WEBVTT - Beyond Betrayal: The Making of Season 4 0:00:01.760 --> 0:00:05.040 Hey everyone, Andrea here with something special for you today. 0:00:05.559 --> 0:00:07.760 What you're about to hear as a conversation I had 0:00:07.800 --> 0:00:11.840 with my Betrayal production team producer Carrie Hartman, story editor 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:15.880 Monique Laboard, audio editor Tanner Robbins, and associate producer Caitlin 0:00:15.920 --> 0:00:19.080 Golden on how we went about making season four of Betrayal. 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:22.960 We sat down as a team and debriefed a post mortem, 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:25.800 if you will, only this time, we recorded it and 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:29.880 launched a video on our new community, Beyond Betrayal exclusively 0:00:29.920 --> 0:00:33.760 on Substack. In this conversation, we get into the nitty 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:37.520 gritty details about how we conducted our reporting, the relationships 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:40.280 we've built with our sources, and how working on this 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:43.919 season impacted each of us personally. You'll hear about the 0:00:43.920 --> 0:00:47.879 moments that shocked us, the challenges we faced, and why 0:00:47.960 --> 0:00:50.120 we made some of the bigger storytelling. 0:00:49.600 --> 0:00:50.400 Decisions we did. 0:00:51.120 --> 0:00:54.080 These are the kind of conversations we're having on Beyond Betrayal. 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:57.720 If you like this, please consider subscribing to Beyond Betrayal 0:00:58.000 --> 0:00:59.360 exclusively on Substack. 0:00:59.720 --> 0:01:01.400 It is completely free. 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:04.360 And you'll have access to conversations like these and a 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:07.720 lot more content from me, my team, and our subjects 0:01:07.880 --> 0:01:12.560 from the Betrayal podcast. Here is my conversation about the 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:19.800 making of Betrayal season four. Okay, guys, we are here 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:24.440 today with a special video to commemorate the end of 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:28.800 season four of Betrayal, and I wanted to have everyone, 0:01:29.280 --> 0:01:33.840 or mostly everyone that made the season happen, So if 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:37.080 you guys would all do me a favor to introduce yourselves, 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:39.240 We'll go around, starting with Carrie. 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:44.040 Hi. I'm Carrie Hartman and I'm the producer of Betrayal 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:44.559 season four. 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:48.720 I'm Monique Leboard and I was the story editor on 0:01:48.840 --> 0:01:50.680 Betrayal season four. 0:01:51.000 --> 0:01:51.240 Hi. 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:56.040 I'm Gitlin Golden and I'm the associate producer on season four. 0:01:56.640 --> 0:01:58.280 Hello. I'm Tanner Robbins. 0:01:58.480 --> 0:02:01.800 I was the audio editor for season four of Betrayal. 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:05.360 I'm really excited to sit and talk with you guys, 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:10.440 because we haven't really debriefed the season altogether, and I 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:14.160 have questions for all of you. But I want to 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:19.440 start with Tanner because I've been able to meet everybody 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:22.040 like week to week with Carrie, MO and Caitlin and 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:24.680 talk about episodes that we've produced, but I haven't sat 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:25.760 or talked with. 0:02:25.720 --> 0:02:27.080 You about the experience. 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:30.480 Tell me a little bit about what it's been like 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:33.600 for you to work on this season as an editor 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:34.800 and as a listener. 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:40.919 Working on this season has been really fun, just because 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:46.320 there's been so much fascinating tape and things that I 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:49.160 would just get audio from. 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:53.919 Carrie and Caitlin and realize, how did they how did 0:02:53.919 --> 0:02:56.640 they get this? This is absolutely wild. 0:02:56.840 --> 0:03:02.200 So it's been a pleasure to year just such a 0:03:02.480 --> 0:03:06.920 fully well rounded story told in in audio that I 0:03:06.960 --> 0:03:09.000 feel like, it's so it's so hard to get. It's 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:12.680 so uncommon to have such a like deep access to 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:17.200 a group of people and to an investigation within a 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:21.000 police department, to have access to those files too, And 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:24.480 then just the random sort of people involved in this 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:27.560 story that, you know, nameless people who we can't name 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:30.639 because they you know, had were involved in the affairs 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:34.760 that Joel committed. Having audio from those people and their 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:37.600 interactions with Joel gives you a lot to work with. 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:43.240 And I actually told Carrie, don't tell me anything in advance. 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:45.680 Every episode I get. I want it to be new. 0:03:45.720 --> 0:03:49.280 I want to experience the show as I'm putting it together, 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:54.200 you know, literally, you know, putting it together, hearing the 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:56.720 story for the first time, I thought that would make 0:03:56.760 --> 0:04:00.400 it for, you know, a better experience for me. They 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:03.920 helped me give better feedback, but also just I get 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:06.160 to hear this story as if I'm a listener. 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:08.360 I was going to mention that that was one of 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:11.400 your requests to not know anything about the story ahead 0:04:11.400 --> 0:04:14.560 of time, and so you're really meeting the material fresh 0:04:14.720 --> 0:04:17.960 with really limited understanding of where we're going. Can you 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:21.120 tell me a little bit about some of the moments 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:26.280 that you've found shocking or that were really memorable to you, 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:27.839 like hearing it for the first time. 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:29.520 I'm curious what those were for you. 0:04:29.880 --> 0:04:34.760 The one that stands out in my mind is when 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:39.320 Joel is confronted at his front door by the husband 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:43.440 of one of the women that he slept with, cheated 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:49.000 on his wife with, and finding that we hear this 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:53.880 guy recorded it on his phone or something recorded this interaction, 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:56.000 and then we have that. 0:04:59.279 --> 0:04:59.720 My wife home. 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:01.920 Do you know who I am? 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:04.560 No, here's my wife, elf, the one that. 0:05:04.520 --> 0:05:05.680 You talk in your cruiser. 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:07.080 What are you talking about? 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:11.599 I'm not here to harass you, but I'm saying, Joel, Yeah, 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:12.400 i'mbout about you. 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:16.479 Okay, my wife is there. I wouldn't want to know 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:18.520 if you know her, I know you're. 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:21.600 Talking about I was like, this is amazing. We sort 0:05:21.640 --> 0:05:25.120 of have talked about this moment, and now we're getting 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:31.960 to hear it and hear the lies coming from Joel directly, 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:37.320 hearing him being confronted with what he's done and trying 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:40.680 to deflect it, and I was just like, this is 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:42.080 this is incredible. 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:43.000 That was surprising. 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:49.279 The recording of the the renter also was surprising, because 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:53.200 I just love anytime we have in the field, in 0:05:53.240 --> 0:05:56.360 the moment audio that. 0:05:56.360 --> 0:05:58.880 Can really take you to the actual events. 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:01.560 Because a lot of time and shows like this, especially 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:07.160 true crime shows, you're looking back on what happened right 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:09.280 you're asking people. 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:11.880 What did you do, what did they do? What did 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:14.880 you say? What did they say? How did this go down? 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:18.120 And here we got audio where we're we get to 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:20.760 hear it, We get to hear exactly how it went down. 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:26.840 And because it's such natural tape, there's so much I 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:30.120 don't know, texture to it that you feel like you're there. 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:32.599 I could see it when I was hearing it same 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:37.480 and that stuff was exciting to me as an audio 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:40.359 editor because it really helps me to, you know, paint 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:41.560 the picture with the audio. 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:47.080 Those two moments are extremely intimate. It is like you're 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:50.720 kind of dropping in on a moment and thinking should 0:06:50.760 --> 0:06:54.640 I be hearing this? And you're right, like we're asking 0:06:54.760 --> 0:06:58.880 audiences to imagine because it is a lot of its 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:01.200 past tense, or they're talking about something that has happened. 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:05.240 You're asking the audience to imagine something that has happened, 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:07.960 or create a person or an image of a person 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:12.360 in their head. But you're really giving examples through this 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:16.200 intimate tape to really showcase exactly what the interaction with 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:22.840 this person is and was. It's really fascinating and incredible access. 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:26.520 So it's been a joy working with you on this season, 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:30.880 and I'm glad that you were hearing things as we 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:33.000 were producing, and I think that was a really great 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:35.440 way to work together and get feedback. 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:36.480 So that was really cool. 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:40.160 Could I pop in with just one quick story about 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:44.960 that audio, specifically about that Yeah, of course, we actually 0:07:45.160 --> 0:07:51.280 almost didn't get that audio of the husband of the 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:54.560 person that Joel had an affair with coming to the 0:07:54.600 --> 0:07:58.000 front door. So what happened when we initially got that 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:02.800 huge dump of records is there was one corrupted file 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:06.080 in it that I could not open, and at first 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:08.960 we were like, oh, this is probably just it had 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:12.520 a really vague name of just an address, so we 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:13.920 had no idea what that was. 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:18.000 But I just had a feeling that it would. 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:20.760 Somehow matter, and I went back and I poked the 0:08:20.760 --> 0:08:25.840 police department and said, oh. 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:26.560 I think there's a mistake here. Can we have this? 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:30.800 And then all of a sudden we get it back. 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:36.960 And it's this insane in the moment tape. And I 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:40.800 just remember, you know, getting on the phone right after 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:44.320 we got that tape with Andrea and Carrie and Mo 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:46.680 and I really feel like that was a big moment 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:50.520 for us of this could be a season long story. 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:53.920 So yeah, it's cool to think about how that tape 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:58.480 is really integral to how we are where we are now. 0:08:58.840 --> 0:09:01.000 Since we're popping in here, I just want to mention. 0:09:01.200 --> 0:09:05.640 Tanner responded in real time. Yeah, okay. So as soon 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:07.800 as he listened to these things, we would get these 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:12.000 wild texts like, oh my god, are you kidding he did? 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:12.200 What? 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:16.120 So he really was like a listener, And it was 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:19.600 another way we kind of knew we were telling a 0:09:19.640 --> 0:09:25.160 good story. Was because editors are sort of notoriously I 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:27.680 don't want to generalize, but I'm going to generalize, like 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:32.280 very steady, I have like a kind of a flat affect. 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:35.520 You know, they work with tape all day. He was 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:40.480 like so emotive about these things, so we kind of 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:44.080 knew from his response it was interesting and different. 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:45.760 I was angry. 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:48.560 I was like, this guy's a piece of shit, is 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:52.280 what I was thinking. And it's like every every new episode. 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:57.080 I was like, Wow, this guy is plumbing the depths 0:09:57.360 --> 0:10:01.359 of human depravity every single episode. 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:02.400 And I didn't mention. 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:06.400 There's the tape of the two people who are well, 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:09.200 the guy who's accusing him and then the woman who's 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:12.000 sort of helping him cover up the renter who is 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:16.600 being forced to lie. Joel's making her lie right, And 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:21.240 later on we have the interviews, the internal affairs investigation 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:22.880 interviews with Joel. 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:25.640 Can you describe that for us? 0:10:28.520 --> 0:10:31.840 Just met her through there and then we started talking 0:10:31.880 --> 0:10:37.160 and then share common interests and became friends. But I 0:10:37.200 --> 0:10:38.880 just know it's our first name. I don't know her 0:10:39.679 --> 0:10:41.439 last name or anything like that. 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:44.480 Well, you recognize the pictures, right, yeah? 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:45.040 Now I do? 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:48.520 Yep, Julie. You know how that's looking right? 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:52.679 Is this the person making allegations. 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:55.240 We'll get to. 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:58.640 That, but I mean, if we're trying to establish credibility 0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:01.840 and veracity, I'm showing you a picture. I'm giving you 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:04.760 a chance to take a look at it. You're telling 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:06.960 me to my face that you don't recognize him. 0:11:07.400 --> 0:11:07.960 Well, I. 0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:15.120 Was mistaken. I apologize for that. I recognize her because 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:17.560 I just met her at the prow functions. 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:20.120 But that's it. 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:26.080 Where you get to hear him lie through his teeth 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:31.520 to his colleagues about what's going on. All the while 0:11:31.559 --> 0:11:34.320 we already know that he's lying, and we get to 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:37.680 hear him waffle back and forth they know he's lying also, 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:40.760 which was so exciting to hear the just the tension, 0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:43.360 and I had a lot of fun building that moment 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:48.320 in audio with sound design, these questions that are like 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:51.480 leading questions, and it's very obvious that the police know 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:55.440 what's going on and Joel's just not picking up on it. 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:59.320 And it was so satisfying after all the what the 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:01.480 fuck moments before that. 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:02.880 To get to the. 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:06.800 I mean, it's hard to call it come up, and 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:11.079 but it's the closest to come up and that we 0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:14.760 were getting at that moment, So that was really exciting too. 0:12:15.559 --> 0:12:18.319 I've gotten a lot of messages from you know, friends 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:24.240 and family members and listeners saying, you know, Joel's one 0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:27.760 of the most complicated characters out of the all four 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:30.560 seasons for a lot of people. And I'm not saying 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:33.560 his crimes are the most egregious, because we know that 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:35.640 they aren't. But I think a lot of people are 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:41.480 struggling with Joel because you could know this guy and 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:48.000 not know meaning it feels so close. Yeah, And I 0:12:48.080 --> 0:12:51.800 really appreciate that messaging because that's actually the point of 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:58.000 the show, which is like these everyday betrayals that really 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:02.760 root the you know, the pervasiveness of what's happening I 0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:06.360 think often is overlooked. It's like we can't always have 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:11.120 these massive, extreme betrayals for. 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:14.560 People to lean in and listen. It's these really every day. 0:13:14.600 --> 0:13:17.000 Things that make people question, Okay, actually there's something that's 0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:21.480 going on and this is actually close to home. Mo. 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:23.160 My next question is for you. 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:26.360 You story edited the season, but you also had the 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:30.760 privilege of interviewing doctor Jennifer Fried, who was featured in 0:13:30.800 --> 0:13:34.600 the last episode, and you were a huge advocate for 0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:38.280 getting doctor Fried on the show. Can you tell me 0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:40.000 a little bit about why you felt like that was 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:45.360 important and walk me through you know the importance of 0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:47.160 why we had her on the show. 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:52.160 Yeah, So with doctor Fried, I hadn't heard of her 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:55.520 before I started on this show, But after I started 0:13:55.520 --> 0:14:00.000 working on Betrayal, I was interested in the psychological experience 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:04.560 of betrayal trauma and what it does to a person's brain, 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:08.320 a nervous system, mostly just so I could better understand 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:11.320 the subjects we were working with and better tell their stories. 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:16.760 And so when I was doing that research, doctor Frey 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:21.640 is the godparent, the godmother of betrayal, the godmother of 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:26.400 betrayal trauma. I mean, she pioneered the field, coined the 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:29.840 term betrayal trauma. And then the more I was watching 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:33.200 interviews with her, listening to interviews with her, and reading 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:38.640 about her work, I realized, especially betrayal blindness as a 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:42.560 concept was pretty mind blowing to me, and I think 0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:45.280 really clicked made a lot of sense in what we 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:48.880 see in the subjects we work with. We get so 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:53.240 many comments from listeners saying, how could this person not 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:57.840 have known? And I think there is a lack of 0:14:57.920 --> 0:15:04.640 understanding about how thetriyal blindness really functions and that psychological phenomena. 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:09.920 So I thought having her explain it would be incredible 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:13.600 for the show and really educational for our audience because 0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:18.840 I had learned so much researching her. She is really 0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:23.960 the academic, foremost expert on this topic. Without her, a 0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:26.880 lot of the concepts we talk about, you know, we 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:30.920 wouldn't have this cultural understanding about betrayal trauma, We wouldn't 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:34.440 have these words without her work. So I was really 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:37.920 honored and grateful that she agreed to the interview with us. 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:43.440 You had a really interesting job this season, Vall, Carrie, 0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:45.480 Caitlin and the. 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:48.080 Editors were in the weeds of the every day You were. 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:50.760 That larger perspective of keeping the train on the tracks, 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:53.960 and it's like, are we making it to our destination? 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:57.400 Tell me a little bit about what episode you found 0:15:57.440 --> 0:15:59.960 the most challenging at the same time rewarding. 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:05.480 So for me, I couldn't come in blind. Yeah, we've 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:09.680 talked about before on the Substack. I had worked with 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:13.080 Caroline potentially making her story for the weekly series, and 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:17.000 I had done the first interview with her that was 0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:20.760 a pretty long interview, like five hours, and so I 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:23.920 knew already a lot of the details of the story, 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:26.880 but seeing it all come together with the tape we 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:29.840 were able to access from the police department and from 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:34.560 the current family's life that they gave us the people 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:40.160 around Caroline and her family, that was really incredible. And 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:43.360 I think one of the challenges that we hit was 0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:46.840 when we decided to expand the story out to be 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:52.520 about more officers in the Colorado Springs Police Department that 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:58.240 were also breaking the code of conduct, And so we 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:01.640 talked a lot internally about is this the right thing 0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:05.680 to do to zooml We're shifting focus from caroline story, 0:17:05.880 --> 0:17:10.240 but there is a larger pattern here and Joel is 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:13.160 not a one off case. And I think a lot 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:15.440 of what we do, the work we do on Betrayal 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:19.919 is taking a story and then expanding out to a 0:17:20.000 --> 0:17:27.560 larger pattern of behavior of wrongdoing and looking into how 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:31.359 that plays out in society and how people are able 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:34.480 to get justice or able to try to repair those wrongs. 0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:37.600 So I think that was one of the biggest challenges, 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:40.040 but I'm really happy that we did that, so we 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:45.400 have a larger perspective and scope on the Calado Springs 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:48.119 Police Department outside of just Joel's employment there. 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:52.000 Yeah, I want to turn my attention to Caitlin. You've 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:54.000 been on a few sub stacks, so people kind of 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:57.240 already know you as our associate producer. I want to 0:17:57.280 --> 0:18:01.639 talk to you specifically about tracking down the artal and 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:04.840 certain people of access for this season. 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:07.399 What were some of your roadblocks, what were some of 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:08.320 your breakthroughs. 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:10.159 What was it like because you were kind of a 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:12.040 dog on a bone this season. 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:16.679 One of the biggest challenges was, like Moe was talking about, 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:20.520 figuring out, how do we zoom this out without getting 0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:25.359 too far away from that initial story and these issues 0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:29.280 that were really asking people to think about of you know, 0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:36.480 police officers who are betraying the badge, and Claudia Aldrich, 0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:40.080 the whistleblower, was really at the core of all of that, 0:18:40.760 --> 0:18:44.879 and I think gaining her trust and getting her to 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:49.600 see that we are people who would honor her story 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:54.760 and the story of so many other former cops and 0:18:54.800 --> 0:18:58.520 employees at CSPD was really difficult. 0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:01.919 But you know, one of the things that doesn't get. 0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:06.560 Featured on the show is that we build real relationships 0:19:06.600 --> 0:19:12.320 with these people, and you know, it's been really nice to, yeah, 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:16.000 feel like we now have a relationship with Claudia and 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:20.000 that we've been able to you know, she's connected us 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:23.440 to so many different sources that we had on the show, 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:27.040 like a former cop named John Right who really helped 0:19:27.080 --> 0:19:30.560 us to understand the story of Glenn Thomas, and that 0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:32.320 was a really big get for us. 0:19:32.560 --> 0:19:32.720 Yeah. 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:34.840 I think the biggest challenge of this season was trying 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:39.840 to get former officers, current officers, current employees, former employees 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:43.679 of CSPD to participate. And when we were out in 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:46.240 Colorado Springs, we had people lined up. 0:19:46.359 --> 0:19:47.160 They fell through. 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:49.800 But while we were on the ground, we had already 0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:54.159 known about this whistleblower network, but it wasn't something that 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:56.320 we had really dug into yet to get access to. 0:19:56.760 --> 0:19:59.760 And I remember Carrie and I just like looking through 0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:03.199 all of the posts, sitting down with our attorney at 0:20:03.280 --> 0:20:05.760 lunch and being like, look at what's out here, look 0:20:05.760 --> 0:20:09.399 at what's online and being reported and figuring out a 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:10.800 way to make contact. 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:12.240 And that was something that you took on. 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:16.040 And really ran with and create a relationship with Claudia, 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:20.640 which was incredible. It went from this thing that felt 0:20:20.640 --> 0:20:24.919 far away online to an interview in a matter of months, 0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:29.800 which was amazing and I think had impact and I 0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:31.879 think one of the biggest struggles, and I think you 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:35.760 guys can all probably like understand, is that there was 0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:40.320 this balance of leaning into misconduct and culture, because I 0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:44.920 do think the culture at CSPG is like the larger discussion, right, 0:20:45.000 --> 0:20:51.119 because it breeds opportunity for misconduct. You know, we kept saying, 0:20:51.160 --> 0:20:56.320 this isn't an example of the most egregious misconduct out there, 0:20:56.840 --> 0:20:59.720 but we were really examining what does a culture do 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:03.639 and how does culture affect the behavior of people that 0:21:03.680 --> 0:21:06.239 are trying to protect your community. And I think that 0:21:06.400 --> 0:21:09.399 was the larger point of episode six and seven. I 0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:11.720 don't know how that occurs for any of you guys 0:21:11.800 --> 0:21:12.720 or how you feel about that. 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:16.320 Yeah, I think it was important for us because in 0:21:16.359 --> 0:21:19.360 our previous seasons, especially two and three, we've been able 0:21:19.400 --> 0:21:23.600 to zoom out and talk about child sexual abuse materials 0:21:23.680 --> 0:21:28.639 and how they're prosecuted or those crimes are not prosecuted often. Yeah, 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:32.800 and then with child sexual abuse in particular boys in 0:21:32.840 --> 0:21:36.040 season three, we were able to zoom out and talk 0:21:36.080 --> 0:21:40.399 to one at six with this one, you know, we 0:21:40.440 --> 0:21:43.320 don't have the same kind of statistics and we can't 0:21:43.400 --> 0:21:48.159 universalize it in the same way but there are people 0:21:48.240 --> 0:21:51.280 like Joel in a lot of police departments, and for me, 0:21:51.359 --> 0:21:53.160 it just comes down to the fact that if I 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:57.160 would call nine one one in a crisis, I don't 0:21:57.240 --> 0:22:01.760 want someone like that showing up. It's a position of power, 0:22:02.240 --> 0:22:04.240 it really is, and I think it's important to be 0:22:04.280 --> 0:22:09.600 able to talk about those people. So I do think 0:22:09.680 --> 0:22:14.040 that zooming out for episode six and seven, even though 0:22:14.040 --> 0:22:18.160 it was a departure, added something to the larger story. 0:22:18.240 --> 0:22:18.640 Yeah. 0:22:18.920 --> 0:22:22.320 I also think it's in a lot of true crime media, 0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:27.080 there's a really deep focus on the psychology of perpetrators, 0:22:27.800 --> 0:22:31.960 and I think that's super interesting to find out, you know, 0:22:32.240 --> 0:22:37.040 how does a person become a serial killer, for instance. 0:22:37.480 --> 0:22:39.320 But I think the trap that a lot of true 0:22:39.320 --> 0:22:43.600 crime media gets into with that is if it's just 0:22:43.720 --> 0:22:48.119 about individual psychology, then it's just about these bad apples. 0:22:48.640 --> 0:22:50.399 And I think what we've been able to do with 0:22:50.480 --> 0:22:51.280 this season is. 0:22:51.240 --> 0:22:58.920 Explore how is that psychology coupled with this broader culture 0:22:58.960 --> 0:23:05.200 of misconduct creating these perfect storms and you know, making 0:23:05.240 --> 0:23:09.399 it so that these people who maybe did have histories 0:23:09.480 --> 0:23:12.920 of abuse or you know, maybe naturally were more inclined 0:23:12.920 --> 0:23:17.480 towards lying, were then pushed even further right. 0:23:17.920 --> 0:23:20.040 I just wanted to add, you know, we were talking 0:23:20.040 --> 0:23:26.560 about institutional betrayal in episode ten, and I feel like 0:23:27.800 --> 0:23:28.680 these these. 0:23:28.480 --> 0:23:30.600 Episodes like episode six and seven, where. 0:23:30.480 --> 0:23:35.040 We're broadening out and talking about police misconduct, I feel 0:23:35.040 --> 0:23:39.399 like that's also in the cultural context that we live 0:23:39.440 --> 0:23:41.960 in right now. I think people are very aware, maybe 0:23:41.960 --> 0:23:47.159 more aware than ever, that there are bad apples, but 0:23:47.359 --> 0:23:50.879 they also spoil the whole bunch, as the expression goes, 0:23:50.920 --> 0:23:56.359 and that it is a culture that we all experienced 0:23:56.359 --> 0:23:58.240 and does have an impact on our lives. And so 0:23:58.480 --> 0:24:00.919 hearing this, it's kind of like we're telling the audience 0:24:00.960 --> 0:24:05.040