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Speaker 1: How many extraordinaries. We are always looking for a reason

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Speaker 1: to bring doctor Katrina Whitson, our favorite microbiologist, back on

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Speaker 1: the show, and we found one. So today we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about the good and bad of what bathing

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Speaker 1: does to our microbiome, and we'll chat about how bacteria

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Speaker 1: contribute to each of our unique sense Welcome to Daniel

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Speaker 1: and Kelly's hygienic universe.

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Speaker 2: Hi. I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist who likes to

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Speaker 2: think about aliens, and contrary to popular mythology, I really

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Speaker 2: do stay quite clean.

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Speaker 1: Hi. I'm a Kelly Wiener smith. I study parasites and space,

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Speaker 1: and I also enjoy a regular shower. And I appreciate

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Speaker 1: Daniel that you defy stereotypes about your community.

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Speaker 2: We are all individuals, So tell me, Kelly, have your

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Speaker 2: hygiene habits changed since you moved out under the farm.

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Speaker 2: Do you feel like I'm just farm fresh all the

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Speaker 2: time or do you feel like, Wow, I just touched

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Speaker 2: a goat. I need to go wash my hands.

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Speaker 1: I do wash my hands after petting the goats, and

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Speaker 1: when I know that I'm going to be mucking the stalls,

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Speaker 1: which pretty much means picking up large piles of hay

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Speaker 1: and feces. I move my shower from the morning to

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Speaker 1: the afternoon so that it can happen after all of

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Speaker 1: that pop dust has landed in my hair and so

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Speaker 1: a little. But you know, I think maybe in the end,

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Speaker 1: living amongst the animals could be helping my micromiome hard

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Speaker 1: to say.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, we're going to learn all about that on

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Speaker 2: the show today.

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Speaker 1: We are. And so let's not wait another second before

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Speaker 1: we bring Katrina on, because this is time wasted not

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Speaker 1: having her on the show. So let's get to it

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Speaker 1: all right.

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Speaker 2: Well, then it's again my distinct pleasure to introduce the

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Speaker 2: podcast listener's favorite professor Whitson and the one who's largely

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Speaker 2: responsible for teaching our children to bathe. Thank you, Katrina.

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Speaker 3: Wow, that's a big responsibility.

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Speaker 1: It's like a surprising responsibility. Like I was kind of

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Speaker 1: blown away by how hard it was to convince my

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Speaker 1: kids that they wanted to shower every day? Was it

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Speaker 1: the same for the whites and kids? Let's tell all the.

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Speaker 3: Secrets, Oh big time.

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Speaker 4: We were actually reminiscing about that with the kids recently.

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Speaker 4: And how in the summer, I mean, they were swimming

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Speaker 4: a lot like almost every day. But I feel like

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Speaker 4: there were definitely we had like a every Sunday, absolutely

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Speaker 4: you need to take a bath policy, but the kids

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Speaker 4: feel like they had.

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Speaker 2: A week once a week if you need it or not.

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Speaker 4: I mean with on top of swimming and everything. But

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Speaker 4: but yeah, I think there might have been. They seem

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Speaker 4: to think they figured out how to trick us or

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Speaker 4: like a babysitter into not doing a bath on a

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Speaker 4: Sunday once.

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Speaker 2: So now, which is like, what's so bad baths? I

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Speaker 2: don't understand why we have to persuade people to take one,

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Speaker 2: you know, the feeling of being clean, the splashing around,

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Speaker 2: it's all good.

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Speaker 1: Well, and just so my kids aren't furious at me,

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Speaker 1: I'll mention that they are both now very religious showerers.

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Speaker 1: You know, they take a daily, no complaints, and they

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Speaker 1: both luxuriate in there. And I'm glad that our water

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Speaker 1: isn't metered.

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Speaker 4: I mean our kids too. Our kids love showering too.

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Speaker 4: I mean our sons an athlete, he probably showers more

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Speaker 4: than once a day a lot of times.

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Speaker 2: Yes, we've definitely taught our kids to shower, and they

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Speaker 2: enjoy it. But the question we're asking today is whether

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Speaker 2: scientifically that actually was good parenting or not.

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Speaker 3: And it's kind of a recent thing to be showering

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Speaker 3: so much.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I always get nervous when you start talking

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Speaker 1: about the science of parenting because I'm like, do I

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Speaker 1: want to know if I've been doing it wrong? Like

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Speaker 1: is this something they're going to be talking about in

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Speaker 1: therapy later on? But you know, sorry, we're gonna get

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Speaker 1: into it's gonna be fine.

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Speaker 2: But you've been an excellent step parent to your baby goats, Kelly,

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Speaker 2: that's what I hear.

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Speaker 1: I have, Yes, Lottie whose mama goat has decided she's

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Speaker 1: not super into feeding her kids, and so that has

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Speaker 1: fallen upon me and my sister in law, and so

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Speaker 1: we are sharing the work of being a step goat moms.

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Speaker 2: Put that on your CV for sure.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'm sure that's gonna get me a job

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Speaker 1: down the road.

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't know if goats need to shower, but

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Speaker 2: I'm very curious about the science of bathing because we

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Speaker 2: had an episode recently where we talked about super advanced

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Speaker 2: showering fancy techniques like sonic showers and mist sprays, and

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Speaker 2: Kelly asked me if that had an impact on the

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Speaker 2: skin microbiome, and I didn't know. And so here we

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Speaker 2: are today calling in the ringer, the real professor.

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Speaker 1: Whitson, the favorite professor White.

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Speaker 2: No, no, no, we did have lots of listeners right

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Speaker 2: in saying that the biofilm's episode was their favorite episode.

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Speaker 2: And that's cool. We all like Katrina. I'm not offended.

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Speaker 1: You need two white sons and a Wienersmith to really

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Speaker 1: rise to the top. All right, So let's go to

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Speaker 1: the extraordinaries. We asked the extraordinaries, is there any scientific

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Speaker 1: reason not to shower? And we learned a lot about

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Speaker 1: our audience for this question. Let's hear what they had

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Speaker 1: to say.

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Speaker 2: I wonder who asked this question.

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Speaker 5: I think indoor plumbing is roughly, I don't know, one

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Speaker 5: hundred and fifty, maybe two hundred years old. So I'm

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Speaker 5: going to say that we survived without showers for a

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Speaker 5: very long time. So no, there's no scientific reason not

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Speaker 5: to shower.

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Speaker 6: I don't know if there is any scientific reason to

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Speaker 6: not to shower. I think daily shower has more to

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Speaker 6: do with social and cultural.

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Speaker 3: Needs then with skin health.

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Speaker 6: I also don't think there is a scientific reason to shower.

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Speaker 6: I mean there is multiple ways to keep good body hygiene,

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Speaker 6: and showering feels good, but it doesn't. It's not a need,

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Speaker 6: and from the environmental point of view, who it might

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Speaker 6: be better for us to shower less than try other alternatives.

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Speaker 7: In general, even if the water are you using is clean,

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Speaker 7: it will still strip oils from your skin and dry

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Speaker 7: out your skin a bunch, not to mention the environmental

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Speaker 7: impacts of taking long showers and wasting water and stuff.

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Speaker 8: I believe there is.

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Speaker 9: A scientific reason not to show, as it allows your

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Speaker 9: body to establish its natural ecosystem and sort of all

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Speaker 9: of your levels of oil and that sort of thing

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Speaker 9: equalize on their own.

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Speaker 3: I think if you have the flu or pneumonia, but

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Speaker 3: that's a very scientific reason not to shower. Okay, thanks

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Speaker 3: by hmm.

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Speaker 7: I'm gonna pull a Daniel and say that this question

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Speaker 7: is a little too vague and undefined to answer. I'm

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Speaker 7: not sure what scientific reason really means.

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Speaker 3: When you have certain things like dry skin where a

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Speaker 3: shower may exacerbate the condition.

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Speaker 10: Is there any scientific reason to take a shower? Well,

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Speaker 10: that's what my younger self would say. I don't know

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Speaker 10: why kids hate taking showers. I would suppose that if

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Speaker 10: the water was dirty, or if you had open wounds

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Speaker 10: that showers might not be best.

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Speaker 3: By showering, we probably deprive a lot of wildlife of.

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Speaker 8: Their sustenage, might etc. I just shouldn't be clean, though.

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Speaker 9: I think that the answer to this question may be

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Speaker 9: related to the health of the skin.

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Speaker 8: Maybe an excessive amount of showering may cause some sort

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Speaker 8: of dermatitis. I conducted a scientific experiment into this, and

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Speaker 8: on one hundred percent of the days that I did

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Speaker 8: not shower, my wife told me to stop being weird

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Speaker 8: and gross.

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Speaker 3: Like, I don't know.

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Speaker 11: We survived without showering for like billenniums while we were evolving.

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Speaker 11: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I feel like that's just unclean.

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Speaker 11: Like there's way more scientific reasons it's to shower than

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Speaker 11: not to shower.

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Speaker 3: Possibly because it could dry out your skin a lot

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Speaker 3: or something like that. Overshowering causes skin flakiness, it wastes water,

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Speaker 3: and it takes waste on those pheromones that you're useful

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Speaker 3: in a date.

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Speaker 11: Of course, there's a scientific reason not to shower. If

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Speaker 11: you shower too much, the corks in your hair combine

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Speaker 11: with the trematodes living on your skin to give you

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Speaker 11: cork trematoditis.

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Speaker 1: Maybe if you shower too much, you're harming your microbiom.

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Speaker 3: But also if you don't shower, this guy's might get

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Speaker 3: out of control. You never know.

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Speaker 1: Well, Katrina, what do you think?

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Speaker 3: Well? I mean, I actually agree.

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Speaker 4: Several people talked about how how showering is a recent

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Speaker 4: thing and we haven't been showering through human evolutionary history,

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Speaker 4: and that raises all kinds of questions about how it

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Speaker 4: changes our health and our hygiene. And I think those

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Speaker 4: are really good questions. They're not questions you can get

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Speaker 4: a good answer to by reading the labels on shampoo

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Speaker 4: and soap packages.

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you that, oh, you're going up against big soap.

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Speaker 4: Well, I mean, I like soap as much as the

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Speaker 4: next guy. But I do think we are disrupting our

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Speaker 4: microbiomes by using soap and showering regularly.

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Speaker 3: And I mean, there's just so much to say. I

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Speaker 3: can't talk about this without.

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Speaker 4: Bringing up the story of a company called ao Biome,

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Speaker 4: which the AOB stands for ammonia oxidizing bacteria, And so

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Speaker 4: there's a whole movement of people and there's a product

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Speaker 4: from AOBiome which has a ammonia oxidizing bacteria in it.

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Speaker 4: That is moving us away from using soap to disrupt

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Speaker 4: our biome and instead inviting in certain microbial characters to

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Speaker 4: help us with our skin hygiene.

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Speaker 2: What wow, So you're saying there's a product that puts

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Speaker 2: bacteria onto your skin.

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 2: Wow?

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Speaker 1: All right, So, like when chinchillas are rolling around in

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Speaker 1: those dust baths, like ten years from now, we're going

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Speaker 1: to be rolling around in ammonia bacteria baths.

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Speaker 2: Is that what it's going to look like. I wish

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Speaker 2: everybody could see Kelly's little dance there, little shower dance.

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Speaker 4: You do not even know how close in thinking you

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Speaker 4: are to the founders of this ao Biome company, because

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Speaker 4: the story goes it all started when one of them

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Speaker 4: was watching a horse bathe in dust on a hot

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Speaker 4: day and imagining that the sweat on the horse was

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Speaker 4: like meeting up with a bacteria in the dirt that

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Speaker 4: was somehow helping that situation be better, and that might

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Speaker 4: have been why that behavior evolved.

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Speaker 1: That's amazing, It is really amazing.

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Speaker 2: Right, But before we get into the details of this product,

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Speaker 2: maybe we should back up and mind people of what

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Speaker 2: is on our skin. Because I have the impression that

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Speaker 2: I take a shower, I wash myself clean, and then

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Speaker 2: it's just me and my skin cells. But tell me, Katrina,

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Speaker 2: what's going on on my skin? What microbes are living there?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 3: What a good question.

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Speaker 4: Okay, So I mean to be honest, The microbes are

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Speaker 4: not just on the surface, so rinsing off with water

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Speaker 4: is not going to do too much. The microbes are

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Speaker 4: actually living in the top millimeter or so of our skin.

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Speaker 4: They're like densely packed into the follicles and different structures

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Speaker 4: underneath there. So rinsing off your skin certainly will not

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Speaker 4: remove all the microbes.

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Speaker 3: We have really.

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Speaker 4: Fascinating biogeography of the microbes that live on the human body,

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Speaker 4: and so you could imagine the environment in the crook

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Speaker 4: of your elbow, where it's moist, is going to be

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Speaker 4: super different from on your forearm, where it's more dry.

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Speaker 4: And so overall, there's a certain collection of microbes that

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Speaker 4: are really common on our skin. They include stuff caucus

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Speaker 4: and another bunch of bugs called Carina bacterium. And the

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Speaker 4: names don't matter, but there are some bugs that do better.

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Speaker 2: Games don't matter. It's agree here it is. See Kelly,

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Speaker 2: I brought katun on to gang up against you.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, no. I was proud of her for saying

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Speaker 1: some of the names, and I thought, I wonder how

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Speaker 1: Daniel's going to retaliate later in the episode. But all right,

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Speaker 1: we're just gonna we'll call them bugs and move on.

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Speaker 2: But wait, Katrina, I have to understand this. You're saying that, like,

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Speaker 2: the environment of my elbow is different enough from the

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Speaker 2: environment of my wrist that we got different microbes living there,

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Speaker 2: and they're like different little ecosystems.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean they're different in the same way that

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Speaker 4: a rainforest is different from a desert, is different from

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Speaker 4: a coral reef. The nutrients and environment are completely different,

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Speaker 4: and they allow for the thriving or survival of different

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Speaker 4: types of microbes. So in the moisture parts of your skin,

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Speaker 4: you have moisture loving microbes, and if it's more dry,

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Speaker 4: you have microbes that have tools for surviving that.

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Speaker 2: But my elbow, I mean, I don't want to get

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Speaker 2: too personal here. My elbow is not like a rainforest,

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Speaker 2: you know, compared to the desert of my wrist. Like,

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Speaker 2: they can't be that different. They're like, you know, ten

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Speaker 2: inches apart, right, how can they be so different, And

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Speaker 2: how can the bacteria be so specific and so sensitive

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Speaker 2: to the conditions that you have like different microbes living there.

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Speaker 3: I mean, the conditions are pretty different.

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Speaker 4: I mean, maybe I should have used armpit as an

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Speaker 4: example for a moist location.

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Speaker 2: It is more rainforest. Yeah, that's true. One could even

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Speaker 2: say I might like be able to ferment my own

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Speaker 2: human kombucha there.

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Speaker 3: Oh boy, oh.

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Speaker 1: Boy, that's a physicist thing. I'm guessing definitely not, definitely not.

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Speaker 4: I mean, actually, here's here's a piece of information that

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Speaker 4: might stick in your mind. So your feet, which are

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Speaker 4: definitely more moist, at least in the modern world, most

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Speaker 4: people are wearing socks, and our feet have really diverse

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Speaker 4: communities of fungi living on them, whereas the rest of

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Speaker 4: our bodies don't have as much fungi on our skin.

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Speaker 4: And then the bacteria, it's the opposite, So the bacteria

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Speaker 4: have more diversity in the places that are less moil.

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Speaker 4: So our feet are really quite different from the rest

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Speaker 4: of our bodies in terms of the skin microbiome, and

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Speaker 4: they have a lot more fundime.

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Speaker 1: So there's a lot of different habitats where you find

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Speaker 1: different kinds of microbes. I guess what I'm wondering, is like, so,

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Speaker 1: if we're using soap to clean the surface, like, does

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Speaker 1: our skin segregate into habitats where like you would have

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Speaker 1: different bacteria species on the surface of your skin relative

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Speaker 1: to like a millimeter down where you said so, like

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Speaker 1: maybe there's still some bacteria in the hair follicles, but

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Speaker 1: are you getting rid of a whole different set of

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Speaker 1: bacteria by just cleaning the surface of your skin? Does

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Speaker 1: that make sense?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it totally makes sense.

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Speaker 4: I mean in my mind, the skin bacteria have roots,

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Speaker 4: and when you wash them off, many of them will

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Speaker 4: come back.

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Speaker 2: Okay, when you say roots, you don't mean like an

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Speaker 2: individual bacteria has like you know, literal roots to hold

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Speaker 2: itself on. You mean like there are is a depth

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Speaker 2: to the community exactly.

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Speaker 3: That is what I mean.

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Speaker 4: I mean that there are microbes that are living underneath

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Speaker 4: the top top surface of the skin and when you

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Speaker 4: wash those are not removed. And I mean I have

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Speaker 4: a really great example about doctor Armpit and the transplants

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Speaker 4: he did to help people with body odor. If you

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Speaker 4: would like to hear that because it really illustrates it.

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Speaker 1: Of course. Yeah, Okay, we're jumping to the body odor

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Speaker 1: part A discussion. Let's do this.

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Speaker 4: I mean, so this is all in the context of

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Speaker 4: a society where people are showering. So it could be

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Speaker 4: that in the past we had communities of microbes that

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Speaker 4: were more connected to the environment that we lived in,

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Speaker 4: and if you were to shower, you would completely remove

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Speaker 4: that forever.

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Speaker 3: I don't think that's the case in modern people.

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Speaker 4: And my wonderful example from a Belgian scientist who goes

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Speaker 4: by the moniker doctor Armpit.

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Speaker 3: You can google him.

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Speaker 4: He's a wonderful scientist and he wanted to help people

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Speaker 4: who were struggling with body odor. And he found twins

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Speaker 4: where one twin had more body odor than the other,

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Speaker 4: and he did armpit transplants, which involved really roughing up

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Speaker 4: the skin in the armpit so that you could get

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Speaker 4: to the microbes underneath and also disrupt the skin microbiome

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Speaker 4: more substantially. And then so he roughed up the skin

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Speaker 4: and then transplanted the microbes from the nice smelling twin

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Speaker 4: onto the twin who was struggling with body odor.

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Speaker 3: And my understanding is that it was quite effective. He

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Speaker 3: did write paper about.

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Speaker 2: It, but that's not an armpit transplant. That's an armpit

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Speaker 2: microbe transplant. That's very different being very picky words.

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Speaker 3: Come on, I mean, that's the part of the armpit

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Speaker 3: we're all thinking about.

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Speaker 1: So can we dig a little deeper into why we

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Speaker 1: stink and like why we stink more post puberty and

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Speaker 1: what roll bacteria have in all of that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, great question.

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Speaker 4: And actually I didn't bring up oil when I talked

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Speaker 4: about the moisture of the skin. And we have more

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Speaker 4: oily parts of our skin and they attract a different

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Speaker 4: community of microbes.

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Speaker 3: So when you go through puberty and.

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Speaker 4: Your skin becomes more oily, you do have a different

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Speaker 4: community of microbes living on your skin. And in general,

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Speaker 4: where it smells come from are through the production of

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Speaker 4: volatile molecules that can waft away from their origin source

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Speaker 4: and make it to your nose. And microbes are really

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Speaker 4: good at fermenting things and breaking things down, and so

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Speaker 4: we have microbes that are converting the molecules they come

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Speaker 4: across on our skin into volatiles that we can smell, much.

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Speaker 2: Like the process of kombucha improving. You're saying, oh.

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Speaker 1: My goodness, let it go, man, you lost that one.

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Speaker 1: Let it go.

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Speaker 3: And beer and bread.

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Speaker 4: Okay, mister sourdough might like to know all those delicious.

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Speaker 3: Aromas from the sour dough. Yes, it's the same.

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Speaker 4: Some of those are the same molecules, just in different combinations.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: Well, I would like to work out and smell like sourdough.

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Speaker 2: That would be amazing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think that would be an improvement

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Speaker 1: for most of us if we could smell like sourdough.

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Speaker 2: But are you saying that we smell because microbes are

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Speaker 2: fermenting on our skin? Is that what's really happening.

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Speaker 4: It doesn't have to be fermentation, just to be clear,

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Speaker 4: but yes, microbes are producing volatile molecules that make it

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Speaker 4: to our nose and we smell them.

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Speaker 8: Yes.

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Speaker 1: So I feel like lately when I look through the

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Speaker 1: deodorant aisle, there are a lot more methods that are

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Speaker 1: being used right now to address stink than I've seen

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Speaker 1: in the past. And so I tried some like loomy

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Speaker 1: or whatever, where it's supposed to change your pH and

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Speaker 1: that's supposed to make it so that you don't stink.

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Speaker 1: Do you have any thoughts on these new methods and

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Speaker 1: which ones work and like the science behind them.

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Speaker 4: I've also been noticing this, and I agree that it's

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Speaker 4: interesting to see there's some new strategies coming out. I

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Speaker 4: don't know enough about the science to make an evidence

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Speaker 4: based comment, and I'm not sure there is a lot

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Speaker 4: of evidence, because that's not the burden that's placed on

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Speaker 4: companies before they can write something on their package, they

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Speaker 4: just have to be generally regarded as safe.

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Speaker 2: Oh so it's unregulated like the supplement industry.

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Speaker 4: You mean, yes, exactly, it's in the same way. That

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Speaker 4: doesn't mean some companies haven't done real research. I think,

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Speaker 4: in fact, I think that the company's producing these molecules

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Speaker 4: or these products, maybe some of them are your listeners,

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Speaker 4: they actually probably have a lot of really strong evidence,

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Speaker 4: and maybe that is what's reflected on the package. But

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Speaker 4: it's hard to know that by just looking at the package.

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Speaker 1: If you work for Loomy get in, Well, do we

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Speaker 1: want to do a whole deodorant episode the he know

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Speaker 1: about the science of reducing stink?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Why don't icemell like sour dough? Yes, let's dig

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Speaker 2: into science of that.

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Speaker 3: There's a life goal for you.

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Speaker 1: I'm wondering how much I want to ask you personal

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Speaker 1: questions about like what deodorant do you use and how often?

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Speaker 1: And maybe we should make this more general instead of

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Speaker 1: so specific. But like Daniel's like, no, ask her whatever,

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Speaker 1: it's not me.

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Speaker 4: Well, no, I mean, I'm happy to share all kinds

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Speaker 4: of stuff because I'm interested in this, and I've tried

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Speaker 4: different things, you know, But I personally, I mean, I

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Speaker 4: just shower and use normal shampoo and conditioner and body wash,

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Speaker 4: and I put deodorant on.

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Speaker 3: I don't have like a brand.

401
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Speaker 4: I'm super loyal too, but I use normal deodorant that

402
00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:24,959
Speaker 4: has probably terrible things in it. And I have tried

403
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Speaker 4: some of these other new products, but I didn't feel

404
00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,040
Speaker 4: like they worked very well. But maybe I wasn't consistent enough,

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Speaker 4: or you know, there's maybe you have to transition more slowly.

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Speaker 3: I've been curious.

407
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Speaker 4: About that myself, and I love the story about this

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Speaker 4: company that I brought up earlier, which has a product

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Speaker 4: where you apply ammonia oxidizing bacteria to your skin and

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Speaker 4: the people who've been there's a group of people who

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Speaker 4: haven't showered for more than ten years and the people

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Speaker 4: around them say that they don't smell. So I just

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00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:56,399
Speaker 4: find that amazing. But I think that you have to

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Speaker 4: somehow do a much more gradual transition, and I remember

415
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Speaker 4: I re read it last night. But I remember reading

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Speaker 4: a New York Times article about a reporter at the

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Speaker 4: New York Times who tried this product from AOBiome and

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Speaker 4: she didn't shower for like, I don't know, a month

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Speaker 4: or something, and her colleagues were all calling her teen spirit.

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Speaker 1: Does that suggest it didn't work?

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Speaker 3: That was the sense I was getting. And then she

422
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Speaker 3: was saying like at some point she basically wasn't able

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Speaker 3: to engage in her normal life because her hair looked

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Speaker 3: crazy and she smelled.

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Speaker 1: How is it supposed to be working? So like, what

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Speaker 1: is the connection with what the bacteria are doing and

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Speaker 1: the production of.

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Speaker 2: Stink and out of character for me? Can you explain

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Speaker 2: the chemistry here? Amelia oxidizing? What's going on there?

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Speaker 4: So these are bacteria that oxidize ammonia. It's actually the

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Speaker 4: same type of process that happens in a wastewater treatment plant.

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Speaker 4: We have a lot of ammonia in our sweat. And

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Speaker 4: I think there's other consequence is relating to pH that

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00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,159
Speaker 4: maybe it also keeps the pH a bit lower and

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00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 4: that probably also helps to prevent the colonization of other

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Speaker 4: bugs that I think that many of the bugs that

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Speaker 4: cause odor might not tolerate low pH as well. So anyhow,

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Speaker 4: the ammonia oxidizing bacteria that were initially observed when the

439
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,119
Speaker 4: guy who founded the company watched a horse bathing in

440
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Speaker 4: the dust, you know, he found them there, and so

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Speaker 4: he hypothesized that horses were dealing with a hot, sweaty

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Speaker 4: summer day by having the help of these ammonia oxidizing

443
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,359
Speaker 4: bacteria to reduce the ammonia load on their skin, and

444
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:45,200
Speaker 4: then that the metabolic products from that had other positive

445
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,800
Speaker 4: consequences to regulate the skin microbiome.

446
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:50,200
Speaker 2: And he doesn't smell like a horse, of course.

447
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,080
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, my knowledge is essentially limited to this

448
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:57,120
Speaker 3: New York Times article, but it was a pretty good one.

449
00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:58,120
Speaker 3: I'm happy to share it.

450
00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:03,359
Speaker 4: But it ends with a comment where the reporter asks

451
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 4: his girlfriend how he smells, and she says, he smells

452
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:10,199
Speaker 4: like a human, but that so not a horse. But

453
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:12,800
Speaker 4: I mean, that didn't really necessarily make it sound like

454
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 4: it was working, that's right, But apparently, Yeah, the people

455
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,320
Speaker 4: who have been using this product are living lives and

456
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 4: you can't you can't tell. I mean, it makes me

457
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 4: have a lot of questions, like what about after you

458
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:31,400
Speaker 4: exercise and Apparently they still shower with water, and that's

459
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:33,720
Speaker 4: kind of a ritual that people have as a part

460
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,760
Speaker 4: of their day that must be hard to lose, right,

461
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:40,480
Speaker 4: and so even if it's not necessary, I think they

462
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:41,720
Speaker 4: were just using only water.

463
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,359
Speaker 3: The reporter who.

464
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,639
Speaker 4: Tried to use the product, she went back to just

465
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 4: a simple shampoo and soap after that.

466
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 2: All right, So we've laid the groundwork to understand what

467
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 2: critters are growing on our skin and how they contribute

468
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:59,120
Speaker 2: to our individual particular human smells. Let's take a break.

469
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,919
Speaker 2: When we come back, we'll talk to Katrina about the

470
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 2: effects of showering and how it influences your health. Okay,

471
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 2: we're back, and we're talking two white sense and one

472
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 2: wiener smith about the science of bathing. Three smelly scientists

473
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 2: giving you advice on hygiene. Speak for yourself, man, right right,

474
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 2: I meant smelly in a positive way, like smelling like

475
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 2: you know recently fermented kombucha to insult us. Still, all right, well,

476
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,160
Speaker 2: let's keep this healthy. I want to know about how

477
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 2: my skin microbiome influences the rest of my health. Like

478
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,280
Speaker 2: we've been talking about the critters that live on our

479
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 2: bodies and how they vary from place to place and

480
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 2: how that's all different. But we haven't really answered the

481
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,359
Speaker 2: question of what cruiters do we want on our body?

482
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,919
Speaker 2: Are we washing away good guys for bad guys or

483
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:15,120
Speaker 2: is that just a totally arbitrary human distinction. So, Katrina,

484
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 2: how does our skin microbiome influence us in our health?

485
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 4: What a great question, And to be honest, you kind

486
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 4: of have to back up a little bit because our

487
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 4: skin health is very affected by our immune.

488
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 3: Health and our general health.

489
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 4: So your skin is the largest organ in your body

490
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,879
Speaker 4: and it really does reflect your health. But for example,

491
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:39,199
Speaker 4: ezema and allergy have become much more common in the

492
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 4: last century, and we really think that starts in the gut.

493
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:47,119
Speaker 4: So wait, what, Yeah, so the prevalence of ezema, So

494
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 4: in California, for example, by the age of two, something

495
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 4: like half of California children are experiencing ezema, a topic

496
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 4: dermatitis to some extent.

497
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 2: Are you saying that's only for California children like Virginians

498
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 2: are spared from this?

499
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:05,920
Speaker 4: Well no, I mean actually, industrialized children have very high

500
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:10,159
Speaker 4: rates of exzema atopic dermatitis. And maybe you've heard me

501
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:12,920
Speaker 4: tell the story a million times where they compared Huttererite

502
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 4: children and Amish children.

503
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 3: Where the Amish children had.

504
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:20,680
Speaker 4: More exposure to microbes and dirt, their farming was being

505
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 4: conducted very close to their households. They found like more

506
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 4: particles of bacterial endotoxin, which is like a cell surface

507
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,160
Speaker 4: part of a bacteria that makes big immune responses happen.

508
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 4: They found more of that in the household dust and

509
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,679
Speaker 4: in the children's lives in general, and they found that

510
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,199
Speaker 4: the rates of exzema were much much smaller, same for

511
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 4: the rates of allergy, whereas in the Hutterite families, where

512
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 4: that farming was conducted a little farther away from the houses,

513
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 4: they had higher rates of eczema, although probably half of

514
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 4: what industrialized people have on average.

515
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 2: So you're saying that the more you were exposed to

516
00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 2: like dirt and dust and farming byproducts, your immune response

517
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,479
Speaker 2: or the lack of inflammation, lack of overresponse.

518
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:05,880
Speaker 3: The lack of over response exactly.

519
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it is exema just itchy skin.

520
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's itchy skin. It's like red rough patches.

521
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 4: It can have a lot of staphylococcus in it, but

522
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 4: it really does seem to have an immune origin that

523
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 4: isn't only on.

524
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 3: The surface of the skins.

525
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 4: But if all those exposures I just talked about are

526
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,119
Speaker 4: going to be influencing all parts of your body, for sure,

527
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:27,680
Speaker 4: But a lot of.

528
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 3: The solutions we've been reaching.

529
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 4: For have been related to cultivating a healthy baby gut

530
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,880
Speaker 4: microbiome in order to avoid the development of those over

531
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 4: immune responses.

532
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 2: So make the connection for us Kachun, which I think

533
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 2: is implied in your comment. You're saying that exposure to

534
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 2: these allergens avoids an allergic response later on in life.

535
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 2: Is this something about the immune system not having seen

536
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 2: it and then it reacts too strongly to it later.

537
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean this is very much a hypothesis.

538
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:58,679
Speaker 4: There's a lot of science to do to really connect

539
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 4: the dots on what you just add, But yes, that's

540
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 4: exactly the idea. So the hygiene hypothesis, which initially were

541
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 4: this episode was about the hygiene hypothesis, and I didn't

542
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 4: realize we're going to talk about showering specifically so much

543
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,439
Speaker 4: because to me, the hygiene hypothesis is all about the

544
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:17,199
Speaker 4: changes in the twentieth century where our hygiene change. So

545
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 4: we've had wastewater treatment, which obviously is wonderful. I love tapwater,

546
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 4: we've got vaccination, antibiotics, smaller family sizes, just personal hygiene

547
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:32,119
Speaker 4: I do think makes a difference.

548
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:34,160
Speaker 3: I mean, imagine how.

549
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:35,679
Speaker 4: Different it would be if you grew up in a

550
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 4: place where there were like tons of kids and babies

551
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 4: around and.

552
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 3: No clean water.

553
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 4: I mean, there's a lot of downsides in terms of

554
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 4: diarrheal illness.

555
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 3: In a situation like that.

556
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 4: But the people who are growing up in communities like that,

557
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 4: they actually don't get eczema, they don't get acne. They

558
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 4: have actually really amazing skin health. And so that combination

559
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 4: of different exposures is associated with better skin health outcomes.

560
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 4: But all the details are like a huge science question

561
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 4: that people are really working on right now.

562
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 2: But it suggests that like healthy living is dirty living

563
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 2: in some sense, that you want to be exposed to

564
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,719
Speaker 2: all these crazy things so that your immune system learns

565
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 2: to respond appropriately. Is that the idea?

566
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean dirty living is maybe not how I

567
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 4: would put it. I mean, what about forest bathing.

568
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 1: We do farm bathing, farm bathing.

569
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 3: There you go, Yeah, that's a great idea.

570
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 4: Like there's a wonderful institute in Finland which has done

571
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 4: a bunch of different interventions where they've studied the impact

572
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 4: of better connection to nature and microbiome and immune health outcomes. So,

573
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 4: for example, they took a paved over kindergarten and they

574
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:51,959
Speaker 4: ripped up the pavement and put a bunch of garden

575
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 4: boxes in and got the kids getting their hands in

576
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 4: the dirt more, and that group of kids had better

577
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 4: outcomes when it came to allergies and asthma and other

578
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 4: exzema and so forth.

579
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 1: Why in particular do we think that is? So It's like,

580
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 1: if by playing with dirt when you are in kindergarten

581
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 1: can solve the problems, then that means it wasn't something

582
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 1: that was like kicked off when you were a baby

583
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 1: and is now in place for the rest of your life.

584
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: It means it's something that you can change, at least

585
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 1: when you're in kindergarten. Yeah, so it's something about what

586
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 1: those bacteria are doing in the moment. What do we

587
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 1: think that they're doing? Do we know?

588
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 4: I mean, this is a huge question, but I think

589
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 4: it has to do with tolerization. So if you are

590
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 4: exposed to something consistently, your immune system becomes tolerant of it.

591
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 4: And so I think that's a big part of it.

592
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 4: I do think it'd be better to have it happen

593
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 4: in infancy. I really could imagine a future where we

594
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 4: are more carefully constructing our baby gut microbiomes and not

595
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 4: just letting that happen willy nilly, so akin to vaccination,

596
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 4: that we have a plan for making sure that babies

597
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 4: get good exposures in their guts early on, because I

598
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 4: think I think if you you know, for example, pre

599
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 4: term babies who have a lot of antibiotic exposure are

600
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 4: much more prone to some of these exema and allergy

601
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 4: and asthma type of outcomes. So I think there's a

602
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 4: big moment in early life where we could have a

603
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 4: lot of influence. But it is fascinating, and this is

604
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 4: true for a lot of different allergies and food tolerances

605
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 4: that you can build up better tolerance as an adult.

606
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 3: So I mean, many people get.

607
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 4: Allergy shots where you use exposure to protect yourself from

608
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 4: future allergies, or you know, maybe you've heard of people

609
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 4: going and getting like the tiniest one ten thousandth of

610
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 4: a peanut amount of exposure weekly and building it up

611
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 4: over time until they can eat a peanut without having

612
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 4: an anaphylactic shock, which is like life changing. So those

613
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 4: are amazing changes that we are feeling around with how

614
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 4: to make use of those changes that can still happen

615
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 4: in adulthood.

616
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 2: Exposure therapy, I mean, I get that it works, but

617
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 2: it always reminds me of like somebody's afraid of spiders,

618
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 2: Let's put them in a with a bunch of spiders,

619
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 2: you know, as a way to like solve their problem,

620
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 2: or like throw them out of an airplane if they

621
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 2: have a fear of heights or something. But you're saying

622
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 2: this like it actually works.

623
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 4: There is so much variation, and I am really not

624
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 4: an expert in that, so I don't want to pretend

625
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 4: I understand it, But I mean, I'm a part of

626
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 4: our society.

627
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 3: I've watched people in my life going.

628
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 4: Through these processes where they use exposure and are able

629
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 4: to tolerate things better.

630
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 3: And I really love this.

631
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 4: Doctor who wrote a book called Fiber Fueled, and he

632
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 4: always says, your gut.

633
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 12: Doesn't sound like a book you'd like, I did, Sorry,

634
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 12: go ahead, And he always says that your gut is

635
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 12: a muscle and you just have to build up to things.

636
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 4: And you wouldn't go to the gym and try to

637
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 4: deadlift your body weight the next day.

638
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 3: You would build up to it over a year.

639
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 4: And most people can eat most things if given small

640
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 4: exposures and growing them slowly. And there's exceptions like Celiac

641
00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 4: disease and gluten obviously and some severe allergy. But I

642
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 4: like that thinking that if you build up to it,

643
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 4: you can get your body to handle a lot of

644
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 4: different exposures.

645
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 1: And just because I'm paranoid, I'd like to mention that

646
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 1: if you're interested in this building up tolerance thing, you

647
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 1: should talk to a doctor. Yes, do it under their supervision,

648
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 1: because we don't need any extraordinary saying my kid had

649
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 1: anaphylactic shock.

650
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 3: Yes exactly, that's for sure.

651
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 2: But make the connection for us between all this interesting

652
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 2: stuff about the gut and the skin. Because initially we

653
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 2: were talking about skin microbiome and like how to write

654
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 2: or Amish children exposure via the skin to stuff on

655
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 2: the farm versus like, you know, urban kids who aren't

656
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 2: exposed to that. But now we're talking about gut health

657
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 2: and you said earlier that the two are connected. What

658
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 2: is the connection. Aren't these microbial communities very different?

659
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 4: The microbial communities are different, they're more on the surface,

660
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 4: but underlying everything is your immune system. Your skin reflects

661
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 4: your immune health because your skin is your biggest organ

662
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 4: and you see it all the time. So if your gut,

663
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 4: I mean seventy percent of your immune system is in

664
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 4: your gut, so you are if you are promoting your

665
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,839
Speaker 4: gut health through your diet and your life, then all

666
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 4: those immune cells will protect your skin. So they'll you know,

667
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 4: your immune system is like this army that it doesn't

668
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 4: have to be with such an aggressive term, but you

669
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 4: know they're a team that's out there cleaning stuff up

670
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:23,399
Speaker 4: for you.

671
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 2: They're like a marching band.

672
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 3: Yes, a nice quiet one though.

673
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 2: Okay, So just to make sure I understand the connection

674
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 2: between the gut and the skin is that they're both

675
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 2: affected by your immune system. But your immune system is

676
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,319
Speaker 2: centered in your gut even though your skin, as you

677
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 2: were saying, is the largest organ.

678
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:44,879
Speaker 3: That's right.

679
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 4: So your gut is lined with really large numbers of

680
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 4: immune cells also neuroendocrine cells. Your gut has this amazing

681
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 4: network of cells that are promoted by your diet and

682
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 4: your microbiome, and those those immune cells are going to

683
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 4: reflect your systemic health big time.

684
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 2: All right, So now to bring it back to the

685
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,240
Speaker 2: question in the episode, we're trying to understand whether showering

686
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 2: is good for you, and you're telling us that you

687
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 2: have microbial communities on your body, but that.

688
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 1: It seems to me if I can try to if

689
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,280
Speaker 1: I can jump in and say what maybe the point

690
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 1: is is you should be rolling around in farms until

691
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 1: you get the right kind of bacteria like in your

692
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 1: hair follicles, and you should be creating the right kind

693
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,279
Speaker 1: of microbiome, and then it's not so bad if you

694
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 1: shower once a day to rinse off the ones that

695
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 1: are like on the outside part. But you want to

696
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 1: establish a good microbiome initially, and then it's okay to shower.

697
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 3: That's a really cool thought. I don't know if that's true.

698
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,800
Speaker 4: I do think that when you shower you remove many

699
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 4: of the environmental microbes that might be helpful on your skin,

700
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:57,319
Speaker 4: like those ammonia oxidizing bacteria. They don't do well if

701
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:01,320
Speaker 4: you shower with soap. So we are changing our microbiomes

702
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 4: by showering in that sense. But we live in a

703
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 4: society where everybody's showering. I mean, I personally am not

704
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 4: going to stop. You were asking me for personal stories. Well,

705
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 4: Daniel will remember a few years ago.

706
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 2: I'm terrified about what this story.

707
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 8: Is going to be to use.

708
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 4: I wanted to use this soap that's like in a bar,

709
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 4: so it's not liquid, so it's more environmentally friendly because

710
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 4: it's easier to transport it. So I got shampoo and

711
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 4: conditioner in the form of a bar and I tried

712
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 4: to use them for like a month, and I was

713
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 4: like thinking it was going okay. And then one day,

714
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 4: I think I was like at a poster session with

715
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 4: my students or something, and they were taking pictures and

716
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 4: I saw the picture and I was like, oh my gosh,

717
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 4: I need some real shampoo. Like So my question is,

718
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 4: how would we transition to you know, the way these

719
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,280
Speaker 4: people who haven't been showering for ten years.

720
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 3: I mean, I find that fascinating.

721
00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,800
Speaker 4: So I think there must be a way to transition

722
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 4: towards that and to need less showering. I think if you,

723
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 4: I think right now, the products were using you soap

724
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 4: to strip the oils and then add the oils back.

725
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 4: Think of shampoo and conditioner or soap and lotion, and

726
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 4: I think if we cut both of those steps out

727
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,280
Speaker 4: of the process, we could probably get to a pretty

728
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 4: good balance, and I would imagine that you would have

729
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 4: a different skin microbiome if you were to do that. Now,

730
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,439
Speaker 4: if you go swabbing people in the industrialized world, you're

731
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:29,879
Speaker 4: not going to find a whole lot of people who

732
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 4: live that way, So it's pretty hard to know what

733
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 4: the microbiome would look like. We have done microbiome studies

734
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 4: in parts of the world that are relatively uncontacted, Like

735
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 4: I actually got to do a study in the Amazon

736
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 4: and Ecuador. We didn't collect skin samples, but the people

737
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 4: in that community did not have ezema or acne, so

738
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 4: that was kind of amazing. And doctor Armpit he also

739
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 4: went down and he studied. He went with a Yanamammy,

740
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 4: a guy named David Good who's a PEAHD student at GELF, Canada,

741
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 4: and he is Yana mommy, and they went down to

742
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 4: where he's from and they did collect skin samples, and

743
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 4: so they did see different types of microbes on the

744
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 4: skin of the people in this community. So I think

745
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 4: that's a hard question to answer in a modern context

746
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:18,239
Speaker 4: because all of us are showering, But.

747
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 2: In principle, you could like gather up the armpit microbes

748
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:25,279
Speaker 2: of people who don't shower and smell fine, and you

749
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 2: could bottle that up and like sell it and people

750
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:31,840
Speaker 2: could effectively all have armpit transplants instead of taking showers.

751
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 2: You's got a real business.

752
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 3: Opportunity in theory. I think it is.

753
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 4: And what's actually really interesting was I followed up on

754
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 4: ao Biome last night and I learned that they are

755
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 4: taking their product in a more medical direction for like

756
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 4: wound healing and other medical applications. They're doing clinical trials

757
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:54,319
Speaker 4: and so forth. So I mean, I think there's a

758
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 4: lot of potential here beyond just cosmetics or smells, but

759
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 4: actually for for health and wound healing.

760
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 2: All right, Well, that's exactly what I wanted to ask

761
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 2: you about, because it seems like you're saying that the

762
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 2: largest health conditions that affect your skin, like exima and

763
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 2: acne whatever, are actually driven by your immune system, which

764
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 2: is controlled by your gut. And that's not something we're

765
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 2: talking about cleaning today. So if we're talking about whether

766
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 2: you want to shower, that's going to impact the microbiome

767
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 2: on your skin, but that's a lesser player in these

768
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 2: questions of like acne or exima. They mostly seems like

769
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 2: affect how you smell. So it's not about health, It's

770
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:31,919
Speaker 2: about smell. Is that right?

771
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 3: I think there are some exceptions to that.

772
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 4: I think wound healing, for example, or your capacity to

773
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:42,239
Speaker 4: heal from skin injury. I think that is also your

774
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 4: gut and your immune health is important. But I think

775
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 4: the local conditions could actually be quite important. And so

776
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 4: I think that's actually a really fascinating future for intentional

777
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 4: probiotics to make sure that the microbial environment in a

778
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,720
Speaker 4: wound is promoting healing.

779
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 1: I eat more fiber, my leg will heal faster when

780
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 1: I trip on my farm.

781
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 3: Maybe I think, so I'm pushing it. Yeah, No, I

782
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 3: mean I think that's I think that's totally.

783
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:14,839
Speaker 4: On par with what we understand that if you have

784
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,840
Speaker 4: fiber in your gut and then that promotes the immune

785
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 4: health and all those immune cells in your gut, that

786
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,400
Speaker 4: leads to systemic improvements and healing.

787
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 1: Well, go grab a can of beans. Well we take

788
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:29,279
Speaker 1: a commercial break, and when we get back, we're going

789
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 1: to talk about more reasons to love fiber. Actually, that's

790
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 1: not what I'm planning on, but I'm guessing we're going

791
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:37,239
Speaker 1: to get to it.

792
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,720
Speaker 2: Okay, we're back and we're talking to doctor Katrino Whites

793
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 2: and the White and Research Institute CEO of our upcoming

794
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 2: startup which will sell you other people's armpits and beans.

795
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:12,359
Speaker 3: Wow. Not a very normal combination, I got to say.

796
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:15,840
Speaker 2: So, trying to take us to the forefront of research.

797
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 2: What are people doing right now to understand the microbes

798
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 2: on your skin and how that relates to showering and

799
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 2: of course fiber and guts. What is being funded right now?

800
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:27,280
Speaker 2: What are avenues of investigation currently?

801
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:27,839
Speaker 8: Oh?

802
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,879
Speaker 3: What a cool question. My mind is lighting up.

803
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 4: I mean, I can't not tell you about Julie Segre

804
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 4: at the nih who is a leading skin microbiome research

805
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 4: and believe it or not, she's collaborating with our colleague

806
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 4: and neighbors, Susan Hwang, who's an epidemiologist who studies staphylococcus

807
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 4: and nursing homes and infections and nursing homes. And I

808
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 4: just got to see Julie speak at a conference last

809
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 4: week where I learned all about their studies in nursing

810
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 4: homes where they swab the skin of nursing home residents

811
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:03,760
Speaker 4: and look for pathogens and look for transmission of infection

812
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 4: between people. She's done this in hospitals, and now they're

813
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 4: moving to nursing homes. There's a lot of antibiotics in

814
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:12,719
Speaker 4: nursing homes and they do see a lot of transmission.

815
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 4: So I mean, this is a big area where we

816
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 4: could improve health. And I think showering is actually a

817
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:21,840
Speaker 4: very big positive in the context of transmission of microbes

818
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:23,240
Speaker 4: in a healthcare setting.

819
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:25,719
Speaker 1: So score one for showering.

820
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a definite score one.

821
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:34,600
Speaker 1: Keeping I feel like we haven't said too many pro showering.

822
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 1: I guess we've implied it, but let's go ahead. Showering

823
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 1: got a point there.

824
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:40,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, And then actually that makes me think of another

825
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,240
Speaker 4: whole effort that I've watched happening in the last ten years,

826
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 4: which is to understand how the aerosolization of microbes in

827
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:53,720
Speaker 4: the shower can affect lung health and susceptibility to lung infection.

828
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 4: And there are some gram negative bugs in.

829
00:42:58,000 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 3: Our top water.

830
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 4: So if you aerosolize that and stand around breathing it

831
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 4: in for ten minutes every day and you're susceptible to

832
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 4: lung infections, that could sound kind of dangerous. And so

833
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 4: there were questions about whether, for example, children who have

834
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 4: cystic fibrosis would be safer in a bath, and they

835
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:17,280
Speaker 4: shouldn't take showers, which is an enormous endeavor to ask

836
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 4: all the parents of people with cystic vibrosis to take on,

837
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 4: like what if you don't have a bath. And actually

838
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 4: the final message on that was that those small environmental

839
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:31,360
Speaker 4: exposures actually did not change risk in a meaningful way,

840
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:34,240
Speaker 4: and that you should your kids should jump in the pool,

841
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 4: in the lake and enjoy the shower and living a

842
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 4: healthy lifestyle like that had way more impact on your

843
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 4: long term prognosis than any one exposure. So that was

844
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 4: I like really listened to the outcome of that public

845
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 4: health message, because otherwise I was really feeling for families

846
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,760
Speaker 4: that were going to try to avoid showering for that reason.

847
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 4: And so I think when it comes down to it,

848
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 4: they collected massive amounts of data, and I felt very

849
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:03,960
Speaker 4: convinced that it was safe to shower even if you

850
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:07,799
Speaker 4: had cystic fibrosis. So that's I guess another plus one.

851
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 2: But they didn't have a control group that showered like

852
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 2: a horse.

853
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 4: No, they did not do dust bathing in this study,

854
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:19,880
Speaker 4: That's right. And then yeah, then actually I had a

855
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,800
Speaker 4: really big life experience this week that I can share

856
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:27,319
Speaker 4: where I got to hear about several different cancer microbiome

857
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 4: research studies, many of them connected to diet and exercise.

858
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 2: So when you say cancer microbiome, you mean whether or

859
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 2: not the microbiome contributes to causing cancer or treatment of.

860
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 4: Cancer or yeah, exactly, So there's a lot of different

861
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,400
Speaker 4: angles there, but whether or not the microbiome and the

862
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 4: associated immune impacts influenced the risk of the development of

863
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 4: cancer and then also influence the treatment outcomes of cancer therapies.

864
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 4: For example, there were talks about melanoma and I learned

865
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 4: that eating a high fiber diet can actually really help

866
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 4: with slowing the progression of melanoma. So people who are

867
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:11,920
Speaker 4: eating a high fiber diet, they're less likely to develop melanoma.

868
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 4: And if they do develop a small beginning smoldering melanoma

869
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:18,479
Speaker 4: that will be curtailed by a high fiber diet, they're

870
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 4: less likely to have it progress.

871
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 1: Showers one fiber two yes, exactly, big score.

872
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 4: And believe it or not, this event that I was

873
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 4: invited to, it was kind of shrouded in secrecy. We

874
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 4: didn't have an agenda or know who was going to

875
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:33,279
Speaker 4: be there, and there was heavy security, and it's like

876
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:36,080
Speaker 4: I went in through like an airport, and then I

877
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 4: get in there and I see all these colleagues from

878
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:40,280
Speaker 4: all around the country. Some I know, some I don't,

879
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 4: but like it's clearly a big crowd, and we all

880
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:49,720
Speaker 4: sit down and guess who walks in OURFKA Junior. Oh okay,

881
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:52,839
Speaker 4: So we got to hear him talk about health for

882
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:56,480
Speaker 4: forty five minutes, and there were a lot of diet

883
00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 4: parts that I agreed with in terms of like eating

884
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 4: more whole foods and maybe the NIH is going to

885
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 4: invest more in cancer and diet and microbiome.

886
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:09,239
Speaker 2: And did you offer him your personal kombucha? And if no,

887
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:11,840
Speaker 2: is it because the Secret Service would have tackled you

888
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 2: halfway there recognizing the danger of kombucha.

889
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,320
Speaker 3: I mean, I do not think they'd find it dangerous.

890
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 3: I bet that. I bet RFK Junior is a kombucha drinker,

891
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:25,640
Speaker 3: let's face it. Not sure, not sure.

892
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:28,239
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's a team member I'm necessarily

893
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 1: wanting on our team.

894
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 4: But no, I did not try to take kombucha through

895
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:35,280
Speaker 4: the security.

896
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:36,160
Speaker 3: If that's your question.

897
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:40,439
Speaker 2: Interesting? Interesting, All right, Well, how do you feel about

898
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:42,880
Speaker 2: the direction the NIH is taking and that RFK Junior

899
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:45,760
Speaker 2: is steering the medical research community.

900
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 3: Towards I have really mixed feelings.

901
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 4: I mean, I feel really sad about the way that

902
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 4: the research enterprise has just been like completely disrupted. There's

903
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 4: been so many people who have lost their jobs or

904
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:01,960
Speaker 4: like really important projects, like twenty six long passion projects

905
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 4: of teams of people that were really centrally important to

906
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 4: health and they've just been canceled. So, I mean, that

907
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:13,239
Speaker 4: type of tragedy is very hard to even begin to understand.

908
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 3: But there, you know.

909
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 4: I think there are elements of what they're trying to

910
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:21,319
Speaker 4: do in terms of focusing more on diet. I think

911
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 4: that's that is actually wise. I don't always agree with

912
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:27,239
Speaker 4: the types of diets that they're talking about, but I

913
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:29,920
Speaker 4: do agree with the idea that a big part of

914
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 4: why Americans are less healthy and there's a lot of

915
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 4: chronic disease is connected to our food environment, and fixing

916
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 4: that is a massive projects. It's not just about telling

917
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:43,720
Speaker 4: people that they should eat healthier. We've been doing that forever.

918
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 4: I mean, what second grader doesn't know that they should

919
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:48,840
Speaker 4: eat more fruits and vegetables. We all heard that. So

920
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 4: getting ourselves to do. It is not a small project.

921
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 1: I don't want to derail us, and I won't, but

922
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 1: I just want on the record that I am like

923
00:47:56,840 --> 00:48:00,319
Speaker 1: massively opposed to what RFK Junior has been doing, like

924
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 1: the vaccination schedules for kids, and so I'm just going

925
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:07,319
Speaker 1: to take a second to plug the American Academy of Pediatrics.

926
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:09,360
Speaker 1: They've got a website that has what I think is

927
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 1: the best schedule for vaccines, you know, for kids and adults,

928
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 1: and so you know, I'd like to just go on

929
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 1: the record as being massively opposed to that in particular.

930
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I could not agree more.

931
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:23,759
Speaker 4: And that's a really important resource, which which I teach

932
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 4: that in every microclass, like to make sure that the

933
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:30,719
Speaker 4: students are ambassadors for microbiology and for vaccination. It's like

934
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:33,959
Speaker 4: one of the most important advances our society has ever

935
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 4: come up with.

936
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 3: Whoop woop.

937
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:39,279
Speaker 2: So Katrina, give us the bottom line. My takeaway is

938
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 2: that to influence your health, it's mostly affected by what

939
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 2: you eat, and so you should eat more fiber if

940
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:48,280
Speaker 2: you want, like less exema and fewer allergies, et cetera.

941
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 2: But also, while it's fine to shower, it's important to

942
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:55,279
Speaker 2: also be exposed to all sorts of crazy stuff out

943
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 2: there in the environment so that your immune system doesn't overreact.

944
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 2: Is that a fair way to bottom it or give

945
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:01,759
Speaker 2: us some more nuance on it.

946
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:03,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, I like that bottom line.

947
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:06,880
Speaker 4: I think in early life, the exposures, both for your

948
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:11,279
Speaker 4: gut microbiome and your general exposures in your world make

949
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:13,960
Speaker 4: a really big difference to how your immune system develops

950
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 4: and then.

951
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 3: Throughout your life.

952
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 4: Like the way Kelly brought up the fact that these

953
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:23,239
Speaker 4: changes can keep occurring in adulthood, that's fascinating and definitely true.

954
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:25,360
Speaker 4: It's something you have some control over, so it's a

955
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 4: good thing that way. I'm thinking about diet that we

956
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:31,239
Speaker 4: can change our exposures that way. In terms of showering,

957
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:33,480
Speaker 4: I mean, I think the way that most of us

958
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:35,920
Speaker 4: are living showering every day. In fact, I heard Julie

959
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:38,879
Speaker 4: Saeigra say many times that you by showering every day,

960
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:42,960
Speaker 4: you are protecting yourself from infection, and in those healthcare contexts,

961
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:45,839
Speaker 4: I think that's very true. As she was saying that,

962
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:48,960
Speaker 4: I was also thinking about these groups of people who

963
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:51,440
Speaker 4: are most of humans. Before one hundred years ago, we

964
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:54,239
Speaker 4: were not showering every day, and so I think it's

965
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:57,400
Speaker 4: interesting to imagine a future where we don't use products

966
00:49:57,480 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 4: to strip the oils and then other products to add

967
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:01,840
Speaker 4: the oils back. But I personally don't know how to

968
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:04,360
Speaker 4: change that in my daily life, and it's going fine

969
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:07,160
Speaker 4: for me. So I think our current way of doing

970
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 4: things works, but I could imagine a future where we're

971
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 4: more savvy about that and we get ourselves to a

972
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 4: more balanced state where we don't need to use products

973
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:19,279
Speaker 4: to strip the oils and different ones to add them back.

974
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 1: I will continue showering, but eat more beans, which I

975
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:25,759
Speaker 1: always do more of in the week after you've been

976
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:28,440
Speaker 1: on the show, but I get to sustain that, but

977
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 1: I always really remember in that week.

978
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:34,319
Speaker 2: And so does this nuanced understanding of hygiene? You know

979
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:36,879
Speaker 2: that it's good to be exposed to these things and

980
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 2: to be out on the farm. Does that extend to,

981
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:44,279
Speaker 2: for example, office hygiene. Is there potentially some science to

982
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:48,640
Speaker 2: Zach Weinersmith's claim that he works better in an office

983
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:52,239
Speaker 2: with like dorito bags on the floor and inspires his creativity.

984
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 2: Can we make that sort of leap?

985
00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, I have the best favorite study to

986
00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:00,319
Speaker 4: share with you. So last year my lab didn't do

987
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 4: spring cleaning. We did spring greening, and we were inspired

988
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 4: by the same Finish institute I told you about where

989
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:10,680
Speaker 4: they stripped the concrete off the playgrounds and put gardens

990
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:12,879
Speaker 4: and dirt for the kids to play with. Well, they

991
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:16,800
Speaker 4: extended this to offices and they made these green walls

992
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:19,360
Speaker 4: and they were very fancy. I can share the reference.

993
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:22,600
Speaker 4: The green walls cost seven thousand dollars or euros or something,

994
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 4: so we did not buy a seven thousand euro greenwall

995
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:25,839
Speaker 4: for my lab.

996
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 3: But what they found in this study was when they

997
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:28,760
Speaker 3: put these.

998
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:32,520
Speaker 4: Green walls that allowed for air to be filtered over

999
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:34,960
Speaker 4: the leaves of the plants. And I don't know if

1000
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:38,320
Speaker 4: it was hydroponic or if there was soil, but certainly

1001
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:40,400
Speaker 4: there wasn't a lot of soil. But the point of

1002
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:44,160
Speaker 4: this greening was to have the plants filtering the air

1003
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:48,319
Speaker 4: in akin to an HVAC system, and they had you know,

1004
00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:52,080
Speaker 4: airflow organized around it. And they put them into modern

1005
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 4: office buildings and also into hospitals, and also into less

1006
00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:01,560
Speaker 4: modern office buildings that had less current circulation. And they

1007
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:04,239
Speaker 4: found that the buildings that started out with less circulation

1008
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:07,480
Speaker 4: had the biggest improvements. But they did study I believe

1009
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:10,880
Speaker 4: they studied the skin microbiomes of the office workers, and

1010
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:13,800
Speaker 4: the message I got was that there was general improvement.

1011
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:15,280
Speaker 3: I'm happy to share the paper.

1012
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:18,480
Speaker 4: And so my lab took that result and took it

1013
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:20,719
Speaker 4: upon ourselves to build a green wall in our lab

1014
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:23,880
Speaker 4: and it's been a real source of joy. And so

1015
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 4: I'm not sure how that relates to Zach Queener Smith's

1016
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:31,200
Speaker 4: you know office.

1017
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 2: Let's give Kelly some ammunition here, come on organization.

1018
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:37,799
Speaker 4: But if he were to add a green wall to

1019
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:41,840
Speaker 4: his office, I think that is likely to have positive impact.

1020
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:44,840
Speaker 1: And we don't mean let mold grow on the walls

1021
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 1: or something. I mean purposefully, you know, bring nice plants in.

1022
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:54,000
Speaker 4: Yes, I mold is usually not a positive for for health,

1023
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:56,799
Speaker 4: but I mean I'm open to ideas there.

1024
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:01,399
Speaker 1: I'm not it's not my home, all right.

1025
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:03,360
Speaker 2: So talking about weird creators, my last question for you

1026
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:07,080
Speaker 2: is maybe predictable. When we meet aliens, are we going

1027
00:53:07,160 --> 00:53:09,000
Speaker 2: to discover that they take showers?

1028
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:10,400
Speaker 3: Wow?

1029
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:13,239
Speaker 4: I mean, think about how space travel would be so

1030
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:15,480
Speaker 4: much easier if you didn't have to take a shower.

1031
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:19,400
Speaker 4: Like maybe there's going to be future technologies where it

1032
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:21,279
Speaker 4: is like a shower in the set I'm sure the

1033
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:23,200
Speaker 4: aliens will have good hygiene. I mean, if they make

1034
00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:24,960
Speaker 4: it all the way you hear from where they are,

1035
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:29,439
Speaker 4: I'm guessing they have figured hygiene out, and so would

1036
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:33,719
Speaker 4: I would say I would anticipate good hygiene, but I'm

1037
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 4: not sure that they'll take water based showers.

1038
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:38,880
Speaker 2: So when the craft lands in the center off you

1039
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:42,920
Speaker 2: see Irvine and the door opens, you're expecting like nice

1040
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:44,000
Speaker 2: smells to come out.

1041
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 3: I was just thinking about that nend beans.

1042
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:52,279
Speaker 2: Alien kombucha.

1043
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:55,480
Speaker 4: I think it's possible that their smells will be pretty

1044
00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:58,359
Speaker 4: foreign to us, so I can't really promise that a

1045
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:00,239
Speaker 4: modern human will like the smell.

1046
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:05,400
Speaker 2: Fair enough, all right, thank you Katrina for coming on

1047
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 2: the show again and answering our absurd, ridiculous questions with

1048
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:11,360
Speaker 2: a good sense of humor and scientific basis.

1049
00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:13,400
Speaker 1: We can't wait to have you back on the show again.

1050
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 2: Thanks everybody for listening. Please go and do us a

1051
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:25,759
Speaker 2: favor and rate the show on whatever podcast app you're using.

1052
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:27,399
Speaker 2: It really helps people find us.

1053
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:31,880
Speaker 1: Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is edited by the amazing

1054
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:32,600
Speaker 1: Matt Kesselman.

1055
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:36,040
Speaker 2: He really is a wizard. You can also find us

1056
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:41,280
Speaker 2: online on Blue Sky Instagram and x D and K Universe.

1057
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:42,560
Speaker 2: Come engage with us.

1058
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:46,160
Speaker 1: You can email us at questions at Danielankelly dot org.

1059
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:48,480
Speaker 1: We really do want to hear from you, and you.

1060
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:52,439
Speaker 2: Can find our website www dot danieland Kelly dot org,

1061
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:55,799
Speaker 2: where you'll also find an invitation to join our discord

1062
00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:59,120
Speaker 2: where everybody comes and talks about the amazing universe.

1063
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:03,360
Speaker 1: And we also have the most amazing moderators. This is

1064
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:05,960
Speaker 1: an iHeart podcast. Thanks for joining us.