1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: Hey everyone, Andrea here with something special for you today. 2 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: What you're about to hear as a conversation I had 3 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:11,840 Speaker 1: with my Betrayal production team producer Carrie Hartman, story editor 4 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: Monique Laboard, audio editor Tanner Robbins, and associate producer Caitlin 5 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:19,080 Speaker 1: Golden on how we went about making season four of Betrayal. 6 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 1: We sat down as a team and debriefed a post mortem, 7 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: if you will, only this time, we recorded it and 8 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: launched a video on our new community, Beyond Betrayal exclusively 9 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: on Substack. In this conversation, we get into the nitty 10 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 1: gritty details about how we conducted our reporting, the relationships 11 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: we've built with our sources, and how working on this 12 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:43,919 Speaker 1: season impacted each of us personally. You'll hear about the 13 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:47,879 Speaker 1: moments that shocked us, the challenges we faced, and why 14 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: we made some of the bigger storytelling. 15 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 2: Decisions we did. 16 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: These are the kind of conversations we're having on Beyond Betrayal. 17 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: If you like this, please consider subscribing to Beyond Betrayal 18 00:00:58,000 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: exclusively on Substack. 19 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 2: It is completely free. 20 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: And you'll have access to conversations like these and a 21 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: lot more content from me, my team, and our subjects 22 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: from the Betrayal podcast. Here is my conversation about the 23 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: making of Betrayal season four. Okay, guys, we are here 24 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: today with a special video to commemorate the end of 25 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: season four of Betrayal, and I wanted to have everyone, 26 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 1: or mostly everyone that made the season happen, So if 27 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: you guys would all do me a favor to introduce yourselves, 28 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: We'll go around, starting with Carrie. 29 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:44,040 Speaker 3: Hi. I'm Carrie Hartman and I'm the producer of Betrayal 30 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:44,559 Speaker 3: season four. 31 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 4: I'm Monique Leboard and I was the story editor on 32 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 4: Betrayal season four. 33 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 3: Hi. 34 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 5: I'm Gitlin Golden and I'm the associate producer on season four. 35 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 6: Hello. I'm Tanner Robbins. 36 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 7: I was the audio editor for season four of Betrayal. 37 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 1: I'm really excited to sit and talk with you guys, 38 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 1: because we haven't really debriefed the season altogether, and I 39 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: have questions for all of you. But I want to 40 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: start with Tanner because I've been able to meet everybody 41 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: like week to week with Carrie, MO and Caitlin and 42 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: talk about episodes that we've produced, but I haven't sat 43 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 1: or talked with. 44 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 2: You about the experience. 45 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about what it's been like 46 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: for you to work on this season as an editor 47 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 1: and as a listener. 48 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:40,919 Speaker 7: Working on this season has been really fun, just because 49 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 7: there's been so much fascinating tape and things that I 50 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 7: would just get audio from. 51 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:53,919 Speaker 6: Carrie and Caitlin and realize, how did they how did 52 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 6: they get this? This is absolutely wild. 53 00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 7: So it's been a pleasure to year just such a 54 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:06,920 Speaker 7: fully well rounded story told in in audio that I 55 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 7: feel like, it's so it's so hard to get. It's 56 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 7: so uncommon to have such a like deep access to 57 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 7: a group of people and to an investigation within a 58 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 7: police department, to have access to those files too, And 59 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 7: then just the random sort of people involved in this 60 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 7: story that, you know, nameless people who we can't name 61 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,639 Speaker 7: because they you know, had were involved in the affairs 62 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 7: that Joel committed. Having audio from those people and their 63 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 7: interactions with Joel gives you a lot to work with. 64 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 7: And I actually told Carrie, don't tell me anything in advance. 65 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 6: Every episode I get. I want it to be new. 66 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 7: I want to experience the show as I'm putting it together, 67 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 7: you know, literally, you know, putting it together, hearing the 68 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 7: story for the first time, I thought that would make 69 00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 7: it for, you know, a better experience for me. They 70 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 7: helped me give better feedback, but also just I get 71 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 7: to hear this story as if I'm a listener. 72 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: I was going to mention that that was one of 73 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 1: your requests to not know anything about the story ahead 74 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: of time, and so you're really meeting the material fresh 75 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: with really limited understanding of where we're going. Can you 76 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 1: tell me a little bit about some of the moments 77 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:26,280 Speaker 1: that you've found shocking or that were really memorable to you, 78 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 1: like hearing it for the first time. 79 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 2: I'm curious what those were for you. 80 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 7: The one that stands out in my mind is when 81 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 7: Joel is confronted at his front door by the husband 82 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 7: of one of the women that he slept with, cheated 83 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 7: on his wife with, and finding that we hear this 84 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 7: guy recorded it on his phone or something recorded this interaction, 85 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 7: and then we have that. 86 00:04:59,279 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 3: My wife home. 87 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 1: Do you know who I am? 88 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 6: No, here's my wife, elf, the one that. 89 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 3: You talk in your cruiser. 90 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 8: What are you talking about? 91 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,599 Speaker 9: I'm not here to harass you, but I'm saying, Joel, Yeah, 92 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 9: i'mbout about you. 93 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:16,479 Speaker 6: Okay, my wife is there. I wouldn't want to know 94 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 6: if you know her, I know you're. 95 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 7: Talking about I was like, this is amazing. We sort 96 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 7: of have talked about this moment, and now we're getting 97 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 7: to hear it and hear the lies coming from Joel directly, 98 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 7: hearing him being confronted with what he's done and trying 99 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 7: to deflect it, and I was just like, this is 100 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 7: this is incredible. 101 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 6: That was surprising. 102 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 7: The recording of the the renter also was surprising, because 103 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 7: I just love anytime we have in the field, in 104 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 7: the moment audio that. 105 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 6: Can really take you to the actual events. 106 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 7: Because a lot of time and shows like this, especially 107 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 7: true crime shows, you're looking back on what happened right 108 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:09,280 Speaker 7: you're asking people. 109 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 6: What did you do, what did they do? What did 110 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 6: you say? What did they say? How did this go down? 111 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 7: And here we got audio where we're we get to 112 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 7: hear it, We get to hear exactly how it went down. 113 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 7: And because it's such natural tape, there's so much I 114 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 7: don't know, texture to it that you feel like you're there. 115 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:32,599 Speaker 7: I could see it when I was hearing it same 116 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:37,480 Speaker 7: and that stuff was exciting to me as an audio 117 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,359 Speaker 7: editor because it really helps me to, you know, paint 118 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 7: the picture with the audio. 119 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: Those two moments are extremely intimate. It is like you're 120 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:50,720 Speaker 1: kind of dropping in on a moment and thinking should 121 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 1: I be hearing this? And you're right, like we're asking 122 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: audiences to imagine because it is a lot of its 123 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: past tense, or they're talking about something that has happened. 124 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 1: You're asking the audience to imagine something that has happened, 125 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: or create a person or an image of a person 126 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: in their head. But you're really giving examples through this 127 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 1: intimate tape to really showcase exactly what the interaction with 128 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 1: this person is and was. It's really fascinating and incredible access. 129 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: So it's been a joy working with you on this season, 130 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: and I'm glad that you were hearing things as we 131 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: were producing, and I think that was a really great 132 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: way to work together and get feedback. 133 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 2: So that was really cool. 134 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 5: Could I pop in with just one quick story about 135 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 5: that audio, specifically about that Yeah, of course, we actually 136 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 5: almost didn't get that audio of the husband of the 137 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 5: person that Joel had an affair with coming to the 138 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 5: front door. So what happened when we initially got that 139 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 5: huge dump of records is there was one corrupted file 140 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 5: in it that I could not open, and at first 141 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 5: we were like, oh, this is probably just it had 142 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 5: a really vague name of just an address, so we 143 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 5: had no idea what that was. 144 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 10: But I just had a feeling that it would. 145 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 5: Somehow matter, and I went back and I poked the 146 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 5: police department and said, oh. 147 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 10: I think there's a mistake here. Can we have this? 148 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 10: And then all of a sudden we get it back. 149 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 5: And it's this insane in the moment tape. And I 150 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 5: just remember, you know, getting on the phone right after 151 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 5: we got that tape with Andrea and Carrie and Mo 152 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:46,680 Speaker 5: and I really feel like that was a big moment 153 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 5: for us of this could be a season long story. 154 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 5: So yeah, it's cool to think about how that tape 155 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 5: is really integral to how we are where we are now. 156 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 3: Since we're popping in here, I just want to mention. 157 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 3: Tanner responded in real time. Yeah, okay. So as soon 158 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 3: as he listened to these things, we would get these 159 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 3: wild texts like, oh my god, are you kidding he did? 160 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 8: What? 161 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 3: So he really was like a listener, And it was 162 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 3: another way we kind of knew we were telling a 163 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 3: good story. Was because editors are sort of notoriously I 164 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 3: don't want to generalize, but I'm going to generalize, like 165 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 3: very steady, I have like a kind of a flat affect. 166 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 3: You know, they work with tape all day. He was 167 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 3: like so emotive about these things, so we kind of 168 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 3: knew from his response it was interesting and different. 169 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 6: I was angry. 170 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 7: I was like, this guy's a piece of shit, is 171 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 7: what I was thinking. And it's like every every new episode. 172 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 7: I was like, Wow, this guy is plumbing the depths 173 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:01,359 Speaker 7: of human depravity every single episode. 174 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 6: And I didn't mention. 175 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 7: There's the tape of the two people who are well, 176 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 7: the guy who's accusing him and then the woman who's 177 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 7: sort of helping him cover up the renter who is 178 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 7: being forced to lie. Joel's making her lie right, And 179 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 7: later on we have the interviews, the internal affairs investigation 180 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 7: interviews with Joel. 181 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 8: Can you describe that for us? 182 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 9: Just met her through there and then we started talking 183 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 9: and then share common interests and became friends. But I 184 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 9: just know it's our first name. I don't know her 185 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:41,439 Speaker 9: last name or anything like that. 186 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 8: Well, you recognize the pictures, right, yeah? 187 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 6: Now I do? 188 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 8: Yep, Julie. You know how that's looking right? 189 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 9: Is this the person making allegations. 190 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 6: We'll get to. 191 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 8: That, but I mean, if we're trying to establish credibility 192 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 8: and veracity, I'm showing you a picture. I'm giving you 193 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 8: a chance to take a look at it. You're telling 194 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 8: me to my face that you don't recognize him. 195 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 7: Well, I. 196 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 9: Was mistaken. I apologize for that. I recognize her because 197 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 9: I just met her at the prow functions. 198 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 6: But that's it. 199 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 7: Where you get to hear him lie through his teeth 200 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 7: to his colleagues about what's going on. All the while 201 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 7: we already know that he's lying, and we get to 202 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:37,680 Speaker 7: hear him waffle back and forth they know he's lying also, 203 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 7: which was so exciting to hear the just the tension, 204 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 7: and I had a lot of fun building that moment 205 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 7: in audio with sound design, these questions that are like 206 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 7: leading questions, and it's very obvious that the police know 207 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 7: what's going on and Joel's just not picking up on it. 208 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 7: And it was so satisfying after all the what the 209 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 7: fuck moments before that. 210 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 6: To get to the. 211 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 7: I mean, it's hard to call it come up, and 212 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:11,079 Speaker 7: but it's the closest to come up and that we 213 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 7: were getting at that moment, So that was really exciting too. 214 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 1: I've gotten a lot of messages from you know, friends 215 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: and family members and listeners saying, you know, Joel's one 216 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: of the most complicated characters out of the all four 217 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:30,560 Speaker 1: seasons for a lot of people. And I'm not saying 218 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 1: his crimes are the most egregious, because we know that 219 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: they aren't. But I think a lot of people are 220 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 1: struggling with Joel because you could know this guy and 221 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 1: not know meaning it feels so close. Yeah, And I 222 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: really appreciate that messaging because that's actually the point of 223 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 1: the show, which is like these everyday betrayals that really 224 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: root the you know, the pervasiveness of what's happening I 225 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: think often is overlooked. It's like we can't always have 226 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: these massive, extreme betrayals for. 227 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 2: People to lean in and listen. It's these really every day. 228 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: Things that make people question, Okay, actually there's something that's 229 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: going on and this is actually close to home. Mo. 230 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 2: My next question is for you. 231 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: You story edited the season, but you also had the 232 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 1: privilege of interviewing doctor Jennifer Fried, who was featured in 233 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: the last episode, and you were a huge advocate for 234 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: getting doctor Fried on the show. Can you tell me 235 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: a little bit about why you felt like that was 236 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: important and walk me through you know the importance of 237 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 1: why we had her on the show. 238 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, So with doctor Fried, I hadn't heard of her 239 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 4: before I started on this show, But after I started 240 00:13:55,520 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 4: working on Betrayal, I was interested in the psychological experience 241 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 4: of betrayal trauma and what it does to a person's brain, 242 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 4: a nervous system, mostly just so I could better understand 243 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 4: the subjects we were working with and better tell their stories. 244 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 4: And so when I was doing that research, doctor Frey 245 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 4: is the godparent, the godmother of betrayal, the godmother of 246 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 4: betrayal trauma. I mean, she pioneered the field, coined the 247 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 4: term betrayal trauma. And then the more I was watching 248 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 4: interviews with her, listening to interviews with her, and reading 249 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 4: about her work, I realized, especially betrayal blindness as a 250 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 4: concept was pretty mind blowing to me, and I think 251 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 4: really clicked made a lot of sense in what we 252 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 4: see in the subjects we work with. We get so 253 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 4: many comments from listeners saying, how could this person not 254 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 4: have known? And I think there is a lack of 255 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 4: understanding about how thetriyal blindness really functions and that psychological phenomena. 256 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 4: So I thought having her explain it would be incredible 257 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 4: for the show and really educational for our audience because 258 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 4: I had learned so much researching her. She is really 259 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 4: the academic, foremost expert on this topic. Without her, a 260 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 4: lot of the concepts we talk about, you know, we 261 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 4: wouldn't have this cultural understanding about betrayal trauma, We wouldn't 262 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 4: have these words without her work. So I was really 263 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 4: honored and grateful that she agreed to the interview with us. 264 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 1: You had a really interesting job this season, Vall, Carrie, 265 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 1: Caitlin and the. 266 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 2: Editors were in the weeds of the every day You were. 267 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: That larger perspective of keeping the train on the tracks, 268 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 1: and it's like, are we making it to our destination? 269 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about what episode you found 270 00:15:57,440 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: the most challenging at the same time rewarding. 271 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 4: So for me, I couldn't come in blind. Yeah, we've 272 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 4: talked about before on the Substack. I had worked with 273 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 4: Caroline potentially making her story for the weekly series, and 274 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 4: I had done the first interview with her that was 275 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 4: a pretty long interview, like five hours, and so I 276 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 4: knew already a lot of the details of the story, 277 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 4: but seeing it all come together with the tape we 278 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 4: were able to access from the police department and from 279 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 4: the current family's life that they gave us the people 280 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 4: around Caroline and her family, that was really incredible. And 281 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 4: I think one of the challenges that we hit was 282 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 4: when we decided to expand the story out to be 283 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 4: about more officers in the Colorado Springs Police Department that 284 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 4: were also breaking the code of conduct, And so we 285 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 4: talked a lot internally about is this the right thing 286 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 4: to do to zooml We're shifting focus from caroline story, 287 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 4: but there is a larger pattern here and Joel is 288 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:13,160 Speaker 4: not a one off case. And I think a lot 289 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 4: of what we do, the work we do on Betrayal 290 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:19,919 Speaker 4: is taking a story and then expanding out to a 291 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 4: larger pattern of behavior of wrongdoing and looking into how 292 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 4: that plays out in society and how people are able 293 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 4: to get justice or able to try to repair those wrongs. 294 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 4: So I think that was one of the biggest challenges, 295 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 4: but I'm really happy that we did that, so we 296 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:45,400 Speaker 4: have a larger perspective and scope on the Calado Springs 297 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 4: Police Department outside of just Joel's employment there. 298 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to turn my attention to Caitlin. You've 299 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 1: been on a few sub stacks, so people kind of 300 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: already know you as our associate producer. I want to 301 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 1: talk to you specifically about tracking down the artal and 302 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 1: certain people of access for this season. 303 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:07,399 Speaker 2: What were some of your roadblocks, what were some of 304 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 2: your breakthroughs. 305 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 1: What was it like because you were kind of a 306 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: dog on a bone this season. 307 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,679 Speaker 5: One of the biggest challenges was, like Moe was talking about, 308 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 5: figuring out, how do we zoom this out without getting 309 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 5: too far away from that initial story and these issues 310 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 5: that were really asking people to think about of you know, 311 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 5: police officers who are betraying the badge, and Claudia Aldrich, 312 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 5: the whistleblower, was really at the core of all of that, 313 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 5: and I think gaining her trust and getting her to 314 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 5: see that we are people who would honor her story 315 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 5: and the story of so many other former cops and 316 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 5: employees at CSPD was really difficult. 317 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:01,919 Speaker 10: But you know, one of the things that doesn't get. 318 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 5: Featured on the show is that we build real relationships 319 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 5: with these people, and you know, it's been really nice to, yeah, 320 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 5: feel like we now have a relationship with Claudia and 321 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 5: that we've been able to you know, she's connected us 322 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,440 Speaker 5: to so many different sources that we had on the show, 323 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 5: like a former cop named John Right who really helped 324 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 5: us to understand the story of Glenn Thomas, and that 325 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 5: was a really big get for us. 326 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 3: Yeah. 327 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 1: I think the biggest challenge of this season was trying 328 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: to get former officers, current officers, current employees, former employees 329 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,679 Speaker 1: of CSPD to participate. And when we were out in 330 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 1: Colorado Springs, we had people lined up. 331 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:47,160 Speaker 2: They fell through. 332 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: But while we were on the ground, we had already 333 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:54,159 Speaker 1: known about this whistleblower network, but it wasn't something that 334 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 1: we had really dug into yet to get access to. 335 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: And I remember Carrie and I just like looking through 336 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,199 Speaker 1: all of the posts, sitting down with our attorney at 337 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: lunch and being like, look at what's out here, look 338 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,399 Speaker 1: at what's online and being reported and figuring out a 339 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: way to make contact. 340 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 2: And that was something that you took on. 341 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: And really ran with and create a relationship with Claudia, 342 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:20,640 Speaker 1: which was incredible. It went from this thing that felt 343 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:24,919 Speaker 1: far away online to an interview in a matter of months, 344 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: which was amazing and I think had impact and I 345 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:31,879 Speaker 1: think one of the biggest struggles, and I think you 346 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: guys can all probably like understand, is that there was 347 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: this balance of leaning into misconduct and culture, because I 348 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:44,920 Speaker 1: do think the culture at CSPG is like the larger discussion, right, 349 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 1: because it breeds opportunity for misconduct. You know, we kept saying, 350 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: this isn't an example of the most egregious misconduct out there, 351 00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 1: but we were really examining what does a culture do 352 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 1: and how does culture affect the behavior of people that 353 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,239 Speaker 1: are trying to protect your community. And I think that 354 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 1: was the larger point of episode six and seven. I 355 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 1: don't know how that occurs for any of you guys 356 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 1: or how you feel about that. 357 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it was important for us because in 358 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,360 Speaker 4: our previous seasons, especially two and three, we've been able 359 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 4: to zoom out and talk about child sexual abuse materials 360 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:28,639 Speaker 4: and how they're prosecuted or those crimes are not prosecuted often. Yeah, 361 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 4: and then with child sexual abuse in particular boys in 362 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 4: season three, we were able to zoom out and talk 363 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:40,399 Speaker 4: to one at six with this one, you know, we 364 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 4: don't have the same kind of statistics and we can't 365 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 4: universalize it in the same way but there are people 366 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 4: like Joel in a lot of police departments, and for me, 367 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 4: it just comes down to the fact that if I 368 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:57,160 Speaker 4: would call nine one one in a crisis, I don't 369 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 4: want someone like that showing up. It's a position of power, 370 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 4: it really is, and I think it's important to be 371 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 4: able to talk about those people. So I do think 372 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 4: that zooming out for episode six and seven, even though 373 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:18,160 Speaker 4: it was a departure, added something to the larger story. 374 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:18,640 Speaker 3: Yeah. 375 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 5: I also think it's in a lot of true crime media, 376 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 5: there's a really deep focus on the psychology of perpetrators, 377 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 5: and I think that's super interesting to find out, you know, 378 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 5: how does a person become a serial killer, for instance. 379 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 5: But I think the trap that a lot of true 380 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 5: crime media gets into with that is if it's just 381 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:48,119 Speaker 5: about individual psychology, then it's just about these bad apples. 382 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:50,399 Speaker 10: And I think what we've been able to do with 383 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 10: this season is. 384 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 11: Explore how is that psychology coupled with this broader culture 385 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 11: of misconduct creating these perfect storms and you know, making 386 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:09,399 Speaker 11: it so that these people who maybe did have histories 387 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 11: of abuse or you know, maybe naturally were more inclined 388 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 11: towards lying, were then pushed even further right. 389 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 7: I just wanted to add, you know, we were talking 390 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 7: about institutional betrayal in episode ten, and I feel like 391 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 7: these these. 392 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 6: Episodes like episode six and seven, where. 393 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 7: We're broadening out and talking about police misconduct, I feel 394 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:39,399 Speaker 7: like that's also in the cultural context that we live 395 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 7: in right now. I think people are very aware, maybe 396 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:47,159 Speaker 7: more aware than ever, that there are bad apples, but 397 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 7: they also spoil the whole bunch, as the expression goes, 398 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 7: and that it is a culture that we all experienced 399 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 7: and does have an impact on our lives. And so 400 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:00,919 Speaker 7: hearing this, it's kind of like we're telling the audience 401 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 7: what they already in some ways, no, but we're giving 402 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 7: them this view of this very specific department and how 403 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 7: the sausage of this institutional betrayal is made, which I 404 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:20,880 Speaker 7: thought was really valuable and also, if not shocking, at 405 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 7: least validating to the way that a lot of people 406 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 7: feel and think about their own police department. 407 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,239 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's another reason I was so glad we were 408 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:37,400 Speaker 4: able to interview doctor Fried because Caroline, having put twenty 409 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 4: years of her life into supporting her husband and believing 410 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 4: in the police department and his career in the police department, 411 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 4: bringing him food and making food for the other officers, 412 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 4: and just opening her home up to be a place 413 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 4: where they felt welcome. Like the experience of having the 414 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 4: officers who date employed their turn their backs on her 415 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 4: and not believe her was something that it's hard to 416 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 4: understand the magnitude of that betrayal. So having doctor Fried 417 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,879 Speaker 4: be able to talk about institutional betrayal the metaphors she 418 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 4: used about the second concussion in like a brain injury, 419 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 4: the first hit on the head being the betrayal, and 420 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 4: then the second hit of the head being the lack 421 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 4: of being supported or lack of being believed by an 422 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,200 Speaker 4: institution when you report or when you try to say 423 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 4: this is what happened. And I think doctor Fried being 424 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 4: able to contextualize institutional betrayal with real research was really 425 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 4: helpful to illustrating the point of the lost Caroline experienced totally. 426 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 1: And it didn't dawn on me until this season. The 427 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,919 Speaker 1: one main thing that will get you fired as a 428 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:02,719 Speaker 1: police officer is not telling the truth, is lying. And 429 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,399 Speaker 1: we all understand like misconduct and excessive force and things 430 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:11,400 Speaker 1: like that, but the standard like that's there. 431 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:15,880 Speaker 2: Is no you get caught lying, you're done. 432 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: That was something that was a new concept for me, 433 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: and I really think that it was an important exploration 434 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:29,679 Speaker 1: this season of why truth is important, why truth is 435 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 1: important in our justice system, and how that works, because 436 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 1: I don't think as a society is just citizens of 437 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 1: your community, you think about the importance of truthfulness when 438 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 1: it comes to law enforcement is so important something you 439 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 1: just kind of take for granted. You see someone in 440 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 1: a uniform, you assume that they're a respectful person, a 441 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 1: truthful person. But when you really pressure tests and second guess, 442 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 1: is that person capable of lying to me? And what 443 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,160 Speaker 1: does that mean for my basic civil liberties? I think 444 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,159 Speaker 1: that it just makes you sit with those questions that 445 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 1: I think are really important for our society today. 446 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 6: I think it's worth. 447 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 7: Noting that Joel got in trouble for lying to his 448 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:15,199 Speaker 7: own department, to other police officers, not for lying to 449 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:16,120 Speaker 7: anybody else. 450 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,120 Speaker 6: He didn't. I mean, he can lie to people out 451 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 6: in public. He can. 452 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 7: Police officers notoriously are able to lie to the suspects 453 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 7: and the people they're interrogating. 454 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really good point, Tanner. 455 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:34,440 Speaker 4: I want to say with that too, the internal affairs tape, 456 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 4: like we've said before this is we know this is 457 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,440 Speaker 4: not the most egregious example of Joel's case is not 458 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 4: the most egregious example of police misconduct, but having an 459 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 4: internal affairs proceeding with all this tape. One of the 460 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,440 Speaker 4: reasons it's so valuable is because these things are often 461 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:56,360 Speaker 4: happening extraditiously, even if someone could be charged with a crime. Instead, 462 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 4: what happens is the internal affairs process, and so it's 463 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 4: kind of it's almost like the military court systemily, so 464 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 4: like a military trial, like what is happening inside when 465 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 4: something goes wrong, and that is not something we see 466 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 4: because it's not often brought to court unless it's the 467 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 4: most egregious examples. 468 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 1: Carrie, We've unpacked a lot of this season, but I'm curious, 469 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 1: I don't know if we've talked about this yet. What 470 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 1: was it like for you to build a relationship with Caroline, 471 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 1: especially since she had gotten so comfortable with Mo was 472 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 1: something that this season we had never encountered before in 473 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 1: previous seasons. 474 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 2: So I'm just curious, what was that like for you? 475 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,959 Speaker 3: A challenge? Yeah, I think one of the things that 476 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 3: helped was I kind of acknowledged it from the gate, 477 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 3: So when we were out in Colorado and she's like, 478 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 3: I love you, but you're not MO. I was like, 479 00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 3: and I said no, no, And you know, she brings 480 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 3: a set to the table, but I'm like, I'm like 481 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 3: a fungus. I will grow on you. And that's what 482 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 3: I think happened, honestly, because you know, when you pour 483 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 3: your guts out to somebody, and sometimes I think it 484 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 3: really is easier with a total stranger. When somebody doesn't 485 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 3: know all the players, they don't know your family, you 486 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 3: can tell them everything. But she had just done that, 487 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 3: So me walking into the picture after that was like, 488 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 3: you know, having said that, she said it like in 489 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 3: a cheeky way, and I think we over time established 490 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 3: trust and I would get funny little tidbits or she'd 491 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 3: have a thought and text me, and that's when I 492 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 3: know we've kind of rounded that corner. One thing that 493 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 3: we do as a team we go out wherever they live, Utah, Colorado, wherever, 494 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 3: and we spend real time. We have meals together, we 495 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 3: meet family and friends, and I think that has a 496 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 3: lot to do with how we're able to build rapport 497 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 3: because you know, we're not in a thirty minute zoom 498 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 3: call we're together for hours, and people can get a 499 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 3: better idea of who you are, what your goals are, 500 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 3: and how you work. So I think that that helped, 501 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 3: but she did set a high bar for me to 502 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 3: jump over. 503 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 4: I have to say, well, you know, when we first 504 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 4: did that, when I first did the interview with Caroline, 505 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 4: we didn't know that it would become season four. We 506 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 4: thought it would be for the weekly series. And so 507 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 4: once we've got this tape from the police department and 508 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 4: decided this is a bigger story and got season four 509 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 4: greenlet as Caroline story. It was also important for me 510 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 4: to really take a step back and hand do an 511 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 4: official pass off and says, going to be your producer now, 512 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 4: knowing that you were going to be there in person 513 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 4: with Andrea, meeting her in her home, and that that 514 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 4: relationship would grow over time and deepen in a way 515 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 4: that I would never had access to because you're there 516 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 4: in person in her life, and like, it was important 517 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 4: for me to officially kind of transition it off so 518 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 4: that there weren't two I wasn't a shadow producer where 519 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 4: she's calling me also and telling me about something, and 520 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 4: then I have to tell you she told me something. 521 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 3: I was like, I've had that happen. I know exactly 522 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 3: what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah, it could be. I 523 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 3: mean this is like really behind the curtains, like inside baseball, 524 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 3: but this is what happens. I mean, you have a 525 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 3: whole team working on a story and you develop like 526 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 3: real feelings for people. I still hear from some of 527 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 3: the women we worked with. These are continuing relationships, which 528 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 3: which is why one of the reasons I like being 529 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 3: here because we're we're a little bit more invested. 530 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 1: And speak to that investment when you're dealing with working 531 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 1: on something so intense and heavy, that has real impact, 532 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 1: that can be hard to deal with day in and 533 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: day out for six months, eight months, nine months a year. 534 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: I'm curious for all of you, what boundaries or emotional 535 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 1: scaffolding do you guys have to help get through some 536 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,719 Speaker 1: of the hard days when you're hearing stuff that are 537 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 1: really intense. 538 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 10: I know, for me, I. 539 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 1: Work out, I do weightlifting, and that's a huge way 540 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 1: of me like kind of processing the day before. So 541 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 1: I'm curious for you guys, like, how do you man 542 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: because you feel the stress, you can feel that sadness, 543 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 1: and I can stay. 544 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 3: With you I'm really good at compartmentalizing that stuff. There 545 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 3: have been a few occasions where I leave work. I mean, 546 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 3: when I leave work, it means like I leave this 547 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 3: room and go to another room. But I leave work 548 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 3: and it's still you know, I'm thinking about it and 549 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 3: thinking about it, I'm dreaming about it. But those those 550 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 3: instances are few and far between, so I'm able to 551 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 3: kind of like keep things in a place, and when 552 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 3: I can't, you know, break out the KIANTI not as 553 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:25,479 Speaker 3: healthy as your solution, obviously, Tanner, how about you? 554 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 7: For me, luckily, I have some distance from all of this. 555 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 7: I'm getting, you know, the pieces of the interview that 556 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 7: have already been like looked through by the producers. They've 557 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 7: already picked the best parts, and so I don't have 558 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 7: to hear maybe the worst elements as well. Shows where 559 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 7: you're talking about see Sam, or you're talking about gruesome crimes, 560 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 7: I would say, I don't think I handle it very 561 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 7: well in the sense that I'm like, everything's fine. But 562 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 7: you know, I worked on a true crime show where 563 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 7: I had to start some anxiety medication because I was 564 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:12,480 Speaker 7: just like getting too paranoid about you know, like my 565 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:17,319 Speaker 7: own safety. You hear stories sometimes and things happen to 566 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 7: people and you can't help but extrapolate that to like, well, 567 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 7: could somebody do that to me? 568 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:22,359 Speaker 3: Yeah? 569 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,400 Speaker 2: I had that on there and gone, yeah. 570 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,279 Speaker 7: It's terrifying, especially when there's so much mystery around, like 571 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:34,440 Speaker 7: what happened to a personally? It really opens up the 572 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:39,319 Speaker 7: floodgates of your mind to you know, catastrophize. 573 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 2: I do bring some of my betrayal stuff home with me. 574 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,360 Speaker 1: I mean, Caroline was asking this about when we were 575 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:49,759 Speaker 1: in Colorado Springs, when we were meeting with her and Suzanne. 576 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:51,719 Speaker 2: They because I had recently. 577 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 1: Got engaged, and they were like, does any of this 578 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,720 Speaker 1: effect how you feel about marriage and relationships? And I 579 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,880 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna lie, like there are moments where I'm 580 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,840 Speaker 1: I'm really tough, and even it's any how I approach 581 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,880 Speaker 1: finances and like really big decisions about bringing fully together 582 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 1: are is impacted by these stories that I've worked on 583 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 1: because I focus on people who are dealing with the 584 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:21,239 Speaker 1: aftermath of relationship falling apart, and so I give a 585 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 1: lot of credit to my fiance. It's hard, so that 586 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,239 Speaker 1: stuff I think I definitely I'm not necessarily conscious of, 587 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,239 Speaker 1: but I'm definitely it comes out. 588 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 5: It's also so interesting, you know, because we're always kind 589 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 5: of dealing with the big story on the limited run 590 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,280 Speaker 5: and then dealing with many stories at once on Betrayal Weekly, 591 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:47,880 Speaker 5: and you never really know what is going to really 592 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,360 Speaker 5: hit for you. I mean, you know, we were working 593 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 5: on a Betrayal Weekly episode just a few weeks ago, 594 00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 5: where you know, I think all of us had this 595 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 5: moment of Wow, this is something that's really physically violent 596 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:07,279 Speaker 5: and is hitting us in really different ways. I feel 597 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,400 Speaker 5: like I often get the question from friends of mine 598 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 5: of like, are you depressed all the time from all 599 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,440 Speaker 5: this material? And I think one thing that's been really 600 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 5: helpful for me is just centering a deep sense of gratitude. 601 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:28,520 Speaker 5: It is so remarkable that every single day, each of 602 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,880 Speaker 5: us are talking to people who have been through some 603 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,200 Speaker 5: of the hardest things that people can to ever go through, 604 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,759 Speaker 5: and they are not only coming out on the other 605 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,880 Speaker 5: side of it for themselves, but they are making the 606 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,760 Speaker 5: choice to help other people. And to be a part 607 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:50,680 Speaker 5: of helping those people help other people is a huge 608 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:52,400 Speaker 5: honor and I think. 609 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,399 Speaker 11: Makes our work feel a. 610 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:56,480 Speaker 10: Lot less heavy to me. 611 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, for me, there's really two different emotional experiences, 612 00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:04,759 Speaker 4: and the one that's the most difficult is the interview. 613 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 4: When I'm in an interview with someone, I really am 614 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 4: feeling their emotions with them, and sometimes I'm crying with them, 615 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,719 Speaker 4: and you know that that's a really emotional experience that 616 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,279 Speaker 4: I like have to recover from and like take care 617 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:21,440 Speaker 4: of myself afterwards. But after that happens, you know, when 618 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:25,360 Speaker 4: we say goodbye, almost always they're thanking me for listening, 619 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,759 Speaker 4: and they're saying how it feels good to be able 620 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,320 Speaker 4: to be heard and believed and to tell their story 621 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:36,400 Speaker 4: in one sitting, and so that I leave ultimately feeling 622 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 4: positively about the interaction that we've had, even though they've 623 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 4: told me about some of the worst things they've ever experienced. 624 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:48,360 Speaker 4: And then it's that gratitude that comes with the continued 625 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,480 Speaker 4: interaction with them as they're with the storytellers, as they're 626 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:56,319 Speaker 4: screening the episodes, as we're following up, that they're so 627 00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:58,759 Speaker 4: proud to have shared their story and happy to have 628 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 4: shared their story. I'm able to focus on that feeling 629 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 4: and not the feeling or the experience of the worst 630 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:09,759 Speaker 4: part of their story. But yeah, the larger point is 631 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,879 Speaker 4: that like the interview, I feel one way, and then 632 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,800 Speaker 4: once I'm seeing it in a script, I feel a 633 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 4: little more clinical about it. It's a little bit it's removed. 634 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:20,919 Speaker 4: It's like, Okay, this is an episode now, and I'm 635 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 4: able to separate, compartmentalize those two experiences out and think 636 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,840 Speaker 4: about it from the listener's experience when making the episode 637 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:31,880 Speaker 4: as opposed to the interpersonal experience I'm having in the interview. 638 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 2: I have a question for you, Oh you do. 639 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,640 Speaker 4: I was going to ask you Drey about how this 640 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,359 Speaker 4: because this season is different in a few ways from 641 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 4: the other seasons we've worked on. One of the biggest 642 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 4: differences is that the person who was doing the betraying 643 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:54,160 Speaker 4: was never convicted of a crime. So I'm wondering about 644 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:58,880 Speaker 4: your experience reporting this as well, and how do you 645 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,920 Speaker 4: think about this one differently from previous seasons you've worked on. 646 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, because he wasn't convicted of a crime, 647 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:07,960 Speaker 1: we needed to see what was in the public domain 648 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:12,560 Speaker 1: and what was out there, and so that's really what started. 649 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 2: The hunt for the IA files. 650 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 1: And so once we got all of that reporting and 651 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,400 Speaker 1: understood we have all of these files and this is 652 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,399 Speaker 1: really what's underneath it was kind of like any other 653 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,719 Speaker 1: season because there was so much documentation, so much reporting, 654 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:31,839 Speaker 1: like the investigation files were there, and this story I 655 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 1: feel like kind of met me at the right time, 656 00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:38,960 Speaker 1: because I think we all kind of are in a 657 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,319 Speaker 1: place in time where like what is truth and what 658 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:44,960 Speaker 1: does the truth mean to you? And I think that 659 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:51,120 Speaker 1: this season really really explores that. Well, before we wrap up, 660 00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:53,520 Speaker 1: we have this is not the end of Betrial. 661 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:54,920 Speaker 2: We have a lot of news. 662 00:39:55,360 --> 00:40:01,520 Speaker 1: So mo obviously you produce the always on that show's 663 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,400 Speaker 1: coming back. You want to tell the audience when to 664 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,160 Speaker 1: expect to hear the first episode. 665 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:12,040 Speaker 4: Yes, our first episode of season two of Betrayal Weekly 666 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:18,839 Speaker 4: comes out Thursday, August seventh, so market calendars subscribe, and 667 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,600 Speaker 4: we are going to be starting with some episodes, some 668 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:26,440 Speaker 4: incredible episodes, some stories unlike anything. 669 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:26,880 Speaker 2: I've ever heard. 670 00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:33,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, we really found some storytellers who are able to 671 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:39,360 Speaker 4: reflect on what they've been through and have overcome things unimaginable. 672 00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:43,640 Speaker 4: So it's been a really rewarding season to start working on. 673 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:48,640 Speaker 4: We're about six episodes in to our production, so we're 674 00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,919 Speaker 4: really excited to start sharing these episodes with y'all in. 675 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:56,920 Speaker 1: August, and season five is right around the corner, Caitlin, 676 00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 1: you are producing the season, you want to give a 677 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:04,120 Speaker 1: little bit of a teaser and when we should expect 678 00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:06,719 Speaker 1: that to launch, Yeah, for sure. 679 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:12,120 Speaker 5: So season five is coming out mid January, and it's 680 00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:17,560 Speaker 5: a story about what happens when the person who is 681 00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 5: caring for you turns out to be the one causing 682 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:27,439 Speaker 5: you to be suffering. And it's also a story about 683 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:31,799 Speaker 5: what happens when the law isn't on your side. And 684 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:36,480 Speaker 5: I think it's very relevant to a lot of global 685 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,880 Speaker 5: stories that are going on right now, and it's coming 686 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:44,280 Speaker 5: directly from many stories that we've been hearing from listeners 687 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:45,040 Speaker 5: in our inbox. 688 00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:47,120 Speaker 10: So I think it'll be a very special season. 689 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:49,960 Speaker 1: Well, I have to say I'm really proud of everyone 690 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,440 Speaker 1: and their work this season, and thanks for all of 691 00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:56,279 Speaker 1: your hard work. It's been kind of a race to 692 00:41:56,320 --> 00:42:01,120 Speaker 1: the finish line. So congrats to everyone, and congrats to 693 00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:04,000 Speaker 1: Matt who is another editor on the show who is 694 00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:07,320 Speaker 1: not here today, but thank you so much, and I've 695 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:09,840 Speaker 1: loved every second of working on this season with you guys. 696 00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:14,120 Speaker 10: Thank you for. 697 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:15,680 Speaker 2: Listening to Betrayal season four. 698 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:17,960 Speaker 1: If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, 699 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:21,560 Speaker 1: email us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal 700 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:23,960 Speaker 1: Pod at gmail dot com. 701 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:25,080 Speaker 2: Also, please be sure. 702 00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,719 Speaker 1: To follow us at Glass Podcasts on Instagram for all 703 00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 1: Betrayal content, news and updates. One way to support the 704 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,040 Speaker 1: series is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. 705 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:35,040 Speaker 10: Please rate and. 706 00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:39,000 Speaker 1: Review Betrayal five star reviews help us know you appreciate. 707 00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:39,080 Speaker 2: What we do. 708 00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:42,840 Speaker 1: Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of 709 00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:46,880 Speaker 1: Glass Entertainment Group and partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show 710 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:50,520 Speaker 1: is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason. Betrayal 711 00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,719 Speaker 1: is hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and 712 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:58,040 Speaker 1: produced by Kerrie Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our 713 00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:02,400 Speaker 1: associate producers are Kaitlyn Golden and Kristen Mercury. Our iHeart 714 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:06,200 Speaker 1: team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krincheck. Story editing by 715 00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:10,400 Speaker 1: Monique Laboard, Audio editing by mattel Vecchio and Tanner Robbins 716 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:14,120 Speaker 1: and mixed by mattel Vecchio and special thanks to Caroline 717 00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:17,720 Speaker 1: and her family. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines. 718 00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:22,040 Speaker 1: Music library provided by mid Music and for more podcasts 719 00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:25,760 Speaker 1: from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 720 00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:26,879 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.