1 00:00:02,440 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 2: As the world continues to respond to new contagious forms 3 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:16,600 Speaker 2: of empocs, many people are asking could we have done 4 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 2: more to prevent this global health emergency? 5 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 3: The world should sit back and say have we learned 6 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 3: anything from COVID? The African region acquired COVID vaccines very 7 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 3: late months later, and that meant that in many cases 8 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 3: the people had already had the infection and people then 9 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:36,199 Speaker 3: weren't very interested in having the vaccine. 10 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:38,880 Speaker 4: Now we look at empocs and we have the same. 11 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:43,159 Speaker 2: Problem and a much needed vaccination program could be delayed 12 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:46,560 Speaker 2: for children under fifteen years old, who account for more 13 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 2: than eighty percent of the deaths in the Congo, the 14 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:51,560 Speaker 2: country worst affected by the outbreak. 15 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 3: So ramp up really takes a shift in resources and capabilities. 16 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 4: We're looking at doing that. We can do that. 17 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 3: That's how we will be over to deliver the two 18 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 3: million doses, but really we really need orders before we 19 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 3: can move. 20 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 2: On this episode of the Next Africa Podcast, we'll look 21 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 2: at the response to empox and if it's really possible 22 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 2: to vaccinate a country the size of the DRC. I'm 23 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 2: Jennifer Zabasaja and this is the Next Africa Podcast, bringing 24 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 2: you one story each week from the continent driving the 25 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 2: future of global growth with the context only Bloomberg can provide. 26 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 2: Jennis Q, Bloomberg's health reporter, has been following the outbreak 27 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 2: closely and is back on the podcast with us to 28 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 2: walk us through the latest. Jennis, great to have you 29 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:43,559 Speaker 2: back on. I know it's been a busy past few weeks. 30 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:44,839 Speaker 2: How are you doing good? 31 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 4: Thank you? 32 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: Yes, it has been just a lot of developments on 33 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: the inpox friends. 34 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, which is part of the reason why we wanted 35 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 2: to get you back on. So Jennis, the last time 36 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 2: we had you on the podcast, we were talking about 37 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 2: empox being declared global health emergency, and since then we've 38 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 2: seen cases now popping up in Europe in the Middle East, 39 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,839 Speaker 2: and you and your team put together a really fascinating 40 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 2: story about how this could have potentially been prevented the 41 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 2: spread to this extent. How could this have been prevented 42 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 2: considering how fast this is moving. 43 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: Jan For decades, impox was just another neglected tropical disease 44 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 1: in Africa, and now it's become a global health emergency 45 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,519 Speaker 1: and arguably it's a public health crisis as you say 46 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: that should never have been. 47 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 4: The illness has claimed. 48 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 1: More than six one hundred and twenty two lives and 49 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: councing those are mostly in the Congo, which is the 50 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: epicent of the current crisis, and many thousands of others 51 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:45,360 Speaker 1: have been infected. Scientists and public cultificials that you say, 52 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 1: have looked at at how it could have been avoided, 53 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 1: and instead we've seen its snowball with missteps, red tape 54 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:57,119 Speaker 1: and action and all of these creating the perfect environment 55 00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: for the virus to need tait into fast breading variant. 56 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: It's now been detected in at least ten countries, two 57 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: of those outside of Africa. Some scientists have said, really 58 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: it's not a case of finger pointing per se. It's 59 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 1: probably more an example of a neglected tropical disease in Africa. 60 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: These are not diseases that typically gets a lot of 61 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 1: funding and a lot of research, but they're also not 62 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: diseases that are likely to make a lot of money 63 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 1: for vaccine makers or other therapeutic companies. We saw with 64 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: COVID how no part of the globe is isolated, and 65 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: I think that Africa. 66 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 4: And certainly through the Africa CDC. 67 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: They are highlighting that fact, and trying to possibly finally 68 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: getting the attention that they probably should have had long 69 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: ago for how these types of pathogens can spread and 70 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 1: cause a global problem. 71 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 2: Considering a lot of the missteps and the inaction that 72 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 2: you were just highlighting there, how are public health officials 73 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 2: tackling this is the vaccine, the way to move forward, 74 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 2: in the way to eradicate this from spreading any further. 75 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 4: There are a lot of plans at the moments. 76 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: In fact, I would go so for as to say 77 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: people are scrambling to make sure that they're dealing with 78 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: it as quickly as possible. That's not to say it's 79 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:28,479 Speaker 1: happening as fast as the Africa CDC initially signaled or wanted. 80 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: Certainly on the vaccine front, they are now saying that 81 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:35,479 Speaker 1: they have set a deadline for September the first for 82 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: vaccines to arrive in the Congo. It's certainly not the 83 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 1: only measure that can be taken and is being taken. 84 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: There's been a lot of conversation around getting funds to 85 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 1: ensure that there is good public health messaging on the ground. 86 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 1: They need to make sure that parents know to bring 87 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: their children in if they sing any symptoms with children. 88 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 1: Quite often it's mistaken by parents or caregivers as chicken 89 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 1: pox and that is causing delays in getting treatments Africa. 90 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 1: CDC yesterday was also highlighting how teachers are being targeted 91 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 1: in terms of public health messaging to ensure that they 92 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:22,280 Speaker 1: know what to look out for. 93 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 4: The same is true in health facilities. 94 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 1: There's a risk that you've got someone coming in presenting 95 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,720 Speaker 1: with EMPOC symptoms, but before they run any tests they 96 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 1: put into an open ward where there may be somebody 97 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 1: else battling a different disease. The vaccines are something that 98 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: will help certainly in terms of containing spread. And arguably 99 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 1: had vaccines been in Africa when the last global emergency 100 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 1: for EMPOS ended in May of twenty twenty three, we 101 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: wouldn't be in this situation now. 102 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:02,840 Speaker 2: So where the vaccines then coming from Janice, And of 103 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 2: course the million dollar question is are there going to 104 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 2: be enough to actually stop this from continuing to spread 105 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 2: in some of these places that are just so highly 106 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 2: populated across the continent. 107 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 4: The vaccines are. 108 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 1: Produced at the moment by two companies that are from 109 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 1: two different parts of the world, so but very Nordic 110 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:31,720 Speaker 1: is a Danish company in Europe and they are the 111 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 1: main commercial vaccine. 112 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 4: There is a Japanese company called Kane Biologics. 113 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: That also produces vaccine, and there are talks underway between 114 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 1: the agencies like Africa CEC and who together with Gabby 115 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 1: the Vaccine Alliance with the government of Japan that vaccine 116 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:56,039 Speaker 1: is going to be important because it has been used 117 00:06:56,040 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 1: in children before. But Very Nordic, the Danish company, they 118 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 1: have vaccine already in stock, but. 119 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 4: Very Nordic has said that the ten. 120 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: Million doses that Africa CDC has said they need that 121 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: they can actually supply all of it by the end 122 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: of next year. So they are certainly probably the first 123 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: and foremost piece of the puzzle in terms of vaccines. 124 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 2: And Jennie, stick with us because we want to talk 125 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 2: more about the impact on children, especially who based on 126 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 2: our reporting, accounts for most of the deaths, and how 127 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,119 Speaker 2: potentially children may miss out on the vaccines. So stick 128 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 2: with us and we'll talk with you after the break. 129 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 2: Welcome back. Today we're looking at how African nations are 130 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 2: responding to the empox outbreak causing concern across the world. 131 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 4: Jennis q is here. Janis. 132 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:56,119 Speaker 2: We talked about vaccines, but the draft vaccine plans haven't 133 00:07:56,160 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 2: specifically mentioned how shots will be ruled out for children. 134 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 4: You touched on this briefly, but why not? 135 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 2: Why haven't we seen this, especially considering the statistics at 136 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 2: this point in time. 137 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: I think the fact that very Nordic hasn't been specifically 138 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 1: listed for use in children may have contributed to that. 139 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: I don't think the fact that children haven't been specifically 140 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: mentioned means. 141 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 4: That they will not get vaccine. 142 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: I do think, though, that there is a likelihood that 143 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 1: there will be a delay, hopefully not a long one, 144 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 1: but a delay in getting vaccine into children. 145 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 4: This is largely. 146 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: Because the discussions with the Japanese company came by logics 147 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 1: are still underway, and my understanding at this point is 148 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: that is the vaccine that they would likely. 149 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 4: Use in children. It has been used in children in 150 00:08:58,200 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 4: Asia before. 151 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:04,199 Speaker 2: Is there con concern that that isn't the approach at 152 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 2: this point in time, Janeus, I mean that adults are 153 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 2: going to be the first one's vaccinated. 154 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:09,319 Speaker 4: Children can't for. 155 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 1: More than eighty percent of the EMPUC states in the Congo, 156 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: and so them not being first in line is a concern. 157 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: The pediatric vaccine plan is not clear at the stage, 158 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: and I would imagine that age organization and doctors and 159 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: people on the ground are not at all happy with 160 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:36,319 Speaker 1: the facts that there isn't a clear and specific plan 161 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: for children to be getting this vaccine quickly. It is 162 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: a complicated and tricky situation. Getting vaccines rolled arts is 163 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: as important as getting vaccines on the ground. 164 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 4: We saw with COVID that Africa was last. 165 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 1: In line to get vaccines and when they eventually arrived, 166 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 1: there was logistical problems with the road arts and there 167 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 1: was also a lot of hesitat and see with people 168 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: questioning whether they actually needed the vaccine. The Africa CDC 169 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: and Helen Rees who's advising she's part of an advisory 170 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: committee for the Wealth Health Organization. She spoke to Bloomberg 171 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:18,559 Speaker 1: TV recently and was saying that she does not think 172 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: that there will be a problem with hesitancy this time around, 173 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: that this is a disease that has caused a lot 174 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: of problems in various communities and specifically in the Congo region, 175 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 1: and so people will probably accept the vaccine quite readily, 176 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: which is good news. 177 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 4: I do hope that is the. 178 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 1: Case, but that doesn't take away from the fact that 179 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:48,839 Speaker 1: there are these other logistical issues in getting the vaccines 180 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 1: rolled out, in ensuring that they are safe to be 181 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 1: given to children. 182 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 2: So, in a sense, is the overall feeling that authorities 183 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:01,839 Speaker 2: are still sort of on the back foot and getting 184 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 2: a hold of what's happening right now, or people confident 185 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 2: that we're not doing a repeat of what we saw 186 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 2: during COVID and other outbreaks. 187 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:12,559 Speaker 1: I think there is growing confidence that it is not 188 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 1: going to be a repeat of COVID. 189 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 4: The World Health Organization set art a prevention. 190 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: And preparedness plan this week, and that is an effort 191 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: to ready coordinate all these efforts. I think when there 192 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: is an artbreak and there is an emergency, and it's 193 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 1: easy to panic, and it's easy for governments individually to 194 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 1: reach out to the vaccine makers and for everyone to 195 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:40,839 Speaker 1: want to make sure that they are being taken care 196 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: of or at least are taking care of their people. 197 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 1: The WHO has always provided a sort of coordination effort 198 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 1: and the EFFRICACYDC has moved in very strongly this time around, 199 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 1: made sure that they're in the driving seat, that they're 200 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: marshaling resources, and there is a lot of evidence that 201 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:06,079 Speaker 1: is happening globally We've seen responses from the United States 202 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:10,559 Speaker 1: and many others saying that they are prepared to donate 203 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: friends and in some cases vaccines themselves, because some of 204 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: these countries had stop poles of empox vaccine from the 205 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: twenty twenty two to twenty twenty three outbreak. So I 206 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 1: don't think we're going to see a repeat of COVID. 207 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 1: That being said, there are still bottlenecks and there is 208 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: a lot that scientists do not yet know about the 209 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 1: specific glade one B which appears to be a fueling 210 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: this outbreak, and. 211 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 4: They are still scrambling to get enough information. 212 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:48,440 Speaker 1: Unfortunately, we may not have been in a situation of 213 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 1: a mutated strain if Africa had these vaccines some years ago. 214 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,679 Speaker 4: It is a difficult situation, but one. 215 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: That I do think all all the agencies are responding 216 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: to as best they can. It does feel to me 217 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 1: a little bit like it was a situation of weights, wait, weights, 218 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: and then hurry up and are a little bit more 219 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: weights because they're trying to. 220 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 4: Get all the pieces of the puzzle together. 221 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 1: But do you think that there is a motivation and 222 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: focus to get that job done now? 223 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 2: Well, we know as those pieces continue to come together, 224 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:28,079 Speaker 2: you will be all over the story, but we appreciate 225 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,079 Speaker 2: you coming back onto the podcast and giving us an update. 226 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 2: Jennis Q, thanks so much for your reporting, and you 227 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 2: can read all the latest coverage on the outbreak on 228 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 2: Bloomberg News platforms. As Jenna said, this is still an 229 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 2: evolving situation and even as vaccinations commence in the DRC, 230 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 2: there are still more questions than answers about the mutated strain. Fortunately, 231 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 2: though officials do seem committed to avoiding some of the 232 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:01,199 Speaker 2: mistakes made for the continent during the COVID nineteen pandemic. 233 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 2: This program was produced by Adrian Bradley. Don't forget to 234 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 2: follow and review the show wherever you usually get your podcasts. 235 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,559 Speaker 2: I'm Jennifer's Abasaga. Thanks as always for listening.