WEBVTT - #222 Jason Flom with Jarrett Adams and Dmitri Henley 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:06.439 On September sixth, nineteen ninety eight, three teenagers from Chicago, 0:00:06.720 --> 0:00:09.720 Jared Adams, Dmitri Henley, and Rovon Hill, took a trip 0:00:09.760 --> 0:00:13.200 to the University of Wisconsin Whitewater for a party. While 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:15.280 trying to meet up with their friends, a student named 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:17.880 Sean Demain invited the guys into his dorm room to 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.360 use his phone, where they ended up hanging out with 0:00:20.440 --> 0:00:23.040 the man's friends and meeting two girls who will refer 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:27.000 to as the accuser and her roommate. After some flirting, 0:00:27.040 --> 0:00:29.720 the two young white women invited the three young black 0:00:29.760 --> 0:00:32.080 men back to their own dorm room, and the group 0:00:32.240 --> 0:00:35.960 slowly trickled up to the room. When the roommate finally arrived, 0:00:36.000 --> 0:00:38.839 the accuser was performing oral sex on one of the 0:00:38.880 --> 0:00:42.880 young men on the roommate's bed. Enraged, the roommate called 0:00:42.880 --> 0:00:45.200 the accuser a slut and ran out of the room. 0:00:45.680 --> 0:00:48.080 The accuser ran after her roommate, who went into a 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:51.600 friend's room and locked the door. When her apology was rebuffed, 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:55.360 the accuser returned to the room and continued the sexual encounter. 0:00:55.880 --> 0:00:58.760 Later on, the group all went outside to the smoking area, 0:00:58.800 --> 0:01:02.440 where they reconnected with John Demaine joked around and went home. 0:01:02.920 --> 0:01:06.000 It all seemed like a consensual coming of age experience 0:01:06.319 --> 0:01:10.040 until it wasn't. Three months later, the criminal legal system 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:13.160 and the racism that has always plagued our country came 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:17.560 to claim three more victims, and in typical fashion, money 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:22.280 and arbitrary procedural bars made for three radically different outcomes 0:01:22.319 --> 0:01:25.520 for these three young men, two of whom spent nearly 0:01:25.560 --> 0:01:30.679 a decade each behind bars. This is Wrongful Conviction with 0:01:30.800 --> 0:01:51.440 Jason Flaum. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:51.840 That's me. 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:56.600 I'm your host, and I am particularly excited today, even 0:01:56.640 --> 0:01:59.840 honored because we have such an incredible group of guests. 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:02.880 First of all, Keith Finley is on the show, and 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:05.320 Keith is all. I'm just going to say it like 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:08.200 it is. He's a legend in the innocence community, a 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:12.560 professor at the University of Wisconsin Law School, former president 0:02:12.600 --> 0:02:15.000 of the Innocence Network, which is an affiliation of early 0:02:15.080 --> 0:02:18.680 seventy innocence organizations throughout the world, co founder of the 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:21.920 Wisconsin Innocence Project. You may know him from Making a 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:24.519 Murderer as well. Keith, all I could say is I'm 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:25.799 really honored that you're here. 0:02:26.400 --> 0:02:27.000 Thanks so much. 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:28.280 I'm really glad to be with you here. 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:31.880 And so with us today are two guys I'm proud 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:34.560 to call my friends, both of whom are roughly convicted 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:37.040 of a crime that never happened. So, first of all, 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:41.800 Jared Adams, your journey post exoneration has been nothing short 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:45.239 of remarkable. Jared has been an attorney with the Innocence Project, 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:48.360 He's now in private practice, he's an author, He's been 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:52.079 on TV a bunch of times. Jared, I'm so sorry 0:02:52.080 --> 0:02:53.720 for what you went through, but I'm glad you're here. 0:02:53.919 --> 0:02:56.000 Thank you. Jason. I appreciate you having beyond. 0:02:56.560 --> 0:03:00.760 And with him is Dmitri Henley. Dmitri was convicted of 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:03.760 the same crime that Jarrett was convicted of, again as 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:07.320 a crime that didn't happen, and Dmitri still has not 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:09.680 gotten justice, and we're going to get into that. So 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:11.320 I appreciate you being here, Dmitri. 0:03:11.639 --> 0:03:12.760 All right, thanks for having me. 0:03:13.440 --> 0:03:16.680 So before we get into the store, Jarrett and Dmitri, 0:03:16.960 --> 0:03:19.760 where did you grow up and how was your life 0:03:20.160 --> 0:03:24.200 in a nutshell before this this insane saga began. 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:28.680 So we grew up South side of Chicago and attended 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:32.160 the same high school a little bit outside of Chicago 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:36.680 in the suburbs, and you know, we met through passing, 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:39.200 but we knew with each other and he and working 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:42.080 at the same summer job and started to hang out together. 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:45.080 So Jared, take us back to the day in question. 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:48.200 Its September sixth, nineteen ninety eight. You and Dmitria a 0:03:48.320 --> 0:03:51.440 third friend, Rovon Hill. You guys headed up to the 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:53.800 University of Wisconsin, Whitewater to go to a party, you know, 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:56.520 just doing like normal stuff that kids all over the 0:03:56.560 --> 0:04:00.560 country are doing basically every day, right, Yeah, So. 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:02.640 I mean, that's just it. The neighborhoods in which we 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:06.280 and Dmitria grew up in are extremely rough, and you know, 0:04:06.320 --> 0:04:09.440 we weren't in gangs doing drive by shooting each other. 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:11.600 That's just not what we were into. Each one of 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:14.800 us came from backgrounds and families where our families were 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:17.159 active in our lives. You know, where you're going, what 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:20.520 you're doing. So how we got there was this. We 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:24.040 each told our parents we were spending the night over 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:26.920 each other's house, and we all three went to go 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:29.200 to this party and puol what is known as. 0:04:29.200 --> 0:04:30.080 Like an all nighter. 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:32.560 We would go up to the party, party all night, 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:35.680 and then afterwards we would hit a waffle house and 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:38.640 be back home at about seven eight, you know in 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:41.839 the morning. Right, we had done it before, no issues, 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:45.240 no problems at all. And so we go to this 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:49.680 party and we're looking, you know for the main central 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:52.520 party room. But when we got to this campus, it 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:55.960 was parties in every dorm room. You could go to 0:04:56.080 --> 0:04:59.039 this dorm room, beer pong, this dorm room, people smoking 0:04:59.080 --> 0:05:03.480 weed and and so we just were kids escaping the 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:07.320 violence in Chicago going to a party on a college 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:10.600 campus like so many other kids do each and every 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:11.680 day in America. 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:13.800 Yes, I mean I think a lot of people are 0:05:13.800 --> 0:05:15.960 listening now and going, hey, that reminds me. One time 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:17.720 I went out, I told my parents da da dah, 0:05:17.720 --> 0:05:19.760 and then I stuck in. And you know, so who 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:22.680 is Sean Demain Because you ended up going to his 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:25.560 room to use the phone? Right, how does that play 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:26.200 into any of this? 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:29.800 So Shandamain actually saved our life. It's who he is 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:32.440 because he was the person who you know, unbiased and 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:34.080 supported you know, our version. 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:34.719 Of events, the truth. 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:37.679 And so when we go to this college campus again, 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:40.800 there's parties everywhere, but we're looking for a specific party. 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:44.159 So we talked to Shan Domain who was outside in 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:47.560 like a smoking area. And just so the listeners are understanding, 0:05:47.760 --> 0:05:50.200 this is nineteen ninety eight, so this is before everyone 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:53.080 had cell phones. People usually had pages, so we went 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:55.400 to use his phone. But when we were doing it, 0:05:55.400 --> 0:05:58.839 it was like his room was like party central checking. 0:05:59.040 --> 0:06:01.800 So it was everal people who would come in, Hey, 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:03.880 got what you guys doing. Hey, we're getting ready to 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:05.960 go here. Hey you got a beer? You know, Hey, 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:08.640 we'll be back downstairs a little bit later. We were 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:11.239 all playing video games in there, so when we're playing 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:14.839 a video games, it's when these two young ladies come 0:06:14.880 --> 0:06:19.520 into the dorm room and we're flirting, we're talking, we're laughing, 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:24.520 everybody's drinking, and eventually we all make our way upstairs 0:06:24.560 --> 0:06:28.880 to our accusers dorm room, and we did it like staggered. First, 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:32.120 Dmitri and Rovan went up and I came up a 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:34.080 few minutes later, and we were there. We were in 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:37.840 a room and we had a consensual encounter and this 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:41.159 young lady's roommate walked in on it, and that's when 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:44.359 the wheels of a false accusation started to turn. 0:06:44.800 --> 0:06:46.599 So the roommate walks in on you in the midst 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:48.920 of this sexual encounter and calls the accuser a slut 0:06:48.960 --> 0:06:51.599 and then runs down the hall to a friend's storm room. Now, 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:55.040 at this point, your accuser gets up, goes after the roommate, 0:06:55.360 --> 0:06:58.240 but doesn't say anything at all about being raped or 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:00.520 assault or anything like that, but simply not on the door, 0:07:00.560 --> 0:07:03.080 and says, are you mad at me? The roommate wouldn't 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:05.800 open the door, and according to a sworn statement I 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:08.280 have right here, the roommate said, and this is a 0:07:08.320 --> 0:07:11.000 direct quote, I told her to go back to doing 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:14.520 whatever she was doing, but not on my bed. So 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:17.560 it's probably fair to say that that might have been 0:07:17.600 --> 0:07:20.800 what made her mad. So the accuser went back to 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:24.600 the room they shared and continued the sexual encounter. So 0:07:25.200 --> 0:07:28.960 I mean, I don't think I'm alone here in being confused, 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:33.720 because if an actual assault was taking place, as was alleged, 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:37.840 why does her roommate call her a slut instead of 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:41.520 trying to do something to save her or summon help. 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:45.240 And after chasing her roommate down the hall, why did 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:48.320 she go back to her room instead of trying to 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:51.440 escape or again trying to cry out to get someone 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:54.040 to help her. It doesn't add up. 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:57.880 Number One, The roommate walks into her room and sees 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:02.840 the accuser on her bed engaging in what her looks 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:06.520 like consensual sexual activity. That's why she calls her a 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:09.400 slot and runs down the hall. Second point, if it's 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:12.000 a rape, are these guys going to let the victim 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:14.520 get up and leave at on her own free will? 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:17.240 Yet that's exactly what she did. Then, if it's a rape, 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:20.400 is the victim going to say, are you mad at me? 0:08:20.720 --> 0:08:22.320 Or is she going to say, hell me, I'm being raped? 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:24.480 But no, she says, are you mad at me? Now? 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:26.720 The question you asked is what's the explanation as to 0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:27.840 why she walked back. 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:28.240 To the room. 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:31.280 The closest they came to an explanation was that she 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:34.280 was going to leave, and she was walking towards the stairs, 0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:36.040 which took her past the bedroom, but there was a 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:37.720 stairwell at the other end of the hall. 0:08:37.800 --> 0:08:38.800 She didn't go that way. 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:42.199 She walked back towards her room, and in the process 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:46.240 she walked past the room of the ra who lived 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:49.120 on the hall, and didn't knock on that door ask 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:51.640 for help. During the course of the encounter, she got 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:54.200 a phone call from somebody and she chatted on the 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:57.400 phone and giggled, never said anything about I'm being raped. 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:00.480 I mean, it's just a head scratcher. How anyone could 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:02.800 have thought this was a sexual assault. 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:06.080 And not only that, I actually accompanied her walking down 0:09:06.280 --> 0:09:08.960 to the room that the roommate went into, and I 0:09:09.120 --> 0:09:11.360 was there with her while she was standing there trying 0:09:11.400 --> 0:09:12.960 to talk to her through the door, and when she 0:09:12.960 --> 0:09:15.360 could not even gain any access and went back to 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:17.880 the room, I stayed there because I tried to talk 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:20.280 her roommate out of the room, because we talked a 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:22.079 little bit when we was in Sean de Maine's room, 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:24.080 so I can actually hear them in the room, the 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:27.439 roommate and the residents of that room having a conversation. 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:29.720 But they decided not to come out, so I went 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:32.640 back to the room. We engaged in the sexual acts, 0:09:32.679 --> 0:09:35.679 and then we actually went downstairs to the smoking area. 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:38.760 And I thank god that we all did, because when 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:42.080 we went downstairs in the smoking area, Sean Demaine was 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:46.599 outside and he was the one who created the timeline 0:09:46.679 --> 0:09:50.480 of corroborating our innocence. It was so so crazy, because 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:54.160 this thing was out of embarrassment. You know, this girl 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:58.080 didn't go to the police or anything. She went to 0:09:58.200 --> 0:10:03.400 a friend and said, my roommates making these accusations about 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:05.880 me being a slut, saying that I was sleeping with 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:09.240 these black guys. That didn't happen. So before you hear it, 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:12.160 I was actually rape. It was that friend who went 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:15.480 to another friend, and that's how the rumor started to 0:10:15.480 --> 0:10:18.800 circulate and the investigation started. This young lady, through the 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:21.920 help of the police, said that she walked up to 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:25.040 her dorm room and was opening the door, and before 0:10:25.120 --> 0:10:27.200 she knew it, two to three black guys that she 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:29.640 didn't know was behind her, and we just walked our 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:31.920 way into her room, cut the lights out, and played 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:35.800 the music. The accusation wasn't that she knew us or 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:38.400 that she met us. We knew we had been invited up. 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:41.320 We knew that after the roommate had walked into the room, 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:43.920 we had all went down in the smoking area where 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:46.480 we were with Sean Demain again. And so if you're 0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:49.640 asking the questions about how on earth could an incomplete 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:52.440 and crazy story like this make its way to a 0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:55.000 conviction and result in twenty eight and twenty years. It's 0:10:55.040 --> 0:11:01.280 because we were try as black men raping a white girl, 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:04.680 and it did not matter if it made sense because 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:09.679 of the historical depiction of black men and white accuses. 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:11.839 And we know how that can go. 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:16.160 Three young black men from Chicago visiting UW Whitewater. It's 0:11:16.160 --> 0:11:19.880 a fairly rural community that's very white, and a lot 0:11:19.920 --> 0:11:23.120 of these sexual assault cases are difficult because he said, 0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:26.199 she said, But this one, in so many respects, wasn't 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:30.040 even he said, she said. The accuser's own version of 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:34.560 events was actually, in many respects, in many important respects, 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:38.960 the same as Dimitri and Jared's version, in that she 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:42.560 candidly admitted on the stand that no one used force 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:46.000 against her, no one raised their voice, no one threatened her. 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:48.520 And so when I read the transcripts of this, I 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:50.920 was scratching my head and said, well, where's the sexual assault? 0:11:51.080 --> 0:11:54.000 All we see here is that she says they engaged 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:56.280 in sex, And what made it a sexual assault in 0:11:56.320 --> 0:11:59.679 the prosecution's eyes and in this community's eyes, was that 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:03.600 she claim that, despite the absence of any physical force, 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:07.520 despite the absence of any threats, she went along with 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:12.160 the sexual acts because she was frightened of these men. Well, 0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:14.040 think about it. Why in the world would she be 0:12:14.080 --> 0:12:15.920 frightened of them if they were all at a college 0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:18.920 party together and they'd been flirting, and she invited them 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:21.400 up to her room. You know, nobody was doing anything 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:24.160 by onderarth writing. The only thing that I can conjure 0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:27.120 up in my mind that explains this potential fright is 0:12:27.120 --> 0:12:28.200 that they were black men. 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:28.720 You know. 0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:32.120 I was struck also as I was reviewing aspects of 0:12:32.160 --> 0:12:35.439 this horrible story that there was a number of months 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:37.800 went by before you were arrested. And of course I'm 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:41.000 talking about December one, nineteen ninety eight. But why was 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:43.920 that the lapsed time in there? This must have been 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:46.760 all in just distant memory at this point, right. 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:50.080 Yeah, Yeah, I really can't answer what took so long, 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:52.840 other than to suggest that, I mean, clearly, if it 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:55.000 had been an open and shutcase from the beginning, it 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:58.439 wouldn't have taken so long. Clearly, the police and prosecutors 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:02.560 recognized that there were problems with this story, and they 0:13:02.920 --> 0:13:05.640 took some time to build the best case they could. 0:13:05.679 --> 0:13:09.840 So, unbeknownst to us, Sean Demain wrote a three page 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:13.600 handwritten statement saying everything that we're saying right now on 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:17.120 this podcast. So the police had already had that statement 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:20.240 and they couldn't explain it. And then they went and 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:23.480 did a check on the phone records, and during the 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:26.120 time that we were up there in this young lady's room, 0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:29.000 the phone was ringing. She was on the phone talking 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:32.840 to friends. So the authorities, instead of allowing the evidence 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:34.840 to tell them the truth, they decided that they were 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:37.120 going to make a case and base it off of race. 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:39.320 And nothing was going to keep them from doing that. 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:42.440 So leading up to the arrest, you know, I'm working 0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:45.560 as an assistant manager at this grocery store and my 0:13:45.679 --> 0:13:48.240 dad comes by the job and says, hey, you know, 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:50.080 the police came by the house. They want you to 0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:52.880 come down to police station to grew you out as 0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:54.760 a suspect and an armed robbery. 0:13:54.840 --> 0:13:56.319 I said, Dad, this is absolutely nuts. 0:13:56.360 --> 0:13:59.199 That said, I'm not going down there, man, because I 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:00.360 don't know what they're doing to me. 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:01.280 I heard stories. 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:02.640 I didn't think it was gonna be a good idea, 0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:04.600 but my dad was like, no, I think you should go. 0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:07.200 So make a long story short, after work, I went 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:09.559 down there. My dad went along with me. He was 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:11.880 sitting down in the lobby. So I'm talking to one 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:14.040 of the texts at the time. You know, we just 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:15.880 want to rule you out, you know, we don't want 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:17.760 you to get in trouble. When we get done asking 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:20.000 a few questions, maybe we'll take you downstairs to take 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:20.640 some pictures. 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:23.200 So I said, okay, fine, no problem. So that's what. 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:25.640 Happened, same thing they did to me. 0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:28.160 I come home one day and there's a card in 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:30.480 my door and it's from the police and it says 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:33.800 robbery homicide. I'm like, nah, I know they got the 0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:36.400 wrong God like, let me let me call in before 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:38.880 my crazy father see this in this door and just 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:39.760 go nuts, right. 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:41.600 So I called. 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:43.640 And the guy was like, hey, you know this is 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:45.760 a textive so and so, and you know, we just 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:47.400 want you to come down and take a picture so 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:49.440 we can, you know, rule you out of this accusation 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:51.920 because you know, we know you've never been in trouble 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:54.040 and we don't have you know, a booking photo or 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:56.240 anything like that. You know, just come rule yourself out. 0:14:56.280 --> 0:14:57.920 I'm like, man, I'm on my way. So when I 0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:01.680 go down there and they have an investigator from Wisconsin 0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:04.440 there and the investigator is asking me all these questions 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:07.200 about you know, us going to the party, and did 0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:09.240 you go to the party, did you have sex at 0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:12.320 this party? And I'm answering the question straight forward, like 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:14.160 like I'm doing now. Yeah, you know, we had a 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:16.960 crazy incident with this girl and her roommate were arguing. 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:20.480 So they come and arrest me for a first degree 0:15:20.800 --> 0:15:24.960 sexual assault and I'm like sexual assault, Like when did 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:25.400 this happen? 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:27.440 I wasn't disbelieve. I couldn't believe it. 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:29.600 And being a kid at that time, I'm thinking that 0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:32.480 they're going to arrest me. I'm finna go right out 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:35.480 here to prove my innoc's nabby, right back to my life. 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:53.520 Of course, she didn't happen that way. 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:58.000 I was gonna be charged, along with Dimitri and Rovan 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:01.600 with five counts of first to resexual assault. I think 0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:04.760 I was turning eighteen, like a couple months later, and 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:08.640 Dimitri had already turned eighteen and Rovan was eighteen, so 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:12.600 we were all kids, Like I remember being so quiet, 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:15.440 you know, on that intake getting off the bus going 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:16.120 through intake. 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:19.080 We wasn't in Kansas anymore, you know. 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:23.040 So all three of you guys were arrested on December 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:26.000 first of nineteen ninety eight. I'm talking about Ravan of course, 0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:29.000 as the third person arrested, but we haven't really talked 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:31.680 about him. Keith, if you could explain how these. 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:35.040 Paths diverged at this point, right, because the three guys 0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:37.680 were all accused of the same exact thing, in the 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:41.400 same exact circumstance, but all three ended up with completely 0:16:41.400 --> 0:16:42.440 different outcomes. 0:16:43.040 --> 0:16:45.720 Yeah, it was exact same conduct, the exact same incident, 0:16:45.760 --> 0:16:50.200 the exact same time, place, circumstance, exact same evidence. Everything 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:54.280 was identical. But you're exactly right, three very different outcomes, 0:16:54.320 --> 0:16:56.840 which is part of what we've been trying to get 0:16:56.880 --> 0:16:59.200 the legal system to pay attention to. And how did 0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:01.760 that happen, Well, the three of them were charged together. 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:05.919 They were tried together initially, but the first trial ended 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:10.560 in a mistrial. The prosecution was apparently expecting a strong 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:13.679 statement from the accuser coming in about how she was 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:16.000 forced and all that, and yet when she got up 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:20.000 on the stand, she acknowledged that there was no force used, 0:17:20.119 --> 0:17:21.680 that no one threatened her. 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:22.119 Et cetera. 0:17:22.359 --> 0:17:25.480 And so the prosecutor recognized that there was a fatal 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:28.959 flaw in the case as originally charged, and so the 0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:33.320 prosecutor moved to amend the charges to fit the evidence 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:36.120 as it had come in from the accuser. And at 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:40.760 that point Gerald Boyle, defense attorney for Ravan Hill, just 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:44.359 went nuts objected, and the court agreed that it was 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:47.760 unfair to amend the charges mid trial like that, after 0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:50.800 the case had been partly presented, after strategies had been 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:54.440 locked in and whatnot, and so the prosecutor declared a mistrial. 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:58.200 A mistrial simply means that this trial ends and we're going. 0:17:58.160 --> 0:17:58.840 To do it again. 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:01.560 But there are some circles instances in which a mistrial 0:18:01.800 --> 0:18:05.359 ends the case for good. And Ravon Hill's lawyer thought 0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:09.520 that this mistrial was caused by the prosecution's own mistakes 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:13.320 and therefore a retrial should be barred. And so as 0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:16.760 the prosecution set to retry all three of them, Ravon 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:20.600 Hill and his attorney sought leave to appeal and to 0:18:20.760 --> 0:18:24.199 stop the retrial from occurring. The prosecution, not wanting to 0:18:24.280 --> 0:18:27.719 wait for that appeal to be concluded, then just pulled 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:31.679 Dmitri in Garrett's cases away from Ravan's and initiated the 0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:36.159 retrial for them without Ravan Why Jarrett and Dmitri's lawyers 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:39.000 didn't join in that appeal. I have no idea, but 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:42.640 they didn't didn't stop the appeal, so Dmitri and Jarrett 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:46.040 were tried together without ravon at a second trial. 0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:49.480 What's particularly sickening to me is the fact that your 0:18:49.680 --> 0:18:54.760 attorneys called no witnesses at the trial. No freaking witnesses here. 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:57.520 It is your life is at stake. They didn't even 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:00.120 make an effort on your behalf. 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:01.880 Tell them about the no defense theory, Kief. 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:05.600 Yeah, so that's actually the basis upon which we ultimately 0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:09.800 succeeded in getting Jared's conviction overturned, was claiming that defense 0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:13.960 council was constitutionally deficient under the sixth Amendment. Both Dimitri 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:16.919 and Jareded's lawyers got together and talked about it and 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:20.440 decided they would present what they called a no defense defense, 0:19:20.680 --> 0:19:23.440 which means they were just going to rest on the 0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:26.399 prosecution's case and say, well, they didn't prove guilt beyond 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:28.840 a reasonable doubt, so we're not going to put on anything. 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:31.440 And what we argued in what the United States Court 0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:34.280 of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit agreed was that made 0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:37.240 absolutely no sense at all because they had a defense 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:41.040 this was entirely consensual, and the consensual nature of it 0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:44.919 was in a very compelling way, corroborated established by the 0:19:45.000 --> 0:19:48.400 testimony not only of the accuser's roommate, but also by 0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:52.200 the testimony of Shan Domain And these lawyers never even 0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:55.040 talked to Shan Demaine. 0:19:55.320 --> 0:19:58.399 So let's just go to the moment that had to 0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:01.280 be the worst moment of a lot worst moments, which is, 0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:03.200 of course, when the jury came back. 0:20:03.880 --> 0:20:06.960 I remember sitting out in the lobby talking to my dad, 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:08.879 and my dad the type of guy he was. 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:10.679 He was a very confident guy, you know. 0:20:11.000 --> 0:20:13.840 For seeing my dad when he was reacting, and seeing 0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:15.840 Jared Diad how he was reacting when we were talking 0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:19.840 about really strong men, I mean, just out there, very nervous. 0:20:20.080 --> 0:20:22.560