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Speaker 1: Pushkin. To close out the year at Broken Record, we've

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Speaker 1: been revisiting some of our favorite conversations from years past.

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Speaker 1: We started a couple of weeks ago with Patti Smith

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Speaker 1: and Raphael Sadiq. This week, we're revisiting a conversation with

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Speaker 1: English pop singer-songwriter Ray. Ray just won the Mercury Prize

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Speaker 1: over the weekend for his sophomore release, This Album May

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Speaker 1: Contain Hope, which featured the huge single, Where's My Husband?

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Speaker 1: But this conversation covers her debut album, My 21st Century Blues,

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Speaker 1: which won Album of the Year and a historic total

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Speaker 1: six wins at the 2024 Brit Awards. In our chat,

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Speaker 1: we discuss how a quote from Nina Simone gave her

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Speaker 1: the courage to take control of her career, and she

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Speaker 1: explains the inspiration behind her sprawling multi-part single, Genesis. This

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Speaker 1: is Broken Record, liner notes for the digital age. I'm

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Speaker 1: Justin Richmond. Here's my conversation with Ray. man, your Coachella

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Speaker 1: set seemed like it was really well received. I got

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Speaker 1: to see a bit of it. It was awesome.

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Speaker 2: It was definitely really a special one for us. I

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Speaker 2: think it's the first time I've witnessed a crowd like

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Speaker 2: that for me in a festival in the States, you know.

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Speaker 2: So that was like a really special change. It's something

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Speaker 2: I'm not used to out here.

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Speaker 1: What felt different about that crowd?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think in America, like it's, It's always been intimidating,

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Speaker 2: I think, as a British artist, you know, the idea

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Speaker 2: of like performing in America anyway is just intimidating. And,

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Speaker 2: you know, I've done quite a few, not loads, but

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Speaker 2: a few other festivals out here where you're like, right,

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Speaker 2: we need to win the crowd. We need to grow

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Speaker 2: the crowd. Yeah. So Coachella just, I wasn't expecting it

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Speaker 2: to be that full and people were really engaged and

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Speaker 2: it was really special.

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Speaker 1: This wasn't a case of you getting your music out

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Speaker 1: to a bunch of people at a festival. It was like,

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Speaker 1: those were, people are like now converted. Like people are

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Speaker 1: Ray fans.

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Speaker 2: Do you know what? I do have a habit during,

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Speaker 2: during shows of really overanalyzing everyone's faces. I feel like

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Speaker 2: at the beginning of the set, I was like, right.

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Speaker 2: I was like, right. I need to win. I need

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Speaker 2: people to get to know me, you know, kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: And I always try and leave a bit of space.

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Speaker 2: We ended up taking a song or two out so

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Speaker 2: that I'd have more time to chat I like to

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Speaker 2: have a little chat some people say she needs to

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Speaker 2: stop talking but I just like to talk and I

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Speaker 2: think also it's a case of maybe some people have

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Speaker 2: heard the songs or maybe the song that started to

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Speaker 2: cross over here and they're like let's go and see

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Speaker 2: what it's about and I think my mission is always

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Speaker 2: during a performance I just want people to walk away

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Speaker 2: and be like I would see that again or that

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Speaker 2: was good you know that's my goal yeah and you

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Speaker 2: can see people being one up you know people going

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Speaker 2: from stern face or just like watching with no expression

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Speaker 2: to being like, oh, okay. Or do you know what

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Speaker 2: I mean? You're like wave and they're doing it. And

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Speaker 2: you're like, okay, cool. Like, you know.

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Speaker 1: Have you discovered little things that you can do over

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Speaker 1: the course of a set to maybe like reliably win

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Speaker 1: people over?

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Speaker 2: I think honesty has always been something that's kind of important.

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Speaker 2: I've never really, I don't really plan what I say.

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Speaker 2: I kind of keep the music, you know, we know

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Speaker 2: what we're doing within the songs, but even some of

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Speaker 2: the endings of the songs, we leave space. And I

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Speaker 2: just kind of like it to be as open as possible.

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Speaker 2: And I think sometimes when you're just playing songs and

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Speaker 2: not talking, people can't really get to know you. They're

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Speaker 2: just getting to know the music. So I think that's

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Speaker 2: an important thing as well. I like to try and

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Speaker 2: give a little backstory behind whatever this song is about

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Speaker 2: or this moment.

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Speaker 1: So you don't script your stage banter at all? No.

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Speaker 2: So sometimes I'll be like, Oh my God, why did

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Speaker 2: I just say that out loud?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you halfway through talking, you'd be like, what am

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Speaker 1: I saying now? What's going on?

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Speaker 2: There is a lot of that.

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Speaker 1: Where am I going with this?

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Speaker 2: I think I even did that. I was like, I

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Speaker 2: don't know why I just told you that. Let's move on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. The way the album came about

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Speaker 1: was kind of circuitous. It wasn't a situation where you

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Speaker 1: were at a label. It basically, there was a lot

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Speaker 1: of roadblocks. And if you want to just, I guess,

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Speaker 1: walk us through some of those.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just not necessarily been a simple 10 years

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Speaker 2: to get to this moment. You know, I was about

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Speaker 2: 17 when I signed my deal and I was with

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Speaker 2: a record label for seven years. And I think... Polydor.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Can we name them?

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Speaker 2: No, I mean... I.

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Speaker 1: Mean, I think it's on the record, right?

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Speaker 2: And, you know, I think being a British artist, it's

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Speaker 2: a very different world out there. I think it's very...

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Speaker 2: dance orientated there are formulas typically that are safer formulas

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Speaker 2: that you practice as a songwriter you know I started

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Speaker 2: in this game as a songwriter from the age of

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Speaker 2: 14 is when I really took it seriously and I

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Speaker 2: was doing sessions after school and stuff and you kind

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Speaker 2: of learn really quickly okay there's a formula to this

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Speaker 2: you know accessibility repetition symmetry, you know, the whole math

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Speaker 2: spine kind of the songwriting thing.

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Speaker 1: And, um, how did that change your songwriting as a young,

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Speaker 1: like when you're 14, I imagine you're coming to a

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Speaker 1: pretty pure, like just probably just wanting to express and create. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And then you're realizing there's like a formula. Did that

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Speaker 1: change your songwriting?

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Speaker 2: Opposed to like change. I think it's just almost a

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Speaker 2: world of just gathering skills. You know, when I started

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Speaker 2: writing songs, it was very much feeling and freestyling and

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Speaker 2: what felt right and being like, Ooh, I did a

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Speaker 2: lot of songwriting in Sweden. There's some incredible pop songwriters

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Speaker 2: out there. And I used to fly out for a

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Speaker 2: couple of weeks at a time and write with all

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Speaker 2: the producers and writers, anyone that would let me in

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Speaker 2: a session. And from that, you're like, oh, wow. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's not just whatever melody feels nice. It's like, okay,

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Speaker 2: we have a melody here. The end of the melody

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Speaker 2: is a little bit too complicated. this word doesn't roll

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Speaker 2: off the tongue as nice, you know, and chipping away

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Speaker 2: and sculpting something. You know, they're all skills that I'm

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Speaker 2: really glad I acquired. And I think for different artists

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Speaker 2: and different sounds and different genres, you kind of need

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Speaker 2: more of one skill than another and stuff like that.

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Speaker 2: But within that space, you know, dance music is huge

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Speaker 2: at symmetry and maths and repetition and a lyric that

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Speaker 2: everyone can relate to and easily digestible and stuff like that.

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Speaker 2: So I kind of, from a younger age realized I

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Speaker 2: had a knack at being persistent and chipping away at

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Speaker 2: something until the artist or the person I was writing

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Speaker 2: with was happy.

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Speaker 1: And you could take whatever criticism that would come with

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Speaker 1: a version one.

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Speaker 2: A hundred percent. And when writing for someone else, it's

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Speaker 2: not about, you know, my opinion to a degree, but

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Speaker 2: you know, I'm a people pleaser as well. So I'd

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Speaker 2: be like, I'm going to make this song, I'm going

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Speaker 2: to do it. So they love it. You know, it's

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Speaker 2: all a performance as well in another way. It's kind

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Speaker 2: of funny. But yeah, I think when that started to

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Speaker 2: cross over and bleed into, um, what my label at

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Speaker 2: the time wanted from me and the goal was selling

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Speaker 2: opposed to the art itself.

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Speaker 1: Did you know that going in or was that kind

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Speaker 1: of a, were you blindsided a bit by that?

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Speaker 2: Oh no, of course not.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Nobody does.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It's a real thing. You know, that moment before you

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Speaker 2: put pen on paper, everyone is so nice. They take

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Speaker 2: you for dinners. They sell you a whole lot of

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Speaker 2: lovely things. dreams and and promises like some of the

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Speaker 2: things I was like 16 years old when I started

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Speaker 2: doing the rounds and some of the things I heard

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Speaker 2: oh my god I'm not even gonna repeat on here

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Speaker 2: because but it's wild what did you hear what something

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Speaker 2: like you know this we have this artist said artists

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Speaker 2: I won't even name the name but they've heard your

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Speaker 2: music they've agreed to endorse you if you sign with

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Speaker 2: us you're going to have this, you're going to have that.

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Speaker 2: This isn't even, this is just, people just talk. And

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Speaker 2: artists in this stage know people will say anything to

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Speaker 2: get you to put your name on that piece of paper.

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Speaker 2: When you're 16 years old from South London and you're

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Speaker 2: like in America doing meetings with these big, huge people,

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Speaker 2: it can absolutely just muddle your brain up and false

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Speaker 2: hope and a lot of lies.

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Speaker 1: A lot of air.

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Speaker 2: So it's real. I was like, rah, this place is dark.

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Speaker 1: How quickly after you put pen to paper did you realize, uh-oh,

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Speaker 1: I just got bamboozled?

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Speaker 2: Maybe I'd like to say a year in, maybe. Also,

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Speaker 2: the guy who had signed me had then left. So

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Speaker 2: the dynamics change pretty quickly after that.

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Speaker 1: That's a pretty common thing. story too, I feel like

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Speaker 1: I hear.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it is.

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Speaker 1: Your support structure leaves and then you're kind of left.

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Speaker 2: There's actually a contractual clause called a key man clause,

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Speaker 2: which artists should know about. And I didn't at the time.

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Speaker 2: But it means, you know, you get that clause put

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Speaker 2: into your contract means if the person who signs you

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Speaker 2: leaves that you have the right to terminate or move

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Speaker 2: with them. It's called a key man clause. And it's

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Speaker 2: just something I wish I knew about when I was 17.

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Speaker 1: To what extent were you happy with the early phases

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Speaker 1: and stages of your career like those first from like

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Speaker 1: 16 17 to you know a couple of years ago

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Speaker 1: only a few years.

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Speaker 2: Ago well I think it was a tricky one because

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Speaker 2: it wasn't about my goals it was about you know

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Speaker 2: needing to impress these people who basically have my career

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Speaker 2: in in their hands you know they get to decide

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Speaker 2: whether they're going to promote something or they're not whether

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Speaker 2: they're going to Pause my timeline or help me move

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Speaker 2: things along. So you have to play ball, you know,

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Speaker 2: and you learn that pretty quick.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So I did my best to do that. The goal

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Speaker 2: always has been since the day that I signed to

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Speaker 2: now in my career to be an albums artist. I

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Speaker 2: wanted to release Bodies of Work and I was really excited.

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Speaker 2: to be able to earn the right to decide what

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Speaker 2: music I wanted to share and it was kind of

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Speaker 2: always presented that you know when you have a song

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Speaker 2: that's big enough and you've earned an audience that's big

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Speaker 2: enough and wants an album from you that you can

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Speaker 2: do that so.

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Speaker 1: Yeah When did your debut album start coming together? When

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Speaker 1: did you record that?

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Speaker 2: I would say maybe about four or five years ago.

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Speaker 2: Some of the earliest songs started coming together.

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Speaker 1: What were the first few?

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Speaker 2: Oscar winning Tears was there for a long time. Hard

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Speaker 2: Out Here, but the instrumental was made years ago. But

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Speaker 2: then I wrote a whole nother song on top of it.

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Speaker 2: Worth It was an older one. Yeah, a couple of

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Speaker 2: songs had just been around for a while. Five Stars

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Speaker 2: was an old one. Yeah. And I had the title

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Speaker 2: about four years ago. It's funny because I was going

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Speaker 2: through some of my notebooks at home and I found

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Speaker 2: this notebook. It was dated like 2018 or something. It

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Speaker 2: said my 21st century blues.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: So the title and the ideas were forming for a while.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you remember why that title came to you?

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Speaker 1: Why that phrase came to you?

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Speaker 2: I don't know completely. What I do know is when

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Speaker 2: I was a kid, I was about 14 years old

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Speaker 2: and my dad and my uncle, we went on a

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Speaker 2: road trip. Basically, we drove through America. We started in

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Speaker 2: LA and we went all the way through to, I

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Speaker 2: think it was Atlanta or we ended somewhere. And we

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Speaker 2: drove all through Nashville. We drove through New Orleans and Louisiana.

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Speaker 2: We like did a whole trip. And at that time,

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Speaker 2: everywhere we'd drive, we'd put on the local radios. You know,

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Speaker 2: in the UK, you know, I'd listen to a lot

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Speaker 2: of gospel and some of the great, amazing singers, but

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Speaker 2: there was so much music and genres I'd never been

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Speaker 2: exposed to. And I think, I had a life-changing experience

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Speaker 2: when I was in New Orleans and it was at

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Speaker 2: a place called the Preservation Jazz Hall. And it was

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Speaker 2: like a room, like 150 people come into this room

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Speaker 2: and there's just this band. And I remember being sat

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Speaker 2: cross-legged on the floor. I was sat right underneath this

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Speaker 2: guy's trombone. I had like spit flying in my face.

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Speaker 2: I'm literally sat there like wide-eyed, just like, what is this?

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Speaker 2: I'd never experienced anything like it. And it was just

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Speaker 2: a fusion of kind of jazz and the blues. And

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Speaker 2: I remember being like, whatever this is, I want a

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Speaker 2: part of that. And since then, I kind of, my

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Speaker 2: tastes changed and I just wanted to know more and

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Speaker 2: understand more about this feeling, this kind of music. And yeah,

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Speaker 2: so although we barely scratch over any kind of blues

258
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Speaker 2: textures in this album, what I fell in love with

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Speaker 2: was the songwriting itself. And how, you know, we go

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Speaker 2: to these bars and you've got people playing this. I'd

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Speaker 2: be like. When I was a little boy. I went

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Speaker 2: to school one day. And then I sat on a chair.

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Speaker 2: I had my teacher say. Do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: These stories and each one was different. It was the

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Speaker 2: same riff and just all these stories.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, wow.

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Speaker 2: So this is their blues. And I was like, this

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Speaker 2: is deep. And they're deep stories, moving stories, very honest

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Speaker 2: and transparent and clear and beautiful. And I fell in love.

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Speaker 2: I always had this idea of I wanted to make

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Speaker 2: whatever my version of the blues is, even though it's

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Speaker 2: not necessarily that genre. It's that candidness.

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Speaker 1: Well, and there's a bravado on a lot of your,

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't know if it's like the whole album,

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Speaker 1: because there's some very vulnerable bits, but there is an attitude,

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Speaker 1: a backbone to this album for sure that runs through it.

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Speaker 2: I love that.

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Speaker 1: And I love the book ends. It's like, as you

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Speaker 1: put it on, it's like you're being transported to like

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Speaker 1: a smoky jazz club.

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Speaker 2: Come on.

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Speaker 1: You know what I mean? And by the time it ends,

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Speaker 1: you're right back there and you're almost ready to play

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Speaker 1: right over again.

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Speaker 2: I love that.

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Speaker 1: It's amazing to hear that that stuck with you and

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Speaker 1: that that made it that far from a childhood road

288
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Speaker 1: trip across the 10 through from LA to New Orleans

289
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Speaker 1: and up, that that stayed with you all these years.

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Speaker 2: It really did.

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Speaker 1: After a quick break, we'll be back with more of

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Speaker 1: my conversation with Ray. We're back with more from Ray.

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Speaker 1: You referenced wanting to be an album artist. What were

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Speaker 1: some of the albums that you grew up on that

295
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Speaker 1: were like the bedrocks for you? Like the ones that

296
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Speaker 1: were like the perfect records for you?

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Speaker 2: My goodness. The first two albums that played such an

298
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Speaker 2: important part in my childhood was Alicia Keys, The Diary

299
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Speaker 2: of Alicia Keys. That was a big one for me. Wow.

300
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Speaker 2: That was the first hard copy album I ever bought.

301
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Speaker 2: And then Who Is Jill Scott? Jill Scott.

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Speaker 1: Nice.

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Speaker 2: That blew my mind. And I think also like being

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Speaker 2: in the UK and just, again, the stuff we was

305
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Speaker 2: exposed to. And then my uncle, shout out Uncle Jose,

306
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Speaker 2: put me on to this album. He started with A

307
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Speaker 2: Long Walk. And I was listening to this song like,

308
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Speaker 2: she's just talking with melodies. You know, you're used to

309
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Speaker 2: hearing these perfect rhyming couplets and everything being whatever. But

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Speaker 2: she's just like, speaking to you like a conversation and

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Speaker 2: it was so casual the way she would sing that

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Speaker 2: entire album it just blew my mind watching me you

313
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Speaker 2: know she's like she's talking about cctv and and people

314
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Speaker 2: watching her like as she's just gone to the shop

315
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Speaker 2: to buy some double or triple a batteries she's like

316
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Speaker 2: checking to see where I go who I be how

317
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Speaker 2: where with who I make my money what is this

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Speaker 2: excuse me, miss, may I have your telephone number and

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Speaker 2: your social security? She's like, who, me? It's just like

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Speaker 2: literally telling, I was like, what is happening? It completely

321
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Speaker 2: blew my mind and I fell in love. So those

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Speaker 2: were like two really important albums in my childhood, yeah.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you about your relationship with hip

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Speaker 1: hop because it feels like there's a certain cadence that

325
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Speaker 1: you can get into sometimes that would also explain it

326
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Speaker 1: a lot too. Like that kind of being able to

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Speaker 1: where it's like, are you talking? Are you singing? Kind

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Speaker 1: of doing both. So fire.

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Speaker 2: Jill is a queen at that, isn't it?

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Speaker 1: And then sometimes she'll be doing that and then just

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Speaker 1: take off. What? Whoa, okay, I forgot who I was

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Speaker 1: listening to.

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Speaker 2: And it's also so free, you know, with her. I

334
00:16:24,736 --> 00:16:28,576
Speaker 2: love her style of, you feel like anything can happen.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it doesn't feel too perfect. It just feels

336
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Speaker 2: so authentic. And I've always loved that about her, the

337
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Speaker 2: way she sings and performs as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Were you listening to a lot of hip hop too,

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Speaker 1: growing up?

340
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Speaker 2: Yeah, a fair amount. I mean, I did get to

341
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Speaker 2: that age where like Party Next Door was my everything.

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Speaker 2: That's not really hip hop, but you know, Drake, The Weeknd,

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Speaker 2: Party Next Door, you know that era we all had

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Speaker 2: where we're all like, oh my God.

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Speaker 1: Going up on a Tuesday.

346
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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: The Weeknd's first album was, was a big one. The trilogy.

349
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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: But in terms of like hip hop, I don't know.

351
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Speaker 2: We're kind of exposed to some different stuff. I was

352
00:17:06,986 --> 00:17:09,146
Speaker 2: exposed to a lot growing up and like different family

353
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Speaker 2: members as well.

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Speaker 1: Did you say you had an Uncle Jose? Yeah.

355
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Speaker 2: He's actually lives in America. So my mom and my

356
00:17:16,716 --> 00:17:21,996
Speaker 2: uncle were both raised in Ghana when they're about 22, 23,

357
00:17:21,996 --> 00:17:26,736
Speaker 2: mom moved to the UK and uncle Jose moved to America.

358
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Speaker 2: And he's always been so supportive as well. Like he

359
00:17:30,036 --> 00:17:33,446
Speaker 2: bought me my first laptop, my Mac book, where I

360
00:17:33,486 --> 00:17:35,556
Speaker 2: used to start making sessions on garage band and stuff

361
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Speaker 2: like that when I was about 13, no for my

362
00:17:37,746 --> 00:17:40,546
Speaker 2: 13th birthday. Yeah, and so I started making a lot

363
00:17:40,566 --> 00:17:43,226
Speaker 2: of demos on there and it really helped spark my

364
00:17:43,306 --> 00:17:47,256
Speaker 2: passion for production, vocal production and just making music in general.

365
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Speaker 2: It's so funny because even though none of us before

366
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Speaker 2: me and my sisters had ever practiced music, it was

367
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Speaker 2: always the desire for it and the passion for it

368
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Speaker 2: was always in the blood, I'd say. Like my dad's dad,

369
00:18:00,556 --> 00:18:02,456
Speaker 2: he used to write songs. He used to want to

370
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Speaker 2: be a songwriter professionally in a little town in England,

371
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Speaker 2: north of England, Yorkshire. He used to write songs on,

372
00:18:11,386 --> 00:18:13,426
Speaker 2: record them onto tape and score it out and write

373
00:18:13,446 --> 00:18:16,626
Speaker 2: the lyrics. And he'd send a box of tapes and

374
00:18:16,646 --> 00:18:19,346
Speaker 2: the sheet music to record labels in London, hoping that,

375
00:18:20,046 --> 00:18:23,376
Speaker 2: you know, someone might hear his songs and like it.

376
00:18:24,136 --> 00:18:26,256
Speaker 2: And I can't even be too candid, but he did

377
00:18:26,296 --> 00:18:29,476
Speaker 2: have a song stolen from him that turned out to

378
00:18:29,516 --> 00:18:31,776
Speaker 2: be really successful. But, you know, there's a lot of

379
00:18:31,836 --> 00:18:34,236
Speaker 2: songwriters that happened for back in the day. He didn't

380
00:18:34,276 --> 00:18:36,496
Speaker 2: get credited and no one believed him and he had

381
00:18:36,576 --> 00:18:38,966
Speaker 2: no way legally to prove it because he didn't have

382
00:18:39,006 --> 00:18:41,506
Speaker 2: the money to do that. And then he gave up

383
00:18:41,546 --> 00:18:43,976
Speaker 2: on his dream then and there. So it's so funny

384
00:18:44,026 --> 00:18:47,476
Speaker 2: that I was a kid and I didn't even know

385
00:18:47,516 --> 00:18:50,296
Speaker 2: this story. And I'm like, I just want to write music.

386
00:18:50,396 --> 00:18:50,936
Speaker 2: So it's funny.

387
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Speaker 1: You didn't know it at that time?

388
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Speaker 2: No, I was like seven, eight, nine when I was

389
00:18:54,456 --> 00:19:00,666
Speaker 2: like making silly, weird poems and copying the melodies I'd

390
00:19:00,726 --> 00:19:03,386
Speaker 2: hear in the TV kids shows I was watching. And

391
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Speaker 2: I remember one time I was watching this like tv

392
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Speaker 2: show and I liked the melody it was like this

393
00:19:09,766 --> 00:19:14,206
Speaker 2: kind of jazzy and I was about eight and I

394
00:19:14,246 --> 00:19:16,606
Speaker 2: pretended that I wrote it but I just changed all

395
00:19:16,626 --> 00:19:19,086
Speaker 2: the words and then I went to dad my dad

396
00:19:19,136 --> 00:19:20,696
Speaker 2: and I was like listen to this song I wrote

397
00:19:22,596 --> 00:19:24,796
Speaker 2: and he was blown away but I didn't tell him

398
00:19:24,876 --> 00:19:26,856
Speaker 2: I'd stolen the song and just changed the lyrics to

399
00:19:26,896 --> 00:19:30,536
Speaker 2: some terrible lyrics about snow falling and a Christmas song

400
00:19:30,596 --> 00:19:31,226
Speaker 2: it was so bad.

401
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Speaker 1: I like how that still sticks with you. That's gnawing

402
00:19:33,256 --> 00:19:35,136
Speaker 1: at you so much. Like I'm a fraud.

403
00:19:35,556 --> 00:19:39,056
Speaker 2: Plagiarism. But then I realized that's what songwriters, some songwriters

404
00:19:39,096 --> 00:19:41,996
Speaker 2: do that. Or it's sampling essentially.

405
00:19:42,146 --> 00:19:44,786
Speaker 1: Yeah. It's a way to get started, you know, like

406
00:19:44,946 --> 00:19:46,396
Speaker 1: copy a bit and make it your own.

407
00:19:46,406 --> 00:19:47,426
Speaker 2: Take a melody and just change the lyrics.

408
00:19:47,446 --> 00:19:49,746
Speaker 1: So you can figure out how to do a whole class.

409
00:19:51,106 --> 00:19:53,366
Speaker 2: But yeah, it's always been in the blood. My family,

410
00:19:54,146 --> 00:19:56,266
Speaker 2: we love music, you know. I grew up in church

411
00:19:56,306 --> 00:19:58,206
Speaker 2: as well. My dad and mom used to sing. Mom

412
00:19:58,246 --> 00:20:00,086
Speaker 2: used to sing in the choir downstairs. used to lead worship.

413
00:20:00,836 --> 00:20:04,716
Speaker 2: So I grew up watching and listening to music being

414
00:20:04,776 --> 00:20:05,816
Speaker 2: sung every Sunday.

415
00:20:05,836 --> 00:20:07,736
Speaker 1: And like in a church where you grew up, what

416
00:20:07,776 --> 00:20:09,976
Speaker 1: was leading worship like? What did that entail?

417
00:20:09,996 --> 00:20:12,476
Speaker 2: It was like, I don't know, like it's not a

418
00:20:12,496 --> 00:20:13,896
Speaker 2: big church, like maybe 40 or 50 people, you know.

419
00:20:16,306 --> 00:20:18,946
Speaker 2: In a church in Tooting, in South London, where I

420
00:20:18,986 --> 00:20:22,956
Speaker 2: grew up. And my mum and dad would just sing.

421
00:20:22,976 --> 00:20:25,656
Speaker 1: It sounded like a gospel choir kind of thing.

422
00:20:25,696 --> 00:20:27,916
Speaker 2: No, it's not big in, like, you know, in America,

423
00:20:27,936 --> 00:20:33,236
Speaker 2: you guys have amazing, like, huge production setups, like, amazing music.

424
00:20:34,016 --> 00:20:36,346
Speaker 2: You know, this is very, like, down to earth. From

425
00:20:36,386 --> 00:20:38,796
Speaker 2: the heart. Do you know what I mean? Very....

426
00:20:40,116 --> 00:20:45,336
Speaker 1: Direct from you guys to God. Mainline in the gospel.

427
00:20:45,356 --> 00:20:50,246
Speaker 2: You know, come as you are, mate.

428
00:20:50,286 --> 00:20:51,766
Speaker 1: Did you listen to much gospel?

429
00:20:52,446 --> 00:20:55,126
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, growing up was a lot of Kirk

430
00:20:55,146 --> 00:20:58,806
Speaker 2: Franklin and Donnie McClurkin and some amazing music I was

431
00:20:58,866 --> 00:21:01,696
Speaker 2: exposed to from a really young age. And the thing

432
00:21:01,736 --> 00:21:05,056
Speaker 2: about gospel as well is it's just musically so complex.

433
00:21:05,886 --> 00:21:07,646
Speaker 2: I don't even think gospel gets enough credit for how

434
00:21:07,746 --> 00:21:11,326
Speaker 2: technically difficult it is to really execute those things. You know,

435
00:21:11,346 --> 00:21:16,176
Speaker 2: you have them, MDs live in the church on a microphone, like, okay,

436
00:21:16,196 --> 00:21:20,716
Speaker 2: we're going to chord four and then five. Hold, hold, hold.

437
00:21:20,916 --> 00:21:24,756
Speaker 2: We're going six, seven. I'm like, this is serious practice.

438
00:21:24,876 --> 00:21:25,906
Speaker 1: Oh, for real. It's for real.

439
00:21:25,926 --> 00:21:26,496
Speaker 2: It's not a joke.

440
00:21:26,646 --> 00:21:29,486
Speaker 1: No, it's great. I want to go back now. So

441
00:21:29,566 --> 00:21:32,626
Speaker 1: you have a few songs for My 21st Century Blues.

442
00:21:32,666 --> 00:21:34,866
Speaker 1: You're still with Polydor. You kind of get in the

443
00:21:34,906 --> 00:21:36,526
Speaker 1: run around. What happens next?

444
00:21:37,246 --> 00:21:42,166
Speaker 2: The understanding from my perspective also was if I was

445
00:21:42,206 --> 00:21:43,676
Speaker 2: going to do an album, it would need to be

446
00:21:43,716 --> 00:21:46,376
Speaker 2: a dance album. So My 21st Century Blues kind of

447
00:21:46,416 --> 00:21:49,516
Speaker 2: got put on the back burner. And I was working

448
00:21:49,716 --> 00:21:54,356
Speaker 2: on a record. I needed to hand in songs 115

449
00:21:54,356 --> 00:21:57,736
Speaker 2: BPM or above. Like it needed to be like that

450
00:21:57,796 --> 00:22:01,986
Speaker 2: kind of sound. So as far as my constraints allowed,

451
00:22:02,106 --> 00:22:04,966
Speaker 2: I set out to make an album that I was

452
00:22:04,986 --> 00:22:07,706
Speaker 2: going to call Dark Dance Songs. And it was going

453
00:22:07,726 --> 00:22:10,466
Speaker 2: to be minor. And I'd say the closest thing I

454
00:22:10,506 --> 00:22:12,206
Speaker 2: had to it was like Black Mascara, which I put

455
00:22:12,266 --> 00:22:14,266
Speaker 2: on my 21st Century Blues. It was all this kind of,

456
00:22:14,266 --> 00:22:17,926
Speaker 2: I was trying to find my compromise. And then, yeah,

457
00:22:17,946 --> 00:22:19,786
Speaker 2: it just ended up that, you know, I had a

458
00:22:19,866 --> 00:22:23,696
Speaker 2: new person who just joined our team and started working

459
00:22:23,736 --> 00:22:26,116
Speaker 2: as my day to day. And she wasn't supposed to

460
00:22:26,156 --> 00:22:27,616
Speaker 2: tell me. We were in the middle of a shoot

461
00:22:27,656 --> 00:22:29,996
Speaker 2: for something else. You know, I'm like maybe four or

462
00:22:30,016 --> 00:22:33,236
Speaker 2: five months into writing this album and I'm becoming invested

463
00:22:33,316 --> 00:22:34,936
Speaker 2: and I'm excited about what it's going to be. And

464
00:22:34,956 --> 00:22:38,856
Speaker 2: then she'd basically just said that if this song you've

465
00:22:38,876 --> 00:22:41,166
Speaker 2: just put out doesn't do good, you're not going to

466
00:22:41,186 --> 00:22:43,226
Speaker 2: be able to do the album. It just got really messy.

467
00:22:43,236 --> 00:22:46,086
Speaker 2: And I was just, I hit just a boiling point,

468
00:22:46,126 --> 00:22:50,046
Speaker 2: a breaking point. I was so angry and so frustrated

469
00:22:50,266 --> 00:22:55,046
Speaker 2: and so pissed off. I felt like just... I was

470
00:22:55,066 --> 00:22:58,766
Speaker 2: just getting treated so unfairly. And I've been trying so

471
00:22:58,846 --> 00:23:02,056
Speaker 2: desperately for the last seven years to prove to them

472
00:23:02,076 --> 00:23:04,656
Speaker 2: that I'm a musician. Like, look, I'm writing for this person. Like,

473
00:23:05,336 --> 00:23:06,816
Speaker 2: are you proud of me yet? Like, I was just

474
00:23:06,856 --> 00:23:07,356
Speaker 2: so desperate.

475
00:23:07,376 --> 00:23:08,856
Speaker 1: And who were you writing for at that time?

476
00:23:09,656 --> 00:23:12,796
Speaker 2: You know, I had a good, healthy amount of cuts,

477
00:23:13,236 --> 00:23:16,516
Speaker 2: you know, in the dance world and with some girl

478
00:23:16,536 --> 00:23:22,546
Speaker 2: bands and some solo artists. And I'd been doing... good things.

479
00:23:22,706 --> 00:23:24,926
Speaker 2: And every time I remember, every time I get caught,

480
00:23:24,946 --> 00:23:27,266
Speaker 2: I'd kind of want to tell them and be like, look, look,

481
00:23:27,306 --> 00:23:32,086
Speaker 2: I was just so desperate for them to believe in me, really.

482
00:23:32,446 --> 00:23:34,466
Speaker 2: I've really tried so hard to achieve that and I

483
00:23:34,486 --> 00:23:38,526
Speaker 2: just failed. So yeah, it just got to a breaking point. Yeah.

484
00:23:39,006 --> 00:23:42,186
Speaker 1: So I know you sent a tweet out at some point.

485
00:23:42,566 --> 00:23:45,766
Speaker 1: Was that a spur of the moment thing? Was that calculated? Like,

486
00:23:45,806 --> 00:23:48,006
Speaker 1: let me just see, we'll try something here or what was.

487
00:23:49,346 --> 00:23:53,606
Speaker 2: Zero strategy and planning went into that moment, I'll tell you.

488
00:23:54,766 --> 00:23:57,566
Speaker 2: I just was like in my head, what the F

489
00:23:57,606 --> 00:23:59,846
Speaker 2: do I have to lose? Like I have nothing to lose.

490
00:24:01,046 --> 00:24:02,716
Speaker 2: I was at a point where I was like, I

491
00:24:02,736 --> 00:24:06,396
Speaker 2: would rather just be a songwriter. Like I've, seven years

492
00:24:06,436 --> 00:24:08,476
Speaker 2: is a long time, especially from a kid, you know,

493
00:24:08,496 --> 00:24:10,536
Speaker 2: and then that pressure of that, I think it's a

494
00:24:10,576 --> 00:24:13,356
Speaker 2: lie personally, but that pressure of, you know, when you're young,

495
00:24:13,416 --> 00:24:16,216
Speaker 2: it's exciting. And as you grow up, you're going to

496
00:24:16,236 --> 00:24:18,496
Speaker 2: miss your window, especially as a woman, like these lies

497
00:24:18,536 --> 00:24:20,666
Speaker 2: you hear. I just got to a place where if

498
00:24:20,746 --> 00:24:22,106
Speaker 2: this is what it is to be an artist, I

499
00:24:22,146 --> 00:24:24,466
Speaker 2: don't want to do this. I hate some of these

500
00:24:24,506 --> 00:24:26,526
Speaker 2: songs I'm putting my name to, that I'm out here

501
00:24:26,636 --> 00:24:29,776
Speaker 2: smiling and pretending I like, trying to sell. This is

502
00:24:29,836 --> 00:24:35,336
Speaker 2: like soul destroying, especially when I'm like in love with

503
00:24:35,376 --> 00:24:37,336
Speaker 2: my craft. I'm in love with music. I was a

504
00:24:37,416 --> 00:24:41,396
Speaker 2: kid when I decided to dedicate my life to work

505
00:24:41,476 --> 00:24:45,776
Speaker 2: in music and wanting to pursue a career. And it

506
00:24:45,816 --> 00:24:50,236
Speaker 2: was breaking my heart. It was just making me so sad. Yeah,

507
00:24:50,256 --> 00:24:51,816
Speaker 2: so I just got to a point, we'd just moved

508
00:24:51,856 --> 00:24:55,406
Speaker 2: house and I was in my room. It didn't have

509
00:24:55,596 --> 00:24:57,346
Speaker 2: a bed in it, so I just remember being on

510
00:24:57,366 --> 00:25:00,066
Speaker 2: a block, mattress on the floor. And the only thing

511
00:25:00,126 --> 00:25:02,206
Speaker 2: I had in my room was a picture of Nina

512
00:25:02,226 --> 00:25:04,766
Speaker 2: Simone and under it it said a quote, it's an

513
00:25:04,826 --> 00:25:07,786
Speaker 2: artist's duty to reflect the times. I remember sat there

514
00:25:07,806 --> 00:25:11,906
Speaker 2: in tears, like, what the hell am I doing? I'm

515
00:25:11,926 --> 00:25:15,696
Speaker 2: not doing anything important. I'm not doing anything that feels right.

516
00:25:16,516 --> 00:25:18,236
Speaker 2: Nina would be so.

517
00:25:19,886 --> 00:25:24,026
Speaker 2: By everything I put to my name. She would be like, ew,

518
00:25:24,506 --> 00:25:26,426
Speaker 2: get her out of my face. I was like, what

519
00:25:26,446 --> 00:25:32,526
Speaker 2: have I become? And I said, no, no, no. And

520
00:25:32,546 --> 00:25:33,446
Speaker 2: I just let it rip.

521
00:25:34,126 --> 00:25:36,166
Speaker 1: That's a very Nina Simone thing to do, let it rip.

522
00:25:36,186 --> 00:25:38,226
Speaker 1: I mean, thankfully it all worked out. I suppose as

523
00:25:38,466 --> 00:25:41,566
Speaker 1: the story goes from that tweet, you guys work something out,

524
00:25:41,606 --> 00:25:43,026
Speaker 1: so they let you go. Does that go back to

525
00:25:43,066 --> 00:25:44,666
Speaker 1: that clause, the key man?

526
00:25:44,746 --> 00:25:47,916
Speaker 2: No, I sadly never had that clause in my contract.

527
00:25:48,266 --> 00:25:52,176
Speaker 2: I think... I just got so lucky in that people

528
00:25:52,736 --> 00:25:56,016
Speaker 2: decided to care about what I'd shared. And I think

529
00:25:56,316 --> 00:25:58,276
Speaker 2: probably there's also a lot of people unaware of all

530
00:25:58,296 --> 00:26:00,596
Speaker 2: the ins and outs of what goes on behind closed doors.

531
00:26:01,556 --> 00:26:03,456
Speaker 2: And I had a lot of news platforms in the

532
00:26:03,596 --> 00:26:06,876
Speaker 2: UK reaching out, wanting to have a conversation and wanting

533
00:26:06,916 --> 00:26:12,006
Speaker 2: to understand more about what's going on and what it

534
00:26:12,016 --> 00:26:14,706
Speaker 2: can be like for a lot of artists sometimes when

535
00:26:14,746 --> 00:26:20,016
Speaker 2: you're having difficulties on seeing eye to eye with the

536
00:26:20,056 --> 00:26:24,616
Speaker 2: teams that you're contractually bound to. And that became leverage.

537
00:26:25,576 --> 00:26:29,866
Speaker 2: And I was able to be like, respectfully, let's leave

538
00:26:29,906 --> 00:26:30,486
Speaker 2: this here now.

539
00:26:31,046 --> 00:26:34,066
Speaker 1: And then you get to put out your album independently. Yeah.

540
00:26:34,506 --> 00:26:36,486
Speaker 1: I don't know that it could have worked out more

541
00:26:36,586 --> 00:26:37,726
Speaker 1: perfectly in the end.

542
00:26:38,126 --> 00:26:41,316
Speaker 2: No, it's honestly how everything's turned out is all I

543
00:26:41,356 --> 00:26:44,016
Speaker 2: can describe it as is a series of just miracle

544
00:26:44,136 --> 00:26:48,476
Speaker 2: after miracle. I think I was so overwhelmed that how

545
00:26:48,556 --> 00:26:50,936
Speaker 2: much music of mine was already out there in the

546
00:26:50,976 --> 00:26:52,696
Speaker 2: world in my head. I was like, how could I

547
00:26:52,756 --> 00:26:56,336
Speaker 2: possibly change the narrative? In the UK, people see me

548
00:26:56,496 --> 00:27:02,176
Speaker 2: as a feature vocalist, a voice, like who's going to care?

549
00:27:02,216 --> 00:27:08,166
Speaker 2: You know, I just got so ridiculously lucky and escapism

550
00:27:08,256 --> 00:27:12,306
Speaker 2: receiving so much attention on TikTok and then all of

551
00:27:12,366 --> 00:27:15,346
Speaker 2: a sudden it getting pushed out to all these new ears.

552
00:27:16,196 --> 00:27:18,636
Speaker 2: And that's the first they've heard of me. And that's so,

553
00:27:19,176 --> 00:27:23,076
Speaker 2: it was so exciting. And like, wow, you know, anything

554
00:27:23,116 --> 00:27:23,976
Speaker 2: really is possible.

555
00:27:23,996 --> 00:27:26,576
Speaker 1: Were you shocked by the reception of Escapism?

556
00:27:26,966 --> 00:27:30,326
Speaker 2: Oh, completely. But I was also so happy because I

557
00:27:30,526 --> 00:27:33,826
Speaker 2: love that song. I remember when we put that out,

558
00:27:33,906 --> 00:27:36,826
Speaker 2: I was like, oh my gosh, like if only people

559
00:27:36,846 --> 00:27:38,986
Speaker 2: were going to be able to hear this song. That

560
00:27:39,026 --> 00:27:41,006
Speaker 2: was my thing in my head. I was like, oh, just,

561
00:27:41,686 --> 00:27:44,626
Speaker 2: if people could just hear this song, you know. I

562
00:27:44,666 --> 00:27:46,786
Speaker 2: remember me and my daddy, I was walking, I was like, dad,

563
00:27:46,846 --> 00:27:52,386
Speaker 2: could you imagine, yeah, if something crazy happened and escapism

564
00:27:52,426 --> 00:27:55,286
Speaker 2: just went really big and became number one. We looked

565
00:27:55,306 --> 00:27:57,946
Speaker 2: at each other and we were like, ah, that'll never happen.

566
00:27:57,966 --> 00:28:01,966
Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean? I remember that conversation

567
00:28:02,046 --> 00:28:04,046
Speaker 2: clear as day. I was like, could you imagine? He

568
00:28:04,066 --> 00:28:06,346
Speaker 2: was like, yeah, I could imagine that would be crazy, right?

569
00:28:06,966 --> 00:28:07,866
Speaker 2: And then bang.

570
00:28:09,006 --> 00:28:09,826
Speaker 1: Came to fruition.

571
00:28:10,286 --> 00:28:10,996
Speaker 2: Wild.

572
00:28:11,026 --> 00:28:12,496
Speaker 1: Did you write that song in Utah? Yeah.

573
00:28:12,926 --> 00:28:13,466
Speaker 2: Yeah, I did.

574
00:28:13,666 --> 00:28:14,606
Speaker 1: What's the story on that?

575
00:28:15,306 --> 00:28:16,526
Speaker 2: We took a road trip.

576
00:28:17,006 --> 00:28:17,746
Speaker 1: Another road trip.

577
00:28:17,906 --> 00:28:18,586
Speaker 2: I like a road trip.

578
00:28:18,606 --> 00:28:19,446
Speaker 1: Those are good for you.

579
00:28:19,666 --> 00:28:22,606
Speaker 2: I like a car. I like a long drive. And also,

580
00:28:22,686 --> 00:28:24,346
Speaker 2: it's good to get out of the city. I think

581
00:28:24,386 --> 00:28:25,946
Speaker 2: when you're in a city and you know people there

582
00:28:25,966 --> 00:28:28,546
Speaker 2: or whatever, it can be distracting. And you can be like,

583
00:28:28,566 --> 00:28:30,696
Speaker 2: someone will be like, do you want to do this? La, la, la.

584
00:28:31,196 --> 00:28:32,496
Speaker 2: And you just want to go somewhere in the middle

585
00:28:32,516 --> 00:28:36,116
Speaker 2: of nowhere where you're just in a peaceful place and

586
00:28:36,156 --> 00:28:38,676
Speaker 2: you just have to be present. It was nice.

587
00:28:38,916 --> 00:28:40,016
Speaker 1: Had you been to Utah?

588
00:28:40,196 --> 00:28:40,516
Speaker 2: Never.

589
00:28:40,536 --> 00:28:41,196
Speaker 1: No. No.

590
00:28:41,876 --> 00:28:43,856
Speaker 2: Well, the two people I went with are good at skiing.

591
00:28:44,056 --> 00:28:45,976
Speaker 2: I'm not very good at skiing. I've only skied once

592
00:28:46,016 --> 00:28:48,836
Speaker 2: before in the school trip. I decided to join them

593
00:28:48,856 --> 00:28:52,636
Speaker 2: for skiing in between riding. And it was a disaster.

594
00:28:53,196 --> 00:28:57,296
Speaker 2: These two are like cross-country, like off-piste mountain freaking skiers, yeah?

595
00:28:57,456 --> 00:28:59,836
Speaker 2: They're like, don't worry, we'll stay together. We'll go slow.

596
00:28:59,856 --> 00:29:02,656
Speaker 2: It's not encouraging. I'm not going to do it. No,

597
00:29:02,666 --> 00:29:05,846
Speaker 2: I took a wrong turn in. Black run. What? The

598
00:29:05,886 --> 00:29:09,006
Speaker 2: only way is down this whatever foot drop. Absolutely not.

599
00:29:09,356 --> 00:29:09,816
Speaker 1: What'd you do?

600
00:29:09,916 --> 00:29:11,576
Speaker 2: And my friend's screaming at me like, you have to

601
00:29:11,656 --> 00:29:14,336
Speaker 2: ski down. I was like, bitch, I ain't skiing down.

602
00:29:15,776 --> 00:29:18,316
Speaker 2: I'm walking. She's like, Rachel. And there's all these like

603
00:29:18,376 --> 00:29:21,376
Speaker 2: four-year-old kids like just gunning it down the hill.

604
00:29:22,076 --> 00:29:23,296
Speaker 1: This isn't a drive.

605
00:29:23,316 --> 00:29:25,666
Speaker 2: It took me about an hour to get down. It

606
00:29:25,846 --> 00:29:28,546
Speaker 2: was hell. After that, I left them to it. I

607
00:29:28,566 --> 00:29:31,646
Speaker 2: went to the campfire near the entrance and just made friends.

608
00:29:32,046 --> 00:29:33,906
Speaker 2: But yeah, skiing, it's going to be a while before

609
00:29:33,926 --> 00:29:34,466
Speaker 2: I go back there.

610
00:29:34,896 --> 00:29:36,756
Speaker 1: Maybe take some time on that. Yeah.

611
00:29:36,816 --> 00:29:39,416
Speaker 2: But the songwriting was productive. We were there for seven

612
00:29:39,456 --> 00:29:42,466
Speaker 2: days and it was such a nice time. And we

613
00:29:42,536 --> 00:29:46,146
Speaker 2: wrote basically the other half of the album that was missing.

614
00:29:46,786 --> 00:29:50,356
Speaker 2: It all started with titles. Titles are... usually how a

615
00:29:50,396 --> 00:29:53,816
Speaker 2: song will start for me. So I had title Mary Jane,

616
00:29:54,076 --> 00:29:58,646
Speaker 2: Environment and Anxiety, Escapism, Body Dysmorphia. So those are my

617
00:29:58,686 --> 00:30:01,466
Speaker 2: four titles. There was one or two more that we wrote,

618
00:30:01,506 --> 00:30:02,366
Speaker 2: but that didn't make it.

619
00:30:03,146 --> 00:30:07,346
Speaker 1: Environmental anxiety, speaking of the Nina Simone quote, an artist's

620
00:30:07,366 --> 00:30:08,476
Speaker 1: duty is to reflect the times you're in.

621
00:30:08,506 --> 00:30:10,686
Speaker 2: I mean, it's so intense.

622
00:30:10,786 --> 00:30:13,226
Speaker 1: It's an intense song. It's so intense. How did you

623
00:30:13,286 --> 00:30:14,286
Speaker 1: capture that so well?

624
00:30:14,746 --> 00:30:17,826
Speaker 2: We booked a log cabin and we were staring across.

625
00:30:18,546 --> 00:30:20,166
Speaker 2: It was like a mountain and some trees. And we

626
00:30:20,186 --> 00:30:22,386
Speaker 2: were like, wow, so beautiful. It was in the morning.

627
00:30:23,266 --> 00:30:27,026
Speaker 2: And Mike Sabbath, the producer who I made this album with,

628
00:30:27,566 --> 00:30:30,436
Speaker 2: the guy is so eccentric. we got downstairs and he'd

629
00:30:30,476 --> 00:30:34,316
Speaker 2: made this little, like, this, like, weird, like, sound. He'd, like,

630
00:30:34,376 --> 00:30:36,116
Speaker 2: morphed his voice to sound like a chipmunk or whatever

631
00:30:36,156 --> 00:30:37,816
Speaker 2: and he was just looping around and around and he

632
00:30:37,836 --> 00:30:40,236
Speaker 2: was playing these weird bells and I was like, Mike,

633
00:30:40,256 --> 00:30:42,796
Speaker 2: you've lost your absolute mind but, like, let's fucking go,

634
00:30:42,816 --> 00:30:44,796
Speaker 2: do you know what I mean? And we were looking

635
00:30:44,816 --> 00:30:47,076
Speaker 2: at the view and we was like, damn, like, we're

636
00:30:47,096 --> 00:30:49,146
Speaker 2: being so cruel to our planet and we just started

637
00:30:49,186 --> 00:30:51,266
Speaker 2: on a tangent, you know, and I think it's something

638
00:30:51,286 --> 00:30:53,206
Speaker 2: a lot of us are worried about but are powerless

639
00:30:53,226 --> 00:30:57,786
Speaker 2: to really do any actual change or it's something that

640
00:30:57,826 --> 00:30:59,796
Speaker 2: needs to come from Our governments.

641
00:31:00,336 --> 00:31:00,476
Speaker 1: Yeah.

642
00:31:00,496 --> 00:31:01,936
Speaker 2: A lot of people don't care.

643
00:31:02,236 --> 00:31:03,916
Speaker 1: You kind of sum it all up and put a

644
00:31:03,976 --> 00:31:06,996
Speaker 1: bow on it in like three minutes and 10 seconds.

645
00:31:07,016 --> 00:31:10,046
Speaker 1: It's like, yo, wow. Like you kind of like distill

646
00:31:10,566 --> 00:31:13,486
Speaker 1: all the anxieties of kind of our world at large

647
00:31:13,606 --> 00:31:17,966
Speaker 1: and all the problems and issues and Boris Johnson's on coke.

648
00:31:20,646 --> 00:31:21,246
Speaker 2: We all know it.

649
00:31:21,266 --> 00:31:22,306
Speaker 1: I don't even know if that's true.

650
00:31:22,626 --> 00:31:23,426
Speaker 2: Oh, come on.

651
00:31:23,466 --> 00:31:24,626
Speaker 1: Seems like it's true.

652
00:31:24,646 --> 00:31:28,176
Speaker 2: I saw this article, yeah, which is so funny. But

653
00:31:28,216 --> 00:31:31,316
Speaker 2: they tested the sewage. I don't know who was testing

654
00:31:31,336 --> 00:31:34,266
Speaker 2: the sewage of the Houses of Parliament. And they found

655
00:31:34,606 --> 00:31:39,236
Speaker 2: such a high concentration of cocaine in the sewage. I

656
00:31:39,276 --> 00:31:40,796
Speaker 2: don't even know if we should be talking about this.

657
00:31:41,186 --> 00:31:44,176
Speaker 2: But meanwhile, you're arresting kids for possession of smoking a

658
00:31:44,196 --> 00:31:45,516
Speaker 2: little bit of weed on the street. Do you know

659
00:31:45,536 --> 00:31:47,256
Speaker 2: what I mean? Putting them in jail for that. Meanwhile,

660
00:31:47,276 --> 00:31:50,016
Speaker 2: you're all in there doing coke. It's just not fair.

661
00:31:50,036 --> 00:31:50,116
Speaker 1: Yeah.

662
00:31:50,776 --> 00:31:52,116
Speaker 2: None of it's fair, is it? Yeah.

663
00:31:52,176 --> 00:31:53,356
Speaker 1: But I'm glad you're speaking to us.

664
00:31:53,416 --> 00:31:54,316
Speaker 2: I'm glad someone like you.

665
00:31:54,386 --> 00:31:54,836
Speaker 1: Nah, mate.

666
00:31:54,856 --> 00:31:57,006
Speaker 2: We've got to put all these things on blast. It's incorrect.

667
00:31:57,026 --> 00:31:58,706
Speaker 1: And it's a beautiful song. So those are all voices

668
00:31:58,766 --> 00:31:59,646
Speaker 1: on that intro, right?

669
00:31:59,886 --> 00:31:59,986
Speaker 2: Yeah.

670
00:32:00,026 --> 00:32:02,086
Speaker 1: All those sounds, it's all a voice manipulated and then

671
00:32:02,106 --> 00:32:05,406
Speaker 1: your voice. Mm-hmm. Incredible. You harmonize with yourself really well.

672
00:32:05,506 --> 00:32:08,156
Speaker 2: I love harmonies. When a voice can become a pad

673
00:32:08,196 --> 00:32:10,396
Speaker 2: or a synth or something as well, it's exciting, you know?

674
00:32:10,436 --> 00:32:12,476
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a really gorgeous sound. Your voice, like when

675
00:32:12,516 --> 00:32:13,636
Speaker 1: it builds out like that.

676
00:32:13,656 --> 00:32:14,856
Speaker 2: Thank you. It's gorgeous.

677
00:32:15,356 --> 00:32:19,196
Speaker 1: Escapism too. I love the two different perspectives, two different voices.

678
00:32:19,476 --> 00:32:21,626
Speaker 1: It's like you're in the story and then you kind

679
00:32:21,646 --> 00:32:23,766
Speaker 1: of get like, you're narrating it for us. Right. It's

680
00:32:23,786 --> 00:32:25,986
Speaker 1: just like a cool thing to do in a song.

681
00:32:26,006 --> 00:32:29,446
Speaker 2: I love to bounce between first person and third person.

682
00:32:30,066 --> 00:32:34,176
Speaker 2: I find that fun. And like, Yeah, the narration aspect

683
00:32:34,576 --> 00:32:36,756
Speaker 2: of it. I always like, it's funny, sometimes I'll be

684
00:32:36,796 --> 00:32:39,556
Speaker 2: writing and all the other day, me and my creative

685
00:32:39,576 --> 00:32:41,916
Speaker 2: director were trying to do something and I kept, I

686
00:32:41,936 --> 00:32:44,336
Speaker 2: realized I just love to mix. He's like, you know,

687
00:32:44,386 --> 00:32:47,466
Speaker 2: this sentence is third person and this sentence is first person.

688
00:32:47,506 --> 00:32:48,826
Speaker 2: And I was like, you know, I like mixing it.

689
00:32:49,406 --> 00:32:49,766
Speaker 2: Fuck it.

690
00:32:50,106 --> 00:32:51,526
Speaker 1: You don't mind mixing tenses.

691
00:32:51,546 --> 00:32:51,926
Speaker 2: Why not?

692
00:32:52,166 --> 00:32:55,326
Speaker 1: Yeah. After this last break, we'll come back with the

693
00:32:55,366 --> 00:33:01,986
Speaker 1: rest of my conversation with Ray. We're back with the

694
00:33:02,016 --> 00:33:05,506
Speaker 1: rest of my conversation with Ray. Let's talk about Mary

695
00:33:05,526 --> 00:33:07,646
Speaker 1: Jane a little bit. What made you choose that as

696
00:33:07,726 --> 00:33:08,366
Speaker 1: a song title?

697
00:33:08,886 --> 00:33:11,606
Speaker 2: All the songs we wrote in Utah, you know, I

698
00:33:11,626 --> 00:33:16,046
Speaker 2: wanted to address kind of these subjects kind of pretty

699
00:33:16,086 --> 00:33:19,526
Speaker 2: head on. And I think I've always had a very

700
00:33:19,636 --> 00:33:23,596
Speaker 2: kind of addictive personality. And I think especially because I

701
00:33:23,636 --> 00:33:27,566
Speaker 2: was playing this like sweet little girl. pop artist kind

702
00:33:27,606 --> 00:33:30,026
Speaker 2: of character, or at least that's what I was attempting

703
00:33:30,086 --> 00:33:32,106
Speaker 2: to sell. But really behind closed doors, I was just

704
00:33:32,566 --> 00:33:36,046
Speaker 2: really not dealing with things great. And I was just outside,

705
00:33:36,066 --> 00:33:38,156
Speaker 2: not even outside. I was just moving mad.

706
00:33:39,136 --> 00:33:39,356
Speaker 1: Yeah.

707
00:33:39,396 --> 00:33:42,036
Speaker 2: And I got trapped into some pretty intense kind of

708
00:33:43,216 --> 00:33:46,416
Speaker 2: cycles and picked up some unhealthy habits. You know how

709
00:33:46,496 --> 00:33:49,476
Speaker 2: it be. Sometimes also you become really good at hiding it.

710
00:33:49,496 --> 00:33:51,906
Speaker 2: I was just distant from my family. I was just

711
00:33:51,986 --> 00:33:53,226
Speaker 2: lost and not happy.

712
00:33:53,246 --> 00:33:54,986
Speaker 1: Did your family kind of recognize what was going on?

713
00:33:55,416 --> 00:33:57,316
Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't really see them. I think it was

714
00:33:57,336 --> 00:33:59,396
Speaker 2: like a year or whatever. I saw my parents like

715
00:33:59,456 --> 00:34:01,536
Speaker 2: twice in a year, which is really unlike me. Now

716
00:34:01,576 --> 00:34:03,966
Speaker 2: my parents are like around me all the time and

717
00:34:03,986 --> 00:34:06,206
Speaker 2: I tell them everything and I love them. But yeah,

718
00:34:06,226 --> 00:34:08,466
Speaker 2: there was just a period of time where I was

719
00:34:08,526 --> 00:34:12,946
Speaker 2: fully on escapism vibes. Yeah, I mean, just running away

720
00:34:12,986 --> 00:34:16,996
Speaker 2: from reality. There's a lot of these subjects which I

721
00:34:17,096 --> 00:34:20,796
Speaker 2: find there's no real place to have these conversations or

722
00:34:20,836 --> 00:34:23,336
Speaker 2: in a space where you don't feel judged or you

723
00:34:23,376 --> 00:34:27,726
Speaker 2: don't feel disgusting or embarrassed. You know, I talk in

724
00:34:27,746 --> 00:34:30,406
Speaker 2: the song about codeine, you know, and there's a lot

725
00:34:30,446 --> 00:34:32,886
Speaker 2: of us who can develop these kind of dependencies on

726
00:34:32,966 --> 00:34:35,686
Speaker 2: things and it's so easy to keep a secret and

727
00:34:35,726 --> 00:34:37,736
Speaker 2: hide it and it can get dangerous. And it did

728
00:34:37,836 --> 00:34:39,916
Speaker 2: for me for a bit, you know? So I just

729
00:34:39,956 --> 00:34:42,896
Speaker 2: wanted to write a song kind of weird, twisted kind

730
00:34:42,916 --> 00:34:44,996
Speaker 2: of love song. I think it's one of those things

731
00:34:45,056 --> 00:34:48,276
Speaker 2: as well. Once you open Pandora's box, you know what

732
00:34:48,296 --> 00:34:49,966
Speaker 2: they say, it's, it's hard to close it.

733
00:34:50,136 --> 00:34:54,656
Speaker 1: Yeah. Were you ever wary of, I mean, Mary Jane, escapism,

734
00:34:55,636 --> 00:34:57,976
Speaker 1: body dysmorphia. Was there ever a part of you that

735
00:34:58,116 --> 00:35:01,336
Speaker 1: felt like, maybe I don't want this on the, because then,

736
00:35:01,676 --> 00:35:04,616
Speaker 1: of course, just from the bit of press that I've

737
00:35:05,276 --> 00:35:08,736
Speaker 1: picked up about you over time, it's like, wow, people

738
00:35:08,796 --> 00:35:12,126
Speaker 1: are asking you really, like, heavy, like, I'm like, I

739
00:35:12,146 --> 00:35:13,486
Speaker 1: don't know if I want to talk about this shit

740
00:35:13,566 --> 00:35:16,466
Speaker 1: all the time. I just was like, how, did you

741
00:35:16,506 --> 00:35:18,666
Speaker 1: ever feel worried about that? Do you, not do you

742
00:35:18,686 --> 00:35:20,386
Speaker 1: regret it, but does ever a part of you feel like, damn,

743
00:35:20,406 --> 00:35:21,666
Speaker 1: I don't know if I really want to, you know,

744
00:35:21,686 --> 00:35:24,496
Speaker 1: it's like, You know what I think?

745
00:35:25,336 --> 00:35:26,996
Speaker 2: I think it's a conscious choice you have to make

746
00:35:27,036 --> 00:35:28,976
Speaker 2: as an artist. Like, what kind of artist am I

747
00:35:29,016 --> 00:35:34,566
Speaker 2: going to be? There are incredible artists who don't let

748
00:35:34,586 --> 00:35:36,926
Speaker 2: you in on that side of their life, who close

749
00:35:36,966 --> 00:35:41,826
Speaker 2: those doors and they deliver perfection. And that's a whole

750
00:35:42,046 --> 00:35:44,316
Speaker 2: other thing because then you're just dealing with all of

751
00:35:44,356 --> 00:35:47,996
Speaker 2: those things behind closed doors, but you present this. And

752
00:35:48,536 --> 00:35:51,676
Speaker 2: I have so much respect for those kinds of artists.

753
00:35:51,776 --> 00:35:54,256
Speaker 2: And that in itself... It takes a whole load of

754
00:35:55,316 --> 00:36:00,736
Speaker 2: bravery and rehearsals and skill and delivery. That's a whole

755
00:36:00,756 --> 00:36:02,856
Speaker 2: other thing. And then I think there's the other end

756
00:36:02,896 --> 00:36:05,196
Speaker 2: of it where it's like, I'm going to be an

757
00:36:05,256 --> 00:36:07,566
Speaker 2: open book. But then at the same time, that also

758
00:36:07,626 --> 00:36:13,086
Speaker 2: comes with people who you don't know. Knowing things about

759
00:36:13,126 --> 00:36:15,846
Speaker 2: me that four years ago, my own family didn't know.

760
00:36:15,866 --> 00:36:19,526
Speaker 2: I mean, it's an interesting thing. choice I've made. And

761
00:36:19,746 --> 00:36:22,706
Speaker 2: definitely there are days where it's like, damn, I really

762
00:36:22,926 --> 00:36:26,486
Speaker 2: just did a lot. And days on stage, like, why

763
00:36:26,706 --> 00:36:29,336
Speaker 2: did I decide to be so open about this? But

764
00:36:30,216 --> 00:36:32,776
Speaker 2: for all of the times I do find it tricky

765
00:36:32,896 --> 00:36:36,116
Speaker 2: or overwhelming, I do think that's the kind of artist

766
00:36:36,456 --> 00:36:38,816
Speaker 2: I want to be, even though it's not always easy.

767
00:36:38,916 --> 00:36:39,556
Speaker 2: Does that make sense?

768
00:36:39,616 --> 00:36:41,136
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, it kind of does make you a

769
00:36:41,216 --> 00:36:44,996
Speaker 1: real writer in a way, in that writers really want

770
00:36:45,056 --> 00:36:48,846
Speaker 1: to write about real human experience and are kind of

771
00:36:48,866 --> 00:36:51,966
Speaker 1: always drudging and mining that stuff all the time you

772
00:36:52,006 --> 00:36:53,806
Speaker 1: know like kind of the misery in a sense and

773
00:36:53,846 --> 00:36:57,126
Speaker 1: sometimes the joy and all that too but kind of

774
00:36:57,166 --> 00:36:59,816
Speaker 1: moving between those two in music you know i think

775
00:36:59,856 --> 00:37:01,856
Speaker 1: some people shy away from that it's.

776
00:37:01,756 --> 00:37:04,536
Speaker 2: It's difficult but also it's what you feel comfortable or

777
00:37:04,616 --> 00:37:08,196
Speaker 2: what your purpose is yeah some artists purposes to entertain

778
00:37:08,416 --> 00:37:11,396
Speaker 2: and damn well do they entertain you know and i

779
00:37:11,476 --> 00:37:14,136
Speaker 2: think for me as a writer i kind of see

780
00:37:14,196 --> 00:37:17,806
Speaker 2: it as you're creating a commentary on the human experience

781
00:37:18,106 --> 00:37:21,316
Speaker 2: from your perspective. And that does require honesty. I think

782
00:37:21,356 --> 00:37:26,276
Speaker 2: vulnerability is so important and it's difficult sometimes. It can

783
00:37:26,296 --> 00:37:29,356
Speaker 2: be very difficult. For me personally, in my taste, I

784
00:37:29,376 --> 00:37:32,056
Speaker 2: always find the music that I connect to the most

785
00:37:32,606 --> 00:37:34,646
Speaker 2: is where I feel just like I've been let in

786
00:37:34,806 --> 00:37:40,186
Speaker 2: and I'm just hearing candidness. It hurts sometimes. It's like, oh, sugar.

787
00:37:40,766 --> 00:37:43,086
Speaker 2: Or it's like, not even for me, just as a listener,

788
00:37:43,126 --> 00:37:45,086
Speaker 2: you know, you're like, Oh my God, this is bringing

789
00:37:45,186 --> 00:37:47,626
Speaker 2: tears to my eyes. You know, if someone's telling you

790
00:37:47,646 --> 00:37:49,966
Speaker 2: a story and you're just, you have goosebumps all over

791
00:37:49,986 --> 00:37:53,006
Speaker 2: your skin and you're completely enchanted. And then it takes

792
00:37:53,046 --> 00:37:56,266
Speaker 2: you to somewhere in your life and then provides some

793
00:37:56,286 --> 00:37:59,246
Speaker 2: sort of aid or band aid, we say plaster, or

794
00:37:59,326 --> 00:38:01,646
Speaker 2: some sort of hug or some sort of space for

795
00:38:01,686 --> 00:38:03,846
Speaker 2: you to cry and feel it. So as a listener,

796
00:38:03,866 --> 00:38:06,796
Speaker 2: that's where I feel most moved.

797
00:38:06,816 --> 00:38:07,336
Speaker 1: Yeah.

798
00:38:07,676 --> 00:38:09,196
Speaker 2: But it's definitely not an easy thing to do.

799
00:38:09,596 --> 00:38:12,296
Speaker 1: Was Ice Cream Man, was that a difficult song to

800
00:38:12,716 --> 00:38:13,876
Speaker 1: record and to.

801
00:38:14,126 --> 00:38:15,426
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, without a doubt.

802
00:38:15,446 --> 00:38:15,906
Speaker 1: Yeah.

803
00:38:16,146 --> 00:38:21,946
Speaker 2: Definitely. The whole... Yeah. That one's deep. It's just deep.

804
00:38:21,966 --> 00:38:22,086
Speaker 1: Yeah.

805
00:38:22,906 --> 00:38:26,846
Speaker 2: Because, my God, that song, it's just... I'm still, you know,

806
00:38:26,906 --> 00:38:28,946
Speaker 2: like a lot of us are working through those things

807
00:38:29,026 --> 00:38:31,626
Speaker 2: in it. But I got a message the other day

808
00:38:31,726 --> 00:38:34,406
Speaker 2: on my Instagram DMs. I try not to spend too

809
00:38:34,426 --> 00:38:36,856
Speaker 2: much time on my socials and stuff, but... Every now

810
00:38:36,876 --> 00:38:38,696
Speaker 2: and then I have a little look and it was

811
00:38:38,736 --> 00:38:40,836
Speaker 2: maybe about two days ago and I got this message

812
00:38:40,876 --> 00:38:43,936
Speaker 2: from this lady and she was about in her 50s

813
00:38:44,276 --> 00:38:48,166
Speaker 2: and she sent me this long, beautiful message. It was

814
00:38:48,186 --> 00:38:52,026
Speaker 2: a really sad message about her life and she was

815
00:38:53,546 --> 00:38:55,426
Speaker 2: telling me about some of the things she went through

816
00:38:56,126 --> 00:38:59,306
Speaker 2: as a child and working through it and it was

817
00:38:59,406 --> 00:39:02,986
Speaker 2: so moving. I was so moved. I read it about

818
00:39:03,086 --> 00:39:05,006
Speaker 2: six times. It even brings tears to my eyes now.

819
00:39:05,726 --> 00:39:08,226
Speaker 2: And I was just like, my goodness, like some of

820
00:39:08,286 --> 00:39:12,176
Speaker 2: us are carrying so much. And she just expressed at

821
00:39:12,216 --> 00:39:14,996
Speaker 2: the end of the message that she was really grateful

822
00:39:15,036 --> 00:39:18,296
Speaker 2: for that song because it gave her the confidence to

823
00:39:18,336 --> 00:39:21,016
Speaker 2: talk to someone that she loved about something she'd been

824
00:39:21,056 --> 00:39:23,716
Speaker 2: saying about her whole life. There are so many of

825
00:39:23,796 --> 00:39:27,286
Speaker 2: us out here dealing with things, carrying things, holding things.

826
00:39:27,846 --> 00:39:29,826
Speaker 2: There's no instruction manual on what to do. This is

827
00:39:29,866 --> 00:39:32,506
Speaker 2: where music is like medicine and provides a space of

828
00:39:32,566 --> 00:39:35,986
Speaker 2: healing or reflection. So as trick is that song is

829
00:39:36,146 --> 00:39:38,346
Speaker 2: for me on the worst of days i'm just so

830
00:39:39,186 --> 00:39:42,496
Speaker 2: grateful that even if it was only her you know

831
00:39:42,526 --> 00:39:45,576
Speaker 2: that that's even been able to provide some sort of

832
00:39:46,376 --> 00:39:47,636
Speaker 2: i don't even know what the words are but i

833
00:39:47,676 --> 00:39:48,716
Speaker 2: was just so moved.

834
00:39:49,156 --> 00:39:50,356
Speaker 1: Do you perform this song.

835
00:39:50,256 --> 00:39:53,856
Speaker 2: Yeah i do no sometimes it's sad sometimes i do

836
00:39:53,916 --> 00:39:56,856
Speaker 2: cry a lot sometimes i sing it and i feel

837
00:39:56,876 --> 00:40:01,326
Speaker 2: really powerful I feel really safe inside my music. I

838
00:40:01,366 --> 00:40:03,446
Speaker 2: think that's another thing that maybe allows me to be

839
00:40:03,546 --> 00:40:07,786
Speaker 2: so honest and vulnerable. It feels like if I was

840
00:40:07,846 --> 00:40:12,006
Speaker 2: just to say some of the lyrics in this conversation

841
00:40:12,046 --> 00:40:14,366
Speaker 2: with you, but without a melody and without the safe

842
00:40:14,406 --> 00:40:17,986
Speaker 2: space inside a song, I would not be comfortable to

843
00:40:18,006 --> 00:40:22,326
Speaker 2: do that at all, which is weird. But it feels

844
00:40:22,346 --> 00:40:25,566
Speaker 2: like within a song, it's on my terms in the

845
00:40:25,846 --> 00:40:30,526
Speaker 2: sonic bed that feels... like it's correct to lie and

846
00:40:31,266 --> 00:40:35,286
Speaker 2: it feels safe it feels like no one can spin

847
00:40:35,326 --> 00:40:40,496
Speaker 2: this or nobody can have an opinion too negative besides

848
00:40:40,556 --> 00:40:43,096
Speaker 2: not liking the song but they can't be like well

849
00:40:43,156 --> 00:40:46,556
Speaker 2: i don't believe her well this and that you know

850
00:40:46,716 --> 00:40:49,776
Speaker 2: all the scrutiny that you can get from being open

851
00:40:49,916 --> 00:40:52,736
Speaker 2: and transparent about your life but without a song yeah.

852
00:40:52,876 --> 00:40:56,836
Speaker 1: You have a new single genesis and it's really great

853
00:40:57,256 --> 00:41:00,006
Speaker 1: but um When it started, I was like, okay, all right.

854
00:41:01,536 --> 00:41:04,936
Speaker 1: And then three quarters of the way through or halfway through,

855
00:41:05,216 --> 00:41:08,716
Speaker 1: there's a change. And it's like the most uplifting. The

856
00:41:09,576 --> 00:41:12,166
Speaker 1: first half is a little like, oh, shoot. I was

857
00:41:12,236 --> 00:41:14,586
Speaker 1: a little worried. I was like, is she still in

858
00:41:14,646 --> 00:41:15,546
Speaker 1: a bath?

859
00:41:15,606 --> 00:41:16,446
Speaker 2: What's going on?

860
00:41:16,966 --> 00:41:19,126
Speaker 1: And by the end, I'm like, oh, shit. It feels

861
00:41:19,166 --> 00:41:22,516
Speaker 1: like I'm in Preservation Hall in New Orleans. Oh. And

862
00:41:22,576 --> 00:41:24,876
Speaker 1: it's like, the lyric is, what's the lyric about light? Like,

863
00:41:24,936 --> 00:41:25,586
Speaker 1: let in light in.

864
00:41:25,596 --> 00:41:26,316
Speaker 2: Let there be light, yeah.

865
00:41:26,336 --> 00:41:28,296
Speaker 1: Let there be light. And it feels maybe more like

866
00:41:28,376 --> 00:41:32,076
Speaker 1: where your life is now than some of the album,

867
00:41:32,176 --> 00:41:33,816
Speaker 1: you know. I don't know if that feels true to you.

868
00:41:34,716 --> 00:41:36,666
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the plan is we'll put out the

869
00:41:36,706 --> 00:41:40,486
Speaker 2: full seven minutes and then the week after, kind of

870
00:41:40,566 --> 00:41:43,906
Speaker 2: split them into three different songs. So you have Genesis 1,

871
00:41:43,906 --> 00:41:46,706
Speaker 2: which is that kind of really sad reflection in the mirror,

872
00:41:46,926 --> 00:41:51,466
Speaker 2: depressing conversation with yourself, song one. Song two is that

873
00:41:52,096 --> 00:41:55,816
Speaker 2: heavy whatever sound and then song three is the kind

874
00:41:55,836 --> 00:41:58,376
Speaker 2: of big band vibe at the end and I think

875
00:41:59,056 --> 00:42:00,956
Speaker 2: you can almost see it as maybe an EP or

876
00:42:00,976 --> 00:42:03,126
Speaker 2: something but I wanted to put all the songs in

877
00:42:03,326 --> 00:42:05,926
Speaker 2: one and kind of force you to try and have

878
00:42:05,966 --> 00:42:07,886
Speaker 2: to listen to all of it just in one which

879
00:42:07,926 --> 00:42:11,546
Speaker 2: is a lot and I think I really took like

880
00:42:11,586 --> 00:42:13,896
Speaker 2: a lot of passion and a lot of time went

881
00:42:13,956 --> 00:42:16,976
Speaker 2: into the lyrics for me and and making sure that

882
00:42:17,276 --> 00:42:18,956
Speaker 2: it said what it needed to say I wanted it

883
00:42:18,996 --> 00:42:21,946
Speaker 2: to be cutting and and Again, honest, and I wanted

884
00:42:21,986 --> 00:42:28,316
Speaker 2: to talk about themes of, you know, suicide, which is, again, just,

885
00:42:29,216 --> 00:42:33,076
Speaker 2: I think also even for young men, I think there's

886
00:42:33,096 --> 00:42:35,816
Speaker 2: this kind of thing of, like, just feeling things and

887
00:42:35,876 --> 00:42:39,976
Speaker 2: not talking about it. I recently lost someone who was

888
00:42:39,996 --> 00:42:42,336
Speaker 2: really close to the family, just gone, you know, and

889
00:42:42,816 --> 00:42:45,456
Speaker 2: you didn't even know that they were going for anything.

890
00:42:46,036 --> 00:42:47,586
Speaker 1: Suicide? Yeah. Mm-hmm.

891
00:42:48,306 --> 00:42:51,026
Speaker 2: There's a lot of people just, as we know, fighting

892
00:42:51,066 --> 00:42:52,826
Speaker 2: a lot of stuff. I wanted to create a song

893
00:42:52,866 --> 00:42:56,256
Speaker 2: that felt like if you are going through anything like

894
00:42:56,276 --> 00:42:58,576
Speaker 2: that or you do feel in any sort of way

895
00:42:59,776 --> 00:43:02,916
Speaker 2: burdened or like you're going through a really tough time,

896
00:43:03,036 --> 00:43:05,156
Speaker 2: I wanted to create a piece of music that you

897
00:43:05,216 --> 00:43:08,756
Speaker 2: could allow yourself to feel it in the beginning. And

898
00:43:08,796 --> 00:43:11,326
Speaker 2: then the music kind of starts to lift you up

899
00:43:11,366 --> 00:43:13,246
Speaker 2: in the middle, even though the lyric is still heavy,

900
00:43:14,426 --> 00:43:16,906
Speaker 2: taking you maybe to a more powerful place to process

901
00:43:16,946 --> 00:43:20,556
Speaker 2: that emotion. And then by the end, hopefully feeling some

902
00:43:20,576 --> 00:43:23,556
Speaker 2: positivity and some hope. So I wanted it to be

903
00:43:23,596 --> 00:43:26,976
Speaker 2: this journey of if anyone even relates to one of

904
00:43:27,016 --> 00:43:29,216
Speaker 2: the sentences in that song, you know, and I was

905
00:43:29,276 --> 00:43:32,046
Speaker 2: trying to create an open scape of my honesty, but

906
00:43:32,066 --> 00:43:35,886
Speaker 2: then also what else are people I love or people

907
00:43:35,906 --> 00:43:38,646
Speaker 2: I don't even know going through or need from this song.

908
00:43:39,156 --> 00:43:40,156
Speaker 2: So it's quite a deep one.

909
00:43:40,436 --> 00:43:43,316
Speaker 1: Yeah. It is. I'm so grateful you left us with

910
00:43:44,116 --> 00:43:45,306
Speaker 1: the hopefulness at the end.

911
00:43:45,336 --> 00:43:47,596
Speaker 2: We needed some hope at the end. We absolutely needed

912
00:43:47,616 --> 00:43:49,666
Speaker 2: some hope. I'm so grateful you left us with that.

913
00:43:50,356 --> 00:43:52,626
Speaker 1: Yeah, man. How are you going to do that live?

914
00:43:53,406 --> 00:43:58,126
Speaker 2: Well, look, in my dream scenario, there will always be many,

915
00:43:58,186 --> 00:44:02,266
Speaker 2: many musicians on the stage. From a cost efficiency perspective,

916
00:44:03,046 --> 00:44:06,816
Speaker 2: we're working that out. But, you know, who needs to

917
00:44:06,836 --> 00:44:09,016
Speaker 2: make loads of money? Like, who needs to do that?

918
00:44:09,116 --> 00:44:09,296
Speaker 1: Sure.

919
00:44:09,316 --> 00:44:10,016
Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean?

920
00:44:10,116 --> 00:44:13,436
Speaker 1: Travel with the big band. Bring them out. You worked

921
00:44:13,456 --> 00:44:16,266
Speaker 1: with Dark Child on the single? I did, yeah. I

922
00:44:16,286 --> 00:44:17,046
Speaker 1: love Dark Child.

923
00:44:17,186 --> 00:44:18,026
Speaker 2: Rodney, man.

924
00:44:18,086 --> 00:44:19,106
Speaker 1: How did you hook up with Rodney?

925
00:44:19,126 --> 00:44:21,586
Speaker 2: That's my bro. I actually met him when I was

926
00:44:21,626 --> 00:44:23,446
Speaker 2: a kid, like, my first trip to L.A. when I

927
00:44:23,446 --> 00:44:25,906
Speaker 2: was about 17 and I was taking some meetings. And

928
00:44:25,926 --> 00:44:27,786
Speaker 2: I remember at the time I hadn't made anything good

929
00:44:27,826 --> 00:44:31,846
Speaker 2: enough to, like, really capture his attention. But I remember

930
00:44:31,886 --> 00:44:34,676
Speaker 2: thinking in my head, like, one day, he's going to

931
00:44:34,716 --> 00:44:37,056
Speaker 2: hear my music and be like, she's sick. Like, I

932
00:44:37,076 --> 00:44:40,096
Speaker 2: remember that being a goal. And then we got connected

933
00:44:40,176 --> 00:44:43,286
Speaker 2: and maybe like two years ago and got in the

934
00:44:43,306 --> 00:44:45,706
Speaker 2: studio and started working on what is this song. So

935
00:44:46,386 --> 00:44:48,086
Speaker 2: it's been a labor of love for quite a long time.

936
00:44:48,766 --> 00:44:50,786
Speaker 2: He's really brilliant. And I have a lot of love

937
00:44:50,806 --> 00:44:53,266
Speaker 2: for him. And I put him through the ringer on

938
00:44:53,306 --> 00:44:53,666
Speaker 2: this song.

939
00:44:53,686 --> 00:44:54,376
Speaker 1: Tell me about it.

940
00:44:54,706 --> 00:44:56,596
Speaker 2: Oh my God. I call him again and be like,

941
00:44:57,136 --> 00:44:59,956
Speaker 2: we need to fix the drums. I'm like, we need to,

942
00:45:00,336 --> 00:45:02,436
Speaker 2: you know, we had this original drum loop and I'm like,

943
00:45:02,496 --> 00:45:05,876
Speaker 2: it's giving, but, It wasn't live. It had a live texture,

944
00:45:05,896 --> 00:45:08,166
Speaker 2: but some of the frequencies were too sharp and it

945
00:45:08,206 --> 00:45:10,646
Speaker 2: was jarring. And I was like, we need to, it

946
00:45:10,666 --> 00:45:13,966
Speaker 2: needs to have the same feel, but it needs to

947
00:45:14,006 --> 00:45:16,186
Speaker 2: feel clean and a bit more raw and down to

948
00:45:16,306 --> 00:45:19,846
Speaker 2: earth and not have that kind of distracting. And he'd

949
00:45:19,866 --> 00:45:22,386
Speaker 2: be like, okay, okay. So we try out different things

950
00:45:22,806 --> 00:45:24,166
Speaker 2: and then we go back and forth, back and forth,

951
00:45:24,186 --> 00:45:25,626
Speaker 2: back and forth. And then it was like, finally, yes,

952
00:45:25,686 --> 00:45:27,506
Speaker 2: we got it. So we took the original drum and

953
00:45:27,546 --> 00:45:29,466
Speaker 2: made it like 20% in volume and then played this

954
00:45:30,026 --> 00:45:31,586
Speaker 2: new one over the top. So you still get that.

955
00:45:32,316 --> 00:45:32,696
Speaker 1: Whatever.

956
00:45:32,836 --> 00:45:34,676
Speaker 2: And then I remember I was at the baseline. I

957
00:45:34,696 --> 00:45:37,256
Speaker 2: think we need a completely different melody to it. So

958
00:45:37,276 --> 00:45:41,226
Speaker 2: then we did this baseline where I basically recorded 20.

959
00:45:41,226 --> 00:45:47,496
Speaker 2: And we stacked and stacked and stacked, vocally manipulated it,

960
00:45:47,746 --> 00:45:49,546
Speaker 2: put it down an octave and then played a synth

961
00:45:50,046 --> 00:45:55,716
Speaker 2: with it. Like there was so much experimentation and things

962
00:45:55,736 --> 00:45:58,336
Speaker 2: that needed to be changed, things that needed to be added.

963
00:45:58,916 --> 00:46:02,056
Speaker 2: And he was so patient with me because I'm so annoying.

964
00:46:03,876 --> 00:46:07,836
Speaker 2: Every little detail, like, Bonnie, we need her. I'll call

965
00:46:07,856 --> 00:46:11,266
Speaker 2: him and be like, hi, Ray. Hey, so I was

966
00:46:11,306 --> 00:46:14,886
Speaker 2: just thinking that we need a new verse too, you know,

967
00:46:14,906 --> 00:46:18,086
Speaker 2: and maybe we do a string section. I even have

968
00:46:18,146 --> 00:46:21,346
Speaker 2: notes now and we've handed in the master. And I'm

969
00:46:21,386 --> 00:46:24,306
Speaker 2: thinking maybe the vinyl is going to be different. to

970
00:46:24,326 --> 00:46:26,286
Speaker 2: the version that's gonna come out, because I think we

971
00:46:26,326 --> 00:46:28,296
Speaker 2: need a more softer texture on verse one, because the

972
00:46:28,336 --> 00:46:32,886
Speaker 2: lyric's already so hard that you need some softness around it.

973
00:46:32,896 --> 00:46:36,036
Speaker 2: And then we played these brass on SNL that was

974
00:46:36,136 --> 00:46:39,086
Speaker 2: so good that I'm like, we need to add that in.

975
00:46:39,866 --> 00:46:42,566
Speaker 2: So there's probably gonna be some changes in the vinyl

976
00:46:42,606 --> 00:46:45,006
Speaker 2: seven inch version that we printed to what you're hearing

977
00:46:45,046 --> 00:46:48,936
Speaker 2: now Rodney's such a G. He's a legend. He's one

978
00:46:48,956 --> 00:46:51,856
Speaker 2: of the best in the game. He's just constantly leveling up,

979
00:46:51,976 --> 00:46:54,716
Speaker 2: creating music that just stands the test of time, whatever.

980
00:46:54,756 --> 00:46:57,556
Speaker 1: Some of the best singers, Janet, Tony Braxton. I mean,

981
00:46:57,606 --> 00:47:01,346
Speaker 1: come on. I mean, just everywhere. The greatest singers he's

982
00:47:01,366 --> 00:47:05,186
Speaker 1: worked with. As an album artist, do you have a

983
00:47:05,206 --> 00:47:06,226
Speaker 1: sense of what you want to do next?

984
00:47:07,426 --> 00:47:08,336
Speaker 2: I'd like to make an album.

985
00:47:08,976 --> 00:47:13,176
Speaker 1: Okay, okay. Feeling it out? Do you have a goal

986
00:47:13,216 --> 00:47:15,256
Speaker 1: that I want it to be by boom?

987
00:47:15,336 --> 00:47:19,136
Speaker 2: It just has to be good by my own standard.

988
00:47:19,856 --> 00:47:22,636
Speaker 2: And I think I'll need to live a little bit

989
00:47:22,656 --> 00:47:25,476
Speaker 2: to make a really good album. Otherwise, I'm just going

990
00:47:25,496 --> 00:47:30,536
Speaker 2: to be writing about hotel rooms and winding roads and

991
00:47:30,816 --> 00:47:33,196
Speaker 2: nobody wants to hear that. So I need to go

992
00:47:33,236 --> 00:47:36,536
Speaker 2: and collect some stories as well and live a little bit.

993
00:47:36,926 --> 00:47:39,406
Speaker 2: I'm aware that it's a bit scary in the times

994
00:47:39,446 --> 00:47:42,426
Speaker 2: we're in with everyone having such short attention spans. And,

995
00:47:43,526 --> 00:47:45,636
Speaker 2: you know, we're at such an amazing place right now

996
00:47:45,716 --> 00:47:49,636
Speaker 2: that everyone's like, oh, well, when's the next shit coming?

997
00:47:49,676 --> 00:47:53,956
Speaker 2: I'm like, fucking hell, like, damn, like, I need to write.

998
00:47:54,496 --> 00:47:56,236
Speaker 2: I'm not going to put anything out that I don't

999
00:47:56,336 --> 00:47:58,946
Speaker 2: love and I don't believe it's good. And it's got

1000
00:47:58,966 --> 00:48:01,786
Speaker 2: to at least be a little bit better than, in

1001
00:48:01,806 --> 00:48:03,826
Speaker 2: my opinion, the album we just put out. Otherwise, what's

1002
00:48:03,846 --> 00:48:04,966
Speaker 2: the point? Do you know what I mean? Got to

1003
00:48:04,986 --> 00:48:05,656
Speaker 2: be levelling up.

1004
00:48:06,476 --> 00:48:08,336
Speaker 1: Hey, well, I can't wait to hear it. I hope. Yeah,

1005
00:48:08,596 --> 00:48:11,646
Speaker 1: me too. I can't wait to hear it. I'm sure

1006
00:48:11,666 --> 00:48:14,266
Speaker 1: it'll be great. Aw, thanks. It was great talking to you.

1007
00:48:14,286 --> 00:48:14,986
Speaker 2: No luck, guys.

1008
00:48:15,006 --> 00:48:20,446
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you. Thanks to Ray for speaking so openly

1009
00:48:20,486 --> 00:48:24,536
Speaker 1: about her life, inspiration, and her music. Her new single, Genesis,

1010
00:48:24,796 --> 00:48:27,716
Speaker 1: is out now everywhere. You can hear a playlist of

1011
00:48:27,736 --> 00:48:32,536
Speaker 1: all of our favorite Ray songs at brokenrecordpodcast.com. Subscribe to

1012
00:48:32,556 --> 00:48:36,496
Speaker 1: our YouTube channel at youtube.com slash brokenrecordpodcast where you can

1013
00:48:36,536 --> 00:48:39,766
Speaker 1: find all of our new episodes. You can follow us

1014
00:48:39,826 --> 00:48:43,326
Speaker 1: on Twitter at Broken Record. Broken Record is produced and

1015
00:48:43,506 --> 00:48:46,586
Speaker 1: edited by Leah Rose with marketing help from Eric Sandler

1016
00:48:46,646 --> 00:48:50,846
Speaker 1: and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Toleday. Broken Record

1017
00:48:50,926 --> 00:48:54,056
Speaker 1: is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this

1018
00:48:54,096 --> 00:48:57,976
Speaker 1: show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus.

1019
00:48:58,716 --> 00:49:01,976
Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content

1020
00:49:02,056 --> 00:49:06,076
Speaker 1: and ad-free listening for $ 4. 99 a month. Look for Pushkin

1021
00:49:06,116 --> 00:49:10,096
Speaker 1: Plus on Apple Podcast Subscriptions. And if you like this show,

1022
00:49:10,256 --> 00:49:12,696
Speaker 1: please remember to share, rate, and review us on your

1023
00:49:12,716 --> 00:49:16,416
Speaker 1: podcast app. Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richmond.