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Speaker 1: Pushkin admit it. At some point, you probably fantasized about

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Speaker 1: meeting somebody that you really clicked with, and in that fantasy,

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Speaker 1: things are really great. You're into them, they're into you.

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Speaker 1: You get a little jolt of joy every time you

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Speaker 1: see a text from their number. Over time, you start

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Speaker 1: to think, huh, I might love this person, or even

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Speaker 1: this is the human I'm going to spend the rest

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Speaker 1: of my life with. But of course there are some

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Speaker 1: steps you need to go through before it gets to

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Speaker 1: that point.

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Speaker 2: Before that happens, I'm going to have to have a

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Speaker 2: relationship at all. And before that's going to happen, I'm

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Speaker 2: going to have to go on a date. And before

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Speaker 2: that's going to happen, I am going to have to

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Speaker 2: get a date.

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Speaker 1: This is Tim Malnar, a social scientist turned dating coach

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Speaker 1: in Boulder, Colorado. Before Tim became an expert on the

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Speaker 1: science of dating, he was pretty much the opposite I had.

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Speaker 2: I think, up until the age of twenty eight twenty nine,

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Speaker 2: never asked someone out. My initial approach to love was

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Speaker 2: very much based on this idea that love will happen

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Speaker 2: when it happens. I just wasn't very proactive. I was

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Speaker 2: spending a lot of time pursuing self actualization and so

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Speaker 2: trying to make sure that I was getting into the

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Speaker 2: right grad schools. And I was playing soccer over in

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Speaker 2: Europe for a while, learning new languages, doing all of

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Speaker 2: these things that I thought would make me a more

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Speaker 2: interesting partner, and I realized that really wasn't moving the

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Speaker 2: needle forward.

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Speaker 1: So Tim decided to look for love in an unlikely place,

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Speaker 1: the world of behavioral science.

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Speaker 2: I was in a grad program at the time, and

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Speaker 2: I was digging into all this different academic research, these

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Speaker 2: social psychological frameworks, and I thought there must be a

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Speaker 2: way to be able to use these to help myself

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Speaker 2: in dating. And I think there's this commonly used expression

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Speaker 2: in academia that our research is often research, And so

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Speaker 2: I figured that we could use these studies to help

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Speaker 2: me date smarter.

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Speaker 1: And Tim ultimately succeeded in his quest.

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Speaker 2: I met my partner Page at a coffee shop about

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Speaker 2: six years ago.

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Speaker 1: At this point, Tim now wants to share all that

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Speaker 1: he's learned. In fact, he has a new book called

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Speaker 1: Date Smarter, A Strategic Guide to Navigating Modern Romance. In

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Speaker 1: the book, Tim breaks down what the leading research says

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Speaker 1: about finding your life partner. He also gives some practical

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Speaker 1: tips for navigating the messy and often intimidating landscape of

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Speaker 1: modern dating. So stay tuned Happiness Lab listeners, because in

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Speaker 1: a second episode in our series on the Science of Love,

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Speaker 1: Tim and I will explore strategies for meeting someone in

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Speaker 1: real life, the ins and outs of online dating, and

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Speaker 1: how to know when you found the one. That's all

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Speaker 1: coming up after these quick messages from the Happiness Lab sponsors.

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Speaker 1: Behavioral scientist and dating coach Tim Malnar wasn't always an

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Speaker 1: expert on finding love, and that's why he decided to

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Speaker 1: take a scientific approach to the challenges of modern data.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to figure out, is there a way that

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Speaker 2: I can reverse engineer this process, not to guarantee that

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Speaker 2: I'm going to meet this person, but at least to

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Speaker 2: reclaim agency and take actions that are going to improve

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Speaker 2: the probability of that happening.

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Speaker 1: So what was the approach you took to reverse engineering it?

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Speaker 1: What did you look to.

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Speaker 2: I tried to understand at each point in this process,

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Speaker 2: are there certain numbers, Are there certain heuristics that can

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Speaker 2: be helpful for guiding this So, for example, there's this

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Speaker 2: great study out of the University of Copenhagen where the

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Speaker 2: researchers had sent about three hundred and sixty undergrad into

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Speaker 2: the field, and what they found was that on average,

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Speaker 2: men were getting a yes when asking women out about

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Speaker 2: one out of five times. And so I use this

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Speaker 2: twenty percent success rate and that was sort of my

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Speaker 2: guiding path of like.

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Speaker 3: Okay, cool.

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Speaker 2: So if I go out and shoot my shot and

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Speaker 2: this doesn't work, it's actually to be expected, and I

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Speaker 2: can use this rejection as data points to learn maybe

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Speaker 2: what I might do better next time. If we think

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Speaker 2: about our happiness as sort of our expectations minus reality,

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Speaker 2: if I'm expecting to not get a date four out

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Speaker 2: of five times, it builds in a lot more resilience

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Speaker 2: for me.

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Speaker 1: I love this idea of using the actual statistics to

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Speaker 1: build in the resilience. But if your guy looking to

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Speaker 1: ask women out eighty percent of the time, you're going

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Speaker 1: to get rejected. I'm guessing some people hear that stat

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Speaker 1: and they're like, that's terrible, Like I don't want to

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Speaker 1: deal with that. How did you cope with the emotionality

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Speaker 1: that comes with a number that might feel intimidating like that?

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Speaker 2: I think you're right that hearing that there is a

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Speaker 2: higher probability of a failure than success is not always

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Speaker 2: the most encouraging message. But I think the important reframe

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Speaker 2: is a lot of our anxiety comes from uncertainty, and

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Speaker 2: of course there's always going to be uncertainty in dating.

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Speaker 3: We can never avoid that.

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Speaker 2: And I know you'd had Maya Schanka on the podcast

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Speaker 2: number of episodes back, and she was referencing the study

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Speaker 2: where we are more stressed when we have a fifty

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Speaker 2: percent chance of receiving an electric shock as opposed to

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Speaker 2: one hundred percent chance. And knowing these statistics, we still

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Speaker 2: don't have that certainty, but there is comfort in knowing

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Speaker 2: that we will strike out, and so when that happens,

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Speaker 2: we can put certain pieces into place to make ourselves

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Speaker 2: more resilient. For example, we might say, here's someone who

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Speaker 2: who I'd love to go talk to. If this doesn't

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Speaker 2: work out, I'm going to go on a run after this,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to go take a warm bath. I'm going

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Speaker 2: to listen to this music that always makes me feel better.

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Speaker 2: And we have these things in place ahead of time,

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Speaker 2: and having that plan can reduce some of the anxiety

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Speaker 2: that comes with putting ourselves out there.

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Speaker 1: So it seems like it works in at least two ways.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 1: One is it just normalizes it. It's like it's eighty

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Speaker 1: percent probably this is not going to work. I shouldn't

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Speaker 1: freak out whant to hear it. But the second thing

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Speaker 1: I hear you say, which is really important, is if

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Speaker 1: it's really an eighty percent shot that I'm going to

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Speaker 1: get dinged, I gotta have some strategies in place for

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Speaker 1: when that inevitable role probabilistically comes up, like Oh, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to get turned down, I get a call a friend,

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Speaker 1: I have to have some happy music. You build in

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Speaker 1: the resilience as you're going to kind of do better.

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Speaker 1: Another thing I know you've talked about is the idea

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Speaker 1: of having these statistics can shift our focus from outcome

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Speaker 1: to effort. What do you mean there? And why can

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Speaker 1: that be so powerful?

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Speaker 2: The idea of focusing on what's in our control really

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Speaker 2: does improve how we approach dating overall. When we feel

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Speaker 2: like we have some agency over what's transpiring, agency over

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Speaker 2: our actions, this does provide us a good bit of comfort,

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Speaker 2: and so are a lot of different ways that we

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Speaker 2: can think about this happening. But it might be I

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Speaker 2: spend a lot of time working from home, and what's

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Speaker 2: in my control is not necessarily when I meet my partner,

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Speaker 2: but I do have control over deciding. I can work

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Speaker 2: from a coffee shop, and when I go there, I

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Speaker 2: can choose to sit at the community table. I can

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Speaker 2: choose to either do my yoga workout at home, or

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Speaker 2: I can go to class on Tuesday and Thursday. And

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Speaker 2: these are little decision points in our lives where reclaiming

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Speaker 2: little bits of control can provide us a comfort that

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Speaker 2: comes along with that.

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Speaker 1: It's like, well, I'm not, you know, immediately going to

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Speaker 1: get my life partner, but at least I'm taking action.

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Speaker 1: You're kind of always working towards something, You're putting yourself

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Speaker 1: out there. Just that effort can feel really good.

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Speaker 2: One of the frameworks I talk about in the book

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Speaker 2: is this idea of the date number and putting some

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Speaker 2: type of numerical value alongside whatever action is serving as

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Speaker 2: some type of choke point in our dating life. And

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Speaker 2: it should be something that feels like a bit of

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Speaker 2: a stretch. And so maybe that looks like each month,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to try and shoot for four social events,

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Speaker 2: something that is maybe mildly uncomfortable, but really thinking about

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Speaker 2: where am I getting stuck? Do I go on a

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Speaker 2: bunch of first dates and I'm very quick to write

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Speaker 2: people off because of this grass is greener on the

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Speaker 2: next date phenomenon? And if so, can I change and

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Speaker 2: set my date number around this year? I really want

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Speaker 2: to go on twelve second dates and just giving people

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Speaker 2: another shot.

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Speaker 1: So this idea of a date number is just like

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Speaker 1: figuring out a number for the hard thing that you

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Speaker 1: want to do. And it sounded like at first your

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Speaker 1: hard thing was really asking people out, knowing that your

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Speaker 1: statistic was that you're going to get turned down eighty

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Speaker 1: percent of the time. Did you come up with a

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Speaker 1: specific date number for the number of people you're going

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Speaker 1: to ask out when you first started this?

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Speaker 2: I did, And I like to put it was is

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Speaker 2: like we want the math in the happiness lab, right.

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Speaker 2: So I had set one at three hundred three hundred. WHOA,

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Speaker 2: this is overly conservative, and my date number was three

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Speaker 2: hundred asks.

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Speaker 3: But in terms of the number.

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Speaker 2: Of dates that I had budgeted to go on, that

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Speaker 2: would have been sixty dates. Twenty percent. Success rate was

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Speaker 2: building in this big buffer for saying when I go

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Speaker 2: out and try and it doesn't work out, I shouldn't

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Speaker 2: be surprised, and so I think coming in with that

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Speaker 2: understanding really helped me say, like, great, okay, only two

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Speaker 2: hundred ninety nine more. This one didn't work out, Only

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Speaker 2: two hundred ninety eight more.

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Speaker 1: Which is so surprising because in some ways that seems

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Speaker 1: like a really big number. But one of the things we,

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Speaker 1: of course know from the research is that these finite

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Speaker 1: numbers are calming three hundreds of big number. Two hundred

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Speaker 1: ninety nine is a big number, but it's not infinite,

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Speaker 1: and that alone can reduce our anxiety a little bit,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of cool. The other thing is that

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Speaker 1: these larger date numbers are good from a psychological perspective

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Speaker 1: because they do something else that we might need in

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Speaker 1: the dating domain, which is that we're getting exposure to

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Speaker 1: the thing that we find really tough. One of the

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Speaker 1: things I loved about your book is that you compared

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Speaker 1: this idea of doing the hard thing in dating with

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Speaker 1: the kind of exposure therapy that we see in clinical practice.

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Speaker 1: When somebody's trying to get over a phobia, so you're

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Speaker 1: afraid of spiders, you have to expose yourself to this spider,

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Speaker 1: you're afraid of heights, you got to expose yourself to

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Speaker 1: the heights. If we're afraid of the asking out, we've

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Speaker 1: got to expose ourselves to the asking out. So it

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Speaker 1: becomes kind of rote and we get used to it.

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Speaker 2: I think that's right. We can think about having a

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Speaker 2: fear of heights and starting at the second floor and

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Speaker 2: saying this feels a bit out of my comfort zone,

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Speaker 2: and then the next week going up to floor three,

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Speaker 2: floor five, and floor ten and building our way up

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Speaker 2: gradually and dating. There is a very similar parallel to

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Speaker 2: be drawn. Where it was really difficult for me to

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Speaker 2: approach the first person that I did, it was really

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Speaker 2: difficult to approach the last person that It is always

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Speaker 2: a hard thing, but in doing this over and over

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Speaker 2: and over again, there is a comfort that we begin

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Speaker 2: to develop, begin to reckon with this idea of this

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Speaker 2: fear of rejection, like gosh, I shot my shot and

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Speaker 2: this didn't work out and I lived to tell the tale.

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Speaker 2: And one other thing that I would say about the

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Speaker 2: exposure therapy piece is this was something that came out

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Speaker 2: of a therapy practice that I was in and my

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Speaker 2: therapist was trying to help me get to the bottom of,

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Speaker 2: you know, why is this idea of being single so scary?

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Speaker 2: And I would immediately spiral into these Oh it's twenty

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Speaker 2: years into the future and I'm sitting at this choir

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Speaker 2: concert for my sister's nine year old and everyone's coupled

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Speaker 2: and has children, and I'm the butt of the joke. Oh,

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Speaker 2: you know, Tim's just single again and brought up these

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Speaker 2: really uncomfortable feelings for me. And so she's like, you know,

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Speaker 2: just write that on a post note and put in

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Speaker 2: a really conspicuous place in your house. And so I

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Speaker 2: was living with roommates at the time, so I was like, well,

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Speaker 2: refrigerator is probably not the best place for like my deepest,

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Speaker 2: darkest insecurities. But I can put this on my bedside

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Speaker 2: table and still see it a good bit. And over

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Speaker 2: time I'd see this very hyper specific example of like

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Speaker 2: why I thought this was going to be such a

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Speaker 2: scary experience of saying hi to someone in the aisles

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Speaker 2: at Trader Joe's, And actually it was like, no, this

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Speaker 2: is kind of a bit of a jump here to say.

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Speaker 3: If this doesn't go well, then you.

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Speaker 2: Know, I'm going to be at that choir concert twenty

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Speaker 2: years in the future all alone.

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Speaker 1: It's so cool because the exposure really gets you to

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Speaker 1: set these realistic expectations. Again, this is something we know

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Speaker 1: from these clinical therapeutic practices, like oh, the spider's not

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Speaker 1: as bad or the height's not as bad. You're basically

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Speaker 1: teaching yourself that these practices and dating that cause anxiety,

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Speaker 1: they're actually not that bad. But the second thing this

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Speaker 1: big date number gives you is that you're also setting

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Speaker 1: these big goals into something a little bit tinier, which

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Speaker 1: we know from all the researcher on goal setting can

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Speaker 1: be so important, whereas you need three hundred for a

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Speaker 1: life partner, but you might just need sixty for a

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Speaker 1: first date or something like that.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, So one of the things that a framework like

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Speaker 2: this allows you to have is when we develop a plan,

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Speaker 2: it's going to be more effective the more specific we're

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Speaker 2: able to be. So I talk about this idea of

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Speaker 2: implementation intentions in the book, where we're assigning a specific time, place,

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Speaker 2: and behavior to an action that we want to take. So,

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Speaker 2: for example, going back to this idea of going out

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Speaker 2: to four social events in a month, we might get

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Speaker 2: hyper specific and say, on Tuesday at seven pm, I'm

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Speaker 2: going to go to trivia night over at this specific bar,

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Speaker 2: and putting that onto our calendar does a couple things. One,

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Speaker 2: we have to opt out of a plan that has

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Speaker 2: already been made, which we know from the research makes

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Speaker 2: much more effective follow through. We see that and everything

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Speaker 2: from donating organs to things like automatic retirement savings and

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Speaker 2: so that is very powerful in and of itself having

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Speaker 2: on the calendar. Something else that allows us to do

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Speaker 2: is then implement other accountability mechan So I talk about

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Speaker 2: getting something I call a date mate, basically just your

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Speaker 2: accountability buddy. And I think anybody who's tried to have

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Speaker 2: like an early morning I'm going to go to the gym,

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Speaker 2: it's a lot easier to make that six am workout

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Speaker 2: happen if you're meeting someone there.

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Speaker 3: I might just bail on myself. I'm probably not going

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Speaker 3: to bail on my friend.

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Speaker 2: So with the date mat, this could be someone that

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Speaker 2: we check in with once a week and they know

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Speaker 2: you were planning to try and go out to that

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Speaker 2: trivia night this week. Did you end up making that happen.

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Speaker 2: It's not meant to cause any shame if it didn't happen.

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Speaker 2: But the idea is that when we're accountable to somebody else,

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Speaker 2: we're more likely to take those actions that improve our

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Speaker 2: probability for success.

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Speaker 3: Here.

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Speaker 1: It's so interesting because I think when you first hear

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Speaker 1: this idea of a date matit, you might assume this

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Speaker 1: is more like a wingman, like that's the person who's

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Speaker 1: supposed to go with you to a trivia night and

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Speaker 1: kind of talk to the person for you. But what

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Speaker 1: you mean more is like the person you're checking in

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Speaker 1: with to make sure that you're following through on the

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Speaker 1: plans that you decided for yourself.

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Speaker 2: It's funny that you bring that up about heading out

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Speaker 2: to an event with someone else. I was running a

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Speaker 2: dating workshop over the weekend and someone had raised their hand.

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Speaker 2: They're like, hey, you know, I struggled to get out

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Speaker 2: of the house, and it's easier if I go with

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Speaker 2: a friend. Is it possible if people will still like,

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Speaker 2: come say hi to me if I'm with someone else.

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Speaker 2: And one of the guys just jumps and he's like,

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Speaker 2: I would never feel comfortable approaching someone. And I was

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Speaker 2: looking back on my own dating life and just sort

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Speaker 2: of reflecting on this question and thinking that I'd probably

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Speaker 2: approached somewhere in the ballpark of seventy eighty people over

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Speaker 2: a multiple year time horizon, and one of those times

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Speaker 2: I had approached someone who is with someone else, Which

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Speaker 2: is not to say that it's an impossibility, but it

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Speaker 2: does make it more difficult. And certainly if it helps

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Speaker 2: you get out of the house, it's great to have

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Speaker 2: that person, but then just realize it.

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Speaker 1: But then ditch them, go sit somewhere else. Yeah, exactly, Okay,

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Speaker 1: So hopefully listeners who are interested in finding their partner

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Speaker 1: are hearing this and saying, oh, date number. It fits

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Speaker 1: with the behavioral science. If someone's thinking that, what's their

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Speaker 1: first step to determining their own date number? What advice

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Speaker 1: do you have?

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Speaker 3: Getting clear on where we're getting stuck?

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Speaker 2: And this can be something that's difficult to do because

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Speaker 2: by definition, when we have a blind spot, it is

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Speaker 2: something that we don't see.

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Speaker 3: So it could be.

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Speaker 2: We might text a few people who know us well,

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Speaker 2: ask a therapist, as family members, someone who will give

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Speaker 2: us an honest opinion. Hey, why do you think I'm single?

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Speaker 2: What do you think is really holding me back right now?

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Speaker 2: It's a tough question to ask. Is vulnerable, but there

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Speaker 2: can be a lot of power in getting that feedback.

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Speaker 2: And then if they're saying you're swiping and swiping and swiping,

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Speaker 2: you're messaging, you're rarely meeting up, and it makes sense

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Speaker 2: that you're among the seventy eight percent of online daters

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Speaker 2: who report experiencing burnout. And then if that's the case,

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Speaker 2: then we can take tangible actions for saying like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: maybe I want to try more of an in real

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Speaker 2: life approach. What does that look like? So the first

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Speaker 2: step is yeah, like you said, really getting clear on

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Speaker 2: what you're doing, and then coming up with some type

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Speaker 2: of number around that goal that feels like it's going

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Speaker 2: to push you without leading to burnout.

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Speaker 3: Here.

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Speaker 1: So, now that you've got a plan to step out

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Speaker 1: of your comfort zone, the next question is where do

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Speaker 1: you actually meet people with real relationship potential on dating

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Speaker 1: apps and bars, in the checkout line at dunkin Donuts?

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Speaker 1: And what actually makes a first date good. We'll tackle

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Speaker 1: all that and more when the Happiness Lab returns from

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Speaker 1: this quick break. Dating coach and behavioral scientist Tim Malnar

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Speaker 1: is on a mission to make the process of finding

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Speaker 1: love in the modern world a bit easier, and one

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Speaker 1: of his more controversial suggestions is that we're better off

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Speaker 1: looking for love in real life not online. In fact,

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Speaker 1: Tim has argued there are lots of psychological reasons that

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Speaker 1: dating apps tend to us astray.

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Speaker 2: Our brains are not designed to be able to make

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Speaker 2: sense of lots and lots of options. So we know

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Speaker 2: this from work from folks like Barry Schwartz that this

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Speaker 2: idea of paradox of choice is we get overloaded and

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Speaker 2: we're not able to make those value the line decisions.

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Speaker 2: So you can think about going out to the cheesecake

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Speaker 2: factory and you have like two hundred and twenty five

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Speaker 2: options on the menu, and you're like, I don't know,

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Speaker 2: should they get like the Cajun jumbalayapasta or you know,

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Speaker 2: the other whatever. And it's much easier for us when

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Speaker 2: we go to a nice restaurant we have six to

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Speaker 2: eight choices, and we're like great. When we enter the

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Speaker 2: online dating world and we have limitless options, or this

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Speaker 2: perception of limitless options, we experience a sense of overwhelm.

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Speaker 2: And I remember being on a date, probably at seven

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Speaker 2: or eight years back at this point, and we were

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Speaker 2: thirty minutes into dinner and things were going really well,

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Speaker 2: and I was kind of teasing, and we're like, gosh, like,

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Speaker 2: why did it take so long for us to meet up?

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Speaker 3: This has been great? And I remember she pulled out

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Speaker 3: her app.

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Speaker 2: And she went to the section where it had active

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Speaker 2: messages and just said nine to nine to nine plus.

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Speaker 2: So she'd received over one thousand messages from people, and

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Speaker 2: so it didn't matter like, oh, man, was that the

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Speaker 2: right thing to text? Maybe that wasn't funny enough, maybe

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Speaker 2: it wasn't unique enough. No, this is just a choice

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Speaker 2: overload problem. Voter Choice is great research on this, where

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Speaker 2: we see when we have a ballot that has lots

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Speaker 2: and lots of options, it's very difficult for us to

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Speaker 2: actually make choices that are aligned with the political values

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Speaker 2: that we hold. And when that gets down into six

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Speaker 2: to eight range, that's a pretty comfortable decision making range.

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Speaker 2: And so what some of the apps Hinges a good example,

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Speaker 2: have started to do is they'll say, if you have

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Speaker 2: more than x ongoing conversations, we're not going to allow

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Speaker 2: you to continue to swipe, because we know that's not

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Speaker 2: productive for what we're trying to do here.

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Speaker 1: So it seems like some of the apps try to help.

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Speaker 1: But then sometimes apps have features that we to try

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Speaker 1: to narrow down the playing field, and then that messes

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Speaker 1: us up. I mean, one thing we talk about a

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Speaker 1: lot on the Happiness lab is we have no idea

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Speaker 1: about the kinds of things that will make us happy,

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Speaker 1: and I think that that's definitely true in the dating domain.

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Speaker 1: We just have all these predictions about the kinds of

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Speaker 1: things we want in a partner, but we're often wrong.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things I'm struck by is that

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Speaker 1: in your book you talked about how you and your

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Speaker 1: wife were on the same dating app at the same time,

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Speaker 1: but you didn't ever see each other because you had

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Speaker 1: filters on that filtered each other out, which I found

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Speaker 1: so striking.

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Speaker 3: I love this story. I think it's a perfect example.

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Speaker 2: I was two years outside of Page's age filter, and

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Speaker 2: we were talking a number of months into dating. We're like, gosh, oh,

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Speaker 2: so you were unlike jein Bumble as well. You know,

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Speaker 2: we're living a mile of part I wonder when we

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Speaker 2: had to come across each other and we were going

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Speaker 2: through all the filters that we had set, like we

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Speaker 2: wouldn't have not online anyway, And it is, like you said,

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Speaker 2: it's something where we have this false sense of I

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Speaker 2: have control over this. I can filter for someone who's

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Speaker 2: over six feet tall, I can filter for someone who

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Speaker 2: is this religion. I can filter for someone who has

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Speaker 2: these drug and alcohol preferences. And yet the whole time

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Speaker 2: we're filling in the blanks of the story of who

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Speaker 2: we think we're going to be meeting up with. This

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Speaker 2: person says that they're religious. Are they going to be

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Speaker 2: the person who's in the front pew every Sunday? Or

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Speaker 2: is this someone who maybe they celebrate Christmas nic go

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Speaker 2: once a year and like that's what being religious means

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Speaker 2: to them. And so we're creating these ideas that often

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Speaker 2: turn out not to be true, and the filters can

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Speaker 2: be highly destructive for finding out what we actually want

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Speaker 2: and recognizing some of those qualities. You know, there's not

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Speaker 2: a filter to turn on to say how kind am I?

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Speaker 3: How loyal am I?

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Speaker 2: What's my level of trustworthiness? And I think that they

438
00:21:53,636 --> 00:21:56,396
Speaker 2: really do steer us wrong in that department, So.

439
00:21:56,316 --> 00:21:58,236
Speaker 1: That abs are steering us wrong. We should commit to

440
00:21:58,236 --> 00:22:01,076
Speaker 1: meeting people in real life, but where should we think

441
00:22:01,076 --> 00:22:03,396
Speaker 1: about going to meet a new partner in person?

442
00:22:04,156 --> 00:22:06,196
Speaker 2: I would start by saying that I don't think we

443
00:22:06,236 --> 00:22:10,556
Speaker 2: should ever head out to places just for the idea

444
00:22:10,796 --> 00:22:13,876
Speaker 2: of I'm going to meet someone here who's going to

445
00:22:13,876 --> 00:22:17,356
Speaker 2: be my future romantic partner. It puts far too much

446
00:22:17,396 --> 00:22:21,956
Speaker 2: pressure on the situation, and it creates strong likelihood that

447
00:22:21,996 --> 00:22:25,236
Speaker 2: we're going to be disappointed instead. I think there's this

448
00:22:25,396 --> 00:22:29,396
Speaker 2: matrix of is this something that I'm genuinely going to enjoy?

449
00:22:29,476 --> 00:22:34,076
Speaker 2: If I head out to that Saturday morning trail maintenance crew,

450
00:22:34,636 --> 00:22:37,236
Speaker 2: I'm probably going to get some fresh air. I'm probably

451
00:22:37,236 --> 00:22:39,196
Speaker 2: going to meet some people who are kind and generous

452
00:22:39,196 --> 00:22:42,556
Speaker 2: and who volunteer their time. Maybe I happen to meet

453
00:22:42,636 --> 00:22:44,916
Speaker 2: someone who's a good friend. Maybe I happen to meet

454
00:22:44,916 --> 00:22:47,476
Speaker 2: someone who ends up being a future matchmaker. Maybe I

455
00:22:47,516 --> 00:22:49,796
Speaker 2: meet someone who ends up being my life partner. But

456
00:22:50,156 --> 00:22:52,956
Speaker 2: it is really important to focus on those types of

457
00:22:52,996 --> 00:22:56,476
Speaker 2: places that we're genuinely looking to have a good time at.

458
00:22:56,756 --> 00:23:00,236
Speaker 2: And I think there's also this idea of what's the

459
00:23:00,276 --> 00:23:02,196
Speaker 2: likelihood that I'm going to have a conversation. So if

460
00:23:02,196 --> 00:23:03,636
Speaker 2: I go to a concert, there are a lot of

461
00:23:03,716 --> 00:23:06,756
Speaker 2: people there, but there's not a super high probability that

462
00:23:06,796 --> 00:23:09,036
Speaker 2: I'm going to be having a conversation. If I go

463
00:23:09,356 --> 00:23:12,636
Speaker 2: to a book club by definition, there's a curated group

464
00:23:12,676 --> 00:23:16,156
Speaker 2: of people who are designed to be talking and interacting

465
00:23:16,196 --> 00:23:19,636
Speaker 2: with one another, and so being thoughtful about am I

466
00:23:19,676 --> 00:23:21,716
Speaker 2: going to have a good time here? Is there high

467
00:23:21,796 --> 00:23:24,716
Speaker 2: likelihood that they're going to be different people here? And

468
00:23:24,916 --> 00:23:28,516
Speaker 2: will I likely interact with them? Those are good filters

469
00:23:28,716 --> 00:23:31,316
Speaker 2: as it were, to be able to begin thinking about

470
00:23:31,356 --> 00:23:33,676
Speaker 2: where we might head out to meet people in real life.

471
00:23:33,916 --> 00:23:35,716
Speaker 1: Okay, so we're at the spot that we're going to

472
00:23:35,756 --> 00:23:37,876
Speaker 1: have a good time, we can have a conversation. There's

473
00:23:37,876 --> 00:23:40,836
Speaker 1: somebody we might be interested in talking to. What's the

474
00:23:40,876 --> 00:23:43,036
Speaker 1: next step? Do we go with a goofy pickup line?

475
00:23:43,116 --> 00:23:43,796
Speaker 1: How does it work?

476
00:23:45,556 --> 00:23:46,836
Speaker 3: There are a number of different approaches.

477
00:23:46,916 --> 00:23:49,636
Speaker 2: One of my favorite is called the foot in the

478
00:23:49,636 --> 00:23:54,396
Speaker 2: door approach, and it comes from the old business adage

479
00:23:54,596 --> 00:23:57,236
Speaker 2: where if we wanted to sell something, if we could

480
00:23:57,276 --> 00:23:59,436
Speaker 2: get like a literal or figurative foot in the door,

481
00:24:00,036 --> 00:24:03,396
Speaker 2: we've crossed over this threshold and now we're more likely

482
00:24:03,436 --> 00:24:06,396
Speaker 2: to close the sale. And so in the dating context,

483
00:24:06,876 --> 00:24:11,316
Speaker 2: there's research on this idea of if we first open

484
00:24:11,396 --> 00:24:15,716
Speaker 2: with a small favor, something like hey, I'm looking for directions,

485
00:24:15,916 --> 00:24:17,796
Speaker 2: or like can I have a light for my cigarette?

486
00:24:17,916 --> 00:24:21,636
Speaker 2: When people open with this small favor first before going

487
00:24:21,676 --> 00:24:24,556
Speaker 2: into and I'd love to grab a coffee sometime, They're

488
00:24:24,596 --> 00:24:28,196
Speaker 2: five times more likely to get a yes. And so

489
00:24:28,276 --> 00:24:30,756
Speaker 2: that can look like a lot of different things in

490
00:24:30,796 --> 00:24:33,556
Speaker 2: real life. Going back to the coffee shop example, you're

491
00:24:33,596 --> 00:24:35,796
Speaker 2: sitting at the community table, you need to go to

492
00:24:35,836 --> 00:24:37,876
Speaker 2: the bathroom, and you turn to the person next to

493
00:24:37,876 --> 00:24:39,916
Speaker 2: you and just say, hey, do you mind watching my

494
00:24:39,956 --> 00:24:42,556
Speaker 2: stuff while I go to the bathroom. It's a pretty

495
00:24:42,596 --> 00:24:46,476
Speaker 2: low stakes thing to say. And then we come back like, hey,

496
00:24:46,756 --> 00:24:49,396
Speaker 2: thanks so much, you working on anything fun today? But

497
00:24:49,516 --> 00:24:53,516
Speaker 2: now that I've had that initial conversation, that initial touch point,

498
00:24:53,676 --> 00:24:55,556
Speaker 2: it's much more likely that if I later say, like,

499
00:24:55,636 --> 00:24:57,156
Speaker 2: you just have like a really good smile and good

500
00:24:57,236 --> 00:24:59,156
Speaker 2: energy about you and be really fun to go for

501
00:24:59,156 --> 00:25:01,596
Speaker 2: a walk, would you be out for that sometime, our

502
00:25:01,636 --> 00:25:03,196
Speaker 2: probability is much higher.

503
00:25:03,516 --> 00:25:06,156
Speaker 1: When you're talking about this, this sounds so easy, But when

504
00:25:06,196 --> 00:25:07,716
Speaker 1: I talk to the young people I work with, like

505
00:25:07,756 --> 00:25:10,196
Speaker 1: my Yale students, they would describe and act like that

506
00:25:10,316 --> 00:25:13,916
Speaker 1: is incredibly anxiety provoking. And I think that it's true.

507
00:25:13,996 --> 00:25:16,156
Speaker 1: These days, we just have more friction for these quick

508
00:25:16,236 --> 00:25:18,476
Speaker 1: conversations with people, in part because we're on our phones

509
00:25:18,476 --> 00:25:20,716
Speaker 1: all the time, and that means when we're first starting out,

510
00:25:20,756 --> 00:25:22,836
Speaker 1: we do kind of experience a little anxiety when we're

511
00:25:22,836 --> 00:25:25,556
Speaker 1: trying to do this. So any tips for regulating the

512
00:25:25,556 --> 00:25:28,196
Speaker 1: anxiety when you were doing these light icebreakers.

513
00:25:28,756 --> 00:25:30,516
Speaker 2: Yes, I don't want to talk about these things as

514
00:25:30,516 --> 00:25:33,156
Speaker 2: if it's easy. It was never easy for me. Speaking

515
00:25:33,236 --> 00:25:38,036
Speaker 2: from personal experience, it did get easier and understanding some

516
00:25:38,156 --> 00:25:40,116
Speaker 2: of the research. Nick Appley does a lot of great

517
00:25:40,116 --> 00:25:43,756
Speaker 2: research on this at the University Chicago, and the upshot

518
00:25:43,756 --> 00:25:47,716
Speaker 2: of a lot of his findings are people enjoy being

519
00:25:47,756 --> 00:25:49,996
Speaker 2: talked to a lot more than we think, a lot

520
00:25:50,036 --> 00:25:53,076
Speaker 2: more than they think, and we enjoy those conversations a

521
00:25:53,116 --> 00:25:57,676
Speaker 2: lot more as well. So for me as academic, that's

522
00:25:57,676 --> 00:26:00,076
Speaker 2: something that did give me a good degree of comfort,

523
00:26:00,436 --> 00:26:05,836
Speaker 2: but also just creating some of these opportunity of response mechanisms.

524
00:26:06,236 --> 00:26:09,596
Speaker 2: A good example, I met my partner Page at a

525
00:26:10,236 --> 00:26:14,316
Speaker 2: coffee shop and I really want an excuse to come

526
00:26:14,396 --> 00:26:17,796
Speaker 2: up and talk to her, And I went over and

527
00:26:17,796 --> 00:26:19,396
Speaker 2: I said, like, Hey, do you mind if I plug

528
00:26:19,476 --> 00:26:24,276
Speaker 2: in my laptop here? That didn't feel like a crazy

529
00:26:24,316 --> 00:26:26,796
Speaker 2: thing to say, It was still hard. There was still

530
00:26:26,836 --> 00:26:30,436
Speaker 2: like a level of anxiety, but understanding the social context

531
00:26:30,556 --> 00:26:32,836
Speaker 2: that this is a normal thing to do within a

532
00:26:33,316 --> 00:26:35,676
Speaker 2: coffee shop. I would often do this whether or not

533
00:26:35,716 --> 00:26:37,796
Speaker 2: I was interested in someone, Like, my battery is running low,

534
00:26:37,956 --> 00:26:38,716
Speaker 2: I need an outlet.

535
00:26:38,876 --> 00:26:41,636
Speaker 3: You're buy an outlet. This is a convenient option.

536
00:26:42,156 --> 00:26:45,236
Speaker 2: So one thing I think is just having a rough

537
00:26:45,276 --> 00:26:47,276
Speaker 2: idea of like, here's something I might say, and then

538
00:26:47,636 --> 00:26:50,636
Speaker 2: if this doesn't go the way that I hoped, what

539
00:26:50,756 --> 00:26:55,156
Speaker 2: can I do to elegantly gracefully extract myself from the situation.

540
00:26:55,556 --> 00:26:57,436
Speaker 2: You know, Hey, no worries, hope you have a great

541
00:26:57,436 --> 00:27:00,116
Speaker 2: rest of your day, And just understanding that, like I

542
00:27:00,156 --> 00:27:02,076
Speaker 2: can get myself out of this situation in a way

543
00:27:02,076 --> 00:27:05,036
Speaker 2: that leaves them feeling respected and leaves me with my

544
00:27:05,116 --> 00:27:07,836
Speaker 2: dignity intact as well, and then having those lists of

545
00:27:07,876 --> 00:27:09,596
Speaker 2: things that make you feel better at the already, like

546
00:27:09,876 --> 00:27:11,316
Speaker 2: get on the phone with my friend right now.

547
00:27:11,876 --> 00:27:14,156
Speaker 1: You also are big on making sure that you can

548
00:27:14,196 --> 00:27:16,796
Speaker 1: be the one that receives conversation from someone else that

549
00:27:16,836 --> 00:27:18,796
Speaker 1: you're doing something that allows you to seem a little

550
00:27:18,836 --> 00:27:19,796
Speaker 1: bit more approachable.

551
00:27:20,196 --> 00:27:23,316
Speaker 2: What sort of behavior does that entail? There are different

552
00:27:23,316 --> 00:27:26,436
Speaker 2: ways to do this. Some of my favorites are giving

553
00:27:26,596 --> 00:27:30,396
Speaker 2: people something easy to comment on. And so one way

554
00:27:30,396 --> 00:27:35,076
Speaker 2: we might think about doing that is putting certain stickers

555
00:27:35,236 --> 00:27:36,996
Speaker 2: on the back of a laptop and the back of

556
00:27:36,996 --> 00:27:39,556
Speaker 2: a water bottle, and someone can come up and see

557
00:27:39,556 --> 00:27:41,396
Speaker 2: your Bryce Canyon sticker and be like, oh my gosh,

558
00:27:41,436 --> 00:27:43,916
Speaker 2: you've been a Bryce Canyon. Another thing could be you

559
00:27:43,916 --> 00:27:46,676
Speaker 2: know something that you're wearing. Maybe you're a big Patriots

560
00:27:46,676 --> 00:27:50,076
Speaker 2: fan and you have your Patriots shirt on, or your

561
00:27:50,076 --> 00:27:52,716
Speaker 2: Patriots mug or whatever it might be. It's an easy

562
00:27:52,756 --> 00:27:55,396
Speaker 2: conversation piece for people to make a quick comment on

563
00:27:55,436 --> 00:27:57,836
Speaker 2: the game, to make a quick comment on their favorite players.

564
00:27:58,236 --> 00:28:00,996
Speaker 2: And so if we're not as comfortable approaching other people,

565
00:28:00,996 --> 00:28:04,076
Speaker 2: which I think is very very common today, we can

566
00:28:04,076 --> 00:28:06,996
Speaker 2: make it slightly easier for other people to approach us.

567
00:28:07,196 --> 00:28:10,356
Speaker 2: And part of that is being ready and willing to

568
00:28:10,396 --> 00:28:13,196
Speaker 2: receive that. It's like if I have noise canceling headphones,

569
00:28:13,436 --> 00:28:16,036
Speaker 2: people are much less likely to approach me than if

570
00:28:16,076 --> 00:28:18,556
Speaker 2: I'm just sitting glancing up every once in a while,

571
00:28:18,956 --> 00:28:22,316
Speaker 2: sit it at a community table. Context helps drive that

572
00:28:22,396 --> 00:28:23,436
Speaker 2: approachability piece.

573
00:28:24,116 --> 00:28:26,556
Speaker 1: So far, we've heard Tim's suggestions for meeting people in

574
00:28:26,596 --> 00:28:29,276
Speaker 1: real life, but what if you're still attached to those

575
00:28:29,276 --> 00:28:32,916
Speaker 1: online dating apps, Are there actually effective ways to use them?

576
00:28:33,236 --> 00:28:35,036
Speaker 1: And how do you know when it's time to stop

577
00:28:35,036 --> 00:28:38,236
Speaker 1: swiping and commit. We'll get into Tim's tips for online

578
00:28:38,316 --> 00:28:55,596
Speaker 1: dating when the Happiness Lab returns from the break. Social

579
00:28:55,596 --> 00:28:58,916
Speaker 1: Scientists Turn Dating coach Tim Malnar is a big advocate

580
00:28:58,956 --> 00:29:01,796
Speaker 1: for meeting people in real life, but he also knows

581
00:29:01,836 --> 00:29:04,836
Speaker 1: that dating apps can help you find your person if

582
00:29:04,956 --> 00:29:07,516
Speaker 1: you use them wisely. So I asked Tim to share

583
00:29:07,556 --> 00:29:10,956
Speaker 1: his best practices, starting with what the science says about

584
00:29:10,996 --> 00:29:12,436
Speaker 1: choosing your profile picture.

585
00:29:12,796 --> 00:29:15,116
Speaker 2: It's really helpful when we're going through setting up a

586
00:29:15,156 --> 00:29:18,036
Speaker 2: profile to put yourself in the place of someone who's

587
00:29:18,076 --> 00:29:21,636
Speaker 2: going through this on the other end, and to understand

588
00:29:22,236 --> 00:29:24,916
Speaker 2: I might not make it past the first picture if

589
00:29:25,116 --> 00:29:27,156
Speaker 2: this doesn't seem like it's something that's interesting to me.

590
00:29:27,276 --> 00:29:30,556
Speaker 2: So some of those things with respect to choosing best pictures,

591
00:29:30,876 --> 00:29:34,636
Speaker 2: candid pictures perform very well, so these receive about fifteen

592
00:29:34,636 --> 00:29:38,876
Speaker 2: percent more likes. We also know that beach shots aren't

593
00:29:38,916 --> 00:29:42,236
Speaker 2: performing very well, so women who have beach photos get

594
00:29:42,236 --> 00:29:45,956
Speaker 2: forty seven percent fewer likes on these men get eighty

595
00:29:45,996 --> 00:29:46,876
Speaker 2: percent fewer likes.

596
00:29:47,036 --> 00:29:49,236
Speaker 1: That seems weird because I think my stereotype is like,

597
00:29:49,316 --> 00:29:51,196
Speaker 1: showing off your body is a good thing, but people

598
00:29:51,316 --> 00:29:52,196
Speaker 1: seem not to like that.

599
00:29:52,196 --> 00:29:55,916
Speaker 2: That's incredible. Yeah, it's an interesting one. Another one that

600
00:29:55,996 --> 00:29:57,636
Speaker 2: for me was surprising when I was digging into this

601
00:29:57,676 --> 00:30:01,676
Speaker 2: research was that black and white photos actually perform very well.

602
00:30:02,036 --> 00:30:05,796
Speaker 2: They perform better than color photos. In general, They're about

603
00:30:05,836 --> 00:30:09,596
Speaker 2: twice as likely to get a positive swipe. Maybe less

604
00:30:09,596 --> 00:30:14,076
Speaker 2: surprising is smiling, having that like open posture, not being

605
00:30:14,156 --> 00:30:17,476
Speaker 2: with someone who could be perceived as a significant other.

606
00:30:17,516 --> 00:30:20,276
Speaker 2: And this might seem like an obvious one. You're like, oh, well,

607
00:30:20,276 --> 00:30:21,996
Speaker 2: like I know this is my sister. Clearly they're going

608
00:30:22,076 --> 00:30:23,916
Speaker 2: to know this is my sister too. It's like we

609
00:30:24,036 --> 00:30:26,196
Speaker 2: probably wouldn't know that, you know. Going back to that

610
00:30:26,236 --> 00:30:29,436
Speaker 2: putting yourself in their shoes piece, what about selfies? How

611
00:30:29,476 --> 00:30:32,796
Speaker 2: do those do selvies do not do well, particularly mirror

612
00:30:32,876 --> 00:30:37,196
Speaker 2: based selfies. And so if you are able to have

613
00:30:37,276 --> 00:30:39,796
Speaker 2: a friend do a quick photo shoot. This is one

614
00:30:39,836 --> 00:30:44,396
Speaker 2: of those very high leverage moments with respect to online dating.

615
00:30:44,876 --> 00:30:47,356
Speaker 3: Talk in the book about this idea of.

616
00:30:47,276 --> 00:30:51,436
Speaker 2: The preto principle, this eighty twenty rule where twenty percent

617
00:30:51,516 --> 00:30:54,196
Speaker 2: of our actions often get eighty percent of the results,

618
00:30:54,276 --> 00:30:56,596
Speaker 2: and then the other eighty percent of our actions are

619
00:30:56,596 --> 00:31:01,036
Speaker 2: aimed at remaining twenty percent there. So in dating, this

620
00:31:01,076 --> 00:31:05,596
Speaker 2: can look like asking a friend for a quick photo shoot.

621
00:31:05,796 --> 00:31:08,476
Speaker 2: It can also look like sending a text message out

622
00:31:08,516 --> 00:31:12,076
Speaker 2: to some friends and saying, Hey, I'm getting pretty serious

623
00:31:12,116 --> 00:31:14,636
Speaker 2: about dating right now. If you happen to meet anyone

624
00:31:14,716 --> 00:31:16,516
Speaker 2: or know anyone who you might set me up with,

625
00:31:16,876 --> 00:31:19,516
Speaker 2: please feel free to let me know. These are things

626
00:31:19,556 --> 00:31:22,356
Speaker 2: that don't take a lot of time but can be

627
00:31:22,476 --> 00:31:25,396
Speaker 2: very high leverage as opposed to the typical way that

628
00:31:25,436 --> 00:31:28,316
Speaker 2: a lot of people interact with online dating, which people

629
00:31:28,396 --> 00:31:31,196
Speaker 2: on average spend fifty one minutes a day on dating

630
00:31:31,236 --> 00:31:34,036
Speaker 2: app So that's twenty five hours in a month. But

631
00:31:34,076 --> 00:31:37,316
Speaker 2: there's not a lot of time spent actually meeting up

632
00:31:37,596 --> 00:31:40,476
Speaker 2: for dates. And so I'm very interested in those things

633
00:31:40,516 --> 00:31:42,276
Speaker 2: that we can do to spend a lot less time,

634
00:31:42,276 --> 00:31:45,796
Speaker 2: a lot less frustration, and spend more time on dates

635
00:31:45,876 --> 00:31:48,516
Speaker 2: meeting up with people hopefully having a good time getting

636
00:31:48,556 --> 00:31:49,116
Speaker 2: to know someone.

637
00:31:49,836 --> 00:31:52,316
Speaker 1: Okay, so that's the picture that we put in our profile,

638
00:31:52,356 --> 00:31:55,276
Speaker 1: but they also have some text. What does the research say.

639
00:31:55,596 --> 00:32:00,116
Speaker 2: We'll start with proofreading. Proofreading is something that is often overlooked,

640
00:32:00,316 --> 00:32:04,156
Speaker 2: and this is something that turns off a lot of people.

641
00:32:04,436 --> 00:32:07,356
Speaker 2: But fifty percent of people will disqualify a profile if

642
00:32:07,396 --> 00:32:10,236
Speaker 2: there is even a simple TYPEO in it. So just

643
00:32:10,316 --> 00:32:12,596
Speaker 2: do one last pass over it to make sure that

644
00:32:12,636 --> 00:32:16,036
Speaker 2: you don't have any typos in it. Being able to

645
00:32:16,396 --> 00:32:20,636
Speaker 2: respond to something in a way that allows people to comment.

646
00:32:20,716 --> 00:32:22,756
Speaker 2: So for example, we might say, you know, ask me

647
00:32:22,796 --> 00:32:25,436
Speaker 2: about the time I super glued my hand to the

648
00:32:25,436 --> 00:32:27,836
Speaker 2: wall or had to go down the emergency slide on

649
00:32:28,236 --> 00:32:31,436
Speaker 2: an Air India flight. These are all things that can

650
00:32:31,476 --> 00:32:36,396
Speaker 2: help us make ourselves more approachable. Honesty is always something

651
00:32:36,516 --> 00:32:39,716
Speaker 2: that is paramount here and also being positive. I think

652
00:32:39,756 --> 00:32:43,636
Speaker 2: that we want to be able to tell people all

653
00:32:43,636 --> 00:32:45,196
Speaker 2: the things that we don't want, and we're like and

654
00:32:45,196 --> 00:32:48,276
Speaker 2: I wouldn't date someone of this political affiliation. I wouldn't

655
00:32:48,476 --> 00:32:51,196
Speaker 2: ever do this. And there are a lot of ways

656
00:32:51,236 --> 00:32:54,156
Speaker 2: that we can signal these same things, but in a

657
00:32:54,156 --> 00:32:56,996
Speaker 2: way that exudes more positivity. So we might say like

658
00:32:57,196 --> 00:33:01,116
Speaker 2: looking for someone open minded and that may touch on

659
00:33:01,196 --> 00:33:04,196
Speaker 2: certain political beliefs without having to say, you know, like

660
00:33:04,316 --> 00:33:06,356
Speaker 2: this is what I'm not looking for, or instead of

661
00:33:06,356 --> 00:33:10,396
Speaker 2: like no workaholics, I'm seeking someone who've values quality time

662
00:33:10,516 --> 00:33:14,156
Speaker 2: and work life balance. If you like animals, you could say,

663
00:33:14,156 --> 00:33:17,476
Speaker 2: if you don't like animals, wipe left. The other reframe

664
00:33:17,596 --> 00:33:20,396
Speaker 2: is like looking for a fellow animal over here. So

665
00:33:20,436 --> 00:33:22,316
Speaker 2: that's what we put in a profile. But then if

666
00:33:22,316 --> 00:33:24,756
Speaker 2: our profile works, we have this moment that can feel

667
00:33:24,876 --> 00:33:27,076
Speaker 2: really nerve wracking, which is that we have to send

668
00:33:27,196 --> 00:33:30,196
Speaker 2: the first message. What does a good first message look like?

669
00:33:31,356 --> 00:33:34,756
Speaker 2: A great first message is something that first of all,

670
00:33:34,996 --> 00:33:37,956
Speaker 2: asks an open ended question, something that someone is able

671
00:33:37,996 --> 00:33:42,516
Speaker 2: to respond to. When we're thinking about these messages, we

672
00:33:42,556 --> 00:33:45,316
Speaker 2: want to invest a little bit of time looking through

673
00:33:45,356 --> 00:33:49,436
Speaker 2: their profile, making a thoughtful comment on something that they

674
00:33:49,676 --> 00:33:52,036
Speaker 2: have said about themselves. And at the same time, we

675
00:33:52,076 --> 00:33:54,356
Speaker 2: don't want to obsess. You know, we're not penning the

676
00:33:54,636 --> 00:33:58,196
Speaker 2: great American novel here. This is just an opportunity to

677
00:33:58,276 --> 00:34:03,636
Speaker 2: reach out and to maybe start a spark that leads somewhere.

678
00:34:04,356 --> 00:34:08,356
Speaker 2: One important thing when we're thinking about online messaging is

679
00:34:08,396 --> 00:34:11,356
Speaker 2: the amount of time time we're spending back and forth

680
00:34:12,076 --> 00:34:15,796
Speaker 2: before we're actually getting to a date. It can feel

681
00:34:15,876 --> 00:34:19,876
Speaker 2: very tempting to want to understand everything about this person

682
00:34:19,996 --> 00:34:22,116
Speaker 2: before understanding if it's a good idea to meet up

683
00:34:22,196 --> 00:34:26,356
Speaker 2: or not, and there are certain safety considerations for sure.

684
00:34:27,356 --> 00:34:30,876
Speaker 2: At the same time, research from Hinge suggests that there's

685
00:34:30,916 --> 00:34:34,596
Speaker 2: this sweet spot between about two to five days where

686
00:34:34,636 --> 00:34:38,916
Speaker 2: people are comfortable meeting up. So on average people think

687
00:34:38,996 --> 00:34:40,556
Speaker 2: that's a good amount of time. That's not going to

688
00:34:40,596 --> 00:34:43,236
Speaker 2: be for everyone, but it is helpful to keep in

689
00:34:43,276 --> 00:34:47,236
Speaker 2: mind that we don't need to have these digital pen pals,

690
00:34:47,476 --> 00:34:49,636
Speaker 2: and instead we can say like, Hey, this has been

691
00:34:49,676 --> 00:34:51,916
Speaker 2: really fun. I've enjoyed our banter. I think we might

692
00:34:51,916 --> 00:34:53,956
Speaker 2: even do a better job in person. What are your

693
00:34:53,956 --> 00:34:57,436
Speaker 2: thoughts on going for a walk Friday at six pm

694
00:34:57,516 --> 00:34:58,316
Speaker 2: over on the Highline.

695
00:34:59,356 --> 00:35:02,356
Speaker 1: And I love that particular example because that gets to

696
00:35:02,356 --> 00:35:04,436
Speaker 1: another thing you suggest, which is that when you're asking

697
00:35:04,476 --> 00:35:06,276
Speaker 1: for the in real life moment, you got to be

698
00:35:06,556 --> 00:35:09,676
Speaker 1: very specific, concrete let's meet up at the high at

699
00:35:09,716 --> 00:35:11,596
Speaker 1: seven pm and do this thing. We're going to take

700
00:35:11,596 --> 00:35:13,676
Speaker 1: a walk, rather than like, hey, let's just meet up.

701
00:35:13,716 --> 00:35:15,276
Speaker 1: That seems to work better too, huh.

702
00:35:15,916 --> 00:35:18,036
Speaker 2: It's so much easier to know what we're signing up

703
00:35:18,076 --> 00:35:24,516
Speaker 2: for when we say the time, place, behavior invitation versus

704
00:35:24,676 --> 00:35:28,236
Speaker 2: the hey are you around this weekend? I don't know

705
00:35:28,276 --> 00:35:30,836
Speaker 2: what I'm signing up for the high Line at seven pm.

706
00:35:30,996 --> 00:35:33,916
Speaker 2: There's a specificity that allows us to understand what we're

707
00:35:33,916 --> 00:35:34,876
Speaker 2: getting ourselves into.

708
00:35:35,356 --> 00:35:37,676
Speaker 1: And so a problem with meeting up in real life

709
00:35:37,716 --> 00:35:41,116
Speaker 1: is that we're all really busy. You had this lovely solution,

710
00:35:41,196 --> 00:35:43,596
Speaker 1: which you called turtlenecking your dating life.

711
00:35:43,756 --> 00:35:47,076
Speaker 2: What is that In the dating world where people are

712
00:35:47,116 --> 00:35:53,476
Speaker 2: experiencing record high burnout rates, being able to cut down

713
00:35:53,556 --> 00:35:58,356
Speaker 2: on the effort, the overwhelm, the choice overload is really helpful,

714
00:35:58,636 --> 00:36:01,956
Speaker 2: and so being able to automate certain things makes our

715
00:36:01,996 --> 00:36:07,556
Speaker 2: life a lot easier. Steve Jobs was iconically someone who

716
00:36:08,036 --> 00:36:11,236
Speaker 2: we're pretty much the same outfit for good portion of

717
00:36:11,276 --> 00:36:14,036
Speaker 2: his career, and so one of the things that I

718
00:36:14,076 --> 00:36:18,956
Speaker 2: suggest is using that same black turtleneck. Analogy from Steve

719
00:36:19,036 --> 00:36:21,756
Speaker 2: Jobs is like picking out a first date outfit.

720
00:36:21,996 --> 00:36:23,636
Speaker 3: What is your dating uniform going to be?

721
00:36:24,196 --> 00:36:27,276
Speaker 2: For me? I had this Henley that I love with

722
00:36:27,356 --> 00:36:29,476
Speaker 2: these particular pair of pants, and I was like, I

723
00:36:29,476 --> 00:36:31,716
Speaker 2: don't need to obsess over what I'm going to wear

724
00:36:32,116 --> 00:36:34,156
Speaker 2: on this date. I know that if I go on

725
00:36:34,196 --> 00:36:36,516
Speaker 2: a date, this is what I'm pulling out of my closet.

726
00:36:36,956 --> 00:36:39,396
Speaker 2: And it made this a lot easier. One fewer thing

727
00:36:39,436 --> 00:36:41,356
Speaker 2: that I needed to obsess over.

728
00:36:41,996 --> 00:36:44,036
Speaker 1: You've done this too, for even what the date is.

729
00:36:44,076 --> 00:36:45,916
Speaker 1: I think you want to kind of make it authentic

730
00:36:45,956 --> 00:36:47,836
Speaker 1: to the person you're talking to, but you had some

731
00:36:47,956 --> 00:36:50,036
Speaker 1: go tos, your kind of date spot turtlenecks.

732
00:36:50,036 --> 00:36:53,036
Speaker 2: If I understand it right, there's a careful balance here

733
00:36:53,196 --> 00:36:58,316
Speaker 2: between wanting to be thoughtful and say like, hey, there's

734
00:36:58,356 --> 00:37:01,756
Speaker 2: this great Italian restaurant in your neighborhood, maybe we try

735
00:37:01,796 --> 00:37:04,956
Speaker 2: and meet up there. That shows a certain level of thoughtfulness,

736
00:37:05,196 --> 00:37:08,516
Speaker 2: and there's also this balance with our own schedules, living

737
00:37:08,596 --> 00:37:12,276
Speaker 2: busy lives and thinking about how can we date, Recognizing

738
00:37:12,356 --> 00:37:16,316
Speaker 2: that I don't have to go on Yelp and scour

739
00:37:16,396 --> 00:37:20,516
Speaker 2: reviews for every restaurant on the Upper east Side. I

740
00:37:20,596 --> 00:37:23,916
Speaker 2: know that there's this really great Ramen place. I know,

741
00:37:24,036 --> 00:37:25,556
Speaker 2: like this is actually on my way back from the

742
00:37:25,556 --> 00:37:28,436
Speaker 2: office anyway, so it works well with my day. So

743
00:37:28,556 --> 00:37:30,396
Speaker 2: I'm going to suggest this, and maybe we have to

744
00:37:30,436 --> 00:37:33,676
Speaker 2: iterate and maybe Ramen on the Upper east Side turns

745
00:37:33,676 --> 00:37:36,716
Speaker 2: in Tacos somewhere else, but at least it provides that

746
00:37:36,756 --> 00:37:40,836
Speaker 2: tangible starting point and keeping that balance, but also having

747
00:37:40,916 --> 00:37:43,676
Speaker 2: the ability to cut down.

748
00:37:43,516 --> 00:37:45,996
Speaker 3: On some of that choice overwhelm.

749
00:37:46,516 --> 00:37:48,076
Speaker 1: The other thing we need to cut down on is

750
00:37:48,156 --> 00:37:50,636
Speaker 1: just how obsessed we get everything. You know, you mentioned

751
00:37:50,636 --> 00:37:52,676
Speaker 1: this idea. You can invest in the first message, but

752
00:37:52,716 --> 00:37:54,636
Speaker 1: you don't need to obsess over it. You just mentioned

753
00:37:54,636 --> 00:37:56,596
Speaker 1: you don't need to do this huge Yelp search to

754
00:37:56,596 --> 00:37:58,356
Speaker 1: figure out where you're going to go. I think one

755
00:37:58,396 --> 00:38:00,556
Speaker 1: of the problems with online dating is it can become

756
00:38:00,596 --> 00:38:03,396
Speaker 1: a bit of a compulsion, especially when it comes to

757
00:38:03,556 --> 00:38:06,156
Speaker 1: just the swiping. Tell me a little bit about what

758
00:38:06,196 --> 00:38:08,876
Speaker 1: we know about how much online dating has in common

759
00:38:08,916 --> 00:38:11,996
Speaker 1: with other addictive behaviors that people can fall into.

760
00:38:12,956 --> 00:38:18,596
Speaker 2: Online dating, and particularly swipe based dating algorithms are made

761
00:38:18,716 --> 00:38:22,716
Speaker 2: based on a very similar algorithm to how slot machines operate,

762
00:38:23,276 --> 00:38:25,676
Speaker 2: where we don't know when we're getting that dopamine hit.

763
00:38:26,076 --> 00:38:31,516
Speaker 2: Intermittent rewards produce highly addictive tendencies. So, for example, we

764
00:38:31,636 --> 00:38:34,996
Speaker 2: keep swiping and swiping and swiping, not knowing when that

765
00:38:35,396 --> 00:38:38,196
Speaker 2: reward is going to come. We want to just keep

766
00:38:38,236 --> 00:38:41,156
Speaker 2: doing this behavior over and over again. There's some interesting

767
00:38:41,516 --> 00:38:45,276
Speaker 2: psychological research from a skinner. We did this with pigeons

768
00:38:45,396 --> 00:38:48,916
Speaker 2: and they're pecking at this little lever trying to understand,

769
00:38:48,996 --> 00:38:50,276
Speaker 2: you know, when are they going to get a.

770
00:38:50,236 --> 00:38:51,036
Speaker 3: Little piece of food.

771
00:38:51,476 --> 00:38:54,796
Speaker 2: And for those pigeons that pack, get some food, peck,

772
00:38:54,796 --> 00:38:57,356
Speaker 2: get some food, and then eventually the food stops being administered,

773
00:38:57,596 --> 00:39:00,316
Speaker 2: they'll stop pecking, whereas the other ones who get this

774
00:39:00,396 --> 00:39:02,716
Speaker 2: on an intermittent reward schedule, so they pack and sometimes

775
00:39:02,796 --> 00:39:05,676
Speaker 2: get the food, pack, sometimes get the food. That's a

776
00:39:05,756 --> 00:39:11,196
Speaker 2: highly addictive patterning and it's something that we see all

777
00:39:11,236 --> 00:39:14,436
Speaker 2: the time with online dating. And it's not a coincidence

778
00:39:14,476 --> 00:39:18,076
Speaker 2: that these are engineered in this way, especially when you

779
00:39:18,156 --> 00:39:21,356
Speaker 2: think about the incentives that these app companies have for engagement,

780
00:39:21,436 --> 00:39:22,676
Speaker 2: for time on the app, and all.

781
00:39:22,596 --> 00:39:23,316
Speaker 3: Of these things.

782
00:39:23,716 --> 00:39:25,516
Speaker 1: So what do we know about what a healthy amount

783
00:39:25,516 --> 00:39:26,996
Speaker 1: of time looks like on these apps?

784
00:39:28,036 --> 00:39:30,476
Speaker 2: Healthy is going to be a little bit different for

785
00:39:30,596 --> 00:39:35,356
Speaker 2: each person. In general, something like fifteen minutes a day

786
00:39:35,716 --> 00:39:38,956
Speaker 2: is what a lot of experts recommend for interacting with

787
00:39:38,996 --> 00:39:43,356
Speaker 2: these One thing that I suggest is setting an alarm

788
00:39:43,836 --> 00:39:46,756
Speaker 2: when you log into the platform, because it can get

789
00:39:46,836 --> 00:39:49,276
Speaker 2: very addictive. That we were just talking about, and so

790
00:39:49,356 --> 00:39:52,196
Speaker 2: it's easy to blow past that fifteen minute hard stop

791
00:39:52,276 --> 00:39:54,716
Speaker 2: unless we have something reminding us like okay, time to

792
00:39:54,716 --> 00:39:59,076
Speaker 2: get off these things. In terms of regularity, Again, this

793
00:39:59,116 --> 00:40:02,036
Speaker 2: is person dependent, but often I'd say something like three

794
00:40:02,036 --> 00:40:05,756
Speaker 2: times a week fifteen minutes. It's enough to stay current,

795
00:40:05,756 --> 00:40:08,676
Speaker 2: to stay fresh. If you're worried about missing a match

796
00:40:08,796 --> 00:40:12,196
Speaker 2: or responding quickly enough to message, you can always just

797
00:40:12,236 --> 00:40:13,756
Speaker 2: be upfront and say like, hey, you know, I'm much

798
00:40:13,796 --> 00:40:16,796
Speaker 2: quicker over text. So if you do end up being

799
00:40:16,836 --> 00:40:19,676
Speaker 2: free for that walk on the high line, then text

800
00:40:19,716 --> 00:40:22,476
Speaker 2: me here's my number. But we want to avoid that

801
00:40:22,516 --> 00:40:27,116
Speaker 2: situation where we're constantly logging in, and generally speaking, the

802
00:40:27,156 --> 00:40:29,556
Speaker 2: amount of time on average that people are spending is

803
00:40:29,636 --> 00:40:31,796
Speaker 2: much too high for protecting our mental health.

804
00:40:32,876 --> 00:40:35,236
Speaker 1: And so those are some of the pitfalls of apps.

805
00:40:35,276 --> 00:40:37,676
Speaker 1: But hopefully we either do that or we meet a

806
00:40:37,676 --> 00:40:40,076
Speaker 1: person in real life and we find somebody that we

807
00:40:40,156 --> 00:40:42,916
Speaker 1: really like. And so how can you tell when the

808
00:40:42,956 --> 00:40:45,916
Speaker 1: person you've found is the right one to invest in

809
00:40:46,036 --> 00:40:47,756
Speaker 1: when it's time to stop dating other people.

810
00:40:48,716 --> 00:40:53,716
Speaker 2: It's a great question, and from a numerical standpoint, like, yes,

811
00:40:54,316 --> 00:40:57,836
Speaker 2: I had set this date number goal, I said, all right,

812
00:40:58,116 --> 00:41:00,436
Speaker 2: I'm willing to ask out up to three hundred people.

813
00:41:01,116 --> 00:41:04,676
Speaker 2: I had found some pretty good matches along the way,

814
00:41:05,076 --> 00:41:07,596
Speaker 2: things that for small reasons didn't end up working out

815
00:41:08,356 --> 00:41:14,676
Speaker 2: when I met there was a one understanding that she

816
00:41:15,316 --> 00:41:18,236
Speaker 2: was compared to a previous baseline, like considerably better than that.

817
00:41:18,636 --> 00:41:23,436
Speaker 2: But also there were, more importantly, these bigger overriding qualities,

818
00:41:23,556 --> 00:41:28,556
Speaker 2: things like kindness, things like curiosity. We shared a lot

819
00:41:28,556 --> 00:41:32,156
Speaker 2: of values in common, and so it was something where

820
00:41:32,636 --> 00:41:37,156
Speaker 2: I had felt very differently than I had in previous relationships.

821
00:41:37,356 --> 00:41:40,156
Speaker 2: That was something that for me surfaced fairly early on.

822
00:41:40,236 --> 00:41:42,156
Speaker 2: I don't think that always needs to be the case,

823
00:41:42,596 --> 00:41:45,116
Speaker 2: but here it happened to and kind of on her end,

824
00:41:45,636 --> 00:41:48,516
Speaker 2: she tells a story about when we were out for

825
00:41:48,716 --> 00:41:53,316
Speaker 2: sort of our first official date and I was asking

826
00:41:53,356 --> 00:41:56,556
Speaker 2: about her morning routine and she was talking about the

827
00:41:56,636 --> 00:41:57,756
Speaker 2: smoothie that she makes.

828
00:41:57,836 --> 00:41:59,876
Speaker 3: I was like, okay, like, well, what goes into the smoothie?

829
00:41:59,916 --> 00:42:01,956
Speaker 3: And she's like, well, you know, it's a spinach and

830
00:42:02,316 --> 00:42:04,996
Speaker 3: some juice that goes in there and yogurt. Is like, ah,

831
00:42:05,076 --> 00:42:06,276
Speaker 3: what kind of yogurt do you use?

832
00:42:06,356 --> 00:42:09,556
Speaker 2: And I'm a pretty curious person and I I didn't

833
00:42:09,596 --> 00:42:12,436
Speaker 2: even remember that conversation when she brought it up months later,

834
00:42:13,036 --> 00:42:15,676
Speaker 2: but she remembers that, like, gosh, when you were asking

835
00:42:15,716 --> 00:42:19,076
Speaker 2: me about what type of Greek yogurt I use there

836
00:42:19,116 --> 00:42:22,076
Speaker 2: was this level of interest, this curiosity, asking questions, wanting

837
00:42:22,116 --> 00:42:23,956
Speaker 2: to get to know someone, and for her that was

838
00:42:23,956 --> 00:42:26,916
Speaker 2: signaling of here's someone who's going to be growth mindseted

839
00:42:27,196 --> 00:42:28,556
Speaker 2: and there were a lot of things on her end

840
00:42:28,556 --> 00:42:28,956
Speaker 2: as well.

841
00:42:30,036 --> 00:42:32,196
Speaker 1: And so any final thoughts for our listeners about how

842
00:42:32,196 --> 00:42:34,636
Speaker 1: you can use a behavioral science approach to date smarter.

843
00:42:35,596 --> 00:42:40,596
Speaker 2: This idea that we invest a lot of time and

844
00:42:40,676 --> 00:42:45,076
Speaker 2: effort and lots of things that we care about is

845
00:42:45,556 --> 00:42:49,156
Speaker 2: one that seems very normal for so many aspects of

846
00:42:49,196 --> 00:42:52,116
Speaker 2: our life. And we think about getting our dream job,

847
00:42:52,436 --> 00:42:56,156
Speaker 2: when we think about having our health, whatever it might be.

848
00:42:56,476 --> 00:42:58,916
Speaker 2: And with dating, I think there's again like the same

849
00:42:59,036 --> 00:43:02,076
Speaker 2: idea that I approach things with that it'll happen when

850
00:43:02,076 --> 00:43:04,556
Speaker 2: it happens. What I would say is we have a

851
00:43:04,556 --> 00:43:07,836
Speaker 2: lot more agency than we often give ourselves credit for,

852
00:43:08,396 --> 00:43:10,876
Speaker 2: and we should think about those ways in which we

853
00:43:10,916 --> 00:43:14,676
Speaker 2: can exercise this on a daily basis. And maybe that's

854
00:43:14,716 --> 00:43:17,116
Speaker 2: saying I'm going to shift up my schedule a little bit.

855
00:43:17,276 --> 00:43:20,436
Speaker 2: I'm going to move from the Tuesday pottery class to

856
00:43:20,596 --> 00:43:24,116
Speaker 2: the Wednesday pottery class, meeting new group of people. I'm

857
00:43:24,156 --> 00:43:27,676
Speaker 2: going to make sure that i'm sitting out at the

858
00:43:27,756 --> 00:43:30,916
Speaker 2: community table. When I'm out at the coffee shop, I'm

859
00:43:30,996 --> 00:43:34,036
Speaker 2: going to set a date number and find an accountability

860
00:43:34,076 --> 00:43:38,116
Speaker 2: buddy and begin taking action in the ways that rest

861
00:43:38,156 --> 00:43:42,676
Speaker 2: within my control that improve our outcomes. And that's really

862
00:43:42,676 --> 00:43:45,036
Speaker 2: what I think the deep takeaway message is here.

863
00:43:47,236 --> 00:43:50,956
Speaker 1: Dating can feel mysterious and frustrating, but as Tim's work

864
00:43:51,036 --> 00:43:53,716
Speaker 1: shows us, it's not as out of control as we

865
00:43:53,836 --> 00:43:57,836
Speaker 1: often assume. There are strategies we can use to build resilience,

866
00:43:57,956 --> 00:44:02,116
Speaker 1: reduce anxiety, and maybe just maybe find that perfect person.

867
00:44:02,516 --> 00:44:04,316
Speaker 1: And if you want even more advice on the best

868
00:44:04,356 --> 00:44:07,556
Speaker 1: ways to go about that, check out Tim's book Date Smarter,

869
00:44:07,756 --> 00:44:11,516
Speaker 1: a strategic guide to navigating modern romance. If you have

870
00:44:11,556 --> 00:44:14,276
Speaker 1: thoughts about today's episode and the Science of Love, we'd

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Speaker 1: love to hear them. You can email us at Happiness

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Speaker 1: Lab at Pushkin dot fm, or leave us a review

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Speaker 1: to tell us what you like. You can also sign

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Speaker 1: up to learn more about the Science of Happiness and

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Speaker 1: join my free newsletter on my website, Doctor Lauri Santos

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Speaker 1: dot com. That's d r l a U RI E

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Speaker 1: s A n t O s dot com. Coming up

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Speaker 1: on next week's episode of the Happiness Lab, we'll explore

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Speaker 1: the misconceptions we have about attraction. We'll dig into the

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Speaker 1: science of happier bonding with an expert on the evolutionary

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Speaker 1: psychology of human mating.

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Speaker 4: When we look at these differences and what men and

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Speaker 4: women say they want, they're not translating into their experienced

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Speaker 4: preferences when they're out there meeting real life people.

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Speaker 1: That's next up in our series on the science of

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Speaker 1: love on the Happiness Lab with me doctor Lauriy Santos,