1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:04,840 Speaker 1: My welcome Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of 2 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, are you welcome 3 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:16,080 Speaker 1: to Stuff to Blow your Mind? My name is Robert 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:19,279 Speaker 1: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And here it is the 5 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:26,079 Speaker 1: fifth and final installment in our series on psychedelics. We 6 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: made it to part five, right, Part five. Then we'll 7 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: move on to some other topics and probably come back 8 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: around to other episodes that involve psychedelics in the future, 9 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: because there's just so much research going on, and that's 10 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: ultimately what this episode is about. What what are some 11 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,919 Speaker 1: examples of the stuff that's going on in our century, 12 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 1: in the twenty one century regarding psychedelics, like with the 13 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:49,160 Speaker 1: Friday Thirteenth movies. Part five is a new beginning. Yeah, 14 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: that's right, it's the Psychedelic Research Revival. So yeah, So 15 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: we've been teasing this, I guess throughout the past four 16 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: episodes that at some point we're going to talk about 17 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: research that's taken place on the clinical significant of psychedelics 18 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: in the twenty first century. After some of the veil 19 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: of stigma has lifted from from psychedelic assisted therapy and 20 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: psychedelic for treating various conditions. UM, So to quickly look 21 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: at one important study, I think this would be a 22 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 1: good place to start, from the early days of the 23 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: twenty first century psychedelic renaissance. I just checked and this 24 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: one has been cited seven hundred and eighty nine times 25 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: now according to Google scholar. This is a study from 26 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:32,120 Speaker 1: Roland Griffith's, William Richards, Una Macon and Robert Jesse And 27 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:35,119 Speaker 1: this was published in Psychopharmacology and the year two thousand 28 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: six called Psilocybin can occasion mystical type experiences having substantial 29 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,960 Speaker 1: and sustained personal meaning and spiritual significance. And I think 30 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 1: we'll we will talk more about spiritual significance as we 31 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: go on, maybe later in the episode. But UH, to 32 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: give a brief summary, Basically, psilocybin has been used for 33 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: religious purposes for centuries, but what does it actually do? Uh? 34 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: This research for suit a similar line of inquiry to 35 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: the marsh Chapel experiment from nineteen sixty two, which we 36 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:08,359 Speaker 1: talked about in the third episode of the series. This 37 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 1: was dosing people with psychedelics and then letting them loose 38 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: in to church basically well seminary students, and so they 39 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 1: were there you know, to learn about the divine and 40 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: to become ministers. I guess probably. And they were there 41 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:24,640 Speaker 1: for the Good Friday service in this church, and some 42 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,639 Speaker 1: were given psilocybin and some were given an active placebo. 43 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: I think it was niacin, which causes tingling and flushing 44 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:34,920 Speaker 1: and so. In. In that that experiment, they did find 45 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 1: that the people who had been given the psilocybin for 46 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 1: this religious service reported having largely reported having these very 47 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 1: profound and positive mystical experiences while on psilocybin that they 48 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: believed largely changed their lives for the better. Right, not 49 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 1: just memorable experiences, but life changing experiences and believed subjectively 50 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: to be spiritually significant to religious people, right, not not 51 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: just a situation of where it's like, oh yeah, I 52 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: saw something or or felt something and it kind of 53 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: made me think about some religious concepts. I was already 54 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 1: turning over in my head. You know. It was it 55 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: was it was like an order of magnitude beyond that. Yeah. 56 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: Uh So this study from two thousand and six it 57 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 1: was to study whether psilocybin causes people to have these 58 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 1: same types of experience as mystical or religious experiences that 59 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: they rate as positive and profound when compared to a placebo. 60 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: And this was a double blind study using high doses 61 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:36,119 Speaker 1: of psilocybin and an active placebo control. The active placebo 62 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 1: they used in this case was not niacin. It was 63 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: methyl finitate hydrochloride, which stimulates the central nervous system. It's 64 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 1: a stimulant. And I could be wrong, but I think 65 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: this one also what they definitely injected it, right, I 66 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: think so because you do so. Actually I'm not sure, Okay, 67 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 1: a lot of these a lot of these studies, they 68 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: do end up injecting it just because it's fast acting 69 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: and also sometimes a little stronger, I mean a lot 70 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: stronger too, because it's just hitting me like that as 71 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: opposed to you know, gradually coming up. That's and yeah, 72 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: that does happen in some studies. I did not know 73 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 1: the methodical administration here, but so quote, volunteers completed questionnaires 74 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:16,840 Speaker 1: assessing drug effects and mystical experiences immediately after and two 75 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: months after sessions. And then they also say that community 76 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:24,919 Speaker 1: observers rated changes in the volunteers attitudes and behavior, so 77 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 1: they didn't just ask people their own subjective impressions of 78 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:31,039 Speaker 1: how they've changed. They also asked other people, Hey, how 79 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: has Jeffrey changed? Right, So it's not just Scrooge saying 80 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 1: oh yeah, I'm totally cool with cratch It. Now you're 81 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: like you're actually asking cratch It, Hey, what do you 82 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: think about Scrooge? Just like, oh, yeah, he's totally different now. 83 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: I don't know. He must have he took something Christmas Eve. 84 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:47,480 Speaker 1: Didn't you write something once about how Scrooge was on 85 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 1: d MT? Yeah? Yeah, I and I can't be there. 86 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 1: I'm sure I'm not the only person to make this commentary, 87 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:56,359 Speaker 1: but I feel like, um, a Christmas Carol. The story 88 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 1: of Evanezer Scrooge is like such a psychedelic experience, Like 89 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: really he had. I mean, he has a supernatural experience 90 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: that makes him reassess his life and his life choices 91 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: and ultimately changes his trajectory. And I think it has 92 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 1: a tremendous amount in common with some of the psychedelic 93 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:15,720 Speaker 1: experiences we've been discussing. Yeah, I think I think that's 94 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,359 Speaker 1: about right. It was that bad potato that he ate, right, 95 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: you know what he says. It was like a bit 96 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: of cheese or meat that had gone off. Okay, so 97 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: results of this experiment, the the updates sort of on 98 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: the marsh Chapel model the author's right quote, Psilocybin produced 99 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: a range of acute perceptual changes, subjective experiences, and labile moods, 100 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 1: including anxiety. Psilocybin also increased measures of mystical experience. At 101 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: two months, the volunteers rated the psilocybin experiences having substantial 102 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: personal meaning and spiritual significance and attributed to the experience 103 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 1: sustained positive changes in attitudes and behavior consistent with changes 104 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: rated by community observers. So the authors write that that 105 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,720 Speaker 1: the life change is experienced by people who took psilocybin 106 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:08,840 Speaker 1: in this study are similar to the changes reported by 107 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:13,799 Speaker 1: people who have spontaneous mystical experiences without drugs that change 108 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 1: their lives. Quote. The ability to occasion such experiences perspectively 109 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 1: will allow rigorous scientific investigations of their causes and consequences. 110 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: And this kind of comes back to William James territory here, right, 111 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 1: because this is not just a study about psilocybin. It's 112 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:34,160 Speaker 1: not just well, what can psilocybin do? It sort of 113 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:38,159 Speaker 1: opens a doorway of generally studying the religious brain to 114 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: studying what's happening in our brains when we have a 115 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 1: self described mystical experience, and how do these experiences work 116 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 1: to change behavior? As they often do? But again, this 117 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 1: is a different sort of experiment than a lot of 118 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,359 Speaker 1: the other stuff we've been hinting at, because it's the 119 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:59,279 Speaker 1: kind of subjective positive experience we've heard reported anecdotally so 120 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,840 Speaker 1: many times for people have an encounter with something something 121 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 1: profound and ineffable, that is a is a meaningful emotional 122 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: experience for them causes them to reflect on their life 123 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: in ways that might change their behavior in their habits. Um. 124 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: But what about the more clinical, more clinically significant uses 125 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 1: like modern research using psychedelics to treat psychiatric disorders, addiction, 126 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 1: and other issues. Yeah, and and this is where we're 127 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 1: seeing just a lot of tremendous research taking place. Yeah. Uh, 128 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 1: and um, we're still i think, on the on the 129 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: cusp of it, like we're still in the early days, 130 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 1: but exactly. Yeah, but but we Yeah, we are seeing 131 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: a lot of progress and a lot of promising, uh, 132 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: promising results. One of the key figures in the modern 133 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: research of psychedelic addiction research is a man by the 134 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 1: name of Dr Stephen Ross of the n Y u 135 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: psilocybin cancer anxiety study. We We mentioned him in a 136 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: previous episode already, Paul and Michael Paulan discusses his work 137 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: at length in his book. And as I mentioned already, 138 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: he was one of the panelists at the two thousand 139 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: nineteen World Science Festival, which I was in attendance for. 140 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: Uh and uh This talk, by the way from the 141 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: World Science Festival should be available online at some point 142 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: um in the months ahead. I'm not sure when, but 143 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: when it goes up, I'll make sure I share it 144 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 1: on our social so people can view it. Because it 145 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: was a great talk cover some of what we're talking 146 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: about here and have been talking about that gets into 147 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: other areas as well. UM so uh. Dr Stephen Ross 148 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: discussed how psychedelics were not a part of his training 149 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 1: in psychiatry and the study of addiction. Um and and 150 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: like when you when you see pictures of him and 151 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: you see him in person, um, you know he he 152 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: doesn't fit. You don't look at him and say like, oh, 153 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: there's a psilocybin research tree. If he doesn't look like 154 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: Willie Nelson's right, he doesn't look like Terence McKenna or 155 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: Timothy Learry. He looks just like a like just an 156 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 1: everyday human being. Um. And if you're said, if you're 157 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: told that that he's a you know, a professional or 158 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: an academic, you know, you wouldn't instantly think psilocybin. But anyway, 159 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 1: he discuss discussed, you know, this wasn't part of his training, 160 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: despite the fact the psychedelics were such a huge part 161 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: of psychology for a while. And uh, he says that 162 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: all the research findings from the fifties and sixties were 163 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: still out there, quote hiding in plain sight. And and 164 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: when he you know, he looked closer, he saw, you know, 165 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 1: you had this high success rate. Um using you know, 166 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:23,599 Speaker 1: mainly it was like LSD with alcohol addiction is the 167 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 1: one that I think really caught his his attention. But 168 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 1: but yeah, we had these we had these really promising 169 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: results from the original period of modern psychedelic research. And 170 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:37,680 Speaker 1: so he thought, well, let's let's try it again. Let's 171 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: see what else we can learn. How can we we 172 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: actually move on from what they had learned decades ago. Uh. 173 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 1: The only problem is that, there were, of course huge 174 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: administrative hurdles to studying it. But he was able to 175 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: push through with an initial focus on terminal cancer patient 176 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: studies alleviating end of life anxiety via psilocybin. Yeah, and 177 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:01,680 Speaker 1: this is a big important early thing, I think, also 178 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: from the mid two thousands. Yeah. His initial work though, 179 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: actually took place at the n y U Dental School 180 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: because Bellevue and the n y U Cancer Center wanted 181 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 1: to just stay to stay clear of it because it was, 182 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 1: you know, still it was early days getting back into 183 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: and igniting what would become this renaissance of research. So 184 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 1: there was still even in the scientific and medical community, 185 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 1: something of a stigma around psychedelics, even for clinical uses. Yeah, 186 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: I mean even you know, even today, like in the 187 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 1: culture at large, I feel like there's still you still 188 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 1: have to push through that, right, Um, Like you still 189 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 1: have to, you know, get to the point where you're 190 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: not using the phrase magic mushrooms in the science headline, 191 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: right uh. And we're not there yet. I mean, it's 192 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 1: still the popular press reporting about it. It plays up 193 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: the kind of you know, hey, or you having depression symptoms, 194 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: maybe you should try dropping acid, a new study says, 195 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 1: And and it's understandable that would be the reaction for 196 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: so many of us, because again we're coming on the 197 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: heels of of the moral panic and so many of these, uh, 198 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: these ideas about what LSD and psilocybin are. But that's 199 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 1: another attitude actually that we were just hinting at. That's 200 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: not even it's not even the same as the moral 201 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 1: panic that looks at psychedelics as this sort of culture 202 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: destroying threat, you know, that's going to turn your children 203 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 1: into acts murderers. It's more the kind of the trivialization 204 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: of the psychedelic experience that looks at it not necessarily 205 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 1: as this horrible threatening thing, but as this like ho 206 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 1: ho ho, you know, oh, here's the stoner coming to 207 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: take the psychedelics. Yeah, Which it's kind of twofold, right. 208 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,479 Speaker 1: On one hand, like maybe that's a necessary part of 209 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 1: of its transformation and and maybe that's one way it 210 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 1: survives through the through the decades of darkness there. But 211 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 1: on the other hand, it does it hurts the potential 212 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 1: of it, right because it creates a idea that it 213 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: is purely recreational, that is pure hallucination and fireworks and 214 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: just and there's nothing of value there, certainly not not 215 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: medically valuable, right, or I mean even within the recreational use. 216 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 1: What a lot of these enthusiasts have been emphasizing is 217 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: like spiritual significance, ability to change habits and and have 218 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:26,319 Speaker 1: profound emotional experiences, not like the frivolous, trivial party drug 219 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: kind of approach. So Rossa's studies ended up using psilocybin 220 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: rather than LSD. LSD had been the primary substance in 221 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 1: previous trials, but psilocybin made more sense for a number 222 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 1: of reasons. So it's it's less stigmatized, has less political 223 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 1: badge baggage, it's easier to obtain, it's gentler, and it 224 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:47,719 Speaker 1: also doesn't last longer than a researcher's work day. I 225 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 1: think that's that's something that's worth driving home and a 226 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 1: lot of this, you know, the LSD trip just takes 227 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: up so much more time and people need to get 228 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: home right. A number of studies, though, have have looked 229 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: at this, have examined uh end of life anxiety and 230 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 1: cancer depression and to what extent psilocybin could alleviate this condition, 231 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: and there there have been some we've been seeing some 232 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:13,080 Speaker 1: rapid success. Yeah, you can imagine why this is fruitful, 233 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: just given people subjective experiences what they report about high 234 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: doses of psilocybin and LSD trips. A common thing is 235 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 1: reduced fear of death afterwards, the like. Again, this is 236 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 1: just anecdotal, but the thing people often say is like 237 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 1: I went through ego dissolution. You know, I I went 238 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: to this place where I was having experience, but there 239 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 1: was no me anymore, there was no self. And people 240 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: often talk of this in terms of some analogy of death, 241 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: you know, it's like ego death or something like, I 242 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 1: felt what it would be like to die or to 243 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: to have me not exist anymore, and I didn't mind. 244 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: It didn't feel bad in a way. It actually felt 245 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 1: peaceful and good. I mean, obviously, it also sounds I'm 246 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,079 Speaker 1: sure counterintuitive to a lot of people, because yeah, you 247 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 1: might you might think, well, I'm if I'm on my deathbed, 248 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,440 Speaker 1: or I'm you know, I'm facing a terminal illness or whatever. 249 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 1: The you know, particular situation is like this sounds like 250 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 1: a horrible time to take a mind altering drug. But 251 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 1: I think, you know, based on what we've been discussing 252 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: on the show, I think there's strong evidence for the 253 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 1: counter argument, like, no, this is the time to take 254 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: a mind altering job, especially because it seems like it 255 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 1: might have this ability to reduce death anxiety, to reduce 256 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: the sensation that the fact that you will die is 257 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: a horrible thing. Right, So effectiveness with psilocybin in these 258 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 1: situations it's something like with the placebo at like and 259 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 1: again we're not just talking about psilocybin itself, but rather, 260 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: you know, the result of a lot of set and 261 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: setting um priming the individual for the experience, having the 262 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: experience of the mind alterning experience, you know, guiding them 263 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: through it, helping them then to consolidate it all on 264 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 1: the other side. And again it's not the substance itself, 265 00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: but the state of mind that the substance creates that 266 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 1: see is to be useful for psychiatric improvement, the experience, 267 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 1: not just the compound acting within the body. Right, It's 268 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: not take two of these and call me in the morning. 269 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 1: It's take two of these. Um, let me tell you 270 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 1: what's gonna happen. I'm gonna be there while it happens, 271 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 1: and then we're gonna spend time unpacking it afterwards. Now 272 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: it also gets into the research also gets into other 273 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: areas though, so it gets into just treat looking at 274 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: possible treatments for depression, and Ross says that the work 275 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: is promising there, but thus far the work hasn't been 276 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: too broad. On the addiction front, researchers are making headway 277 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: to treat addiction issues with not only alcohol but also tobacco, opiates, crack, cocaine, 278 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: and other substances. But in all of this, Ross stresses 279 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: that is often the case in any of these studies, 280 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: more research is required. Uh, you know. Even he admits 281 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: that in some cases the findings are almost too good 282 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: to be true. We just have to we have to 283 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: keep going, like you know, there's no point where you're 284 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 1: just like, all right, that's it. Psychedelics are are good 285 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 1: across the board. Let's just let's just you know, prescribe 286 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: them in every instance. Well, I mean, I do think 287 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 1: that there are there. We're tending toward a future where 288 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: we're gonna have more confidence in the results than we 289 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: have now. There are a lot of promising basically pilot studies. 290 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: In fact, I think maybe it would be good to 291 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: just talk through a few examples of recent studies. But 292 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: maybe we should do that after we come back from 293 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: a break. Thank alright, we're back, alright, So I thought 294 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 1: it would be good to just look at a few 295 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: examples of what these pilot studies on psychedelic clinical use 296 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: of psychedelics in recent years has been. And a good 297 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 1: place to turn here is a pretty recent meta analysis 298 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 1: of clinical research on psychedelics by Albert Garcia, Remew Brennan, 299 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 1: Carisguard and Peter Addie. Uh This was in Experimental and 300 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 1: Clinical Psychopharmacology in twenty sixteen called Clinical Applications of Hallucinogens. 301 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: And so this is like a meta review of all 302 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: the existing research out there right now. And they've got 303 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 1: a great just table in this paper that summarizes findings 304 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,159 Speaker 1: from a bunch of existing clinical research up to the 305 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,439 Speaker 1: year sixteen. And so I thought we could just go 306 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 1: through here and cite some examples from the categories of 307 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: treatment you were talking about a little while ago. And 308 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 1: so one thing is a couple of studies that looked 309 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: at the treatment of alcoholism. One is Bogan shoots at 310 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:27,360 Speaker 1: all from and this tested psilocybin enhanced therapy therapy sessions. Specifically, 311 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:29,439 Speaker 1: it was a type of therapy I had not heard of, 312 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:33,360 Speaker 1: I think, called motivational enhancement therapy. Robert, are you familiar 313 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: with the uh NO? I don't believe. Yeah, but it's 314 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 1: some kind of therapy. Uh. And so like many of 315 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:41,680 Speaker 1: the other studies, this is not just looking at taking 316 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 1: a drug in isolation, but taking the psychedelic in concert 317 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 1: with some kind of therapy or or session with a 318 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: counselor or therapist. I believe Michael Pollen pointed out there 319 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: they tend to be a par of therapists. You tend 320 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 1: to have like a male a therapist and a female therapist. Yeah. Yeah, 321 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 1: in most of these studies. Yeah. Interesting. Um, so this 322 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:06,400 Speaker 1: is uh, this was to treat alcohol dependence in this study, 323 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,719 Speaker 1: and they found quote, significant reduction in self reported drinking 324 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 1: days and heavy drinking days for thirty two weeks after 325 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: psilocybin administration compared to baseline. Another study by Krebs and 326 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: Johansson in was a meta analysis of previous research on 327 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: LSD assisted therapy or counseling, and it found across a 328 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 1: total sample size of more than five hundred participants that 329 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 1: a single dose of LSD, which was two d to 330 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: eight hundred micrograms paired with alcoholism treatment found uh quote 331 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:44,719 Speaker 1: that that therapy produced significantly reduced reports of alcohol misuse. 332 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:48,120 Speaker 1: That follow up compared to a control group receiving treatments 333 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:52,120 Speaker 1: without the psychedelics. So so it really there are several 334 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: studies now showing that it really does seem to be 335 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: working with alcoholics. There are also a number of studies, 336 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,719 Speaker 1: as you mentioned, about depression. For example, car Harris at 337 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 1: all In tested psilocybin quote in a supportive setting on 338 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 1: patients with treatment resistant unipolar major depression, and it found 339 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: significant reductions and self reported depressive symptoms from one week 340 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 1: to three months after treatment. According to one scoring method 341 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 1: for depression symptoms, eight of twelve participants showed complete remission 342 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 1: of depression symptoms after one week and five of twelve 343 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: showed complete remission after three months. And these results are 344 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: twenty milligrams of psilocybin um. So I think that's interesting 345 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: because one thing it shows there is something that I 346 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 1: think has showed up in a few other studies, is 347 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:43,239 Speaker 1: that again, while these compounds appear very promising, they're not 348 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 1: a cure all and they don't appear to last forever. 349 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 1: It appears like they do have an effect, Uh, the 350 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 1: effect seems to be very positive, but the effect fades 351 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 1: over time, and this might be a thing where some 352 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: applications of psychedelics and the clinical setting, maybe something that 353 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:00,880 Speaker 1: is a like a type of arapy that you would 354 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,439 Speaker 1: repeat at intervals over time, the same way that you 355 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:07,200 Speaker 1: would repeatedly visit a therapist for psychotherapy sessions, right or 356 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:09,400 Speaker 1: certainly the same way that in a lot of these 357 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:14,199 Speaker 1: traditional science societies one would, um would continually go to 358 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 1: the shaman or would partake of psychedelic substance as a 359 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:22,679 Speaker 1: part of a regularly occurring religious observance. Another study on 360 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 1: depression was Osorio at all Infen. They tested ayahuasca for 361 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 1: recurrent major depressive disorder UH. This, like some of the others, 362 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: was open labels so not placebo controlled as test group 363 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:37,639 Speaker 1: of six so like many of these small groups, but 364 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: found significant reductions in reports of depressive symptoms after one, 365 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:46,399 Speaker 1: seven and twenty one days. Um and and Michael Pollen 366 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: has an interesting section in his book How to Change 367 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 1: Your Mind about Treating Depression with Psychedelics, in which he 368 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: talks to the psychologist Rosalind Watts, who she she so 369 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 1: she talks about these master themes discovered in studies about 370 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 1: what's going on with depression. And I just wanted to 371 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 1: read a couple of sections from Pollen's book that I 372 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 1: thought were interesting concerning these these master themes. Quote the 373 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 1: first was that volunteers depicted their depression foremost as a 374 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: state of disconnection, whether from other people, from their earlier selves, 375 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:25,400 Speaker 1: their senses and feelings, their core beliefs and spiritual values, 376 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 1: or nature. Several referred to living in a mental prison, 377 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: others to being stuck in endless circles of rumination they 378 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:37,120 Speaker 1: likened to mental gridlock. I was reminded of Carhart Harris's 379 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: hypothesis that depression might be a result of an overactive 380 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:44,159 Speaker 1: default mode network, the site in the brain where rumination 381 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: appears to take place. And so, of course you know 382 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 1: what might be going on there is that we we've 383 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:53,400 Speaker 1: talked about psychedelics as having at least metaphorically being these 384 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 1: boundary dissolvers that they, you know, seem a kind of 385 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:03,159 Speaker 1: ultimate remedy for symptoms related to disconnection. That they encourage 386 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 1: the sensation of being connected to other and all things, 387 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: and to other people and to the environment and all 388 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 1: these things that people feel disconnected or cut off from. UH. 389 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,880 Speaker 1: And then going to the second master theme that Rosalind 390 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 1: Watts explains to Pollen. Quote the second master theme was 391 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 1: a new access to difficult emotions, emotions that depression often 392 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: blunts or closes down completely. What hypothesizes that the depressed 393 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 1: patient's incessant rumination constricts his or her emotional repertoire in 394 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: in other cases, the depressive keeps emotions at bay because 395 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: it's too painful to experience them. Uh So, like often 396 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 1: I think a lay person's understanding of depression might be, 397 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 1: uh like that you feel intense sadness, you know, like 398 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 1: this this really intense single emotion, which is not exactly 399 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: what depression seems to be. Like, I mean, I always 400 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: come back to, um, was it was it C. S. 401 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 1: Lewis that referred to depression as the black dog, like 402 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 1: this this kind of thing that would come and like 403 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,679 Speaker 1: just weigh him down. Um, you know, I always come 404 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:14,679 Speaker 1: back to those kind of descriptions. Do those feel more 405 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 1: accurate when when you're experiencing depression or when you're encountering 406 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 1: some of the depression it's not just like uncontrolled weeping, 407 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,399 Speaker 1: you know it is it is more in line with 408 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:28,360 Speaker 1: this disconnection we're talking about, this feeling of being trapped 409 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,680 Speaker 1: within something or within yourself. In some ways, I think 410 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: it can be thought of as a sort of like 411 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:36,920 Speaker 1: a hyperd motivated state, yea where it can just be 412 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 1: difficult to do anything or to feel anything. And I 413 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: guess hopefully, hopefully more people were aware of that. Now. 414 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 1: I feel like the messaging about what depression is is 415 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: is better today than it was like when when when 416 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 1: I was you know, a kid, or when I was 417 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: in high school. You know, yeah, I don't think we 418 00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 1: had a good idea of it. I think you had 419 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 1: like occasional to be like a newsweek article about it, 420 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: but it wasn't really something that was particularly discussed in school. 421 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,120 Speaker 1: As I recall, Yeah, that does seem like something that's 422 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: very important, like helping people understand what depression is, and 423 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 1: like being able to recognize the symptoms so that it 424 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 1: can be diagnosed, rather than you know, people just thinking 425 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: like what's wrong with me? Now. Come back to a 426 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:27,440 Speaker 1: couple of other areas mentioned in this meta analysis of 427 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 1: of recent research on the clinical use of psychedelics. One 428 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:36,199 Speaker 1: is studying obsessive compulsive disorder, so moreno at All in 429 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: sixteen did a double blind experiment with psilocybin to treat 430 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: obsessive compulsive disorder, and they found quote marked reductions on 431 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: the Yale Brown Obsessive Compulsive Scale, which is a scoring 432 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 1: scale for for those symptoms for all participants during one 433 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 1: or more psilocybin sessions, and these effects lasted for at 434 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: least twenty four hours, though they're not sure how long 435 00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,879 Speaker 1: after that. Obviously, I think it would be less use 436 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: full in a clinical setting, for if it only treated 437 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 1: something while you were on the drug. Right, it's more 438 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 1: important to look at like these kinds of lasting changes 439 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:12,359 Speaker 1: that come about from an experience, but we don't know 440 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: how long the changes might be operant on obsessive compulsive here. Uh. 441 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 1: And then another thing is tobacco dependence. I guess that 442 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,400 Speaker 1: goes into similar category to alcohol dependence. But Johnson at 443 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:27,680 Speaker 1: all in tested psilocybin paired with cognitive behavioral therapy or CBT, 444 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: and they found quote biologically verified smoking abstinence in eight 445 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,400 Speaker 1: percent of volunteers at a six month follow up, as 446 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,640 Speaker 1: assessed by exhaled breath, carbon monoxide and you'urine cottoning levels. 447 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: I'm not sure what cotening is. It's probably some downstream 448 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,919 Speaker 1: thing of nicotine. But the authors here also listed a 449 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,400 Speaker 1: couple more studies showing that both psilocybin and LSD assisted 450 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,879 Speaker 1: psychotherapy were linked with decreased anxiety and depression symptoms and 451 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:58,160 Speaker 1: people who were facing life threatening illnesses and cancer. But 452 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 1: we we should, I think, acknowledge, as we've mentioned several times, 453 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,160 Speaker 1: that we're still in the early stages of the psychedelic 454 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,680 Speaker 1: research renaissance because a lot of these studies have small samples. 455 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: A lot of them are small samples, a lot of 456 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 1: them are like open labels, so they're not placebo controlled, 457 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: people know what they're getting, uh, and you know, they're 458 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 1: not necessarily randomized controlled and all that. So I think 459 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,359 Speaker 1: the future looks bright. But as you were saying a 460 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 1: little while ago, to invoke this much hated scientific cliche, 461 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 1: much much more research is needed, and specifically it's more 462 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: rigorous and larger, more statistically powerful research is needed. I 463 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,639 Speaker 1: can only imagine too, that rescheduling these substances would also 464 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 1: help broaden some of these studies hugely. Yeah, I mean 465 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: it's you're talking about small study sizes, but with a 466 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 1: schedule one narcotic that has that has had, you know, 467 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,640 Speaker 1: a lot of taboos associated with it, even for clinical 468 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,680 Speaker 1: and research purposes. Yeah, exactly, And so to some up 469 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: I think where where we stand. I want to quote 470 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,400 Speaker 1: from the discussion section of that that meta meta assis 471 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:05,640 Speaker 1: by Garcia remu at all quote. The psychedelics including LSD, psilocybin, 472 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,160 Speaker 1: mescal and d m T, and the d MT containing 473 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: admixture ayahuasca, have shown promise in treating a range of 474 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: psychological disorders for which currently available treatments are often insufficient, 475 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: such as mood, substance use, and anxiety disorders. These studies 476 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: have mostly been conducted in small, relatively homogeneous samples, limiting 477 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:30,439 Speaker 1: the generalizability of their findings. However, safety and feasibility of 478 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 1: psychedelic facilitated treatment models have been established by these initial studies, 479 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: paving the way for further investigation in larger, more diverse 480 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 1: samples using randomized controlled designs. So essentially, these small studies 481 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,399 Speaker 1: up front have been very important in establishing protocols, UH 482 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 1: demonstrating legitimacy and safety of these methods of research. And 483 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 1: we're sort of on the way now to look and 484 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 1: see what the results are once we try this with 485 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: lots more people, in more settings and and more rigorous methods. Alright, Well, 486 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: on that note, we're going to take another break, and 487 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: when we come back. We're gonna get more into the 488 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 1: you know, some of the possible future scenarios for psychedelic use, 489 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 1: and we're gonna we're gonna kind of take this in 490 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 1: both the grand direction in a very mundane direction. We're 491 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,639 Speaker 1: gonna look at uh, psychedelics as a as a radio 492 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,439 Speaker 1: for speaking to God, and also we're gonna look at 493 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: micro dosing. Okay, thank you, Alright, we're back. So we've 494 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 1: talked a little bit about about the religious experience and 495 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 1: psychedelics already. Sure, the March Chapel experiments of nine two 496 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 1: with psilocybin on on seminary students and in a good 497 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 1: Friday service, and then the follow up study, the two 498 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 1: thousand and six study by Griffith's at All It looked 499 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: at mystical or religious experiences people had on psilocybin and 500 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: found that people did view these as profound, significant experiences 501 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: and that they were positive. Yeah, and we see all 502 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 1: these different examples of of this kind of thinking, this 503 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 1: kind of interpretation of of psychedelic experiences that people have had. 504 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 1: You know, Terence McKenna, who we talked about in some 505 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: of the earlier episodes, certainly he got into some of 506 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 1: these more elaborate ideas of saying, like the machine elves, 507 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: but I mean in food of the Gods. He discusses this, 508 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: this idea of that the possibility of the holy other, 509 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 1: and we see that in other people's writings as well. 510 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: Huxley wrote of the mind at large. Uh. And then 511 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: we even have these various uh, you know, other religious 512 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 1: encounters to consider things that are maybe seemingly like a 513 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: little less grandiose in terms of just you know, how 514 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 1: the writers using them. Uh. One of these examples being 515 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 1: a cancer patient Dina Baser, who describes feeling quote bathed 516 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,719 Speaker 1: in God's love during her experience as part of a 517 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:00,239 Speaker 1: two thousand, ten n y U cancer anxiety study. By 518 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 1: the way, she also made an appearance of that World 519 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 1: Science Festival talk she was in the audience. This is 520 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 1: a really interesting point because actually Paullen interviews Beser for 521 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: his book and How to Change Your Mind and mentions 522 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: this experience interestingly, at least to me. He points out 523 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 1: that despite her belief that she was bathed in God's love, 524 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 1: that's a quote. Bezer does not believe that God exists, 525 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 1: so to quote from pollen quote during the climax of 526 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 1: a journey that extinguished her fear of death. Beser described 527 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 1: being bathed in God's love, and yet she emerged with 528 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 1: her atheism intact, and he wonders how it's possible like 529 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 1: to hold these contradictory ideas at the same time. Eventually, 530 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: he writes, quote, not only was the flood of love 531 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 1: she experienced ineffably powerful, but it was unattributable to any 532 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: individual or worldly cause, and so was purely gratuitous a 533 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 1: form of grace. So how to convey the magnitude of 534 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 1: such a gift? God might be the only word in 535 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: the language big enough. And I think that's really interesting. 536 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 1: It's like we don't have the language to describe these 537 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 1: experiences without keying on other signs pointing to the unsayable 538 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 1: and the indescribable, and religious words are the words that 539 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: seem to fit that best and fall most within reach, 540 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 1: even if we don't. I mean, some people do mean 541 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 1: them exactly in their traditional sense, but a lot of 542 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: people on psychedelics use these words without meaning them in 543 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:30,080 Speaker 1: their traditional sense, but still because they're the only word 544 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: they can find to suggest what they felt. Yeah, now, 545 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: and now they had just to critique Paul and a 546 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 1: little bit. I mean, I would argue that, uh, most 547 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 1: of us have uh contradictory ideas in our head. You know, 548 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 1: I think there are a lot of us that both 549 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: believe and don't believe in a god or some sort 550 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 1: of spiritual model. So we probably have multiple spiritual models 551 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: regarding some you know, vague aspect of the metaphysical realm 552 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: floating around our head right alongside like a a very 553 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 1: like stern scientific interpretation as well. But but that's that's 554 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 1: kind of beside the point. But uh, but but I 555 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 1: do think that I do think his interpretation is really 556 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 1: interesting here, and I think that the baser is a 557 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 1: story is his interesting. You know, we we often encounter 558 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 1: this idea of glimpsing God, or if not a God 559 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 1: or a deity or a goddess or something, glimpsing what 560 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 1: is often referred to as the ultimate reality um which 561 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 1: which of course this gets into. You know, this is 562 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 1: not new to the psychedelic realm. Like this is something 563 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 1: as a as a very old consideration in Hinduism as well, 564 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 1: the idea of like seeing through the veil of illusion 565 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 1: and like seeing the world as it really is, and 566 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 1: so one doesn't have to take a psychedelic in order 567 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 1: to have this experience, but it certainly seems to be 568 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 1: one of the pathways to to to having it. UH 569 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: So we there's actually another Roland Griffith's study that comes 570 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 1: out comes up and this is what this one is 571 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 1: actually is from this year from nineteen. This is from JOHNS. 572 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 1: Hopkins and it was published in PLS one, and it 573 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:10,720 Speaker 1: looked at data from four thousand, two hundred and eighty 574 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 1: five people worldwide who responded to online advertisements to complete 575 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 1: one of two fifty minute online surveys about God encounter experiences. 576 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 1: And it particularly asked about encounters with the Ultimate Reality 577 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 1: or God or divine beings you know, like angels, etcetera, 578 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: that sort of thing of those. Uh. Four thousand, two 579 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 1: hundred eighty five individuals. One thousand, one hundred and eighty 580 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 1: four attributed their experiences to psilocybin um. One thousand, two 581 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 1: hundred fifty one said they took LSD, four hundred thirty 582 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 1: five UH said they took ayahuasca, six hundred and six 583 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 1: said they took D m T. In total, three thousand, 584 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 1: four hundred seventy six individuals responded to the psychedelic survey 585 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: uh part of the study, and then eight hundred nine 586 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 1: responded to the non drugs say, uh, it's you know, 587 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 1: zeroing in on people who are uh claiming to have 588 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 1: had some sort of divine experience encounter without the aid 589 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 1: of a of a psychedelic But it is interesting to 590 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 1: look at the numbers the way they fall out here 591 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:17,040 Speaker 1: because in both studies, seventy of people said it was 592 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 1: among the most meaningful events of their lives, which I 593 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 1: guess shouldn't be that surprising. If you encounter something that 594 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 1: you perceive as being the ultimate reality or a God 595 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 1: or an angel or what have you, like, it better 596 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,399 Speaker 1: be memorable, right, Yeah, I met God, but it wasn't 597 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 1: a big deal. Yeah, you don't want to be like, 598 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,320 Speaker 1: oh yeah I met God. I don't know why that 599 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:40,840 Speaker 1: didn't come up before. Oh yeah I saw an angel? Yeah, um, 600 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,799 Speaker 1: and then frank, god was kind of boring. But then 601 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,840 Speaker 1: they're also these differing factors to like. So seventy percent 602 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:49,719 Speaker 1: said that there was communication involved, So not only do 603 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: they behold the divine or behold the objective reality, they 604 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,120 Speaker 1: also had some sort of communication with it. Seventy five 605 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 1: reported there being this this air of benevolence to it, 606 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 1: reported a sense of intelligence, uh, se reported sacredness, and 607 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:13,839 Speaker 1: seventy described an eternal nature to it. So it was 608 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,799 Speaker 1: you know that this is something that has always been 609 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: and always will be. Now, obviously these are just these 610 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:23,720 Speaker 1: are subjectively applied labels. It's the sense to which people 611 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,399 Speaker 1: thought these words applied to their experience. But we still 612 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:30,239 Speaker 1: learned something from asking people these kind of questions. Yeah, uh, 613 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 1: to keep going here. Seventy reported a decreased fear of 614 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:37,440 Speaker 1: death in the psychedelic group, fifty seven percent in the 615 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:41,319 Speaker 1: non drug group. Interesting, in both groups, fifteen percent said 616 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 1: that it was the most psychologically challenging experience of their life. 617 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 1: Of the psychedelic group described it as the ultimate reality, 618 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,719 Speaker 1: fifty nine percent of the non drug group described an 619 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 1: encounter with a god or an angelic beings. So I 620 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,920 Speaker 1: think that's interesting. I'll come back to that. The people 621 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,480 Speaker 1: that had asy cadelic experience, they tended to they were 622 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 1: more likely to describe it as just a like they 623 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:07,719 Speaker 1: saw through the veil, They saw the universe or the 624 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 1: world as it really is, whereas the non drug group 625 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 1: were more inclined to encounter a being. Now, Griffith says 626 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 1: that there's a lot more to explore here. You know, 627 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:24,800 Speaker 1: he's he's not drawing any ultimate conclusions from any of this, uh, 628 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 1: but you know, some of the things to tease out 629 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,720 Speaker 1: might be, like, you know, what factors may pre predispose 630 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 1: one to have these interpretations like um, Like I wonder, 631 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 1: for example, if the tendency UH to interpret it as 632 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:43,120 Speaker 1: the ultimate reality over a God, goddess, angel encounter in 633 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 1: the psychedelic experience has more to do with the religious 634 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,840 Speaker 1: ideals of the individual, you know, like here's somebody that 635 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,800 Speaker 1: they took LST or took psilocybin, so maybe they weren't 636 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,480 Speaker 1: like super religious, or it has something to do maybe 637 00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: with the you know, the dissolution of boundaries uh in 638 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,719 Speaker 1: the you know, the pressing down of the ego, the 639 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 1: the the turning off of the default mode network for 640 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 1: a little bit. So maybe you're you're less inclined for 641 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:13,840 Speaker 1: this experience to be boiled into this egoic entity and 642 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:17,880 Speaker 1: you're more likely to have this broader, dissolved experience. But 643 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:19,920 Speaker 1: then at the same time, I mean, you know, McKenna 644 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 1: and others have talked about encountering and other while you know, 645 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,279 Speaker 1: having a you know, a rather intense trip. So and 646 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:30,240 Speaker 1: I guess it basically comes down to their multiple factors 647 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 1: involved here, and it will be interesting to see how 648 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 1: how future studies might tease that out and determine like, 649 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:38,960 Speaker 1: you know what, what is impacting the scenario versus the 650 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 1: other and ultimately like you know what is the you know, 651 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 1: how each can be beneficial, the the psychedelic experience or 652 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:49,080 Speaker 1: the like purely non drug religious experience. Well, when you 653 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 1: encounter some kind of reality beyond that with which you 654 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,440 Speaker 1: were familiar. Yeah, what what tends to be correlated with 655 00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:01,080 Speaker 1: people believing that there is an entity there, like a 656 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 1: person or a mind or something versus just some kind 657 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,880 Speaker 1: of plane of existence or or you know, state of 658 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 1: truth or I mean you sound kind of silly when 659 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:12,960 Speaker 1: you start trying to put it into words yet again, right, 660 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 1: but I mean it is worth pointing out that, um, 661 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 1: you know, you're still looking at you know, seventy in 662 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,960 Speaker 1: both studies saying that there was communication. So it's it's 663 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,120 Speaker 1: like something is communicating with that there's some sort of communication, 664 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 1: but maybe it's you know, it's it's less directed, it's 665 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 1: less tied to an individual. H But anyway, it was, 666 00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:35,839 Speaker 1: you know, an interesting study to look at. And again 667 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,760 Speaker 1: this was this is Roland Griffiths who we talked about earlier, 668 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:42,399 Speaker 1: and that that earlier religious study going from two thousand six. Yes, 669 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,400 Speaker 1: so that's one sort of grandiose way of looking at 670 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:48,799 Speaker 1: the future of psychedelics and psychedelic research, right, figuring out 671 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:52,600 Speaker 1: how we interpret the divine and how they could even 672 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,000 Speaker 1: be as psychedelics can be used as part of some 673 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 1: sort of religious experience, like not only uh, you know, 674 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:02,560 Speaker 1: the traditional religious experiences, maybe some sort of new religious experience. Well, yeah, 675 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 1: I'm curious to see how the idea of psychedelically prompted 676 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:13,359 Speaker 1: religious experience squares with traditional beliefs in dogmas, because there 677 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 1: are very different attitudes that people can come at this with. 678 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:19,920 Speaker 1: I mean some people, I think some people look at 679 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,759 Speaker 1: the psychedelic experience and say, oh, this proof of God, 680 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,440 Speaker 1: you know, because all these people take these compounds, have 681 00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 1: experiences of meeting another higher power or something like that. 682 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,320 Speaker 1: It's got you know, the consistency of these reports indicates 683 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 1: there's got to be a real being up there that 684 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:36,680 Speaker 1: that people are encountering. And then people come at it 685 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:40,120 Speaker 1: from completely the opposite way and say Look, if you know, 686 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,960 Speaker 1: if people are taking drugs that are causing them to 687 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,560 Speaker 1: have these experiences, that would tend to show that the 688 00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,080 Speaker 1: experience is something going on in the brain and not 689 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:52,520 Speaker 1: like an actual spiritual being or entity up there that 690 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:56,320 Speaker 1: that's doing something right, Like why would that entity only 691 00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,799 Speaker 1: be communicating with people are primarily communicating with people who 692 00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:02,719 Speaker 1: have taking a certain compound into their brains. And it's 693 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:09,200 Speaker 1: interesting that this exact same reality causes completely opposite reactions. Yeah, yeah, 694 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,920 Speaker 1: that to one person it is uh, you know, faith 695 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 1: in God restored, and the other it may be a 696 00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:19,960 Speaker 1: sign that there was nothing there to begin with. So yeah, 697 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,359 Speaker 1: we'll be interesting to see how I see what kind 698 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,000 Speaker 1: of light future research sheds on this issue. Well, though, 699 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:27,399 Speaker 1: I also want to make clear that, at least from 700 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:31,239 Speaker 1: my perspective, I mean, I don't think that even if 701 00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:34,440 Speaker 1: you don't think that there are actual other entities out 702 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:38,240 Speaker 1: there that people are encountering on these drugs, that doesn't 703 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:41,760 Speaker 1: mean that the mystical experience is not fascinating and useful 704 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:46,239 Speaker 1: and revealing. If we are encountering other entities, even if 705 00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:49,320 Speaker 1: they're not like ghosts or some kind of being that acts, 706 00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:52,720 Speaker 1: you know, outside of our control, we are encountering something 707 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,280 Speaker 1: inside our mind that is a latent potential there. Yeah, 708 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:58,279 Speaker 1: and if you're communicating with that, even if you're just 709 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,479 Speaker 1: communicating with yourself, well, uh there, there could be something 710 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:05,279 Speaker 1: of value there. Um. So so that's kind of the 711 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:09,840 Speaker 1: grandiose view into the future, you know, communicating with with God, 712 00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,920 Speaker 1: envisioning God and communicating with the self, etcetera. On the 713 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:18,320 Speaker 1: other end of the spectrum, uh, Silicon Valley bros. Micro dosing. 714 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:22,439 Speaker 1: So I don't want to be too judgmental, but yeah, 715 00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:25,120 Speaker 1: I see what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, So I mean obviously, 716 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:29,359 Speaker 1: like the intended um goal with micro dosing is not 717 00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,239 Speaker 1: to uh justify the ways of God's to man, but 718 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,239 Speaker 1: to rather like be a little better your job, right, 719 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:38,640 Speaker 1: creative in your job. So we touched on this in 720 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,640 Speaker 1: the last episode of Well I Guess the uh the 721 00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:45,279 Speaker 1: episode prior to the last episode, uh and uh, and 722 00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:48,240 Speaker 1: I wondered if any research had looked at whether Silicon 723 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:51,680 Speaker 1: Valley types would actually benefit from micro dosing to enhance 724 00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:55,120 Speaker 1: creativity or novel thinking. Micro dosing, by the way, the 725 00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,759 Speaker 1: idea is generally there's no like, you know, definite definition, 726 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,600 Speaker 1: but generally it's taking one tenth of a tripping dose 727 00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,600 Speaker 1: of a psychedelic, So you're not having a you know, 728 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:08,640 Speaker 1: perceptually altered experience or not in any significant way. It's 729 00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:12,000 Speaker 1: more just kind of like thinking, this kind of loosens 730 00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:14,560 Speaker 1: the mind a little bit, right, Yeah, just kind of 731 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:16,640 Speaker 1: like not shaking the snow globe of the brain all 732 00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:18,319 Speaker 1: the way up, but just kind of like giving it 733 00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:20,799 Speaker 1: a little shuffle and then like doing an eight hour 734 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:25,120 Speaker 1: work day. So anecdotal evidence would indicate that it elevates 735 00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:28,759 Speaker 1: mood and mental acuity. But then ultimately, what do we 736 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,520 Speaker 1: have in terms of studies, Well, we don't have much, 737 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,319 Speaker 1: but there was there there was actually a study that 738 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,800 Speaker 1: came out this year that looked into this a bit um, 739 00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:41,320 Speaker 1: looking at micro dosing in rats. It was a University 740 00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:44,200 Speaker 1: of California Davis study headed up by Dr David Olsen, 741 00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:48,040 Speaker 1: and they micro dosed rats with d m T. So 742 00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:52,080 Speaker 1: they gave them one tenth of the estimated hallucinogenic dose 743 00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,320 Speaker 1: in rats. So that's one milligram per kilogram of body 744 00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,640 Speaker 1: weight every third day for two months. And this is 745 00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:00,960 Speaker 1: you know, again more or less andreed one tenth of 746 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:03,920 Speaker 1: a tripping dose. They treated them for two weeks and 747 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:07,239 Speaker 1: then began studying mood, anxiety, and cognitive function over a 748 00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:10,600 Speaker 1: two day period. And these were the basic results. An 749 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:14,880 Speaker 1: improved ability to overcome fear UH, antidepressant effects associated with 750 00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:19,200 Speaker 1: reduced immobility, and no obvious impairments or improvements in cognitive 751 00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:22,759 Speaker 1: function or social ability. Then, but there were also some 752 00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:27,120 Speaker 1: potential downsides. They observed significantly increased body weight in male 753 00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:31,640 Speaker 1: rats and neuronal atrophy and female rats. This despite the 754 00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:34,080 Speaker 1: fact that a previous study from Olson and company had 755 00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:36,560 Speaker 1: shown that a single high dose of d MT and 756 00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:39,080 Speaker 1: I should a single high dose of d MT showed 757 00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:43,239 Speaker 1: increased your own old growth. So again, this is one 758 00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:46,000 Speaker 1: of those studies that is not is just the beginning 759 00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:49,319 Speaker 1: of a story rather than anything like an end to it. 760 00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:51,960 Speaker 1: More study is needed, but it ultimately shows that there 761 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:55,200 Speaker 1: may be some quantitative benefits to micro dosing, but there 762 00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,439 Speaker 1: also may be some key risks, and Olsen says that 763 00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:01,960 Speaker 1: that likely dose frequency and length of time are going 764 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,200 Speaker 1: to be key here to whether we're talking about a 765 00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:08,160 Speaker 1: therapeutic dose or a potentially harmful effect. Yeah, and of course, 766 00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:10,759 Speaker 1: as always, you know, rats are not humans and our 767 00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:13,279 Speaker 1: brains are working very differently. But yeah, this is an 768 00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,320 Speaker 1: interesting indication of what might be going on. I'm especially 769 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:21,279 Speaker 1: interested in in the idea of overcoming fear and to 770 00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:24,120 Speaker 1: what extent if that's an analogy for what's going on 771 00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:28,520 Speaker 1: with micro dosing and human brains. Uh. If I don't 772 00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:31,200 Speaker 1: know that, it could be that there's some kind of 773 00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:36,480 Speaker 1: like positive disinhibition quality. I mean, this is something I think, Uh, 774 00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:39,920 Speaker 1: people have thought about alcohol before. You know that that, like, 775 00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:44,799 Speaker 1: sometimes people drink alcohol at parties because it makes them 776 00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:47,480 Speaker 1: more sociable. You know, you feel disinhibited. A lot of 777 00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:49,800 Speaker 1: the kind of like fear that would keep you inside 778 00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,279 Speaker 1: your shell goes away. But then of course there are 779 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:54,840 Speaker 1: tons of negative effects that come with alcohol. You know 780 00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:58,319 Speaker 1: that that also, like it might make you less inhibited 781 00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:01,319 Speaker 1: and and better at us socializing with people you don't 782 00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:04,880 Speaker 1: know very well, but also makes you stupid erth just 783 00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:08,240 Speaker 1: like you're not at your peak in every possible way. 784 00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:10,319 Speaker 1: And I would be interested to see if there are 785 00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:14,560 Speaker 1: ways in which small doses of psychedelics could be relevantly 786 00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:17,759 Speaker 1: disinhibiting without having some of the negative effects that come 787 00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:21,920 Speaker 1: with other disinhibitory drugs like alcohol. Now, obviously there's a 788 00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:24,440 Speaker 1: great deal to focus on in this episode about you know, 789 00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:27,600 Speaker 1: clinical research and and it is essential, but you know, 790 00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:31,759 Speaker 1: I don't think it's our only means of looking at psychedelics. UM. 791 00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:34,680 Speaker 1: Michael Pollen and others. They point out that the psilocybin 792 00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:37,680 Speaker 1: is not marijuana, and we can't really look to a 793 00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:41,279 Speaker 1: you know, one to one comparison on how decriminalization or 794 00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:46,279 Speaker 1: legalization will or even should proceed in regard to psilocybin, 795 00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:49,680 Speaker 1: for example. But but another, you know, I think important 796 00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:52,680 Speaker 1: note here is that even if we're not seeing, even 797 00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:56,160 Speaker 1: if we were not seeing all these potential benefits for therapy, UM, 798 00:45:56,239 --> 00:46:00,000 Speaker 1: are there enough negatives in place to rationalize the continue 799 00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,600 Speaker 1: you to illegal status of psychedelic substances. I mean, I 800 00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:05,040 Speaker 1: would think about it more from the other direction. I'm like, well, 801 00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:07,920 Speaker 1: are those negative effects enough that it should be illegal 802 00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:12,560 Speaker 1: and punished by police officers and law enforcement community and 803 00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:16,520 Speaker 1: the justice system for people to just have some? I 804 00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:18,520 Speaker 1: don't know. I mean it seems to me more like 805 00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:20,840 Speaker 1: the reasoning should be that there should be a really 806 00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:23,920 Speaker 1: good reason to make things illegal, not there should be 807 00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:26,480 Speaker 1: a good reason to make them not illegal. Yeah, And 808 00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:29,000 Speaker 1: I mean especially I mean we were talking about plants 809 00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:31,160 Speaker 1: too and fun guy, and you know, to what extent 810 00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:34,520 Speaker 1: should we outlaw fungus um, you know, or multiple species 811 00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:37,520 Speaker 1: of fungus you know, and especially if we're we're talking 812 00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:39,040 Speaker 1: about like all the other things that happened when you 813 00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:42,440 Speaker 1: outlaw substance. You you know, you you take these and 814 00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:45,640 Speaker 1: you these these things and you leave their traffic, their trade, 815 00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:50,200 Speaker 1: and their culture to fringe, underground and criminal elements. Um. 816 00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:51,680 Speaker 1: You know, because one of the issues with a lot 817 00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:54,600 Speaker 1: of illicit drugs is that by making them illicit, we 818 00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:58,080 Speaker 1: limit our ability to regulate them, to effectively educate people 819 00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:00,560 Speaker 1: about them, and to help people when they encounter problems, 820 00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:04,480 Speaker 1: be that problem a challenging trip or something like um, 821 00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:09,080 Speaker 1: you know, uh, addiction to a substance like cocaine. I 822 00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:11,799 Speaker 1: was actually looking at a study recently taught looking at 823 00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:17,280 Speaker 1: legalization of marijuana uh and in UH in the areas 824 00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:20,560 Speaker 1: they were looking at how it it lessened cases of 825 00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:24,719 Speaker 1: underage use just because since it was available legally but 826 00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:28,560 Speaker 1: it was regulated, um, there were fewer people below the 827 00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:33,000 Speaker 1: appropriate age acquiring the substance. That's interesting, So uh, you 828 00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:35,319 Speaker 1: know that easily we could do you could do a 829 00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:38,840 Speaker 1: whole episode, multiple episodes, just talking about all these issues 830 00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:42,600 Speaker 1: and drug legalization and regulation, what should be what should 831 00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:44,480 Speaker 1: be illegal, and what shouldn't be illegal, not only in 832 00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:49,240 Speaker 1: terms of substances, but pretty much anything within a given society. Um. 833 00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:52,640 Speaker 1: But um, I mean, hopefully in these episodes we've given 834 00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:56,759 Speaker 1: everybody some food, some food for thought, uh God, some 835 00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,359 Speaker 1: food of the gods for thought on that topic. Uh 836 00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:01,880 Speaker 1: and in gen role, hopefully you know, we've provided everyone 837 00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:03,920 Speaker 1: of a bit more information about the history, nature, and 838 00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:06,480 Speaker 1: reality of psychedelics so that you can make up your 839 00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:09,359 Speaker 1: own minds about it, or even change your mind if 840 00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:13,520 Speaker 1: you so wish. All right, So there you have it, psychedelics. Uh. 841 00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:16,319 Speaker 1: It only took us five episodes, but here we are, 842 00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:19,680 Speaker 1: and I feel I feel frustrated because we still like, 843 00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:21,680 Speaker 1: there's so much stuff we wanted to get to that 844 00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:23,960 Speaker 1: we never did. I just remembered we were going to 845 00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,560 Speaker 1: come back to the stuff about adult personality change the 846 00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:29,719 Speaker 1: psychedelics that. Uh, maybe we can explore that in a 847 00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:32,719 Speaker 1: future episode. Absolutely. Yeah, this is one of those rich 848 00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,040 Speaker 1: topics where you you know, the more you look into it, 849 00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:37,840 Speaker 1: the more stuff you bring up, the more you realize 850 00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:41,680 Speaker 1: you're missing out. And not even exploring. So if we 851 00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:45,600 Speaker 1: didn't talk about your favorite sub topic or issue in psychedelics, sorry, 852 00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:48,040 Speaker 1: we we just didn't get to it right. So we 853 00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:50,520 Speaker 1: would obviously love to hear from anybody. So if there's 854 00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:53,799 Speaker 1: there's a particular part of this five part journey that 855 00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:55,759 Speaker 1: you would love to hear a future episode on, you 856 00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:57,759 Speaker 1: want a deeper dive, you want to come back to it, 857 00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:00,720 Speaker 1: let us know about that. Uh. If you have general 858 00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:03,480 Speaker 1: thoughts right into us. Also, if you have you know, 859 00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:07,239 Speaker 1: particulars about your own experiences with any of these substances 860 00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:11,200 Speaker 1: or even with just uh, you know, hallucinatory experiences that 861 00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:14,600 Speaker 1: are not tied to psychedelic use, uh, feel free to 862 00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:16,600 Speaker 1: share those with us. And if you want to remain 863 00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:20,600 Speaker 1: anonymous on a future listener mail episode, you can make 864 00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:22,600 Speaker 1: a note of that as well, and we will definitely 865 00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:25,720 Speaker 1: honor that. Uh. In the meantime, heading over to stuff 866 00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:27,400 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind dot com. That's the mothership. That's 867 00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:29,560 Speaker 1: where we'll find all the episodes of the show. If 868 00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:31,640 Speaker 1: you want to support our little show here, the best 869 00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:33,560 Speaker 1: thing you can do is to rate and review us 870 00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:35,319 Speaker 1: wherever you have the power to do so, and make 871 00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:38,160 Speaker 1: sure that you have subscribed huge thanks as always to 872 00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:41,560 Speaker 1: our excellent audio producer, Maya Cole. If you would like 873 00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:43,440 Speaker 1: to get in touch with us with feedback on this 874 00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:46,040 Speaker 1: episode or any other, to suggest a topic for the future, 875 00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:48,400 Speaker 1: or just to say hi, you can email us at 876 00:49:48,640 --> 00:50:01,279 Speaker 1: contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff 877 00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:03,240 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind is a production of iHeart Radio's 878 00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:05,600 Speaker 1: How Stuff Works. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, 879 00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:08,440 Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 880 00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:13,720 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.