1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:06,439 Speaker 1: On September sixth, nineteen ninety eight, three teenagers from Chicago, 2 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:09,720 Speaker 1: Jared Adams, Dmitri Henley, and Rovon Hill, took a trip 3 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 1: to the University of Wisconsin Whitewater for a party. While 4 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: trying to meet up with their friends, a student named 5 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: Sean Demain invited the guys into his dorm room to 6 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: use his phone, where they ended up hanging out with 7 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: the man's friends and meeting two girls who will refer 8 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: to as the accuser and her roommate. After some flirting, 9 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: the two young white women invited the three young black 10 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: men back to their own dorm room, and the group 11 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: slowly trickled up to the room. When the roommate finally arrived, 12 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:38,839 Speaker 1: the accuser was performing oral sex on one of the 13 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:42,880 Speaker 1: young men on the roommate's bed. Enraged, the roommate called 14 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:45,200 Speaker 1: the accuser a slut and ran out of the room. 15 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: The accuser ran after her roommate, who went into a 16 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 1: friend's room and locked the door. When her apology was rebuffed, 17 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: the accuser returned to the room and continued the sexual encounter. 18 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: Later on, the group all went outside to the smoking area, 19 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: where they reconnected with John Demaine joked around and went home. 20 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: It all seemed like a consensual coming of age experience 21 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: until it wasn't. Three months later, the criminal legal system 22 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: and the racism that has always plagued our country came 23 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 1: to claim three more victims, and in typical fashion, money 24 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: and arbitrary procedural bars made for three radically different outcomes 25 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: for these three young men, two of whom spent nearly 26 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 1: a decade each behind bars. This is Wrongful Conviction with 27 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: Jason Flaum. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. 28 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 2: That's me. 29 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: I'm your host, and I am particularly excited today, even 30 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: honored because we have such an incredible group of guests. 31 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: First of all, Keith Finley is on the show, and 32 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: Keith is all. I'm just going to say it like 33 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: it is. He's a legend in the innocence community, a 34 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: professor at the University of Wisconsin Law School, former president 35 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: of the Innocence Network, which is an affiliation of early 36 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: seventy innocence organizations throughout the world, co founder of the 37 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:21,920 Speaker 1: Wisconsin Innocence Project. You may know him from Making a 38 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:24,519 Speaker 1: Murderer as well. Keith, all I could say is I'm 39 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:25,799 Speaker 1: really honored that you're here. 40 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 2: Thanks so much. 41 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 3: I'm really glad to be with you here. 42 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: And so with us today are two guys I'm proud 43 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: to call my friends, both of whom are roughly convicted 44 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 1: of a crime that never happened. So, first of all, 45 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 1: Jared Adams, your journey post exoneration has been nothing short 46 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:45,239 Speaker 1: of remarkable. Jared has been an attorney with the Innocence Project, 47 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:48,360 Speaker 1: He's now in private practice, he's an author, He's been 48 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:52,079 Speaker 1: on TV a bunch of times. Jared, I'm so sorry 49 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: for what you went through, but I'm glad you're here. 50 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 2: Thank you. Jason. I appreciate you having beyond. 51 00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: And with him is Dmitri Henley. Dmitri was convicted of 52 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: the same crime that Jarrett was convicted of, again as 53 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 1: a crime that didn't happen, and Dmitri still has not 54 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 1: gotten justice, and we're going to get into that. So 55 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 1: I appreciate you being here, Dmitri. 56 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 4: All right, thanks for having me. 57 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: So before we get into the store, Jarrett and Dmitri, 58 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: where did you grow up and how was your life 59 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: in a nutshell before this this insane saga began. 60 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 5: So we grew up South side of Chicago and attended 61 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 5: the same high school a little bit outside of Chicago 62 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 5: in the suburbs, and you know, we met through passing, 63 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 5: but we knew with each other and he and working 64 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 5: at the same summer job and started to hang out together. 65 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: So Jared, take us back to the day in question. 66 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: Its September sixth, nineteen ninety eight. You and Dmitria a 67 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: third friend, Rovon Hill. You guys headed up to the 68 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: University of Wisconsin, Whitewater to go to a party, you know, 69 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: just doing like normal stuff that kids all over the 70 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: country are doing basically every day, right, Yeah, So. 71 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 5: I mean, that's just it. The neighborhoods in which we 72 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 5: and Dmitria grew up in are extremely rough, and you know, 73 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 5: we weren't in gangs doing drive by shooting each other. 74 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 5: That's just not what we were into. Each one of 75 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 5: us came from backgrounds and families where our families were 76 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 5: active in our lives. You know, where you're going, what 77 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 5: you're doing. So how we got there was this. We 78 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:24,040 Speaker 5: each told our parents we were spending the night over 79 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 5: each other's house, and we all three went to go 80 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 5: to this party and puol what is known as. 81 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 2: Like an all nighter. 82 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 5: We would go up to the party, party all night, 83 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 5: and then afterwards we would hit a waffle house and 84 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 5: be back home at about seven eight, you know in 85 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 5: the morning. Right, we had done it before, no issues, 86 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 5: no problems at all. And so we go to this 87 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 5: party and we're looking, you know for the main central 88 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 5: party room. But when we got to this campus, it 89 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 5: was parties in every dorm room. You could go to 90 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,039 Speaker 5: this dorm room, beer pong, this dorm room, people smoking 91 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:03,480 Speaker 5: weed and and so we just were kids escaping the 92 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 5: violence in Chicago going to a party on a college 93 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,600 Speaker 5: campus like so many other kids do each and every 94 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 5: day in America. 95 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: Yes, I mean I think a lot of people are 96 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: listening now and going, hey, that reminds me. One time 97 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:17,720 Speaker 1: I went out, I told my parents da da dah, 98 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: and then I stuck in. And you know, so who 99 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 1: is Sean Demain Because you ended up going to his 100 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 1: room to use the phone? Right, how does that play 101 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: into any of this? 102 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 5: So Shandamain actually saved our life. It's who he is 103 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 5: because he was the person who you know, unbiased and 104 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 5: supported you know, our version. 105 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:34,719 Speaker 2: Of events, the truth. 106 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:37,679 Speaker 5: And so when we go to this college campus again, 107 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 5: there's parties everywhere, but we're looking for a specific party. 108 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 5: So we talked to Shan Domain who was outside in 109 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 5: like a smoking area. And just so the listeners are understanding, 110 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 5: this is nineteen ninety eight, so this is before everyone 111 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 5: had cell phones. People usually had pages, so we went 112 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 5: to use his phone. But when we were doing it, 113 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:58,839 Speaker 5: it was like his room was like party central checking. 114 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 5: So it was everal people who would come in, Hey, 115 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 5: got what you guys doing. Hey, we're getting ready to 116 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 5: go here. Hey you got a beer? You know, Hey, 117 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 5: we'll be back downstairs a little bit later. We were 118 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,239 Speaker 5: all playing video games in there, so when we're playing 119 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 5: a video games, it's when these two young ladies come 120 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 5: into the dorm room and we're flirting, we're talking, we're laughing, 121 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 5: everybody's drinking, and eventually we all make our way upstairs 122 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 5: to our accusers dorm room, and we did it like staggered. First, 123 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 5: Dmitri and Rovan went up and I came up a 124 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 5: few minutes later, and we were there. We were in 125 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:37,840 Speaker 5: a room and we had a consensual encounter and this 126 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 5: young lady's roommate walked in on it, and that's when 127 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:44,359 Speaker 5: the wheels of a false accusation started to turn. 128 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:46,599 Speaker 1: So the roommate walks in on you in the midst 129 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: of this sexual encounter and calls the accuser a slut 130 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:51,599 Speaker 1: and then runs down the hall to a friend's storm room. Now, 131 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 1: at this point, your accuser gets up, goes after the roommate, 132 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: but doesn't say anything at all about being raped or 133 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 1: assault or anything like that, but simply not on the door, 134 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 1: and says, are you mad at me? The roommate wouldn't 135 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: open the door, and according to a sworn statement I 136 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 1: have right here, the roommate said, and this is a 137 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: direct quote, I told her to go back to doing 138 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 1: whatever she was doing, but not on my bed. So 139 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: it's probably fair to say that that might have been 140 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: what made her mad. So the accuser went back to 141 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: the room they shared and continued the sexual encounter. So 142 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think I'm alone here in being confused, 143 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: because if an actual assault was taking place, as was alleged, 144 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: why does her roommate call her a slut instead of 145 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 1: trying to do something to save her or summon help. 146 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 1: And after chasing her roommate down the hall, why did 147 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: she go back to her room instead of trying to 148 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 1: escape or again trying to cry out to get someone 149 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: to help her. It doesn't add up. 150 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 3: Number One, The roommate walks into her room and sees 151 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 3: the accuser on her bed engaging in what her looks 152 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 3: like consensual sexual activity. That's why she calls her a 153 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 3: slot and runs down the hall. Second point, if it's 154 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 3: a rape, are these guys going to let the victim 155 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 3: get up and leave at on her own free will? 156 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 3: Yet that's exactly what she did. Then, if it's a rape, 157 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 3: is the victim going to say, are you mad at me? 158 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 3: Or is she going to say, hell me, I'm being raped? 159 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 3: But no, she says, are you mad at me? Now? 160 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 3: The question you asked is what's the explanation as to 161 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 3: why she walked back. 162 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 2: To the room. 163 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 3: The closest they came to an explanation was that she 164 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 3: was going to leave, and she was walking towards the stairs, 165 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 3: which took her past the bedroom, but there was a 166 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 3: stairwell at the other end of the hall. 167 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 2: She didn't go that way. 168 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:42,199 Speaker 3: She walked back towards her room, and in the process 169 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 3: she walked past the room of the ra who lived 170 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 3: on the hall, and didn't knock on that door ask 171 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 3: for help. During the course of the encounter, she got 172 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 3: a phone call from somebody and she chatted on the 173 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 3: phone and giggled, never said anything about I'm being raped. 174 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 3: I mean, it's just a head scratcher. How anyone could 175 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 3: have thought this was a sexual assault. 176 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 6: And not only that, I actually accompanied her walking down 177 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 6: to the room that the roommate went into, and I 178 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 6: was there with her while she was standing there trying 179 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 6: to talk to her through the door, and when she 180 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 6: could not even gain any access and went back to 181 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 6: the room, I stayed there because I tried to talk 182 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 6: her roommate out of the room, because we talked a 183 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:22,079 Speaker 6: little bit when we was in Sean de Maine's room, 184 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 6: so I can actually hear them in the room, the 185 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,439 Speaker 6: roommate and the residents of that room having a conversation. 186 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 6: But they decided not to come out, so I went 187 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 6: back to the room. We engaged in the sexual acts, 188 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:35,679 Speaker 6: and then we actually went downstairs to the smoking area. 189 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 5: And I thank god that we all did, because when 190 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 5: we went downstairs in the smoking area, Sean Demaine was 191 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:46,599 Speaker 5: outside and he was the one who created the timeline 192 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 5: of corroborating our innocence. It was so so crazy, because 193 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 5: this thing was out of embarrassment. You know, this girl 194 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 5: didn't go to the police or anything. She went to 195 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 5: a friend and said, my roommates making these accusations about 196 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 5: me being a slut, saying that I was sleeping with 197 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 5: these black guys. That didn't happen. So before you hear it, 198 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 5: I was actually rape. It was that friend who went 199 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 5: to another friend, and that's how the rumor started to 200 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 5: circulate and the investigation started. This young lady, through the 201 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 5: help of the police, said that she walked up to 202 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 5: her dorm room and was opening the door, and before 203 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 5: she knew it, two to three black guys that she 204 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 5: didn't know was behind her, and we just walked our 205 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 5: way into her room, cut the lights out, and played 206 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 5: the music. The accusation wasn't that she knew us or 207 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 5: that she met us. We knew we had been invited up. 208 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 5: We knew that after the roommate had walked into the room, 209 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 5: we had all went down in the smoking area where 210 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 5: we were with Sean Demain again. And so if you're 211 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 5: asking the questions about how on earth could an incomplete 212 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 5: and crazy story like this make its way to a 213 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 5: conviction and result in twenty eight and twenty years. It's 214 00:10:55,040 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 5: because we were try as black men raping a white girl, 215 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 5: and it did not matter if it made sense because 216 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:09,679 Speaker 5: of the historical depiction of black men and white accuses. 217 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:11,839 Speaker 1: And we know how that can go. 218 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 3: Three young black men from Chicago visiting UW Whitewater. It's 219 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 3: a fairly rural community that's very white, and a lot 220 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 3: of these sexual assault cases are difficult because he said, 221 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,199 Speaker 3: she said, But this one, in so many respects, wasn't 222 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 3: even he said, she said. The accuser's own version of 223 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 3: events was actually, in many respects, in many important respects, 224 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 3: the same as Dimitri and Jared's version, in that she 225 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 3: candidly admitted on the stand that no one used force 226 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 3: against her, no one raised their voice, no one threatened her. 227 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 3: And so when I read the transcripts of this, I 228 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 3: was scratching my head and said, well, where's the sexual assault? 229 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 3: All we see here is that she says they engaged 230 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 3: in sex, And what made it a sexual assault in 231 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,679 Speaker 3: the prosecution's eyes and in this community's eyes, was that 232 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 3: she claim that, despite the absence of any physical force, 233 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 3: despite the absence of any threats, she went along with 234 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 3: the sexual acts because she was frightened of these men. Well, 235 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 3: think about it. Why in the world would she be 236 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 3: frightened of them if they were all at a college 237 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 3: party together and they'd been flirting, and she invited them 238 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 3: up to her room. You know, nobody was doing anything 239 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 3: by onderarth writing. The only thing that I can conjure 240 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 3: up in my mind that explains this potential fright is 241 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 3: that they were black men. 242 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 2: You know. 243 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 1: I was struck also as I was reviewing aspects of 244 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:35,439 Speaker 1: this horrible story that there was a number of months 245 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: went by before you were arrested. And of course I'm 246 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: talking about December one, nineteen ninety eight. But why was 247 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: that the lapsed time in there? This must have been 248 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: all in just distant memory at this point, right. 249 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, I really can't answer what took so long, 250 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 3: other than to suggest that, I mean, clearly, if it 251 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 3: had been an open and shutcase from the beginning, it 252 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:58,439 Speaker 3: wouldn't have taken so long. Clearly, the police and prosecutors 253 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 3: recognized that there were problems with this story, and they 254 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 3: took some time to build the best case they could. 255 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 5: So, unbeknownst to us, Sean Demain wrote a three page 256 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 5: handwritten statement saying everything that we're saying right now on 257 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 5: this podcast. So the police had already had that statement 258 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 5: and they couldn't explain it. And then they went and 259 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 5: did a check on the phone records, and during the 260 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 5: time that we were up there in this young lady's room, 261 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 5: the phone was ringing. She was on the phone talking 262 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 5: to friends. So the authorities, instead of allowing the evidence 263 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 5: to tell them the truth, they decided that they were 264 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 5: going to make a case and base it off of race. 265 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 2: And nothing was going to keep them from doing that. 266 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,440 Speaker 6: So leading up to the arrest, you know, I'm working 267 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 6: as an assistant manager at this grocery store and my 268 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 6: dad comes by the job and says, hey, you know, 269 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 6: the police came by the house. They want you to 270 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 6: come down to police station to grew you out as 271 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 6: a suspect and an armed robbery. 272 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:56,319 Speaker 4: I said, Dad, this is absolutely nuts. 273 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:59,199 Speaker 6: That said, I'm not going down there, man, because I 274 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 6: don't know what they're doing to me. 275 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 4: I heard stories. 276 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 6: I didn't think it was gonna be a good idea, 277 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 6: but my dad was like, no, I think you should go. 278 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 6: So make a long story short, after work, I went 279 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:09,559 Speaker 6: down there. My dad went along with me. He was 280 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 6: sitting down in the lobby. So I'm talking to one 281 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 6: of the texts at the time. You know, we just 282 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 6: want to rule you out, you know, we don't want 283 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 6: you to get in trouble. When we get done asking 284 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 6: a few questions, maybe we'll take you downstairs to take 285 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 6: some pictures. 286 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 4: So I said, okay, fine, no problem. So that's what. 287 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 2: Happened, same thing they did to me. 288 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 5: I come home one day and there's a card in 289 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 5: my door and it's from the police and it says 290 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 5: robbery homicide. I'm like, nah, I know they got the 291 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 5: wrong God like, let me let me call in before 292 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 5: my crazy father see this in this door and just 293 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 5: go nuts, right. 294 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 2: So I called. 295 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 5: And the guy was like, hey, you know this is 296 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 5: a textive so and so, and you know, we just 297 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 5: want you to come down and take a picture so 298 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 5: we can, you know, rule you out of this accusation 299 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 5: because you know, we know you've never been in trouble 300 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 5: and we don't have you know, a booking photo or 301 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 5: anything like that. You know, just come rule yourself out. 302 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 5: I'm like, man, I'm on my way. So when I 303 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 5: go down there and they have an investigator from Wisconsin 304 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 5: there and the investigator is asking me all these questions 305 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 5: about you know, us going to the party, and did 306 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 5: you go to the party, did you have sex at 307 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 5: this party? And I'm answering the question straight forward, like 308 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 5: like I'm doing now. Yeah, you know, we had a 309 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 5: crazy incident with this girl and her roommate were arguing. 310 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 6: So they come and arrest me for a first degree 311 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 6: sexual assault and I'm like sexual assault, Like when did 312 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 6: this happen? 313 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 4: I wasn't disbelieve. I couldn't believe it. 314 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 6: And being a kid at that time, I'm thinking that 315 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 6: they're going to arrest me. I'm finna go right out 316 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 6: here to prove my innoc's nabby, right back to my life. 317 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 6: Of course, she didn't happen that way. 318 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 5: I was gonna be charged, along with Dimitri and Rovan 319 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 5: with five counts of first to resexual assault. I think 320 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 5: I was turning eighteen, like a couple months later, and 321 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 5: Dimitri had already turned eighteen and Rovan was eighteen, so 322 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 5: we were all kids, Like I remember being so quiet, 323 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 5: you know, on that intake getting off the bus going 324 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 5: through intake. 325 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 2: We wasn't in Kansas anymore, you know. 326 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: So all three of you guys were arrested on December 327 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 1: first of nineteen ninety eight. I'm talking about Ravan of course, 328 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: as the third person arrested, but we haven't really talked 329 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: about him. Keith, if you could explain how these. 330 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 7: Paths diverged at this point, right, because the three guys 331 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 7: were all accused of the same exact thing, in the 332 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 7: same exact circumstance, but all three ended up with completely 333 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 7: different outcomes. 334 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was exact same conduct, the exact same incident, 335 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 3: the exact same time, place, circumstance, exact same evidence. Everything 336 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 3: was identical. But you're exactly right, three very different outcomes, 337 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 3: which is part of what we've been trying to get 338 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 3: the legal system to pay attention to. And how did 339 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 3: that happen, Well, the three of them were charged together. 340 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,919 Speaker 3: They were tried together initially, but the first trial ended 341 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 3: in a mistrial. The prosecution was apparently expecting a strong 342 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:13,679 Speaker 3: statement from the accuser coming in about how she was 343 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 3: forced and all that, and yet when she got up 344 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 3: on the stand, she acknowledged that there was no force used, 345 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:21,680 Speaker 3: that no one threatened her. 346 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:22,119 Speaker 2: Et cetera. 347 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 3: And so the prosecutor recognized that there was a fatal 348 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,959 Speaker 3: flaw in the case as originally charged, and so the 349 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 3: prosecutor moved to amend the charges to fit the evidence 350 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,120 Speaker 3: as it had come in from the accuser. And at 351 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 3: that point Gerald Boyle, defense attorney for Ravan Hill, just 352 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 3: went nuts objected, and the court agreed that it was 353 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 3: unfair to amend the charges mid trial like that, after 354 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 3: the case had been partly presented, after strategies had been 355 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:54,440 Speaker 3: locked in and whatnot, and so the prosecutor declared a mistrial. 356 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 3: A mistrial simply means that this trial ends and we're going. 357 00:17:58,160 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: To do it again. 358 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 3: But there are some circles instances in which a mistrial 359 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 3: ends the case for good. And Ravon Hill's lawyer thought 360 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 3: that this mistrial was caused by the prosecution's own mistakes 361 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 3: and therefore a retrial should be barred. And so as 362 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 3: the prosecution set to retry all three of them, Ravon 363 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 3: Hill and his attorney sought leave to appeal and to 364 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:24,199 Speaker 3: stop the retrial from occurring. The prosecution, not wanting to 365 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:27,719 Speaker 3: wait for that appeal to be concluded, then just pulled 366 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:31,679 Speaker 3: Dmitri in Garrett's cases away from Ravan's and initiated the 367 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 3: retrial for them without Ravan Why Jarrett and Dmitri's lawyers 368 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 3: didn't join in that appeal. I have no idea, but 369 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:42,640 Speaker 3: they didn't didn't stop the appeal, so Dmitri and Jarrett 370 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 3: were tried together without ravon at a second trial. 371 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 1: What's particularly sickening to me is the fact that your 372 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: attorneys called no witnesses at the trial. No freaking witnesses here. 373 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 1: It is your life is at stake. They didn't even 374 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:00,120 Speaker 1: make an effort on your behalf. 375 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:01,880 Speaker 5: Tell them about the no defense theory, Kief. 376 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's actually the basis upon which we ultimately 377 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 3: succeeded in getting Jared's conviction overturned, was claiming that defense 378 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 3: council was constitutionally deficient under the sixth Amendment. Both Dimitri 379 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:16,919 Speaker 3: and Jareded's lawyers got together and talked about it and 380 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:20,440 Speaker 3: decided they would present what they called a no defense defense, 381 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,440 Speaker 3: which means they were just going to rest on the 382 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 3: prosecution's case and say, well, they didn't prove guilt beyond 383 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 3: a reasonable doubt, so we're not going to put on anything. 384 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 3: And what we argued in what the United States Court 385 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 3: of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit agreed was that made 386 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 3: absolutely no sense at all because they had a defense 387 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 3: this was entirely consensual, and the consensual nature of it 388 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,919 Speaker 3: was in a very compelling way, corroborated established by the 389 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,400 Speaker 3: testimony not only of the accuser's roommate, but also by 390 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 3: the testimony of Shan Domain And these lawyers never even 391 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 3: talked to Shan Demaine. 392 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 1: So let's just go to the moment that had to 393 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 1: be the worst moment of a lot worst moments, which is, 394 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 1: of course, when the jury came back. 395 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 6: I remember sitting out in the lobby talking to my dad, 396 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 6: and my dad the type of guy he was. 397 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:10,679 Speaker 4: He was a very confident guy, you know. 398 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 6: For seeing my dad when he was reacting, and seeing 399 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 6: Jared Diad how he was reacting when we were talking 400 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 6: about really strong men, I mean, just out there, very nervous. 401 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 6: I couldn't help at that moment before we even heard 402 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 6: the verdict, just become very emotional. 403 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:28,199 Speaker 5: Yeah, I remember both our dads, you know, had to 404 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 5: be escorted out of the courtroom. 405 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 2: You know, they just couldn't believe it. 406 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,200 Speaker 5: And when we're found guilty, I just, man, I had 407 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 5: to say something. So I'm like, this is a lie, 408 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 5: you know, I'm apologizing to my parents. I'm like, but 409 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 5: I'm not about to apologize for a rape I didn't commit. 410 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 5: So they ended up giving me eight more years in 411 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,159 Speaker 5: prison based on that, saying that I wasn't remorse for 412 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 5: and I had an outburst. So me and Dmitri were 413 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 5: split up based on that, I went to a maximum 414 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:57,680 Speaker 5: slash super maximum. Dmitri because he had twenty years, he 415 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 5: was like on a track to go to meet prison 416 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 5: right away. Based on the time in Wisconsin, if you 417 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 5: get anything over twenty five years, you're basically going to 418 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 5: go do time with everybody who has twenty five to life. 419 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 5: And so after we were found guilty, Ravine hadn't went 420 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 5: to trial yet. I started to write letters to Raban's attorney. 421 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 5: That's when boiling them for the first time interview Sean Demain, 422 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:25,639 Speaker 5: and when they interviewed Shondmain, they called them as a 423 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,440 Speaker 5: witness and Demain was like, look, I wrote a three 424 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:30,919 Speaker 5: page statement when the officer came and talked to me 425 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,199 Speaker 5: the night after, so I don't know what else you 426 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 5: guys want. That's how we found out that the officer 427 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 5: never turned over that three paige statement. It was never 428 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 5: a part of the record when we were going to trial. 429 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 3: So they proceeded with a retrial against Ravne, and Ravne 430 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:50,439 Speaker 3: having a better lawyer than had been assigned to Jared 431 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:54,879 Speaker 3: and Dimitri. Ravane's lawyer saw the value of Sean Demain 432 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 3: as a neutral, independent witness who could both corroborate that 433 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 3: the girls had been flirting with the boys before and 434 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 3: had invited them up to their rooms, and even more importantly, 435 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 3: could establish that after the alleged sexual assault, he saw 436 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 3: Jarrett and Dimitri, along with the accuser and her roommate, 437 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 3: socializing and laughing together in the smoking area outside the 438 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:22,440 Speaker 3: dorm rooms, which was entirely inconsistent with the accuser's version 439 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 3: of events and entirely inconsistent with what would have happened 440 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 3: had they just completed a sexual assault. And so, having 441 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 3: presented shond Mayne's testimony at his own trial, the jury deadlocked, 442 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,639 Speaker 3: was unable to reach a verdict, and so another mistrial 443 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,679 Speaker 3: was declared and all of the charges that were ultimately 444 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 3: dismissed against Ravane. 445 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,160 Speaker 5: I want to say one of the roughest days where 446 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:49,679 Speaker 5: I really just started to fall into a shale was 447 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:53,679 Speaker 5: when I found out that they dismissed all the charges 448 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:57,119 Speaker 5: against Rovin. When they found that statement that was with 449 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 5: Hale by the police, and then A decided not to 450 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 5: give me a Dmitri new Trials. That's when I really 451 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:08,920 Speaker 5: was like, if it doesn't work, that evidence that supports 452 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 5: all of your innocence that wasn't presented and didn't make 453 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 5: his way in your trial, if it doesn't work by 454 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,200 Speaker 5: way of truth, then how does the system ever work? 455 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 5: I mean, that's really how I felt. 456 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,640 Speaker 2: I'm like, I thought, Okay, maybe. 457 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 5: Now that they have this statement, they know and they 458 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,919 Speaker 5: all apologize and will come home. Never happened like that, 459 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 5: And I remember, you know, my salemate. I was locked 460 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 5: up old white guy. You know, he was the one 461 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 5: who encouraged me to pick up the pen and start 462 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 5: to write. And essentially it was if you gonna go down, 463 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 5: go down swinging. And I started to write everyone that 464 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,920 Speaker 5: I could think of, and both me and Dmitri were 465 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 5: writing the Innocence Project and everybody we could trying to 466 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 5: figure out how could we get help. 467 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,880 Speaker 3: I was at the time co directing the Wisconsin Innocence Project, 468 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,640 Speaker 3: is a clinical program in which law students handle real 469 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,640 Speaker 3: cases under faculty supervision. And we received these letters from 470 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:08,399 Speaker 3: both Dimitri and Jarrett asking for help and describing what 471 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:13,199 Speaker 3: had happened, and just by happenstance, we got to Dimitri's 472 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 3: letter first, and so I gave it to my students 473 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 3: to do an analysis of the case. And they came 474 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 3: back and they said, this case is outrageous, this guy 475 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,399 Speaker 3: is innocent. We've got to do something about it. And 476 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 3: so we looked at it and we realized that he 477 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 3: had appealed through the state court system and had lost, 478 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,160 Speaker 3: which meant that federal Habeas corpus review was the next 479 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:39,359 Speaker 3: place to look. The problem is, we realized that under 480 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 3: President Bill Clinton, Congress passed and Clinton signed into laws 481 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 3: something known as the Anti Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act. 482 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 3: The acronym is called EDPAT, which made it much more 483 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 3: difficult to obtain federal Habeas corpus relief. And one of 484 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:54,639 Speaker 3: the ways it made it much more difficult was that 485 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 3: it imposed a one year statute of limitations, and by 486 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 3: the time we were able to review Dmitri's case, his 487 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:04,120 Speaker 3: one year had elapsed. He was procedurally barred from going 488 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,399 Speaker 3: into federal habeas. But the student said, but you know, 489 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,439 Speaker 3: his co defendant also wrote. Jared Adams also wrote, and 490 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 3: by pure happenstance, Jarrett and Dmitri's state court appeals had 491 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 3: been handled separately, and Jarrett's appeal had been decided a 492 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 3: short time later than Dmitri's, which means his one year 493 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 3: statue limitations was a little bit later. And by the 494 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,679 Speaker 3: time we were able to review Jared's case, he still 495 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 3: had about a week left before his statue limitations expired. 496 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 3: And so my student said, look, we got to do something. 497 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 3: We've got to file this federal habeas. They drafted the habeas. 498 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,639 Speaker 3: We filed it just before the expiration of the one 499 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 3: year deadline and just got it in under the window, 500 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:48,160 Speaker 3: and we're able to then proceed with litigating that claim. 501 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 3: We were denied relief in the district court in Milwaukee. 502 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 3: We appealed to the United States Court of Appeals for 503 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 3: the Seventh Circuit, and the three judge panel unanimously agreed 504 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 3: that Jared's conviction was invalid. Vag the conviction in June 505 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 3: two thousand and six, and he was finally released from 506 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 3: custody in January of two thousand and seven. This is 507 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 3: how we wind up with three completely different outcomes. Ravine 508 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:15,680 Speaker 3: Hill never convicted Jared's convicted and serves the better part 509 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,440 Speaker 3: of a decade in prison, but then his conviction is vacated, 510 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 3: so he's exonerated. In Dmitri exact same case, exact same facts, 511 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 3: remains convicted of that crime to this day. 512 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it has to live his life with 513 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 1: that sort of scarlet letter or you know, that stigma 514 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 1: for no reason whatsoever. 515 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. 516 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 3: I got to tell you is it is one of 517 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 3: the great sadnesses of my career that we have not 518 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 3: been able to correct this injustice for Dmitri. 519 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,120 Speaker 6: I want to say, my dad actually passed six months 520 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 6: before I got out, and it was one of the 521 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 6: things I wanted him to disturb that moment. 522 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 4: And man, I told you someday I was going to 523 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:56,440 Speaker 4: make it here. 524 00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 6: I wanted him to at least be a part of 525 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 6: that moment, and he wasn't. 526 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 3: So after Jared was exonerated, we were still struggling with 527 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 3: what had happened to Dimitri and said this can't be justice, 528 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 3: and so we thought, well, what in the world can 529 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,160 Speaker 3: we do? We said, you know, there is a longstanding 530 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,919 Speaker 3: doctrine in Wisconsin law that says that circuit courts have 531 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 3: the inherent authority to grant a new trial in the 532 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 3: interest of justice. It's just a broad discretionary granted authority 533 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,160 Speaker 3: and decided, well, if the interest of justice ever called 534 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,439 Speaker 3: for a new trial, this is the case where it 535 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 3: calls for. So we filed a motion on behalf of Dimitri. 536 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 3: Then went back to the same judge who presided over 537 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 3: the conviction and said, look, this can't be justice in America. 538 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 3: To have these wildly disparate outcomes on the same facts 539 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 3: and a federal appellate ruling saying that these guys have 540 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 3: been denied their right to the effective assistance of counsel. 541 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 3: This can't be right. And the trial judge agreed and said, 542 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 3: in the interest of justice, I can't let this conviction stand, 543 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:18,159 Speaker 3: and she reversed Dimitri's conviction, to my great dismay, for 544 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,879 Speaker 3: reasons that I still can't fathom. The state chose to 545 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 3: appeal that decision, and I'm thinking to myself at the time, 546 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 3: on what basis this is a discretionary judgment. Discretionary judgments 547 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 3: are almost bulletproof on appeal because the very nature of 548 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 3: discretion is the judge can do it or cannot do it. 549 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 3: It's up to the judge. And what they actually just 550 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 3: chose to appeal on was to challenge whether the judge 551 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 3: even had the legal authority to grant a neutral and 552 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 3: the interest of justice at all. It went up to 553 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 3: the Supreme Court, and we have now an extremely conservative, 554 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 3: very pro prosecution Supreme Court, and they seized that opportunity, 555 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 3: and in Dmitri's case, they changed the law and ruled 556 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 3: that circuit courts do not have the authority to grant 557 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,959 Speaker 3: a neutrial and the interest of justice. They took that 558 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 3: authority away and thereby reinstated Dmitri's conviction in what I 559 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 3: see as one of the really sad moments in Wisconsin history. 560 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 3: So we tried another tack, and we went back to 561 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 3: the same trial court judge again and said, all right, 562 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 3: you can't vacate the conviction, but you can modify the sentence, 563 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 3: and so please modify Dmitri's sentence to time served so 564 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 3: that at least he can get out of prison. And 565 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 3: to the judge's great credit, she did that, which is 566 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 3: why Dmitri was ultimately set free. But he remains convicted 567 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 3: of a sexual assault and must register as a sex 568 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 3: offender and bear all the burdens that go with being 569 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 3: a convicted felon and a convicted sex offender. 570 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 1: And ultimately he was freed after. 571 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 4: How much time, almost two years. 572 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 1: I must say also that in these two cases of 573 00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 1: Jared and Dimitri, there are a lot of heroes at 574 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 1: the end of the right. I mean, let's not forget 575 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 1: the law student who managed to catch this before it 576 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 1: fell through the cracks. And of course you and your 577 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: whole team at the Wisconsin Innocence Project. We're gonna link 578 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: in the bio to Wisconsin Innocence Project. 579 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 2: Jarrett. 580 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 1: Of course there's you and Dimitri, who are you know, 581 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 1: just sort of pillars of strength and just courageous people 582 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 1: who I think so many of us are inspired by. 583 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 1: And anyone who's new to this cause wants to know 584 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 1: two things. One is, if a prosecutor framed somebody, do 585 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: they face any consequences? And we both know that the 586 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: answer is almost one hundred percent of the time, no, none, whatsoever. 587 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 1: And then they want to know people will tell me, 588 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 1: please tell me the person who went through this got compensation. 589 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 1: And in your case, neither one of you guys got compensation, 590 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 1: which is I mean, you know, it's nuts. 591 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 5: I mean, and Jason, listen, you know, so get compensation. 592 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 5: Dmitry still has it on his record. Right, I'm gonna 593 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 5: give you a quote Thurgood Marshall said that sometimes you 594 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 5: got to just do what is right and let the 595 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 5: law catch up. And that's exactly the reason why I 596 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 5: came home to get this degree to become an attorney, 597 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 5: because I felt like this couldn't just be Jared Adams, 598 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 5: DIMITRIENLEI wrongfully convicted, conviction reverse the end I needed to 599 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 5: carry on to be able to get to this point 600 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 5: where not only do I have the experience of going 601 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 5: through it, but now I'm gaining the experience and I'm 602 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 5: blessing the clients that I come across by helping them 603 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 5: get through it. 604 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: No, and amen to that. It really is inspiring to 605 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,760 Speaker 1: see you out there fighting a good fight and channeling 606 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 1: this awful, this nightmare that you went through into something 607 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: so positive. So now Jared, you're an attorney. You have 608 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 1: offices in New York, Chicago, Los Angeles. I think you 609 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 1: have a book coming out on top of everything else, 610 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 1: which I'm I'm really excited to read. It's called Redeeming Justice. Jared, 611 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 1: if you could just tell us a little bit about 612 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 1: the book. 613 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 5: Right, So, it talks about my journey because what I 614 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 5: didn't want people to think is that I got here alone, 615 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 5: because I didn't get here alone. 616 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 2: I had to help with the community. 617 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 5: I had to help, and the support even of Dmitri 618 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 5: while going through through years of law school. Me and 619 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 5: Dmitri supported each other as well and Keith Finley. The 620 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 5: Wisconsin inisis Project Life After Justice. If you want to 621 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 5: go and support the work support Life After Justice, Support 622 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 5: Center for Forensic Science, which I am a part of 623 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 5: the board SIFTS along with Keith Finley. SIFTS is an 624 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 5: organization that make sure we hold people accountable in terms 625 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 5: of forensic evidence and how it's being used in the 626 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 5: ways in which it should and shouldn't be used. That's 627 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 5: important to people's innocence as well. There are so many 628 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 5: ways to get involved, including holding lawmakers and legislators responsible 629 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 5: for laws such as that book which Keith spoke about, 630 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 5: which is currently keeping Dmitri with this record. There are 631 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 5: ways for us together to help and to right the 632 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 5: wrongs that have been created by bad legislation. Use your voice, 633 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 5: it is key. 634 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: So we're going to have a link to the book 635 00:32:57,520 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 1: and they have a bio as well as a link 636 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 1: for people who want to find out more. And get 637 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: involved with the Center for Integrity and Forensic Sciences support 638 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 1: click the link in the bio We need you. Now 639 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 1: we turn to the closing of the show, which of 640 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 1: course is called Closing Arguments. First of all, I thank 641 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 1: each of you again from the bottom of my heart 642 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 1: for being here, taking your time and sharing your stories. 643 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: Jarrett is just an amazing guy man, and it's great 644 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 1: to have you here. Of course, Dmitri Henley, thanks again 645 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 1: for sharing. I know it's not easy to share your story, 646 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 1: but it's important. And Keith Finley, you know when I 647 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 1: grow up, I want to be you. So what can 648 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 1: I say? And now the closing Arguments works like this, 649 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: I'm going to turn my microphone off and leave each 650 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 1: of yours on for you to share any final thoughts 651 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:45,959 Speaker 1: that you want. You can say nothing or everything or 652 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 1: anything in between. So let's finish the way we started. Professor, 653 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 1: why don't you go first? And then Jarrett and Dmitri? 654 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 2: Yeah? Thanks. 655 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 3: Well, first, let me start by saying thanks to Dmitri 656 00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 3: and Jarrett for being who they are and for having 657 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 3: strength that they have shown to endure all this and 658 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 3: to keep up the fight. It's not over. I don't 659 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 3: know if I could have done what you've done, Jason, 660 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 3: I got to say thank you to you for giving 661 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:12,280 Speaker 3: them a voice, for giving us a voice, for getting 662 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 3: the word out there, for all you've done to support 663 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 3: the movement. It's just vitally important what you're doing here 664 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 3: as well. And I guess the only other thing I'd 665 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,839 Speaker 3: say right now is this case is just a reminder 666 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:25,840 Speaker 3: of so many of the things that are wrong with 667 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 3: our criminal justice system, beginning with the baked in racism 668 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,399 Speaker 3: that I think is just undeniable in a case like this, 669 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 3: to the problems with the way counsel is assigned to 670 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,960 Speaker 3: people who can afford to hire their own lawyers. Too, 671 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 3: as we've seen so strongly here, all of the barriers 672 00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:48,360 Speaker 3: that legislatures, Congress, and the courts are erected to achieving 673 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 3: justice on behalf of the wrongly convicted. We got a 674 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 3: lot of systemic reform we've got to engage in. That's 675 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 3: why programs like this and the work of people like 676 00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 3: Jared Dimitri is so important. 677 00:34:58,880 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 5: Man. 678 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:00,920 Speaker 2: Thank you, Keith, thank you Jason. 679 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,160 Speaker 5: You know, when we were reached out to do this, 680 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:05,239 Speaker 5: I wanted to make sure that all three of us 681 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,759 Speaker 5: was on because we are all three connected. 682 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:09,840 Speaker 2: You know, including Rovinne. 683 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 5: I mean, what many people don't know about Rovine is this, 684 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 5: after Romane's charges were dismissed, Rovinn went to the army, 685 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 5: and the army has its own experiences, both negative and 686 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,359 Speaker 5: positive as well. So it's like he had never talked 687 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,920 Speaker 5: about going to the army. He wanted to escape and 688 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 5: never ever be in a situation like this again, and 689 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 5: that's forever changed his personality as well. And so to 690 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 5: have gone through all of this, three different people, three 691 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,320 Speaker 5: different outcomes, you know, I decided to write this book 692 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,320 Speaker 5: about the journey and about the work that I'm doing 693 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,400 Speaker 5: now and about being able to work alongside of Keith 694 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 5: now and to work and try to figure out how 695 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 5: do we finally get finality in justice for Dimitri's case. 696 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,839 Speaker 5: And the book focuses on what it was like for 697 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 5: me and Dmitri going through it and to have the 698 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 5: opportunity now to speak about it, you know. Compensated. I 699 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:03,360 Speaker 5: didn't get it done. I got out, and I bust 700 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 5: my butt to get to where I am. But I 701 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,600 Speaker 5: believe in sending the elevator back down, which is why, 702 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 5: no matter you know, how or where my career, you. 703 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 2: Know leads me. 704 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 5: I most certainly won't forget those who help me on 705 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,720 Speaker 5: my journey, Keith Finley, the Wisconsin Innocence Project, and also 706 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 5: those who are part of my journey, Dmitri and Jason. 707 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 5: I can't thank you enough. I mean, this is a 708 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 5: huge platform and what it does, I hope you know 709 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,360 Speaker 5: this is this for many people, me and Dmitri included. 710 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 5: This platform gives people for the very first time, to 711 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 5: be the author of their own story because for so long, 712 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 5: the police reports and the false narratives within them have 713 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 5: become the facts of the case. And now because of 714 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,760 Speaker 5: this platform, the record could be set straight. You know, Jason, 715 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 5: you guys are the only podcast that would have me, 716 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 5: Keith and Dmitri telling the story together, and I thank 717 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,279 Speaker 5: you guys for that opportunity. I want people to go 718 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 5: out by the book and support Life After Justice, a 719 00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,719 Speaker 5: nonprofit and also sifts the Center for for Ends the Integrity. 720 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:01,760 Speaker 2: Thank you guys again. 721 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 4: I really appreciate you. 722 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 6: Keith Man, you know, you guys gotten me who I 723 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 6: am right now and I'm. 724 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:09,960 Speaker 4: Very appreciative of that. Thank you again. 725 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:12,879 Speaker 6: Think Wisconsin ANDSCE Project, you know, as well as Jerry, 726 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 6: you know, Jared's my brother forever man, and I'm definitely 727 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,320 Speaker 6: grateful for him, you know, reaching back, and I agree 728 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:19,280 Speaker 6: definitely what he said. 729 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:19,760 Speaker 4: Jason. 730 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:21,719 Speaker 6: You know, we appreciate the opportunity for you giving us 731 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 6: the platform to actually getting our side of the story 732 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:24,919 Speaker 6: out there. 733 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 4: What I can say, you know, talking about this is 734 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:28,040 Speaker 4: just like. 735 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 6: Opening old wounds. You know, this is a story that 736 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 6: I live. It's difficult, it has been difficult. But my 737 00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,120 Speaker 6: whole point of view from the day I got out, 738 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 6: even when I went in, you know, was to have 739 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 6: some hope and I'm going to make the best of 740 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,799 Speaker 6: the situation regardless of what I was going through. I 741 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,959 Speaker 6: do look forward to today that my name is finally clear, 742 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,560 Speaker 6: but you know, until then, I'm going to continue to 743 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:52,919 Speaker 6: live the best life I can and continue to fight 744 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 6: with whatever I have to work with. So again, I 745 00:37:55,680 --> 00:38:02,760 Speaker 6: thank everyone for the opportunity. 746 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,840 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. 747 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,279 Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence organizations and go to the 748 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,840 Speaker 1: links in our bio now to see how you can help. 749 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,359 Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our amazing production team, Connor Hall, 750 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:22,759 Speaker 1: Justin Golden, Jeff Clyburn, and Kevin wardis The music on 751 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,880 Speaker 1: this show, as always, is by three time OSCAR nominated 752 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,440 Speaker 1: composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram 753 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:33,880 Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. 754 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,320 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava 755 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts and association with Sigma Company Number one