Speaker 1: Welcome to Woke AF with me Danielle Moody. Since the
Speaker 1: beginning of the year, I have been bringing you conversations
Speaker 1: with thought leaders and changemakers in art, activism, wellness, and more.
Speaker 1: Starting next week, I'm going to be bringing you five
Speaker 1: new podcasts every single week from Monday through Friday, with
Speaker 1: more of a focus on my own thoughts and perspectives,
Speaker 1: while still sharing taste of my conversation with the amazing
Speaker 1: woke guests I talk with every week on my Patreon,
Speaker 1: which you can always support on patreon dot com slash
Speaker 1: woke AF to get the full Woke AF daily experience.
Speaker 1: To bring to a close these weekly shows, I wanted
Speaker 1: to share my full conversation with Emma Davery, author of
Speaker 1: the new book What White People Can Do Next. It
Speaker 1: is not a book for white people, but about white
Speaker 1: people and the how and why of their creation of
Speaker 1: race as a social construct in order to subjugate non
Speaker 1: white people enforced white supremacy. Our conversation went deep into
Speaker 1: the connection between the construction of race and the system
Speaker 1: of global capitalism, so you'll definitely want to listen closely
Speaker 1: to this half hour conversation. Emma, talk to me about
Speaker 1: what drove you to write this guide for non people
Speaker 1: of color. Okay, so first of all, I would say
Speaker 1: it is posing as a guide for non people of color,
Speaker 1: but that's not what it is. It's something while others
Speaker 1: have actually described it as a as a trojan horse.
Speaker 1: Quite a few of my black friends and peers were
Speaker 1: even a little bit you know side when the book
Speaker 1: was first was first announced. This has been a conversation
Speaker 1: that we've been having, like quite publicly. However, when they
Speaker 1: actually read the book, they were like, no, this book
Speaker 1: was not what I thought it was. And actually there's
Speaker 1: a lot in here for to be honest, like I
Speaker 1: wouldn't have the energy or the inclination to just write
Speaker 1: a guide book to white people to kind of try
Speaker 1: to teach them how to better recognize my humanity, which
Speaker 1: is something I kind of say in the beginning of
Speaker 1: the book. There are things that white people racialized as white,
Speaker 1: can implement that would lead us towards the world we
Speaker 1: need to be trying to create. But there are also
Speaker 1: ways of thinking and engaging and acting that actually everybody
Speaker 1: could implement that there's ways that we can kind of
Speaker 1: shift the ways in which we talk about certain issues
Speaker 1: and the way our solutions to them, You know that
Speaker 1: I think that I think it's powerful for everybody to
Speaker 1: think about. I taught African studies for over ten years
Speaker 1: at a university in the UK, and so I'm actually
Speaker 1: drawing on, you know, some African philosophies. I draw a
Speaker 1: lot on the Black radical tradition. You know, most of
Speaker 1: the sources and literature that I am drawing on and
Speaker 1: that I am grounded in, you know, from African studies
Speaker 1: and from the Black radical tradition, which I think puts
Speaker 1: this book slightly in contrast to a lot of the
Speaker 1: other more recent anti racist titles which are grounded more
Speaker 1: in current articulation of anti racism. That I a mainstream
Speaker 1: kind of anti racism that I'm a little bit critical
Speaker 1: of within the book, shall we say? So, I would
Speaker 1: say that I am located in a different intellectual tradition,
Speaker 1: I guess than a lot of the other anti racist
Speaker 1: literature that is popular at the moment. Do you think,
Speaker 1: you know, because there are so many things that have
Speaker 1: come into our lexicon, anti racism being one of them,
Speaker 1: right like, we have moved at least in the United States,
Speaker 1: and so I would love your thoughts as a person
Speaker 1: being from across the pond in the UK. You know
Speaker 1: how we moved from a place of we just wanted
Speaker 1: to tolerate people, right, then we wanted to accept them.
Speaker 1: Then we moved into a place where no, it's not
Speaker 1: enough to just you know, accept somebody's differences. Now we
Speaker 1: want you to not just not be a racist, right,
Speaker 1: we want you to be anti racist. Do you think
Speaker 1: that this progression is just a progression that is in
Speaker 1: name only? Do you think that it is possible in
Speaker 1: all honesty for someone to be anti racist? So I
Speaker 1: think in our current articulation of the problem, it is
Speaker 1: not possible. One of the things that I was concerned
Speaker 1: with and that I writing against is the fact that
Speaker 1: we are so we're now having finally, we're having this
Speaker 1: like mainstream conversation where racism and anti racism is high
Speaker 1: on the agenda. And yet within that conversation, what I
Speaker 1: felt was absent was the real kind of grappling with
Speaker 1: an understanding of the fact that race is a social construction,
Speaker 1: and that the idea of a white race and subsequently
Speaker 1: a black race was very intentionally created, engineered and kind
Speaker 1: of spread through law and legislation from whence it took
Speaker 1: root and became you know, kind of far more of
Speaker 1: a psychological attachment, but it was done. It's as recent
Speaker 1: as the seventeenth century. The first time we see whiteness
Speaker 1: introduced as the idea of a white race introduced is
Speaker 1: in the colonial Caribbean in Barbados, and quite shortly after
Speaker 1: that we see it in North America in places like Virginia. Sorry,
Speaker 1: and it's from from there. The idea, you know, spreads
Speaker 1: kind of throughout the world. But the reason that it
Speaker 1: is created and invented is explicitly to create and enshrine
Speaker 1: a notion of white superiority and to justify the subjugation
Speaker 1: of African people, people of African descent, that these colonial
Speaker 1: economies are becoming increasingly dependent on. It's in that period
Speaker 1: that we that we start to see all of these
Speaker 1: negative assumptions and ideas being attached to black to people
Speaker 1: who are racialized as black, and until we grapple with
Speaker 1: the real and also this is intimately connected to the
Speaker 1: beginning of the system of global capitalism that we currently
Speaker 1: still live under a version of, and so much of
Speaker 1: the liberal anti racist conversation seems like it's doubling down
Speaker 1: on the truth status of race, rather than grappling with
Speaker 1: the artificial nature of it and really helping people truly
Speaker 1: understand why and when the when and why these categories
Speaker 1: were created. Until we start to be able to see
Speaker 1: outside of race as a biological truth and reality, I
Speaker 1: think it will be impossible to actually have an anti
Speaker 1: racist world. Race as we understand it today was invented
Speaker 1: to justify racism. Until we fully understand that, we will
Speaker 1: continue to we will continue to have racism, you know.
Speaker 1: And again, what I think a lot of the mainstream
Speaker 1: conversation is also devoid of. What tends to be absent
Speaker 1: is that intimacy and that connection between the invention of
Speaker 1: race and capitalism. And so much of the current anti
Speaker 1: racist mainstream liberal discourse does not engage with capitalism. It
Speaker 1: acts as though racism is, you know, kind of occurring
Speaker 1: in a vacuum in which capitalism doesn't exist. So two
Speaker 1: of the things that I really wanted to have central
Speaker 1: in the book were when and why race was invented
Speaker 1: and that relationship between the invention of race and capitalism.
Speaker 1: You know, I think that it's really interesting because the
Speaker 1: reality is, I always go back to a Tony Morrison
Speaker 1: quote that I will butcher, but the essence of it
Speaker 1: being that racism is a distraction, right, and that when
Speaker 1: you are grappling with people to your earlier point, I'm
Speaker 1: not here to convince you of my humanity. Right like that,
Speaker 1: that is no longer a place where I find myself.
Speaker 1: When I was much younger, growing up in eastern Long
Speaker 1: Island in New York, in a ninety six percent white area,
Speaker 1: I had a different sentiment, right, because I just wanted
Speaker 1: to fit in. Right, As I have gotten older and
Speaker 1: thinking to myself, well, why am I sitting here explaining
Speaker 1: myself to you? It is a waste of my energy
Speaker 1: and is a waste of breath. I think. What is
Speaker 1: what I find problematic about where we are is that
Speaker 1: you are presenting a very intellectual and thoughtful argument about
Speaker 1: how we got the way we are, right, about how
Speaker 1: we arrived at this place where we have people literally
Speaker 1: and I have my friend that comes on the show
Speaker 1: all the time who wrote the book Dying of Whiteness.
Speaker 1: That is that we are at a place where around
Speaker 1: the world, not just in the United States, but we
Speaker 1: are dying of whiteness because we refuse to have a
Speaker 1: thoughtful conversation about why race was created in the first place,
Speaker 1: and that to have that conversation absent of the purpose
Speaker 1: of the creation, which was slavery to justify to justify
Speaker 1: the slave t And even now we have politicians in
Speaker 1: that are sitting members of Congress right now that say
Speaker 1: that that slavery wasn't necessary. Evil continue and that will
Speaker 1: continue with that narration. We're fighting right now in twenty
Speaker 1: two states in this country that have banned critical race theory.
Speaker 1: So we can't even get emma to where you want
Speaker 1: us to go because we are we are not even
Speaker 1: allowed to open the book. Is what they is what
Speaker 1: they have created in twenty two states here. And so
Speaker 1: I wonder, you know, at a time when we're still
Speaker 1: trying to convince people of the fact that racism exists,
Speaker 1: that white privilege is a thing, that everything is intertwined
Speaker 1: in this way where we're still it's like I'm trying
Speaker 1: to convince you that the sky is blue and yet
Speaker 1: the earth is on fire. Right, So I can't have
Speaker 1: any more complicated conversation about how we fix anything if
Speaker 1: I have to convince you that it exists. So you know,
Speaker 1: so how you how do you deal with the real
Speaker 1: like that reality. And obviously, I mean, you lay out
Speaker 1: so many things in your book, but I find myself,
Speaker 1: I guess, in this place of hopelessness because if I'm
Speaker 1: still trying to convince you of the thing that we're
Speaker 1: not we're not moving, we're not getting anywhere. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I completely hear that. Like, in many ways, with what
Speaker 1: I was writing, I wanted to create a compelling narrative
Speaker 1: as to why it would be in the best interests
Speaker 1: of most people in the world to actually really interrogate
Speaker 1: whiteness and for people who are racialized as white to
Speaker 1: come to understand that in many ways whiteness was invented
Speaker 1: to hoodwink many of them as well. Come on so
Speaker 1: interesting for me to explore as somebody who grew up
Speaker 1: in Ireland and as a white Irish mother, and Ireland
Speaker 1: has an interesting position in all of this, given that
Speaker 1: I think my early reckoning with racism and my early
Speaker 1: kind of radicalism I would say from a young age
Speaker 1: was in many ways a direct consequence of I spent
Speaker 1: the first I was born in Dublin, but I spent
Speaker 1: the first few years of my life in Atlanta, Georgia.
Speaker 1: My dad was studying at Morehouse. So I went from
Speaker 1: being in a very black environment for the first few
Speaker 1: years of my life to moving to Ireland. Back to
Speaker 1: Ireland in the mid nineteen eighties as a small child
Speaker 1: and being confronted with a very in your face and
Speaker 1: explicit form of racism that I think was actually quite
Speaker 1: quite unusual, I think in other like in the it's
Speaker 1: certainly never something I experienced in Atlanta. And I realized
Speaker 1: that the investment in white supremacy, you know, is far
Speaker 1: more entrenched in the United States than it is in Ireland.
Speaker 1: Yet in Ireland, where there hadn't really been the opportunity
Speaker 1: for the development of an institutionalized of more institutionalized racism
Speaker 1: because of the physical absence of black people or people
Speaker 1: of color from that environment. At that time it was
Speaker 1: like a ninety nine point nine percent country. Attitudes and
Speaker 1: ideas about black people had very much been imported from
Speaker 1: both America and the United States. So I came up
Speaker 1: against that in a very interpersonal and confrontational way from
Speaker 1: a young age, which is what really led me to,
Speaker 1: you know, to a very young interest in black history
Speaker 1: and African studies and whatnot. But I've always been interested
Speaker 1: in that position of the Irish as both colonized because
Speaker 1: Ireland was colonized Britain by England for over eight hundred years,
Speaker 1: so Ireland as both colonized and as colonizer, and the
Speaker 1: way that Irish behaved, many of the Irish behaved when
Speaker 1: they went to the United States fleeing the famine in
Speaker 1: the mid in the mid nineteenth century, their level of
Speaker 1: investment in white supremacy, and rather than having any kind
Speaker 1: of you know, solidarity with black Americans who might have
Speaker 1: imagined there would be a natural sympathy between the two groups,
Speaker 1: there was quite quite the opposite. And you see again
Speaker 1: and again how the Irish, who are not immediately included
Speaker 1: as categorized as white, people who were not at first
Speaker 1: seen as being racialized as white, very much invested in
Speaker 1: the project of white supremacy in order to access the
Speaker 1: material benefits of that. So with that history and mind,
Speaker 1: I was interested in thinking about how the Irish came
Speaker 1: to be racialized as white and how I could kind
Speaker 1: of use that to explore these kind of contradictions and
Speaker 1: diseases which can still exist within whiteness. And I was
Speaker 1: really fascinated to see that or to learn that when
Speaker 1: you see whiteness. First. The idea of a white race
Speaker 1: first introduced, and it's through a series of slave codes
Speaker 1: in colonial Barbados in sixteen sixty one. The first time
Speaker 1: that happens is actually as a reaction against the number
Speaker 1: of uprisings that are happening between indentured Irish and Barbados.
Speaker 1: Indentured Irish and Barbados are not yet raciable. The idea
Speaker 1: of a white category doesn't exist yet. You have indentured
Speaker 1: Irish there, and as they cannot keep up with the
Speaker 1: labor demands, you are beginning to see more and more
Speaker 1: kidnapped Africans being brought into that to that place to
Speaker 1: meet those labor demands. And there a number a series
Speaker 1: of uprisings occur where the indentured Irish and the enslaved Africans,
Speaker 1: who do not yet see themselves as black or white
Speaker 1: people that concept hasn't been created yet, come together to
Speaker 1: attack the English landlords who they both see, who they
Speaker 1: both see as a common enemy. These uprisings are a
Speaker 1: real threat to the status quo and to the power
Speaker 1: balance because there's more, there are more Africans and indentured
Speaker 1: Irish in these in these spaces than there are these
Speaker 1: English and sometimes Scottish elites. So one of the things
Speaker 1: that this legislative concept of whiteness does is it gives
Speaker 1: those indentured Irish so they're still exploited in contrast to
Speaker 1: the other white right, but as provided that they are
Speaker 1: given someone else to exploit, then then they are creating
Speaker 1: a different they're creating a different peer right where they
Speaker 1: are no longer on the bodom exactly exactly. So there's
Speaker 1: a deep investment, you know, in that, and they're also
Speaker 1: dangled the promise, you know, now as white people, you
Speaker 1: two can access these things that the rich elite have,
Speaker 1: you know, and that's so complete an option that's shut
Speaker 1: down to people who become racialized as black. But it
Speaker 1: was so interesting that whiteness, the concept of whiteness, shut
Speaker 1: down those moments of coalition and solidarity which really could
Speaker 1: have upset the whole social order and created just created
Speaker 1: a completely different reality. And then you see the same
Speaker 1: thing happening in colonial Virginia where you have indentured English
Speaker 1: laborers and enslaved Africans again come together. There's a rebellion
Speaker 1: called Bacon's Rebellion, where they also attack the English elite,
Speaker 1: and very shortly after that the law met the English.
Speaker 1: White English lawmakers, who are now kind of understand themselves
Speaker 1: as white, introduce again these slave codes that create a
Speaker 1: situation where people who are now racialized as black have
Speaker 1: no recourse to justice or any sort of human rights,
Speaker 1: and white people who are really quite a motley crew
Speaker 1: of everybody from you know, Scottish, English, Irish, I think
Speaker 1: some Portuguese felons, land lords, a whole range of society
Speaker 1: who have no idea of themselves as am who have
Speaker 1: no concept of themselves as having any kind of shared identity.
Speaker 1: That motley crew becomes reimagined as white people, and even
Speaker 1: those on the lower rungs of that kind of whiteness
Speaker 1: start to see their fates and fortunes far more in
Speaker 1: alignment with other people racialized as white than they do
Speaker 1: with people who are racialized as black, who might actually
Speaker 1: have more kind of circumstantial shared experience of lifestyle with them.
Speaker 1: So whiteness one of the things that does is to
Speaker 1: shut down solidarity and code mission. I mean, I mean
Speaker 1: that that is literally the point, right that is that
Speaker 1: is literally the point is that if you can create
Speaker 1: this stratification of power right, and then you ensure that
Speaker 1: there is always going to be this underclass, what is
Speaker 1: perceived to be this underclass. And we can all agree,
Speaker 1: regardless of what country we are coming from, but we
Speaker 1: can all agree that the black and the brown belong
Speaker 1: on the bottom. Then you can build off of that.
Speaker 1: And I think that what's you know, what is so
Speaker 1: fascinating to me as I'm listening to you weave through
Speaker 1: centuries right of oppression, is that I'm thinking about you know.
Speaker 1: Lyndon B. Johnson said at one time that if you
Speaker 1: can teach the poorest white man that he is better
Speaker 1: than the best negro, then you can pick his pockets.
Speaker 1: That all of this, all of this comes back to
Speaker 1: it being steeped in what capitalism. If we were if
Speaker 1: we were to reimagine a system that wasn't a pyramid scheme,
Speaker 1: because that is how I see it, If we were
Speaker 1: to reimagine a system that was not a pyramid scheme,
Speaker 1: then it would we would recognize that everyone has been bamboozled.
Speaker 1: And that's why and that's why I think that your
Speaker 1: book is so important, because it is the recognition that
Speaker 1: everyone has been bamboozled by whiteness. Right, and that the
Speaker 1: only people, the only people that truly truly benefit are
Speaker 1: the wealthy, are the wealthy white elite, because everyone else,
Speaker 1: to your point, has much more in common in terms
Speaker 1: of just trying to put food on the table, just
Speaker 1: trying to keep their head above water then they do
Speaker 1: with those that they aspire to be. There is something
Speaker 1: in America, and I want to know if you sense
Speaker 1: it elsewhere as well, But there is there is this
Speaker 1: aspirational sense of being right. We don't fix our tax
Speaker 1: codes here because there's this belief that one day you're
Speaker 1: going to hit the lottery and you too will be rich, right,
Speaker 1: and so you want to pay less taxes when that miracle,
Speaker 1: you know, cease to happen. I think about it all
Speaker 1: the time that like for Americans, wealth is this aspirational thing,
Speaker 1: so they will follow whomever. It doesn't matter if they're bright,
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter if they're misogynists or racist like Donald
Speaker 1: Trump it has, it doesn't matter. There is something about
Speaker 1: this this shiny, bright thing of wealth that is like
Speaker 1: a moth to a flame. And I want to know
Speaker 1: if that because unless you can break that kind of hypnotism,
Speaker 1: I don't think that you get anywhere, right, because there's
Speaker 1: a I don't I don't think that you move anywhere.
Speaker 1: And I wonder if you see that same type of
Speaker 1: because I'm not as privian and well versed in international
Speaker 1: thoughts about race and racing. But do you see that
Speaker 1: that's sense of this aspirational desire? Yes, those tendencies are
Speaker 1: certainly amongst us, and they are very much used to
Speaker 1: manipulate people from acting according to their own best interests,
Speaker 1: you know, that idea of aspiration and being able to
Speaker 1: one day achieve the good life. So in this it's
Speaker 1: still voting against the things that would actually make your
Speaker 1: current material conditions better or even livable. However, they are
Speaker 1: not as pronounced here, and again it's different in Ireland
Speaker 1: as they are in the United States. In the United States,
Speaker 1: that tendency seems like turbocharged, you know, like actually far
Speaker 1: more deeply integral to to what America is and means,
Speaker 1: you know. So I think it's more pronounced in the
Speaker 1: United States. It definitely exists here, but I think it's
Speaker 1: yet more potent where you are. Yeah, we've just created
Speaker 1: we've concocted a series of tales in the United States
Speaker 1: that are grounded in white American exceptionalism, right, and this
Speaker 1: idea that you will pull yourself up from your bootstraps,
Speaker 1: that you can you know, you can arrive, you two
Speaker 1: can arrive at this place and it doesn't matter what
Speaker 1: your current reality is. It's living in the fantasy of
Speaker 1: what could be right. And I think that both the
Speaker 1: possibility of the thing right is both what draws people
Speaker 1: to America and also what can make you so disgusted
Speaker 1: with America right, because it's like the dangling of the
Speaker 1: carrot of Oh, there is possibility to have these things
Speaker 1: if you if you clear every single hurdle and obstacle
Speaker 1: that it's placed in your way as a person of color,
Speaker 1: as a woman, as a queer person, as a person
Speaker 1: with disabilities, Like if you can mate around all of this,
Speaker 1: then yes, yes, there's this possibility. Yeah. And also when
Speaker 1: other people are you know, like here in this country,
Speaker 1: I'd say, like inherited wealth is like a really big
Speaker 1: thing as it is in the United States, but there's
Speaker 1: actually like very little social mobility here. So one of
Speaker 1: the things that I talk about in the one of
Speaker 1: the things that I really look at in the book
Speaker 1: actually is again one of my frustrations with the current
Speaker 1: the kind of mainstream liberal iteration of anti racism is
Speaker 1: this almost criticization of interpersonal privilege, often at the expense
Speaker 1: of looking at things like inherited wealth, looking at things like,
Speaker 1: you know, for more structural wealth, power imbalances and types
Speaker 1: of inequalities that exist. So I have a chapter in
Speaker 1: the book that looks at the redistribute. It is called
Speaker 1: redistribute Resources. It thinking about inherited wealth and you know,
Speaker 1: forms of forms of taxation and how black people, and
Speaker 1: again this is more pronounced in the United States, have
Speaker 1: been locked out of opportunity to create wealth and to
Speaker 1: accumulate wealth in an intergenerational way, and to really think,
Speaker 1: to really put our energy towards tackling things like that.
Speaker 1: I talk about things like universal basic income and even reparations,
Speaker 1: and I think our energy would be better placed looking
Speaker 1: at those more structural processes. Then this, as I said,
Speaker 1: almost feticization of interpersonal privilege that just often plays out online.
Speaker 1: I think that's something of a distraction technique. Actually, I mean,
Speaker 1: I think, you know, frankly, all of it is such
Speaker 1: a deep distraction. And I appreciate your writing so much
Speaker 1: because I think that it offers us what we really
Speaker 1: where we should be, right, how we actually get there,
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm fuzzy on it, but you definitely present
Speaker 1: where we should be and how if we have these
Speaker 1: fundamental grapplings of the formation of race, understanding racism, the
Speaker 1: why behind it all, then we can actually begin to
Speaker 1: move forward. But to in this country we are living
Speaker 1: in the midst of I think one of the greatest
Speaker 1: gas lights I have ever seen, right, And it is
Speaker 1: just it is extraordinary the lengths that right wing white
Speaker 1: leaders are going to in this country right now to
Speaker 1: make it seem as if nothing of inequity, nothing of injustice,
Speaker 1: nothing of domestic terrorism ever happened, Right, It's just all
Speaker 1: something that we've made up and we and more so
Speaker 1: we should just get over well. I think the UK
Speaker 1: is very much like taking its que from that at
Speaker 1: the moment. We recently had a report that said, you know,
Speaker 1: institutional racism doesn't exist here and that not only does
Speaker 1: it not exist, but that the UK is actually like
Speaker 1: a global leader in the rest of our world should
Speaker 1: should kind of take their cue from from the UK
Speaker 1: in terms of creating kind of like an anti anti
Speaker 1: racist society. That report has been you know, just widely
Speaker 1: discredited and rubbished, but I think it speaks to the
Speaker 1: level of of gaslighting that is occurring, you know, at
Speaker 1: that level, and it was a remarkable report, the Cwell
Speaker 1: Fewell Report, you know, no engagement with the ongoing legacy
Speaker 1: of empire and colonialism, which you know is really key
Speaker 1: in the conversations that we need to have about race
Speaker 1: in the UK. I think empire. I don't even know
Speaker 1: if the empire is mentioned once in the report. If
Speaker 1: it is, there's certainly no kind of real engagement with it.
Speaker 1: So rather than have a truth for reckoning, you know,
Speaker 1: with what the British Empire meant and why we have
Speaker 1: people of color, black people in the UK, why these
Speaker 1: populations are here, rather than engage with any of that,
Speaker 1: it was just it was just denial and delusion. Really um.
Speaker 1: And then there's the same conversation happening here as well
Speaker 1: about making not allowing critical race studies to Yeah, because
Speaker 1: what would what would happen when the lie is unwoven?
Speaker 1: What would happen when people start to remove rose colored
Speaker 1: glasses and recognize the lies that they have been told
Speaker 1: and who it is hurt and whose life has been
Speaker 1: made better because of it. The fear that we are
Speaker 1: living in right now is palpable in so many the
Speaker 1: fear of the truth right, fear of constructive conversation, fear
Speaker 1: of unpacking and looking at the birth of power and
Speaker 1: who has it and why. And I think that you know,
Speaker 1: more people authors like yourself that continue this conversation, that
Speaker 1: continue to push us forward. They won't be able to
Speaker 1: gasolight us forever because there's just too much there's too
Speaker 1: much conversation that is out there, and there's too many
Speaker 1: people like yourself that are saying no, you know, we're
Speaker 1: going to bring this to light. Emma. I hope that
Speaker 1: you will come back to woke F. This was such
Speaker 1: a wonderful conversation, folks. The book is what white people
Speaker 1: can do next from allyship to coalition. Thank you so
Speaker 1: much for making the time to join us on wok F.
Speaker 1: Hey most welcome. Thank you for having me. Emma's book
Speaker 1: and studies are not so much about promoting anti racism,
Speaker 1: but anti racism as in, we need to be calling
Speaker 1: out and deconstructing the idea of race itself as created
Speaker 1: by white people to enforce their own supremacy over the
Speaker 1: rest of us. We cannot deny our own histories and identities,
Speaker 1: but part of our collective human history is that racial
Speaker 1: identity was created to oppress anybody who is not white,
Speaker 1: and we can even see through history how the definition
Speaker 1: of white has changed to let certain people in and
Speaker 1: keep other people out. As long as our anti racism
Speaker 1: grants that race is something that innately exists rather than
Speaker 1: something that was constructed to systematically disadvantage non white people
Speaker 1: for centuries, will we ever be able to move past
Speaker 1: our racist systems in society. I'm leaving you with that
Speaker 1: very big question to consider as we move forward into
Speaker 1: this week, in which Woke AF will be releasing daily,
Speaker 1: five days a week wherever you get your podcasts. If
Speaker 1: you enjoy my work as always, please do consider supporting
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Speaker 1: continue to bring the woke a f nation, full hour
Speaker 1: long shows, exclusive interviews, video content, and much more Power
Speaker 1: to the people, to all the people. Power, get woke
Speaker 1: and stay woke as fuck.