1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff to blow your mind From Housetopworks dot Com. 2 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:17,439 Speaker 1: In the morning, the emissary mounted his horse and rode west. 3 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,279 Speaker 1: He left the towers and the markets behind him, trading 4 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: cramped streets and oppressive oculence for the world outside the 5 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: city walls. He passed beneath the gates barbed portcullis, crossed 6 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: the moat, and passed the morning amid the varied towns 7 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 1: that composed the empire. The people noted the insignias upon 8 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: his coat and knotted as he rode past. Children and 9 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: dogs ran along beside him till he passed beyond their 10 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 1: meager worlds as well. By afternoon, wide fields of cultivated 11 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: crops opened up around him, stretching to the horizon. Mines 12 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: and logging operations popped the hills by dust. He arrived 13 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: at those ragged flags that marked the Empire's edge, engaged 14 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:05,320 Speaker 1: out on a darkening world. Law it's an unconquered home. 15 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:09,319 Speaker 1: To people's alien in language and thought, all manner of 16 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:13,559 Speaker 1: death and liberation, so you could team and writhed within 17 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 1: the gloaming. Hey, welcome to stuff to blow your mind. 18 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,400 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Joe McCormick and 19 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: Robert I assumed that that reading was supposed to evoke 20 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: a certain feeling. Now, what was that you were going for? 21 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: I wanted to evoke the feeling of the frontier, of 22 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: traveling from the center of a civilization to the outer 23 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: boundaries of it. Now, specifically, we talked about the literary 24 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: style of J. M. Kutzi, who wrote the book Waiting 25 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:46,040 Speaker 1: for the Barbarians, which we've both read, right, yeah, yeah, 26 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: one of my favorite books. And uh I was thinking 27 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: about doing a quote from it to kick this off, 28 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: but I thought, well, well, I don't know, just kind 29 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: of cobble something together that that invokes Waiting for the 30 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: Barbarians and serves our purpose directly. So this is like 31 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: synthetic Coatsy by you. Yeah, yeah, and I'm you know, 32 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 1: and I Coatsy is one of those guys that dig enough. 33 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 1: There's probably a little bit of synthetic Coatsy and a 34 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: lot of things I write. Uh well, definitely, uh, definitely 35 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: an influential writer. Well, you could do worse than to 36 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 1: have that. But of course today that means we're going 37 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,519 Speaker 1: to be talking about frontiers, and I guess we should 38 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:22,399 Speaker 1: just explain why this idea came up. So just recently, 39 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: Robert Christian and I went to the c t E 40 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 1: two conference in Chicago, and we're talking about the eighteen 41 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: ninety three Chicago World's Fair, the World's Columbian Exposition. And 42 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 1: one of the topics that I was researching that we 43 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: didn't end up incorporating into our presentation, there was this 44 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: presentation that was delivered in in Chicago in the eighteen nineties, 45 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: usually reported as being delivered during the World's Fair in 46 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 1: eighteen ninety three by the historian, the American historian Frederick 47 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: Jackson Turner, and it's known as the Frontier Thesis. The 48 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 1: the essay itself is the significance of the frontier in 49 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 1: American history. You And that got us thinking about the 50 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: idea of frontiers, what what a frontier means, what it represents, uh, 51 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: what kind of flaws are there in the idea of 52 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: a frontier. And so that's what we wanted to explore uday. 53 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: Eventually we will get to that essay by Turner and 54 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: talk about it's it's meaning, it's influence, and some criticisms 55 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 1: of it, but we also wanted to explore more generally 56 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: the idea of the frontier, especially also how it fits 57 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 1: into what's known as world systems theory. Yeah, we wanted 58 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 1: to go deeper than just sort of the the basic 59 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 1: idea frontier. I feel like earlier generations you had Western 60 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: movies and Western fiction and that was kind of the 61 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: go to model, and certainly all that stuff still around, 62 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: but I think more and more younger people probably have 63 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: that Game of Thrones vision. Right right, there's the wall, 64 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: that's the frontier on one side, barbarians and white walkers 65 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:56,119 Speaker 1: on this side. You know, some semblance of order. Yeah. 66 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: I think the frontier is often considered well in in 67 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: the in the or metaphorical reading and one very straightforward 68 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: literal reading, you could just say it's the it's the 69 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: agreed upon boundary of a civilization. But in the more 70 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: metaphorical reading you could say, well, it is where the 71 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: idea of civilization ends. It's where the laws cease to apply. Right, Yeah, 72 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:23,479 Speaker 1: there is there's a quote here that I had to 73 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: pull out from Corman McCarthy's Blood Meridian. He says, here, 74 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 1: beyond men's judgments, all covenants were brittle, which uh, which 75 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 1: which is telling? And that's certainly a work of a 76 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: frontier chaos for you. Yeah, and Blood Meridian, I think 77 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 1: very well captures a lot of the popular idea of 78 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: the frontier. And then it's a place where there are 79 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:49,919 Speaker 1: few checks on people's will to power and there is 80 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: little in the way of you know, moral civilization. I mean, 81 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:56,039 Speaker 1: part of part of what you might say there is 82 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 1: that that's just Corman McCarthy's influence coming through. But yeah, 83 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: it's a ace of of betrayal, of individualism, of of 84 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: struggle for power, of violence. Uh what else would you say? Well, 85 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: all these things, certainly, but but yeah, I want to 86 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:14,479 Speaker 1: make sure we're also hitting on the positive aspects, you know, 87 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: the idea of freedom, liberation, you know, just going off 88 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,279 Speaker 1: the grid right, right when everyone probably has at some 89 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:25,600 Speaker 1: point in their life fantasized about that, right like all 90 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: these modern technologies I need. I'm gonna I'm gonna move 91 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 1: to a cabin, I'm gonna have physical books, I'm gonna 92 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: read them and listen to vine or something. Right. Uh, 93 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 1: And that in a sense is is is not that 94 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 1: different from the frontier notion. But but what's going on 95 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 1: on Twitter, Like you gotta disconnect from all of that, right, 96 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 1: that's the you're getting further away from from the the 97 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 1: the the center of of modern digital digital civilization. Now, 98 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: this is the popular idea of the frontier. The the 99 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:01,280 Speaker 1: actual fact of the frontier maybe of very different beasts 100 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: than how it's conceived in these both dark and positive 101 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 1: romantic visions. Yeah, as always you can you can point 102 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 1: to examples of either, but it's probably gonna more or 103 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: less even out depending on whose side you're on, too, 104 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 1: because it's the frontier. Is is an idea that of 105 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:20,839 Speaker 1: course has two sides, and you can be an individual 106 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: that is is born into the civilization side of frontier 107 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: or into the the wild side of frontier, and it's 108 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 1: going to be a very different experience. We'll get into 109 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: all that as we explain right and now. Of course, 110 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: one of the funny things might be that you could 111 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 1: have different perspectives on which side of the frontier is which. 112 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 1: Right now, the person who's living on the side that 113 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: has more technology, more economic power, greater wealth, more population 114 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 1: density and cities and civic infrastructure, that person probably thinks 115 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 1: they live on the civilized side and the other side 116 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 1: is wild. But you could very well turn it the 117 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,039 Speaker 1: other way around and say, you know, here on our side, 118 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 1: of the frontier. We have simple, well organized communities that 119 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 1: operating cooperation, and the people on the other side have 120 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: this kind of technological pandemonium. And whatever side you're on, 121 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: you can likely look look across the boundary and say, well, 122 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: those people have totally the wrong religion. I don't know 123 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: what they're thinking. We have the right one. Uh, they 124 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: should be more like us, right, So maybe that frontier 125 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: needs to be pushed forward a little bit. Yeah. Another 126 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 1: thing worth stressing before we move forward is, of course 127 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 1: that frontiers of of one sort or another have always existed. 128 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 1: So the Wild West was not the first frontier, Uh, no, 129 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: more than like the frontier of the Roman Empire was 130 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: the first frontier. Like it, It's as long as you've 131 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: had civilizations and human communities, you've had these boundary points. Yeah. 132 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: And one of the things to keep in mind is 133 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: that a lot of people think of the frontier and 134 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: they only think of the American frontier. You can barely 135 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: come up with another one. But I'm glad you mentioned 136 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: the Roman frontier was one situation where you had a 137 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: technologically advanced civilization that had an empire, and they had 138 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 1: the boundaries of the empire, and they were constantly trying 139 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 1: to push the boundaries and move them around, trying to 140 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: conquer new people's, conquer new lands, bringing more resources. And 141 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: so they very much had a frontier that is in 142 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: a lot of ways analogous to the American Western Frontier. 143 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: They all, but you can also think about the sort 144 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: of more contemporary frontiers to the American Western frontier, like 145 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: you might have seen in Australia or in South Africa 146 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: or in other places that where you had the remnants 147 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: of European imperialism pushing into lands that were already occupied 148 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: by other people. Right. And then of course, nowadays, with 149 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:48,959 Speaker 1: with travel um such as it is, Uh, a frontier 150 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: is not always going to be as physical space, you know, 151 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: like you to to to disappear into a realm beyond 152 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 1: the domain of empire. Uh doesn't necessarily mean that you 153 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: just keep traveling west on foot. You can hop on 154 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: a plane and go somewhere else and uh, and that 155 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: factors into into all of this as well. So earlier 156 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 1: I mentioned that Robert, you wanted to talk about the 157 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: idea of frontiers in light of what's known as world 158 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:21,319 Speaker 1: systems theory. Yeah, so what's the deal with this? Explain 159 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 1: this concept to me. Okay, so world systems theory is 160 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 1: an economically charged, macro sociological attempt to understand the movements 161 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: of history, you know. Okay, so no, biggie, Well no, 162 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: I this is the kind of thing that is always 163 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:42,680 Speaker 1: very interesting and always bound to be in some sense wrong, 164 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Yeah, critics of this say 165 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: will often say, oh, well, this is too economic or 166 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:51,079 Speaker 1: it's too reductionists. I mean, anytime you try and create 167 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 1: a broad theory or model for human behavior, human culture, 168 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: it's not gonna fit perfectly. Right. What I what you 169 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: might call world tote realizing theories. Maybe that's not the 170 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: West best way to put it, the West way to 171 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: put it, but the theories that try to explain how 172 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 1: everything in some domain of knowledge works. Usually those kind 173 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: of overreach and over generalized, but at the same time 174 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 1: they can have very interesting insights. So, so, what does 175 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 1: world systems theories say about explaining movements in world history? Well? 176 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: I turned to some of the writings of De Pao 177 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 1: University socio anthropologist Thomas city Hall for some additional info. 178 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: Here he has a two thousand and one UH paper 179 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 1: that came out World Systems Frontiers and ethnogenesis, incorporation, and 180 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: resistance to state expansion. Okay, that's a lot of abstract now, 181 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:44,199 Speaker 1: all right, well let's boil it all down. So, setting 182 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 1: aside actual nation states, um world systems theory breaks down 183 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: the world to three basic components. You have the core, 184 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: the periphery, and the semi periphery. So the core is 185 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,679 Speaker 1: the center of production and special is zation and it's 186 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 1: made up of strong states. Okay, so production and specialization 187 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: means that this is your economic center. This is where 188 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: your your goods and services mainly come from. But it's 189 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: where there's like manufacturing maybe, but also specialization would mean 190 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: it's where people have more specialized job titles. So instead 191 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:23,079 Speaker 1: of being somebody who operates a homestead and does everything, 192 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 1: you might be somebody who has a very very specific 193 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 1: job that you're very good at that can be utilized 194 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: by or can be made use of by this economic 195 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 1: system to produce more and more goods. Right, and it 196 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 1: it basically lines up with our our intro fiction and 197 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 1: about the guy riding out from the center of empire. 198 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 1: But again this is this is something that that crosses 199 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 1: h traditional state boundaries. So from this point of view, 200 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: like the core would incorporate various nations. So for instance, 201 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:57,439 Speaker 1: you look at a world map that's using world systems theory, 202 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: and the US and Canada are going to one and 203 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 1: they're going to be locked in with other Western nations. 204 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: So it's less observant of things like national boundaries and 205 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 1: more observant of centers of economic production and trade. Maybe 206 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 1: they're less hip to the idea of nations and boundaries 207 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:16,319 Speaker 1: and they're just trying to figure out how the system works. 208 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:19,719 Speaker 1: So if they're just watching stuff flow around, this might 209 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: be the system they land upon. Right, So that's the core. 210 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 1: The periphery specializes in raw materials, and this is composed 211 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 1: of weak states, and the semi periphery is the intermediate area. Okay, 212 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: so you might think of this as the core. The 213 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: group we just talked about sort of exploiting the resources 214 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: of these other of the periphery states, and then the 215 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: semi periphery states are somewhere in between. So Hall and 216 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: others have also added additional rules to this world systems. 217 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,960 Speaker 1: They argued Day back to at least Neolithic times. Core 218 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: periphery structures are a major locust point of social change, 219 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,959 Speaker 1: and all of the systems evolved and have several dynamics 220 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 1: cycles involved in them. Okay, but if we said that 221 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:07,320 Speaker 1: this is less observant of national boundaries and is thinking 222 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:10,839 Speaker 1: more about economics, how do frontiers play into it? All? Right, well, 223 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 1: this is where frontiers coming to play. So various dynamics 224 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 1: cycles dictate the expansion and contraction of world systems. According 225 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 1: to Hall, these systems pulsate. Core states rise and fall, 226 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:26,079 Speaker 1: and there's a typical process typical but not universal, in 227 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: which a semi peripheral marcher state displaces or conquests after 228 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: a dominant core state. So you've got up and comers. Yeah, yeah, 229 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: So we see this cycle over time of like, uh, 230 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: you know, here the Dutcher in power, then the British 231 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: or empower, the u s or empower you know, the 232 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:46,319 Speaker 1: colonial flow of of of wreaths of modern history. And 233 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 1: I want to quote Hall here. He says thinking of 234 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:52,719 Speaker 1: a frontier as a membrane is helpful from a global perspective. 235 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 1: A frontier is relatively narrow and sharp, but from nearby 236 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 1: it is a broad zone with considerable internal spatial and 237 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 1: temporal differentiation. It's a permeability varies with the direction of flow. 238 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: And the things moving through it, types of goods, groups, 239 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:12,679 Speaker 1: and individuals. A frontier is the results of an often long, 240 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: complex and highly political process of negotiation. Okay, I think 241 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: that's a good point to make, because when you think 242 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 1: of a boundary line, to think of a line, a 243 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 1: line is something of what infinitely small width, uh, ideally 244 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 1: and in geometrical terms. But that's not really what a 245 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: frontier is. A frontier is more of a zone. Uh. 246 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 1: It's an intermediate state between different between different areas where 247 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: different principles apply. And in this zone you have a 248 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: kind of uh. Well, for one thing, he says, it's permeable, 249 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: so things move back and forth between it. But you 250 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: also have a mingling of the application of different principles. 251 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 1: It might be a place where in some sense the 252 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 1: wild principles apply and some other sense the civilization principles apply, 253 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: or the principle of different people's might mix. Yeah, and again, 254 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 1: it's just it's not that Game of Thrones idea of 255 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: the wall and just two distinct things on either side. 256 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: We see this more and more, I think, uh, with 257 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: contemporary events as powers try to see how a border 258 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 1: wall between the US and Mexico would work. Realizing well, 259 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: this is not Game of Thrones. The Again, a border 260 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: of frontier is a membrane um and when you try 261 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: and apply just a you know, a wall scenario to it, 262 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 1: various problems began to emerge. Yeah. Well, I think it 263 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: usually comes from an oversimplified understanding of what that border 264 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: means and the lack of understanding of how important it 265 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: is that that border is not actually a physical barrier, 266 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: because you know, wildlife moves back and forth, People move 267 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: back and forth for totally legitimate reasons. Uh. You know 268 00:15:55,200 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: that that in physical reality is just a landscape. Yeah. Now, 269 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: he he talks a little bit about the frontiers in 270 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: US history and defines them as areas with population densities 271 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: less than two persons per square mile. And then he 272 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: also and he's paraphrasing a couple of other writers here, 273 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 1: but he's also refers to them as quote zones of 274 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 1: historical interaction where no one has an enduring monopoly on violence. 275 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 1: So you know, very blood meridian uh esque. Uh. Summation there. 276 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: But also in keeping with what you might say is 277 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: the history of political science, because how do you define 278 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: a government? What is a government? A government is often 279 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 1: defined as the thing that has a monopoly on the 280 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: legitimate use of violence. For zone, the people who can 281 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: use violence without anybody stopping them in an area that 282 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: that is the governing body the law side. It's you know, 283 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: it's like, hey, well, violence is kind of our thing. 284 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: Violence is at the tail end of any um, any commandment, 285 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: any law, like the laws, is eventually going to be 286 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: enforced with violence, at least it has the potential to 287 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 1: be if it must be right. But yeah, so here 288 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:09,400 Speaker 1: at this border zone, you you see two overlapping areas 289 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 1: where and that doesn't always work so well because if 290 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:15,160 Speaker 1: two different people are claiming to have a monopoly on violence, 291 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 1: then neither one actually has a monopoly, right, you have 292 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:21,120 Speaker 1: a competition of violence or a free market of violence either. 293 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 1: So he points out that one of the American West 294 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: was an internal and contested frontier. Uh, there are other 295 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 1: sorts of frontiers as well, neutral frontiers, for example, and 296 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: he brings up Southeast Asia as an example of a 297 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: neutral frontier historically between the major cultures of China and India. 298 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:44,399 Speaker 1: He says, quote it was both shaped by and shaped 299 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: the patterns of interaction of cores of these erstwhile separate 300 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 1: world systems. Okay, yeah, And if you think to to 301 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,959 Speaker 1: East Asian cultures and you think of of the influences 302 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:01,360 Speaker 1: of India and China, um, you know, intermingling. And certainly 303 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 1: it's it's not even as simple as that, because Buddhism 304 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,199 Speaker 1: emerges from India and it becomes a major component of 305 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:11,200 Speaker 1: Chinese civilization. But still, in a rough sense, you can 306 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:14,680 Speaker 1: you can see these these two major cultures coming together 307 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 1: and as their waters meet, uh, it's kind of like 308 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,719 Speaker 1: a brackish area of salt and fresh and taking on 309 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: all these uh these diverse uh and and fascinating culture. Right. 310 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 1: But of course the springs up another important aspect of 311 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:32,879 Speaker 1: frontiers which often might get overlooked, which is the people 312 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,399 Speaker 1: who have less power, who dwell within the frontier zone, 313 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:41,159 Speaker 1: who often are not treated very well by the idea 314 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 1: of a frontier overlapping with where they live. Oh yeah, 315 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: to to say to say the least, uh yeah. Hall 316 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: points out that at this point in history, most indigenous 317 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:54,119 Speaker 1: groups have experienced several waves of what he refers to 318 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 1: as incorporation, uh, incorporation into this this new culture and 319 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 1: incorporation that's that's sort of like when you fall under 320 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: the shadow of the monopoly of violence right and incorporation 321 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:09,479 Speaker 1: itself UH can lead to several different possibilities, and they 322 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:15,120 Speaker 1: range from genocide and cultural side to assimilation transformation into 323 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 1: a minority group. But at the same time, UH incorporation 324 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,439 Speaker 1: itself is changing, so there are virtually no non state 325 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 1: societies left to incorporate in the world. So, in other words, 326 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: there are virtually no more frontiers, no new territories, no 327 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: new people, repeated incorporations of deluded human cultural diversity, and 328 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 1: the very frontiers that are vanishing were long the zones 329 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:45,160 Speaker 1: of of ethnogenesis, of creativity, of new ideas emerging from 330 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: repeated interactions and often hostile conditions. So I refer to 331 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,199 Speaker 1: this a little bit talking about UH. You know that 332 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: example of East Asian cultures and civilizations. Another great example 333 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 1: I think is when you look at Caribbean cultures, where 334 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:03,159 Speaker 1: you see this this hostile coming together of all these 335 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 1: different elements, you know, colonialism, slavery, the eradication of indigenous people's, 336 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 1: all of this is horrible, and yet at the same time, 337 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: out of it you do see rich cultures emerge. I mean, 338 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:19,119 Speaker 1: just just looking at Jamaica alone, you see all of 339 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: these these fantastic ideas and models and art forms, reggae music, 340 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:30,199 Speaker 1: dub music, Rastafari cuisine, all the all the all the 341 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 1: all the attributes of any culture, but with each Caribbean 342 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:38,920 Speaker 1: aisle it takes on a slightly different um, a different form. Now, 343 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: the idea of how frontiers work changing throughout history is 344 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 1: something I probably, I guess I haven't considered much before, 345 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 1: but that is really interesting because you can think about 346 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 1: multiple waves of this. For example, I think about the 347 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: first wave of human colonization of the planet. It's kind 348 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 1: of mind boggling to think of the fact that there 349 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: were times when humans were colonizing large swaths of land 350 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 1: that no had no humans in them already. That you 351 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 1: would arrive at a new place and it would be 352 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 1: populated by plants and animals, and that was what you 353 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:17,879 Speaker 1: had to compete with. And so you could think about 354 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,160 Speaker 1: there being a frontier of a kind there where you're 355 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: forging a true frontier into the wilderness. And when people 356 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: talked about the frontier of the American West, a lot 357 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:29,360 Speaker 1: of a lot of the you know, the racist way 358 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,479 Speaker 1: to formulate it would be we're just settling a wild land, 359 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 1: But in fact, the land was occupied by people, and 360 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:39,199 Speaker 1: there was yeah, and there was a time when you 361 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 1: could settle much land that was not occupied by people, 362 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:46,959 Speaker 1: and so that was a totally different frontier, uh world 363 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 1: system there where you're you're settling places that have no 364 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:54,880 Speaker 1: human competition. It's literally primeval. Then you've got this other 365 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,160 Speaker 1: system where where we think about this sort of sort 366 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: of the ideas of colonialism, where you might have a 367 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 1: society with a strong central government and a lot of 368 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:08,400 Speaker 1: economic and technological power forging frontiers into lands that are 369 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 1: are already settled by people but who don't necessarily have 370 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: strong central governments and uh, you know, a lot of 371 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:19,639 Speaker 1: economic and technological exchange, and and those two phases I 372 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: guess you might be able to say have brought us 373 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 1: mostly up to modernity. So one wonders if the idea 374 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:28,199 Speaker 1: of the frontier makes any sense moving forward now that 375 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 1: we live in a world mostly with nation states that 376 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: have central governments. Well, it's Hall points out, you have, Yeah, 377 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,400 Speaker 1: you have fewer and fewer external frontiers. Yeah, I mean, 378 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: certainly you can make the case for the space the 379 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: final frontier, etcetera, which is more like that original primeval 380 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,400 Speaker 1: frontier hopefully, Yeah, or you know, you could also make 381 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 1: cases for like for the the the exploration and the 382 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:57,160 Speaker 1: establishment of underwater habitats, etcetera. They're very sci fi answers. 383 00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: But he he points out that internal frontiers are now 384 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:04,199 Speaker 1: more common than external, especially frontiers between zones of the 385 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 1: world system itself. Um, where it's where the core meets 386 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:12,440 Speaker 1: the periphery or the semi periphery along For example, the 387 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 1: US Mexico border is one of the examples he brings 388 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 1: to mind. So we're constantly getting new divisions in society, 389 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 1: new frontiers forming more and more every day. UM. So, yeah, 390 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,399 Speaker 1: you can just look at this this sort of fracturing. 391 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 1: I don't want to say that in a cataclysmic sense, 392 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:33,120 Speaker 1: like the fracturing of culture. Basically, as as uh, all 393 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 1: these divisions in society continue to make themselves known, you 394 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: kind of have individual frontiers that weave themselves throughout that system. 395 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: That's interesting. I guess I hadn't thought of it like that. 396 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 1: All right, Well, we're gonna do a quick break and 397 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: when we come back, we will take a look at 398 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:56,119 Speaker 1: the frontier thesis. All right, we're back. So if you 399 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 1: listen to our live episode that was recorded at C 400 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: two e two. Then the you know what we were 401 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: talking about. We were talking about the Columbian Exposition. Um, 402 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:08,199 Speaker 1: all these wonderful ideas and technologies coming together on a 403 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 1: tide of cultural change. And as we were putting this together, uh, 404 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,399 Speaker 1: we had some wonderful ideas that didn't make final cut 405 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 1: because we're very limited for time, really, uh. And one 406 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: of these great ideas was the Frontier thesis. And that's 407 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 1: the reason that we ended up putting this episode together. Yeah. 408 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 1: So the Frontier Thesis is first articulated in the essay 409 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: or lecture The Significance of the Frontier in American History 410 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 1: by the American historian Frederick Jackson Turner. Now. Turner was 411 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,639 Speaker 1: born in Wisconsin in eighteen sixty one. He went to 412 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 1: the University of Wisconsin and then JOHNS. Hopkins, and he 413 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 1: became a historian. By most accounts, I should note that 414 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,639 Speaker 1: I've seen some discrepancy here. Most accounts say that this 415 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 1: lecture was first delivered during the World's Fair eighteen ninety 416 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 1: three in Chicago, uh, to a meeting of fellow historians. 417 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:55,680 Speaker 1: But I have encountered one source at least claiming it 418 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: was first delivered in eighteen ninety four. I'm not sure 419 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 1: if that's an outlier or it's going on there, but 420 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,159 Speaker 1: I believe the cases this was first delivered during the 421 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: World's Fair and the Frontier thesis as it came to 422 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:11,399 Speaker 1: be known. We should start by saying is not accepted 423 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 1: uncritically by the historians of today, that this is not 424 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 1: gospel truth about how to interpret American history. However, I 425 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,159 Speaker 1: think it is worth a look because of how influential 426 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,399 Speaker 1: it was on American historical thinking, how how it proved 427 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: to be one of the most influential ideas in the 428 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 1: study of American history, and how it shaped how a 429 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 1: lot of people thought about the national character of the 430 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: United States up until today. It still is an influential idea, 431 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: even if most historians don't just accept it uncritically and 432 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: say he got everything right. I mean that it's kind 433 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 1: of like the idea of manifest destiny, right right, Like 434 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 1: nobody today is arguing to manifest destiny is a legitimate 435 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 1: reason to do anything. But looking back historically, we can 436 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 1: we can look at it as a as part of 437 00:25:55,560 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: the motivation and rationale for for the for the expansion, 438 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 1: for the Western expansion. Yeah, even if manifest destiny was 439 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 1: not a correct interpretation of how the world worked. It 440 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: certainly determined how people thought about how the world worked, 441 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 1: and it's worth understanding just for that. So let's get 442 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: into Turner's thesis, as he explains in this lecture. Now, 443 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 1: Turner's main idea here is that the character of the 444 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:28,159 Speaker 1: United States, that American culture, is largely determined by the 445 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 1: presence of an expanding frontier, and that that is what 446 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:37,639 Speaker 1: gives us the America we know today, American democracy, American culture, 447 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: what you think of as particular to the American consciousness. 448 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 1: Now you you go back to colonial times, and one 449 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: of the things you notice, or at least as Turner 450 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: points out, is that the authorities in earlier America always 451 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 1: always wanted to contain the impulse toward westward expansion. They, 452 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: like the English lord's, feared losing control of the colonies. 453 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 1: I was talking to my wife Rachel about this, and 454 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,680 Speaker 1: she she gave the metaphor of the parents saying, now 455 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 1: stay where I can see you, which is pretty much 456 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:11,920 Speaker 1: right as far as I can tell. That the European 457 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 1: authorities didn't want the colonies getting out of hand, so 458 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 1: they wanted to keep them kind of close to where 459 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,920 Speaker 1: their centers of access to the colonies were and an 460 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 1: explanation of this, Turner has this large quote from Burke 461 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: that is just I just love it, so I want 462 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,119 Speaker 1: to read this quote. Uh, stay with me for a second. 463 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,399 Speaker 1: Here Burke says, quote, if you stopped your grants, and 464 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 1: he's talking about grants of frontier land, if you stopped 465 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,160 Speaker 1: your grants, what would be the consequence the people would 466 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: occupy without grants. They have already so occupied in many places. 467 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,880 Speaker 1: You cannot station garrisons in every part of these deserts. 468 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 1: If you drive the people from one place, they will 469 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: carry on their annual tillage and remove with their flocks 470 00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: and herds to another. Many of the people in the 471 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:04,919 Speaker 1: Act settlements are already little attached to particular situations. Already 472 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: they have topped the Appalachian Mountains. From thence they behold 473 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:13,160 Speaker 1: before them an immense plain, one vast, rich level meadow, 474 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 1: a square of five hundred miles. Over this they would 475 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 1: wander without a possibility of restraint. They would change their 476 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 1: manners with their habits of life, would soon forget a 477 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,879 Speaker 1: government by which they were disowned, would become hordes of 478 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 1: English tartars and pouring down upon your unfortified frontiers of 479 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: fierce and irresistible cavalry become masters of your governors and 480 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: your counselors, your collectors and comptrollers, and all of the 481 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 1: slaves that adhered to them. Such would, and in no 482 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 1: long time must, be the effect of attempting to forbid 483 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 1: as a crime and to suppress as an evil, the 484 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:55,960 Speaker 1: command and blessing of Providence increase and multiply. Such would 485 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 1: be the happy result of an endeavor to keep as 486 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: a layer of wild beasts that earth which God, by 487 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 1: an express charter has given to the children of men. 488 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 1: So Burke has a rather convincing literary style. But I think, 489 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: going back to our Game of Thrones analogy, one thing 490 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: I noticed here is what what's he saying exactly in 491 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 1: Game of Thrones terms, he's saying, be careful if you 492 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 1: try to tell people not to go north, they're going 493 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 1: to turn into wild lings. Yeah, he's predicting a wild 494 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 1: ling invasion of the United States. And of course it's raises, 495 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 1: you know, questions of how does any how does any 496 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 1: culture maintain itself? What is the what is the skeletal 497 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: system that's holding it together? Anyway? Yeah? Uh, yes, absolutely, 498 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: I mean it is it is definitely a question to 499 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 1: keep in mind that the future of of America being 500 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: one nation was not set at that time. It was 501 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 1: not even sure of course that it would achieve independence, 502 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 1: which I'm sure the English authorities did not want. But yeah, 503 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 1: there are a lot of ways The European colonization of 504 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 1: the North American continent could have gone went one way, 505 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 1: but it could have gone another. And some United States 506 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 1: leaders in the European tradition, for example, President John Quincy Adams, 507 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: wanted to also keep society pretty close to to the shore. 508 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: He wanted to use the public lands out west as 509 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: a source of renewable wealth and to to use that 510 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 1: land to enrich and invest in compact settlements in the east. 511 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: So in a sense, he was saying, hey, this is 512 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 1: the core, that's the periphery and the semi periphery. We're 513 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 1: not going to turn that into the core too, exactly 514 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 1: firm and established. The core is on the east, and 515 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: we've got this vast periphery out there, and we want 516 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: to explore exploit its natural resources to invest in the 517 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 1: core and make make the core very livable and very 518 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 1: wealthy and very well developed. If we build more house 519 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 1: in the backyard, where where will we pay play croquet? 520 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 1: Where we plan are to mat it? Where where will 521 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 1: our you know, our mining and our other you know, 522 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 1: ranching resources come from. Now, religious authorities also feared loss 523 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 1: of influence over the west. Turner makes this point interestingly. 524 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 1: He says, the East was, of course the urban center 525 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 1: of Orthodox preaching for whatever religious sect do you belong to, 526 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: And to separate yourself from the center of Orthodox preaching 527 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 1: was to open yourself up to spiritual error. So a 528 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 1: lot of the religious authorities were mighty concerned about people 529 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: going west out of the place where the Orthodox preaching 530 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 1: would reach them. Who knows what kind of heresies they 531 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: might develop. Indeed, and we we touch on this in 532 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 1: the c T E two presentation, of course, when we 533 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: talk about the the the Parliament of World Religions and 534 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 1: the new religious movements, many of which sprang up in 535 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: the United States, uh, and most particularly the Church of 536 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 1: Latter day Saints, which was very much a a new 537 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 1: religious movement that was was a frontier religion, Yeah, and 538 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 1: very fundamentally American, you might say, in its character. Even 539 00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 1: the Missouri Senator Thomas Benton gets quoted by by Turner here, 540 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 1: And this is funny because Benton was actually well known 541 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 1: for being pro westward expansion He was a he was 542 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 1: a pro frontier guy. But even he wrote that along 543 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 1: the edge of the Rocky Mountains quote, the western limits 544 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,959 Speaker 1: of the Republic should be drawn, and the statue of 545 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: the fabled god Terminus should be raised upon its highest peak, 546 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: never to be thrown down. So this is a westward expansionist, 547 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 1: but he's saying, no, put the Roman god Terminus on 548 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 1: the Rocky mountains. Don't let anybody go beyond. Now. Of course, 549 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 1: Terminus was this Roman god, the god of borders in frontiers, 550 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 1: who you might have an altar to right at the border, 551 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:42,240 Speaker 1: saying this is where, yeah, this is where civilization end. Membrand. 552 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 1: That's great, this is where civilization ends. But it might 553 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 1: also be where the power and influence of your god's end. 554 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 1: But according to Turner, the people of this mindset, the 555 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:55,720 Speaker 1: people who are saying, okay, there should be some limit 556 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 1: to how far you can go west. We've got to 557 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 1: draw the line somewhere and keep people to the east. 558 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 1: These authorities were not able to control people's lust for land. 559 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 1: People did not necessarily want to live in some compact 560 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 1: department in Philadelphia with nearby access to well paved roads 561 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 1: and clean city water pumps that were paid for by 562 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 1: the Bounty of Western Lands. They wanted land of their own, 563 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: and so in many cases they just claimed it. And 564 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: there were a lot of leaders who were on their side. 565 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 1: For example, Andrew Jackson, he was a westward expansionist, and 566 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 1: through this process, Turner says, westward expansion created the idea 567 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 1: of the frontier. It was this westward moving, continually moving 568 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 1: boundary line that shaped the development of American culture and 569 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 1: uniquely guided the progress of American history. Now, what happens 570 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: along the frontier, it's it's you might think about, Okay, 571 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: we think of Oregon Trail, maybe pioneers moving, But how 572 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 1: do you actually make a living if you're trying to 573 00:33:56,080 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 1: settle westward lands away from the cities that you came um. 574 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 1: The way Turner explains it is he thinks that frontier 575 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 1: life represents quote a return to primitive conditions where you 576 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 1: always have to recapitulate the evolution of civilization from primeval society. So, 577 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 1: because the frontier is always moving, you have to keep 578 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 1: doing this recapitulation of the evolution of civilization over and 579 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,880 Speaker 1: over a little bit further and further west. So first 580 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:29,319 Speaker 1: you might have traders and hunters and trappers, and then 581 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,320 Speaker 1: you might have ranchers, and then you might have people 582 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 1: setting up farmsteads, and then you might have people setting 583 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:39,719 Speaker 1: up very small basic communities to support the farmsteads, which 584 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 1: in turn turn into cities. Then there's technological development. Finally 585 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 1: there's connection via via higher higher tech transportation like railroads 586 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,839 Speaker 1: and steamships and all that. And each time you move west, 587 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,280 Speaker 1: you have to keep doing this over and over again. 588 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 1: Now you can imagine that if this is in fact 589 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,920 Speaker 1: what happens along a frontier, this would certainly have some 590 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 1: kind of effect on the culture of the people living there, right, Yeah, yeah, 591 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,359 Speaker 1: because you're it's almost like their time traveling, right yea, 592 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: the civilizational time traveling um event every time uh, somebody 593 00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:15,399 Speaker 1: moves out a little further into the frontier. Yeah, It's 594 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,399 Speaker 1: it's almost perfectly what he's imagining. He's like, every time 595 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: you you go another ten miles, you go back in time, however, 596 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:26,440 Speaker 1: a hundred years or something. Um. And so he says 597 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 1: that this also means that the cities that rise up 598 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,400 Speaker 1: along the moving American frontier, and eventually there are cities 599 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 1: are influenced less and less by the culture of Europe 600 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 1: and more and more by the harsh necessities of surviving 601 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 1: in the landscape. Now, he says that the frontier tends 602 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:47,399 Speaker 1: to have a unifying effect on the colonists, because one 603 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,200 Speaker 1: thing you've got is a common hardship. And what they 604 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,040 Speaker 1: thought of they had this perceived threat from the native 605 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,399 Speaker 1: inhabitants of the continent. Uh. Now, of course you might 606 00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 1: say that the real threat was going probably more the 607 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:02,840 Speaker 1: other direction, but it also kept this spirit of violence. 608 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:06,840 Speaker 1: Turner says that functioned as an unofficial military training school 609 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:12,760 Speaker 1: because they were they were constantly expanding into Native American lands, 610 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,520 Speaker 1: and because this lad to violent conflict, it's sort of 611 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 1: militarized American life. Turner says, it trained people living along 612 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:24,839 Speaker 1: the frontier for war, even during peacetime, even when there's 613 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 1: no war going on. You've got this culture that's constantly 614 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,799 Speaker 1: training for violent, armed conflict, and that this informs the 615 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,719 Speaker 1: American culture at large. Yeah. I mean, even to this day, 616 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 1: the the the icon of the cowboy still carries a 617 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 1: fair amount of weight, even not just the the literal cowboy, 618 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 1: of course, not just one who maintains a herd of cattle, 619 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:52,759 Speaker 1: but like the frontiersman. Uh is still this this this 620 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,920 Speaker 1: very American concept that that resonates in our culture. I mean, 621 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 1: think about your image of the frontiersman in your mind. 622 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:01,680 Speaker 1: Whether or not this is correct. I think this is 623 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:06,919 Speaker 1: probably mostly correct. You picture it. What's he holding? He's 624 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,719 Speaker 1: holding a rifle. Yeah, and he might be if he's 625 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 1: if he's less of a desert type frontiers and he's 626 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,760 Speaker 1: probably draped in furs as well. Right, they're always armed 627 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 1: and to some degree or at least Turner's ideas that 628 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:23,359 Speaker 1: this is correct, that it's a very it's a very 629 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:28,600 Speaker 1: gun focused, military focused, violence focused society, and that this 630 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:33,320 Speaker 1: leads to an inherent underlying thread of violence that's woven 631 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,920 Speaker 1: into the American character and still has effects when Turner 632 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,880 Speaker 1: was writing in the eighteen nineties. So that's one effect. 633 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 1: But he also says, you know, the Frontier created what 634 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:46,319 Speaker 1: he would call a composite nationality of American people. It 635 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 1: led less to the European American people being primarily just 636 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:55,319 Speaker 1: English people, and said that the American character was the 637 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 1: people along the frontier who were Scott's Irish who were 638 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 1: Germans who are Pennsylvania Dutch. There were many settlers of 639 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 1: the colonial frontier who came from other populations of Europeans, 640 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:09,360 Speaker 1: and it also included these people who he refers to 641 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:14,360 Speaker 1: as redemption ers, who were freed indentured servants. Now, he 642 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 1: also says the advance of the frontier decreased the United 643 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:21,600 Speaker 1: States dependence on England. As settlements retreated further away from 644 00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:24,160 Speaker 1: the coast, it became a lot harder for England to 645 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,279 Speaker 1: trade directly with them, so England had a lot less 646 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:31,719 Speaker 1: power over them. As we know today, economic relationships do 647 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 1: equal influence and power. At the same time, he also 648 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,920 Speaker 1: says the frontier encouraged nationalization. Now, I think this is 649 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 1: going to be an interesting one, especially in light of 650 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 1: something we get to in a minute, which is his 651 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:47,440 Speaker 1: ideas about the frontier and individualism. But he says it 652 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:52,520 Speaker 1: encouraged nationalization because the frontier fraterneries the reason the United 653 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:56,240 Speaker 1: States is a unified country rather than just a loosely 654 00:38:56,280 --> 00:39:00,400 Speaker 1: associated collection of states. The need to get good to 655 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:05,120 Speaker 1: the pioneers led to the development of transportation, infrastructure, and 656 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:09,360 Speaker 1: the expansion of civilization followed the needs of these pioneers 657 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: who were living on the edge, and thus people living 658 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:15,839 Speaker 1: on the frontier tended to favor these nationalizing policies like 659 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:21,520 Speaker 1: lots of connection via rail and transportation, but also nationalizing 660 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:25,160 Speaker 1: policies like tariffs, because that would help bring the factories 661 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 1: and centers of production to the border instead of allowing 662 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:32,760 Speaker 1: them to be you know, foreign and importing goods. Turner 663 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,279 Speaker 1: also says that the Frontier mitigated against the sectionalism of 664 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,840 Speaker 1: the Civil War era. Now, if you're talking about influences 665 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:44,120 Speaker 1: on American culture, what informs what the American character is today, 666 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:46,680 Speaker 1: A lot of people would probably look to the Civil War, right, 667 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,840 Speaker 1: because we're talking about the schism of of the of 668 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:54,399 Speaker 1: the nation and then the reunion that followed. Yeah, uh yeah. 669 00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,359 Speaker 1: And so that idea of sectionalism, having people who are 670 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,920 Speaker 1: Northern partisans in the southern part of sens As as 671 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,319 Speaker 1: an important part of their national character and identity, that 672 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:08,320 Speaker 1: that sectionalism, he says, is actually mitigated by the Frontier. 673 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,759 Speaker 1: The Frontier helped us get over that um and he 674 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:15,080 Speaker 1: says it's because number one, the Frontier mainly grew from 675 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 1: the middle region of the country, which was between the 676 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:22,160 Speaker 1: Puritan New England and the English aristocratic system of the 677 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:25,759 Speaker 1: Tidewater South, most of the people moving westward were much 678 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,240 Speaker 1: more likely to come from the people in the middle, 679 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:32,920 Speaker 1: like Pennsylvania, New York. That that middle area there and 680 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:36,359 Speaker 1: uh so, he says, the frontier mitigated against sectionalism also 681 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:40,520 Speaker 1: because it created this climate of continuous movement and migration 682 00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,600 Speaker 1: and commerce back and forth. And of course the mobility 683 00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:47,960 Speaker 1: of the population is death to localism. I like this point, which, 684 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,759 Speaker 1: if true, I think is also a good argument for 685 00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:55,400 Speaker 1: the beneficial nature of travel. I know that's a common saying, Robert. 686 00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:56,960 Speaker 1: I don't know how much you buy into that, but 687 00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,719 Speaker 1: I think people often say that the more you get 688 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 1: away from wherever you come from, as much as you're able, 689 00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:05,960 Speaker 1: the more broad minded you tend to be, the less 690 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:09,680 Speaker 1: beholden you are to to your local customs as being 691 00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,000 Speaker 1: the true right way. Yeah. I agree when I look 692 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:15,240 Speaker 1: back in my own life, very early on, my family 693 00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:19,640 Speaker 1: moved to Canada, and we were in Newfoundland, Canada, and 694 00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:22,279 Speaker 1: my my dad was working in this hospital so and 695 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 1: and so. Not only what were we around, um the 696 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:28,720 Speaker 1: local news, but we were also around all these different 697 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:33,640 Speaker 1: international um medical professionals. So there was there was there 698 00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:37,399 Speaker 1: was you know, a Chinese doctor, there was an Indian doctor. There, 699 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:41,440 Speaker 1: all these additional nationalities crammed into this this small environment. 700 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:43,080 Speaker 1: So I often look back on that and think, well, 701 00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:45,640 Speaker 1: that that clearly had an impact on me early on, 702 00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,200 Speaker 1: and then subsequent travels that I that I got to 703 00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,879 Speaker 1: make in life only reinforced that. Robert, I must say, 704 00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:53,719 Speaker 1: if I can pay you a compliment, you you do 705 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:57,480 Speaker 1: not seem like a person very beholden to localism. No, 706 00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:00,480 Speaker 1: I do well. I do like local produce, don't get 707 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,200 Speaker 1: me wrong. And you know, when you I feel like 708 00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:05,800 Speaker 1: there's kind of the You see this a lot with chefs, 709 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,279 Speaker 1: like famous chefs, they all seem to have a similar trajectory, right, 710 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 1: They start off being super interested in in other uh 711 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,799 Speaker 1: like nationalities, cuisines, and then they come back around and 712 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,480 Speaker 1: find the beauty of their their own, like local family history. 713 00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:21,880 Speaker 1: I've never thought about that, but you know what, I 714 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,600 Speaker 1: think you're right. That is a very common story. Is 715 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:27,120 Speaker 1: like the chef tries to get away from where they 716 00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:30,040 Speaker 1: came up. They go to work in the restaurants or 717 00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,640 Speaker 1: culinary school somewhere else. They work in other kinds of restaurants, 718 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:35,600 Speaker 1: different kinds of cuisine, than they grew up with, and 719 00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:37,799 Speaker 1: then they open their own restaurant and it's what they 720 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:41,120 Speaker 1: grew up with. Yeah, So I find myself engaging in 721 00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,279 Speaker 1: some of that too, you know, like I'm fascinated by 722 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:47,359 Speaker 1: other other cultures and other countries and in other ways 723 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:49,280 Speaker 1: of life. But then I often will come back around 724 00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:51,759 Speaker 1: and then in a way, you end up using using 725 00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:55,880 Speaker 1: the tools that you developed to understand other people, and 726 00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,480 Speaker 1: then you turn them inward and you try and understand 727 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,200 Speaker 1: the you know, the other it is yourself. The other 728 00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:03,880 Speaker 1: that is uh, you know, the place you came from, 729 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,879 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb, the secret hardcore Tennessee. And yeah, I mean 730 00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:10,760 Speaker 1: in a sense, yeah, I I certainly came back around 731 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:13,560 Speaker 1: and and and did a lot of thinking about what 732 00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:16,120 Speaker 1: it what it means to grow up in Tennessee, what 733 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:18,359 Speaker 1: it means what it means to be a Tennessee, and well, 734 00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:20,960 Speaker 1: to get back to the idea of sectionalism, one of 735 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,160 Speaker 1: the things that I think is interesting and worth pointing out. 736 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,279 Speaker 1: Of course Turner points it out himself, is that when 737 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,240 Speaker 1: you think about sectionalism being this big influence in American 738 00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:32,400 Speaker 1: culture North versus South, and and the idea of union 739 00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,880 Speaker 1: being a frontier idea Abraham Lincoln was a creature of 740 00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,120 Speaker 1: the frontier. I mean, you think of Abraham Lincoln, the 741 00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:41,960 Speaker 1: log cabin lawyer. Yeah, that's right, Uh, and so very 742 00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:45,600 Speaker 1: much for Turner. That frontier mentality comes through in Lincoln, 743 00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:48,160 Speaker 1: and Lincoln of course being the great Unionist, the great 744 00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:52,319 Speaker 1: unifier of north and South, who who fought sectionalism more 745 00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:55,439 Speaker 1: than anything else. Maybe now we should take a quick break, 746 00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:56,919 Speaker 1: and when we come back, we'll look at a couple 747 00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:00,759 Speaker 1: of the most important of Turner's ideas on influence of 748 00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:07,880 Speaker 1: the frontier on the American culture. All right, we're back now. 749 00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:09,279 Speaker 1: I don't know about you, Joe. When I but when 750 00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,600 Speaker 1: I think of iconic frontiersman, I can't help but look 751 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,640 Speaker 1: back on Tokens, Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit, 752 00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:20,600 Speaker 1: because both of them had a rugged individual frontiersman of 753 00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:23,480 Speaker 1: a sort. Oh, in the Hobbit, there's beyond the character 754 00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:26,000 Speaker 1: that can change into animals, or at least can change 755 00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:29,640 Speaker 1: into a bear, multiple animals, but definitely into a bear. 756 00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:33,200 Speaker 1: And hey, I mean that's a great metaphor for the pioneer. 757 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:36,560 Speaker 1: The frontier mentality is that you're sort of like part animals, 758 00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:38,960 Speaker 1: scraping along in the wild Yeah, and then we had 759 00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:41,799 Speaker 1: Tom bomba Deal and Lord of the Rings. A man, 760 00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:46,160 Speaker 1: it's so individual and so just kind of so independently, 761 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,960 Speaker 1: uh powerful that they even discussed possibly giving him the 762 00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:54,200 Speaker 1: Ring of Power to hold onto until us decided it 763 00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:58,200 Speaker 1: will he'll probably lose it. Tom Bombadale never made it 764 00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:00,359 Speaker 1: into the movies. Yeah, but I would not be prize 765 00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:03,239 Speaker 1: that Peter Jackson has a trilogy plan just for just 766 00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:07,080 Speaker 1: for the bound Adil stuff. Well, yeah, of course individualism, 767 00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:10,120 Speaker 1: and this is one of the core parts of Turner's thesis. 768 00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:14,520 Speaker 1: He says that the Frontier created a very very strong 769 00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:18,640 Speaker 1: sense of individualism in the American character. Uh, that that 770 00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,680 Speaker 1: life is about me. I depend on myself. I might 771 00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:24,839 Speaker 1: only trust myself. And I want to read a long 772 00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:27,279 Speaker 1: quote because I think it's great and it really gets 773 00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:30,359 Speaker 1: to the core of what he's talking about. So this 774 00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:33,560 Speaker 1: is what Turner has to say. As has been indicated, 775 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:38,640 Speaker 1: the Frontier is productive of individualism. Complex society is precipitated 776 00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:42,160 Speaker 1: by the wilderness into a kind of primitive organization based 777 00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:46,920 Speaker 1: on the family. The tendency is anti social. It produces 778 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:51,839 Speaker 1: antipathy to control, and particularly to any direct control. The 779 00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:56,200 Speaker 1: tax gatherer is viewed as a representative of oppression. Professor 780 00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,160 Speaker 1: osgood and an Enable article has pointed out that the 781 00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,640 Speaker 1: frontier condition is prevalent in the colonies, are important factors 782 00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:06,640 Speaker 1: in the explanation of the American Revolution, where individual liberty 783 00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:11,719 Speaker 1: was sometimes confused with absence of all effective government. Like 784 00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:16,120 Speaker 1: that um, the same conditions aid in explaining the difficulty 785 00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:19,640 Speaker 1: of instituting a strong government in the period of the Confederacy. 786 00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:24,840 Speaker 1: The frontier individualism has from the beginning promoted democracy, and 787 00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:28,080 Speaker 1: there he's talking about small d democracy, the idea of 788 00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:33,600 Speaker 1: control of the government being delegated to the individual, very 789 00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:38,160 Speaker 1: much away from any kind of aristocratic idea or influence 790 00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:40,839 Speaker 1: in the government. And he also points out that it 791 00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,799 Speaker 1: was the western frontier regions of states like New York 792 00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:47,560 Speaker 1: and Virginia that pushed the most for extension of suffrage, 793 00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:51,200 Speaker 1: then led to greater democratic participation in those states early on. 794 00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:55,960 Speaker 1: But there's another side to this. He also says that 795 00:46:56,080 --> 00:47:00,440 Speaker 1: the frontier leads to contempt for education and elites. It 796 00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:04,239 Speaker 1: leads to a kind of anti intellectualism, and in one 797 00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:07,240 Speaker 1: piece of evidence he he gives here he's talking about 798 00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:10,759 Speaker 1: the idea of the frontier politician. And he gives a 799 00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:14,319 Speaker 1: statement from a representative in the Virginia Convention debates of 800 00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:18,319 Speaker 1: eighteen thirty and I got to read this quote. The 801 00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:22,279 Speaker 1: Old Dominion has long been celebrated for producing great orators, 802 00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:26,160 Speaker 1: the ablest metaphysicians in policy, men that can split hairs 803 00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:31,120 Speaker 1: in all abstruse questions of political economy. But a Pennsylvania, 804 00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:35,400 Speaker 1: a New York and Ohio, or a Western Virginia statesman, 805 00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:39,560 Speaker 1: though far inferior in logic, metaphysics, and rhetoric to an 806 00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:44,120 Speaker 1: Old Virginia statesman, has this advantage that when he returns home, 807 00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:47,799 Speaker 1: he takes off his coat and takes hold of the plow. 808 00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:51,640 Speaker 1: This gives him bone and muscle, sir, and preserves his 809 00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:57,160 Speaker 1: Republican principles pure and uncontaminated. Yeah. I like this. It 810 00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,800 Speaker 1: reminds me, of course, of of of the cowboy again, 811 00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:03,560 Speaker 1: and that the cowboy is just, you know, the polar 812 00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:06,319 Speaker 1: opposite of of everything you would find, say in New 813 00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,480 Speaker 1: York City, especially when it comes to the creation of 814 00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:13,719 Speaker 1: a proper salsa. Remember from commercials uh. But there there 815 00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:20,920 Speaker 1: is an anti establishment, anti academic, antium, anti urban uh 816 00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:25,360 Speaker 1: sentiment that is just boiled into the idea. Yeah, very 817 00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:28,880 Speaker 1: very much against elites, very much against the idea of education, 818 00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:33,760 Speaker 1: training and experience. Uh. It's related to this idea outside 819 00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:36,399 Speaker 1: of experience that you get of course on the frontier right, 820 00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:40,600 Speaker 1: against the idea of relevant experience. More to the idea 821 00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:44,080 Speaker 1: that what really makes somebody good at anything is being 822 00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:48,440 Speaker 1: authentic in character. And to be authentic in character you 823 00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:51,120 Speaker 1: need to work with your hands and be and be 824 00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:54,840 Speaker 1: independent and sort of be a self made man. This 825 00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:58,480 Speaker 1: I I can't help but think of the propaganda photos 826 00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:02,719 Speaker 1: in Russia of of Ladimir Putin, Like everyone's seen it, 827 00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:06,160 Speaker 1: riding the horse shirtless, right, so you think he's embodying 828 00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:10,160 Speaker 1: the frontier mentality of the United States. Um, I think 829 00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:13,440 Speaker 1: up front more of a universal frontier quality, Like clearly 830 00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:16,960 Speaker 1: he's the images like that, or say, you know him 831 00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:19,319 Speaker 1: wrestling with a bear, and I bring I bring up 832 00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:21,880 Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin. But you see this in politics all over, right, 833 00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:26,080 Speaker 1: a politician going out and uh, rolling their sleeves on 834 00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:28,560 Speaker 1: the sleeves of getting some photographs. Maybe maybe it's something 835 00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:32,040 Speaker 1: more like building a house. Maybe it's hunting, maybe it's fishing. 836 00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:34,160 Speaker 1: Maybe you know, whatever it is, it's sending that that 837 00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:37,440 Speaker 1: idea that yeah, I I learned with my hands. I'm 838 00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:40,600 Speaker 1: good at route at governing because I got out here 839 00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:45,520 Speaker 1: and I got sweaty, right, I know, I'm sawing some lumber. Yeah, 840 00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:49,240 Speaker 1: this is why you should vote for me. Now, this mindset, 841 00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:54,120 Speaker 1: Turner says, has its drawbacks. Turner. Turner is somewhat triumphalist, 842 00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:58,359 Speaker 1: you might say about his idea here. He's somewhat celebrating 843 00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:01,720 Speaker 1: the influence of the frontier, but he also, to his credit, 844 00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:05,120 Speaker 1: does acknowledge some drawbacks, at least as far as he 845 00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:09,000 Speaker 1: sees them. One thing is that he says the individualism 846 00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:13,280 Speaker 1: and the disrespect for government leads to a laxity in government. 847 00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:16,240 Speaker 1: So he says, these people they've got contempt for government. 848 00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:20,080 Speaker 1: But of course they themselves do sometimes become politicians because 849 00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:23,239 Speaker 1: you've got to have representatives from these areas. And when 850 00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:26,160 Speaker 1: they get into government, because they have contempt for government, 851 00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:30,000 Speaker 1: they treat their government offices with contempt and abuse them. 852 00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:32,680 Speaker 1: And he says this has led to corruption and to 853 00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:36,040 Speaker 1: the spoils system, you know, the system of like rewarding 854 00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:39,880 Speaker 1: your friends and contributors and all that with political appointments 855 00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:45,040 Speaker 1: that they might not actually be the best for yes, 856 00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:48,160 Speaker 1: uh so this is and funny enough, this is the 857 00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:52,839 Speaker 1: very spoils system which you might say got President Garfield assassinated. Now, 858 00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:55,560 Speaker 1: when President Garfield was shot, he was shot by an 859 00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:58,480 Speaker 1: unstable man who thought he was owed some kind of 860 00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:02,000 Speaker 1: office in the federal government due to the spoils system, 861 00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:03,960 Speaker 1: and he got this idea in his head and he 862 00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:07,640 Speaker 1: shot President Garfield. Weirdly enough to bring it back to 863 00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:11,360 Speaker 1: the World's Columbian Exposition, the same thing happened in an 864 00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:16,480 Speaker 1: almost identical event to end the Chicago World's Fair, when 865 00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:21,080 Speaker 1: Mayor Carter Harrison of Chicago was assassinated by an unstable 866 00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:24,040 Speaker 1: office seeker who thought that he was owed some kind 867 00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:28,879 Speaker 1: of appointment through the spoil system. Kind of odd coincidence there. 868 00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:32,480 Speaker 1: But also Turner points out that this leads to in 869 00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:35,400 Speaker 1: the Western lands through being uh, the frontier being a 870 00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:39,960 Speaker 1: great source of paper money, agitation and quote wildcat banking. 871 00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:43,880 Speaker 1: Wildcat banking. That's something that we really need a like 872 00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:47,400 Speaker 1: a bobcat or as a sound effect. Every time it 873 00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:53,000 Speaker 1: is it is it is uttered wildcat banking. Now but 874 00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:55,080 Speaker 1: here here it brings us up to the present. Now 875 00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:58,319 Speaker 1: he has combined all these things. He says, it leads to, 876 00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:03,000 Speaker 1: you might a a kind of counterintuitive combination. It leads 877 00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:06,279 Speaker 1: to nationalizing tendencies from a federal government point of view, 878 00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:11,040 Speaker 1: but it also leads to strong individualism, UH contempt for government, 879 00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:15,719 Speaker 1: a a sort of uh contempt for elites and education. 880 00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:19,640 Speaker 1: It leads to a sort of character of violence and militarization, 881 00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:26,000 Speaker 1: a sort of simple, simple, get or done attitude. And 882 00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:28,680 Speaker 1: if this is true, one thing we have to consider 883 00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:32,360 Speaker 1: is that in the eighteen nineties the frontier was officially 884 00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:36,880 Speaker 1: declared gone. The Turner actually starts his essay by saying, 885 00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:39,959 Speaker 1: you know, in the eighteen eighties census, the country still 886 00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:43,520 Speaker 1: did have what might be considered a frontier. But by 887 00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:47,840 Speaker 1: the eighteen nineties census, the the superintendent I believe of 888 00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:50,760 Speaker 1: the census, said, you know what, there is so little 889 00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:54,080 Speaker 1: unsettled land left that it no longer makes any sense 890 00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:57,280 Speaker 1: to designate any section of the United States of frontier. 891 00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:02,080 Speaker 1: So there really isn't a frontier anymore. So to whatever 892 00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:05,239 Speaker 1: extent Turner's thesis is correct, and we can certainly talk 893 00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:08,360 Speaker 1: about some ways in which is probably not correct, But 894 00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:11,400 Speaker 1: to whatever extent it is correct, what happens when the 895 00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:14,680 Speaker 1: frontier is gone it. This reminds me of a quote 896 00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:17,560 Speaker 1: from Kurt Vonnegut in Cat's Cradle. He said, Americans are 897 00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:20,680 Speaker 1: forever searching for love and forms. It never takes in 898 00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:23,200 Speaker 1: places it can never be. It must have something to 899 00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:26,560 Speaker 1: do with the vanished frontier. That's great. Now. I think 900 00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:30,240 Speaker 1: that's invoked with some irony by Vonnegut. I think Vonnegut 901 00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:35,120 Speaker 1: is probably actually referring ironically to this very idea, the 902 00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:38,080 Speaker 1: romanticizing of the frontier and its role in forming the 903 00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:41,640 Speaker 1: American character. And that is something we should definitely acknowledge, 904 00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:44,560 Speaker 1: is that this idea, as influential as it has been 905 00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:49,600 Speaker 1: in American historical thought, there are definitely romantic elements to it, 906 00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:52,440 Speaker 1: and there are there are also some elements that are 907 00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:55,200 Speaker 1: that are not so nice that we should acknowledge now. 908 00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:57,040 Speaker 1: Of course, the theory has had a number of critics 909 00:53:57,120 --> 00:54:00,279 Speaker 1: and supporters over the years, and I think there are 910 00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:03,520 Speaker 1: historical and modern lenses. We can see a few obvious 911 00:54:03,560 --> 00:54:06,400 Speaker 1: flaws in it. One is merely that it was constrained 912 00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:08,680 Speaker 1: by its place and time. Right, He couldn't see into 913 00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:11,560 Speaker 1: the future, He couldn't see how the American character would 914 00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:14,040 Speaker 1: continue to develop over the next century, and a quarter. 915 00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:17,080 Speaker 1: But another, of course, is that this is very much 916 00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:20,600 Speaker 1: a view of the development of the American character as 917 00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:24,280 Speaker 1: it would be expressed by men of European heritage. Basically, 918 00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:30,000 Speaker 1: so women, African Americans, Native Americans, and other groups don't 919 00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:33,239 Speaker 1: seem to play a big role in Turner's view of 920 00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:36,279 Speaker 1: the American character, of what that character is and how 921 00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:39,560 Speaker 1: it's shaped. Yeah, I mean you mentioned earlier the role 922 00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:44,000 Speaker 1: of various immigrant groups in pushing the frontier, and certainly 923 00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:48,600 Speaker 1: um African African Americans as as slaves, and then later 924 00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:52,759 Speaker 1: as as freedman played a huge role. Chinese immigrants played 925 00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:55,600 Speaker 1: a huge role in the expansion of the railroad that 926 00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:58,359 Speaker 1: pushed the frontier total and and and helped you know, 927 00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:01,160 Speaker 1: eradicate it and bring in been bringing the two sides 928 00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:04,640 Speaker 1: of the country together. Um. But these these are players 929 00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:06,640 Speaker 1: that are not going to be a core to the 930 00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:08,960 Speaker 1: argument here in the court of the thesis, right, and 931 00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:12,680 Speaker 1: that and it doesn't in fact mean that he's necessarily 932 00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:16,120 Speaker 1: wrong when he's talking about the sort of the culture 933 00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:19,840 Speaker 1: of the of the white male elite as it ruled 934 00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:22,680 Speaker 1: the country for a long time, But it does mean 935 00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:25,400 Speaker 1: that it's probably not giving you a full picture of 936 00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:28,680 Speaker 1: the people living in the United States of America, what 937 00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:31,799 Speaker 1: their character is, and how it came to be that way. Um. 938 00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:35,040 Speaker 1: Another point that we should just stress again, though I 939 00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:37,880 Speaker 1: think we made this point earlier, but it's just worth reminding. 940 00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:41,319 Speaker 1: He's constantly talking in the essay about the idea of 941 00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:45,640 Speaker 1: free land, that there's free land as you're moving west. Um. 942 00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:48,279 Speaker 1: So it's worth remembering that the land being settled by 943 00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:51,360 Speaker 1: US pioneers on the frontier was not in fact simply 944 00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:54,719 Speaker 1: free land. In most cases, it was already settled or 945 00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:58,200 Speaker 1: occupied by various groups of indigenous peoples, or if people 946 00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:00,279 Speaker 1: weren't living on it, they were at least depending on 947 00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:03,799 Speaker 1: it for resources in some way. Now, on the other hand, 948 00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:06,560 Speaker 1: there could still be ways in which Turner's thesis does 949 00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:10,239 Speaker 1: have some truth to it, even uh, even with these 950 00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:13,680 Speaker 1: very big shortcomings. For example, it could be that the 951 00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:17,400 Speaker 1: traits Turner describes do in fact end up manifesting themselves 952 00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:20,120 Speaker 1: to some degree in Americans of all kinds, men and women, 953 00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:23,040 Speaker 1: people of all different kinds of racial and ethnic heritage. 954 00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:25,320 Speaker 1: And it's not hard to see how this could happen. 955 00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:28,479 Speaker 1: How there there could be certain cultural elements that would 956 00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:32,719 Speaker 1: be diffused throughout the culture. If frontier attitudes can make 957 00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:34,680 Speaker 1: it from the West back to the East, they can 958 00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:38,680 Speaker 1: probably also make it between groups within society. Yeah, I 959 00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:41,640 Speaker 1: think that that holds true. Now, another thing we can 960 00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:44,279 Speaker 1: look at is that he's he's saying that this is 961 00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:48,080 Speaker 1: the most important defining thing in the character of the 962 00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:52,120 Speaker 1: American consciousness, what it's, what makes American democracy what it is. 963 00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:56,359 Speaker 1: Lots of historians could pick different things to fill that role. Now, 964 00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:59,000 Speaker 1: of course, just trying to reduce everything to one explaining 965 00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:02,280 Speaker 1: event is probably going to be highly flawed in itself. 966 00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:05,120 Speaker 1: You know, what about mass immigration. If if you were 967 00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:08,080 Speaker 1: to ask me what defines American character more than anything, 968 00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:12,680 Speaker 1: I'd probably think of I'd probably think of slavery in 969 00:57:12,680 --> 00:57:16,280 Speaker 1: the Civil War. I'd think about the particular nature of 970 00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:20,720 Speaker 1: the U. S. Constitution. I would think about immigration, mass 971 00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:24,920 Speaker 1: immigration throughout the nation's history. But the frontier might also 972 00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:28,200 Speaker 1: be an important thing to list there. Yeah, And I 973 00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:31,800 Speaker 1: mean you even look to things like the national park 974 00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:37,000 Speaker 1: system as kind of a continuation of a of a 975 00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:40,600 Speaker 1: a frontier element. So it's like, clearly the national parks 976 00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:42,800 Speaker 1: are not frontiers. You can't go in there and settle 977 00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:46,320 Speaker 1: parts of national parks, or at least you can't yet, 978 00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:50,680 Speaker 1: but but still they stand. There is as as examples 979 00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:54,240 Speaker 1: of of of the wild that are open to everyone 980 00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:57,440 Speaker 1: to visit and take part in and uh and and 981 00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:00,240 Speaker 1: in some way that kind of scratches the itch of 982 00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:03,680 Speaker 1: the frontier spirit, the idea that well, I on some 983 00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:05,800 Speaker 1: level we all think that we could drop everything, go 984 00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:08,880 Speaker 1: off the grid and move off into the country, often 985 00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:11,680 Speaker 1: to those some imagine frontier and we we probably maybe 986 00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:13,600 Speaker 1: we can to some degree, but we can certainly go 987 00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:17,080 Speaker 1: to a national park or state park and uh and 988 00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:20,320 Speaker 1: spend the weekend camping. Yeah. At the risk of being cheesy, 989 00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:22,680 Speaker 1: I would say one of the greatest things you can 990 00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:24,840 Speaker 1: do if you want to invest in travel within the 991 00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:27,880 Speaker 1: United States is, of course travel to our great cities, 992 00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:30,840 Speaker 1: but also travel to our national parks. Uh. And don't 993 00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:33,200 Speaker 1: just don't just go to Yosemite. Look up the other 994 00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:36,480 Speaker 1: ones there. There are probably some nearer to you that 995 00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:41,120 Speaker 1: are truly amazing national treasures. I hope I'm not cheesing 996 00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:43,720 Speaker 1: you out here, but no, no, no, I agree. There's 997 00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:45,920 Speaker 1: some wonderful national parks out there, and there's some wonderful 998 00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:48,200 Speaker 1: state parks. But I guess here we get to the 999 00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:50,480 Speaker 1: final question, Robert, I wonder what you think. Do you 1000 00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:53,479 Speaker 1: think there's anything to what Turners saying. Do you think 1001 00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:56,840 Speaker 1: that the frontier is this really important influence on what 1002 00:58:57,000 --> 00:58:59,960 Speaker 1: makes the United States what it is on our national character, 1003 00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:03,600 Speaker 1: or or do you think Turner was wrong? Yeah, I 1004 00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:05,200 Speaker 1: think there's something to it. But I also wonder, like 1005 00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:07,240 Speaker 1: how much of that is frontiersm how much of that 1006 00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:10,840 Speaker 1: is just the the immigrant spirit, the idea that whatever 1007 00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:14,200 Speaker 1: I was somewhere else, whatever the limitations on who I 1008 00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:17,080 Speaker 1: could be, but whatever those limitations were, I can come here, 1009 00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:19,960 Speaker 1: and I can I can redefine who I am, and 1010 00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:23,520 Speaker 1: I can I can earn myself a better place. Yeah. Now, 1011 00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:26,240 Speaker 1: I wonder, when I've been thinking about it, if the 1012 00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:30,880 Speaker 1: frontier thesis is not necessarily a good explanation of the 1013 00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:34,240 Speaker 1: American character as a whole, but it is a very 1014 00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:39,760 Speaker 1: good explanation of certain strains of thinking and subcultures within 1015 00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:43,200 Speaker 1: the American culture. Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that. Yeah. 1016 00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:45,120 Speaker 1: So it's kind of comes back to like we've said 1017 00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:47,400 Speaker 1: with this and like we said with the world systems theory, 1018 00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:49,640 Speaker 1: is that any time you try and come up with 1019 00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:52,880 Speaker 1: a definite answer and a definite model for the movements 1020 00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:55,800 Speaker 1: of history. Even if it's just US history, you're going 1021 00:59:55,880 --> 01:00:00,320 Speaker 1: to run into some problems. But broadly speaking or or 1022 01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:04,960 Speaker 1: strategically employed, it does it does seem to have some 1023 01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:07,200 Speaker 1: truth in it. Yeah. What do you think about the 1024 01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:12,600 Speaker 1: idea of new frontiers after the physical land frontier went away? Well, yeah, 1025 01:00:12,640 --> 01:00:15,240 Speaker 1: there's certainly a strong argument to me made for for 1026 01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:19,600 Speaker 1: the digital frontier, for in the same way that we're 1027 01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:22,520 Speaker 1: talking about, like find scratching the itch of frontiersm in 1028 01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:25,440 Speaker 1: national parks. I think at least for a while, you 1029 01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:28,040 Speaker 1: could do that with the digital realm. And I guess 1030 01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:31,200 Speaker 1: you still scientific advancements that is often cited as a 1031 01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:33,840 Speaker 1: as a new frontier. You like, you're forging new ground. 1032 01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:37,240 Speaker 1: And the benefit of the scientific advancement as a frontier 1033 01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:40,800 Speaker 1: is you don't have to literally displace real people right right, 1034 01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:43,800 Speaker 1: And and I think science fiction plays into that area 1035 01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:46,400 Speaker 1: as well, like imaginary frontiers. Yeah, it's kind of the 1036 01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:52,000 Speaker 1: imaginary frontier fed by the scientific frontier. Of course, space 1037 01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:55,200 Speaker 1: is another one people often talk about, the final frontier. 1038 01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:58,880 Speaker 1: One might say that's true until we discover interdimensional travel. Yeah, 1039 01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:01,800 Speaker 1: and certainly when a sign its fiction tries to imagine, uh, 1040 01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:06,720 Speaker 1: interplanetary frontiers. We we draw back on our experience with 1041 01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:10,040 Speaker 1: often the American frontier. And so if it's certainly if 1042 01:01:10,040 --> 01:01:12,840 Speaker 1: it's an American science fiction author. Yeah, if you look 1043 01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:15,520 Speaker 1: at a lot of that mid century science fiction, a 1044 01:01:15,560 --> 01:01:19,919 Speaker 1: lot of times the starship Captain is very colonial or 1045 01:01:20,080 --> 01:01:23,840 Speaker 1: is a cowboy. Yeah, that's true. Kirk was kind of 1046 01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:26,760 Speaker 1: a cowboy, wouldn't it kinda? Yeah? All right, Robert, you 1047 01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:30,000 Speaker 1: got anything else? Let's see, we mentioned Kirk, we mentioned 1048 01:01:30,040 --> 01:01:32,760 Speaker 1: Tom Bomba dell. Uh So, I think we're good. Okay, 1049 01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:36,120 Speaker 1: I think we fully explained it. All right, So hey, 1050 01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:38,440 Speaker 1: if you missed that C two e two episode, go 1051 01:01:38,520 --> 01:01:41,680 Speaker 1: back and listen to it because it ties indirectly with 1052 01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:43,320 Speaker 1: a lot of with the spirit of what we're talking 1053 01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:46,440 Speaker 1: about here. And hey, in the meantime, head on over 1054 01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:48,200 Speaker 1: to Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. That's where 1055 01:01:48,240 --> 01:01:50,520 Speaker 1: you'll find the Mothership. That's where we find all of 1056 01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:54,480 Speaker 1: our podcast episodes. Ever, you'll find blog post videos, links 1057 01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:58,840 Speaker 1: out to our various social media accounts such as Facebook, Twitter, Tumbler, etcetera. 1058 01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:01,920 Speaker 1: And of course you can find a podcasts virtually anywhere 1059 01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:04,000 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts these days, and of course if 1060 01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:05,800 Speaker 1: you want to get in touch this directly, you can 1061 01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:08,200 Speaker 1: email us as always that blow the mind. At how 1062 01:02:08,240 --> 01:02:20,880 Speaker 1: stuff work dot com for more on this and thousands 1063 01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:46,080 Speaker 1: of other topics because at how stuff works dot com