Speaker 1: Pushkin.
Speaker 2: This episode contains occasional course language.
Speaker 3: Here we go.
Speaker 4: Oh man, it's like game day for a sportsperson that's
Speaker 4: been training for ages, but only as thirty seconds on
Speaker 4: the field to kind of prove themselves. My brother, Simon
Speaker 4: and I are in our ridiculous American muscle car. After
Speaker 4: months of investigating, today might be the day I come
Speaker 4: face to face with Leslie Minuchian. You know how sometimes
Speaker 4: people say that they have butterflies in their stomach, Well,
Speaker 4: I reckon minds more like bats flying out of a cave,
Speaker 4: all heaps of them at once. The trail has led
Speaker 4: me to this small Californian town called San Luis Obispo.
Speaker 4: Leslie was spotted restocking shelves in a supermarket here in
Speaker 4: the last year or so. So we're on our way
Speaker 4: to that supermarket. All right, microphones in the incognito position
Speaker 4: down in the center of the car, sitting in between
Speaker 4: Simon and I.
Speaker 2: Hope you guys can hear us.
Speaker 4: Okay, all the people have been speaking to from her past,
Speaker 4: they all say Leslie won't talk. But I've traveled across
Speaker 4: the world to be here, and I've just got to
Speaker 4: get Leslie's side of this story. We're pulling into the
Speaker 4: workplace that Leslie's at we're about to be at, and
Speaker 4: she could be in the traffic around us as we
Speaker 4: drive around. At this stage, we just want to scoop
Speaker 4: the place out and confirm Leslie still works here. Then
Speaker 4: we'll figure out how I approach her. Before we've made
Speaker 4: a plan. We really don't want to be spotted. Now,
Speaker 4: we play the incognito waiting game. We sit for a
Speaker 4: while hoping to spot Leslie. Young supermarket staff walk through
Speaker 4: the car park to start their shift. This guy's going
Speaker 4: in there wearing his apron. So I wonder if there's
Speaker 4: a uniform like from your uniform, right, yeah, true mufty, Yeah,
Speaker 4: you're not in casual, Just wear what you want. It
Speaker 4: feels like everything around us is in slow motion. We're
Speaker 4: on high alert, sitting up like merecats, looking around the Savannah.
Speaker 4: Simon's pointing to a black car pulling up. Oh man,
Speaker 4: oh wow, we could be on here. I honestly think
Speaker 4: we could be on here.
Speaker 2: A female black hair can imagine her kind of driving
Speaker 2: a car like that.
Speaker 4: That honestly looks like her.
Speaker 2: Bro, that's that's Minuchi in mate. She's hopping out.
Speaker 4: No, it's not her. As we sit here, it seems
Speaker 4: like everybody could be who we're looking for it. She
Speaker 4: doesn't looked too far off yet, though it's close Leslie.
Speaker 4: There's only one more thing to do. I need to
Speaker 4: go into the supermarket and see if I can see her.
Speaker 4: I'm just going to brave a full incognito mode look
Speaker 4: around in the supermarket. Why because I want to confirm
Speaker 4: that she is there. I reckon I can do it
Speaker 4: without being spotted. It's risky. I don't want to talk
Speaker 4: to Leslie actually inside where she works. I don't want
Speaker 4: to create a scene at her workplace, and if she
Speaker 4: sees me, she might sneak off through a back entrance
Speaker 4: or something. Okay, here we go walking through the car park.
Speaker 4: Maybe the New Zealand accent will give me a wife,
Speaker 4: so I should sort of keep it a little low.
Speaker 4: This might be crazy risky, but I'm going to go
Speaker 4: even deeper into the supermarket. Hell man, this is this
Speaker 4: is some hectic stuff. I'm in the shampoo aisle.
Speaker 5: Oh okay, if the heart is racing, I'm going down
Speaker 5: the kind of main aisle now I'm going to peel out.
Speaker 5: Couldn't spot her behind the cashiers is looking further down.
Speaker 5: Oh my gosh, there she is. Absolutely that's her. She's
Speaker 5: working in the customer service aisle, and I reckon I
Speaker 5: might be able to get a long shot.
Speaker 2: All right.
Speaker 4: When I come out of the supermarket, Simon is off
Speaker 4: in the car watching the other entrance. I want to
Speaker 4: check if I'm right. I sent you a little screenshot
Speaker 4: and have a look at it, and you tell me
Speaker 4: if that's her or not.
Speaker 2: And as one hundred percent I just saw I didn't
Speaker 2: even have to look towards.
Speaker 4: Now that we know that Leslie's in there, we just
Speaker 4: have to be able to spot her when she leaves.
Speaker 4: I've spent so long hearing from all these people who
Speaker 4: say that they've been calm by Leslie. Today I finally
Speaker 4: got a shot at asking her about all this stuff,
Speaker 4: what really happened in Tahoe, San Diego, Hawaii and with
Speaker 4: my family in New Zealand. But I might only have
Speaker 4: one shot at talking to Leslie, so I need to
Speaker 4: be prepared, cool and calm. We retreat away from the
Speaker 4: car park to finalize our plan. Then it's all on.
Speaker 4: Welcome to Unravel Season four. I'm Olly WADA's and this
Speaker 4: is Snowball.
Speaker 1: It's been ten years now since I last saw Leslie Manukin.
Speaker 1: It took me most of these ten years to get
Speaker 1: past the destruction and lies that women left a new week.
Speaker 4: When my investigation led me to California, my brother gave
Speaker 4: me this letter for Cameron, the guy you heard from
Speaker 4: last year episode who owned phenomenal restaurant.
Speaker 1: I don't know you other than we share a terrible
Speaker 1: experience at the hands of Leslie Minuchiin. It takes a
Speaker 1: while to get through it, but you will. Perversely, it
Speaker 1: will help you knowing there are many more victims. It's
Speaker 1: not such a lonely place when you think it's just you.
Speaker 1: For a long time, I wanted to believe that it
Speaker 1: was just me. That Leslie desperately wanted to start a
Speaker 1: new life in New Zealand, and she felt compelled to
Speaker 1: do anything to stay here. This was the emotional side
Speaker 1: of the equation I believe Leslie plays on. Even after
Speaker 1: I saw the evidence, she still played on my emotions
Speaker 1: with cute names and crap. Given your relationship with her,
Speaker 1: you too would have heard all the stories about how
Speaker 1: she has been a victim of different people. And there
Speaker 1: will be a multitude of the stories, but I'm sure
Speaker 1: they'll all be falling down now exposed as lies. I
Speaker 1: really hope that you're okay and can get yourself sorted
Speaker 1: and back on your feet. Best regards, Greg Wards.
Speaker 4: That's just part of the letter in the full thing.
Speaker 4: Greg also suggested to Cameron that Leslie could be busted
Speaker 4: for what she had done, but it seems like the
Speaker 4: only thing that's actually going to catch up with her
Speaker 4: is me. I think I've learned a lot about how
Speaker 4: Leslie operates, but I'm no pro at this kind of thing.
Speaker 4: I normally stick to coming up with dumb radio talkback
Speaker 4: topics before I try to talk one on one with Leslie.
Speaker 4: I want some expert help.
Speaker 6: I'm Maria Kadikova. I am an author, psychologist and a
Speaker 6: professional poker player.
Speaker 4: Now Maria Konnikova, aside from having a name combining two
Speaker 4: Russian tennis players, knows what I might be up against
Speaker 4: and more. She's a doctor of psychology and she spent
Speaker 4: three years interviewing conn artists for her book called The
Speaker 4: Confidence Game. Maria says con artists aren't just liars.
Speaker 6: The term actually means confidence artist and it comes from confidence,
Speaker 6: not in the sense of how confident you are, but
Speaker 6: in the sense of confidence as in trust. It's not
Speaker 6: enough to just kind of commit fraud, for instance, lasts
Speaker 6: of people commit fraud and aren't just criminals, they're not
Speaker 6: con artists. And it's not enough to just kind of
Speaker 6: lie to someone you're just a liar. Then you're still
Speaker 6: not a con artist. So you need to satisfy all
Speaker 6: of those things. You need to gain someone's trust and
Speaker 6: take advantage of it for the express purpose of getting
Speaker 6: something that you want that they're not aware of.
Speaker 4: That does seem to apply to Leslie's past. She definitely
Speaker 4: had some plans going on in the background. I also
Speaker 4: ask Maria for some tactics that might get Leslie talking.
Speaker 6: Stroke Kerr ego. That's actually my number one piece of advice.
Speaker 6: The reason that con artists were willing to talk to me,
Speaker 6: even knowing exactly what I was doing, knowing that I
Speaker 6: was writing about them, was because they're very egotistical. They're narcissists.
Speaker 6: They love being the center of attention, and they're proud
Speaker 6: of what they do. So don't be confrontational. Instead say
Speaker 6: you know, I realize you're a good person. I know
Speaker 6: use their own tactics on them. They stroke your ego.
Speaker 6: That's how they get to you, So do it right
Speaker 6: back to them.
Speaker 2: We'll be right back.
Speaker 4: So if Lislie is anything like the con artists Maria
Speaker 4: has spoken to, I need to look out for flattery
Speaker 4: for her and from her. Now I have that swirling
Speaker 4: around in my brain, along with trying to be friendly
Speaker 4: enough to keep Leslie talking while also being firm enough
Speaker 4: to get some answers no worries. That's not the only
Speaker 4: challenge I'm facing on our ricky. Earlier, we found another
Speaker 4: potential issue. The supermarket has two entrances, and Leslie could
Speaker 4: leave from either of them, so we plan to split up.
Speaker 4: Simon will drive to the other side of the car park.
Speaker 4: If he sees Leslie, he'll stay in the car. I
Speaker 4: don't want her to feel outnumbered. We drive over to
Speaker 4: the supermarket. We get there around the time we think
Speaker 4: Leslie's shift might end. Heybro, are you in position? Yeah?
Speaker 2: I'm just like a clear view.
Speaker 4: So now we wait. As we sit there, some dudes
Speaker 4: go past. That give me some confidence we're blending in
Speaker 4: So funny because some guys just drove past similar muscle
Speaker 4: car with baseball caps on and I even thought it
Speaker 4: was me driving past. It's amazing. As the minutes tick by,
Speaker 4: I start getting cold feet. I could have just stayed
Speaker 4: at home. I didn't need to be doing this. It's
Speaker 4: twelve years ago. Everything's fine. It's gone and making life
Speaker 4: difficult for yourself wards. But I pulled myself together. I
Speaker 4: call Simon back to check him. Have you got a
Speaker 4: good spot on that second door.
Speaker 2: I'll just phone ready to greasy button of Centers.
Speaker 1: I see it.
Speaker 4: Okay, we're ready, but I'm feeling jumpy. I feel like
Speaker 4: I just need to keep talking. We're in the best
Speaker 4: possible park, the closest one to each of the two
Speaker 4: entrances to this strip mall. It's one level kind of
Speaker 4: regional shopping center that you might expect in Bellarat, Geelong, Hamilton.
Speaker 4: And now we're just playing the waiting game for her
Speaker 4: to come out so I can have a chat. Hopefully
Speaker 4: staff leave through this entrance as well. We did drive
Speaker 4: around the back a Simon hey Man's talking just in
Speaker 4: front of your brown the middle street as halfway.
Speaker 7: Okay, I see her, I see her. I'm running to
Speaker 7: it while she's getting in a car. She's getting in
Speaker 7: a car damn it, damnit.
Speaker 4: As I get up to Leslie's car, I hear the
Speaker 4: engine start. She's about to drive away. I try knocking
Speaker 4: on her window and she opens the door just a crack. Hey, Leslie,
Speaker 4: it's Ollie Ward's Hey.
Speaker 3: What's good?
Speaker 4: Hey, how are you doing?
Speaker 3: My god, how are you?
Speaker 4: I'm good. I've got to let you know I'm recording
Speaker 4: this because I'm making a bit of a documentary about
Speaker 4: everything that happens with you and our family, and I
Speaker 4: would love to get your side of the story.
Speaker 3: Wow, okay, well right now, it's not a good time.
Speaker 3: I'm super sorry.
Speaker 4: Yeah, if you can just really quickly tell me in
Speaker 4: thirty seconds, even like I just really wanted to know
Speaker 4: because I never got to see you again, like about
Speaker 4: everything that happened in New Zealand.
Speaker 8: Well, obviously, you know, I'm sure you've heard your parent's side,
Speaker 8: in your brother's.
Speaker 4: Side, and I would love to hear your side.
Speaker 8: Honestly, I would love to give you I would love
Speaker 8: to talk to you seriously. This would but right now
Speaker 8: is honestly, like, honestly not the best time to do this.
Speaker 8: I don't even know what to actually say. You totally
Speaker 8: caught me off guard.
Speaker 5: I know.
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, it's really weird, totally you, it's totainly me.
Speaker 8: What do you mean, It's like, that's just your personality,
Speaker 8: that's how you always have been, just to go get her,
Speaker 8: and you know, you like to get to the bottom
Speaker 8: of stuff and get the story.
Speaker 3: And I appreciate that.
Speaker 4: There is that flattery. The psych Maria told me to
Speaker 4: look out for. Leslie's opened the door less than Arma's length.
Speaker 4: Her engines running, So I just try to keep her talking.
Speaker 3: But I do have somewhere to go. Is there a
Speaker 3: time that we can How are you here?
Speaker 4: I mean, I can catch up with you later today
Speaker 4: or anything, or how about tomorrow? Tomorrow is great, And
Speaker 4: you know, I really do just want to hear your
Speaker 4: side of the story.
Speaker 8: And Allie, I totally believe you, one hundred percent, and
Speaker 8: I would love to tell my side of the story
Speaker 8: because I think I was unfair in some ways, for sure,
Speaker 8: but I think that everything could have been handled in
Speaker 8: a completely different, different way. And I'll start with that
Speaker 8: and maybe we can elaborate a little bit more tomorrow.
Speaker 4: That sounds like some sort of admission that Leslie knows
Speaker 4: she's made some bad decisions. But it's vague. She seems
Speaker 4: keen to meet up tomorrow and go through things, which
Speaker 4: is surprising me. She even gives me her number, no
Speaker 4: grab a number.
Speaker 3: Or something, you know, not a problem name for night.
Speaker 4: Okay, hang on, I'll just take this down. But I
Speaker 4: don't want to count on that happening, so I quickly
Speaker 4: ask another question. I know, you see that you kind
Speaker 4: of felt like it was unfair from both sides or anything.
Speaker 4: If you could elaborate at least a little.
Speaker 3: Bit, Well, I just feel that, I just feel that
Speaker 3: we should.
Speaker 8: Have all been able to sit down and have an
Speaker 8: adult conversation and to be really honest, Ali, I blame
Speaker 8: your brother a little bit for not kind of kind
Speaker 8: of stepping up and kind of pulling your parents and
Speaker 8: I together as one and letting us sit down and
Speaker 8: actually have a conversation about why I did some of
Speaker 8: the things I did to make things happen.
Speaker 3: You know, you know my.
Speaker 8: Intent was never hurt anybody, of course, But yeah, there's
Speaker 8: a lot could I could say, but go ahead, just
Speaker 8: like you.
Speaker 4: Never came back. I mean, it was twelve years ago,
Speaker 4: and did you think about it?
Speaker 3: Your brother never once called me.
Speaker 4: He never once called you after not after.
Speaker 8: The initial couple months of us kind of going back
Speaker 8: and forth and him kind of asking me questions about
Speaker 8: what happened, I got paperwork asking for an annulment and.
Speaker 3: Never never could from again.
Speaker 4: What about the business stuff? I mean, I'm interested as
Speaker 4: to what happened at the Dragonfly.
Speaker 8: Well, you know, the Dragonfly was kind of a yeah,
Speaker 8: it was kind of one of those situations where you know,
Speaker 8: I I did the best I could. I got in
Speaker 8: over my head, got Greg got in over his head.
Speaker 8: I didn't do my due diligence like I should have either,
Speaker 8: So you know, I was a big, big fault at that.
Speaker 8: But again I didn't have the support that I needed,
Speaker 8: the back support to see what we can do to
Speaker 8: make this better. You know, my my only reaction to
Speaker 8: the whole situation is let me go home to mom
Speaker 8: and dad, sit down, talk to them, see what we
Speaker 8: can do about it. But then the second I got
Speaker 8: back to America, it was you.
Speaker 3: Did this, this, this, this, this, this, instead of we
Speaker 3: all did it.
Speaker 8: We all made the decisions together, and we we all
Speaker 8: I'm not to say to blame, but I just think
Speaker 8: from an adult situation, I don't think it was handled
Speaker 8: the way it could have been.
Speaker 3: That's all that I didn't like.
Speaker 8: I said, it wasn't to go there and screw your
Speaker 8: parents over, and screw Greg over, screw myself over.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 8: I came back with nothing too, you know, and I
Speaker 8: had to start from scratch, you know. But your brother
Speaker 8: never once tried to try to pull us all in.
Speaker 8: He never came here, nothing, nothing. So what was I
Speaker 8: really supposed to do?
Speaker 4: All right? She's doing a pretty good job of making
Speaker 4: things sound like it was just a failed business venture
Speaker 4: a failed marriage. But Lesley doesn't know how long I've
Speaker 4: been working on this. The documents people have given me
Speaker 4: evidence of possible fraud, fake bank statements, court documents, police reports,
Speaker 4: even a fake lawyer. She doesn't know that I know
Speaker 4: all of that stuff, but I think it's on her mind.
Speaker 8: I think I feel that maybe some of the the
Speaker 8: ways that I went about trying to get the loans
Speaker 8: and stuff maybe weren't totally kosher.
Speaker 4: Yeah, can you explain that? And what do you mean
Speaker 4: by that?
Speaker 8: Well, what I mean by that is like I could
Speaker 8: have revealed my finances more instead of not.
Speaker 3: I didn't reveal them the way I should have, you know.
Speaker 3: But so that was kind of on me.
Speaker 4: Describing everything is not totally kosher seems like an understatement.
Speaker 8: But yeah, I mean really, I don't really honestly know
Speaker 8: what else is much more to say, but that, you know.
Speaker 8: I mean, like I said, I came back here and
Speaker 8: it was a lot of just a lot of phone calls,
Speaker 8: a lot of blame, a lot of well, you know,
Speaker 8: send me. I asked so many times, Allie to get
Speaker 8: paperwork to send stuff to me. All I received was
Speaker 8: some paperwork saying that, you know, I needed to sign
Speaker 8: over the business, which I did immediately. I signed everything
Speaker 8: over everything that they needed I did, you know, right
Speaker 8: from the start. I didn't try to not do that,
Speaker 8: but the fact that your brother never came here, like yeah,
Speaker 8: to try and even sit down with me and my
Speaker 8: parents and like, let me show you my side, let
Speaker 8: me you know, like I'm not I can't come back
Speaker 8: there because you guys already told me if I stepped
Speaker 8: foot in your country, I was going to jail. So
Speaker 8: how could I possibly come and fight my side?
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I appreciate this as upsetting for you obviously,
Speaker 4: you know, but.
Speaker 8: End upsetting For the last oh years, Allie, I never
Speaker 8: got closure.
Speaker 3: I never got to say goodbye to your brother. I
Speaker 3: truly loved him, So.
Speaker 4: Anyways, what would be the closure that you would want?
Speaker 9: It's too late now, I don't I just would have
Speaker 9: loved to have said goodbye and sorry for any mistakes
Speaker 9: I made or bad decisions I made, and I would
Speaker 9: have loved to have I would have loved to for
Speaker 9: him to have just a little harder.
Speaker 4: I'm feeling a bit rattled. I didn't expect Lesley to
Speaker 4: start crying or to even vaguely concede that she had
Speaker 4: made bad decisions. But the biggest shock is who she
Speaker 4: thinks was at fault. I thought maybe Mum and Dad
Speaker 4: would copy it. Instead, she's saying Greg should have tried
Speaker 4: to win her back.
Speaker 8: I would have loved to have had an adult conversation
Speaker 8: and sit down and go through all the numbers, have
Speaker 8: the bank guy there, everything. I even offered to do that,
Speaker 8: you know, and then all of a sudden, it was
Speaker 8: don't come back here.
Speaker 3: And that's what I was told over and over.
Speaker 4: I have to stop myself from challenging Leslie on that
Speaker 4: she could hit the gas at any second. What I
Speaker 4: really want to do is ask her about some of
Speaker 4: the things that might be hard for her to explain.
Speaker 4: What about the trust fund?
Speaker 3: What about it?
Speaker 4: Like, so you know, I just it's it seems like
Speaker 4: do you still have it or I do not?
Speaker 3: No, I do not.
Speaker 4: As Leslie speaks, I'm listening and frantically tapping at my
Speaker 4: phone to bring up some of that evidence that I've got.
Speaker 4: I just want to show you just a document that
Speaker 4: I that I've recovered on my phone. I have the
Speaker 4: documents that convinced Kiwi Bank to hand over a one
Speaker 4: point five million dollar loan, the loan my parents guaranteed,
Speaker 4: thinking that Leslie was putting her trust fund on the
Speaker 4: line alongside them. Like I said, I've been doing a
Speaker 4: fair bit of digging around just to try and understand
Speaker 4: everything that happened. And so I'm just showing you this
Speaker 4: thing on my phone right now, which is a Bank
Speaker 4: of America statement. Can you have a look at that
Speaker 4: and tell me what it is?
Speaker 3: Okay, from my trust fund, Colonial trust? Yeah, what about it?
Speaker 4: Well, it's a bit weird because the the numbers kind
Speaker 4: of trail off on a little bit of an angle.
Speaker 4: So that's okay, So you had about five million in there.
Speaker 3: Right, Okay, Yeah, that's what it says.
Speaker 4: But it's just a bit weird because then the number
Speaker 4: trails off on a little angle down on the side here,
Speaker 4: and if you actually add these four numbers. With these
Speaker 4: four numbers, it's some starting balance, money in, money out
Speaker 4: closing balance. It's actually wrong by about six hundred and
Speaker 4: sixteen dollars.
Speaker 3: Oh wow, Okay, that.
Speaker 4: Seems a bit weird for a bank statement, right, yeah,
Speaker 4: it sure does. And because the other thing is I
Speaker 4: found that statement, but I also found this Barclay bank
Speaker 4: statement which was a joint account between you and Greg,
Speaker 4: which looks really similar like it's it's got you know,
Speaker 4: the same things, money in, money out, closing balance, the
Speaker 4: formats the same the you know, Dad.
Speaker 8: Had said something about this too many years ago, something
Speaker 8: about banks tampens.
Speaker 3: Is this what he was referring to?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean even the barcode is the same on
Speaker 4: the two statements.
Speaker 8: I believe I remember him saying something about that. And no,
Speaker 8: I don't have an explanation for that. Okay, I don't
Speaker 8: know what to tell you.
Speaker 4: We've heard how Leslie always has a story, but with
Speaker 4: those documents on my screen right in front of her,
Speaker 4: she doesn't know what to say, those are the ones.
Speaker 3: I just forwarded. I didn't write. Those were forwarded to.
Speaker 4: The from you to Kiwibank to Kiwi Bank.
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, I remember those.
Speaker 4: But do you think it's a bit fishy that that
Speaker 4: statement looks the same as the other one and it
Speaker 4: was forwarded from you to I haven't really.
Speaker 8: Looked at him looked at him, but if you want
Speaker 8: to send him to me, I mean, I can give
Speaker 8: you an answer right now. But yeah, it kind of
Speaker 8: looks sishy, but I don't know like what to say.
Speaker 4: Okay, cool, Okay. Leslie specifically is that she was just
Speaker 4: forwarding things on to Kiwibank. I know who sent them
Speaker 4: to her. It was her old mate, Eric t Weiss Esquire.
Speaker 4: He's the lawyer Leslie would use for her bank headmin
Speaker 4: as well as her supposed book and movie deal. The guy,
Speaker 4: we're pretty damn sure doesn't exist. I want to ask
Speaker 4: about Eric, but I want to start gently. Can you
Speaker 4: tell me about your lawyer, Eric t Weiss?
Speaker 3: Okay, what about him?
Speaker 4: What's his deal?
Speaker 3: He's just my attorney, that's all. I mean.
Speaker 8: I haven't talked to him in a few years. But yeah,
Speaker 8: that's that's about it.
Speaker 3: Why.
Speaker 4: I tried to look up a lawyer called Eric t
Speaker 4: Weiss and I noticed that you're one he.
Speaker 3: Hit Los Angeles.
Speaker 4: Uh huh, Okay, could you put me in touch with him?
Speaker 4: Do you think sure?
Speaker 3: I mean if I have his phone numbers?
Speaker 8: So, like I said, I haven't talked to him in
Speaker 8: a couple of years, but I can give you the
Speaker 8: last known number for him.
Speaker 3: I'd be happy to no problem.
Speaker 4: Leslie's sticking with her story about Eric, so I'm thinking
Speaker 4: I can roll with this. So Eric t Weiss, he
Speaker 4: it was helping you. You were writing a book, right, mm hmmm.
Speaker 4: And what ended up happening with that?
Speaker 3: Never got published? Actually? Yeah?
Speaker 4: And what was that? The story of your life?
Speaker 3: Story of my life?
Speaker 4: H Can you tell me about what happened with it?
Speaker 3: No, it just never got published.
Speaker 8: We we actually sent it out to a few publishers
Speaker 8: and I think about ten or twelve just got you know,
Speaker 8: it's it's a chance you take. I don't know, like
Speaker 8: what to say?
Speaker 4: Okay? Cool? And just on the letter that was sent
Speaker 4: from Eric t Weiss to Kiwibank. Along with these statements
Speaker 4: in the email, it gave a phone number for Kiwibanks
Speaker 4: to call if they had any questions, and that was
Speaker 4: actually the number for your parents place in California, What
Speaker 4: do you make of that.
Speaker 3: It was the same phone number?
Speaker 8: No, I don't know, uh uh why and so why
Speaker 8: did kiwibank.
Speaker 3: Not call and verify?
Speaker 4: They did, and they spoke to somebody, So I was
Speaker 4: wondering who they would have spoken to that.
Speaker 3: It can't be possible.
Speaker 8: There's no way that my parents would like pretend to
Speaker 8: be somebody, if that's what you're trying to say.
Speaker 4: That number is still in the white pages listed for
Speaker 4: Lesley's parents. I'm just asking the questions, you know, So
Speaker 4: I'm just trying, can I see that or that? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, absolutely, sir,
Speaker 4: because that's.
Speaker 8: Super weird to have a to have my parents' address
Speaker 8: as Eric's contact information. And it's also the bank advisor
Speaker 8: actually spoke with Eric on three different occasions when I
Speaker 8: was sitting in his office, the bank guy that gave
Speaker 8: us a loan, so he would have had the number,
Speaker 8: the direct number.
Speaker 4: You mean he spoke with the Eric ts.
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, he had to have, I mean to you know,
Speaker 8: get all the financing and get all the approvals and all.
Speaker 3: That kind of stuff, you know.
Speaker 8: Yeah, exactly, and it wasn't just like coming from me,
Speaker 8: like he had to get He had to verify all
Speaker 8: the information. I mean, we went through like a ten
Speaker 8: to twelve days period work. He had to basically take
Speaker 8: all the information and verify it, make sure everything was
Speaker 8: like kosher, you know what I mean.
Speaker 4: So just a second ago, she was saying she could
Speaker 4: have revealed her finances more, but now she's saying everything
Speaker 4: was kosher. I just showed you that the statement that
Speaker 4: he used to show that didn't even add up.
Speaker 8: I understand, Yeah, I know, I see what you're saying.
Speaker 8: But I'm also saying that the bank that gave Greg
Speaker 8: and I the loan, he verified all that information, not
Speaker 8: just through me, like he had to call all of
Speaker 8: the financial institutions in order to verify those funds in
Speaker 8: order to give us alone.
Speaker 4: I want to steer things over to Lesley's parents, Bitty
Speaker 4: and Andrew. Okay, I'd love to have a chat to
Speaker 4: them about what they know about everything as well. If
Speaker 4: would that be okay, I don't know.
Speaker 3: I mean, I'll have to ask him.
Speaker 8: I'll be happy to I mean, you know, I mean,
Speaker 8: it's been a long time, and I'm sure they wouldn't
Speaker 8: have a problem with it. They always liked you, they
Speaker 8: always liked Greg, I mean, you know, and they were
Speaker 8: sad that, you know, stuff happened the way they did.
Speaker 4: There's more I could ask about her parents, but I
Speaker 4: really those questions can be easy to deflect, and before
Speaker 4: Leslie baals, I want to keep hitting as many topics
Speaker 4: as I can. You told me all about your trust
Speaker 4: fund and your bar and Hawaii and all of that stuff,
Speaker 4: Like what was the deal with all that?
Speaker 3: True? That was true?
Speaker 8: I mean I had my bar in Hawaii, at my
Speaker 8: bar in salth Lake Tayle, I owned a restaurant up
Speaker 8: here in Pastor Robless.
Speaker 3: I mean, none of that was lies.
Speaker 4: Interesting, she feels the need to specify none of that
Speaker 4: was lies. Now that she's brought up some of her
Speaker 4: past businesses, I ask about them. Starting with Hawaii, Lizli
Speaker 4: says her problems there happened because she's a mainlander.
Speaker 3: If you do a lot of.
Speaker 8: Research on Hawaii Ali, you'll know what it's like to
Speaker 8: be a howie and go over to those islands and
Speaker 8: try and be successful there with the local Hawaiian people.
Speaker 8: And you can pretty much ask anybody that you'll get
Speaker 8: the same story. So like Hawaii is a very gnarly place.
Speaker 8: It's you can't go there and kind of I guess,
Speaker 8: look at me type of person, which I did. You
Speaker 8: know that the story I told you completely true, And
Speaker 8: it's happened to several other people.
Speaker 4: If I remember rightly, some people kind of like came.
Speaker 4: You told me that they came to like sort of
Speaker 4: break into your place, broke.
Speaker 3: Into my house.
Speaker 8: Police reports are even over there on that broke into
Speaker 8: my house.
Speaker 3: I head under the bed. I've had a lot of trauma.
Speaker 4: You mentioned there was a police report. I've actually got
Speaker 4: a police report from that you filed there about the
Speaker 4: place getting broken into and a ring being stolen and
Speaker 4: you found a knife on your pillow case. So are
Speaker 4: you saying that that was a different incident or.
Speaker 3: That's one of the incidents.
Speaker 8: I'm not really sure. Actually how many reports the police
Speaker 8: actually filed. I'm actually really surprised that one was even there. So, yeah,
Speaker 8: there were several incidences where I called the police more
Speaker 8: than once, Holly, more than once, begging for support, begging
Speaker 8: for them to actually, you know, take care of the
Speaker 8: situation as far as that that situation was concerned, and
Speaker 8: none of that, you know, really matters. Now. I guess
Speaker 8: kind of grown, you know, grown to accept that those
Speaker 8: were the things that were supposed to happen to me,
Speaker 8: you know, same with New Zealand.
Speaker 3: But life is life, you know.
Speaker 8: And you got to you got to move forward from
Speaker 8: it and and learn from your mistakes and try to
Speaker 8: be a better person. And that's what I'm trying to
Speaker 8: do in my life. And I'm really sorry that Greg
Speaker 8: and I never got the closure, you know, but I
Speaker 8: really do wish that he would have given me that
Speaker 8: at least and came and talked to me and asked
Speaker 8: me the story instead of you.
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm glad to see you.
Speaker 4: But as Leslie becomes philosophical with life is life to
Speaker 4: be honest, for a moment, I'm kind of with her.
Speaker 4: Her sort of shit happens attitude is pretty disarming when
Speaker 4: it's off the cuff in the car park. But then
Speaker 4: I remember, I've heard a lot of allegations from a
Speaker 4: lot of people. I need to ask her about them. Yeah,
Speaker 4: I mean, there's just lots of questions I have around
Speaker 4: you know, people have said that you've sort of forged
Speaker 4: checks in the past and signed other people's checks for them.
Speaker 4: Have you ever done that?
Speaker 3: Wow? Sign other people's checks for them? Oh, I would
Speaker 3: love to know who said that.
Speaker 4: Now, And that's when I start to get into a
Speaker 4: sort of allegation response ping pong. Starting with this stuff
Speaker 4: about checks. Firstly, the Brazilian curfer called Georges, who told
Speaker 4: the cops Leslie had stolen his checkbook and charged up
Speaker 4: thirteen grand.
Speaker 3: No, absolutely not.
Speaker 8: I'd have no idea what he's talking about on that,
Speaker 8: But for him to say I stole a checkbook now,
Speaker 8: he actually stole money from me on a surfboard.
Speaker 4: She refers to Georges by his nickname Joker Joe.
Speaker 8: Didn't even have any money, so I don't even know
Speaker 8: what he's talking about as far as checks are concerned.
Speaker 4: Georges stands by what he told the cops and says
Speaker 4: he never took anything from Leslie. There was also the
Speaker 4: other guy in Hawaii, Scott, who told the police Leslie
Speaker 4: had stolen his credit card and checks.
Speaker 8: If he's who I believe, he is, older, gentleman with
Speaker 8: gray hair. He actually gave me a credit card when
Speaker 8: I was over there in Hawaii, and this is this
Speaker 8: is true story. He gave me a credit card to
Speaker 8: buy supplies for the restaurant, and I went and I
Speaker 8: bought supplies for the restaurant.
Speaker 3: Would not sleep with.
Speaker 8: Him, So then he turned around and called the police
Speaker 8: and said I stole the credit card and bought the
Speaker 8: girl with it.
Speaker 3: That is exactly what happened. Checks were ever involved. He
Speaker 3: never wrote me a check, nothing.
Speaker 4: So what about Tahoe where it seems like there was
Speaker 4: some disputes with the landlord of her bar over unpaid rent.
Speaker 3: I have no clue that would buy you between my
Speaker 3: dad and him. I don't know. My name wasn't listed
Speaker 3: on that was it?
Speaker 4: Yes? It is, Yeah, I have no clue.
Speaker 3: Never went to court up there ever once.
Speaker 8: So I got in trouble for a traffic violation up there,
Speaker 8: but that's it.
Speaker 4: I figure it might be harder for her to explain
Speaker 4: what happened when she got hit with charges related to
Speaker 4: check fraud. What about in San Diego and Oceanside No.
Speaker 4: Two thousand and three.
Speaker 3: No, I think I had some charge.
Speaker 8: There was some bank situation, but it got dropped. It
Speaker 8: was nothing that I did wrong, It was nothing illegal.
Speaker 4: You ended up pleading guilty to a misdemeanor for that.
Speaker 4: It was a burglary charge after six felony counts.
Speaker 3: I did not admit guilt to that charge.
Speaker 8: Actually, actually the charges got dropped on that situation because
Speaker 8: it was a checking account that it was open in
Speaker 8: my name and it was just a miscommunication. That was
Speaker 8: a long time ago. I can't give you exactly the details,
Speaker 8: but no, I didn't go to jail for that. I
Speaker 8: didn't get a felony for that either. It was suspended
Speaker 8: because the charges got dropped. So if you did dig
Speaker 8: a little bit further, it would not that there's nothing
Speaker 8: on my record for.
Speaker 4: That at all. Actually, she pleaded guilty to one of
Speaker 4: those charges. But I press on. I want to know
Speaker 4: about Cameron, the phenomenal owner from last episode. Did Leslie
Speaker 4: forge his checks?
Speaker 3: No? Absolutely not. And if he's saying that, then he
Speaker 3: can come and tell me that to my face.
Speaker 4: It's hard to nail down the details on these things
Speaker 4: while I'm just lingering next to her car. I want
Speaker 4: to make sure Leslie feels like she'll get a fair
Speaker 4: hearing when we meet tomorrow.
Speaker 8: So if you want to meet, if you want to
Speaker 8: meet me, or give me a ring and we can
Speaker 8: maybe go have coffee or something and finish us up.
Speaker 3: I will do that for sure.
Speaker 4: That would be great. I would really appreciate that. And
Speaker 4: then you know, you'd be I'll be able to show
Speaker 4: you some of the stuff I've got and you can
Speaker 4: take me through it.
Speaker 3: That would be fine. I'd be happy to do that, really, Ellie.
Speaker 4: All right, Leslie, oh, shake your hand. I'm sorry to
Speaker 4: bail you off on your way out of Okay.
Speaker 3: No, you know what, I'm not shocked. I'm not shocked
Speaker 3: at all.
Speaker 8: Really actually thinking about you the other day, Yeah, I was,
Speaker 8: I don't know, You've kind of popped in my head
Speaker 8: a few days ago, maybe about a week ago or so,
Speaker 8: and I was kind of wondering how you were doing
Speaker 8: and how far you went with your life and stuff,
Speaker 8: and you know, I think often of New Zealand.
Speaker 3: And yeah, so I'm not shocked at all, and I'm
Speaker 3: not mad.
Speaker 8: So you know, there's a lot of things in my life, Ali,
Speaker 8: that I've done that I'm super proud of, and there's
Speaker 8: some stuff that I've done that I'm not either. But
Speaker 8: I think all of us have, you know, And one
Speaker 8: is one one of my biggest regrets is not being
Speaker 8: able to go back to New Zealand and settle stuff
Speaker 8: the way an adult should be able to have the
Speaker 8: opportunity to do.
Speaker 4: It occurs to me that I've asked about stuff from
Speaker 4: the past, But what does she think of what I'm
Speaker 4: doing here? I'm making a podcast which is about everything
Speaker 4: with you and my family. And then obviously I've been
Speaker 4: sort of, you know, looking into what's been happening with
Speaker 4: you over the last you know, twenty odd years or so.
Speaker 4: So what do you think of that?
Speaker 8: I think that if that's something you want to do,
Speaker 8: go for it. You know, I'm not insulted.
Speaker 3: I'm not intimidated by it at all. You know, you
Speaker 3: do what you want to do. Okay. I'm honestly, I
Speaker 3: have nothing to.
Speaker 8: Hide, and I will be as upfront with you as
Speaker 8: I possibly can, with what I can remember and with
Speaker 8: the knowledge I have.
Speaker 3: Okay, I will.
Speaker 4: Give you that a cool thing you might like as
Speaker 4: I've approached Alyssa Milano to play the role of you.
Speaker 3: Oh you did really? Ah, thank you, that's pretty funny.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 4: Okay, let's talk tomorrow. Okay, thank you.
Speaker 3: You guys. Have a good one, okay, all right, take
Speaker 3: care for okay, thank you to take care.
Speaker 2: We'll be right back.
Speaker 4: Wow. Man, she's good. I even feel like I believe her.
Speaker 4: I'm walking. I've been looking at these statements and you know,
Speaker 4: forgeries and everything for like quite literally months, and in
Speaker 4: that conversation, I'm standing here like, Okay, well that seems legit.
Speaker 4: And I really hope that Leslie will meet with me
Speaker 4: tomorrow to talk through some of the stuff. Oh man,
Speaker 4: here's Simon. Do you want to jump out of the
Speaker 4: car in a weird way? I was just saying, she's
Speaker 4: very convincing.
Speaker 2: Are you flipped now?
Speaker 4: She's very convincing, cool as ice. She did cry at
Speaker 4: one point, and she said that she really loved Greg
Speaker 4: and she was really disappointed he didn't fight for her.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, I can't really comment on that because I
Speaker 2: don't know what to believe for it. We've just spent
Speaker 2: the last four or five days of people just showing
Speaker 2: us fake, fake, fake stuff that she did, so it's
Speaker 2: hard to really believe anything she says.
Speaker 4: But I don't know, Like.
Speaker 2: She was with Greg for a couple of years, you know,
Speaker 2: so I'm sure she has feelings for him. It's probably
Speaker 2: impossible not to, you know.
Speaker 4: I'm just amazed at how friendly. She was, and she
Speaker 4: was giving, and she had a lot of nice things
Speaker 4: to say about me, And she was even at the
Speaker 4: end there saying, ah, I was thinking of you just
Speaker 4: the other day, and you know that. Her big disappointment
Speaker 4: is she can't come back to New Zealand now because
Speaker 4: Dad told her that she would be arrested.
Speaker 2: Because she committed fraud.
Speaker 4: The thing is, when I was showing her stuff and
Speaker 4: she's like, you know, she was doing the shaggy wasn't me?
Speaker 4: You know, I'm like, but I caught you in the
Speaker 4: fake bank statement. Wasn't me? And what do you say
Speaker 4: to that? At this point? Yeah, just one second party.
Speaker 4: I'm gonna be sure no one else is on the
Speaker 4: internet that night, Simon and I call Greg. It could
Speaker 4: be tough for him to hear, but we want to
Speaker 4: play him some of what Leslie said.
Speaker 3: I never got clothes, I never got to say goodbye
Speaker 3: to your brother.
Speaker 4: I truly loved him.
Speaker 3: So anyways, do.
Speaker 4: You think that's real, real feelings?
Speaker 10: I'd like to think so. But in little Yeah Partami says, yeah,
Speaker 10: but I don't know the fact she had formed before
Speaker 10: I was around. Nah, how do you explain so many
Speaker 10: victims like you know what, was it just one mistake
Speaker 10: or is she just like a fucking serial offender? And
Speaker 10: it's hard not to see how she's not. It goes
Speaker 10: back to what she just said in the car. There
Speaker 10: never got closure. I truly loved your brother. I reckon
Speaker 10: that's all bullshit if there's a pattern of her doing
Speaker 10: this to many people, because there's nothing unique about me
Speaker 10: in that respect.
Speaker 4: Greg isn't completely without sympathy for Leslie, but for the
Speaker 4: most part, his sympathies lie elsewhere. We've beaped out Cameron's
Speaker 4: real name here.
Speaker 10: So I'd imagine she's having a pretty shit night. But
Speaker 10: for me, it's just a little bit about other people too.
Speaker 10: You know, it's not just about me. I guess what
Speaker 10: I mean by that is, you know is what what
Speaker 10: would say? What would the Brazilian guy and Brazil say
Speaker 10: and all these other people? You know, I would just
Speaker 10: be like, fuck, she said.
Speaker 4: The same ship to me too, Greg, Like I said
Speaker 4: last night, Bro, you've been super brave just even entertaining
Speaker 4: this thing. You've been honest and put yourself out there,
Speaker 4: wore your heart on your sleeve, bro, And you're the
Speaker 4: one that's actually worn this arguably harder than Mum and
Speaker 4: dad even So mate, good on your brother.
Speaker 10: I love you, yeah, I mean you guys, yeah, just
Speaker 10: I think it's pretty amazing what you guys have done.
Speaker 10: And you guys have done this for us right as well,
Speaker 10: so you know, right back at you to Today was
Speaker 10: a big day, man, that's a big day.
Speaker 4: Yeah, bro, big day. I don't know what to make
Speaker 4: of it all yet. Leslie was as cool as a
Speaker 4: cucumber in a couple of ice cubes. But I know
Speaker 4: lots of what she said melts away when I show
Speaker 4: her evidence. If she shows up tomorrow, maybe she'll admit
Speaker 4: more next episode. So I sent Leslie a text suggesting
Speaker 4: that we meet up at the Starbucks near the supermarket
Speaker 4: she works at, and she's just sent me a text back.
Speaker 4: So here it is, hi, Ollie, and good morning. It
Speaker 4: was really good to see you too. In the meantime,
Speaker 4: you understand Simon, and I start thinking about what Leslie's
Speaker 4: life must be really like.
Speaker 2: This kind of existence must be traumatic and fucking sad
Speaker 2: and just tolerable.
Speaker 11: I'll need some help to understand that they're motivated in
Speaker 11: the sense of power over other people, control over other
Speaker 11: people's lives and over ninety percent of cases, true connartists
Speaker 11: are repeat offenders and give them the opportunity to go straight,
Speaker 11: so to speak.
Speaker 3: They don't take it.
Speaker 4: That's next time for the final chapter of Snowball. Binge
Speaker 4: episodes of deep Cover presents Snowball early and ad free
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