WEBVTT - Thinking Sideways: The Disappearance of Amy Billig 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:03.000 This episode of Thinking Sideways is not brought you by 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:07.640 Pit Pip and Cheerio. Instead, it's brought you by crime Con. 0:00:08.160 --> 0:00:10.840 That's right, ladies and gentlemen. Crime Con is happening again 0:00:10.920 --> 0:00:16.160 this year on May four through sixth in Nashville, Tennessee. 0:00:16.480 --> 0:00:18.520 We're gonna be there. There's gonna be a bunch of 0:00:18.520 --> 0:00:22.960 other big name podcasters and TV hos and writers and 0:00:23.079 --> 0:00:27.720 crime investigators overall. So you want to be there, So 0:00:27.840 --> 0:00:30.760 go to crime Con dot com and use the promo 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:34.000 code sideways to get Timber sent off. Can't wait to 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:37.200 see there. This episode has also brought to you by 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:41.040 Stitcher Premium. 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Today we're gonna talk about 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:44.440 a mystery, weird disappearance. In fact, it's like true crime 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:48.000 kind of crazy. That actually is kind of crazy the 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:50.840 celebration of crime con So we're gonna talk about crimes 0:01:50.840 --> 0:01:53.360 for a little while. Yeah, that works for me. We're 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:56.320 going to talk about the nineteen seventy four so super 0:01:56.360 --> 0:01:59.920 recent disappearance of seventeen year old Amy Billig, who disappear 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:04.080 while hitchhiking in to her father's office or art gallery 0:02:04.280 --> 0:02:07.880 or something place of work, place of war w e 0:02:08.120 --> 0:02:11.520 W during to his POW. There have been some reported 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:15.480 leads over the past forty some years about her whereabouts, 0:02:15.480 --> 0:02:17.920 but she has never been found, nor have any remains 0:02:18.000 --> 0:02:22.040 or anything like that. Quick warning, there is a moment 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:26.320 of discussion on some sexually explicit stuff, so big and 0:02:26.480 --> 0:02:29.079 little ear warnings for that if that's not your change 0:02:29.800 --> 0:02:33.160 to you know, all sizes. Yeah, and finally, before we 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:36.119 hop in, I want to thank listener Christie for being 0:02:36.160 --> 0:02:40.920 the first person to suggest this mystery. If you've suggested 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:43.600 something recently, you may have found that we started saying, 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:45.720 oh yeah, it's on the list, and we might have 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:49.079 stopped adding names to the list. I add them. So 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:55.239 that's good for you in yourself addressed and stamped envelope, 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:59.240 and we will return your prize. We don't actually star, 0:02:59.560 --> 0:03:09.560 which is your self addressed stamped envelope back to you. Everybody, 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:12.000 you really want to suggest stories, it's fine. Let's start 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:17.040 at the beginning, shall we. Amy was born on January nine, 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:21.280 nineteen seven, to loving parents and a reportedly normal home. 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:23.760 She had at least one brother. I've only ever seen 0:03:23.880 --> 0:03:26.400 reports of one brother, but I never even heard what 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:29.120 his name is. Actually I did see it, and I 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:32.360 don't remember it because he is such a tryan or something. 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:35.920 I read it. I read an article with him. It 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:38.000 was an interview with him, because he was only a 0:03:38.040 --> 0:03:41.240 couple of years younger. Is still yes, I don't know, 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:44.640 he's still couple of years younger. Um, but I don't 0:03:44.680 --> 0:03:47.520 remember his name. I'm really sorry. I'm sorry if you're listening, Yeah, 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:51.840 looking at really good research right off the top. She 0:03:53.120 --> 0:03:55.440 was enrolled in high school at the time of her disappearance. 0:03:55.560 --> 0:03:59.480 Amy enjoyed music, including playing both the flute and the guitar. 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:03.400 She was an avid reader and writer and wanted to 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:06.280 I was thinking about becoming an actress at the time 0:04:06.320 --> 0:04:09.640 because she was seventeen. She was also a very dedicated 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:13.280 vegetarian and generally described as kind of a flower child, 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:17.679 free spirit, sort of empathetic, and she was a child 0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:20.800 of the sixties, so that crap was more popular back 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:23.640 in those days. Y. Yeah, it was. Yeah. I'm not 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:27.560 really clear how this works the layout of the day 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:30.359 that she disappeared, but on the day of her disappearance, 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:34.960 which was a Tuesday, um March five, nineteen seventy four, 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:38.159 she came home from school at noon for lunch, which 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:39.599 sounds like it was the end of her day for 0:04:39.640 --> 0:04:43.040 that day. She was a senior, so sometimes you get 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:45.040 you know, you have your half days because you stacked 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:48.560 your courses that way. Sometimes well, depending on the school, 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:51.839 it's almost treated like college where you do certain classes 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:56.400 on certain days. That's stack days day Thursday afternoon class 0:04:56.440 --> 0:04:59.480 totally yeah, or she just was skipping and you know 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:02.479 she ha hand, we're okay, but that this was the 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:07.039 early seven day school. Yeah, but she was going to happen. 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:09.720 You can get a factory job it's fine. Fine, Yeah, 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:12.080 you can still afford an entire house and to raise 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:15.280 a family of four on your salary. It's fine. Anyway, 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:16.720 it sounds like that was at the end of her day. 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:19.000 Was at noon, she was coming home for lunch. Maybe 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:21.640 she was skipping the afternoon. I don't really know. It's 0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:26.480 never ever explained what was happening on that afternoon. So 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:28.520 she was going to head off and do something with friends. 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:33.400 Apparently later that day. Um, Regardless, she went home on 0:05:33.440 --> 0:05:35.600 this Tuesday for lunch, and then she called her father 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:38.680 and Ned asking for some money, either to go hang 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:40.760 out with her friends or for lunch. It's kind of 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:45.120 reported both ways. There's an alternate telling that, Um, she 0:05:46.279 --> 0:05:50.719 basically was just she just went straight to his office 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:53.919 or art gallery. I think they're the same. Ned. It 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:59.600 sounds like played the trombone trumpet trumpet, not trombone and 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:02.480 owned an art gallery. That was what he did. So 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:07.920 something tromboni or artie. Yeah. No, So she needed money 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:09.680 and she called him and said, hey, can I come 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:12.440 get some money? And he said, yeah, you for a 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:14.160 couple of minutes and I'll get here. Yeah, you gotta 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:17.080 listen to me play. Yeah, but by the way, just 0:06:17.200 --> 0:06:19.960 def why I think it was somebody on redditue said 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:22.920 he lived in Miami and said I actually knew where 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:25.640 her address was, where his place at work was there 0:06:25.640 --> 0:06:28.120 about a mile apart. Yeah, it was not very far. Yeah, 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:33.960 could have walked minutes. Christ well me anyway, Well, she 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:38.080 was um well, And it's not clear again if she 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:40.320 did go home and then go to the art gallery 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:42.920 or just was headed from school to the art gallery. 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:46.240 Either way, she had called him for some money, started 0:06:46.279 --> 0:06:50.000 walking there, never showed up. This was pre cell phone. 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:52.080 You will remember, some of you will remember pre cell 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:56.599 phone times. We will all of us in this. Yeah, 0:06:56.680 --> 0:06:59.280 that's true. But so I think her dad probably just 0:06:59.400 --> 0:07:02.039 assumed she didn't end up not needing the money. So 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:06.560 it's fine, I'll see her tonight, you know, they do. Yeah, 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:08.120 or you know, maybe she found a twenty all or 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:09.560 bill in her pocket or something, you know what I mean, 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:13.840 It's fine, Uh those what I mean? You know, if 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:15.760 she found some money in her jeans at home or 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:21.080 something and decided, oh, I don't need sorry anyway, like 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:22.800 I said, didn't show up to pick up the money. 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:25.240 She also didn't show up to hang out with her 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:28.080 friends and I think her friends probably called the house. Again. 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:32.040 This is a really severely underreported part of this story, 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:37.200 this whole how it happened, Yeah, which is kind of 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:39.520 frustrating because I feel like there's a lot of details 0:07:39.520 --> 0:07:42.120 in there that would have been really helpful to know. Yeah, 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:44.360 I know, like I've never been totally clear on if 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:46.400 her mother was at home when she arrived home, or 0:07:46.640 --> 0:07:49.880 she talked to her mother any Yeah, based on the 0:07:49.920 --> 0:07:52.239 stuff that her mother has said, I get the feeling 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:55.120 that no, mom was not. Yeah, I get the feeling 0:07:55.160 --> 0:07:57.640 that they don't really know if she went home or 0:07:57.680 --> 0:08:02.680 if she just had was heading straight to the art gallery. Reportedly, 0:08:02.840 --> 0:08:05.560 she went home and changed her clothes from her school 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:07.600 clothes to her going out clothes and then was walking 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:13.200 to her father's gallery. But since the friends the time 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:16.560 and the friends didn't, you know, I guess they must 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:19.800 have called or something. But otherwise, her parents found out 0:08:19.840 --> 0:08:23.160 that she hadn't shown up and they thought, oh, she's 0:08:23.160 --> 0:08:28.360 probably missing then, and the my sense is that they 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:31.040 reported her missing in the appropriate time frame and that 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:33.440 you know, blah blah blah blah blah. Right she was seventeen, 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:39.680 they did, Yeah, And once that was kind of pushed out. 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:45.079 Some construction workers said that, of course it was. They 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:48.440 were working on her route from her home to the 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:50.559 gallery and they saw her walk past, which is why 0:08:50.600 --> 0:08:54.760 I think they figured she had gone home and they 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:59.560 just stand around. Anyway. She was wearing a men denim 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:03.720 minis sret and cork heels, so they guess we're the 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:06.160 last people to have seen her. As a construction worker. 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:09.000 You should be careful of just cat calling it, every lady, 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:11.920 because it might be the last person she sees. Yeah, 0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:14.600 it's true, and then you're gonna be guilty forever. Um. 0:09:14.640 --> 0:09:16.800 And I think I didn't mention this, but the road 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:19.280 that she was walking down was a road called Main 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:23.840 Highway in the neighborhood Coconut Grove, which is in Miami, Florida. 0:09:24.720 --> 0:09:28.840 It's often reported that she was hitchhiking along the road, 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:34.760 but you know, like Joe said, it was a mile are. Um. 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:37.520 You know, I know from reports from her brother, he 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:40.360 said they hitch hiked around the neighborhood, and she particularly 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:44.000 hitch hiked around the neighborhood all the time, and her 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:45.560 parents knew about it, and they were like, it's a 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:48.160 friendly neighborhood and you know, it's it's safe, it's fine 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:50.040 for you to hitchhike around the neighborhood. But again, it 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:51.880 was only a mile, so I don't really know. Maybe 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:54.960 the heels were uncomfortable. I've certainly been in that situation 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:57.679 before where I've put on some new shoes because you know, 0:09:57.720 --> 0:10:00.280 I was feeling myself and then started walking king and 0:10:00.360 --> 0:10:03.680 was like, oh my god, this is the worst. Yeah. 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:05.720 Or maybe she's walking down the road and somebody she 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:08.320 knew just stopped by and said he want to write, 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:10.720 or even somebody she didn't know just pulled over and said, hey, 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:12.000 do you want to write down the road and she 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:16.240 was like, yeah, because are not scary? Yeah they are, 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:20.360 you know, your long haul taxi service. Yeah. So a 0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:22.880 search at this point is conducted. It didn't come up 0:10:22.880 --> 0:10:25.680 with anything. The family and the people who knew Amy 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:28.960 didn't feel like they she had just left voluntarily, like 0:10:29.040 --> 0:10:32.760 she hadn't run away from home for instance. Yeah, and 0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:34.440 as far as I can tell, the police seemed to 0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:37.920 have done their job. Though. Again, if this story is 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:39.880 started starting to sound familiar to you and you don't 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:42.280 really know why that is, it's because it was an 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:47.720 episode of Unsolved mysteries, and as happens with these cases, 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:51.600 it ends up that most of the reporting is kind 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:54.280 of whatever was in that episode, A lot of people 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:57.800 report that stuff as being fact. Yeah, well, not only 0:10:57.880 --> 0:10:59.880 is it fact, but it also means that if they 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:03.040 leave out big chunks of the story, those big chunks 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:05.439 of the story tend to get lost to history. So 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:08.480 we don't know a whole lot about the initial investigation 0:11:08.679 --> 0:11:12.360 because Unsolved Mysteries didn't seem to give a hoot about it. 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:15.080 How many times we talked about that we have, we 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:17.360 talked about a lot. So so this is where actually 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:18.920 you can actually be well served to get off the 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:20.840 Internet and go to your library and actually get a 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:23.400 book about this stuff. Because I looked in the past, 0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:25.200 you find a lot of stuff that you just can't 0:11:25.200 --> 0:11:28.480 find in the Yeah, or otherwise look at um newspaper 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:31.640 articles or something like that is really really great. I 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:33.920 found a couple of newspaper articles that we had used 0:11:33.920 --> 0:11:36.840 the way back machine for for this one. That was helpful, 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:39.400 but they were still from you know, the early two thousand's, 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:42.360 so nothing nothing really from well, there was one from 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:47.040 even Some of the older stuff that I found was 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:52.080 very thin. Yeah, because this was the time when you 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:57.319 kids started disappearing and they maybe they were just they 0:11:57.360 --> 0:12:02.840 just ran away. Yeah, especially at especially at seventeen, you know, 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:05.880 I think police often felt like, well, they just you know, 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:09.440 they went away. And when she met and sorry mom 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:12.640 and dad, but she's off happily living with the new boyfriend. Yeah. 0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:15.760 But Um, like I said, it does appear that the 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:20.040 police did their job. There was a lot of reporting, 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:24.680 at least in the Florida area about her disappearance. Um. 0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:28.280 A few days after her disappearance, a man who had 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:32.800 heard about Amy's disappearance, I'm sorry keeps saying disappearance turned 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:39.040 in a camera o evacuation. Maybe a man who had 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:43.160 heard about Amy being missing turned in her camera, which 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:45.960 he said he had found near the Wildwood exit off 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:49.240 the Florida Turnpike. I've always wondered about the camera thing 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:53.640 was it actually was? It was right below the under 0:12:53.640 --> 0:12:58.040 the lens she had her name was written, but it 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:02.760 actually was that keeps losing her camera? What? But probably 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:06.920 used one of those sticker like the one like Bart 0:13:07.000 --> 0:13:10.840 Simpson had in that episode. Yeah, but for those of 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:14.320 you who are not familiar with Florida, so like everybody 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:18.240 even most people who live in Florida. Um. The that 0:13:18.360 --> 0:13:22.880 exit of the turnpike is about fifty miles north of Orlando, Florida, 0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:26.360 which means that the camera was about two hundred and 0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:29.760 seventy two miles away from Coconut Grove. So it's not 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:33.479 like whoops, you know, on the way to the gallery 0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:36.760 she dropped her camera. It's a big old drive. Well, 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:39.640 there's a perfectly and as an explanation, she probably pawned 0:13:39.640 --> 0:13:47.040 the camera because she did want money. No, and this 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:50.640 does come with the caveat that it's really unclear if 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:53.840 Amy had her camera with her when she disappeared, or 0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:57.720 if it had even maybe been stolen prior. Her parents 0:13:57.760 --> 0:14:00.440 it sounds like couldn't say, you know, for a couple 0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:03.600 of weeks even that they had seen Amy with the camera. 0:14:04.160 --> 0:14:06.360 So you know, maybe she did put it because she 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:08.720 was seventeen and felt like she needed money. She probably 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:12.319 maybe somebody stole it from her a couple of weeks before, 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:16.160 but also maybe it was or maybe it was connected 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:19.400 to the disappearance. It's almost impossible to tell. Three weeks 0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:25.240 after Amy went missing, Sue Uh's mom Susan Sue, I've 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:28.640 been calling her Sue the entire time, but I don't 0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:33.360 really know. I'm really sorry. Yeah she did pass away, 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:37.600 but sorry if that's not anyway, Sue got a call 0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:39.040 in the middle of the night, or I guess the 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:43.480 Billings did. Yeah, both of them have passed away but 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:47.560 then passed away in nineteen three. When the calls started, 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:50.760 they were both living and living together. Sue answered the phone, 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:52.760 but it was dead air on the other end, so 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:55.360 she hung up in the words nobody there. Not even 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:58.280 the breathing. Well, no, it was breathing. I mean, they 0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:00.920 could have been a breathing. She didn't say she could 0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:03.760 hear the breathing, but it wasn't just like dial tone 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:06.400 or anything like that. So after she young up. A 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:11.000 few minutes after that, the phone ring again, she answered 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:14.760 dead air. A few minutes after that, when Sue answered 0:15:14.760 --> 0:15:18.280 the phone because it was ringing again, she was pretty 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:20.760 sure at this point that it was Amy calling from 0:15:20.760 --> 0:15:24.320 beyond the grave. No, just like you know, to say, Mom, 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:26.600 I love you, I'm safe for something, I mean, you know, anything, 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:33.280 trying to exactly. So Sue started to plea with Amy. 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:37.760 She was asking her to come home. Yeah, she's telling 0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:41.440 her she loves her. Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. This goes on 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:46.880 for almost five minutes UM, at which point Sue decides, Okay, nobody, 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:49.760 She's not gonna say anything, right, Amy's not gonna say anything. 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:52.280 I'm gonna hang up. So she hangs up. And this 0:15:52.360 --> 0:15:54.960 goes on for a few weeks before the police get involved, 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:57.640 which they did, which again leads me to believe the 0:15:57.640 --> 0:16:01.760 police were really doing their job. They started Florida have 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:05.960 to be on the ball down there. They sure don't. Um. 0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:08.320 So when they did get involved, they started tracing the 0:16:08.360 --> 0:16:10.600 calls and found they were coming from a phone booth, 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:14.760 which they started staking out. Once they started their surveillance 0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:17.680 on this phone booth, however, the phone calls started coming 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:22.040 from a different telephone booth convenient interest. They must have 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:24.640 had an end at the police department. Yeah, this game 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:28.240 of Captain Mouse went on for a while and Sue 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:31.800 was getting these like silent calls. They would they were 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:34.000 able to kind of figure out there was I don't know, 0:16:34.120 --> 0:16:37.800 four or five phone booths that who the caller was 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:42.720 in like a certain kind of radius um And it 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:45.200 was pretty much like there were four or five, and 0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:47.880 they would stake one out and then they would still 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:50.800 all the while still tracing calls, and they'd be coming 0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:52.440 and the call would come from a different phone booth 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:55.120 and they were just like, oh my god, what but 0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:58.200 they obviously this is not a big enough profile case 0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:01.520 to send cops to. Well, I don't think they had 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:05.480 the research. Would take months to make a call something yeah, yeah, 0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:10.960 that's what I meaning it out. And then and then 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:13.800 the caller would just walk up and like put up 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:18.960 one of those one of those sandwich signs, free donuts. No, 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:23.320 I know what actually happened. Let's continue here. After five 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:27.680 months of silent calls, the caller finally spoke, Um, so 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:31.720 Sue was getting these calls couple night at least pretty 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:34.680 consistently at this point, that we're just silence for five months. 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:39.680 And then finally the caller did identify himself as Hal 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:43.600 Johnson and told Sue I have her. These calls continued 0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:46.600 for years, like we said, while while the police continue 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:50.040 to search for how they could not figure out which 0:17:50.240 --> 0:17:52.359 one of the booths he was going to make a 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:56.320 call from. And as we said, the phone with him 0:17:56.560 --> 0:17:59.880 a minnutt a couple of minutes. Sometimes it depends. She said, 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:02.200 you know when the silent ones were happening. She would 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:04.520 sometimes sit on the phone for five minutes of dead air, 0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:07.879 like literally five minutes of dead air. But it seemed 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:10.399 like she was always the one who hung up. It 0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:13.760 wasn't him usually, So I don't really know. It just 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:15.440 seems to me like what they should have done was 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:18.760 put in a second line and then when he calls, 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:21.280 just call the police right away. They just go hit 0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:23.480 all those phone booths all at once, you know, and 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:26.520 just bam and have them, you would think. But so 0:18:26.840 --> 0:18:30.280 here was the thing that, well why not? They were 0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:32.280 staking it out there? There was a lot of trouble. 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:33.840 They went to a lot of trouble take in the 0:18:34.000 --> 0:18:36.440 very very beginning, yes, but I have a feeling that 0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:38.960 by this point enough time had gone by that they 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:41.400 had given up. Well so, I mean, they were also 0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:44.680 starting to suspect that How was able to identify their 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:48.320 undercover cars, because clearly, you know, they would stick out 0:18:48.359 --> 0:18:50.760 any given one, and it just happened that he wasn't 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:54.919 using that one. That's absurd. They also, um the other 0:18:55.000 --> 0:18:57.280 thing that's important here for people to know is that 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:01.520 some nights, um How would call who literally like dozens 0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:04.320 of times in a given night, and then he would 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:08.000 go months sometimes, like you know, five months, six months 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:11.480 without calling her at all. So there was no real 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:14.879 rhyme or reason except for that whenever Sue was in 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:19.439 the news locally, she could pretty much guarantee that how 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:22.880 it was going to call her. Um horrible stuff too. Yeah, 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:27.159 he kind of what what happened is the calls escalated, right, 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:30.840 So we said for a good five months there was silence. 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:33.280 Then for a couple of months he would just kind 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:38.600 of say have her and you know whatever. Then he um, 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:42.080 he told Sue that Amy was learning quickly and that 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:48.120 he was her she was his sex slave. He yeah, 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:52.360 he got really really explicit and like a little weird. Um. 0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:57.000 Some choice quotes from him include, um, I've smoothed her out. 0:19:57.080 --> 0:19:59.280 She knows just how to please, and I can tell 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:01.440 you she knows how to use her mouth just in 0:20:01.520 --> 0:20:08.760 the right way. Wants to hear. Yeah. He eventually started 0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:12.000 tracing her movements even he said that he was loaning 0:20:12.280 --> 0:20:16.240 Amy out to other men. He said that eventually he 0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:20.560 had quote sold her to the ragheads and Saudi Arabia 0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:26.560 unquote sorry his quote not um where she had quote 0:20:26.600 --> 0:20:31.040 perfected her art unquote, He, yeah, I'm sorry about all 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:34.240 of this. He detailed really awful things that are way 0:20:34.400 --> 0:20:37.639 worse than anything I'd ever want to say on this podcast. Um. 0:20:37.720 --> 0:20:42.240 And these calls continued until three, which is nineteen years 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:51.040 of him just saying horrible, horrible, awful things in it changed. 0:20:51.320 --> 0:20:54.800 You may remember we mentioned a few minutes ago that Ned, 0:20:54.960 --> 0:21:00.680 Sue's husband, and Amy's father, passed away, at which point 0:21:00.840 --> 0:21:05.880 after How or after Ned passed away, how, the first 0:21:06.000 --> 0:21:09.200 call that that Sue got from How after Ned passed 0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:13.680 away was, UM, he said, you're all alone now, aren't you. 0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:17.200 You better watch your back? H nice guy. And then 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:22.040 he started to detail some more stuff, basically saying that 0:21:22.680 --> 0:21:26.560 how How said we want you because apparently he was 0:21:26.640 --> 0:21:30.040 part of some like organization. I don't really know, but 0:21:30.280 --> 0:21:34.240 basically they quote unquote wanted Sue to join Amy because 0:21:34.240 --> 0:21:37.040 they've gotten tired of Amy's age, which would would have 0:21:37.080 --> 0:21:41.800 been thirty six at the time. Age. Ye, she would 0:21:41.800 --> 0:21:44.560 have been thirty six at that time. It really took that. 0:21:44.880 --> 0:21:47.639 It was years, yeah, it was twenty years. Yeah. So 0:21:47.840 --> 0:21:51.000 he he said that everybody had gotten tired of how 0:21:51.080 --> 0:21:53.800 old Amy was, so they wanted a mother daughter duo, 0:21:53.960 --> 0:21:56.760 and they wanted it to be Sue and Amy's too old. 0:21:57.080 --> 0:21:59.159 Mommy will make it better, right, I don't really know. 0:21:59.440 --> 0:22:02.560 I don't really want to go into how where that 0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:09.600 goes in the brain, but oh god, it's really awful. Um. Anyways, 0:22:10.000 --> 0:22:12.639 the FBI got involved at this point and helped the 0:22:12.680 --> 0:22:14.920 police track the person who had been making these calls. 0:22:14.960 --> 0:22:17.640 Because you may or may not remember, the twenty years 0:22:17.760 --> 0:22:20.840 is a long time, especially in this time period, and 0:22:21.000 --> 0:22:24.080 especially as it pertains to technology. So as Hal had 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:27.520 started making these phone calls at phone booths, cell phones 0:22:27.600 --> 0:22:33.720 became a thing and he started calling from a cell phone. Yeah. Well, 0:22:34.080 --> 0:22:37.760 so the thing that's really interesting here is, um, they 0:22:37.880 --> 0:22:43.440 almost might not have um. The FBI used some It 0:22:43.560 --> 0:22:45.640 was a couple more years before the technology really really 0:22:45.680 --> 0:22:49.200 caught up to the technology that Hal was using, but 0:22:49.359 --> 0:22:53.000 they finally were able to trace the cell phone number 0:22:53.520 --> 0:22:57.080 that Hal had been using for the last couple of years. Which, again, 0:22:57.160 --> 0:23:00.480 remember tracing technology, all of that sort of stuff that 0:23:00.600 --> 0:23:05.360 takes a while to catch up. So cellphones were a thing. Yeah, 0:23:05.520 --> 0:23:07.680 so cell phones were a thing for a while before 0:23:07.960 --> 0:23:11.159 anybody could be tracing cell phones, they were able the 0:23:11.240 --> 0:23:13.640 FBI was able to trace this cell phone number two 0:23:13.680 --> 0:23:17.240 and address which the police went to check out. And 0:23:17.560 --> 0:23:21.160 it turns out the address was a federal drop site 0:23:21.200 --> 0:23:24.119 linked to the U. S. Customs. I know a federal 0:23:24.240 --> 0:23:26.520