1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And 4 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: today we're gonna be taking a look at interior spaces. Yeah, 5 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: the year certainly brings to mind the old curse, May 6 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: you live in interesting times? And one of the factors 7 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: here has of course been the coronavirus COVID nineteen pandemic, 8 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:34,240 Speaker 1: and in an effort to fight the spread of the illness, 9 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:37,239 Speaker 1: save lives, and prevent overwhelming our hospitals, we've made a 10 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: lot of changes to our lives and these range from 11 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: the simple such as just wearing a mask when you're 12 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: out in public and you can't social distance from people, 13 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: to the harder choices about employment and uh in life choices, 14 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: we've all been social distancing and stay at home orders, 15 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: teleworking and quarantine have meant that we've all been spending 16 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: a lot more time at home now. Depending on your home, 17 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: this could mean a lot of things, but we wanted 18 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:06,959 Speaker 1: to explore what this means from a biological standpoint for 19 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: the most part here now now, make no mistakes, spending 20 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: more time at home has absolutely been the right move. 21 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: But just as it's forced you to focus more on, 22 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: say that weird staying on your ceiling, we wanted to 23 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 1: focus on the other, often unseen aspects of life in 24 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: the home right much the same way that being say 25 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 1: on a Spanish galleon out in the middle of the 26 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: ocean might have made you pay much more attention to 27 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: the biology and behavior of of ship rats than you 28 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 1: ever would have otherwise. I think being at home more 29 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 1: and more is forcing all of us to turn our 30 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:43,400 Speaker 1: eyes and maybe our microscopes and magnifying glasses to the 31 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: corners and the cornices, and the shower heads and the 32 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: drain traps and all of the wonderful places in our 33 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: house where life dwells. Yeah, we're gonna really get into 34 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: the difference really between the natural world outside of our 35 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: homes and the unnatural world inside, and get into some 36 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: ideas about how how we could perhaps enable our interior 37 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: world to be a little more on the natural side 38 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: of things. But before we get into all that, I 39 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 1: wanted to take a moment here just to discuss the 40 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 1: history of houses in general, you know, just to get 41 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 1: into the concept of what a house is. Our our 42 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: first and still most important interior artificial environment. So you 43 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 1: can certainly look at a home as an artificial cave 44 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 1: to a certain extent. And indeed, we have lots of 45 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:35,640 Speaker 1: early evidence that early hominids sought out shelter in caves 46 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: in the same way that many other animals do. UH. 47 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 1: These can shelter one against the elements and against predators, 48 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 1: And as recently as a hundred and thirty thousand years ago, 49 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:50,639 Speaker 1: cave dwellers were already augmenting these natural interior environments with 50 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: things like rough stone walls. They were using timbers so um. 51 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: So you know, even a hundred thirty thousand years ago, 52 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: we were taking naturally occurring interior space paces and making 53 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: them a little less natural. Um. And of course, on 54 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: top of just the shelter that caves can provide, it 55 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:09,799 Speaker 1: also seems that caves had a strong sacred meaning to 56 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,959 Speaker 1: many of these UH prehistoric peoples. Those might be important, 57 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 1: but ultimately proximity to water is far more important. Thus, 58 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: as Kate Spence and Brian M. Fagan point out in 59 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: UH in the section of the seventy Grade Inventions of 60 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 1: the Ancient World about homes, most early hominids lived out 61 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: in the open near streams and lakes, they built temporary structures, 62 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: and most of this has been lost to time, but 63 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 1: some of the earliest evidence of potential structures for homes 64 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: goes back one point seven two point seven million years 65 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: ago with Homo erectus sites in southern Africa, and these 66 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: were potentially contemporary with the domestication of fire um and 67 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 1: these would have been temporary tents, but but they still 68 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: would have been artificial interior environments. Now more secure evidence 69 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: come from the Ukraine roughly forty four thousand years ago, 70 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: the mammoth bone structures from Maladova, which we recently discussed 71 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: on the show. Actually, yeah, we did uh talking about 72 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 1: these uh. That would have been structures in one of 73 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 1: the northernmost habitable regions of the Earth at the time, 74 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 1: because this was during a time of glacial advance where 75 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: the polar ice caps from the north were coming deep 76 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 1: down into Europe and Asia and uh and so this 77 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 1: would have been far far north, way up among the 78 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: ice and for some reason humans were building these structures 79 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: out of the bones of mammoth and we don't know that. 80 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: There's still things we don't know about those structures, like 81 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: how how consistently they were inhabited and for how long 82 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,919 Speaker 1: and so forth. Right Now, beyond this, the history of 83 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 1: human homes is is largely dictated by local resources and 84 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 1: a local climate. A long process of trial and air 85 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: ends up leading to the development of regional and cultural 86 00:04:55,600 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: building forms construction methods. But before nine tho see we 87 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,479 Speaker 1: see evidence of clay houses in Palestine and what is 88 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 1: today Palestine, and before seven thousand b C. We see 89 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: rectangular dwellings in Anatolia. But but at home is far 90 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: more than just a shelter. As the authors here point out, 91 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: houses became key to social structure as well. They point 92 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: out that the ethnographic studies in West Africa reveal complex 93 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 1: and layered symbolic associations and rituals in the context of dwelling, 94 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 1: and that this is it shows that a clear role 95 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: of physically structuring and expressing the relationship between different members 96 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: of the household. And we see this of course in 97 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 1: um and cultures. You know, throughout history and throughout the world. 98 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:47,039 Speaker 1: There's this physical shape of the place, uh, and then 99 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 1: that ends up defining or influencing like that, there's this 100 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:53,840 Speaker 1: this feedback between the two. It goes both ways. Right, 101 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 1: it's kind of like pouring a liquid into a container. Oh, 102 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: of course. And this actually got me thinking about how 103 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 1: having permanent, constructed dwellings must have changed the way that 104 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 1: power and hierarchy are expressed in social groups. And of 105 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: course this is true with normal social status. You know, 106 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: it's it's staked out through displays of wealth. There certain 107 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: kinds of taste or aesthetics in your house, your apartment, 108 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: your you know, your living space. But this also made 109 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: me think about the way that for many leadership positions, 110 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: there is a special house, there's a special dwelling place 111 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: that comes with the job, rather than belonging to an individual. 112 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:33,160 Speaker 1: So here in Georgia we have the governor's mansion. There 113 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 1: is the White House there, you know, the palace that 114 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: the king stays at in many cultures, and there's a 115 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:43,039 Speaker 1: there's a strange metonomy that derives from this. Often the 116 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 1: house identified with the position of power is used as 117 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 1: a metaphorical stand in for the person, you know, like 118 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,599 Speaker 1: today the white House said such that, like, the permanent 119 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 1: dwelling place is actually almost the source of the power, 120 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 1: and there just happens to be a particular person living 121 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: there right now. Yeah, it's weird. We get so used 122 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,840 Speaker 1: to it because it's just part of our daily um, 123 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: you know, our daily you know linguistic world. You know, 124 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: you can read the news, you read about these various locations, 125 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: these houses, and it's almost as if they have some 126 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: sort of intrinsic power to them, right, I mean, if 127 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: you weren't familiar with their cultures, you would read this 128 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 1: then and people might think, oh, well, they they clearly 129 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: thought that this big, white um house had some sort 130 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 1: of magical powers and whoever was allowed to go inside 131 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: it became the ruler of a country and got to 132 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: do whatever they want. Yeah, And it's funny that it's 133 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: so normalized for us, like we've forgotten to notice that 134 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: that's weird that like the power is somehow linked to 135 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,679 Speaker 1: the house itself. Um. But it also makes me wonder, 136 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,679 Speaker 1: you know, did we think about power differently before living 137 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 1: in artificially built environments? Yeah? To what extent did we? Um? 138 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: Did we end up yet changing the way we live 139 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: our lives by altering this physical environment which we live? 140 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 1: I mean it makes sense, right, because so much of 141 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: what we do, you know, it's dictated by the environments 142 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: that we evolve to thrive in right. So anyway, I 143 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: don't think we need to remind everyone about the value 144 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 1: of a home. Housing tends to be one of, if 145 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: not the most expensive parts of your life, but it's 146 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: it's interesting to think about them not simply as this 147 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: valuable thing in your life, for a valuable location where 148 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: your life takes place. The basic idea of the house 149 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: may be as old as our mastery of fire, and 150 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 1: it forms out of and forms ideas of who and 151 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: what we are, and of course it may do so 152 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: in more and more powerful ways every year, as humanity 153 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: slowly transitions to become a more indoors e on average species. 154 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 1: All the time, I was reading some interesting figures about 155 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 1: this trend in a book by the science writer Emily 156 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:50,679 Speaker 1: and This uh in the book is called The Great 157 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: Indoors The Surprising Science of How Buildings shape our behavior, health, 158 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 1: and happiness. This is a really interesting book and I'm 159 00:08:57,800 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: going to refer to it throughout this episode because she 160 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: has an early chapter that's very good about the microbial 161 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: ecology of indoor spaces. But she also gets into some 162 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:11,599 Speaker 1: interesting territory about the trends in how much built environment 163 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: and floor space we're actually creating. Obviously, this currently varies 164 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: a lot by culture and climate, but in some parts 165 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: of the world human kind is transitioned to an almost 166 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 1: entirely indoor existence. And this really shows in the way 167 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:30,439 Speaker 1: we've transformed our environments to convert to this largely indoor existence. 168 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: Uh Anthes writes, quote, the island of Manhattan is only 169 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: twenty three square miles in size, but has three times 170 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 1: that much indoor floor space. And furthermore, she refers to 171 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: a report put together by a United Nations commission in 172 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:50,959 Speaker 1: which concluded that over the next forty years, humankind is 173 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 1: going to roughly double the amount of indoor floor space 174 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:57,839 Speaker 1: that exists currently. And the way this works out is 175 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: quote those additions are equivalent to building the current floor 176 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: area of Japan every single year from now until Wow. 177 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: That much floor is going to take a lot of 178 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:14,319 Speaker 1: pine sawl Yeah. I mean it is crazy to think 179 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: about how certainly during pre pandemic times, you know, you 180 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 1: would you had this home, this interior space that you 181 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: live in, you sleep in, you bathe in, you spend 182 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: time in, and then uh and it is you know, 183 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 1: very much like the center of your life. And then 184 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 1: you're getting into another interior space, which happens to be 185 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: motorized and on wheels, and use that to travel then 186 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 1: a certain distance to another interior space that you'll go 187 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 1: into to work, either set at a desk or you know, 188 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: work with some sort of machinery or what have you. Uh, 189 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: and then at the end of the day back into 190 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 1: this uh, motorized interior space and then return to the 191 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:57,559 Speaker 1: one in which you live. It's worth remembering yet again, 192 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 1: biologically speaking, this is not normal. This is not like 193 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: what our bodies are naturally adapted to. Spending this much 194 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 1: time indoors is still fairly historically novel, and it is 195 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 1: very weird. Yes. But the other big thing, and this 196 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 1: is going to be a recurring theme throughout the rest 197 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: of the episode, is that these artificial spaces that we made, 198 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: they are they're not completely alien, you know, they're they're 199 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,959 Speaker 1: constructed all of the natural world. They're not the natural environment, 200 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 1: but they are made out of it. And uh and 201 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 1: and much of the natural world is still present, just 202 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: in um rebalanced and unbalanced ways. Uh. So that that 203 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 1: is going to be what we're going to really get into, Like, 204 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:47,599 Speaker 1: what in creating these interior spaces, what sort of environments 205 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: have we created? Right, Indoor spaces are not unnatural in 206 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 1: that they're completely separate from the rest of the world, 207 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: but they're also not just like outdoor spaces. They're kind 208 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: of like a special niche environment, like a like a 209 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: cliff face or an island. You know, it's a place 210 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: where you have to investigate. Okay, what kinds of life 211 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:12,079 Speaker 1: from around and other places are going to colonize this space? Yeah? 212 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 1: And and who are your roommates? Who are your inhuman 213 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 1: roommates in this space where you've been trapped? Uh these 214 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:21,320 Speaker 1: past several months. Well, maybe we should take a break 215 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 1: and then when we come back, we can start talking 216 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 1: about those in human roommates. All right, we're back, so uh. 217 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: Rob Donne, a professor of applied ecology at North Carolina 218 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 1: State University and Raleigh, wrote an excellent book titled Never 219 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: Home Alone. From Microbes to Millipedes, camel, crickets and honey bees, 220 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: then Natural History of Where We Live. That's a nice 221 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 1: long title. I know you'd be like those those long 222 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 1: coland titles, want like a whole paragraph after the colon, 223 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: but it's it's it's hard as they go. It's pretty 224 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 1: good title. Anyway, it came out last October and it's 225 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,680 Speaker 1: currently available in all format. So however, you read your books. 226 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 1: But I remember hearing an interview with the author around 227 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 1: the time that came out, and I picked it up 228 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 1: for this episode because it's, yeah, it's it's it's just 229 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 1: a very well written book and it really gets into 230 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: some just crazy, uh mind bending facts about these artificial environments, 231 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: most of which we won't even really be able to 232 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 1: get into in this episode, but we wanted to touch 233 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 1: on it. So if you look around its science papers, 234 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 1: you'll find Dunn's name um all over the place when 235 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 1: it comes to this area of microbial life. For instance, 236 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 1: he's the co author on a two thousand eighteen paper 237 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: that found that chimpanzee tree top beds, which are like 238 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:42,559 Speaker 1: a daily affair, contained fewer microbes and Arthur pods than 239 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 1: human beds, which is not shocking given again the the 240 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: idea that ore beds that are kind of like set 241 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 1: in place, Um, you know, we will change the sheets, 242 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:54,839 Speaker 1: but it's not every night probably, whereas the chimps are 243 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: going to be refreshing things a bit more. Also, thirty 244 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 1: of the bacteria in human beds stem from our own 245 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:05,439 Speaker 1: bodies and includes fecal, oral, and skin bacteria. Yeah. The 246 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: way I heard it put, because this is covered in 247 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: Anthesis book too, is that with the with the human bed, 248 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 1: basically you're just gonna find tons of human type stuff 249 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: in it. But for a chimpanzees bed, you will find 250 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: you know, bugs, arthur pods, and microbes in in this bed, 251 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: but they're almost all from the surrounding environment. Uh. The 252 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: way it was put was that you might not be 253 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: able to tell that a chimpanzee had ever been there. Right, 254 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 1: very strange. But from Anthesis book there's uh So there's 255 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: a chapter that discusses a lot of the work of 256 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 1: the same researcher, robbed On, the the ecologist at North 257 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: Carolina State, but also a researcher that he's collaborated with 258 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: a lot named Noah Fierre, who's a microbiologist at u C. Boulder, 259 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 1: And there's a part where it talks about a survey 260 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: that they tried to conduct called the Wildlife of Our 261 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: Homes Project. There was a pilot study they started in 262 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: North Carolina, and so they would do was they would 263 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 1: get a bunch of families to take cotton swab samples 264 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 1: of seven different surfaces from inside their homes, and this 265 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: would include a countertop, a cutting board, a refrigerator shelf, 266 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 1: a pillow case, a toilet seat, a TV screen, and 267 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: then the trim around an interior doorway. And the results 268 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: were interesting. They found more than two thousand types of 269 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: microbes in these samples, and there were distinct microbial habitats 270 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 1: within the house. So perhaps on surprisingly, kitchens would have 271 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: a lot of bacteria that are naturally associated with food 272 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: that might be you know, found on food or aid 273 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 1: in the decomposition of food. Meanwhile, doorways would have a 274 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: lot of environmental species stuff you might find outside the house, 275 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 1: you know, things you would find on plant leaves and 276 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 1: in the soil. But then this was the quote that 277 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 1: really stuck with me, And this writes quote from a 278 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: microbiological perspective, toilet seats and pillow cases looked strikingly similar. 279 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 1: But we're dominated by bacteria that typically live on our 280 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: skin and in our mouths. All right, So that's that's 281 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 1: kind of a shocking sounding statement that might make you 282 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 1: want to instantly go and wash your pillowcase and maybe 283 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 1: your toilet seat too. But but but hold on, wait 284 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: till we get through the whole episode, because I think 285 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 1: one of the big tacomes here is like, if you 286 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 1: think that your pillow is going to be a microbial 287 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 1: sterile um experience, you know you should think again, likewise 288 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: with the toilet seat, likewise with anything in the house. 289 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: So in Dunn's book, one of one of the things 290 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: he drives home is that again our our house environments 291 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 1: are again not natural environments, but they are made out 292 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 1: of the natural environment, and they are not cut off 293 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: from the natural environment. So what we end up with 294 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: is an artificial environment that kind of mashes up all 295 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 1: of these various environmental parameters, sometimes in surprising ways, especially 296 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: when it comes to microbes, because if we as we've 297 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: discussed on the show plenty of times before, there is 298 00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: no microbe free living our bodies, independent of anything else, 299 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 1: our home to multitudes of microbes. To come back to 300 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 1: a quote that we've pulled up on the show in 301 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 1: discussion in the past. In a Life in a World 302 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: without Microbes by Gilbert and Newfeld published in PRST Biology, 303 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 1: the authors contend that quote it would be false to 304 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: claim that macroscopic life cannot exist without microbes. However, although 305 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: life would persist in the absence of microbes, both the 306 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 1: quantity and quality of life would be reduced drastically. So 307 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:29,919 Speaker 1: Done points out that even the outer layer of our 308 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:34,439 Speaker 1: skin is just this rich microbial environment. Our armpit bacteria 309 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 1: are essentially fed by glands nurturing what has likely been 310 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: an historically important microbe passenger. And we can we can 311 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:45,679 Speaker 1: look at this as an example of the sort of 312 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: microbe that then thrives in our creative environments. We tend 313 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,880 Speaker 1: to find the same bacteria uh that that that thrives 314 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 1: in our under arms living in our homes, especially homes 315 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: where males live. If there's like a predominantly male population 316 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 1: of a house sold, you will find this particular bacterium. 317 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: I believe it's uh corn a bacterium just thriving Coarina bacterium, 318 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: Coarina bacterium. Yes. Yeah, So this thing about the sex 319 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 1: composition of the household versus the household microbiome was also 320 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: mentioned in anthesis book, and it's very interesting. So just 321 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 1: as you say, homes with more male residents tend to 322 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: have higher counts of bacteria such as Rosa burria and 323 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: this is commonly a gut bacteria, as well as Karina 324 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 1: bacterium and Derma bacter and uh at this points out 325 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:37,959 Speaker 1: that these are most common on the skin. Now, Coarina 326 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 1: bacterium is often found in the armpit. As you say, 327 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: it is a contributor to body odor. But also it's 328 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 1: been found that just on average, men tend to have 329 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 1: more Coarina bacteria on their skin than women do, and 330 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: men tend to shed more skin microbes into the environment 331 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,880 Speaker 1: than women do. And then on the other hand, households 332 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 1: that have more women living in them tend to have 333 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 1: higher counts of Lactobacillus, which is our old friend from 334 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:05,919 Speaker 1: the fermentation episode. I don't know if this translates to 335 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: a workable difference, maybe not, but it makes me wonder 336 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,119 Speaker 1: if it's possible that houses occupied by higher numbers of 337 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:16,159 Speaker 1: women might be a better place to make sauerkraut. Interesting, 338 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: just some to think about, but sort of. What this 339 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: suggests is that humans are walking fountains of microbes. We 340 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: we shed our microbial passengers everywhere we go, and it 341 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:31,120 Speaker 1: turns out this can be kind of quantified to creepy levels. 342 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: So consider this. No two people's microbiomes are exactly the same. 343 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: Each person is a unique ecosystem. So if everybody has 344 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:45,200 Speaker 1: their own unique profile of microbiota, and everybody is shedding 345 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 1: microbial life all the time, are we essentially leaving identifiable 346 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:53,399 Speaker 1: microbial evidence of our presence everywhere we go, you know, 347 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: kind of the slug trail of our microbiome all over 348 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: the place. And the answer appears to be kind of yeah. 349 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: At this reports one study led by Jack Gilbert at 350 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: the University of Chicago. I think that might be the 351 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: Gilbert of the Gilbert and Neufeld study that you mentioned 352 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 1: a minute ago. But it followed three families that were 353 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: in the process of moving into new homes. And what 354 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: Gilbert and colleagues found was that each family began to 355 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: colonize the new house with their microbes within just hours 356 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 1: of arriving there. Uh. And that the researchers quote could 357 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: even detect the individual microbial contributions of each family member. Uh. 358 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: And then Gilbert says, people who spent more time in 359 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:42,680 Speaker 1: the kitchen, their microbiome dominated that space. People who spent 360 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,439 Speaker 1: more time in the bedroom, their microbiome dominated there. You 361 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:53,159 Speaker 1: could start to forensically identify their movement. Oh wow, So 362 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 1: this this makes one try to imagine like law and 363 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 1: order microbiology, yes, surveillance biotech. Yeah. But to come back 364 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 1: to to Rob Dunn's example about Corina bacteria in homes, 365 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 1: especially where males live. You you had an interesting thing 366 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 1: about that, Yeah, because he brings up a very curious 367 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: case of of an interior environment in interier home that 368 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 1: had a predominantly certainly at the time of the study, 369 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: had a predominantly male um population, and that is the 370 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:29,439 Speaker 1: International Space Station. So this was basically there was a 371 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: study of the micro buyouta one finds inside the I 372 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 1: S S. This was conducted in two thousand thirteen by 373 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:41,400 Speaker 1: Jonathan Ien, a microbiologist at u C. Davis. So, the 374 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:43,959 Speaker 1: the I S S done rights, is very much like 375 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:47,199 Speaker 1: a house on Earth. Quote, in nearly every way, the 376 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 1: bacteria of the I S S are the sorts of 377 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 1: bacteria we would expect in a house on Earth if 378 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,879 Speaker 1: all the environmental influences were removed. I S S is 379 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 1: what you get when you scrub and scrub and close 380 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 1: the windows, doors and hatches. So the I S S 381 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: might be kind of like a very well scrub department 382 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: in a high rise in a big city. Yeah, I mean, 383 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: there's there's no outside to get inside, right, Um, I 384 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: mean immediately so obviously, um, stuff can be brought up, 385 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 1: but anyway, done also points out that in this study 386 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: of iss microbes, quote, everything was everywhere. The interior was 387 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 1: just codd in human bacteria, and nothing from outside was 388 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 1: getting in. Obviously. He points out that in a small 389 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 1: traditional home made out of mud and leaves, which would 390 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,120 Speaker 1: have been you know, the normal for the vast uh, 391 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 1: you know, the vast majority of human existence, everything would 392 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: be everywhere as well, but environmental microbes would be everywhere. 393 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:47,400 Speaker 1: What's outside would be inside. But for the I s 394 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 1: s there there is no outside. Really, it is a 395 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,719 Speaker 1: you know, this sterile environment that is then inhabited by 396 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: human beings certainly, but then inhabited populated by human microbes. 397 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 1: So so environmentally sterile, but heavily colonized by what the 398 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 1: humans bring with them, right, He writes, quote, if you 399 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 1: scrub and scrub your home, this is what you may 400 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: achieve too. It is not unlike what we see in 401 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 1: some apartments in Manhattan, And as we and others have 402 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: begun to study such apartments, we have found a problem. 403 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 1: The problem is not what is present, but instead what 404 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 1: is absent. The problem has to do with what happens 405 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: when we create homes devoid of nearly all biodiversity except 406 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 1: that which falls from us, and then for twenty three 407 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,400 Speaker 1: hours of the day we don't go outside. So they're 408 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 1: kind of getting high on our own supply here. Yeah, 409 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's exactly. I mean, it's we're in 410 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 1: these interior worlds. We're not we're actually going to great 411 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 1: pains and many times or just by the virtue of 412 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 1: the shape of our cities, in the shape of our lives, 413 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,439 Speaker 1: we're not bringing anything in or we're ringing in as 414 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: little as as possible, and except for everything that just 415 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 1: sheds off of us. This kind of like constant um um, 416 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 1: you know, fog of detritus that we're leaving in our way. Now, 417 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 1: this isn't to say there aren't some really interesting things 418 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:08,119 Speaker 1: living in the average human home. In his book, Done discusses, 419 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 1: for instance, the thermophilic bacteria Thermus aquaticus, which normally thrives 420 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: in hot springs and geyser's uh, you know, kind of 421 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: a you know, a specialist in that regard, but you 422 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: can pretty much rely on the fact that you can 423 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: find it in your hot water. Here a part of 424 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 1: your artificial environment that recreates environmental conditions that it finds favorable. Yeah. 425 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:37,680 Speaker 1: Anthes discusses the research on shower heads. Apparently there tends 426 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 1: to be a lot of bacteria living in biofilms. And 427 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 1: biofilms are you know, these mats that microbes make when 428 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:49,639 Speaker 1: they gather in big concentrations. For example, the dental plaque 429 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: on your teeth is a biofilm. These tend to form 430 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 1: on shower heads in our showers. We don't know exactly why, 431 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 1: but maybe because you know, hey, it's the shower, doesn't 432 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 1: it just get mean by itself, Like do I really 433 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,119 Speaker 1: need to clean it? Uh? It is clean, it's water 434 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,400 Speaker 1: coming out of it, exactly. It's kind of the logic 435 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: that's like, why would I ever need to wash my 436 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 1: bath towels? You know, they only touch me when I'm 437 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 1: at my cleanest um. But Anthus quotes Noah Noah Fear, 438 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,920 Speaker 1: explaining that when hot water suddenly starts shooting out of 439 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 1: the shower head where these films are perched, it creates 440 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 1: this kind of mist and spray that carries bacteria with it, 441 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 1: and then of course, standing there under the spray in 442 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 1: the shower. We ingest that spray, we breathe it right in, 443 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,360 Speaker 1: and Fierra says, quote, I think it's a really important 444 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 1: mechanism by which we're exposed to bacteria. Which, okay, so 445 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,199 Speaker 1: you might be thinking again like, oh my god, my 446 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 1: shower head, you're filled with horror, But it's not necessarily 447 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: a bad thing. Again, like a lot of our exposure 448 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 1: to microbes is either neutral or beneficial, though of course 449 00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 1: not all of it. Yeah, yeah, the bio films in 450 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:04,200 Speaker 1: your shower head contained mostly harmless bacteria, but it but it. 451 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:09,360 Speaker 1: Interestingly enough, it includes non tuberculosis uh micro bacteria, which 452 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 1: are relatives of leprosy and tuberculosis. Um. The interesting thing 453 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: here is that their chlorine tolerant. So while the chlorine 454 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: in a like a major metropolitan water system kills a 455 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,159 Speaker 1: lot of the micro organisms that it might otherwise be 456 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:27,400 Speaker 1: found there, it doesn't hurt these guys and actually creates 457 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:31,120 Speaker 1: room for them to grow and to thrive. So they 458 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 1: are otherwise quite rare, and say, well water, uh, these 459 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 1: are I think I read that these biofilms are typically 460 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,920 Speaker 1: found in general, are found in swamps totally adapted to 461 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:45,399 Speaker 1: altering between wet and dry conditions much like your shower head. Um. 462 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 1: But yeah, in the natural world, they're just gonna have 463 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,880 Speaker 1: their their niche to occupy. But we've created an artificial 464 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 1: environment where they have room to just really grow and 465 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:58,679 Speaker 1: thrive and then of course rain down upon us, and 466 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,399 Speaker 1: there could be health and cations about those microbacterial films. 467 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: We don't know for sure, but there's a there's a 468 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:08,639 Speaker 1: possibility Anthes talks about. She writes, quote in fact, Fire 469 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 1: and Donne discovered that showerheads harboring potentially dangerous strains of 470 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 1: microbacteria clustered in the same regions mentioning Hawaii, southern California, 471 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 1: Florida in the mid Atlantic that are known to be 472 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: hot spots for microbacterial related respiratory infections. So the question 473 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: is are people getting these infections from their shower heads 474 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,439 Speaker 1: of Fiarre suspects that might be the case, but that 475 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily mean your shower head is making you six. 476 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: Some microbacteria, when inhaled, are are not harmful. They might 477 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 1: even strengthen your immune system. Now Done points out that 478 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 1: that we've been studying microbiota in our homes actually since 479 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 1: the earliest days of microbiology. Uh, you have. This individual 480 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,919 Speaker 1: by the name of Anthony van Lewenhoek who lived sixteen 481 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 1: thirty two through seventeen twenty three, and he's often called 482 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: is the father of microbiology and and weirdly enough, he's 483 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 1: possibly the model for two different Vermeer paintings. I don't 484 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: know if you've read about this. Yeah, um, well, I 485 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: encouraged listeners to look it up. It's pretty fascinating. Like, 486 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 1: basically he knew Vermier and may have posed for these paintings. 487 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 1: But he's the first individual known to have engaged in 488 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 1: this sort of study. He charted the microbial populations of 489 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 1: his own house, of his own body, and also some 490 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,400 Speaker 1: neighbors homes and bodies. Um with permission I believe. But 491 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 1: but after his death, no one really bothered with the 492 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,199 Speaker 1: sort of study again until we realized later that some 493 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: of the microbes we encountered could make us sick. And 494 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 1: so it's really it's it's really getting into modern times 495 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 1: here where we're finally, uh, taking a close look at 496 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 1: our household microbial environment with researchers like done playing a 497 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 1: key role. Um. Here's another great quote where he's just 498 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:58,239 Speaker 1: talking about, you know, undertaking this this project and what 499 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: they expected to find. He says, quote, we expected to 500 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: find hundreds of species. Instead we discovered depending on just 501 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 1: how you do the math, upward of two hundred thousand species. 502 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 1: Many of these species are microscopic, but others are larger 503 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: and yet nonetheless overlooked. Breathe in inhale deeply. With each breath, 504 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 1: you bring in oxygen deep into the alveoli of your lungs, 505 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 1: along with hundreds or thousands of species. Sit down. Each 506 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 1: place you sit, you are surrounded by a floating, a leaping, 507 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: crawling circus of thousands of species. We are never home alone. 508 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 1: And this is on top of tins and perhaps hundreds 509 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 1: of different types of vertebrates, as well as various plants. 510 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 1: And then there are the arthropods and the fun guys. 511 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,960 Speaker 1: Something like forty thousand species of fungi that can be 512 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: found in the home um. But the bacteria are just 513 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: really the crazy Party points out that more species of 514 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 1: bacteria have been found in human homes than there are 515 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 1: species of birds and mammals on Earth. Yeah. This type 516 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 1: of research is also explored in in ant this book, 517 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 1: where there's a section where she talks about how done 518 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 1: and fear followed up on their initial research from you know, 519 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 1: asking people to take the swabs from the different parts 520 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 1: of their home to find out what was there. They 521 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 1: decided to do like a bigger, deeper study of the 522 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 1: microbes found specifically along the trim of interior doorways. And 523 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 1: they picked this area because nobody ever cleans it, so dust, 524 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 1: you know, collects for years maybe without being sterilized, and 525 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 1: this would give you potentially a fuller inventory. And they 526 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 1: just found enormous numbers of bacteria. In anthesis book, the 527 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: number is over a hundred and sixteen thousand species of bacteria, 528 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: more than sixty three thousand species of fungi. And the 529 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: count of fungi species was especially interesting to them because 530 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 1: they found more numbers of species of fungi in these 531 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: samples around doorway trims than there are named species of 532 00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: fungi in all of North America. So it means that 533 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 1: inside our houses, it's it's very likely that there are 534 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 1: species of fungus that have not yet been discovered or 535 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 1: cataloged by science. And they also found that that for 536 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: some of these samples, there was more uh fungi diversity 537 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: inside the house than outside the house, which interest which 538 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 1: reminds me of the scene in Primer where they don't 539 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 1: realize they've created a time machine yet and they think 540 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:30,719 Speaker 1: that that the box that they put together as an 541 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 1: incubator for mold. Oh I forgot about that detail that 542 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 1: a while since have seen that one. And fungi in 543 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 1: our homes are somewhat different than bacteria in our homes, 544 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 1: so that they have a different, different vectors in different 545 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 1: ways of living. Anthests discusses how the bacteria in our 546 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: houses they mostly come from us and from the other 547 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 1: creatures that live with us, like dogs, and we'll get 548 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: into more on that in a bit, but the fun 549 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 1: guy are not as populous on and in our own bodies. 550 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: They tend to come more from the environment outside. And 551 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 1: what kind of fungi are found within a home is 552 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 1: largely determined by where the home is regionally, in the 553 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 1: climate around the home, what kind of fungi are prevalent 554 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 1: in the exterior environment. But there are other factors that 555 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: have an effect as well. And there's one that I 556 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 1: found very interesting. It was what the house is made of, 557 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 1: And she quotes from done saying it's kind of a 558 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 1: three pigs thing. A stone house feeds different fungi from 559 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: a woodhouse from a mud house, because unlike the bacteria, 560 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 1: they're eating the house. So it's like, what have you 561 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: put out on the buffet for them? Yeah, I mean again, 562 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 1: it comes down to the fact that our home is 563 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 1: not this um, this alien thing, you know, it is 564 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 1: made out of the natural world, and therefore there are 565 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: things that want to eat it. They eat those materials 566 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 1: that made up your home. Uh So, yeah, it's it's 567 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 1: easy to overlook that. But yeah, it makes perfect sense. 568 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 1: So obviously, I'm sure some people despite our our warnings 569 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 1: early on or like, okay, I'm just getting the bleach. 570 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: I'm gonna sterilize my entire living space. Maybe now we 571 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: should explain why that that might not be a good idea. Yeah, 572 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 1: that that might be your inclination. And and really it 573 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 1: kind of falls in line with what advertising has has 574 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 1: been has been telling us for years, you know, the 575 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: sort of world that we grew up in, where it's 576 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 1: like we got to disinfect the house, you gotta keep 577 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: the house clean, as if there is this absolute cleanliness, 578 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: this nobiotic um aspect of our homes. But but this 579 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 1: way of thinking is essentially treats our homes again like 580 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 1: some sort of lifeless, nobiotic box, hermetically sealed from the outside, 581 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:43,520 Speaker 1: an impervious to occupation by anything but the presumably nobiotic 582 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 1: creatures living inside it. But all of this, you know, 583 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: nothing could be further from the truth, because nature of 584 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 1: horrors of vacuum and your home will come to harbor 585 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 1: a robust ecosystem. But our actions and our choices have 586 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: an effect on that ecosystem, as we saw with the 587 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 1: showerhead in the and the water heater or example above. 588 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 1: You may keep certain things out, but that just means 589 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 1: there's more room for other things to make themselves at home. 590 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:09,239 Speaker 1: All right, Well, we need to take a second break, 591 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 1: but we will be right back with more than thank 592 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:18,920 Speaker 1: thank Alright, we're back. So raining anti microbial death down 593 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,840 Speaker 1: on your apartment or house is is also crazy, given that, 594 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: as Done and Sebastian Tilt discussed in a two thousand 595 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 1: nineteen study published in Nature Ecology and Evolution, only a 596 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 1: relatively small proportion of the micro organisms in our environment 597 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,799 Speaker 1: actually cause disease. It's also worth noting that insects and 598 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,399 Speaker 1: other arthur pods, especially spiders that live in in the home, 599 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:48,839 Speaker 1: are important actors in the ecosystem, as they can exterminate mosquitoes, bedbugs, cockroaches, 600 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 1: and house flies, all of which actually can transmit diseases. 601 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,160 Speaker 1: And it's not a universal thing around the world that 602 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 1: people see a spider in their house and say, oh, 603 00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 1: we've got to kill that. Like some cultures are much 604 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 1: more taller rent of spiders with the knowledge that they're 605 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:07,400 Speaker 1: performing this important cleaning service. Yeah, I personally like seeing 606 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,439 Speaker 1: the spider in the bathroom every day. You know it's 607 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 1: it's a friend. You know that it's it's he or 608 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 1: she is working to to to help make this bathroom 609 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:20,400 Speaker 1: a better environment. In that paper by Done and Tilt Uh, 610 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 1: the authors agree that there there's simply no need to 611 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 1: weigh devastating war against all of these organisms, but more 612 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:27,880 Speaker 1: to the point, a lot more work is needed to 613 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 1: determine just what sorts of environments are more susceptible to 614 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,879 Speaker 1: the bad stuff. Another interesting wrinkle in all of this 615 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 1: is that and and this is one Done discusses in 616 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 1: his book, is exactly what household dogs reveal about the 617 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 1: contrast between the exterior ecosystem and our interior worlds. Dogs 618 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:51,840 Speaker 1: are amazing at bringing you filth that I think about 619 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 1: this with my dog every day. It's like every single 620 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,440 Speaker 1: day he's like, let me nourish your microbiome. Well, I 621 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 1: think ultimately the way to look at it is the 622 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 1: dog is not just bringing filth in. The dog is 623 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 1: nurturing your filth. Like there's going to be filth if 624 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 1: you wish to categorize the microbial world as filth. Uh, 625 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: there's no escaping it. Um. So the dog is ultimately 626 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,480 Speaker 1: just bringing something to the equation. So for a lot 627 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:19,320 Speaker 1: of us, we tend to leave our our artificial interial world, 628 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:21,799 Speaker 1: you know again, hop into another one that happens to 629 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,279 Speaker 1: have wheels, travel, does to work, come back, etcetera. A 630 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: lot of us do get out into the natural world, 631 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:29,880 Speaker 1: but there are plenty of us that don't do it 632 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 1: on a regular basis. If you have pets, indoor only 633 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,839 Speaker 1: varieties contribute to the microbial stew that is your home. 634 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:40,160 Speaker 1: But there's no beating a dog for a bridge between 635 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 1: inner and outer ecosystems. There's also no beating a dog 636 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 1: just in general. I don't want to encourage anybody, but 637 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 1: for starters, your dog is likely drawing you out into 638 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,840 Speaker 1: the outside environment. Uh, you know, you're gonna probably hopefully 639 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 1: you're gonna take your dog on walks, You're gonna, you know, 640 00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:59,360 Speaker 1: go out into the world with it. But at the 641 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,920 Speaker 1: very lead, that dog is going out to get all 642 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,319 Speaker 1: up in the natural world and then bring some of 643 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,319 Speaker 1: it back home. This, this has been your experience with 644 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 1: his a dog owner. Correct. Now, Now, there's certainly harmful 645 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,359 Speaker 1: possibilities here, such as if your dog were to bring 646 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,719 Speaker 1: back fleas or ticks, and this has always been an 647 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 1: issue with ancient Egyptian dog remains showing signs of brown 648 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,799 Speaker 1: dog ticks, which certainly do carry pathogens. But there's also 649 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:29,399 Speaker 1: a plethora of harmless effects and a seemingly beneficial um 650 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 1: impact as well. Done points out that by looking at 651 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:35,880 Speaker 1: household microbes alone, first of all, one can tell if 652 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 1: there's a dog in the house at all of the time. 653 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 1: The dog just leaves a microbial footprint that's hard to 654 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 1: mess But beyond this, it's hard to tell at this 655 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:51,279 Speaker 1: point what specific effects dogs and cats have on the 656 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,160 Speaker 1: inner and microbial environment, because there's a lot of complexity there. 657 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: But Done says that we certainly see, especially in urban 658 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 1: environments with dogs, that the children in those households are 659 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 1: less prone to allergy and asthma. So the dogs might 660 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:08,880 Speaker 1: actually be a vehicle connecting the children to nature, and 661 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,400 Speaker 1: just the dirt on their paws, for instance, might be 662 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 1: enough uh to essentially provide some sort of uh replacement 663 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:23,120 Speaker 1: for spending time in nature and in the natural microbial environment. Yeah. 664 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:25,560 Speaker 1: This is the connection to what used to be known 665 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:30,239 Speaker 1: as the hygiene hypothesis, though Anthesy notes that some researchers 666 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,200 Speaker 1: have pointed out that this name can be kind of 667 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:36,279 Speaker 1: misleading because the point of the hygiene hypothesis is not 668 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:39,719 Speaker 1: that you like, shouldn't wash your hands. Uh. It's more 669 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 1: about having an exposure to a diverse array of microbiota 670 00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:48,680 Speaker 1: early in life can, if this hypothesis is correct, help 671 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,400 Speaker 1: help strengthen your immune system in various ways and make 672 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:54,200 Speaker 1: you less prone to say, allergies and asthma and things 673 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 1: like that. More recently, people have tried to to recoin 674 00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,759 Speaker 1: this thing not as the hygiene hypothesis but as the 675 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:04,560 Speaker 1: old friends hypothesis, Like the the natural microbial world is 676 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:08,200 Speaker 1: an old friend that we should reacquaint ourselves with, and 677 00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 1: that it's good to get acquainted with early in life. Uh, 678 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 1: not necessarily that you like shouldn't wash your hands or 679 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:16,560 Speaker 1: shouldn't wipe down the counter after you've been slicing chicken 680 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 1: or something. Yeah, now this is primarily with dogs. With 681 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,399 Speaker 1: with cats, there seems to be far less of a connection. Uh. 682 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:27,000 Speaker 1: And also it's noted that in rural environments, uh, we 683 00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,960 Speaker 1: see less evidence of this and the ideas that individuals 684 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,520 Speaker 1: in a rural environment are probably getting more exposure to 685 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:35,759 Speaker 1: to the outside of the natural world in general, so 686 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 1: the dog isn't going to make that much of a difference. 687 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:40,640 Speaker 1: The dog is less of a tap of hot and 688 00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:43,719 Speaker 1: cold running exterior microbes. And I think all of that 689 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:47,440 Speaker 1: helps to underline, you know, our desire and our inn indeed, 690 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:49,840 Speaker 1: our need to get out of the house and interact 691 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,120 Speaker 1: with nature on a regular basis. Uh. Dunn says that 692 00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:55,200 Speaker 1: that one day we might be able to manage our 693 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,120 Speaker 1: interior microbiota in a way that will help ensure that 694 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,520 Speaker 1: we're healthy and uh and that you know, everything's in balance. 695 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:04,840 Speaker 1: But for now that's just not the case. We just 696 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 1: we don't understand and enough of we haven't explored, uh, 697 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 1: the the interior world enough to know exactly what we're 698 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,359 Speaker 1: dealing with. And again, like what kind of environments are 699 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:16,880 Speaker 1: are more prone to be occupied by the bad stuff 700 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:19,680 Speaker 1: versus the the the beneficial stuff, or the stuff that 701 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,680 Speaker 1: is just uh there and part of the world we 702 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:24,680 Speaker 1: live in. Though, I think it is clear that built 703 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,560 Speaker 1: environments do make a difference. Uh that we we don't 704 00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,640 Speaker 1: fully understand exactly what all the causal relationships are yet, 705 00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:34,720 Speaker 1: but there have definitely been measured differences that show, for example, 706 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:38,080 Speaker 1: where rooms are placed and what their relationships to other 707 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:41,840 Speaker 1: rooms where different things happen, uh, that that does affect 708 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:46,040 Speaker 1: what kinds of microbiota we find in those rooms. Just 709 00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:49,600 Speaker 1: the example of having open windows that open to the 710 00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:52,160 Speaker 1: outside world as opposed to having a room that's all 711 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,359 Speaker 1: closed off to the outside world and just ventilated by 712 00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,360 Speaker 1: you know, HVAC systems. That makes a difference to what 713 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:01,359 Speaker 1: the microbiome of the room look like. Yeah, I mean, 714 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:04,680 Speaker 1: I mean even if the windows don't open. You know, 715 00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:07,320 Speaker 1: we've looked at studies before, they've looked on the psychological 716 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:10,040 Speaker 1: impact of just being able to see the outside world, 717 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,680 Speaker 1: especially in hospital environment. Uh. And we do know a 718 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:15,799 Speaker 1: few other things too, Like one of the things that 719 00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,440 Speaker 1: ant this mentions it seems to be a pretty straightforward 720 00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,760 Speaker 1: finding is that one good way to encourage healthy ecosystems 721 00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,480 Speaker 1: of microbes within the house is basically to keep the 722 00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:28,640 Speaker 1: house dry. Moisture seems to activate a lot of unwanted 723 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,480 Speaker 1: fungal activity, but you can still have a lot of 724 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:35,440 Speaker 1: healthy microbes with the house that's that's relatively dry. Uh. 725 00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:37,440 Speaker 1: You know that. She says that a lot of these 726 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:40,080 Speaker 1: experts who are looking at this do not recommend using 727 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,320 Speaker 1: anti microbial agents in the house, as you've been talking about. 728 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:45,719 Speaker 1: So there are a few things we know, but yeah, 729 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,200 Speaker 1: there's still a whole lot more to learn about the 730 00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:53,399 Speaker 1: interactions between our our living space architecture and our home 731 00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:58,680 Speaker 1: cleaning regimes and all that stuff with the microscopic invisible world. Yeah, 732 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:00,520 Speaker 1: and it's interesting. I mean, obviously it's gonna be more 733 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:03,719 Speaker 1: of a challenge and damper environments, say like, um, you know, 734 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,279 Speaker 1: a rainforest environment. But I guess there, I guess one 735 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:09,359 Speaker 1: is tempted to to ask the question, well, what are 736 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,960 Speaker 1: the traditional modes of housing? You know, what were the 737 00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:16,719 Speaker 1: were the were the trial and error developments in housing 738 00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:21,120 Speaker 1: there versus the um that the modern solutions that have 739 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:25,799 Speaker 1: been brought in from other environments without perhaps without really 740 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:30,200 Speaker 1: taking full account of the local conditions. Yeah, that's an 741 00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:33,520 Speaker 1: interesting question. I haven't considered that. Yeah, I mean, I 742 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,120 Speaker 1: don't know. You walk around any given neighborhood, right and 743 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:39,560 Speaker 1: you you you see these trends and homes and occasionally 744 00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:41,799 Speaker 1: you'll see a home that is that it's clearly out 745 00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:43,520 Speaker 1: of place. But it makes you wonder, like, just how 746 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:46,399 Speaker 1: out of place is it? Is? The design like not 747 00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:50,439 Speaker 1: suited for the you know, the energy consumption rates or 748 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,640 Speaker 1: the or or just the like the the level of 749 00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:55,920 Speaker 1: the amount of sun you get in a given part 750 00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:58,840 Speaker 1: of the world, that sort of thing. Uh, you know, 751 00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:01,040 Speaker 1: I think one of the things we can take from 752 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:04,879 Speaker 1: this episode is that homes are are far more complicated. 753 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:08,160 Speaker 1: They're not just the the space we in which we live, 754 00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:11,279 Speaker 1: you know, a container for our lives. Like they they're 755 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:15,360 Speaker 1: gonna shape who we are on a microbial level, on 756 00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:19,799 Speaker 1: a symbolic level, Um, it's uh, you know, it's it's 757 00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:24,080 Speaker 1: it's mind blowing stuff, definitely. And then sometimes you find yourself, 758 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,920 Speaker 1: you know, during a pandemic, spending a lot of time 759 00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:31,680 Speaker 1: in your closet recording podcasts in your laundry room. Yeah, 760 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:35,600 Speaker 1: rooms that were never designed or intended for this kind 761 00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:39,440 Speaker 1: of lengthy habitation. Luckily, my my closet here does have 762 00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:42,280 Speaker 1: an air event in it um, which has been a lifesaver. 763 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:47,239 Speaker 1: I don't think my laundry room does around for it. 764 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,319 Speaker 1: I have I've had a few sweaty times in here. Well, 765 00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:52,680 Speaker 1: it's this good news for when the winter sets in, 766 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:54,920 Speaker 1: right for both of us, because I think this is 767 00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:56,959 Speaker 1: gonna be pretty cozy in here. And if you get 768 00:43:57,480 --> 00:43:59,279 Speaker 1: cold in the laundry room, you can always just turn 769 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:01,960 Speaker 1: on the dryer. I'm really trying to get it's set 770 00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:04,080 Speaker 1: up so that I can record from a different room. 771 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:06,279 Speaker 1: I'm trying to to make a different room in the 772 00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:08,600 Speaker 1: house less echoy, so I can get good sound and 773 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:11,480 Speaker 1: not have to hunch over next to the washing machine. 774 00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:14,919 Speaker 1: I am digging an earthen pit in my backyard, which 775 00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:19,640 Speaker 1: I am told will have a really good uh sound installation. 776 00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,920 Speaker 1: So we'll see how that goes. Mammoth Bones Studio. Yes, 777 00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,280 Speaker 1: all right, Well, there you have it. Hopefully this provides 778 00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:28,560 Speaker 1: some some food for thought. Again, we're not trying to 779 00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:33,560 Speaker 1: encourage anybody to go on a any kind of a 780 00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:37,800 Speaker 1: killing spree in their house concerning microbes or Arthur pods 781 00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:41,200 Speaker 1: or anything like that. Uh, just we thought that as 782 00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:43,560 Speaker 1: we're spending more time looking at our homes and thinking 783 00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:46,160 Speaker 1: about getting out of nature, we should really look at 784 00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:50,360 Speaker 1: what the in the relationship between those two environments actually is. 785 00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:52,640 Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you like to check out other 786 00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:55,399 Speaker 1: episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, well you can 787 00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:57,960 Speaker 1: find us wherever you get your podcast and wherever that 788 00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:00,160 Speaker 1: happens to be. Just make sure you rate your you 789 00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,640 Speaker 1: and subscribe and if you get in touch with us, 790 00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:06,120 Speaker 1: I mean clearly we'd love to hear your thoughts on 791 00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:08,680 Speaker 1: this episode. How do you relate to the content here? 792 00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:12,600 Speaker 1: How does it change or back up your own thoughts 793 00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:17,320 Speaker 1: and observations concerning your interior environment or the external world? 794 00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:20,480 Speaker 1: Hughes thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth 795 00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:22,839 Speaker 1: Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get in touch 796 00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,080 Speaker 1: with us with feedback on this episode or any other, 797 00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:27,600 Speaker 1: to suggest a topic for the future, just to say hi, 798 00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:30,520 Speaker 1: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 799 00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:40,480 Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is 800 00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:43,239 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for My 801 00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:46,320 Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or 802 00:45:46,320 --> 00:46:04,000 Speaker 1: wherever you're listening to your favorite shows proper posts, stars 803 00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:04,080 Speaker 1: b