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 4: but whatever, your brain has the risk of itself to

454
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 4: like make you who you are. And so he's revived.

455
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 4: People thought he was fine, but literally little people sort

456
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 4: of realized there was something a little off about him,

457
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 4: like he quite wasn't quite himself like he reportedly, he

458
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 4: just had like a he kind of basically became an

459
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:10,680
Speaker 4: a hole.

460
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:11,919
Speaker 2: I don't know if I can say that.

461
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, he had a he had a market change in

462
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 1: his temperance, right he was he was now seen as yeah,

463
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,440
Speaker 1: like you said, a whole and thank you for keeping

464
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:26,400
Speaker 1: it a family show.

465
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 4: But he was not a nice guy. Not a nice guy.

466
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 2: Oh by all accounts.

467
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 3: Before that though, he was a perfectly nice fellow, a

468
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 3: hard worker, like you said, and in fun and fine

469
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 3: to be around, jovial. And then after this people started

470
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 3: noticing that something in his personality had shifted.

471
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 4: You know, Yeah, his personality had shifted from being like

472
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 4: a nice guy to like being very ill tempered, like

473
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 4: he just grumpy all the time. But and then beyond

474
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 4: his personality, he also kind of had a little bit

475
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 4: of ADHD now, like he could he find it hard

476
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 4: to focus, He couldn't really concentrate, and so he's just

477
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,400
Speaker 4: he was just kind of like a frustrated person all

478
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 4: the time. And you know, people who knew me were like,

479
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 4: this is not the same person. And so only later

480
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 4: when the people realize, like, oh, this is perfectly explained

481
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 4: because the front part of your brain, that's kind of

482
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:18,159
Speaker 4: where your personality is and where your ability to focus is.

483
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 4: So that was another big part of kind of like

484
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 4: mapping the brain and figuring out that there are parts

485
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 4: to it that do different things and which parts do

486
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 4: different things.

487
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 3: I gotta say, there's a really great episode of our

488
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 3: sister podcast, Stuff You Missed in History Class, all about

489
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 3: Phineas Gage back in the Archives. I remember back when

490
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 3: I produced that show, that was the first time I'd

491
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 3: heard of him, and I thought it was super fascinating.

492
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 3: So do check that one out for a deep dive

493
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 3: on this fascinating character.

494
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 1: Also fascinating to borrow that word there. It's also fascinating

495
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 1: that his treating physician was a guy named jam Horlow

496
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 1: and jam Harlow, like many Western physicians of his day,

497
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 1: held in abiding interest in phrenology. So maybe if you are,

498
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 1: if you are a boffin or a doctor of the day,

499
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 1: maybe it's not the fact that this meter long rod

500
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 1: went through the front part of this human brain, it's

501
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 1: that it altered the shape of the cranium. So now

502
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 1: he doesn't have good guy bumps.

503
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 4: Well, what's interesting is that, you know, this idea sounds crazy, right,

504
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 4: like you could judge how a brain works by how

505
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 4: well brain is good at something by its shape. But

506
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 4: that's actually something they found kind of in the nineties

507
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 4: early two thousands, was that they looked at brain scans

508
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 4: of taxi drivers in London.

509
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 2: The knowledge, yeah, the knowledge of this, the way it

510
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 2: sort of changed the pathways, right.

511
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, So they studied the brains of taxi drivers

512
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 4: in life then, and they talk about the knowledge, right, like,

513
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 4: you know, if you're brand new at driving a taxi

514
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 4: in London, you're clueless. You have no idea where anything

515
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 4: is if you've ever been there, there's like alleys everywhere

516
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 4: with all these it's impossible to navigate. But once you've

517
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 4: done it for a while you know, the whole day

518
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 4: of the land, you can take anyone anywhere. They studied

519
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 4: the brains of these people, and they found that people

520
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 4: who've been doing it for a long time, that part

521
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 4: of your brain that stores like locations and spatial memory

522
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 4: that's actually bigger, like it grows.

523
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 2: The mind is shriveled. Y'all. I'm so bad at directions.

524
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 2: I have no sense of geography.

525
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 3: It's really bad because yeah, because maybe it was, it's

526
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 3: been bad even since before, you know what. It's just

527
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 3: funny though, I will say this, I have recently been

528
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 3: trying to actively not use maps, and I have found

529
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 3: that it improves my sense of direction overall.

530
00:30:56,040 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 2: So I think it can be almost relearned or you know, improved. DuPont.

531
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 5: Yeah.

532
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 2: Yeah.

533
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 4: My wife just talked to a coworker who said he's

534
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 4: taking his son out for walks just to teach him

535
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 4: how to go on walks.

536
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, he's and it's not always inherent, you know, Yeah.

537
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 4: Because he's going out to college and you know, kids

538
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 4: do they basically maybe don't have that ability to walk around.

539
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. I haven't had to uh be lost in the woods,

540
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 1: right like our four bears. Uh Yeah, It's funny. It's

541
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 1: funny you say that because we we've talked in the

542
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 1: past about these arguments regarding you know, regarding the advent

543
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 1: of offloading uh, some sort of process right from the

544
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 1: human machine to an external machine. And I love that

545
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: you're bringing up the knowledge because that was a revolutionary

546
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 1: study in neuroscience. It reminds me as well of a

547
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 1: study I want to say it was in Why You

548
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight, admittedly small sample size, but

549
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 1: they studied people who meditate, Buddhist monks in particular, and

550
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 1: they found something similar similar to the similar to how

551
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 1: the use of the part of the brain that is

552
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:31,479
Speaker 1: occupied with spatial positioning appropreception. You could argue, similar to

553
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 1: how their continued practice of knowing where they are and

554
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 1: where they're going literally became mind over matter and increased

555
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 1: the I believe the argument is not just the increase

556
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 1: in size, but the increase in density of synaptic connections.

557
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: The study in eight with Buddhist monks found, and I'm

558
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 1: going to sound so pops, I hear, and I apologize,

559
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 1: it found that the part of the brain position toward

560
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 1: or associated with things like empathy and compassion was actually

561
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 1: denser and larger and exhibited more activity in those Buddhist

562
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: monks versus a sample size of you know, jerks like.

563
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 4: Us, non Buddhist monks, not.

564
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 1: Enlightened, not yes, not enlightened, perfect diplomacy. So this brings

565
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 1: us to I think I think the general umbrella term

566
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: for this concept is neuroplasticity. Is that what we're kind

567
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 1: of talking about? What is neuroplasticity.

568
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's kind of this idea that your brain is

569
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 4: not static, like at all, Like your brain is constantly

570
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 4: kind of rewiring itself, kind of constantly tuning itself. And

571
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 4: it's not like you're necessarily growing new neurons, but these

572
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 4: neurons are making new connections between themselves. And also kind

573
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 4: of more importantly is that these the connections that they have,

574
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 4: they're constantly kind of recalibrating themselves. And actually that's kind

575
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 4: of what's happening. That's how like ais learn. You know,

576
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 4: if you look at these neural net models, basically what

577
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 4: they're changing when they're learning stuff is the weighing of

578
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 4: the synaptic connections. So like how strong priority wise or

579
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 4: yeah kind of priority wise. Yeah, Like each neurons is

580
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 4: connected to like let's say a hundred other neurons, and

581
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 4: like it's getting all these inputs, so which ones do

582
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,359
Speaker 4: you ignore? Which ones do you listen to? And so

583
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 4: that happens at what are called synapses, which is kind

584
00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 4: of where like you know, the little branches of two

585
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:00,080
Speaker 4: neurons kind of mean.

586
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,839
Speaker 2: And firing, right, firing synapses.

587
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,879
Speaker 4: Firing, yeah, firing synapses where that gets transmitted from one

588
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 4: to the other. So that's that's where that's happening.

589
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, And when you look at a brain scan or

590
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 3: an MRI, if I'm not mistaken, you can literally see

591
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,839
Speaker 3: this activity right lighting up in different regions of the brain.

592
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 4: Kind of these these are like almost like molecule size.

593
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 4: They're like super super tiny, so you can't see them

594
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 4: like an MRI, but you can see kind of like

595
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 4: when you're looking at MRI, what you're looking at is

596
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 4: like the oxygen consumption of your neurons. So you can

597
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 4: tell like, oh, these neurons are being active because they're God, drinking.

598
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 2: Up a lot makes a lot of sense. So it's

599
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 2: an indicator, got it. Yeah, Yeah, that's fascinating.

600
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 1: So now we have learned that in given that the

601
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:52,240
Speaker 1: universe observable according to Big Bang theory is about fourteen

602
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 1: billion years old. Humans are real up and coming fad overall.

603
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 4: Right, we're the latest it beings. Yeah we are, We

604
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:08,799
Speaker 4: sure are, and for long. That's how fads work.

605
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 1: And and we we also learned in that very brief

606
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 1: span of time that we call humanity. Uh, people went

607
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:22,320
Speaker 1: from totally thinking the soul was in the most protected

608
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:26,280
Speaker 1: part of the body, the torso right to figuring out, oh,

609
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 1: that fatty thing in your head does something. Right after

610
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 1: we figured out just how to stop eating each other's brains. Uh,

611
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 1: just gonna throw that in there, and and and then

612
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 1: from there we see this, this vast series of at

613
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 1: times problematic innovations, sometimes based in accident, sometimes based in

614
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 1: confirmation bias or as you said, quack science of phrenology

615
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 1: or hate. Where does the exploration of consciousness and neuroscience

616
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 1: go in the future, By the way, just going to

617
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 1: put this out there for posterity. Jorge, Noel Max and

618
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 1: I are recording this on Monday, June twenty third, twenty

619
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 1: twenty five, So no pressure, Orge. Next thousand years, where

620
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 1: are we at.

621
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 4: No set, assuming we survived the next I don't know months,

622
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 4: Oh my god, existence here you know. I think these

623
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,399
Speaker 4: things are like Pandora's blogs. You know, once you open them,

624
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 4: you can't go back, you know. And so I think

625
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 4: we're going to be understanding the universe a lot more,

626
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:43,720
Speaker 4: We're going to be understanding things at the quantum level

627
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 4: a lot more. And who knows what's going to happen

628
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 4: with AIS. You know, it's quite I think possible that

629
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 4: within I don't know, twenty years, there'll be a conscious

630
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 4: AI who is smarter than us.

631
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 3: I think can That is the term that gets thrown

632
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,799
Speaker 3: around a lot, is singularity in terms of AI. But

633
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 3: then we also in talking about the Big Bang that's

634
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 3: referred to as a singularity event, and maybe the terms

635
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 3: are sort of used loosely, But can you kind of

636
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 3: talk about that term and how it applies to both

637
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 3: of those different things. Is it really just kind of

638
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 3: like an it moment where a big thing happens.

639
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:19,280
Speaker 2: Yeah.

640
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 4: So consciousness is one of the most debated things in

641
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,480
Speaker 4: like neuroscience psychology. Like if you ask any scientist like

642
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,400
Speaker 4: what is even consciousness? You'll get one hundred different answers.

643
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 4: Some people think it's like totally kind of biologically based,

644
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 4: like it's you know, a dog can have some kind

645
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,879
Speaker 4: of consciousness and can have a little bit of a consciousness,

646
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 4: you know, machine can have a consciousness the material materialist philosophy. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

647
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 4: And some people think there's something kind of special and

648
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 4: almost supernatural about it, you know, even scientists sometimes think

649
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 4: that when it happens, it's like this kind of indescribable

650
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:04,280
Speaker 4: thing that happens.

651
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:09,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, Promethean lighting in a bottle. Yeah, And this is

652
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: where we get to the vast precipice, some would say,

653
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:23,239
Speaker 1: or the vast horizon, depends upon your interpretations of as

654
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:30,320
Speaker 1: you said, Nol, singularity or transhumanism and future futurism. Nolan

655
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:34,320
Speaker 1: and I were talking off air or at length about

656
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 1: the concept of AI, artificial intelligence large language models. We

657
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,439
Speaker 1: touched on it naturally a little bit in part one,

658
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:49,319
Speaker 1: but perhaps we close out chapter two of our conversation

659
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 1: on the history of brain science by exploring the nature

660
00:39:55,320 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: of AI just a bit further. Now you have you have,

661
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:07,720
Speaker 1: through your work explore human human computer interaction in depth,

662
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 1: right and yeah, and so where do you see the

663
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:20,760
Speaker 1: future of human interaction with AI going? You already said,

664
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 1: you know, there is a horizon where this kind of

665
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 1: thing exists. What will that tell us about the human brain? Oh,

666
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 1: my goodness, small dog. Well, it kind of depends on

667
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:36,759
Speaker 1: where you land about how special the human brain is.

668
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 1: You know, like I personally am an engineer by training,

669
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 1: and to me, brains are really just like meat machines.

670
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 1: You know, It's like it's mechanical, there's chemicals, involves some

671
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 1: people think like quantum physics and quantum and certainly plays

672
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 1: a role in like those little tiny synapsis that we have,

673
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 1: in which case, you know, there is maybe some magic

674
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 1: to how the human rain works.

675
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:02,320
Speaker 2: I think we're all made of star stuff.

676
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 1: Well, if the Big Bang is true, then technically that

677
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:08,360
Speaker 1: that's also true, right.

678
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 3: Well yeah, we arose from something like that, right, and

679
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 3: we had to have.

680
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:14,759
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, well most of our the atoms and our

681
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 4: bodies were made inside of a star. Yeah, because the

682
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 4: universe at the beginning was just all hydrogen, and so

683
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 4: anything other than hydrogen was basically made by a star

684
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:26,320
Speaker 4: and usually starts dying.

685
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:31,600
Speaker 1: So yeah, this podcast brought to you by hydrogen. So

686
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 1: we're saying then that the nature of consciousness is still

687
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 1: something that the world's smartest people past, present, and possibly

688
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:50,319
Speaker 1: future have debate, have debated, right, the materialist view of

689
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 1: this one thing in this one case, these physical processes,

690
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 1: these mechanics, and these chemical interactions, and then there's the

691
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 1: larger question is there something bigger? Right? Is an individual

692
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:12,399
Speaker 1: consciousness only a node for a larger system which gets

693
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 1: little It's a lot of my old professors hate that idea.

694
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's this idea like humans are the way that

695
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:25,720
Speaker 4: the universe understands itself kind of. Is that what you're

696
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 4: talking about a little bit, Yeah.

697
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 1: Because you're talking about we're talking about now what we

698
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 1: would call Homo sapiens exceptionalism, right, yeah, right, the idea

699
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:45,320
Speaker 1: that although one can observe perhaps emotions in a pet,

700
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,319
Speaker 1: or what seems to be emotions in a pet, even

701
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 1: on the strength of various cognitive diagnostics, you could observe

702
00:42:55,760 --> 00:43:01,320
Speaker 1: maybe the way an octopus dreams, or the the functions

703
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 1: of certain higher order mammals.

704
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 3: To take what we're talking about metacognition here, right, like

705
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:10,720
Speaker 3: the fact that humans are uniquely built to think about thinking,

706
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:15,760
Speaker 3: to analyze themselves, sometimes into oblivion, which is why maybe

707
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 3: sometimes I'm jealous of the guy that can't remember anything

708
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 3: for more than thirty minutes, because it can be a

709
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 3: awaking nightmare at times what we do to ourselves in

710
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 3: terms of like thinking about thinking and all of the possibilities,

711
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 3: and it can be really exhausting, right.

712
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:34,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, And they're fascinating cases in the history of

713
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 4: brain science to the kind of speak to consciousness. So

714
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:41,920
Speaker 4: one fascinating case that is pretty recent are conjoined twins.

715
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 4: So there's a pair of famous twins called the Hogan twins,

716
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 4: and these are two girls who were born conjoined were

717
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 4: they basically share a brain, or they share parts of

718
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:56,239
Speaker 4: the brain, and specifically they share like this part called

719
00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 4: the thalamus, which is kind of like a kind of

720
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,280
Speaker 4: a hub inside of your brain kind of relays information

721
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 4: and so it's too definitely to people, like you can

722
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 4: talk to one of them, you can talk to the

723
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 4: other of them. But they sort of share their consciousness

724
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 4: almost in a way like like one of them can

725
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 4: sense what when the other person. Sometimes one of them

726
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 4: can sort of sense what the other person is thinking,

727
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 4: and they can sort of each control different parts of

728
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 4: the other person's body kind of like one of them

729
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 4: controls the left leg of the other one, the other

730
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 4: one controls the right arm of the other one. I

731
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 4: forget the exact details, but it's kind of like, like

732
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:41,720
Speaker 4: you said, kind of like we sometimes think being conscious

733
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:44,320
Speaker 4: the only way to be conscious is to be conscious

734
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:46,959
Speaker 4: like humans are right now, But there are other ways

735
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 4: that we can be conscious.

736
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:50,799
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, even other non conjoined twin studies yield

737
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 3: some pretty interesting results, like in terms of potentially some

738
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:58,359
Speaker 3: kind of link, you know, where there's at the very

739
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:01,879
Speaker 3: least a what's the word I'm looking for, a kind

740
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:04,879
Speaker 3: of intuition, you know, in terms of like that would

741
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 3: you know, surpass normal intuition maybe between regular siblings. I've

742
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,240
Speaker 3: met known in my life multiple sets of identical twins,

743
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 3: and there's something to it.

744
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:14,840
Speaker 2: It's very fascinating.

745
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:16,920
Speaker 3: I would say that is a different kind of consciousness

746
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:19,840
Speaker 3: in some ways where you are. Maybe it's a product

747
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 3: of sharing the same space so much and you know,

748
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:24,759
Speaker 3: spending so much time around each other. But I have

749
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,720
Speaker 3: seen something, some things that have a hard time explaining

750
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 3: in terms of the way twins can kind of know

751
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 3: what each other are thinking and feeling.

752
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, there's definitely a role for intuition there,

753
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:37,799
Speaker 4: and you know, it doesn't have to be physical consciousness,

754
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 4: Like you know, I kind of personally think that we

755
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 4: all kind of share as a human species some sort

756
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 4: of consciousness.

757
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,680
Speaker 1: You know, through the collect it's unconscious, Yeah, like the

758
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:50,839
Speaker 1: young and super consciousness, right right, Like that just.

759
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 2: Adds to that. You're right.

760
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 3: I'm sorry I didn't interrupt, but that's a really good point.

761
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 3: The Internet is, in and of itself, a super scaled

762
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 3: version of that just contributes to what we're talking about.

763
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, it just really all depends on how you define

764
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 4: this word consciousness.

765
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:06,319
Speaker 2: Mm.

766
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 4: Like if it means, like, you know, being able to

767
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:13,239
Speaker 4: write poetry and understand Shakespeare, that's one you might not

768
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:15,320
Speaker 4: get very far there. But you know, I've talked to

769
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:21,719
Speaker 4: scientists basically, just define it as our sense are as

770
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:27,320
Speaker 4: one of our senses that keeps track of our internal state.

771
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 4: So like you have a visual sense that tells you, oh,

772
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 4: I'm in the room, there's a door over there, that's

773
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 4: an apple over there. You have kind of an inner

774
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 4: looking sense that just tells you like, oh, I'm feeling

775
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:41,760
Speaker 4: this way, I'm thinking about this, I'm having this memory

776
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 4: of the apple eight this morning. It's just kind of

777
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:46,839
Speaker 4: like something that tells your body, Oh, this is what's

778
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:47,880
Speaker 4: going on inside your brain.

779
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:50,880
Speaker 3: Well, the key word there also is I you know,

780
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 3: and this idea of identity and this idea of consciousness

781
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 3: revolving around.

782
00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 2: Who we are and when who we are.

783
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 3: Being ultimately a collection of experience is that are in

784
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:03,920
Speaker 3: many ways influenced by the society we live in and

785
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:05,399
Speaker 3: you know, and if you want to take it further

786
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:07,880
Speaker 3: than them people trying to achieve enlightenment, the idea is

787
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,360
Speaker 3: sort of disconnect from all of those aspects and like

788
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 3: truly experience the spiritual part of what it is to

789
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:15,799
Speaker 3: have me have a soul or to like, you know,

790
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:18,759
Speaker 3: what it means to be part of the universe, rather

791
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:21,359
Speaker 3: than this identity, this construct that we sort of you know,

792
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 3: force upon ourselves or is forced upon us oftentimes.

793
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 2: It's fascinating. Obviously I'm super into this.

794
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:30,959
Speaker 4: Well did this gets We just did an episode about

795
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 4: this on Signed Stuff, the podcast on and about near

796
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:36,800
Speaker 4: death experiences.

797
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 2: Oh, we just.

798
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:41,919
Speaker 3: Talked to an incredible podcast creator and friend of the show,

799
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 3: Dan Bush on stuff that I want you to know

800
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 3: about his incredible podcasts Alive Again. That is all about

801
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:50,279
Speaker 3: interviews with folks who've experienced your experiences.

802
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:53,279
Speaker 1: I'm going to connect you with those folks. You guys

803
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:56,279
Speaker 1: should hang out can you tell us just a bit

804
00:47:56,320 --> 00:48:00,360
Speaker 1: of a tease as we wrap up what you found

805
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:05,319
Speaker 1: in your explorations on ND or near death experiences in

806
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 1: science stuff.

807
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:08,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, it kind of goes back to this idea

808
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 4: of what consciousness is and because you know, a big

809
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:14,759
Speaker 4: part of near death experiences is this out of body experience.

810
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:17,840
Speaker 4: People feel like they're outside their body, and what we

811
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 4: found was that it can it can all be explained

812
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:27,719
Speaker 4: by science by how your brain works, and but whether

813
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 4: that's actually what's going on, like you know, scientists can't

814
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 4: answer that because you know, we can't test someone while

815
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 4: they're having it experience. But basically all of these phenomena

816
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 4: near thats you know, feeling outside of your body, having

817
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 4: weird visions, talking to people who are already dead, there

818
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:49,319
Speaker 4: are brain processes that you can say, Okay, I think

819
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:51,840
Speaker 4: that's what's going on there, and that we can replicate

820
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 4: that in the lab. If I give you, you know,

821
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 4: a hallucinogen, well in a control environment, you're also going

822
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,040
Speaker 4: to have these experiences. If I take i'm achine that

823
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:03,319
Speaker 4: disrupts this part of your brain, I can make you

824
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:05,520
Speaker 4: feel like you're stepping outside your body.

825
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 1: Or experiencing divinity like the famous god helmet experiments, and

826
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 1: and also very well done doctor cham to note that

827
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 1: we cannot ethically pursue some direct experiments that would lead

828
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:29,120
Speaker 1: to breakthroughs there because it would require doing kind of

829
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:32,719
Speaker 1: evil things to innocent people, even if they signed up.

830
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 1: You know, we've all seen flatliners. Yeah, classic Julia Roberts movie. Yeah,

831
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:43,799
Speaker 1: oh yeah, that was joy, that was yeah, young Sutherland,

832
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah yeah. And uh, you know, I've got to

833
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 1: be honest. Uh, it's a super up to date pop

834
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:55,759
Speaker 1: culture reference, I'm sure, but I remember seeing flatliners and

835
00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:03,799
Speaker 1: being convinced that this is why people join med school and.

836
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:05,719
Speaker 2: So they can do the flat so they can do flatliners.

837
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. Luckily, Luckily, my uncle, a very nice, very learned man,

838
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:16,600
Speaker 1: assured a young Ben Bullen that it would still be

839
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 1: illegal to quote unquote flat line people to quote unquote

840
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:22,920
Speaker 1: see what happens.

841
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:26,719
Speaker 2: Well, And speaking of other cinematic masterpieces, we were talking

842
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:28,880
Speaker 2: a little earlier about the idea of Vibes, and I

843
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:31,479
Speaker 2: have to take this opportunity to recommend the movie Vibes.

844
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 2: Oh my god, it's one of your favorites, Ben. I

845
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 2: actually recommended it to a friend the other day.

846
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:41,720
Speaker 3: Seminole Ghostbusters slash Indiana Jones mashup slash Ripoff that everyone

847
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 3: should see, starring Jeff Goldbloom and Cindy Love Hare, No

848
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:52,600
Speaker 3: True No Vibes. Well, get you to a cinema or hey,

849
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:55,759
Speaker 3: hopefully they're doing a revival screening of Vibes somewhere in

850
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 3: your neck of the woods.

851
00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 4: I think I missed that seminal moment in neuroscience.

852
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:03,280
Speaker 2: It's okay, Yeah, it explains a lot. It's a real breakthrough.

853
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:08,439
Speaker 1: It's sort of like the Police Academy four of its time.

854
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:12,960
Speaker 2: It's probably contemporary with Police Academy. It probably is. Actually

855
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:15,439
Speaker 2: I've come out the same year with that.

856
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Orgee for spending time with us

857
00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:23,600
Speaker 1: and making this Orgey and Science Stuff Week. Where can

858
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 1: people learn more about your explorations.

859
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:31,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, so right now my big project is sign Stuff.

860
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 4: It's a new iHeart podcast. You can find it anywhere

861
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 4: you get your podcasts. Search for sign Stuff one word

862
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 4: and look for the purple icon. That's us. And we

863
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:46,279
Speaker 4: asked her awesome questions like do animals understand death? Or

864
00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 4: do they like to get drunk? Or what's inside of

865
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:54,239
Speaker 4: a black hole? Or oh, grow limb Yeah, that's the

866
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 4: one that was super fascinating recently. Why can't we regrow limbs?

867
00:51:57,600 --> 00:51:59,839
Speaker 4: There are animals who, like you, cut up their arm,

868
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 4: don't just grow a brand new one. Why can't we

869
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:05,440
Speaker 4: do it? And we find out the answer is maybe

870
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:05,799
Speaker 4: we can.

871
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:11,440
Speaker 1: And while you are on the internet, please do check

872
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:18,040
Speaker 1: out one of our favorite aspects of Doctor Chimp or Hey.

873
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:23,800
Speaker 1: In addition to being one of, if not the smartest

874
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 1: people on the history of this show, definitely in this episode.

875
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:34,719
Speaker 1: You are not just a mechanical engineer Stanford graduated. You

876
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:39,240
Speaker 1: did not just attend Georgia Tech, one of the most

877
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 1: difficult schools of its caliber. You are also the creator

878
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:47,520
Speaker 1: of a comic strip called PhD Comics. Could you tell

879
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 1: us a little bit about that?

880
00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:52,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, PhD Comics. You can find out a PhD Comics

881
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:54,799
Speaker 4: dot com. It's a comic strip I started when I

882
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:58,239
Speaker 4: was in grad school, and it's all about what it's

883
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:01,200
Speaker 4: like to do science, what it's like to be an academic.

884
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 4: It's kind of people describe it as the Dilbert of academia.

885
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:07,600
Speaker 2: I don't know this, guys. I'll have to check it

886
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:10,280
Speaker 2: out next trip in my life.

887
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:12,520
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, and so I was super lucky to be

888
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:14,960
Speaker 4: able to do that for many many years on the internet,

889
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 4: huge amount of support for people out there, and then

890
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:21,239
Speaker 4: that translated to me doing movies and then a TV show.

891
00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:24,480
Speaker 4: Recently you can find that one on PPS Kids. It's

892
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 4: called Eleanor Wonders Why. And I've also gone in to

893
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:31,920
Speaker 4: write and draw a lot of books. So my probably

894
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:34,600
Speaker 4: my most famous one I've worked on is called We

895
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:37,400
Speaker 4: Have No Idea, which is a guide to everything we

896
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:40,960
Speaker 4: don't know about the universe. And now the most popular

897
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:44,319
Speaker 4: one is something called Oliver's Great Big Universe, which is

898
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:47,160
Speaker 4: for kids. If you have a kid who's really curious

899
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:50,839
Speaker 4: and like science but also likes, you know, far jokes

900
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:55,719
Speaker 4: and really fun, fun middle school middle grade stories, please

901
00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:56,319
Speaker 4: check it out.

902
00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:01,840
Speaker 3: A polymath and renaissance man, indeed, doctor Horte Sham, thanks

903
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:03,720
Speaker 3: again for joining us on Ridiculous History.

904
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:08,680
Speaker 5: For Hoorte Sham week, oh thank you, and well well

905
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:17,279
Speaker 5: well bully for us, congratulations and tally ho Wecei Thury, Yes,

906
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 5: Noel we once again, my friend, uh.

907
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 1: We managed to speak with a world class expert uh

908
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:31,480
Speaker 1: in science, and I think we post some interesting questions.

909
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:33,600
Speaker 3: I think so, I think we held our own with

910
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:36,720
Speaker 3: doctor cham Jorge to his friends. I'd like to think

911
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:39,879
Speaker 3: that we walked away from these recordings as friends. He said,

912
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:41,360
Speaker 3: like said, he wanted to come back on again, and

913
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:42,800
Speaker 3: that we made him laugh and smile.

914
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:45,280
Speaker 2: That made us feel really good. That's true.

915
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 5: Our neurons were firing, were they which whichever part is associated.

916
00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:53,879
Speaker 1: With learning and with us?

917
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:54,440
Speaker 2: And joy?

918
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:58,000
Speaker 1: And joy? That's the word we were looking for. Uh

919
00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:01,280
Speaker 1: we I don't know. No, this guy is so close

920
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:05,360
Speaker 1: to getting a cool ridiculous history, street name, a nickname,

921
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:06,600
Speaker 1: an operator name.

922
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:10,319
Speaker 2: You know it's doctor horget riverside Champ. Oh, that's true,

923
00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:11,239
Speaker 2: he made his own.

924
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:12,120
Speaker 5: There we go.

925
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 3: Now we can do better, we'll workshop that one, but

926
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:18,200
Speaker 3: for now. Huge days to you, Ben. That was a

927
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:21,719
Speaker 3: fun exploration of all things heady and universal.

928
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:25,480
Speaker 1: Huge thanks to you know, huge thanks to our super producer,

929
00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:31,200
Speaker 1: mister Max Frictionless. Williams got a nice haircut there. Also,

930
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:37,320
Speaker 1: big big thanks to aj Bahama's Jacob's Jonathan Strickland aka

931
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:42,359
Speaker 1: the Twister. Okay, yep, big thanks to him.

932
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, of course. Sure, the rude dudes over a

933
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:46,360
Speaker 2: ridiculous crime.

934
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 3: We've got Chris Praciota's and Eve Jeff Coates here and

935
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:51,279
Speaker 3: Spirit you know what, I think.

936
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:57,680
Speaker 4: We'll see you next time, folks.

937
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:03,520
Speaker 3: For more podcast from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

938
00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:05,720
Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.