1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 2 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:11,559 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're out 3 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: on fall break this week. So we're bringing you an 4 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: episode from the vault. This is the sequel to the 5 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: episode that aired on Tuesday. This is The Holy Undead 6 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: Part two, originally published October one. Let's jump right in. 7 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of My 8 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:41,200 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 9 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 10 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: we're back at you with the second part of our 11 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: series about the Holy Undead. So in the last episode 12 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: we talked about various tales of what you what you 13 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: might call the pious or the holy undead. These would 14 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: be ghosts, revenants, zombies that don't seem to be purely 15 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:06,119 Speaker 1: demonic entities of the night, but instead they take part 16 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: in activities that are considered by the people telling the 17 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:13,320 Speaker 1: tales to be wholesome and and and good. In particular, 18 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: these these are undead that love going to church, and 19 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 1: yet at the same time, they're not usually entirely benign. 20 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:25,759 Speaker 1: They retain this aura of menace. Sometimes they offer ill 21 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: omens to people or sometimes they even uh they go 22 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: hands on and get a little violent. So Rob, in 23 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 1: the last episode, you told a wonderful story that was 24 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:38,959 Speaker 1: based on an old Swedish folk tale called the Hooded Congregation. 25 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: And this is a tale in which a woman is 26 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: awoken in the dark of night on Christmas I think, 27 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: or is it Christmas Eve? I believe it's Christmas Eve 28 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: slash early Christmas morning. Yeah. Yeah, and so so their 29 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 1: church bells and she hears them out in the dark. 30 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:57,559 Speaker 1: And then so of course the church bells are ringing. 31 00:01:57,600 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: That means you need to go to church. So she 32 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: goes to church, but she finds it full of hooded 33 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: figures who were eventually revealed to be the undead, including 34 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 1: her own dearly departed sister. And when when she discovers this, 35 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:13,359 Speaker 1: the attack and she narrowly escapes. Yeah. It's a it's 36 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 1: a fun story and it uh it really it relates 37 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 1: to this um, this trend that we see in um 38 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: in in Nordic traditions of these revenants, these these physical 39 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: undead um, these these corporeal undead that you can they 40 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:31,799 Speaker 1: can touch you, they can grab you, that you can 41 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: wrestle and do battle with the if need be. And 42 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:39,640 Speaker 1: uh yeah, in many cases they are, they're they're quite malevolent, 43 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 1: but in other cases they are, they're almost benign, just 44 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 1: attending church, going about their their business doing church stuff, 45 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 1: um as the not quite rested dead or want to 46 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 1: do right. And so we also ended up talking about 47 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: a bunch of medieval ghost stories of of the pious 48 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: undead that are translated and analized in a wonderful historical 49 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: paper that we're going to continue talking about in this 50 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 1: episode and again. So the reference on this paper is 51 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 1: that it's called Revenants, Resurrection and Burnt Sacrifice by a 52 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:15,959 Speaker 1: historian named Nancy Mandeville Cacciola, who is a medieval historian 53 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: at University of California, San Diego. And this was published 54 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,920 Speaker 1: in fourteen in a journal called Predator Nature Critical and 55 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:26,679 Speaker 1: Historical Studies on the Predator Natural. And this paper focuses 56 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 1: on stories told by a tenth to eleventh century German 57 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 1: bishop named tete marvon Merseburg. And so around the year 58 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 1: ten thirteen to ten eighteen or so, uh teit Mar 59 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: was writing an eight volume historical text called the Chronic 60 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: con which was supposed to be about the glories of 61 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 1: the Ottonian dynasty, and this was a series of Saxon 62 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: Christian kings that he served under who were involved in 63 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: conquering and christianizing lands that previously belonged to various Slavic 64 00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: pagan people's uh so, so this was a sort of 65 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 1: coll Anneal frontier zone. And within recent memory, the former 66 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: inhabitants of one town within this zone had been massacred 67 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: during a revolt of the locals. And so in the 68 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: middle of this history, Tetmar goes into a digression about 69 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 1: a story of the undead from this fortified town where 70 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 1: there had been a massacre. This town is called vols Laban, 71 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: and the story goes that there is a priest who 72 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:28,479 Speaker 1: arrives at church to sing Matten's matins as spelled m 73 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 1: A t I n s. That means like an early 74 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: morning prayer. The medieval Catholics had a lot of interesting 75 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 1: names for like the different prayers you would say at 76 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: the different times of day. I don't remember them all, 77 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 1: but there's like mattins, there's lauds. I remember. These are 78 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 1: used as sort of like a time delineation. Chapter headings 79 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 1: in In the Name of the Rose, if I recall correctly. Um. 80 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: But so he's there for Mattins so the morning prayer 81 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: and uh. And when he shows up at the church, 82 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: he goes to the cemetery and he sees a multitude 83 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: of dead people there. These are revenants, and they are 84 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 1: worse apping they're making offerings to a revenant priest, and 85 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: so the living priest who has just arrived, he makes 86 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: the sign of the Cross, and then he walks through 87 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: the crowd of the undead until he sees a woman 88 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 1: he knows one who had died just recently, and she 89 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: asks him, Hey, what are you doing here. He says, 90 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 1: I'm here to sing Matin's and she's like, well, you 91 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: don't need to do that, because we already did it. 92 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:25,160 Speaker 1: And then she's like, by the way, you're going to 93 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 1: die soon, and then he did. That's what tite Mar 94 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 1: tells us. But then he also explains that the point 95 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 1: of him relaying the story is to prove the truth 96 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: of the Catholic doctrine of the resurrection of the dead 97 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: in Christ, which he says that the formerly pagan Slavs 98 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: do not understand very well. He thinks they need correcting 99 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 1: on this subject. Though I also wonder sort of if 100 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: this persuasive framing, like I'm trying to prove the truth 101 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: of the resurrection, if this persuasive, apologetic framing is really 102 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:00,839 Speaker 1: the reason he tells these stories, because aparently after telling 103 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: this first one, he digresses from his from his history 104 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: to just tell a bunch of other ghost stories, including 105 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: an awesomely grizzly tale that we're going to get to 106 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: in just a bit. Yeah, you're right. It does make 107 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 1: you wonder is this about about using the ghost stories 108 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:19,559 Speaker 1: to uh, to support Christianity, or is it about finding 109 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 1: an excuse to keep these ghost stories around just because 110 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,479 Speaker 1: they're really cool. Yeah, maybe he just wanted to tell 111 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: them because he thought they were really fun, And then 112 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: he's like, oh, I need a good reason to say 113 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 1: I'm doing this. Well, actually they prove that that Christianity 114 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:34,480 Speaker 1: is true. Yeah, and I should. I don't want to 115 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:36,840 Speaker 1: say just fun, because I mean, certainly ghost stories can 116 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:40,280 Speaker 1: be fun, but also ghost stories can be culturally important, 117 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: and they are you know that they are part of 118 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 1: one's cultural background, So there's there's an added incentive to 119 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: to keep them around if it all possible, because they 120 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: are they are a part of your history. Yeah, and 121 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: I think this is very much part of something that 122 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 1: that Cachiola is going to argue in this paper. But 123 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 1: picking back up with that paper of hers, I want 124 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 1: to go into some of the historical, cultural, in religious 125 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 1: context that she explains to help us better understand what 126 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 1: these stories might have meant in their in their time 127 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: and place. So one thing she says is that during 128 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: this period, religion and politics were deeply linked. German rule 129 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: was self consciously formulated as Christian rule, and the Ottonian 130 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: dynasty mythologize themselves consciously as the so called Last World Emperors. 131 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:29,119 Speaker 1: So they were thinking of themselves as as great kings 132 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: who would by conquest, expand Christianity to the ends of 133 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: the earth and thus bring about the second Coming of Christ. Oh. Wow, 134 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: the Last World Emperors. I love that it sounds sounds 135 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: positively evil. Yeah, And it's the funny thing. So this 136 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 1: is something that people might not realize like they think. Oh, 137 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: people in the twentieth century are always saying that the 138 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: world the end is coming soon. You know that this 139 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: religious apocalypticism. It says, I've I've received a revelation from 140 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 1: God and I know finally the end is happening now. 141 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 1: People in the tenth and eleventh century thought this way 142 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: to people all the time throughout every century of of 143 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: Christian history of thought that they were living in the 144 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: end times. This is just a perennial phenomenon. But because 145 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 1: of the linking of religion and politics here, the military 146 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: expansion of the Ottonians was also an expansion of the 147 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: Catholic Church. So when they would go and establish fortified 148 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: military outposts along the frontier, they were also establishing new bishoprics, 149 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: they were establishing new footholds for the Church. And so 150 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: in the paper, Caciola makes the argument that though the 151 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: Slavic rebellions against the German conquest and German power were 152 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 1: were obviously they would have had many complex reasons for 153 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 1: doing this. She does make the case that it really 154 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:47,559 Speaker 1: looks like one of those reasons was religious resistance, resistance 155 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: to the Christianizing impulse of the Germans and protecting their 156 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: traditional ancestral beliefs. Uh So, she writes, as one example 157 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: of this quote, centers of German power, which were of 158 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 1: course also Christian religion centers, were targets for attack among 159 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: these Slavic revolts. Uh continuing this included the Cathedral of 160 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 1: have Alburg and the and the Bishopric of Brandenburg, where 161 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 1: the remains of the last bishop parentheses tit martells Us 162 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: he had been assassinated by his own flock, were dragged 163 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: from his tomb and despoiled. The nunneries of Kalba and 164 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: hillers Laban were also not spared, showing that institutions with 165 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: predominantly religious rather than political associations were targeted as well. 166 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:34,959 Speaker 1: So this is some evidence that the Slavic rebellions against 167 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: the Ottonians they were not just trying to protect their 168 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 1: political autonomy, but they were also resisting the the the 169 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 1: conversion impulse. They were saying, no, we like our religious beliefs, 170 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 1: we'd like to keep them. Please. Now. Another thing that's 171 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 1: worth clarifying is that talking about pagan Slavs of the 172 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 1: region is a shorthand, because of course this is not 173 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: one monolithic culture with one monolithic religion, but rather a 174 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:01,679 Speaker 1: collection of different tribes with their own distinct cultures and beliefs. 175 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: Uh Though, it does seem that a general motivating factor 176 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: for the tribal rebellions against the Saxon Ottonians was defense 177 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: of these pagan religious beliefs against the Christianization mission, and 178 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:17,959 Speaker 1: of course paganism itself is not a religion, not one 179 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: unified religion at this time. In this context, it simply 180 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 1: means any of the non Abrahamic religions, so this would 181 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 1: not usually be any kind of polytheism. And unfortunately there's 182 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 1: a lot we don't know about these pagan religious beliefs. 183 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 1: There was clearly plenty of diversity between them, though like 184 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: many religions, they broadly seem to have included some elements 185 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 1: of ancestor worship, as well as some common shared views 186 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: about what constituted a good versus a bad death, and 187 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 1: some similar beliefs about the afterlife. Now, another interesting thing 188 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: about the political and religious history that here is that 189 00:10:56,559 --> 00:11:01,199 Speaker 1: it's worth understanding that in this place and time, conversion 190 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:07,679 Speaker 1: religious conversion would almost necessarily be a somewhat flimsy concept. 191 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 1: People in lands conquered by by Christians in the Middle 192 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: Ages would often get baptized as Christians and then simply 193 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:20,719 Speaker 1: continue to practice their original pagan beliefs, either exclusively or 194 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 1: alongside Christian worship. And one way I think to help 195 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 1: understand this is that not all religions have exactly the 196 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: same contours sort of that they don't all make stake 197 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 1: the same ground, right, Like the role of Christianity versus 198 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: the local paganisms was not a one to one comparison 199 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 1: in a number of ways. For example, the Catholic Church 200 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 1: had organized dogmas and a concept of religious universality and exclusivity. 201 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:52,320 Speaker 1: So this is a religion that conceptualizes itself as the 202 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: one religion that is true and it should be the 203 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 1: religion of the entire world. Uh. Sometimes people who grow 204 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: up in Christian society's assume that all religions are like this, 205 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:06,440 Speaker 1: with this belief in universality and exclusivity. But that's not 206 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: at all true. Like most religions in history appear to 207 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: have been much looser, more defined by ritual rather than belief, 208 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:19,560 Speaker 1: and without necessary ideas of universality or exclusivity. You know, 209 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 1: we were talking about this just yesterday in the context 210 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: of the Indiana Jones movies, the Indiana Jones franchise. Excepts 211 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:31,359 Speaker 1: all religions and even and even like like fringe beliefs 212 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: and ancient aliens and what have you. Oh, yeah, that's funny. 213 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:36,839 Speaker 1: That's one thing I kind of appreciate about it. It's 214 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: got a sort of totalizing mythology and maybe one that 215 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:43,679 Speaker 1: seems sort of geographically linked to so that it's like 216 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: where maybe when you go into a geographical area that 217 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: has predominantly one religion, that that religion mainly applies within 218 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 1: that geography. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so in this region Hebrew 219 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 1: got is real and this region Shiva is real? Um 220 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: or was it Shiva Cali? It's and so long since 221 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 1: I've seen um the Second Indiana, I think both the 222 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 1: second one that the movie has got a lot of problems. 223 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 1: But yeah, Collie is sort of the bad guy and 224 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:12,320 Speaker 1: it Eshivahs the good god. And okay, it's more complicated 225 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: than that. The folks, if so, don't don't use the 226 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 1: Second Indiana Jones movie is your your guide into the 227 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 1: world of Hinduism. Um but u. But still, I think 228 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 1: it's an interesting point about the idea yet that in 229 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: the Indiana Jones world, like all these faiths are real 230 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: and they don't seem to exclude one another unless you say, 231 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 1: well that the Egyptian gods, the Egyptian pantheon is kind 232 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 1: of excluded from the uh. All the happenings that go 233 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 1: on in um Indiana Jones and the you know, the 234 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: raiders of the Lost art. Well, do we know that? 235 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: For sure? We never see a contest of the gods. 236 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 1: They're like the Pharaoh's magicians. Never true, we don't get 237 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 1: to see what they can do, that's right. And maybe 238 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 1: they're just watching on you know, they're they're they're sleeping, 239 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 1: who knows. I know, for one, I'm pretty certain that 240 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 1: there's there's bound to be some sort of Indiana Jones 241 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 1: related media from comics or TV series or something that 242 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 1: actually involves Egyptian gods. So if it's out there, someone 243 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:09,680 Speaker 1: tell me about it. Well, I think one consequence of 244 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 1: the different types of groundstaking games that are that are 245 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: being played by the different religions at this time means that, 246 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: for example, so the Christians might insist that you believe 247 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: in no gods except the Christian Trinity, but many of 248 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: the European polytheists at this time could simply incorporate new gods. 249 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: So it's possible that they might well view a conversion 250 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: to Christianity rather as a kind of incorporation exercise. So 251 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: like we have our gods, we have our rituals, and 252 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 1: now here's this other thing sort of added on top 253 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 1: of that. And here's also Jesus and the Catholic Church. 254 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: So it's kind of like this. It's almost like a 255 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: chemical situation where the pre existing religion uh is more 256 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: inclined to bond with with additives, even though those additives 257 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 1: are you know, tend to be a tend to have uh, 258 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 1: you know, exclusive ideas in them. Uh. You know, it 259 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: doesn't it doesn't matter. When push comes to shove, the 260 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: polytheistic religion is going going to absorb the monotheistic uh, 261 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: even if to some outsiders it it appears uh in 262 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 1: some cases that you've set aside the old ways, right. Yeah, 263 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: so so, Cacchiolo writes that given these religious starting points, 264 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 1: what you would probably expect to see at this place 265 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: in time is not a just sort of exchange of 266 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 1: the old gods for the new, but rather a sort 267 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: of what she calls an untidy syncretic admixture, you know, 268 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 1: syncretism against the mixing of religious beliefs, a sort of 269 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: mixing and blending and hybridization process that would arrive at 270 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: these new combinatorial beliefs. Um. And she gives us one 271 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 1: interesting example of this. Uh. She talks about a text 272 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: known as the Merseburg Charms uh quote short rhythmic invocations 273 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: of the valkyries full Wodan and Freya, composed an archaic 274 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: German but carefully transcribed onto a leaf of an otherwise 275 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: entirely Christian manuscript found in the library of the Cathedral 276 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: of Merseburg. And then she has a great comment it 277 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 1: is pleasing to think that Titmar himself might have encountered it. 278 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: And and then of course we're going to drive home 279 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: something we've mentioned before in the show is that, of 280 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 1: course humans are capable of having multiple and conflicting um 281 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: beliefs and ideas, particularly as it pertains to the you know, 282 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: the origins of the world and the inner workings of 283 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: the supernatural realm. So um. You know, we see that 284 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 1: even today, and many people who think that they are, 285 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 1: you know, a pure subscriber to one particular brand of faith, 286 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: if if they're to self analyze, they might find that 287 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: they actually have some ideas from other other faiths and 288 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 1: sort of non faith origin sort of mixed up in 289 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 1: their supernatural understanding of the world or the same One 290 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: person actually quite easily switches gears but tween different belief 291 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: systems depending on the context. Yeah, I mean to come 292 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: back to this example. Perhaps perhaps you are you know, 293 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:08,879 Speaker 1: a Christian when you were at the Christian church or 294 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 1: walking among the Christian gravestones, but then when you're in 295 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 1: the woods or when you were you know, walking the shore. Uh, 296 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:18,879 Speaker 1: then perhaps it's the the older gods that called to you, 297 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: and so this other way of looking at the world, 298 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 1: or you could look at it as a night and 299 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:31,639 Speaker 1: day thing that might yeah, yeah, thank thank you, thank you. 300 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: So I think we should get back to teit Mar's 301 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 1: ghost stories. Uh. And so the first place I guess 302 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: would be to comment a little more on that first story, 303 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:42,640 Speaker 1: the one about the priest who arrives to sing Matten's 304 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 1: and and finds the congregation the multitude of dead there 305 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: and they're making offerings to a dead priest and then 306 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: they and then one of them is someone he knows 307 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: tells him, I think you're gonna die soon, and then 308 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: he does. So I wanted to go through a few 309 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: observations about the story that they catch you ala notes 310 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: that are probably worth logging for when we look at 311 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 1: the other ones. Uh. First, it's worth noting that instead 312 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 1: of going to another plane of existence in this story, 313 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:13,440 Speaker 1: the returned dead or the revenants they hang out here 314 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 1: on earth, so they're not going off to heaven. This 315 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:18,879 Speaker 1: is where they live. They're here on earth and this 316 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: is where they do their business. Second, they are bodily reanimations, 317 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 1: not in substantial specters. This has come up several times already, 318 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 1: but this is apparently common, especially throughout the pagan mythology 319 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:34,719 Speaker 1: of Northern Europe, that uh, you know, it's not just 320 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: like a gas like ghost that forms an image that 321 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 1: you could walk right through. These are undead with mass 322 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:43,919 Speaker 1: and heft they can grab you. Yeah, they are the 323 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 1: literal dead. They are you know, decaying bodies and skeletons 324 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: going about their business. Another thing, so these dead are 325 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: said to be in the version of the story, we 326 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:58,919 Speaker 1: get faithful Christians who worship the Christian God even after death, 327 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 1: which is an interesting thing because I think another common 328 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 1: modern assumption that would be that like a religion is 329 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 1: something that people maybe need during life. You know, it's 330 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:13,120 Speaker 1: it's in order specifically to prepare you for the afterlife, 331 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: So there would be no need in the afterlife for 332 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: people to continue doing religious practices. But here that that 333 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 1: assumption is clearly not on display. The dead also need 334 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,919 Speaker 1: to go to church and of course, in thinking about this, 335 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 1: our mind can easily go to Christian doctrines of of 336 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:33,919 Speaker 1: the of the dead returning to life be at the 337 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 1: resurrection of Christ um after death or um the idea 338 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,239 Speaker 1: that once we die, our bodies just kind of hang 339 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 1: around for a while until the physical resurrection occurs at 340 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 1: the end of time UM. Which you can imagine how 341 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: how that idea would um would come to life if 342 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,679 Speaker 1: you had these pre existing concepts of revenant spirits, like 343 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 1: it's my body just in the ground awaiting um Christ's return. Well, 344 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 1: what else is it doing? Is it going to church? 345 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: There's it just lazy bones. This is something we mentioned, 346 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: uh we mentioned last time. So the Catholic teaching at 347 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 1: the time emphasized the inertness of the dead body until 348 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: the general resurrection at the second coming of Christ. So 349 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 1: they they would emphasize, no, until Jesus comes back, your 350 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: body just stays there. It doesn't do anything. And so 351 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: this is clearly in contradiction with that. And yet this 352 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 1: is also something we talked about in the previous episode. 353 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: There appears to have been a pretty wide uh tolerance 354 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:37,719 Speaker 1: for various beliefs about the undead, even if they weren't 355 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: if there were beliefs about the undead that we're not 356 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: strictly in line with Catholic teaching. For some reason, this 357 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 1: is an area of belief that the Church did not 358 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,359 Speaker 1: seem to police very strongly. And we're broadly tolerant of 359 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: people sort of coloring outside the lines on beliefs about 360 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 1: the dead. But to come back to Titmar's first ghost 361 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:00,239 Speaker 1: story here, there there are some weird elements that are 362 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:04,159 Speaker 1: illuminating on top of the more straightforward elements we just mentioned. 363 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,120 Speaker 1: First of all, so again we we noticed that these 364 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 1: dead are pious from a Christian point of view. They're 365 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 1: going to church, they're worshiping God, and yet at the 366 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:17,160 Speaker 1: same time they project what Catchiola calls a strong aura 367 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,479 Speaker 1: of menace that seems to be about right. These are 368 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 1: not like happy, nice ghosts who are like hey, sweet, 369 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 1: you know, they're scary and the priest is terrified of them. 370 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: He has to do the sign of the Cross before 371 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 1: he can go in, go in among the crowd. And 372 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: then here's another interesting thing. I didn't notice this, but 373 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:38,439 Speaker 1: she points this out in the analysis. Not only is 374 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: the priest given a true omen of his own impending death, 375 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: that part's creepy enough, but more so his office has 376 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: been usurped. They are performing the morning Mass that he 377 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,680 Speaker 1: came there to do. They are doing the priest's job 378 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:57,920 Speaker 1: for him. So there's an interesting implied interplay of ideas 379 00:21:58,000 --> 00:21:59,919 Speaker 1: here when when you look at what could have been 380 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 1: the inputs. Number one, you'd have Okay, they're appearing in 381 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:07,160 Speaker 1: this Catholic church. And again, the Catholic doctrine emphasized the 382 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: inertness of the dead body, So this is not really 383 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 1: totally within the you know, the central teachings of the church. 384 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: And yet obviously here's here's titmur a Catholic bishop recording 385 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 1: this event um and yet it includes these elements that 386 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:24,120 Speaker 1: would seem to come from European paganism that had these 387 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: sort of common sense ideas about what would lead somebody 388 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,159 Speaker 1: to get up out of their grave and walk around. 389 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: And generally this would be associated with what would be 390 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 1: considered a bad death, people who say died of like 391 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: a painful or violent death, or died young, or died 392 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,679 Speaker 1: with unfinished business. That these are generally the kinds of 393 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 1: people who were believed to have energy still left in 394 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: them because they had something unresolved or they died too young, 395 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 1: and they would be the ones who would be likely 396 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 1: to get up out of their graves. Right. Another area 397 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: being the revenants of individuals who had not been buried properly. Uh. 398 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 1: And during the Christian period this becomes had a case 399 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: of had not been given a proper Christian burial. Right. 400 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: So you're you're combining these weird connotations of you know, 401 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: beliefs that would traditionally say these are the kind of 402 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:17,880 Speaker 1: dead you should be worried about, the ones that get 403 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 1: up and walk around that you know there's something wrong 404 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: with them. These are the bad dead, the dangerous dead. 405 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 1: And yet here in this story while they're going to 406 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 1: church and that's nice. Um and so teep margin he 407 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 1: gives this, uh, this persuasive framing where he says, this 408 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: story proves the Christian doctrine of the ultimate resurrection of 409 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,439 Speaker 1: the dead at the end of time. Though I to 410 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 1: come back to when I brought up earlier, I wonder 411 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 1: if he's got other things in mind. I was actually 412 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 1: kind of wondering about stories like this, if this is 413 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 1: kind of the same logic. There's a lot of say 414 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 1: twentieth century exploitation movies where they say, here's a movie 415 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 1: with like lurid content that is playing to you know, 416 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: people's perverse interests and seeing you know, violence or sexuality 417 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:06,159 Speaker 1: or something, but couched as somehow educational or topical about 418 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: important subject matter. You know what I mean. Yeah, like 419 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: like an like an early anti drug film that is 420 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:17,680 Speaker 1: ultimately kind of a celebration at access around supposed drug doings. Yeah, 421 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 1: like refor madness or something. They're like, We're gonna get 422 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,120 Speaker 1: your heart racing with some with some kind of kind 423 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: of scandalous content. But really this is all framed in 424 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 1: showing you how how dangerous and bad marijuana is. But 425 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:32,879 Speaker 1: then again, I think about how I guess, to be 426 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 1: fair to teach more this story could be presented with 427 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,679 Speaker 1: both purposes at once. One in one one hand, is 428 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,679 Speaker 1: just kind of a very fascinating, entertaining ghost story, and 429 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 1: then on the other hand, it does, at least from 430 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,479 Speaker 1: his point of view, have this persuasive power in showing 431 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: evidence of the possibility of the general resurrection. I think 432 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 1: people often underestimate the importance of entertainment within religious education 433 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 1: and preaching. I mean, what kind preachers are the most effective? 434 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,920 Speaker 1: I personally would argue, it's very often those who are 435 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 1: the most entertaining to listen to that that really keep 436 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 1: your attention. How do you keep people's attention, You entertain them, 437 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: and having good ghost stories is one way to achieve that. Yeah, 438 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 1: I mean, when I think of of preachers that I've 439 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 1: connected with the most, they mean, they're they're always stories 440 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 1: to tell, right, I mean, they are always these Bible 441 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:27,639 Speaker 1: stories and scriptures to read. And in some cases those 442 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 1: scriptures are inherently interesting, and you know, maybe it doesn't 443 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 1: take much for a preacher to to make something interesting 444 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:35,159 Speaker 1: out of it, to make a meal out of this 445 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 1: particular scripture. Other times the scripture can be especially if 446 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 1: you're following a calendar, uh, you know, and you're just 447 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 1: this is the one you have to preach on today. 448 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: Some of those can be real dogs, or real are 449 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 1: real mountains to climb to try and make it relevant 450 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 1: um or interesting to an audience. But but a really 451 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 1: good preacher can do that. They can they can find 452 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 1: a way, like maybe you're not just focusing on the 453 00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: story in the scripture, but you're you're telling a story, uh, 454 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 1: from your life and applying it to you know, the 455 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 1: truth of supposed truths in the scripture, that sort of thing. Yeah, yeah, 456 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: there's storytelling. Is is inherent to the whole whole process 457 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 1: when it's not there. You notice regarding this this persuasive 458 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 1: presentation or whatever I think I've called it apologetic, persuasive, 459 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: rhetorical whatever, that he's saying that he's telling the story 460 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: to convince people of the resurrection. Catchiola argues that this 461 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 1: actually is uh something that's plausibly important in the context 462 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 1: because people like Titmar and uh and and Catholics at 463 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,239 Speaker 1: the time, one of the things they mainly wanted to 464 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 1: promote to the laity was the truth of life after death. Uh. 465 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,880 Speaker 1: That there was apparently doubt that the afterlife existed, and 466 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: that this doubt was incredibly threatening to the church. That 467 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 1: was perceived as one of the main things to to 468 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: fight off and be wary of. It were any doubts 469 00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:00,199 Speaker 1: about the possibility of the afterlife or of resurrection. And 470 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,399 Speaker 1: so even if this story is kind of weird, like 471 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 1: it doesn't really fit exactly with Catholic Catholic doctrines about 472 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: the afterlife or about the resurrection, it's close enough. At 473 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,880 Speaker 1: least there is resurrection. There is some kind of afterlife, 474 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 1: and because there's this strong impulse to just say, well, 475 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 1: whatever it is, you just gotta make make sure people 476 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,359 Speaker 1: understand that it is possible to achieve immortality. There is 477 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 1: life after physical death of the body, and that's good enough. Yeah, 478 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 1: It's kind of like this is the point where the 479 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 1: salesman at the car dealership has convinced you that, yes, 480 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 1: in theory, you would like a new car. You believe 481 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 1: in the value of getting a new car. Now it's 482 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 1: about convincing you that we need to get you in 483 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 1: this car today, right, thank thank, Okay, So it's time 484 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:53,639 Speaker 1: I think to get to a couple of Tee Mar's 485 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 1: other stories, which which are a lot of fun. So 486 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: for there's also a thing where, briefly, he apparently said 487 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,639 Speaker 1: just he recounts a few personal experiences. I think at 488 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 1: one point he says he heard grunts coming out of 489 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:10,120 Speaker 1: a graveyard. I thought that was good. But then there's 490 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 1: a second tale he tells us. So the second tale 491 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,959 Speaker 1: is much shorter, and then there's a tremendous third one. 492 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: The second one takes place in the yard of Magdeburgh's 493 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 1: Merchants Church, and it's spooky, but not as wild as 494 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 1: the first or third, So I'll just read directly Caciola's 495 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: translation of the story. During my time in Magdeburg, the 496 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 1: guards of the Merchants Church, while keeping watch at night, 497 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 1: experienced by sight and by hearing phenomena similar to what 498 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 1: I have described. So they brought some of the foremost citizens. 499 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 1: Having set themselves at a far distance from the cadaver cemetery, 500 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 1: they watched as lights were placed in the canned labras, 501 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 1: and then they faintly heard two parts singing the invitatory 502 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 1: and completing all the morning lauds in proper order. However, afterward, 503 00:28:55,960 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 1: when they approached, they discovered nothing. This one's interesting because 504 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 1: this sounds more like the kind of ghost stories you 505 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 1: hear people talk about today. It's like something seen very 506 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 1: faintly at a distance and heard in an uncertain way. Yeah, 507 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 1: just as that's an example of someone saying, hey, sometimes 508 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 1: we see strange lights, or I've heard that that sometimes 509 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: they see strange lights in the in the graveyard, and 510 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: and that's that's enough. Like that, just the idea of 511 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 1: that occurring and the idea that there are accounts of 512 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 1: that are are enough to tickle the imagination. Okay, but 513 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 1: time for the third tale. This is the real barn Burner. Okay, 514 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 1: let's do it. So this one is a story that 515 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 1: Tetmer says he heard from his niece Bridget about something 516 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 1: that happened in You Tracked. So I love that we're 517 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 1: getting niece stories now. Again from the translation in in 518 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 1: the catchy Alla's paper quote the next day, I told 519 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: my niece Bridget about the episode in Magdeburgh, and I 520 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 1: received this reply from her. During the eighty years or more, 521 00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: when the great man Baldric held the Holy See of 522 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: You Trecked, he renovated a church that had fallen into 523 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 1: ruin from old age in a place called Devonter. He 524 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,719 Speaker 1: consecrated it and commended it to the care of one 525 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 1: of his priests. One day, when the priest was going 526 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 1: to the church very early in the morning, he saw 527 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 1: dead people in the church in cemetery making offerings, and 528 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 1: he heard them singing. The priest informed the bishop immediately. 529 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 1: He was ordered by the latter to sleep in the church. 530 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 1: But the next night he was thrown out by the dead, 531 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 1: along with the bed he lay on. First of all, man, 532 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 1: this bishop is a tyrant. Is oh, there's dead people 533 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 1: in the church. Well, you gotta sleep in there now. 534 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 1: But then they just they just threw him out, which 535 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:41,480 Speaker 1: is kind of nice, you know, They just they just 536 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 1: threw they evicted him from the church. This is the 537 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 1: eviction of the living dead here, that's nice. Yeah, they 538 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 1: get the heck out of here. They just threw him 539 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 1: out and the bed he lay on, but then it 540 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: goes on. Terrified on account of what had happened, the 541 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 1: priest again complained to his superior about these things, but 542 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 1: the latter ordered that he should cross him himself with 543 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 1: saints relics and be sprinkled with holy water, but on 544 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 1: no account cease guarding the church. The priest followed the 545 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 1: bishop's command tried to sleep in the church again, but 546 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 1: he was struck with terror, and so lay wide awake 547 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 1: and watchful, and behold, at the accustomed hour the dead arrived. 548 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 1: They picked him up, they placed him upon the altar, 549 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 1: and they incinerated his body with fire down to a 550 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: fine ash. When the bishop heard about this, he ordered 551 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 1: a three day fast to be held for the sucker 552 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: of the dead man's soul. I could say much more, 553 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 1: my son, about all these things, if my illness did 554 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 1: not prevent me as day is to the living, so 555 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: night is conceded to the dead. And there's that line 556 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 1: we talked about last time. Actually, I guess this means 557 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 1: I may have falsely attributed that to to tit Mar 558 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 1: when he was actually quoting bridget Well. This this is 559 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: a great story, um. And and they're they're apparently variations 560 00:31:56,160 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 1: of this as well. That uh Canellia Christiansen blog post 561 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 1: from the Legends of the North dot com um. She 562 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: shares one variation from Lapland, which involves a priest who 563 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 1: dares to venture into the church during the midnight mass 564 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 1: of the dead. And he even gets up in front 565 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 1: and begins preaching a sermon to the dead. And I 566 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 1: believe he's also protected you know by various uh you know, 567 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: holy waters and and and and signs and so forth. 568 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 1: But the dead don't care, and they care him apart, 569 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 1: leaving only his intestines quote carefully swirled about the pillars. WHOA, yeah, 570 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 1: so that's that's pretty uh. I mean that that's that's 571 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: above and beyond. I mean, I like the idea of 572 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 1: them also just burning him on the altar, but just 573 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 1: tearing him apart and decorating the place with his intestines 574 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 1: like their their garlands. Uh that's also pretty nice. Well, 575 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 1: one's more wicker Man and one's more splatter punk. Yeah. Now, 576 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 1: one thing worth noticing about this tale, which is fun, is, 577 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: as far as I can tell, this third tale has 578 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 1: no living witnesses. So how does anybody know this happened? Well? 579 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,719 Speaker 1: I guess they just found the ashes, right, Like what happened? 580 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 1: He had burned up forred the rest. Yeah that's true. Okay, 581 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: I guess the only part they would really have to 582 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: supply would be the order of events the night he 583 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 1: gets burned. Yeah. I mean, it's possible that the living 584 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 1: dead were framed, but otherwise we know the living dead 585 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 1: hang out in here at night. They kicked him out 586 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 1: last time, and this time we found him burnt to 587 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 1: a crisp probably the living dead again. Well. You know, 588 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 1: another thing that's interesting here we're worth noticing is that 589 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: the reanimated dead bodies they take the priests, they don't 590 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 1: just kill him. They burn him to a fine ash, 591 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: meaning that he cannot be reanimated in bodily form like 592 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 1: they can. Interesting, and perhaps something similar is achieved by 593 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 1: just tearing him to pieces and stringing him up all 594 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 1: over the place. But there's a there's a whole subsection 595 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: of Cachiola's paper where she makes a very interesting connection 596 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: with this story, and it is this many of the 597 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 1: the European paganisms, and this probably would have and true 598 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 1: of some of the Slavic paganism that predated the Christianizing 599 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 1: mission of the Saxons here in this region. Uh. A 600 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 1: lot of these religions involve burnt offerings and sometimes probably 601 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: burnt offerings of human beings. And so it's conceivable, at 602 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:22,440 Speaker 1: least in in Catchiola's presentation, that this story about taking 603 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 1: the priest. Now, notice they don't just kill him, They 604 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: put him on the altar and burn him, suggesting that 605 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 1: this is a a deliberate form of worship, that the 606 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:36,440 Speaker 1: burning itself is worshiped to them uh. And so this 607 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 1: is a sacrifice to the gods or to the ancestors. 608 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,880 Speaker 1: That there might have been some blurring of the lines 609 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 1: there in in these pagan beliefs, and this I think 610 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,959 Speaker 1: further suggests that the story we're getting here is some 611 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 1: kind of hybrid detailed. This is a tale that may 612 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: originally involve some kind of more Slavic pagan beliefs that 613 00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 1: involve burnt offerings and human sacrifices, and that it has 614 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:04,359 Speaker 1: been given a sort of Christian reframing to tame it. Now, 615 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 1: that's hard to know for sure, but um, it does 616 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,839 Speaker 1: raise interesting questions. You might assume, Okay, now, if there 617 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 1: were sort of these underlying pagan elements in this story 618 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 1: that then has gotten this Christian window dressing, why would 619 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 1: that be? I mean, is it just possibly that ghost 620 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 1: stories are difficult to drive out of the culture. Something 621 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 1: about them is too captivating and you can you just 622 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,760 Speaker 1: find that you can't really pry them out of people's minds. 623 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 1: So instead of trying to do that, what you might 624 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 1: do is try to reframe it to to make it 625 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,719 Speaker 1: somewhat Christian, give it a generally Christian texture, even if 626 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:42,320 Speaker 1: that leads to some sort of weird, contradictory or ambiguous elements, 627 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,440 Speaker 1: like the fact that the dead are pious and murderous 628 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 1: at the same time. And then at least when you 629 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 1: do it that way, it makes it easier to give 630 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,279 Speaker 1: it this, uh, this persuasive framing that Titmar does, and say, 631 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,240 Speaker 1: see the story that you believe, you know, the scary 632 00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 1: tale that that you believe about the dead rising and 633 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:02,080 Speaker 1: burning somebody at night. Well, that just proves Christian doctrines anyway, 634 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 1: at least sort of. And from here there's a whole 635 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:08,280 Speaker 1: section in this article where Catchiola gets into talking about 636 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 1: stories from the period of elements of these stories and 637 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 1: other stories that are somewhat related that suggests that the dead, 638 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:20,479 Speaker 1: like the dead that we see, are not just sort 639 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:24,239 Speaker 1: of like only existing in the moments that they haunt us, 640 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 1: and they're also not singly focused, mindless zombies, but there 641 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,839 Speaker 1: is instead a sort of rich afterlife for the revenants 642 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 1: that they appear to have a whole functioning society of 643 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 1: their own. Uh. Like one weird detail, and there's a 644 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 1: lot of stuff like this in these stories. One weird 645 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,600 Speaker 1: detail you might not notice at first is that back 646 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 1: in the first story that te Martel's, the dead are 647 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 1: said to be giving offerings to the priest. This suggests 648 00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:56,919 Speaker 1: that the dead have possessions, that the dead have an economy, 649 00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,800 Speaker 1: and this is consistent with other pagan influenced to me 650 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,360 Speaker 1: full tales of the societies of the dead who are 651 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 1: said to lead full lives. Uh. There's one story that 652 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,960 Speaker 1: she cites that is in something called the Chronicle of 653 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 1: Henry of Erfurt, where a dead man in the middle 654 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,600 Speaker 1: of the stories is speaking to a living man and 655 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 1: or speaking to a living person, and he says, we eat, 656 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 1: we drink, we take wives, we have children, We arrange 657 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,240 Speaker 1: the weddings of our daughters and the marriages of our sons. 658 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,719 Speaker 1: We sow when we reap, and various other things, just 659 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,440 Speaker 1: as you do. But then we get the detail. Except 660 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,959 Speaker 1: they don't do it down in town where everybody else 661 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,080 Speaker 1: does it, and they don't do it on the farms 662 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:43,320 Speaker 1: with all the living. They do it inside the mountain 663 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:47,359 Speaker 1: of Sirenburg instead of down among the living um And 664 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,399 Speaker 1: and there's even more so there's weird stuff about how 665 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:54,400 Speaker 1: the dead are saying that they are, that they procreate right, 666 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:56,840 Speaker 1: that they have children, and they have their children, have 667 00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,640 Speaker 1: weddings and stuff. And it's also said that they have 668 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,480 Speaker 1: wars with other neighboring communities of dead people. So there's 669 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:09,000 Speaker 1: like a separate world of geopolitics entirely among the dead. Yeah, 670 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 1: Like up there in the mountains, there's a mountain in 671 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,279 Speaker 1: which the the good revenants reside, and there's one where 672 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 1: the warlike revenants reside, and and inside you have these 673 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:22,880 Speaker 1: whole societies that yeah, where where there's reproduction, even undead 674 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,920 Speaker 1: babies being born and growing up to live full lives 675 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:31,160 Speaker 1: underneath the mountain. Um this, this was fascinating to me. 676 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 1: I wish I could have found out more about it. 677 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:34,839 Speaker 1: I was, I was looking it up a little bit. 678 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 1: And this is um u that this uh, this is 679 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:41,000 Speaker 1: actually this is modern day Zerenberg in the German district 680 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,319 Speaker 1: of Cassal. So it's uh, if you live in this area, 681 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:46,839 Speaker 1: you go up to the mountains and make inquiries for 682 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,239 Speaker 1: us and see if you can find these dead societies, 683 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:51,759 Speaker 1: because this is usually something I mean, we don't even 684 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 1: really encounter this much in our our our fantas, our 685 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,839 Speaker 1: modern fantasy world building, where you know, there are plenty 686 00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:01,920 Speaker 1: of people plowing away in the realms of the undead, 687 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:03,879 Speaker 1: and uh, you know a lot of times, yeah, we don't, 688 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,560 Speaker 1: we don't give much. We don't, we don't subscribe much 689 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,920 Speaker 1: in the way of culture to to our our fictionalized undead, 690 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,239 Speaker 1: certainly not to the zombies. But but then you see 691 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:16,319 Speaker 1: this sometimes with vampires, where they'll be we'll we'll we'll 692 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 1: get all in, you know, on like vampire societies and 693 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 1: vampire kings and cultures and lords and so forth. But 694 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:25,040 Speaker 1: even then you don't see a lot of like vampire 695 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:29,880 Speaker 1: nurseries and vampire babies going on. You know. Yeah, I 696 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,560 Speaker 1: find it's almost all of the visions of of life 697 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:37,400 Speaker 1: after death that I can think of present life after 698 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 1: death as in some way of a kind of reduced richness. 699 00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:43,480 Speaker 1: Like you might think that the closest thing you can 700 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:46,839 Speaker 1: think of too, the dead having rich lives like this 701 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,879 Speaker 1: would be I don't know, in in Christian beliefs about 702 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,280 Speaker 1: like going to heaven or something. But even then life 703 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 1: has a kind of its life is said to be 704 00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 1: blissful and good and you enjoy God. But there's not 705 00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:01,480 Speaker 1: all there's not like, uh much drama there. There's not 706 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:03,600 Speaker 1: like a lot of like you know, politics and people 707 00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:05,920 Speaker 1: falling in love and having children and all that. It 708 00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:10,560 Speaker 1: has a reduced level of complexity when compared to to 709 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,759 Speaker 1: life here on earth. And that seems like it's always true, 710 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:15,920 Speaker 1: Like if you go back to old stories, you know, 711 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:19,399 Speaker 1: pre Christian ideas of the afterlife, like in uh uh, 712 00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:22,359 Speaker 1: in the Odyssey, when when Odysseus goes and he hears 713 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,000 Speaker 1: about what's what is life like in in the afterlife? 714 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:27,799 Speaker 1: It sounds like it's it's crappy. You know, everybody's just like, well, 715 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:31,000 Speaker 1: there's nothing much to do. Uh, Like it is that 716 00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,200 Speaker 1: reduced level of richness. It sounds gloomy and kind of 717 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:36,560 Speaker 1: like your brain isn't really there. It's kind of kind 718 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:39,800 Speaker 1: of a fog of eternity. I think, unless I'm mistaken, 719 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,000 Speaker 1: it's described that way in the epic of Gilgamesh that 720 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,000 Speaker 1: once a man is dead, it says he he just 721 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,560 Speaker 1: sort of like lies down among the dust and he 722 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:49,600 Speaker 1: eats dirt or something. Yeah, so you're either doing that 723 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:51,799 Speaker 1: or it's like hell is a place where you are 724 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,120 Speaker 1: just always screaming or having as a place where you're 725 00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:57,719 Speaker 1: just always beaming and smiling. Yeah, not not not often 726 00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:00,160 Speaker 1: a lot of added complexity. I mean, I guess there 727 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 1: are versions where hey, you're in heaven. Would you like 728 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:04,799 Speaker 1: to come back as a as an angel and uh 729 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,040 Speaker 1: talk people off of bridges? Well you can do that, 730 00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 1: or I guess there are also some variations where it's like, hey, 731 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:12,440 Speaker 1: you're in hell, um, but we have a we have 732 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,120 Speaker 1: a whole system here and you can level up if 733 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:20,680 Speaker 1: you if you work hard. Yeah, um, the only or 734 00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:24,320 Speaker 1: something Um I was actually thinking about um Alan Moore's 735 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:26,840 Speaker 1: run on Swamp thing. There's this whole plot where the 736 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 1: evil dr Anton Arcane has his soul has gone to hell, 737 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:34,160 Speaker 1: but he's just so evil that he works his way 738 00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:36,319 Speaker 1: up through the ranks and eventually gets a place of 739 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,200 Speaker 1: power again. He's a real go getter. Yeah, he is. 740 00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:42,239 Speaker 1: Um as far as like the Undead Reproduction, the only 741 00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:45,440 Speaker 1: fictional examples that come to mind, or first of all, 742 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:48,200 Speaker 1: the Crypt Keeper, where in which there is one episode 743 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:50,320 Speaker 1: of Tales for the Crypt where we're given his backstory 744 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:52,400 Speaker 1: and we find out that his mom is a mummy, 745 00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:56,440 Speaker 1: So his mom is reanimated corpse, but his dad is 746 00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:01,080 Speaker 1: a like two faced um circus mutant. Uh kind of 747 00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:06,000 Speaker 1: a situation. So there's that, and um oh, speaking of mummies, 748 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:09,200 Speaker 1: maybe maybe Egyptian afterlife has a sort of has a 749 00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:12,960 Speaker 1: level of richness and complexity, Oh very much. So, yes, 750 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,399 Speaker 1: it certainly we can't forget that if you're looking at 751 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,919 Speaker 1: the Egyptian afterlife. The Egyptian afterlife is an idea where 752 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,399 Speaker 1: you are going into an entire world where you will 753 00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:25,480 Speaker 1: need resources, you will need spells, you will have to 754 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:31,200 Speaker 1: navigate various obstacles and enemies. It's Yeah, the Egyptian after 755 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:33,839 Speaker 1: Afterlife is a strong example to bring up, for sure. 756 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:36,600 Speaker 1: The other undead example that comes to mind, though, is 757 00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:39,520 Speaker 1: that I believe it now in two different zombie films, 758 00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:44,640 Speaker 1: director Zack Snyder has betrayed a um, a strong interest 759 00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,440 Speaker 1: in zombie reproduction. He seems to really into the idea 760 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:52,360 Speaker 1: of of zombie newborns and so forth. So um, I 761 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,879 Speaker 1: don't know. Take that. Take that for as you will. 762 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:57,479 Speaker 1: I don't know. If he makes another zombie film, maybe 763 00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:09,000 Speaker 1: he'll expand on that. We can only hope than all right, 764 00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:11,759 Speaker 1: but you know enough about about the zombie movies. Let's 765 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,879 Speaker 1: get back to Christmas stuff. Okay, That's that's what people 766 00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:16,680 Speaker 1: want to hear about. And uh and indeed, I want 767 00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:19,360 Speaker 1: to come back to the idea of Yule Tide revenants, 768 00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:24,120 Speaker 1: Christmas zombies. I was reading the Ghosts of Christmas Past 769 00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:28,000 Speaker 1: by Sarah Hoffman. This was published in by the Institute 770 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:33,120 Speaker 1: of European and Mediterranean Archaeology in the Chronica Journal. The 771 00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:36,960 Speaker 1: paper centers on local customs and beliefs about the dead 772 00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:41,560 Speaker 1: and the Catholic Church of St. Nicholas on and near 773 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:45,719 Speaker 1: the island of hof Girary in Iceland. So this is 774 00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:49,239 Speaker 1: off the western coast of Iceland, north of k Vik, 775 00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:53,279 Speaker 1: but not not far off the coast. It can be 776 00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:57,440 Speaker 1: reached by boat or over the frozen ice. So the 777 00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:01,040 Speaker 1: church and cemetery here served as a major funerary and 778 00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:04,359 Speaker 1: burial destination for a large portion of western Iceland from 779 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:08,600 Speaker 1: about twelve hundred to fifteen sixty three. Then the church 780 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:12,600 Speaker 1: wind cemetery were both closed during the Lutheran Reformation and 781 00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:16,200 Speaker 1: the island was abandoned. Now the author here notes that 782 00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:19,359 Speaker 1: you know, when we talk about the Lutheran Reformation like 783 00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,600 Speaker 1: this was this was a time of of of great 784 00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:25,600 Speaker 1: change um and an often violent change. She notes that 785 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:30,360 Speaker 1: the last Catholic bishop in Iceland, John Arson, was executed 786 00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:33,120 Speaker 1: by beheading in fifteen fifty during the height of the 787 00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:37,399 Speaker 1: Lutheran Reformation. So after this took place, after this place 788 00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:41,920 Speaker 1: was abandoned, uh stories about the island and about the 789 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:45,200 Speaker 1: church and the graveyard there. They kind of dealt with 790 00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:50,200 Speaker 1: the abandonment in different ways, both to reinforce the abandonment 791 00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:53,080 Speaker 1: and to excuse it by turning the island into a 792 00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:56,640 Speaker 1: kind of forsaken and dangerous place. And this comes to 793 00:44:56,680 --> 00:45:01,040 Speaker 1: involve revenance of course, Hoffman naturally to discusses the corporeal 794 00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:05,239 Speaker 1: nature of of these undead. Quote, these restless dead often 795 00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,480 Speaker 1: emerge as a result of improper death or unfinished business, 796 00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:13,600 Speaker 1: frequently overlapping with Christmas or yield Tide. So remember we 797 00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:15,560 Speaker 1: we've already gone through a few different examples, but even 798 00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:19,840 Speaker 1: that example from the Gretist saka um that where you 799 00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:21,880 Speaker 1: have the you know, the battle, the wrestling match against 800 00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:24,440 Speaker 1: the undead beast with the moon in its eyes, that 801 00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:27,319 Speaker 1: takes place at Christmas as well as well, and she 802 00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:29,680 Speaker 1: points out that most of these tales take place during 803 00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:32,960 Speaker 1: a festival of transition, uh you know in in this 804 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:37,520 Speaker 1: example Christmas Cereal Tide, and are often set during a 805 00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:41,600 Speaker 1: time period of transition, in this case transition to either 806 00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:47,640 Speaker 1: transition to Christianity or transition from Catholicism to a Protestant 807 00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:51,839 Speaker 1: faith and um in in the in cases of where 808 00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:55,319 Speaker 1: it's like a Christian pagan uh situation we often see, 809 00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:58,040 Speaker 1: the Christian heroes are the ones that are usually the 810 00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:01,239 Speaker 1: individuals who are able to bring some sort of finality 811 00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:05,959 Speaker 1: to this disruption involving the untead. However, she does share 812 00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:08,600 Speaker 1: a tale in which the new religion does not seem 813 00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:12,120 Speaker 1: to be enough. Quote. In the story of the Deacon 814 00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:16,280 Speaker 1: of of Mirca, a deacon of of Edge of florid 815 00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:19,799 Speaker 1: Or fell in love with a woman named good Run 816 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:23,400 Speaker 1: who lived on the opposite shore of a fjord valley. 817 00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:26,000 Speaker 1: One day near Christmas, the deacon attempted to cross the 818 00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:28,759 Speaker 1: frozen river to meet his beloved, only to fall through 819 00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:32,120 Speaker 1: the ice to his death. His ghost returned to torment 820 00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:35,920 Speaker 1: Guruin for two weeks, and while a priest was unable 821 00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:40,000 Speaker 1: to help, a sorcerer quote skilled in witchcraft finally managed 822 00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:44,960 Speaker 1: to exercise the ghost. This is interesting because I um, 823 00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:49,560 Speaker 1: I remember from years ago when I visited Iceland a 824 00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:54,279 Speaker 1: story about a story from somewhere I went about a 825 00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:57,040 Speaker 1: guy who died trying to cross the river to see 826 00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:00,080 Speaker 1: his beloved. But I wondered. But I don't think it 827 00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:02,680 Speaker 1: was in a fjord valley. I think it was more inland. 828 00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,960 Speaker 1: So maybe they're just multiple stories like that. I think so, 829 00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:10,319 Speaker 1: based on what the author here shares. There are a 830 00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:13,040 Speaker 1: few key things here. First of all, when we're talking, 831 00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:14,680 Speaker 1: first of all, we're dealing with a part of the 832 00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:17,320 Speaker 1: world in which, yes, the bodies of water will freeze 833 00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:20,080 Speaker 1: and you can cross them on foot, but there's always 834 00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:22,680 Speaker 1: the possibility that you will break through and then you're 835 00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:25,799 Speaker 1: in the water, the chilling water, uh, and you may 836 00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:30,040 Speaker 1: drown and then drowning, especially when you're dealing with death 837 00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:32,520 Speaker 1: at sea, this is said to leave one in a 838 00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:36,359 Speaker 1: state uh, stuck between worlds. Uh. So there are a 839 00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:39,600 Speaker 1: lot of tales involving drowned revenance. In fact, we already 840 00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:42,600 Speaker 1: shared one in the first episode about the the guys 841 00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:44,759 Speaker 1: going to the feast and showing up anyway even though 842 00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:47,080 Speaker 1: their their boat um uh you know, wrecked and they 843 00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:51,200 Speaker 1: drowned on the way. Um. So this you know, the 844 00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:54,360 Speaker 1: idea that those who die in the water are especially 845 00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:57,319 Speaker 1: prone to return, and we actually see this in one 846 00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:00,320 Speaker 1: of the tales told to affirm the cursed and nature 847 00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:05,600 Speaker 1: of this particular church, this abandoned church. The account says 848 00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:09,719 Speaker 1: that on Christmas Even fifteen sixty three, the priests and 849 00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:13,600 Speaker 1: parishioners of the church were walking back to their farms 850 00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:17,080 Speaker 1: over the frozen tidal flats. They were broken walking back 851 00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:21,040 Speaker 1: to the mainland essentially from this island. And what happened 852 00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:25,160 Speaker 1: while the ice broke halfway and everyone drowned. So in 853 00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:28,480 Speaker 1: the entire church drowns in the water, and of course 854 00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:32,439 Speaker 1: by virtue of that, they are going to be lost souls. Now, 855 00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:35,560 Speaker 1: the author adds here that the waters off the coast 856 00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:38,400 Speaker 1: we were dangerous, and it was apparently common enough to 857 00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:42,480 Speaker 1: discover human bodies washed upon the shore from shipwrecks and um. 858 00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:44,799 Speaker 1: And many of these were even as an as an 859 00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:46,640 Speaker 1: added note, they were they were said to have occurred 860 00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:49,000 Speaker 1: on Christmas. So you'd be out on Christmas Day and 861 00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:52,480 Speaker 1: then here are bodies washed up on the shore. And 862 00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:56,319 Speaker 1: if you were to find these bodies, it's your personal responsibility, uh, 863 00:48:56,440 --> 00:49:01,160 Speaker 1: to help those bodies have a proper Christian areal. Otherwise 864 00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:03,880 Speaker 1: you're going to be cursed and the Revenant will follow 865 00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:07,000 Speaker 1: you until the end of your days. Which reminds me 866 00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:09,600 Speaker 1: of that that account of the moonlight in the eyes 867 00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:13,080 Speaker 1: of the undead creature that gretted the strong battles and 868 00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:15,960 Speaker 1: how he's essentially, uh, you know, just shaken for the 869 00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:19,680 Speaker 1: rest of his life because he saw it. But anyway, 870 00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:21,840 Speaker 1: but the idea of this, the story of the lost 871 00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:25,520 Speaker 1: congregation drowned in the ice um it was. It was 872 00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:30,080 Speaker 1: apparently compounded because after the church's abandonment the church decayed, 873 00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:33,920 Speaker 1: but not only that the burial grounds eroded. And when 874 00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:38,040 Speaker 1: burial grounds erode, what happens, well, the dead appeared to rise, 875 00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:41,800 Speaker 1: the dead are revealed, and this ended up requiring several 876 00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:44,920 Speaker 1: waves of reburial uh, you know, people having to to 877 00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:46,959 Speaker 1: go out and make sure that these bodies were given 878 00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:50,440 Speaker 1: a proper burial again so that they might rest. But 879 00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:54,719 Speaker 1: the tale, as the author, the point they're making is 880 00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:58,160 Speaker 1: that you have stories like this that we're about sort 881 00:49:58,160 --> 00:49:59,920 Speaker 1: of giving a reason why the place was a band 882 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:01,640 Speaker 1: and while it's an evil place, it's curse the dead 883 00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:04,440 Speaker 1: are coming up through the ground. Um. But also it's 884 00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:07,640 Speaker 1: kind of compounding this idea that like the people of 885 00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:10,920 Speaker 1: the church were abandoned that there you know, it's it's 886 00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:13,480 Speaker 1: a part of like making sense of of people lost 887 00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:17,200 Speaker 1: during a time of transition um. Not only a transition 888 00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:20,440 Speaker 1: between you know, one land and another, you know, between 889 00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:26,360 Speaker 1: one of the crossing of the bay here um or 890 00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:28,680 Speaker 1: a crossing a frozen body of water, but also like 891 00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:33,440 Speaker 1: lost in this transition between Catholicism and UH and protestant 892 00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:36,080 Speaker 1: is um. You know, this is making me think of 893 00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:40,840 Speaker 1: one last way to maybe interpret the the the apparent 894 00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:43,760 Speaker 1: contradiction and these stories of the church going on dead, 895 00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:46,799 Speaker 1: these uh you know, these lost beings that are at 896 00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:50,680 Speaker 1: the same time doing something that is apparently good and holy, 897 00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:54,080 Speaker 1: but then also they are menacing, which is that And 898 00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:56,120 Speaker 1: again this would connect to the you know, the kinds 899 00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:58,920 Speaker 1: of lives lead under the Mountain of Sirenberg as well. 900 00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:03,319 Speaker 1: That that just conveys complexity like that. Um, you know, 901 00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:06,759 Speaker 1: there's a kind of confusion, ambiguity and complexity real life 902 00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:10,080 Speaker 1: as well. People. There are tons of people who subscribe 903 00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:12,920 Speaker 1: to whatever religion you think is the right one, and 904 00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:14,839 Speaker 1: and you would think it is good when they go 905 00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:17,920 Speaker 1: and worship in that religion, and then they also probably 906 00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:20,480 Speaker 1: will turn around in some cases and be menacing and 907 00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:25,120 Speaker 1: threatening and terrifying. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Um yeah yeah. The 908 00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:28,279 Speaker 1: idea of the churchgoers turning around and attacking you, I 909 00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:31,640 Speaker 1: mean that may that may well track with with some 910 00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:36,520 Speaker 1: of your experiences with the with living congregations, So um, 911 00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:39,719 Speaker 1: you know, it's I think ultimately, yeah, I think one 912 00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:41,239 Speaker 1: of the things to take away from this is that 913 00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:44,520 Speaker 1: these stories are you know, do have a complexity to them. 914 00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:47,960 Speaker 1: They're they're probably saying multiple things. They're kept around there, 915 00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:50,520 Speaker 1: not only kept around, but you know, intentionally kept around 916 00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:57,520 Speaker 1: because they fulfill various purposes in life, explaining things, um, 917 00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:01,359 Speaker 1: making excuses for things um. And also like and also 918 00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:05,520 Speaker 1: just like keeping keeping occurrences alive too. Like you know, 919 00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:08,200 Speaker 1: we we what is literally the idea of a haunting, 920 00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:10,760 Speaker 1: you know, it's the idea that the dead won't completely 921 00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:13,759 Speaker 1: rest and they keep saying something or they keep appearing 922 00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:17,480 Speaker 1: and and and sometimes it seems that's a it's about 923 00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:20,040 Speaker 1: you know, it's obviously more about the living, like we 924 00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:24,120 Speaker 1: won't let those dead rest, and we have stories about them, uh, 925 00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:27,160 Speaker 1: to help them stay alive. Yes, in the same way 926 00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:30,319 Speaker 1: that we probably wouldn't embrace revenant realism. But you can 927 00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:33,360 Speaker 1: certainly imagine how if you do find a body washed 928 00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:35,279 Speaker 1: up on the shore, it's a dead person and you 929 00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:37,719 Speaker 1: see it and you do nothing about it, that may 930 00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:39,520 Speaker 1: well follow you for the rest of your life in 931 00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:42,600 Speaker 1: your brain. And uh yeah, and I think the same 932 00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:45,160 Speaker 1: could probably be be said to be true about these tales. 933 00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:47,040 Speaker 1: You know, people are probably not getting up out of 934 00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:49,360 Speaker 1: their graves to go to church at night, but it 935 00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:53,520 Speaker 1: is reflecting some kind of lingering, unresolved anxieties within say 936 00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:57,239 Speaker 1: these frontier lands and in in the process of Christianizing 937 00:52:57,239 --> 00:53:01,040 Speaker 1: a continent where where where people have memories of the 938 00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:03,799 Speaker 1: past and fears that they can't really face, and these 939 00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:06,440 Speaker 1: come through in the form of narratives that have strange 940 00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:10,640 Speaker 1: contradictions within them. Yeah, all right, well, we're gonna go 941 00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:12,640 Speaker 1: ahead and close out there, but we'd love to hear 942 00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:15,719 Speaker 1: from everyone if you've you've heard other variations of these 943 00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:20,040 Speaker 1: tales of churchgoing revenants right in, let us know, especially 944 00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:22,719 Speaker 1: if you have if you live in or have connections 945 00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:24,399 Speaker 1: to some of the parts of the world that we've 946 00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:27,960 Speaker 1: specifically discussed in these episodes. Also, I have to say 947 00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:29,879 Speaker 1: I looked around, I was I was hoping I could 948 00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:34,160 Speaker 1: find some examples from other cultures where you have either 949 00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:38,200 Speaker 1: a corporeal or non corporeal entity, that is, you know, 950 00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:41,200 Speaker 1: going to a church, where a temple and engaging in 951 00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:45,840 Speaker 1: some sort of pious activity. And um, I'm I'm truly 952 00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:47,800 Speaker 1: I missed something, But I wasn't able to find anything. 953 00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:50,839 Speaker 1: I found plenty of examples of various spirits that were 954 00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:55,200 Speaker 1: there to sort of maliciously punish those who were who 955 00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:58,560 Speaker 1: were engaging and impiety. You know that that that we're 956 00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:01,520 Speaker 1: you know, disgracing a temple or a church that sort 957 00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:06,520 Speaker 1: of thing, or mischief makers you know, um, demons or 958 00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:10,000 Speaker 1: angels that make um you know, monks fart during the 959 00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:14,640 Speaker 1: uh you know, during a mass or something. But uh, yeah, 960 00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:17,520 Speaker 1: I wasn't find able to find anything that really stacks 961 00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:20,120 Speaker 1: up with this idea of the of the pious undead. 962 00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:23,799 Speaker 1: But if I'm missing something, and surely I am, then 963 00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:25,319 Speaker 1: I would love to hear about them. So right in, 964 00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:29,520 Speaker 1: let us know. Yeah, I bet that exists in the media. Yeah, 965 00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:31,279 Speaker 1: because I mean there's so I mean, obviously there are 966 00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:34,680 Speaker 1: a lot of wonderful undead uh examples from around the world. 967 00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:36,719 Speaker 1: I was running across plenty that we're interesting in their 968 00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:39,880 Speaker 1: own right, you know, various things raised by sorcerers and 969 00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:45,000 Speaker 1: wizards and and which is things, um, you know, various ghosts, 970 00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:48,360 Speaker 1: your kai and so forth. But nothing that really matched 971 00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:50,600 Speaker 1: up with what we were talking about here. But like 972 00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:52,160 Speaker 1: I said, if I missed it, right in and let 973 00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:54,759 Speaker 1: us know. In the meantime, if you would like to 974 00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:56,719 Speaker 1: check out other episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, 975 00:54:56,760 --> 00:54:59,480 Speaker 1: you'll find core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays and the 976 00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:03,200 Speaker 1: Stuff Too Your Mind podcast feed Artifact episodes on Wednesday 977 00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:05,839 Speaker 1: listener Mail on Mondays and on Friday we do Weird 978 00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:09,080 Speaker 1: House Cinema. That's our time to set most serious concerns 979 00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:13,360 Speaker 1: aside and just focus on a strange or unusual film. 980 00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:16,439 Speaker 1: Hich Thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth 981 00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:19,040 Speaker 1: Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get in touch 982 00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:21,279 Speaker 1: with us with feedback on this episode or any other, 983 00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:23,879 Speaker 1: to suggest a topic for the future, just to say hello, 984 00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:26,719 Speaker 1: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 985 00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:36,680 Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is 986 00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:39,400 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my 987 00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:42,520 Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or 988 00:55:42,520 --> 00:56:00,520 Speaker 1: wherever you're listening to your favorite shows. My f