WEBVTT - The First American Female Serial Killer (Pt 3)

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<v Speaker 1>Diversion audio. A note this episode contains mature content and

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<v Speaker 1>descriptions of violence that may be disturbing for some listeners.

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<v Speaker 1>Please take care in listening. Today's episode is the finale

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<v Speaker 1>of our three part mini series on the first American

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<v Speaker 1>female serial killer. If you miss the first two parts,

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<v Speaker 1>I highly recommend that you pause me here, listen to

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<v Speaker 1>those episodes, and then come back once you're caught up,

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<v Speaker 1>because that backstory is integral to understanding how Jane's crimes

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<v Speaker 1>got bigger, faster, and way slow. Beer. The town of

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<v Speaker 1>catam Massachusetts, didn't really like the Davis family. The davis

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<v Speaker 1>Is said they started their hospitality business because they enjoyed

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<v Speaker 1>working with strangers, and they lived on the outskirts of

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<v Speaker 1>town because they enjoyed it there. That might have been true,

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<v Speaker 1>but it wasn't the whole truth. At first, the town

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<v Speaker 1>was reluctant to get close to Alden Davis because it

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<v Speaker 1>was the eighteen seventies in Massachusetts and Alden Davis had

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<v Speaker 1>fought for the Confederacy. There's enough of an aversion already.

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<v Speaker 1>But then there was the religious sect that Alden Davis

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<v Speaker 1>was a part of. The Second Advent Church was run

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<v Speaker 1>by Charles Freeman. And not only was it a fundamentalist

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<v Speaker 1>Christian sect, the kind of which we still have to

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<v Speaker 1>be wary, but it was, as they so often are,

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<v Speaker 1>next level fundamentalist and not at all christ like. Charles

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<v Speaker 1>Freeman lived near Katomic with his wife and two young daughters,

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<v Speaker 1>four and six years old. His congregation admired him for

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<v Speaker 1>his fervent convictions, and he was always preaching about the

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<v Speaker 1>need to prove yourself through sacrifice. In April of eighteen

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<v Speaker 1>seventy nine, he told his wife that what they needed

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<v Speaker 1>to sacrifice was their four year old daughter. At two

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<v Speaker 1>o'clock in the morning of May first, eighteen seventy nine,

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<v Speaker 1>Freeman woke up and told his wife he was doing it.

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<v Speaker 1>He had been called and he would complete the sacrifice.

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<v Speaker 1>She said, if it is the Lord's will, then I

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<v Speaker 1>am ready for it, as if someone had released a

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<v Speaker 1>huge weight. Charles went out to the shed and got

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<v Speaker 1>a sharp sheath knife. He came back inside to his

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<v Speaker 1>daughter's room. His eldest daughter woke up, and he sent

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<v Speaker 1>her into the other room with his wife. Charles knelt

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<v Speaker 1>to pray by the crib of the older child. He

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<v Speaker 1>prayed that God would steal his will like he had Abrahams,

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<v Speaker 1>even though Abraham did not actually kill his child. Charles

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<v Speaker 1>prayed that she didn't wake up, but she did. She

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<v Speaker 1>woke up just as he drove the knife down into

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<v Speaker 1>her side. The next day, he invited the congregation over

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<v Speaker 1>for a long, unhinged sermon before he took them into

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<v Speaker 1>his daughter's bedroom to see her body. He claimed that

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<v Speaker 1>she would rise again in three days. The community was

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<v Speaker 1>gutted and appalled, and Charles Freeman was ultimately sent to

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<v Speaker 1>an asylum for the criminally insane. But at least one

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<v Speaker 1>of his neighbors stood by him. Alden Davis showed up

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<v Speaker 1>to the four year old's funeral and declared there never

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<v Speaker 1>lived a purer man than Charles Freeman. So everyone in

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<v Speaker 1>the town took a big self preservationist step back from

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<v Speaker 1>the Davis family. That's awful, you might think, But what

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<v Speaker 1>does this atrocity have to do with Jane Toppin? Like

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<v Speaker 1>I said, the town of Katama didn't really care for

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<v Speaker 1>the Davises. They kept them at arm's length, which I

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<v Speaker 1>think is pretty understandable. So when the Davises started dying,

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<v Speaker 1>one right after the other, and I do mean one

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<v Speaker 1>right after the other. The town kind of thought, well,

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<v Speaker 1>whatever happens to that family, happens to that family. It

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<v Speaker 1>was easy to see the demise of the Davises as

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<v Speaker 1>the hand of God delivering punishment, rather than see it

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<v Speaker 1>for what it actually was the work of an increasingly

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<v Speaker 1>reckless and sloppy serial killer. Jane toppin Welcome to the

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<v Speaker 1>Greatest True Crime Stories Ever told. I'm Mary Kay McBrayer.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm a writer of true crime, which means I live

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<v Speaker 1>inside the research wormhole. But I'm not necessarily interested in

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<v Speaker 1>the attention grabbing elements, the blood and the gore all that.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm more interested in the people behind these stories and

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<v Speaker 1>what we can learn about society by looking at their experiences.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what I explore here every week when I dig

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<v Speaker 1>into crimes where a woman is not just a victim.

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<v Speaker 1>She might be the detective, the lawyer, the witness, the coroner,

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<v Speaker 1>the criminal, or a combination of those roles. As you

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<v Speaker 1>probably already know, women can do anything. Today is the

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<v Speaker 1>last episode of our three part miniseries on the first

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<v Speaker 1>American female serial killer. It's a nineteenth century American tale

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<v Speaker 1>about how an orphan turned indentured servant bootstrapped herself into

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<v Speaker 1>a mad scientist murderer. Her story is the one I

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<v Speaker 1>spent years researching for my book America's First Female serial Killer,

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<v Speaker 1>Jane Toppin and the Making of a Monster, so I'm

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<v Speaker 1>excited to share it with you. In the finale of

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<v Speaker 1>this miniseries, Jane's crimes reached new levels of depravity and

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<v Speaker 1>recklessness before the law finally catches on. I also have

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<v Speaker 1>a conversation with Harold Scheckter, who wrote his own excellent

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<v Speaker 1>book on Jane Tappin, so stay tuned for that all

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<v Speaker 1>after the break. So this is our third of three

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<v Speaker 1>episodes about Jane Tappin. We did a deep dive into

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<v Speaker 1>her early years and now we're moving into her most

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<v Speaker 1>criminal period, right, Yeah, it gets more criminal. And the

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<v Speaker 1>interesting thing here that I want to point out is

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<v Speaker 1>that when I've told this story before at parties or whatever,

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<v Speaker 1>there's a point where people get her. I don't know

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<v Speaker 1>if I'm just telling the story in a way that

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<v Speaker 1>makes her a sympathetic character or what, but right around

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<v Speaker 1>the point where her favorite patients leave the hospital without

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<v Speaker 1>saying goodbye, that's when most people are like, yeah, I

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<v Speaker 1>could see how she would kill someone. They're not excusing

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<v Speaker 1>it by any stretch, but they get it, if that

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<v Speaker 1>makes sense. The typical refrain goes something like, if all

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<v Speaker 1>that shit happened to me, I'd kill someone too, except

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<v Speaker 1>for they didn't hurt people. May hurt people, but plenty

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<v Speaker 1>of folks had an upbringing as bad as or worse

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<v Speaker 1>than Jane, and they didn't murder thirty people. So what

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know that really is the question is it

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<v Speaker 1>situational or was it in her all along ye old

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<v Speaker 1>nature versus nurture debate, The answer is both, of course

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<v Speaker 1>and neither, And there's no one right answer, because really

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<v Speaker 1>there's no answer at all. But because it's the question,

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<v Speaker 1>we can't stop trying to answer it. Last episode, we

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<v Speaker 1>found Jane at the bedside of Elizabeth Brigham, her foster sister.

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<v Speaker 1>Jane spent the summers recuperating from her round the clock

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<v Speaker 1>freelance work as a private nurse, and she had invited

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<v Speaker 1>Elizabeth out to the seaside where she slipped her in

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<v Speaker 1>overdose of morphia mixed into mineral water, sent her into

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<v Speaker 1>a coma, and killed her. After that, Jane kept killing

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<v Speaker 1>her private nursing patients until June of nineteen oh one,

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<v Speaker 1>when Mattie Davis, wife of Alden Davis, arrived in Boston

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<v Speaker 1>to collect Jane debt. Jane tortured her for seven days

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<v Speaker 1>before finally administering the fatal dose of morphine that killed Mattie.

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<v Speaker 1>By then, Jane had decided to kill the whole Davis

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<v Speaker 1>family and burn their house to the ground. It wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>long after Mattie's funeral that her daughters, Genevieve Gordon and

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<v Speaker 1>Minnie Gibbs, invited Jane to move into the Jakin house

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<v Speaker 1>to help care for their father, who was always in

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<v Speaker 1>erratic personality, and keep the house. Jane was so fun

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<v Speaker 1>to be around that they thought she was sure to

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<v Speaker 1>lift their spirits. Genevieve hadn't seen her mother in a year,

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<v Speaker 1>so her mother's collapse and fairly sudden death afterward struck

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<v Speaker 1>her especially hard. That sadness was what Jane said made

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<v Speaker 1>her think Genevieve was better off dead. She would be

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<v Speaker 1>first on the list. But before that, Jane had to

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<v Speaker 1>start a few fires. It was a new experiment for her,

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<v Speaker 1>and you probably remember how she liked to experiment. They'd

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<v Speaker 1>only been settled in the house for a few days before,

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<v Speaker 1>the father, Alden, who'd suffered insomnia since his wife's death,

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<v Speaker 1>smelled smoke in the middle of the night. He yelled

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<v Speaker 1>for Jane to help him extinguish the flames, and she

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<v Speaker 1>came running from her room, looking as if she just

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<v Speaker 1>woke up. Together, they successfully put out the fire, and

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<v Speaker 1>then it happened twice more with the same results. It

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<v Speaker 1>seems like people should have grown suspicious, but the only

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<v Speaker 1>people who would have thought to do that, the Davis family,

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<v Speaker 1>were suffering with grief far too much to question Jane

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<v Speaker 1>when she claimed to have seen a stranger skulking about

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<v Speaker 1>the property and that stranger was probably the firebug trying

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<v Speaker 1>to burn the house down, everyone just went with it,

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<v Speaker 1>and then they started dying. Jane pulled one of the daughters, Minnie,

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<v Speaker 1>aside one afternoon and told her that the other day

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<v Speaker 1>she saw Minnie's sister, Genevieve in the garden shed eyeing

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<v Speaker 1>a box of Paris green rat poison. Jane intimated that

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<v Speaker 1>they should probably keep a close watch on Genevieve given

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<v Speaker 1>her recent depression. Within a few days, on July twenty sixth,

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen oh one, Genevieve started to vomit violently after dinner.

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<v Speaker 1>She threw up until her throat was raw, and when

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<v Speaker 1>she came out of the bathroom Jane was waiting for

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<v Speaker 1>her with a glass of mineral water. Genevieve was dead

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<v Speaker 1>by morning. The physician listed her cause of death as

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<v Speaker 1>heart failure. The neighbors said Genevieve died of grief. Jane

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<v Speaker 1>told Genevieve's surviving sister and father that she died by suicide.

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<v Speaker 1>She said that she'd found the syringe that she'd used

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<v Speaker 1>to inject herself with rat poison, but to spare their feelings,

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<v Speaker 1>she threw it in the outhouse. Genevieve was interred next

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<v Speaker 1>to her mother. Only a few weeks later, it was

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<v Speaker 1>Alden Davis's turn. During a heat wave of nineteen oh one,

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<v Speaker 1>he came home from a trip to Boston and all

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<v Speaker 1>but collapsed on the sofa from exhaustion. Jane fussed over

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<v Speaker 1>him for a few minutes, and then she came back

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<v Speaker 1>with a glass of Hunati mineral water. The next morning,

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<v Speaker 1>Minnie Gibbs, the surviving elder daughter of Mattie and Alden,

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<v Speaker 1>came over to see her parents with her two young children.

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<v Speaker 1>They lived in walking distance of Alden's house, which was

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<v Speaker 1>nice when Minnie's husband, Irving, a sea captain, was away

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<v Speaker 1>for months at a time. Harry Gordon, Genevieve's widower, was

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<v Speaker 1>also there with their daughter. The family gathered around the

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<v Speaker 1>breakfast table with Jane, but Davis didn't come down to

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<v Speaker 1>join them. Harry sent his little girl upstairs to wake

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<v Speaker 1>up her grandpa, but when she scampered back downstairs a

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<v Speaker 1>few minutes later, she said Alden wouldn't wake up. The

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<v Speaker 1>family called the doctor. The doctor took one look at

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<v Speaker 1>Alden and knew he was looking at a corpse. He

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<v Speaker 1>thought maybe his heart had given out, but after further examination,

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<v Speaker 1>he listed the cause of death as a cerebral hemorrhage.

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<v Speaker 1>Alden was the third body to be interred in the

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<v Speaker 1>family plot in two months, but Jane wasn't finished. Just

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<v Speaker 1>four days after Alden's funeral, on August twelfth, the remaining

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<v Speaker 1>family members all went on a joy ride around town.

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<v Speaker 1>Before they left, Jane urged Minnie to have a little

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<v Speaker 1>cocoa wine to soothe her nerves. It sounds gross, and

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<v Speaker 1>I can only imagine it tasted worse. After Jane dissolved

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<v Speaker 1>a tablet of morphia in it. Minnie didn't drink alcohol,

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<v Speaker 1>but she gave in to the nurse. Jane was, after all,

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<v Speaker 1>their professional, and she started feeling bad immediately. By the

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<v Speaker 1>time they got home that afternoon, she couldn't get up

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<v Speaker 1>the stairs. Jane brought her a glass of mineral water

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<v Speaker 1>into which she had already, of course, dissolved, a tablet

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<v Speaker 1>of morphine and a tablet of atropine. Around midnight, Jane

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<v Speaker 1>injected Minnie with another dose of morphine, which rendered her

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<v Speaker 1>completely still except for a twist leg. Normally, Jane would

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<v Speaker 1>pull back the covers and slide into bed alongside her victim,

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<v Speaker 1>but this time she did something that was arguably worse.

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<v Speaker 1>Jane had been feeding many lethal medications over the course

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<v Speaker 1>of the day, but this time, instead of getting in

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<v Speaker 1>her victim's deathbed to experience the pain the way she enjoyed, Instead,

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<v Speaker 1>Jane brought Minnie's ten year old son, Jesse, into her bed,

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<v Speaker 1>and she cuddled him while his mother died downstairs. Jane

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<v Speaker 1>had never seemed very concerned about getting caught for her crimes.

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<v Speaker 1>The atropine helped mask her use of morphine, but that's

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<v Speaker 1>about the only precaution She took to hide her behavior. Still,

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<v Speaker 1>murdering four members of the same family in less than

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<v Speaker 1>three months was absurdly blatant, even for her. The local

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<v Speaker 1>newspaper covered the events with the dramatic headline entire family

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<v Speaker 1>wiped out. Oddly, the paper never once mentioned foul play,

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<v Speaker 1>but the hackles of the Davis clan were finally starting

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<v Speaker 1>to rise. Captain Paul Gibbs, Minnie Gibbs father in law,

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<v Speaker 1>remembered Jane administering some drug to many while she rested.

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<v Speaker 1>He told his son Irving about it when Irving arrived

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<v Speaker 1>home from SA Maybe that's why Irving declined when Jane

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<v Speaker 1>offered to move in and take care of him. Jane

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<v Speaker 1>just turned her attentions elsewhere. She was done with the

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<v Speaker 1>Davis clan for now, but her time enacting this intimate

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<v Speaker 1>familial revenge may have inspired her. Because she actually went

0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:31.440
<v Speaker 1>back to Lowell, back to the house where she'd grown

0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:37.080
<v Speaker 1>up and where Oramel Brigham still lived. She wasn't there

0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:41.080
<v Speaker 1>to kill for once. She was there to betray in

0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:48.280
<v Speaker 1>another way, to marry her foster sister's husband. You might

0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:53.639
<v Speaker 1>remember Oramel as the faithful, beloved widower of Jane's foster sister, Elizabeth,

0:20:54.960 --> 0:20:57.760
<v Speaker 1>and while he seems to have been a totally devoted

0:20:57.840 --> 0:21:01.919
<v Speaker 1>husband to Elizabeth, he wasn't you'd call a romantic figure.

0:21:03.119 --> 0:21:06.240
<v Speaker 1>Harold Scheckter says in his book Fatal that Romel was

0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:10.520
<v Speaker 1>a portly gentleman of advanced middle age, with a double chin,

0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:16.680
<v Speaker 1>bald dome, and bushy gray mutton chop whiskers. It didn't

0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:19.520
<v Speaker 1>matter what he looked like. When she arrived at his

0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:23.879
<v Speaker 1>house on August twenty fourth, nineteen oh one, Jane thought

0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:27.400
<v Speaker 1>she'd have Ormel all to herself because back in January,

0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:31.000
<v Speaker 1>the winter before she killed the Davises, Jane had actually

0:21:31.000 --> 0:21:35.920
<v Speaker 1>poisoned Ormel's longtime housekeeper. She thought the housekeeper was her

0:21:35.920 --> 0:21:41.439
<v Speaker 1>competition for his affection. Instead of being met by a

0:21:41.480 --> 0:21:45.000
<v Speaker 1>new housekeeper, Jane was met at the door by Ormel's

0:21:45.000 --> 0:21:48.359
<v Speaker 1>elder sister, who had come to visit on her way

0:21:48.400 --> 0:21:54.119
<v Speaker 1>to the Pan American Exposition in Buffalo. Jane poisoned and

0:21:54.240 --> 0:21:58.680
<v Speaker 1>killed her four days after arriving. She didn't want eyes

0:21:58.720 --> 0:22:01.000
<v Speaker 1>on her while she tried to the widower of her

0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:08.720
<v Speaker 1>foster sister that she'd murdered. She did have eyes on her, though,

0:22:21.640 --> 0:22:25.400
<v Speaker 1>Right after many Davis was buried after the entire nuclear

0:22:25.480 --> 0:22:29.680
<v Speaker 1>Davis family had died in close succession. It wasn't just

0:22:29.800 --> 0:22:33.080
<v Speaker 1>the Davis's relatives that started to view Jane with suspicion.

0:22:34.720 --> 0:22:42.080
<v Speaker 1>She also finally caught the state authority's eyes. This may

0:22:42.119 --> 0:22:46.480
<v Speaker 1>explain why, despite the blatant natures of the crime, the

0:22:46.520 --> 0:22:53.280
<v Speaker 1>papers never mentioned the possibility of foul play. Authorities may

0:22:53.320 --> 0:22:57.440
<v Speaker 1>have asked them to keep those suspicions quiet to avoid

0:22:57.480 --> 0:23:05.000
<v Speaker 1>alerting Jane that she was under scrutiny. State Detective John S.

0:23:05.080 --> 0:23:10.399
<v Speaker 1>Patterson was assigned to watch her. He tailed her around

0:23:10.440 --> 0:23:14.040
<v Speaker 1>Buzzard's Bay. He was on the train with her when

0:23:14.040 --> 0:23:17.439
<v Speaker 1>she moved back to Lowell, and when Jane arrived to

0:23:17.480 --> 0:23:23.240
<v Speaker 1>stay with Oramel Brigham, Detective Patterson booked lodging down the street.

0:23:25.560 --> 0:23:29.760
<v Speaker 1>He didn't move fast enough, though. When Jane realized that

0:23:29.960 --> 0:23:32.919
<v Speaker 1>Ormel didn't intend to marry her or keep her on

0:23:33.119 --> 0:23:37.480
<v Speaker 1>in any permanent capacity, she decided to try a few

0:23:37.520 --> 0:23:42.640
<v Speaker 1>tricks to change his mind. First, she laced his tea

0:23:42.680 --> 0:23:47.080
<v Speaker 1>with morphia. She thought that the sudden onset of illness

0:23:47.160 --> 0:23:51.760
<v Speaker 1>might convince him that he needed her. When it didn't work,

0:23:52.440 --> 0:23:55.320
<v Speaker 1>she told his friends she was pregnant with his child

0:23:57.359 --> 0:24:02.399
<v Speaker 1>that had the opposite of the en tended effect. Ormel

0:24:02.600 --> 0:24:06.600
<v Speaker 1>ordered her out of his house that very moment. She

0:24:06.680 --> 0:24:11.600
<v Speaker 1>didn't go. Instead, she sulked up to her room as

0:24:11.680 --> 0:24:15.800
<v Speaker 1>if to pack, and she took an overdose of morphine herself.

0:24:18.680 --> 0:24:22.720
<v Speaker 1>By this time, though Ormel had wised up. He went

0:24:22.800 --> 0:24:26.040
<v Speaker 1>upstairs to make sure she was packing, and he found

0:24:26.040 --> 0:24:30.360
<v Speaker 1>her unconscious. He called the doctor right away, who made

0:24:30.400 --> 0:24:35.919
<v Speaker 1>her vomit and revived her. Ormel didn't have the sympathetic

0:24:36.000 --> 0:24:40.879
<v Speaker 1>reaction she was trying to induce in him. He assigned

0:24:40.880 --> 0:24:44.880
<v Speaker 1>her an in home nurse to watch her, but when

0:24:44.920 --> 0:24:51.720
<v Speaker 1>that nurse went to prepare her lunch, Jane poisoned herself again. Again,

0:24:52.240 --> 0:24:57.960
<v Speaker 1>her attempt was foiled. The doctor injected applemorphine into Jane

0:24:58.240 --> 0:25:02.720
<v Speaker 1>and made her vomit again. When she revived again, the

0:25:02.800 --> 0:25:09.320
<v Speaker 1>doctor asked her why she was doing this. She answered,

0:25:10.359 --> 0:25:14.119
<v Speaker 1>I'm tired of life. I know people are talking about me.

0:25:14.920 --> 0:25:19.960
<v Speaker 1>I just want to die. I just have to tell y'all. No,

0:25:20.119 --> 0:25:23.840
<v Speaker 1>she didn't. She didn't want to die. She wanted pity

0:25:24.160 --> 0:25:28.320
<v Speaker 1>so she could continue on her rampage. Although to be honest,

0:25:28.520 --> 0:25:30.880
<v Speaker 1>I'm not even sure that that was a conscious thought

0:25:30.920 --> 0:25:34.879
<v Speaker 1>by that time. It's hard to trace the leaps and cognition.

0:25:36.160 --> 0:25:39.120
<v Speaker 1>At first, Jane didn't want her favorite patients to leave,

0:25:39.240 --> 0:25:43.240
<v Speaker 1>so she made them sicker. Then she started experimenting with

0:25:43.359 --> 0:25:47.800
<v Speaker 1>counteractive medicines. Then she'd try to push them all the

0:25:47.840 --> 0:25:49.919
<v Speaker 1>way to the brink of death and see if she

0:25:49.920 --> 0:25:53.040
<v Speaker 1>could bring them back. I'm thinking this is where the

0:25:53.160 --> 0:25:57.880
<v Speaker 1>power complex escalated big time. But that's also when her

0:25:57.920 --> 0:26:01.520
<v Speaker 1>crimes turned sexual. That's when she would get in bed

0:26:01.560 --> 0:26:06.960
<v Speaker 1>with her patients while observing the overdos's effects, and then

0:26:07.000 --> 0:26:11.639
<v Speaker 1>she graduated to killing by poisoning. Her train had so

0:26:11.880 --> 0:26:15.720
<v Speaker 1>clearly jumped the tracks that her thought processes here get

0:26:15.800 --> 0:26:20.120
<v Speaker 1>more and more difficult to follow. Maybe by this time

0:26:20.160 --> 0:26:24.000
<v Speaker 1>she knew the detectives were onto her, but probably not.

0:26:25.080 --> 0:26:28.600
<v Speaker 1>She'd gotten away was so much for so long she

0:26:28.720 --> 0:26:31.240
<v Speaker 1>probably didn't realize that. When she was admitted to the

0:26:31.280 --> 0:26:36.199
<v Speaker 1>hospital right after her attempts at suicide, the patient just

0:26:36.280 --> 0:27:02.120
<v Speaker 1>down the hall was Detective John Patterson. When the hospital

0:27:02.160 --> 0:27:05.520
<v Speaker 1>discharged Jane, she went to live with a couple of

0:27:05.560 --> 0:27:12.760
<v Speaker 1>friends in Amherst, New Hampshire, and yes, Detective John Patterson

0:27:13.240 --> 0:27:19.240
<v Speaker 1>was still following her. In fact, he was again lodging

0:27:19.359 --> 0:27:23.080
<v Speaker 1>just down the street when three other police officers showed

0:27:23.160 --> 0:27:26.960
<v Speaker 1>up at his door on October twenty ninth, nineteen oh

0:27:27.080 --> 0:27:32.320
<v Speaker 1>one with good news. After Minnie Gibbs was buried, one

0:27:32.359 --> 0:27:37.879
<v Speaker 1>detective approached Minnie's father in law, Captain Paul Gibbs. I

0:27:37.960 --> 0:27:39.639
<v Speaker 1>just have to tell y'all right quick that in my

0:27:39.760 --> 0:27:44.000
<v Speaker 1>narrative nonfiction book about this case, I associated that character

0:27:44.080 --> 0:27:48.560
<v Speaker 1>with my late grandfather, who suffered no fools. He is

0:27:48.720 --> 0:27:54.320
<v Speaker 1>by far my favorite person in this story. After getting

0:27:54.359 --> 0:27:58.440
<v Speaker 1>permission from Minnie's widower, Irving, which I can only imagine

0:27:58.600 --> 0:28:03.400
<v Speaker 1>that his father Paul urged him to give, officials had

0:28:03.520 --> 0:28:09.680
<v Speaker 1>exhumed all four of the Davis' bodies, many gives viscera

0:28:10.200 --> 0:28:16.840
<v Speaker 1>had turned up lethal traces of poison arsenic. This is

0:28:16.880 --> 0:28:20.440
<v Speaker 1>what Detective Patterson needed to move in on his suspect.

0:28:20.840 --> 0:28:28.639
<v Speaker 1>On October thirtieth, nineteen oh one. Jane's arrest made headlines

0:28:28.680 --> 0:28:35.239
<v Speaker 1>the following day on Halloween. People everywhere were stunned that

0:28:35.359 --> 0:28:40.480
<v Speaker 1>someone could brutally murder an entire family. They were even

0:28:40.640 --> 0:28:44.600
<v Speaker 1>more shocked that she was a nurse and a woman.

0:28:47.040 --> 0:28:50.680
<v Speaker 1>But the readers who were most surprised of all were

0:28:50.720 --> 0:28:55.840
<v Speaker 1>the people who knew Jane. They couldn't believe it. They

0:28:55.920 --> 0:28:59.680
<v Speaker 1>didn't believe it, and they later wrote to her in

0:28:59.760 --> 0:29:08.400
<v Speaker 1>Jai telling her so. Jane, though, wasn't really surprised. She

0:29:08.560 --> 0:29:12.080
<v Speaker 1>was too smart not to anticipate that her increasingly blatant

0:29:12.160 --> 0:29:17.240
<v Speaker 1>crimes would call attention. She'd just gotten too far down

0:29:17.280 --> 0:29:21.400
<v Speaker 1>the path of depravity to stop herself, and now her

0:29:21.440 --> 0:29:26.080
<v Speaker 1>most salient emotion was she was irritated that the detective

0:29:26.160 --> 0:29:32.160
<v Speaker 1>stood in the room while she packed. At first, she

0:29:32.360 --> 0:29:35.640
<v Speaker 1>was only charged with the murder of Many Gibbs. I'm

0:29:35.680 --> 0:29:38.200
<v Speaker 1>not sure why, but I'm assuming they only tried her

0:29:38.320 --> 0:29:41.040
<v Speaker 1>for the one because they had the most evidence there,

0:29:41.440 --> 0:29:44.200
<v Speaker 1>and because if that case failed, they had more crimes

0:29:44.200 --> 0:29:48.120
<v Speaker 1>to try her on. Later, at the jailhouse, she learned

0:29:48.160 --> 0:29:54.640
<v Speaker 1>that her childhood friend James Murphy would defend her pro bona.

0:29:55.040 --> 0:29:59.160
<v Speaker 1>Murphy was especially thrilled when he realized that the poison

0:29:59.240 --> 0:30:05.160
<v Speaker 1>found in Mean Gibbs was arsenic. Arsenic, you might recall

0:30:05.200 --> 0:30:08.560
<v Speaker 1>from other stories we've covered on this show, was a

0:30:08.640 --> 0:30:15.959
<v Speaker 1>key ingredient in embalming fluid in this era. For exactly

0:30:16.320 --> 0:30:21.880
<v Speaker 1>that reason, even Captain Paul Gibbs, who believed Jane committed

0:30:21.880 --> 0:30:26.560
<v Speaker 1>the crimes, was surprised when he heard the investigators were

0:30:26.600 --> 0:30:31.200
<v Speaker 1>relying on the presence of arsenic to pin her. The

0:30:31.320 --> 0:30:37.240
<v Speaker 1>old Salt said as much in this quote. I suspected

0:30:37.240 --> 0:30:40.800
<v Speaker 1>they had been poisoned, but I didn't think Jenny Toppin

0:30:41.000 --> 0:30:47.600
<v Speaker 1>would use anything as easily detected as arsenic. He went

0:30:47.640 --> 0:30:51.240
<v Speaker 1>on to put the professionals even mortishamee. He thought that

0:30:51.360 --> 0:30:55.720
<v Speaker 1>Davis's quote had been killed by morphia and a tropia.

0:30:56.440 --> 0:30:59.800
<v Speaker 1>A tropia expanded the pupils of the eyes, whereas more

0:31:00.320 --> 0:31:03.200
<v Speaker 1>contracted them, so that if a person had been killed

0:31:03.200 --> 0:31:06.280
<v Speaker 1>by those poisons, the pupils of their eyes would practically

0:31:06.360 --> 0:31:09.280
<v Speaker 1>be in their normal state, and to detect the traces

0:31:09.320 --> 0:31:15.320
<v Speaker 1>of the poison would be very difficult. Officials thought that

0:31:15.520 --> 0:31:19.000
<v Speaker 1>was a good idea, so they tested the bodies for

0:31:19.080 --> 0:31:25.160
<v Speaker 1>those and their findings were positive. No one ever found

0:31:25.200 --> 0:31:30.280
<v Speaker 1>out how Captain Paul Gibbs, the retired fishing boat captain,

0:31:30.840 --> 0:31:37.560
<v Speaker 1>worked it out, but he did. Still, Jane received letters

0:31:37.560 --> 0:31:41.280
<v Speaker 1>of support and gifts from her friends and former patients

0:31:41.280 --> 0:31:46.040
<v Speaker 1>at the jailhouse, where she had what she called a

0:31:46.120 --> 0:31:53.200
<v Speaker 1>nice rest, and at first she pled not guilty until

0:31:53.600 --> 0:32:16.040
<v Speaker 1>abruptly she about faced and confessed. I couldn't find a

0:32:16.080 --> 0:32:20.320
<v Speaker 1>clear reason behind this shift. That's one reason why I

0:32:20.360 --> 0:32:24.200
<v Speaker 1>have a hard time fully accepting the confession that William

0:32:24.280 --> 0:32:29.440
<v Speaker 1>Randolph Hurst published in one of his newspapers. I'm just

0:32:29.480 --> 0:32:32.640
<v Speaker 1>not sure how it came to be, if you paid her,

0:32:33.120 --> 0:32:36.200
<v Speaker 1>if she even wrote it. So I just don't really

0:32:36.200 --> 0:32:41.360
<v Speaker 1>trust it. But rest assured that whole confession question is

0:32:41.440 --> 0:32:45.080
<v Speaker 1>definitely something I'll get Harold Scheckter's take on when I

0:32:45.120 --> 0:32:50.520
<v Speaker 1>interview him. Regardless of the details behind that Hurst confession, though,

0:32:51.400 --> 0:32:55.920
<v Speaker 1>Jane definitely did change her plea to guilty, and she

0:32:56.040 --> 0:33:03.560
<v Speaker 1>started talking from what she said. By this point, Jane

0:33:03.680 --> 0:33:09.760
<v Speaker 1>had lost count of her victims. She recounted it all

0:33:10.000 --> 0:33:14.920
<v Speaker 1>with full calm and composure to Henry R. Steadman at

0:33:14.960 --> 0:33:22.960
<v Speaker 1>the American Medico Psychological Association. The article is long, but

0:33:23.040 --> 0:33:25.160
<v Speaker 1>I think it's important to read to you, at least

0:33:25.320 --> 0:33:41.000
<v Speaker 1>this part of it. When I try to picture it,

0:33:41.480 --> 0:33:46.000
<v Speaker 1>I say to myself, I have poisoned Manny Gibbs, my

0:33:46.120 --> 0:33:51.200
<v Speaker 1>dear friend. I have poisoned mister Davis and missus Davis.

0:33:52.040 --> 0:33:56.360
<v Speaker 1>This does not convey anything to me and when I

0:33:56.360 --> 0:34:00.239
<v Speaker 1>try to sense the condition of the children and all

0:34:00.240 --> 0:34:06.000
<v Speaker 1>the consequences, I cannot realize what an awful thing it is.

0:34:08.000 --> 0:34:12.680
<v Speaker 1>Why don't I feel sorry and grieve over it? I

0:34:12.719 --> 0:34:16.759
<v Speaker 1>cannot make sense of it all. Something comes over me.

0:34:18.239 --> 0:34:21.879
<v Speaker 1>I don't know what it is. I seem to have

0:34:21.920 --> 0:34:27.080
<v Speaker 1>a sort of paralysis of thought and reason. I have

0:34:27.200 --> 0:34:33.120
<v Speaker 1>an uncontrollable desire to give poison without regard to consequence.

0:34:35.040 --> 0:34:38.840
<v Speaker 1>I have no objection against telling my feelings, but I

0:34:38.880 --> 0:34:42.880
<v Speaker 1>don't know my own mind. I don't know why I

0:34:42.960 --> 0:34:54.640
<v Speaker 1>do these things. Later in court, she wondered how they

0:34:54.680 --> 0:35:00.440
<v Speaker 1>could possibly find her insane. She could not possible be

0:35:00.480 --> 0:35:05.200
<v Speaker 1>insane when she knew full well that she was doing wrong,

0:35:06.160 --> 0:35:10.920
<v Speaker 1>and she went to great links to avoid being caught.

0:35:26.480 --> 0:35:29.360
<v Speaker 1>So when the court ruled her not guilty by reason

0:35:29.400 --> 0:35:33.640
<v Speaker 1>of insanity, Jane thought for sure that the court would

0:35:33.640 --> 0:35:41.240
<v Speaker 1>eventually overturn the sentencing, but they didn't. The court ruled

0:35:41.280 --> 0:35:47.400
<v Speaker 1>that quote her disease being constitutional, she will never recover,

0:35:50.200 --> 0:35:53.799
<v Speaker 1>and then she was committed to Taunton Asylum, where she

0:35:53.880 --> 0:35:59.239
<v Speaker 1>stayed for the remainder of her life. She died August seventeenth,

0:36:00.120 --> 0:36:09.360
<v Speaker 1>nineteen thirty eight. By then she was eighty four. My

0:36:09.400 --> 0:36:12.799
<v Speaker 1>godfather actually gave me a copy of her obituary as

0:36:12.800 --> 0:36:18.160
<v Speaker 1>a book release gift. The obituary refers to her as

0:36:18.200 --> 0:36:22.120
<v Speaker 1>a mass poisoner. It says she gave the names of

0:36:22.200 --> 0:36:27.439
<v Speaker 1>thirty one victims, but that she quote killed at least

0:36:27.480 --> 0:36:30.040
<v Speaker 1>one hundred from the time I became a nurse at

0:36:30.120 --> 0:36:34.080
<v Speaker 1>Boston Hospital, where I killed the first one, until I

0:36:34.160 --> 0:36:39.400
<v Speaker 1>ended the lives of the Davis family. The obit also

0:36:39.520 --> 0:36:43.720
<v Speaker 1>says she died at the asylum as just another quiet

0:36:43.760 --> 0:36:49.400
<v Speaker 1>old lady. But that's not what the nurses on her

0:36:49.440 --> 0:36:54.839
<v Speaker 1>ward said. They said from time to time Jane would

0:36:54.880 --> 0:36:59.319
<v Speaker 1>beckon them over and tell them to get the morphine

0:36:59.480 --> 0:37:03.080
<v Speaker 1>she would just share to her other patients and say,

0:37:03.200 --> 0:37:05.760
<v Speaker 1>you and I will have a lot of fun seeing

0:37:05.800 --> 0:37:29.760
<v Speaker 1>them die. And now, dear listeners, I am super pumped

0:37:30.280 --> 0:37:32.799
<v Speaker 1>to share with you the conversation I got to have

0:37:32.880 --> 0:37:37.360
<v Speaker 1>with Harold Scheckter. He not only wrote his own heavily

0:37:37.400 --> 0:37:41.840
<v Speaker 1>research book, Fatal, about Jane, but he's also written about

0:37:42.000 --> 0:37:47.680
<v Speaker 1>Ed Gain and Albert Fish. You definitely definitely know who

0:37:47.719 --> 0:37:50.560
<v Speaker 1>he is, even if you don't know you know who

0:37:50.560 --> 0:37:54.319
<v Speaker 1>he is. He's written many true crime books, and he's

0:37:54.800 --> 0:37:59.839
<v Speaker 1>very frequently the expert interview in true crime documentaries and

0:38:00.040 --> 0:38:05.120
<v Speaker 1>shows like America's Most Wanted. He is in short, amazing,

0:38:05.480 --> 0:38:28.799
<v Speaker 1>and he's here. That's after the break, Harold. I'm so

0:38:28.840 --> 0:38:31.359
<v Speaker 1>excited to talk to you today. Thank you so much

0:38:31.400 --> 0:38:34.200
<v Speaker 1>for coming on and talk to us about Jane. My

0:38:34.239 --> 0:38:36.360
<v Speaker 1>first question is like, where'd you get your start? Like

0:38:36.400 --> 0:38:37.080
<v Speaker 1>how'd you do it?

0:38:37.440 --> 0:38:42.200
<v Speaker 2>My day job for forty two years until my relatively

0:38:42.280 --> 0:38:47.000
<v Speaker 2>recent retirement was as a professor of American literature. At

0:38:47.080 --> 0:38:51.680
<v Speaker 2>some point I decided that I needed to supplement my

0:38:51.840 --> 0:38:56.640
<v Speaker 2>meager academic salary somehow, so I decided to try to

0:38:56.640 --> 0:38:59.640
<v Speaker 2>write commercial books. And I was basically writing books at

0:38:59.640 --> 0:39:02.279
<v Speaker 2>that time about whatever interested me at the moment, and

0:39:02.360 --> 0:39:06.879
<v Speaker 2>I was writing a book about movie special effects when

0:39:06.920 --> 0:39:11.560
<v Speaker 2>I came across the fact previously unknown to me that

0:39:11.800 --> 0:39:15.040
<v Speaker 2>both Psycho and Texas Chainsaw Massacre, which are my two

0:39:15.040 --> 0:39:19.120
<v Speaker 2>favorite horror movies, had been inspired by the same true

0:39:19.160 --> 0:39:22.719
<v Speaker 2>life case, that of ed Geen. So I pitched that

0:39:22.760 --> 0:39:26.800
<v Speaker 2>idea to my editor. She bought it. I did that book, Deviant.

0:39:27.760 --> 0:39:31.400
<v Speaker 2>So when I was actually researching Deviant, I was in

0:39:31.480 --> 0:39:35.360
<v Speaker 2>touch with Robert Block. Robert Block wrote the novel Psycho

0:39:36.040 --> 0:39:39.240
<v Speaker 2>that the movie was based on, and I said to Block,

0:39:39.560 --> 0:39:41.640
<v Speaker 2>why do you think people are so fascinated with ed

0:39:41.680 --> 0:39:45.680
<v Speaker 2>Gean And he said, because they've forgotten about Albert Fish.

0:39:45.760 --> 0:39:49.400
<v Speaker 2>So that led me to do my second book on

0:39:49.440 --> 0:39:53.719
<v Speaker 2>Albert Fish anyway before I knew it, much to my surprise,

0:39:54.120 --> 0:39:56.760
<v Speaker 2>because it wasn't the career path I had foreseen for myself.

0:39:57.360 --> 0:40:01.320
<v Speaker 2>I had become a true crime ime writer when I started.

0:40:02.320 --> 0:40:07.520
<v Speaker 2>The serial murder thing hadn't really become this big phenomenon

0:40:07.920 --> 0:40:10.279
<v Speaker 2>the way it did in the eighties and nineties. In fact,

0:40:10.280 --> 0:40:13.520
<v Speaker 2>the word serial murder I don't think appears anywhere in

0:40:13.600 --> 0:40:16.640
<v Speaker 2>My Green Book or my Fish Book because it was

0:40:16.719 --> 0:40:19.800
<v Speaker 2>coined much earlier, but it really didn't enter the language

0:40:20.320 --> 0:40:24.480
<v Speaker 2>in the nineteen eighties. When I first started doing it,

0:40:24.680 --> 0:40:26.560
<v Speaker 2>I didn't even think of it as true crime. I

0:40:26.560 --> 0:40:29.560
<v Speaker 2>thought I was inventing a new genre called true horror,

0:40:30.200 --> 0:40:35.920
<v Speaker 2>that I was writing stories about those rare American criminals

0:40:36.480 --> 0:40:42.160
<v Speaker 2>who were really monsters and who had entered into somehow

0:40:42.280 --> 0:40:47.319
<v Speaker 2>the cultural consciousness is these monsters. In my life as

0:40:47.440 --> 0:40:51.160
<v Speaker 2>an academic and a literary critic, One of my mentors

0:40:51.200 --> 0:40:56.719
<v Speaker 2>said that one characteristic of a genuinely mythic character in

0:40:56.800 --> 0:41:01.959
<v Speaker 2>literature is that everybody knows the character, but relatively few

0:41:02.000 --> 0:41:05.120
<v Speaker 2>people can tell you who created him. So when I

0:41:05.160 --> 0:41:08.520
<v Speaker 2>was teaching, I would say, you know, to my class, well,

0:41:08.520 --> 0:41:11.600
<v Speaker 2>how many people have heard of Sherlock Holmes? And everybody

0:41:11.680 --> 0:41:13.759
<v Speaker 2>raised their hands, and then they'd say, how many of

0:41:13.800 --> 0:41:16.360
<v Speaker 2>you know who created Sherlock Holms?

0:41:16.680 --> 0:41:16.799
<v Speaker 1>Right?

0:41:17.080 --> 0:41:18.560
<v Speaker 2>And you know, the same thing is true, have had

0:41:18.560 --> 0:41:22.919
<v Speaker 2>a elect everybody's heard of had a elector relatively few

0:41:22.920 --> 0:41:26.800
<v Speaker 2>people if you ask, would say Thomas Harris. He created

0:41:26.800 --> 0:41:30.800
<v Speaker 2>a genuinely mythic monster there in the form of a

0:41:30.840 --> 0:41:33.799
<v Speaker 2>serial killer. But I mean it ties into the way

0:41:33.840 --> 0:41:37.800
<v Speaker 2>in which, at a certain period the serial killer became

0:41:37.960 --> 0:41:42.480
<v Speaker 2>this mythic embodiment of different kinds of free floating fears

0:41:42.520 --> 0:41:45.439
<v Speaker 2>and anxieties, and it's kind of remained that way.

0:41:45.680 --> 0:41:47.800
<v Speaker 1>So I want to ask about the Jane I remember

0:41:48.480 --> 0:41:52.680
<v Speaker 1>when I read the Terrible True Confession in the Hearst periodical.

0:41:53.040 --> 0:41:55.279
<v Speaker 1>Do you remember that one where she kind of laid

0:41:55.320 --> 0:41:58.120
<v Speaker 1>out everything? Well, how do you feel about it?

0:41:58.840 --> 0:42:03.160
<v Speaker 2>You know, many notorious killers also wrote a true confession

0:42:03.200 --> 0:42:06.320
<v Speaker 2>for hers, and they were all totally fabricated. None of

0:42:06.360 --> 0:42:09.839
<v Speaker 2>them were real confessions. Hurst would sometimes pay them a

0:42:09.840 --> 0:42:14.080
<v Speaker 2>bunch of money. You have to understand that Hurst was

0:42:14.160 --> 0:42:17.160
<v Speaker 2>one of the great pioneers of what was called the

0:42:17.239 --> 0:42:20.880
<v Speaker 2>yellow Press. It was basically Hurst and Pulitzer and the

0:42:20.960 --> 0:42:26.840
<v Speaker 2>yellow Press that was a precursor of the tabloids. And

0:42:26.920 --> 0:42:31.000
<v Speaker 2>not just things like those confessions. They just make stuff

0:42:31.080 --> 0:42:34.439
<v Speaker 2>up in their news stories. You know that old saying,

0:42:34.520 --> 0:42:36.239
<v Speaker 2>never let the facts get in the way of a

0:42:36.280 --> 0:42:39.319
<v Speaker 2>good story. That was their credo. You know, they were

0:42:39.360 --> 0:42:41.799
<v Speaker 2>just making that stuff up. So I learned you had

0:42:41.840 --> 0:42:45.960
<v Speaker 2>to be very very, very very careful when you relied

0:42:46.120 --> 0:42:48.200
<v Speaker 2>on that kind of journalism.

0:42:48.480 --> 0:42:51.439
<v Speaker 1>Right, Well, thank you for validating that which I had

0:42:51.440 --> 0:42:53.760
<v Speaker 1>in the back of my head. And then I wanted

0:42:53.800 --> 0:42:58.560
<v Speaker 1>to ask you about the book that you are releasing

0:42:58.640 --> 0:43:01.960
<v Speaker 1>I think in the fall. Can you tell us about it.

0:43:03.160 --> 0:43:06.440
<v Speaker 2>Well, it's a book called murder Abelia, A History of

0:43:06.520 --> 0:43:10.120
<v Speaker 2>Crime in one hundred Objects. It's a book that I've

0:43:10.160 --> 0:43:13.360
<v Speaker 2>been wanting to do for a long time. When I

0:43:13.400 --> 0:43:17.560
<v Speaker 2>write books, I like to have a certain object connected

0:43:17.600 --> 0:43:20.840
<v Speaker 2>to the crime that I keep with me. These things

0:43:20.960 --> 0:43:24.000
<v Speaker 2>radiate with some kind of meaning, and it often makes

0:43:24.440 --> 0:43:26.560
<v Speaker 2>what I'm writing about more real to me. I don't

0:43:26.560 --> 0:43:29.000
<v Speaker 2>know if you remember John Walsh, you know, the America's

0:43:29.040 --> 0:43:32.680
<v Speaker 2>most wanted guy. He had a son, Adam, who was

0:43:32.760 --> 0:43:36.480
<v Speaker 2>abducted and horribly murdered. Anyway, Walsh had a kind of

0:43:36.480 --> 0:43:39.600
<v Speaker 2>overra like show for a while and he asked me

0:43:39.680 --> 0:43:43.680
<v Speaker 2>to be on the subject of people who collect all

0:43:43.719 --> 0:43:46.600
<v Speaker 2>these murder relics. And I was on with a guy

0:43:46.680 --> 0:43:51.239
<v Speaker 2>named Andy Kahan, who works for some kind of victim

0:43:51.480 --> 0:43:58.279
<v Speaker 2>advocacy department in the Houston Police Department. And Andy was

0:43:58.400 --> 0:44:02.319
<v Speaker 2>very horrified by the fact if there were people who would, like,

0:44:03.080 --> 0:44:07.120
<v Speaker 2>you know, collect a lock of Charles Manson's hair or something.

0:44:07.640 --> 0:44:10.960
<v Speaker 2>And he's the one who coined the term murderabilia. And

0:44:11.680 --> 0:44:14.960
<v Speaker 2>on the show I pointed out to him that there

0:44:15.000 --> 0:44:18.360
<v Speaker 2>was nothing new about this. I mean, you can go

0:44:18.440 --> 0:44:22.640
<v Speaker 2>back to the eighteenth hundreds and every time there was

0:44:22.680 --> 0:44:27.200
<v Speaker 2>a sacial crime, you know, crowds would converge on the

0:44:27.200 --> 0:44:31.800
<v Speaker 2>crime scene and take splinters of the house or whatever.

0:44:32.600 --> 0:44:35.719
<v Speaker 2>Back then, one of the perks of being an executioner

0:44:36.480 --> 0:44:39.640
<v Speaker 2>was you got to keep the noose, and these executioners

0:44:39.640 --> 0:44:41.839
<v Speaker 2>would cut the noose up into one inch pieces and

0:44:41.880 --> 0:44:46.680
<v Speaker 2>sell them. So for whatever reason, these dark, macabre relics.

0:44:47.040 --> 0:44:50.759
<v Speaker 2>I've always exerted this fascination, and you know I don't

0:44:50.760 --> 0:44:53.480
<v Speaker 2>collect them, but for one reason or another, I have

0:44:53.600 --> 0:44:56.560
<v Speaker 2>come into possession of a few of them. So the

0:44:56.640 --> 0:45:00.319
<v Speaker 2>book is not the history, but it's a history of

0:45:00.400 --> 0:45:04.279
<v Speaker 2>crime starting in the eighteen hundreds by eighteen thirty, and

0:45:04.320 --> 0:45:10.120
<v Speaker 2>each crime is accompanied by a picture of some object

0:45:10.200 --> 0:45:13.520
<v Speaker 2>that relates to the crime, and the object becomes kind

0:45:13.520 --> 0:45:16.040
<v Speaker 2>of a springboard for my talking about the crime.

0:45:16.400 --> 0:45:18.520
<v Speaker 1>Did you have an object for the Jane book?

0:45:18.800 --> 0:45:21.799
<v Speaker 2>Well, actually, I have a bottle of Hyundai mineral water,

0:45:22.680 --> 0:45:26.040
<v Speaker 2>which was her favorite beverage, which you dispensed what poison?

0:45:26.719 --> 0:45:29.880
<v Speaker 1>Did it still have the water in it? No, Okay, that.

0:45:29.840 --> 0:45:33.919
<v Speaker 2>Would be wild. Yeah, it's a beautiful bottle. So yes,

0:45:34.600 --> 0:45:35.960
<v Speaker 2>So what's in Murder of Bilia?

0:45:42.239 --> 0:45:44.360
<v Speaker 1>I'm so glad I got to share that with y'all.

0:45:45.440 --> 0:45:47.440
<v Speaker 1>Just a fun little aside that I didn't mention in

0:45:47.480 --> 0:45:50.200
<v Speaker 1>the interview because I didn't want to pull focus onto myself.

0:45:50.640 --> 0:45:54.080
<v Speaker 1>But when my book released mid Pandemic, my godfather also

0:45:54.160 --> 0:45:56.880
<v Speaker 1>sent me a bottle of Hunyati mineral water to celebrate.

0:45:57.239 --> 0:45:59.040
<v Speaker 1>I'll link in the show notes to the photo of

0:45:59.120 --> 0:46:02.960
<v Speaker 1>us choosing like my at the Murder Abelia. We also

0:46:03.040 --> 0:46:06.399
<v Speaker 1>have links to Harold Scheckter's books, both the one about

0:46:06.480 --> 0:46:11.600
<v Speaker 1>Jane Toppin and the forthcoming one entitled Murder Abelia, and

0:46:11.680 --> 0:46:16.719
<v Speaker 1>we'll have a link to my book there too. Join

0:46:16.760 --> 0:46:19.759
<v Speaker 1>me next week on the Greatest True Crime Stories Ever

0:46:19.840 --> 0:46:24.160
<v Speaker 1>Told for the remarkable story of Holly Dunn, the only

0:46:24.239 --> 0:46:31.160
<v Speaker 1>survivor of the Railroad serial Killer. For more information about

0:46:31.160 --> 0:46:34.400
<v Speaker 1>this case and others we cover on the show, visit

0:46:34.480 --> 0:46:38.880
<v Speaker 1>Diversion Audio dot com. Sign up for Diversion's newsletter and

0:46:38.960 --> 0:46:41.360
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0:46:59.480 --> 0:47:02.920
<v Speaker 1>Greatest Through Crime Stories Ever Told is a production of

0:47:03.000 --> 0:47:07.880
<v Speaker 1>Diversion Audio. I'm Mary Kay McBrayer. I wrote this episode

0:47:08.080 --> 0:47:12.120
<v Speaker 1>and our editorial director is Nora Batel. Our show is

0:47:12.160 --> 0:47:16.400
<v Speaker 1>produced and directed by Mark Francis. Our development team is

0:47:16.440 --> 0:47:22.359
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